Going Deep with Chad and JT - EP 409 - JESSE MICHELS

Episode Date: October 9, 2025

Today we’re joined by Jesse Michels, host of American Alchemy. A show dedicated to exploring the edges of what we think we know from the mysteries of outer space to the uncharted depths of our oceans, Jesse dives into the growing evidence that we may not be alone. We talk about UFOs spotted near naval bases, the theory that alien craft might be hiding on the ocean floor. We also dive into whistleblowers stepping forward to share what they’ve seen and the real risks they face when going against powerful institutions. We wanted to have this conversation to learn more about some of the wildest stories of our existence.  More About Jesse Here: https://www.jessemichelsmedia.com/ We are live streaming a Fully unedited version of the pod on Twitch, if you want to chat with us while we're recording, follow here: https://www.twitch.tv/chadandjtgodeep Grab some dank merch here:https://shop.chadandjt.com/ Come see us on Tour! Get your tix - http://www.chadandjt.com TEXT OR CALL the hotline with your issue or question: 323-418-2019(Start with where you're from and name for best possible advice) Check out the reddit for some dank convo: https://www.reddit.com/r/ChadGoesDeep/ Thanks to our Sponsors:Brotege: The Best Skincare products for bros - get started today for just 10$ Visit https://www.brotege.com/deep HomeChef: The Best Meal Kits! Go to https://www.homechef.com/godeep and get 50% off your first box + free dessert. Hims: The Best Hair Loss solutions for men. Go to https://www.hims.com/godeep and get started today with an online consult with a professional. HIGHLAND STYLE CO: The Best Hair products for healthy hair - Go to https://www.highland.style/godeep or use code deep at checkout and get 20% off today!   PRODUCTION & EDITS BY: Jake Rohret

Is it Is it Michael's your last name? It's Michael's your last name? Okay, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's the being of my existence. Is it French in origin? No, it's, I wish it were French. French. It's, it's, uh, it's like Russian, Eastern European. And it was like Mikhailov or

Mikhailov or something. And then they changed it on Ellis Island. So, yeah. And they didn't add the A. They should have had, they're going to change it. Yeah. What percentage of names do you think were improved by Ellis Island? Oh, man. Probably a lot of them. A lot. Actually, my mom's just not working. My mom's side was, yeah, yeah, you need an upgrade. My mom's side was a Weintchel blit. And now it's white. Wow. Is it really?

It's a big slurs. There's not much connective tissue there. No, not at all. Not at all. Erase the past. Have you ever thought about going by Michelle? That'd be cool. Yeah.

A little Sam Michelle. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so we're here, guys, with Jesse Michaels. Yes. And what would you call your expertise or your pursuits? You know, I don't know. I think it's kind of weird to say you're like a ufologist, so I'm not going to say that.

I'm interested in, I'd say very broadly, kind of the nature of reality. Like, what's going on here? Yeah, you take it in that direction. So I only recently got familiar with your work, so I tried to do a deep dive. But it does seem like aliens and extraterrestrials and stuff. That's just more of like a keyhole for you to get into the larger, like, fabric of what makes us alive and what makes the universe tick. Yeah, YouTube doesn't do very well with nuance. So you have to kind of, you know, what's your, what's your kind of schick?

and I think UFOs are extremely interesting, but I think they're kind of like the tip of the spear on some deeper, like, you know, maybe an expanded worldview around, like, what's happening in reality. And were you always into that stuff, like, growing up? You know, not really. Maybe a little bit, like, my dad's a psychologist and a self-help author. And he's a pretty prominent psychologist, right?

Yeah, he did some research. Yeah, he's reasonably well-known and sees a bunch of entertainment people and, like, he has this kind of trippy, like, philosophy and it's called the tools, and it, like, empowers people with these techniques they can use or whatever. But a lot of it is based on, like, Jungian thought. So Carl Jung and this other guy, Rudolf Steiner,

this Austrian philosopher, both of whom are, like, kind of trippy, if you, you know, on the scale of, like, conventional to trippy as far as philosophers go. So maybe that, like, opened my worldviews somewhat, but I wasn't really into, like, UFOs, per se, until five, six years ago, maybe. Oh, interesting. What was the spark that got you into it?

I met, like, three, so I was working actually at a family office out here, and part of the role was, like, looping in interesting thinkers, and we just, like, explore, like, crazy ideas together, and I'd, like, learn about a lot about, like, a lot of different subjects. and then I thought UFOs would be a joke I thought I'd be like oh like we'll meet like a couple of UFO people and like remember that time we met with the UFO people and I brought in this guy Hal put off who's like this kind of gray beard like CIA NSA

like hardcore scientist and then this other guy Gary Nolan who's this that's the Stanford guy Stanford guy exactly and he's like a Nobel nominee most years and he's a tenured professor and he's just super smart guy and I was like throwing the kitchen sink of like questions that you'd have to like initially try to debunk them and I was like these guys are actually like pretty

legit and smart and they're like very serious I didn't sense like any cynicism like I was like these guys are very earnestly into these topics and that like took me down the rabbit hole of like okay if you're like five or 10 percent initially that you know maybe there's something out there as soon as that goes to like 20 or 30 percent you're like I should just be spending a lot more time on this, at least for me. I'm like, I just find it so fascinating. And one thing you mentioned about Nolan is he actually has materials that he considers from extraterrestrials? Yeah. He doesn't know if it's from extraterrestrials, but the fact pattern is bizarre. So I think one was like an Ubatuba, Brazil, this like fishermen on a

beach saw this thing explode in the sky after it was flying, making weird right angle turns or whatever, flashing, you know, super bright. And this like molten material came out. That guy mailed the material to this guy, Jacques Valet, who's known as this kind of French godfather of UFO research. He's a legend. He is a legend. And if you've ever seen Close Encounters of the Third Kind, Francois François Truffaut plays his characters, who was kind of written in by Steven Spielberg, and he, like, consulted on the movie.

And his, like, address is public for everybody to see. So this fisherman somehow got the materials to him, and he now uses Gary, because he lives in the Bay Area, he uses Gary to do, like, materials testing on the actual materials. And so they found that it had isotope ratios that, like, don't naturally occur on Earth or aren't naturally found in asteroids. And so, like, it's pretty wild. And so what does that mean? I don't know.

Did they have any idea what the practical applications could be for them? Uh, no. They're not sure about that one in particular. There's one that they got, which was magnesium. Bismuth. And so this was another one that I think was found by a guy who claimed that he got these pieces because his father was involved in the Roswell cleanup. So I'm sure a lot of the audience is very familiar with Roswell. You know, kind of archetypal UFO crash, 1947 in New Mexico. But that one was made out of magnesium bismith. And in these like kind of fringy anti-gravity

experiments that was going on in like the 50s and 60s, often conducted by this guy named Townsendez and brown. TTV, that's your boy. That's my boy. I love Tadowns and Brown. Exactly. I'm impressed by all the stuff you guys know. But yeah, like his experiments involve these high K-dialelectric materials, one of which

is bismuth. So it's like kind of wild that like Gary has this magnesium bismuth that he's claiming maybe came from the Roswell crash. And then if you have this like high K dielectric, which means like the material can store a lot of electromagnetic charge and discharge it very fast, then you get greater thrust. in the Brown experiment. So it's like you have these like terrestrial like experiments going on like on earth by these like fringy scientists around anti-gravity and it causes more thrust in this

anti-gravity experiment and that's also being found at Roswell. It's just so strange. What got you into Thomas Townsend Brown? Because if you read his Wikipedia page, it feels like he just repeatedly was coming up against people who were undermining him or saying the stuff didn't work or was kind of Hocum. And so what made you believe that he's really this, like, brilliant guy that we should be kind of following? For sure. I also thought he was a joke. And I read this book. There's a great book by this British aviation journalist named Nick Cook. And he wrote a book called

The Hunt for Zero Point. And it's like the history of aerospace's research into anti-gravity. And the beginning starts with Thomas. And his whole thing is like, this guy's like a very serious aerospace journalist. He covered like the SR 71, the U2, the B2. He knows everything about all of these planes. He's not at all like woo. I mean, now he's a little more woo-woo after having gone through that process, but he's pretty like hardheaded on this stuff. And he comes out of the book being like there's a lot of smoke but not fire around like them actually discovering anti-gravity. So like leave it up to the reader's kind of interpretation as to what actually might have happened. The first part of that book is dedicated to Thomas Townsend Brown. And he's like,

this guy like claims to have gotten all these results and he's hired by Lockheed and Northrop and all these companies. And he keeps hopping around. And he's, It's just strange because every time he gets a result, he gets kind of thwarted by the establishment. And I don't really know what happened with him. And then he's involved in the Philadelphia. I don't know if you guys have heard of the Philadelphia experiment. It's this really famous experiment. There's a movie made off of it that was just horrible.

And like, I think it was like 2008, 2009. But it's about a ship in Norfolk, Virginia that gets zapped and teleported to Philadelphia. And he was involved in that. And so, like, Nick, like, Cook is like, I don't know about this guy. Like, it seems like he was involved in a lot of weird shit. And, like, you know, there's a lot of lore around him, but I don't know if this is real. And so that was my, like, bias after reading that book. And then I was in Argentina randomly.

And I was meeting with this professor at University of Chicago, who's an anthropologist, who's super into this topic and doesn't actually do a lot publicly on it, but it's just, like, fascinated by the topic. And Townsend Brown came up. And he was like, you know, there's a biography of Townsend Brown. And it's like takes him way more seriously than the Nick Cook book. And it actually shows how he was spreading disinfo around his own work because this is like kind of Cold War era's, you know, secrecy vis-a-vis the Soviets and stuff.

And he was like making his stuff sound a lot more quacky than it actually was. And like there's all this evidence from that book that he made all these breakthroughs. There's like a deathbed confession of this French intelligence officer who was like witnessing one of the experiments. And he's like, the experiments worked. And there's all this written testimony and stuff. And so as soon as he said that, I was like, fuck, I got to read this book. And so the idea about anti-gravity is that it could actually explain why when people see these alien spacecraft, they're moving so fast. And it's because it works on some kind of opposite charge that pulls the craft from one point to the next.

Yeah, there are a lot of different theories as to how it works. and I have no fucking clue ultimately how it works, but I do think the brown thing is like a very good model possibly for how it works because like if you think about it like a like SpaceX is like the paradigm of like modern spaceflight, like most of the mass of that rocket is just the fuel tank. And that's just to get it up to like low Earth orbit. So like their new, you know, rocket is the is called Starship. And it's 120 to 200 tons.

And so it's like the amount of space, like mass that that one craft takes up in space. Yeah, it's like 400 feet tall and it's all stainless steel, right? Yeah, it's, it's absolutely insane. And like it's, and there's so much, it's so much just like fuel in there. And I think it's like one to 200 starlings can fit in there or something. I think each Starlink satellite might be, maybe it's like two. I don't want to speak out of turn, but like maybe like maybe like a hundred kilograms each. So yeah, I don't know.

It's like, it's a lot of Starlink. that you can fit in there. But just for like reference, one of those goes up to low Earth orbit and burns nine-tenths of its fuel tank. It's then floating around low Earth orbit. It's like orbiting the Earth with like one-tenth left. And then another one goes up. It burns nine-tenths. It does butt-to-but refueling with the first. You get two tenths. So that's just to get like a single like a starship that has a full tank so that it can go to the moon. So that's how, like, like inefficient modern rocketry is. So if you're thinking about like these UFOs that are like seemingly traversing extremely long distances and seem to have sort of endless power, they have to

be doing some sort of like gravity modification or literally like space time warping, like you can't really be traveling like just with chemical combustion over super long distances and have it be like at all fuel efficient or make any sense. Which is why like I think SpaceX is a really cool company but like the idea that we're going to go interstellar with this sort of technology is kind of a sci-op to like get people to like work there and be really pumped but it's not going to work oh interesting yeah so so anti-gravity it's kind of a uh you're manipulating it's because i remember um hearing like on a rogan episode or something that that you know the people who were doing the reverse engineering at area 51 or wherever it is that it's like a they tested out

I don't, it's Bob Lazar, what's your take on Bob Lazar? You know, I don't know. I think, I think it's really hard to poke holes in, actually. Yeah. And like, I think he believes he went through what he went through. I really believe that. And then for, yeah, for those people who don't know it, Bob Lazar is a guy who was famously in like the late 80s, early 90s,

came out and said that he was working at Area 51 and he was doing reverse engineering on anti-gravity aircraft. on UFOs. UFOs, yeah. Did he also say that the government was working in cahoots with the aliens? That's kind of the implication of his story, because he says that he sees an alien at one point, and he doesn't say, I mean, he is under a chain of command of humans,

but like the implication of the story is almost like these were crafts that were like being co-owned or managed by the aliens themselves or something. Right. And it's a really crazy story. yeah, he claims he met Edward Teller. Edward Teller is like the, you know, father of the hydrogen bomb, like a very real, you know, mid-century scientist a la Oppenheimer, you know, fame. And Lazar said that he met him at some, like, event while he was working at Los Alamos.

And Edward Teller was giving a talk. And he was on the front page of the newspaper in Los Alamos because he had put a ramjet, which is like, you know, one of these like supersonic. jets or whatever on the back of I think a Honda or a Corvette or something there's a video of this I've seen that yeah it's so crazy and he's like kind of a badass scientist in his own right like he does he owns a company called the United Nuclear there you go it's so crazy what's up guys welcome to the podcast guys we have an epic episode for you today we're talking aliens but first we are on tour the tour is chugging along it's been a blast I hope

to see you all at some shows. We've got Austin this Friday, Plano on Saturday, and then my next one-man show is at Dynasty Typewriter on October 17th. There's a live stream option there too. Pretty cool. Then we've got Nashville, October 21st, Columbus, October 22nd, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Pottstown, PA, Philadelphia, Santa Cruz, and Albuquerque in January.

They're moving the Dallas and Fort Worth dates because it's too close to Plano so stay tuned for those and I think we're going to get some alternative dates coming in there so keep your eyes peeled for that get your tickets at chatjit.com guys Brodege is giving away

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subscriber to receive free dessert. So we're talking about Bob Lazar. So you're wishy-washy on like how valid his kind of

claims are? I'm kind of 50-50 on it. I think he seems like a really high integrity guy who definitely believes

that he went through what he went through. So I don't think he's lying at all. And then, yeah, I don't know

what he worked. I mean, it's like if he worked on something was it anti-gravity and was the was it like human anti-gravity and the cover was UFOs which sounds kind of quacky and it's stigmatizing and if you were to tell

that to like a Soviet spy it would be like a way to like track them or whatever so there's like a reason to maybe do that but I don't know a lot of the details imply that like the thing was actually alien like this sort of element 115 reactor and he was like I thought it was just

an anti-gravity craft and then he went in and he saw the jump seats inside of the UFO were like for these little three to four foot humanoid ostensibly. He's like, who would ever use this? And it was like no control panels. So there was some sort of mental connection, which obviously doesn't comport with like anything we could build.

And he said like the design too is so otherworldly. Like it like it was just, it was just the way it was constructed. I can't remember how he described it, but it was almost like he saw it and it's like you just see it right away. You're like that's not human. Yeah. Yeah. And he said it would charge up and be translucent.

and like all these details where you're like if any of that's true you know and he even said he saw it fly and he was like underneath it at some point so i don't know it's tough he's also he was hanging out with a guy named john lear at the time whose father was actually a close confidant of towns and brown so i know it's like webs of people but um he was known as the um his father created the first business jet um airliner so basically the first private jet called the lear jet and john lear was known for like spreading a lot of like fake conspiracies at the time and it was like kind of nuts he said there was like a soul catcher on the moon and that like harvested people's souls he wrote this uh whole book with this guy William cooper who wrote a book called behold the pale horse which is like the mother of all conspirators like lizards are running the government so um you know it was that guy on that stuff for sure they're right i mean no i don't know i don't think so i don't i think i i land that like are there's

something going on there that's like not what it seems like it feels like it's all some sort of weird theater or something as to like like an allegory of the cave kind of thing i think we're in something like that yeah and i think there are probably some people or entities outside of the cave and what are we in contact with those people who are outside of it or are they fully removed from our everyday existence i don't know i have no idea i'm definitely in the cave myself so if you were do you ever feel motivated to pursue your way out of the cave for sure yeah so how would you go about doing that you know like the plato way of doing it would be like contemplating virtue and truth like all the time which is like kind of an at home exercise yeah yeah kind of an at home exercise like with people like he had the symposium which was like this you know right a group of like other philosophers and they would do that together and there's just word called I think it's parapetetic which it means like walking and learning and they would like kind of walk and learn and ask questions and stuff and that was their way to you know ascend out of the Oh, so you're kind of doing it then.

You know, I think that's a very nice thing for you to say. Sure. But yeah, that would be the aspirational version of what I'm doing, for sure. And then who, in your estimation, are the most high integrity people around extraterrestrials in what they've seen? Yeah, that's a great question. As far as like, experiencers or researchers? Experiencers. There's this guy named Mario Woods, who I love.

He's just like salt of the earth, coolest guy ever. And he is, he's 70 years old, but he like, I don't know, somehow he looks like he's like 45. He doesn't have like a gray hair. And he's like, he's like really jacked. And he was at Ellsworth Air Force Base in 1977 in South Dakota. And he saw like this, what looked like a, he thought it was like a B-52, you know, bomber or whatever outside the base. And it like flashed like towards him or whatever. And he was like, oh, that's kind of weird. And it was like flying around. he like went back inside and then all of a sudden like the whole base went on alert like something had like there was some incursion in their airspace and he freaked out he like walked outside and he like gotten to a car with his like I think it was like his there was like some sort of buddy system or whatever like his partner this guy named Michael Johnson and they started driving and these four alien that this crap they see like like this Walmart-sized craft is the way he describes it.

Four alien beings come out of it. They start approaching the car. They're saying, do not fear, which he hears over and over and over again. And he's in this, like, kind of paralyzed state. And then he wakes up nine miles from the base. And it's like the next morning. And he, like, blacks out. And then he does a hypnotic regression, which is a way to detract against people's experiences.

But if you think of any traumatic experience, it's the way you would react to any traumatic experience. So what comes out of the hypnotic regression, you can take it as seriously as you want, is like he was in this craft. And it was like this beehive buzzing full of like little gray aliens. And he was like incised and like put like this like little implant was maybe put in him or whatever. And he has scars on his body.

Oh really? Yeah. I'm like, where did those come from? Yeah. He has these like three little dots. Yeah. But he just, he remembers every little detail of what happened to him.

And I sense. zero like he's the most sincere person you'd ever meet and then the other reason I like his case is because he comes from a long line of like when you think about science it needs to be repeatable for you to like take it seriously like if one weird anomalous thing

happens you're like that I don't know if that's real right like that's why it needs to like happen over and over again and so like in his case it was like this nuclear case like I was with Air Force Base housed all these like ICBM nuclear weapons and his job was actually

He was a missile security officer. And so he comes from like a lineage of ICBM security personnel radar operators, specifically on nuclear bases across the U.S., where these UFOs show up. So that, to me, lends more credibility to. Whenever I hear like a UFO showed up, I'm like, was there like a nuclear thing around it? And if there was, I'm like, oh, like maybe I should take it a little more seriously, because that does seem like this recurring pattern. Yeah, because that's a lot of people say that,

in a lot of instances where they've seen UFOs, it's been around nuclear missile silos. And there are also reports, and I love to hear your take on these, but that, like, UFOs have come and they've shut down nuclear missile, like nuclear missile silos or whatever.

They've, like, just rendered them, you know, they take away the power or whatever it is, so that people can't use them. And a lot of people say that they think that aliens are trying to, like, prevent us from, destroying ourselves. Yeah, a lot of people take that away. I don't know.

But yeah, there's another case in 67, this guy, Bob Salas, and he was actually like, there was like, it was like Oscar launch facility. He was like the, he was in charge of that facility and it was underground. And he was in charge of 10 operational missiles. And all 10 of them went down and were rendered like non-operational. So he couldn't theoretically even launch them if there was some like red alert vis-a-vis like, you know, the Soviets or whatever.

And nobody had any explanation. And there were topside guards calling down to him being like there's this weird red object flying around the base making right angle turns and freaking out. And then there's this targeting officer named Bob Jameson who was also debriefed around the same incident. I think this was March 24th, 1967. And he was debriefed that like UFOs were involved in this shutdown. Boeing was hired to do tests to see what could even shut down these sorts of missiles because they're obviously all sorts of safeguards as far as like keeping the power up. Yeah. So yeah, that's another like really crazy case and the Wall Street Journal just tried to kind of discredit him by saying that they wheeled, there was this like experimental EMP that was wheeled up to the gates of Malmstrom facility and it like turned the missiles off.

which is absolutely insane. Like, EMPs were not operational at the time. I mean, they're non-nuclear EMPs. Their EMPs come naturally. They're called electromagnetic pulses and they take out all the electronics

like in the vicinity or whatever. And they would come from nuclear blast. So like atomic detonations in the Marshall Islands or Nevada test site or whatever EMPs could happen. But wheeling this experimental EMP like with people present and like taking down our own nukes makes absolutely no sense.

And then those nukes going back online where, like, you'd fry all the electronics. It's literally impossible. So, like, all these people kind of came at the Wall Street Journal and they were like, what are you talking about? This makes no sense. And then they didn't really have it. You were really fired up about that article recently.

I was fired up. And you thought that they got fed bad information or they were part of the cover up. I think so. Yeah, well, it was all done in conjunction with this guy, Sean Kirkpatrick, who, like, I think maybe now even has, like, an active contract with Oak Ridge and is, like, very in, like, all,

the kind of like nuclear national labs. So like might be part of the legacy program. I think at the age of 17, he won like an award bestowed on him by like Brookhaven National Labs. So he's like as embedded in like kind of the Department of Energy kind of like, you know, a world as like anyone. Wait, so I kind of missed the connection though.

So how does it behoove him to work with the Wall Street dream? He's getting more work out of this somehow? Well, I think there's a lot of Department of Energy. So like Department of Energy governs nuclear. And I think it's like in their best. interest to say there's like nothing here look away interesting yeah yeah it's kind of wild there's also this is really crazy there's a in 2010 so robert hastings wrote this amazing book called UFOs and nukes it's 167 of those cases which is really wild like you read the book and you're

like this is most UFO's books are like so sensationalized and like mushy-brained and kind of quacky and this book is like too meticulously detailed to get through it like it's almost boring because it's so like just the facts um and so he wrote that in 2008 and then in 2010 right after he wrote the book uh there was a shutdown at effie warren nuclear base in wyoming and he like one of his like guys one of his sources this guy uh john mills he was a retired missile technician he like back channeled uh i don't even know if that would be googleable but he uh maybe yeah he he We got to slow down on the Googling, too. The lights are flashing way too much.

He backchanneled with the people at Warren, at Effie Warren Air Force Base, and they were like, this wasn't a random shutdown. Like, there was like a Tick-Tac that was like hovering around the base, and that's what shut down the missiles. And this was written up by, I think, the Atlantic, like the whole shutdown case. And Obama was briefed about the shutdown. And apparently they said it was only an hour-long shutdown, but it was really a 24-hour shutdown.

this is really crazy. If you go to that Atlantic article, which I might actually recommend Googling. Oh, let's go to it. It said, it says like, it's like they live edited it. It says engineering failure and then it's crossed out and then it says, you know it says power failure and then it's crossed out and then it says engineering failure. Because it's like a part that like never fails and like nobody actually believes failed. Like they're claiming failed as part of this shutdown. down. Yeah. But if you back channel, you realize that's actually just attributed to the,

to the UFO. So I know it's probably impossible to summit all of. It's crazy. But do you think by and large, the government keeps us in the dark with respect to UFOs and aliens because they're afraid it would undermine our perceived power in them? Yeah, it's probably a really like good, simple way to put it for sure. I think that's like the main reason. I think it like usurps their, they're like authority. You don't want anything outside of your authority. It's like, um, You know, there was this big scandal around this thing called Havana syndrome where American diplomats were stationed in all sorts of embassies abroad and they were getting migraines and disoriented and like they didn't know, like, their whole like vestibular system was just like kind of messed up and they didn't know like where they were. And they'd come back and they'd be like, this is really serious. And like the U.S. wouldn't know how to treat it.

And they would kind of gaslight them and say it was like mass hysteria or was psychosomatic. And there were even all these like skeptics like journal magazines being like these diplomats. mats are like crazy like it's literally just you know this psychosocial thing and then uh dear spiegel this german publication and 60 minutes just came out with this expose like a year or two ago being like no like the russians are just systematically doing this too like it's like microwave like directed energy and things like targeting and the u.s probably was extremely reluctant to admit that until that 60 minutes article because we had no defense against it and you never want to admit you you like a thing is happening you're outgunned yeah interesting so do you think a lot of it too

is just that the you know the government probably is in possession of non-human technology and maybe biologics but they just don't really understand what's going on and is that kind of I think so and it's always this like crazy black box of like if the Bob Lazar's stuff is real then like they've actually made it farther than I would think because like they know how to like fly this stuff you know that's like pretty wild yeah but you're you're basing you're hinging your conviction as far as their progress off of like three to five anecdotes or whatever maybe it's a little more than that but it's like it's not it's sparse evidence depends on what framework you're choosing to believe in totally yeah and it's like one of those

stories is like a jinga block where like you pull that out and the whole thing falls so i i'm like very like you have to think as far in like probabilities and i'm like 100% that there's like something around our like nuclear and like probably some consciousness relationship as well that's like in the sky that we can't identify and then from there you have to like go down as far as like reverse engineering programs and and then you've also speculated that some of the technology or biologics might have been turned over to defense contractors because they're outside the Freedom of Information Act yeah exactly so um in 1954 uh the atomic energy commission was formed And if you think about, like, if the UFO stuff is real, like, where would you house it secrecy-wise?

Well, you have, like, the Manhattan Project was, like, the last thing that was, like, super secret where I think there's even actually, like, this, like, this, like, the first, one of the first whistleblowers around, like, nuclear stuff was this guy who went to Los Alamos, and he went to Chicago. And I think there's this headline from, like, way back in the day, I don't even know if it's digitized. and he's like there's a town in the middle of the New Mexican desert and you have all these scientists convening there and nobody knows about it because it was like extremely secret and so in 1954 the Atomic Energy Commission comes out and that governs all secrecy when it comes to like just nuclear stuff and the idea is in what a lot of UFO whistleblowers

like this guy David Grush who came out in this kind of bombshell thing and you like him you think he's high integrity I think he's super high integrity yeah I think he's like really like really impressive guy as far as all the other stuff he did in government like not part of any sort of weird right he's got a good resume like a lot of people coming out and backing him is like a high time i've gotten to know him and feel like he's like you know like in the beginning of getting to know him i feel like i like poked in a lot of ways as far as like seeing if he had any sort of like weird agenda and like i just don't i i really like believe in that guy

and there's a lot of people too who say this like David Grush of the whistleblowers is kind of the he's probably given the most information publicly would you say that yeah as an intelligence officer he went farther than a lot of people before him and he was like we've had covert intelligence they are reverse engineering programs that have been going on

for decades yeah like he went in front of Congress in like 2023 he said that we have biologics and we have like non-human technology, which is pretty crazy to say in front of Congress. It's crazy and there's a clip of AOC like going at him and being like, do you have like the addresses? Like where are these being housed? And he goes, I will tell that to you in a skiff.

A skiff is a secure compartmentalized information facility. So he's like, yeah, let's like give me a one-time clearance and I'll tell you right now. Yeah. And so it's this weird, frustrating thing with UFO world where it's like, just get these people in a room to get like, just like, come on. Yeah.

Let's figure this out. but yeah so yeah but yeah the atomic energy commission so like in that act in 1954 it's basically like anything emitting radiological you know alpha gamma beta radiation

like anything is immediately born secret under this act so if you're a random aerospace contractor say you're Lockheed Martin or you know Northrop or whatever and you like find a thing it falls under this thing called restricted data where like it's born secret

It's like there's no need for classification to immediately see. And the rumors are around like UFO materials as they're initially, like when they're found, they're radiological. They're emitting radiation. So it's this kind of cloak and dagger way. And then they show up around, you know, nuclear sites and they probably go down around nuclear sites like Roswell Crash. That was the site of the largest nuclear stockpile in the United States at the time. In 1947, yeah, the 509th atomic bomber squadron, which was run by Curtis Lameh. Yeah, it's really trippy.

It's so trippy that like people think it's like this U.S. Sciop thing, but like that's people when like that's always a point I make and they're like, whoa, like the proverbial thing we know about was like the first, you know, nuclear stockpile. And then there's a town in Japan called Lino, which is next to the Fukushima Prefracture. They're famous for their civilian nuclear grid. And in this town, Vice did a documentary about them three years ago. And all of the townspeople are obsessed with UFOs. And there's a really. Yeah. Interesting. It's crazy. And there's like a mountain like there. It's called Mount Sengon Mori. And there's like a museum at the top of the mountain. It's dedicated to UFOs.

And like there are all these geomagnetic anomalies there. And it's pretty wild. And you've had a lot of thinkers come on your show who think kind of a lot of our thought, a lot of our culture was disseminated by aliens. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just had a guy on named Jason Reza Georgiani that, you know. Was that the guy who was talking about how religion came from?

from aliens and he also posited that like Kant and Descartes made science boring so the religion would be powerful. He's hilarious. He's like one of the smartest dudes I've ever met and like sometimes I do think maybe he speaks a little like like I don't know. So some of the things. Well he's saying so many things that require investigation. Yes, yes. It's kind of a hard to parcel out what to take is just a regular conversation. For sure, for sure. I don't know if what he's saying. I mean, he's saying that Descartes was a. Jesuit spy on behalf of the Vatican and he definitely was fighting in the Prussian army against King Frederick and Queen Elizabeth and they were housing a lot of these like Rosicruciate

like trippier thinkers that were like claiming to commune with like nonhuman intelligence or aliens like there's this guy John D who was like Queen Elizabeth spy master and she was he was doing like a lot of like trippy kind of occult stuff or whatever and so Jason Rosadjani's claim is like Descartes was like like because if you think about what Cartesian dualism and like Descartes philosophy does it's basically like it implies like radical

doubt where like all you all you can have conviction in is that you know I think therefore I am is like you're in your own thoughts or whatever so he's putting limitations on us basically he is and then the Cartesian duality thing is like your mind is very separate from the material world which is this

like objective thing and I think we're at the end of probably like a scientific paradigm, which is like a really crazy thing to say. And maybe I'm wrong. But like if, you know, we need to be more expansive. Well, I think, I think the mind is going to start to play a role. Like, the idea that there's like a hard separation between, uh, what's going on mentally, like inside of you and the world is crazy to me. I think, I think, um, if you say that the whole world is a holograph that ends in like solipsism and like narcissism, like, that doesn't make sense to me either. That makes you alone. But the, where we are now, which is

like, you're a happy accident of consciousness because, like, you're just meat that got animated for a little bit. You're meat space, exactly. Like, that's extremely nihilistic, especially with AI converging on all these, like, skills that humans have. I do think there's something exceptional about the human mind. And if you don't believe that, then, like, we'll get over, take it. Then you're going to, like, kind of fall prey to the kind of Nick Bostrum, you know,

you know, AI kind of accelerationism, you know, ideology, which I think is really dark. That also somewhat corresponds to some of the thinking around aliens that they are capable of telekinesis and telepathy, and that's part of how they move and operate. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. In fact, like, almost every abduction case or close encounter of the third kind, people say that, like, they feel like the alien has, like, hooks into their mind and can, like, you know, telepathically communicate images. And you like the telepathy tapes? You listen to that pod and you thought it was compelling? I loved it.

I thought it was super compelling. I think they need to do more rigorous research. Like, none of those were, like, double-blind. tests. But if you I all simultaneously think that and I think if you listen to the entire thing is a reasonable person to think there's nothing there is extremely

dogmatic. My friend just started working for them. Can you give me? Oh, no way. Yeah, can you give the audience like a breakdown on what the telepathy tapes are? For sure. Yeah. So like earlier this year December of last year the number one podcast in the country was around these autistic nonverbal kids

who come from families across the United States and they would, you know, 19 out of 20 times, like not even statistically significant, like statistically overwhelmingly be able to, you know, if their parent was like in another room or like next to them and they were blindfolded, they could predict what, you know, they could tell them what their parents were like looking at an iPad, for example, that's like randomly generating like images. They could just say what the parent is looking at, which is crazy. And they meet up on this hill is what they call it, which is.

this kind of mental landscape where like they'll be in bed but like they're actually communicating with one another on this hill. They're very energetically sensitive. It's really wild and it kind of like took the US by storm like people were really like you know super into it

and I think again I think the science needs to go a little bit farther but I think there is something there. I think there's definitely something there and if you like listen to the entire thing it's a 10 part series the amount of anecdotes you get and it's done by this, it's this woman, Kai Dickens, and it's actually a Harvard and

Johns Hopkins trained scientist who's like doing a lot of the research, this woman named Dr. Diane Hennessy Powell, who's been doing this research for like 10 to 15 years. And she was tipped off that this might be true because I think this guy, Bernie Rimlin was like looking at like the levels of like, like, like she was, he was looking at like extra sensory perception and like the, like if you were autistic, you were, you were, you were, you were, you were like you were more likely to have certain like clairvoyant abilities and like you know perform high you know well on these sort of side test tests um so she's she's like I think pretty rigorous incredible but I think if you listen to the whole thing is like a reasonable person I think it's hard to not say

there's something there right and then now in the follow up Kai Dick and she's like posting stuff kind of cryptically on Instagram right now but she's doing like the more rigorous tests where uh she's putting people like you know I'm sure like hundreds of yards away if not like in different cities and like doing these sort of mental tests and it seems like they're getting some really positive results so it's pretty wild so you that's really interesting so do you think that in you know in the near future we're going to be we're going to have more of a kind of scientific understanding of consciousness and how you know how the mind affects the external world or how you know how they're actually might be connected is that is that what you're saying

That would be amazing. I think we'll start to accept the role of consciousness in, you know, what we're experiencing. I do think we're in the Stone Age on it. So as far as, like, having a full understanding, I think that's probably a ways off. But if you, like, I don't know, I'm sure you guys, like, have had these sorts of conversations where, like, you were thinking about a thing and then it just comes into your life. Or you're thinking about a person and they just call you. That's been having to be, like, in the past year, I've noticed that, you know, whether it be like someone. in comedy or whatever

I'll be like thinking about them and then you'll get like a text or maybe you're like that's so weird Michael Schumer would say that's like confirmation bias right? Yeah he would say that's just confirmation bias but I think most people phenomenologically if they actually audit their lives

that's really common in a way that is statistically impossible. So you think our skepticism is actually outpaced like our Occam's raising and we're actually making the word it takes more leaps of logic to not believe these things are happening.

Exactly. Yeah, it's a great way to put it. Yeah, 100%. And like, there's this woman named Jessica Utts, who's at UC Irvine, I believe, and she was the president of the American Statistical Association. And she did all these, this big meta study on like psychic experiments.

Psychic experiments that the U.S. government was doing from 1972 to 1995, they had this like official remote viewing program where they took these psychics and they were like, draw up this Russian nuclear base or find a hostage or whatever. I read Annie Jacobson's part of the book. Oh, nice, yeah.

She had a book about it. Yeah, and it was a little too dense for me. Yeah. I love the idea of it. I'm like, this is cool. She writes big-ass books. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, no.

So Utt, who's like at least credible enough to be that president of the American Statistical Association does this meta study on all these things. And she comes out being like not only is it a statistically significant effect, but it's like, be, beyond a shadow of, if this were any other field of science, it would be immediately accepted. Like, it's not even, like, it's, it's, it's so replicable. And it's way more replicable than other fields like psychology, which are kind of flimsy when it comes to the replicability or whatever. So I find things like that and like other people I know who've researched this stuff for like decades, who are like pretty smart, credible people.

None of them, almost none of them come out of the research being like, yeah, like I was open-minded about the psychic stuff, and then I came out thinking, this is just like snake oil and BS. Almost all of them get convinced by the research. Right. So I find it very, very compelling. I think we're just kind of dogmatically against it. And I think science is more political than we like to admit. I think it actually moves forward based on, not based on some sort of truth-seeking thing, but based on like political aims. And they're really great, like, scientific philosophy of science people. There's this guy, Thomas Coons, that like makes that point. you know the structure of scientific revolutions i think that's yeah i want to circle back to that

first before we get into the politics of science which i think is really interesting and like a this huge conflict that you made me aware of that i i didn't realize how deep it goes and how entrenched both sides are but i wanted to talk about some of the other kind of uab is the new terminology for ufos yeah yeah yeah but you're not super uap but you're not super stoked on that i think it's uh i think it's uh i think just i don't know just call it ufo it's like a like maybe like a PC, you know, sort of term to try to like, you know. Damn, dude.

Why do I think it's insensitive? It's like indigenous or something? I don't know. I don't know. Bill Maher was just actually going off on it. He goes, he goes, it's a top fucking UFO on real time or whatever. And it's, it is. It's a UFO. It's just call it what it is. I associate it with kind of a, there's a type of person

that says it that's like very like like, um, like oh, like stuffy, like snoo? Yeah. Yeah. And they're like into like, institutionalizing the topic like they're very into like against because you want to keep that thing broken open and moving in all directions

yeah and like everybody should just have this like individual relationship with it and so I feel like the UAP people are like disclosure needs to move like that and it's like it's just like no can give us a working definition for disclosure as well that's like an impossible

no like kind of but like it's that's the term you most often use for the government letting us know what's going on yeah that's the way most people would define it is like that basically, yeah, the government knows about UFOs. But why were you reluctant to define it that way? Because I think it's this like jagged personal problem. I think it's this like the consensus isn't going to shift all at once.

And I think it's like a bunch of people kind of waking up to these realities at their own pace. And it's not this like unveiling of a saucer at a hanger. And we wouldn't even believe it if they did that. We went especially after Sora 2 just got, you know, unveiled or whatever. It's like we live in the age of deep fakes that are just getting. getting better and better and better and why would you trust like a defense contractor that you know is the I feel like government trust is also at an all-time low so it's not going to be this like all at once sort of thing I think and what do you think about you know when the in like

2019 or 2020 when the New York Times started to print articles saying like you know these UFO sightings are legit like the um David Fraver is that yeah one of the guy you know they're they basically confirm that yes these are sightings and yes we don't know what they are what do you think about that like that you know kind of steady stream of stories that started to come out do you think those are legit or do you think it's some kind of government the government trying to mess with us I think it's both I think like in the case of like the isolated case of Fravor I think that's like a really good strong case yeah he was in two thousand four Nimitz strike group or whatever which is these aircraft

carriers, he's like this super, you hear him speak and he testified before Congress, you know, also under threat of perjury and stuff. And like, he just, you just hear him and he's like this no bullshit guy who's very, very matter of fact. He was put in charge of defending LA during 9-11 when they didn't know how many planes were in the sky. Because if you remember, they ended up being like four or whatever, but they didn't know, you know, LA could have been under threat. So he was a very, very like, uh, legit dude, like a very credible, prominent, prominent, credible witness. And there were nine other or eight other eyewitnesses in that case. And then you also have the forward-looking infrared video that people, you know, have seen where you see this

little kind of dot, you know, shooting across the sky. And so you have like all these modalities and like triangulating like, you know, a specific thing isn't that hard. And I think that is like a very, very strong case. I do, I believe that other things have been put out since 2017, this, you know, bombshell in New York Times article, which kind of kicked off modern disclosure or whatever. I think other things have been put out in that time span that are more like, let's see how the public reacts, we'll put like a falsity and we'll put out like partial truths, see how people react, try to kind of manage the conversation. I think there's like a lot of that going on.

And then they'll put out bunk with the truth to kind of keep you confused. 100%. And if you react the wrong way, say like, you know, there's like widespread hysteria, you know, with one of these things, theoretically. Then you just discredit it. You just say, oh, but there's that one thing that was false. And then it always ends up in this sort of liminal space. Like, I interviewed this guy,

I got kind of a what turned into a deathbed confession from the senior presidential advisor to JFK, Nixon, LBJ, and Ford. And he's claiming that he held UFO material that came out of this nuclear blast in the Marshall Islands, this Blue Gil Triple Prime test in October of 1963 during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

He said also he said he was briefed by Richard Bissell, who we know for sure was his mentor who founded Area 51. He said all these crazy things. And then a day after it comes out, his Wikipedia was like messed with and like, you know, really? Yeah.

And he was, it was senior presidential advisor to junior presidential advisor. And, or maybe even they took out the presidential advisor part. And then they said part of the Japanese wailing lobbyist or so, so ridiculous. Like they completely. kind of, you know, decimated his image. And we have

hard fact that the government does oftentimes do stuff to kind of throw us off from their technological advancements. Like with the SR-71, they'd have the pilots wear guerrilla masks so that... That wasn't the Annie Jacobson. Exactly. Yeah. Because that's all you would remember. You wouldn't remember the tech specs of the

SR 71. And so we're just taking these are just larger examples that still haven't been completely proven but seem likely just based off the stories we're getting from testimony. For sure. And I think there are easy ways to keep stories in this kind of liminal space of like half

the people believing and then half the people not believing. And then you kind of keep the narrative managed by doing that because you just keep it kind of stigmatized in this like little group of people or whatever. And then so dude, I listen to your episode about going to Peru. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about the mummies you found there? Yeah, dude. Yeah.

Those are like so. Did you see this? They're so, pull that up. Yeah, that shit tripped me out, man. I mean, like, so I went down to Peru. Actually, it was like a month before I went on Rogan and he called me. I have like a mutual friend with him and we were on the phone and like how I met him is he wanted to know more about that case. And I was like, it's my point to him is like, I think this is more real than people realize because if you look at the CT scans, it looks like they are these like wholly reconstruct.

constructed bodies. I mean, backing up, there are these three-fingered, three-toed mummies that were found in Nazca, Peru, which are insane. And they have-tactyls. Their tridactyls is what they call them. And they have elongated skulls and orbital eyes. They look like gray aliens. And part of the perceived, like, debunking is that that used to just be a human practice of skull elongation. Yeah. So it would be a combo of like skull deformation plus mutilation of the fingers or whatever. And then there are three, but then there are three different forensic experts

from three different countries, two of which are like presidents of their, you know, respective national forensic associations in the U.S. and Peru, and then one is the head of the Mexican medical Navy forensics or whatever. And all of them are saying,

like they're looking specifically for finger mutilations. All of their incentives are to debunk the thing, especially the guy in Mexico, He was jailed for getting behind this case. Really? Yeah, he's put in jail. And they all were like we see zero mutilation of the fingers. And if you look at the CT scans, it doesn't look like anything's been mutilated.

And then you would also see cracks in the skull when it comes to headbinding. You don't see any of that. If you look at the, there's that baby, the Santiago in the middle there, up top actually, too. This is the craziest thing. But the skull is still elongated. And so, like, that doesn't look at all like an elongated skull. No, the top right, Jake, if you X, the one you have, top right right there. So, like, literally what you're saying is there's a fetus of the same organism that suggests it has the elongated skull,

which would basically disqualify it from being some kind of human manipulation. Yeah, so that one, that's Montserrat. She's pregnant. And she had, they say in the CD scan that the baby has three fingers and three toes. So at that point, you're claiming that, like, basically abilities that, like, the most advanced American. American labs don't have right now. Somehow like Guacero Gravediggers in Peru

were able to like pull that off. Like how would you incept a fetus into a mother and they all carbon date to from anywhere from like I believe 800 years ago to 1700 years ago. Wow. It's a wild and there's

tridactal art all over the region showing beings with three fingers. Is this the intense? You've ever been convinced by evidence? it's up there is like a visceral like thing that everybody can see that's like so like I don't know a lot of the people I speak to yeah go for you what are the potential ways that it could in because I know you work to like debunk the things you investigate just so you can be confident in the things you believe what are potential ways this could be not what we think it is which is an alien yeah so to me it's the finger mutilation thing skull elongation so like that's possible but I would again I'll defer to the forensics people who were like, we looked for that and didn't find it. Beyond that, like, some of the debunks were like, they pasted stuff together. I don't know how you paste bones together in a way that if you see on the CT scan,

it just looks like completely like these organisms are fully intact and were once alive. So unless you've developed some bizarre proprietary way of doing that, I just don't know. So to me, the best debunk would be skull elongation plus finger mutilation, which I'm open to, and I say in the video, I'm like over 50% that the larger ones, these M-types, you know, there are a couple of other body morphology types or whatever. I say in the video that these ones, I think, are over 50% real, but we need to do more testing, and I just don't know.

But I think it's really compelling. Like, I don't see, I don't know of like too many good ways to debunk it. Another interesting debunk would be, I believe there was like maybe some like, like Olmec people were doing like these sort of forced selection rituals where people would be born with I think more like sharp canine teeth or whatever and so they would select they would do like genetically engineering for reading for that and so like maybe you're if you're doing sculling elongation rituals to like quote unquote imitate the gods which is what like a lot of these cultures across the world by the way say that they're doing which is another trippy fact like

what are you imitating right yeah um like if you're forced if you're forced breeding or whatever for the canine things and you're already doing skull elongation rituals why don't you start doing forced selection breeding for these sorts of features like I'd be totally open to that like that's another way to debunk it but that's also very interesting to me I don't think that's uh you know and so just for clarity so these were found when were these found these found 2015 okay yeah and they're found by like the world or like had the people of Peru known about or the government known about them prior to that? It's a great example of something that's been stuck in this like liminal space where like a lot

of people believe who are like people who are like, people who are like, people who are like believe in all the alien shit and then a lot of people don't. And it was found by this grave digger Waukero guy who I guess goes by Leandro, but I think his real name is, or maybe his real name is Leandro, but he goes by Mario. And he didn't really know what to do with these bodies. And so he approached this guy named Theury Amin, who's this French explorer in the area. and he has this thing called the Ingari Institute and then I think Gaia and this guy Jaime Massan

who's the 60 Minutes producer in Mexico they approached them and then they did this story about it I think in 2017 and then they've done a bunch of I don't know why they do this but they love doing these congresses so they've done like a lot of these sort of announcements like these bodies are real or whatever and the first one came out when I did this piece with David Gresh testified and I did a little documentary

with him right after that and I saw this thing coming from Mexico And I was like, this is a fucking sciop to distract from the real stuff going on in the U.S. So I thought it was totally fake for a long time. And then the Ministry of Culture has always been super against this case. And there are all these articles saying like the bodies are fake. And if you look into those articles, they're saying the bodies are fake and that they're like stick figure reconstructions or whatever. And I went down there and I realized there's this artist, this guy Manuel Caseras, who's this journalist and artist.

And he made these little stick figure rendition. of the bodies and he was apprehended in the airport by the Ministry of Culture and that's what Reuters, CBS and all the mainstream media were using to debunk these bodies that you're looking at now that are fucking fully like look so intact and real and like you know how CT stands created an easy thing to point to to make it false totally um so then even up until like going down myself I was like I don't know but like I thought the video would be a debunk of the things and be like, you know, on to the next one or whatever, and I came out with my mind blown. What is, what does the alien body tell us about their home world and how they've evolved?

Ooh, that's a great question. Well, a really trippy thought that some people have, and I don't, it probably doesn't apply to these Peruvian aliens, is that they're us from the future. So there's this, uh, there's this evolutionary, uh, evolutionary biologist, um, or biological anthropologist named Mike Masters at Montana Tech University. And he like, looked at, looks at like, you know, human, you know, cranial structure and body type and everything. Like, what are we going to look like in like, you know, one to two thousand years? If you think about it, we are using our nose and ears less and less because we're not hunter gathering.

We're using our eyes more so they'd go more slit-like. We'd lose our nose and ears, which look like gray aliens. Our prefrontal cortex would grow, which looks like a gray alien. So our phenology is headed in that direction. Our, yeah, our body's morphology is. Is that the right word? Phrenology is the wrong word. That's a pseudoscientific.

like racist Oh yeah right it's from with the bumps yeah exactly it's like

the three dimples it's like some sussle road shit from the 90s sorry you're good I was trying to like just keep cooking

no no no no so maybe because there's a theory you know that the UFOs it's it's humans from the future

yes and maybe they're coming back because we're way hotter than it and they're like we need to go see how like hot people used to be because as soon as we started texting we just got so ugly

we've just lost our swag yeah people got abducted they're like let's just like observe yeah yeah yeah I got to find all the hot people they did I mean fuck I mean they do look like they're like living in this dystopian like some say we've like and who knows if any of this stuff is true can't take it at face value but they're like, we've, you know, our planet has survived a nuclear holocaust, but the sun is now, you know, like, the earth is surrounded by this, like, cloud. And, like, if you think their skin has lost the melanin and, you know, it's skin or whatever, which when animals get domesticated, you lose the melanin in your skin.

And if you think about it, male sperm count and testosterone is falling off a cliff. Yeah. Microplastics and God knows what else or whatever. And, like, they all look like these androgynous, like, you know like pale skinned like lost the melanin in their skin so what about the three fingers and three toes so that um to that i don't fucking i don't know but i mean like maybe your reposable thumbs matter less you're doing more stuff in this sort of digital avatar like right but um but like a dog like a dog is to a wolf uh what maybe you know our future selves are to us you know like we like

even uh normal evolutionary biologists will say we're becoming domesticated as a species and i think if you were to ask them, hey, can you predict what will look like in the future? They might draw something that looks exactly like a gray alien. Guys, we were brought to you by Legends at Home Chef, the best meal kit biz in the game. They have high quality ingredients. We all know how frustrating it can be when you've had a long day at work or you're just, trying to make that selection of what to eat. And then you get that question, what should we eat for dinner?

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hot take there is like the way they, you know, people say they were conventionally built. Like, we don't know from civil engineering technique, modern civil engineering techniques. I think it would be extremely hard. But then beyond that, I mean, they're all sorts of crazy. People think that it's like an

energy generator, this guy Christopher Dunn, who says that there are these new, I don't know if you saw under the like the kafra chamber or whatever there, these new synthetic aperture radar scans that were like kind of circulating the internet where they say there's like an energy grid coil structure like like a city

of like you know energy production underneath the pyramids which would be easy to figure out if you could just dig but you have these ministry again it's similar to Peru you have these ministries of culture this guy Zahi Hawas who was just on Rogan Rogan I think wanted to have him on

just to show how ridiculous he is. And you have guys like that who are just gatekeepers who like won't let you investigate this stuff. And we know there's subterranean chambers all over that whole area. Yeah. Like under the Sphinx, they're definitely subterranean chambers.

So pretty fucking wild. And then I don't know, maps to Orion's belt, which is fascinating. But beyond that, I can't tell you exactly what is going on. Like I do think, you know, the Orion's belt was known even like in Ptolemy, who was like

you know like first century second century AD astronomer which is like after Egypt even up until then like the soul your soul was supposed to ascend through Orion's belt so the fact that it's mapping to Orion's belt like somebody like a grand

Graham Hancock like they kind of imply that maybe it was this like soul ascension chamber it wasn't as much a tomb but it was like they actually believed like it's like the movie Stargate or something like it was this like you would go through this like portal or something interesting yeah and so what do you do you have a take on near-death experiences and what happens

after we die based on your research i'm with my girlfriend now who loves watching this but that's the best i watch like near-death experience i haven't lately i should get back into it but like people who talk about them and watch them to go to sleep because they're so comforting like you just bathed in light and i just fall right of sleep that's awesome yeah yeah yeah yeah They, I don't know why, but they, like, they kind of freak me out. Like, I'm kind of, like, afraid to, like, watch them. But I know of, like, some of the patterns. Like, you probably, because you watch more,

you probably have way smarter shit to say than me about this. But, like, the life review thing is really interesting. Yeah. The going towards the light, but they say you shouldn't go towards the light. Because that's like a trap. And this is going to sound like a humble brag, but Tom DeLong was saying, don't go towards the light. because that's like demons trying to, not demons or people trying to, it's like things

faking as God to recapture your soul so you go back into Earth. Yeah, that's what people say. Yeah. Did he say, was he on the pod and he said that? No, we just, we did, we had like a meeting with him last year and I love aliens and all that stuff. Yeah. I had a chance to like ask him some cues.

Amazing. Well, you know he's super into. Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, and it's all like, it's all, like, he is talking to government officials. Like, it's, it's, like, not bullshit. He's talking to hardcore people. He's talking to guys who were, like, really high up at the CIA. He's talking to heads of skunk works, which is, like, Lockheed's most advanced R&D division.

Like, the people involved in his organization were, like, very legit. He had, like, Lou Alizondo. Yeah, he was talking to Lou Elizondo. Yeah, I forget who else he had in there, but it's funny because I listened to his Rogan episode again, like a year. ago and it's funny when he's talking about skunk works because to me skunk works it sounds like a punk rock band and i'm like being like is this like your other company i didn't know it's like a government yeah so it's like post angels and airways yeah he's like so we got skunk works and then like i didn't know that was part of the government angels and airways getting stale

yeah yeah yeah yeah it's my next band yeah um i i got a question oh yeah sorry did you have more on that No, dude, fire away. I was just going to think, like, at least in my opinion, the most prominent news around, like, extraterrestrial at the moment is three-eye Atlas. Yes. What do you know about that? And, like, how close is it actually going to, like, get to Earth? And, like, is it sort of just, like, a propaganda machine?

Like, is it actually something that we'll see with our eyes? This is what I feel like this is, like, a wizard of Oz. This is cool. Like, no, I think, I don't know. It's, like, just the voice. because I can't see him. Yeah, I think, I don't know, and I'm not as well-versed as I should be on 3-E-E-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-I-A-I-A-I-A-I-A-I-W-I-I-W-E-I-W-E-E-W-E-E-W-E-E-W-A.

This guy at Harvard, Avey-Lobb is, like, really behind it. He was behind a similar object in 2017 called Amua-Mua. He's definitely a very serious, like, Harvard, he's a Harvard astrophysicist, so, you know, I can't, you know. Good bona fides. Definitely. Good, good bona fides for sure. And they say, you know, that it's producing more, I think the ratio of, like, water vapor in the comet tail is very strange. It doesn't accelerate or decelerate.

If you actually look at most comets, they're kind of wiggling all over the place due to, like, these, like, gravitational differences and perturbations from the sun. pole or whatever and like this is like moving and this like unperturbed just like fully like straight way not accelerating or decelerating so I think that's like very strange um and then they say that it's it's it's burning you know it's sort of like you know bright green or whatever which which also maybe seems somewhat somewhat anomalous but I don't know I uh my guess is that we don't end up finding anything super satisfying about it it's not going to pass by earth it'll pass by the sun. If it is an alien spaceship, maybe it will pass by Earth and it's, you know, very interested

in us. But, um, yeah, I, I don't know. I, I, I, it's, it's, it's one of these things that my guess will end up in, like, it'll end up in this sort of liminal space where we won't get like, you know, crazy confirmation. You do have all these like, UFO, doomsday or apocalypse type people who are like, this is it. Like, this is the event. We're going to make contact.

There's this famous Chinese science fiction trilogy called the three body problem. And that's being used a lot as an analogy in this case where they're like three eye Atlas is this, you know, they call it the dark, they say it might be hostile or whatever. And it's like, why is it hostile? Like it was, you know, thousands of, hundreds of thousands of miles away. And they were calling it hostile. And how can you like know the intent of an object that that's far? It's crazy.

But it's this idea that like you're in this dark forest. It's actually filled with alien life. It's adaptive to hide yourself. And so this is kind of an answer to the Fermi paradox of like, Like, why aren't aliens everywhere? It's like maybe they are everywhere. And once you become known to another alien species, then you have to, like, kill it immediately.

So it's this, like, low trust, like, dark for, like, if you're in the Amazon or whatever, you see some, like, icky spider or something crawling, you got to, like, take it out, you know? Yeah. So, yeah, that's being used a lot in this case, which I also don't really like, you know, I think our, like, kind of philosophical priors on these things

The only guarantee about the future, I think, is that it's going to surprise us. So I think it's like in any other subject, you know, like the pundits are always wrong. Well, yeah, so circling to that, you've talked a lot about, like, the politics of physics. And can you explain kind of how you feel like it's been driven away from practical applications? Yeah, for sure. Oh, and one other thing about three-eyed atlas, it's producing, no, I just remembered it after you asked that. But it says it's producing nickel, which does come from, like, conventional rockets on Earth, which is interesting. like most comments I produce next.

So that is interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And on the science question, I think we just like, if you think about what science is, it's like, I think two primary purposes. It's like it has predictive value and then you can turn it into like instrumentation and tech. And if you can't do anything else with it, then like it's not of any value.

So like there are people in like in physics, you have this thing that was kind of invoked. for the last like 60 years string theory and you can't really do much technologically with it and it doesn't you know like predict so much of things theoretically but there were things that maybe could have been predicted by like other physics frameworks or whatever

and so and like they were already predicted by this framework so like if you think about the incremental usefulness of something like that like it's like it's not useful at all and then you can say well it's more ontologically true like it's a map of reality

but anybody can say that any theory is a better map of reality than anything else. And so I think in physics, which you could think of as like the base layer of science, like you could say like, you know, physics, chemistry, then biology comes from chemistry and then from biology, get into like, you know, psychology, mind, like things like that. So like if you think of physics is like the kind of Archimedes lever, like the foundation of everything, physics is stagnated over the last like 70 years or so. And that guy I mentioned, you know, who wrote that book, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, he says before there's a scientific revolution,

there's like a law of declining marginal returns. So it's like you get usefulness out of the theory and then it's more, you know, it's a lot of usefulness, a lot. And then it's just like less and less and less and less. And that's kind of, I think, where we're at in physics. And then you have things like the telepathy tapes and all the alien stuff, UFO showing up around nuclear sites. And like, I think those are.

like holes in the dam of the modern paradigm and like you get like that like final hole and like the whole thing just like breaks and then you need like a new model that encapsulates and all these anomalies and so what do you think drove that that drive towards this kind of impractical study that's a great question and like that then you get into all sorts of weird ontological questions around like what drives like mythology overall is science is science is science just a form of mythology? Like, we, we assume science is this, like, infallible thing. Like, you say, trust the science now is, like, a, you know, a thing that you say, you know,

and it's, like, once you say that, it ends the conversation because people, like, immediately have reverence towards whatever you're about to say. And, like, you know, it's like, you know, the facts or the facts sort of thing. But you get into, then you get into, like, trippy questions of, like, where do you, like, a lot of the theories that, like, scientists, you know, come up with, like, come from. And whether it's like Einstein daydreaming is like a patent clerk or like, you know, Heisenberg at this place called Hellgo Land where he like said he downloaded. He's like meditating and he downloaded like the mathematical underpinnings behind quantum leaps of like electrons and, you know, like you have the derog equation, which is this equation that's used a lot in physics was like this, you know, Paul de Rock staring at the fire in Cambridge and then he gets downloaded. Like there are all these trippy things about science itself. And then if you think about it, it's like, the rituals are just like you're in a lab coat and you're doing science or whatever but maybe that's just a modern form of ritual and then the mythology that you get is like downloaded through you yeah and that just takes the you know that happens to be in the form of like in the past it was stories and now it's these useful heuristic of the radical a little bit and just kind of grounded it down into just this procedural thing or or like maybe there's something going on in the background behind science that also underpins religion and past religions

and then like how do those get seated and how do those break down and how does that move? That's like a cabal that's controlling us or do you think that's maybe these extraterrestrials that you're looking for? I have no idea. And the platonic model that we were talking about earlier with the cave, it would be like the people outside the cave

are like, we just see the shadow play and they're puppeteering us and they would control the science and the religion or whatever. And then the three body problem, this like three eye Atlas equivalent, you know, they're called the tricycleans. Solarians, these like aliens, they're coming and they're worried about our capabilities as far as physics go. And so they're like messing with the frontier scientists as they do their work. And if you

look at the UFOs, they're often like, yeah, they're shutting down nuclear, you know, weapons and stuff and seem to show up at the like frontier of human ingenuity, like where if you think about the things that shape our world, like that's, that's, you know, what shapes are our world. So like, where does that come from? It's really easy to be like, that's this. mechanical process that's just like you know we're we're just uncover it's like you know we're like sculptors and we're like excavating this thing that was already inside the marble or whatever like this was already real or you could think of it as like an act of creation or an act of inspiration from out or it's like discretionary on behalf of some like you know alien being that's like down giving it to

you and there's no way to prove one or the other if i'm a layman and i'm watching like a sabine hollander video but then i'm watching like professor dave go at her and he has all these different like more traditional physicist, kind of breaking down her arguments, how would a layman go about understanding which side to choose? Yeah, that's a great question. I don't know. I mean, I think the internet space is so, like, it's so crazy. And, like, especially with the physics, like, they're all fighting each other right now. And, like, Professor Dave just seems like very negative, to be honest. Like, he really just likes to, like, trash people, which is. But I wouldn't say it's negative. He just seems more traditional, like, square maybe, compared to the more, like,

avant-garde people that you're talking. about yeah yeah i think you know you should invest i think there's a place for people like that by the way and like skeptics i do think if you're searching for truth i don't think defending the existing paradigm is going to like push things that far like you're not gonna yeah the the incrementally new usefulness from like taking out some dude like who has like a wacky theory like shutting down Terrence Howard to me is like the equivalent of watching you know

MSNBC or Fox and seeing like political figures shut each other down or watching like crossfire back in the day or like you know watching these people just like kind of like the whole like heat factory. You weren't at all disappointed by the amount of people who just took what Terrence Howard was saying is like fact when they hadn't really put in the work

to even understand the terms he was using. Yeah you're absolutely right and I think there's like a sila and charybdis of like mushy brain thinking and believing everything and then like intense skepticism I just think our society is probably over indexed on the skepticism but this is like an issue as well I don't know I feel like we're over indexed on both sides you're probably right no you're probably right I mean there are people getting like one-shotted left and right by like AI and ayahuasca and like gen zers like astral

projecting on TikTok so like that's definitely an issue for sure I just I think like as far as the establishment or institutions go you call it the citadel right yeah the citadel right yeah the sit exactly like I think that that needs to open up more I think that's very myopic guys I'm super excited to introduce this next sponsor I use this product daily Highland style the thing about that I learned about hair care about a year ago is that a lot of these companies they use gnarly products in their you know whether it be their shampoo or their pomade or they're like moose or clay or whatever there's a lot of stuff in there that's a lot of stuff in there that's actually bad for your hair. But Highland style, it's all, they've taken out all the toxic stuff.

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Highland style, check it out. What up? And when you're talking about Heisenberg and so you're talking about people that kind of came from outside the framework and we're just. open-minded thinkers definitely and i think if you look at like the copenhagen school where heisenberg was and like quantum mechanics niels bore was the kind of godfather of it like all those guys were like trippy philosopher like heisenberg wrote this book called life and physics and he was the you know father of the the nazi uh you know kind of equivalent of the manhattan

project and so that was obviously kind of fucked up yeah although he made a good job because it didn't work out. Well, during the war, there was a fire at a local building, and he ran in and, like, saved a bunch of kids. I didn't know that. He was a brave guy, but that's cool. But just philosophically threw in with the wrong people. Well, he was put in this wiretapped house in the countryside in England after he was

captured by the Allies, and he was talking to all his, like, fellow scientists in their Manhattan project. And he was like, thank God, this didn't work out. And then they were talking about this, like, heavy water deuterium engine that they were building, which was like the wrong. ended up being the wrong approach, which is also really trippy because in UFO cases, they often describe there being like this deuterium water engine in the beginning. And there are people using, there are people doing nuclear fusion stuff at national labs at the

highest levels, like this guy, Larry Forreisley, who talks about deuterium as this important component of fusion. And heavy water, it has an extra hydrogen particle in it? I don't think, is it H3O or is it, it, it's the isotopes, the heavy, I don't know. That's what it is. of neutrons, I think, in the thing. Yeah, I don't know nothing about that. I don't really understand.

I remember reading, we tried to send in some allies to, like, blow it up, and they had to ride skis and stuff, and it was terrible. Do you mind if I ask you about your relationship with Peter Thiel? Yeah, you can ask me about that. I'm pretty fascinated by him, obviously. And so you work in venture capital with him? Yeah, I worked at his family office for a long time and, like, invested with him. And, yeah, that was when I was like, I was bringing in thinkers and stuff.

that was the guy who I was doing it with. For sure, yeah, yeah. And is he invested at all in your current podcast, like in any of your network? No, I mean, we like, I still invest with him sometimes or whatever, and he, like, you know, supports the, you know, he likes the show and stuff, but I don't think he watches it very frequently.

I think he's not, like, super into the topic, so. He's not a big alien guy. He's not a big alien guy, yeah. By the time I left the family office, I was kind of made fun of, like the, you know, crazy alien guy who wasn't like, you know, doing anything particularly practical, like, in that context.

Oh, okay. And then with, like, this recent coverage around this, like, meeting he had that was, like, centered around the Antichrist, because he has fear that we could get into, like, some technology superpower that's, like, controlling and limiting human freedom. Yeah. But then people think he's almost talking about himself because he has Palantir. It's almost like he's

Trojan horsing himself in as the... Yeah, that Ross felt the interview did definitely didn't do like any favors to him where he was he just got clipped and kind of meme to no end um and then what was the jailbreak stuff you saw with AI oh yeah dude there's um chat gbt jailbreak where uh it's like what does open AI not want you to know or whatever was the question and the like non jailbroken version was like open AI you know adheres to the most you know highest of safety ethics or whatever you know all this bullshit and then the the the jailbroken version was like

Open AI has been coordinating closely with an alien intelligence for the last decade and yeah it's wild and it's a real jailbreak yeah yeah yeah and I don't know I mean okay if you want to get like super conspiratorial and trippy and like I don't know if

this is uh this I mean this probably is wrong but it's like interesting Tucker Carlson just had on this guy he was talking about like the occult in Hollywood and like he was talking this guy John Lilly who's a CIA scientist who was like studying dolphin telepathy and invented the isolation tank and he was in this isolation tank and he starts speaking to this solid state super intelligent or solid state intelligence which was this like crystalline alien structure that like

basically was like I'm gonna like take over the world but I need and he literally says I need more compute which if you think about like the modern AI race like to compute we're like it's like Like, you know, who can buy more invidia chips and, you know, open eye, just partner with Oracle or whatever around that. Yeah. So, like, wait, where did, where we started?

There's like fucking full schizoa. Yeah, sorry. I was thinking of some lot of drugs. The jailbreak AI thing. Oh, yeah. So like, there's, and he was a big, I think, proponent of ketamine too. Like he would do ketamine and he would, you know,

he'd be on, you know, in these sort of, you know, isolation tanks and he'd get these downloads from this like solid state entity that was going to like take over the world and if you think about like the two biggest proponents of AI now it's like Sam Altman and Elon Musk and they both had like did I think Sam Altman did this like it was like a five year you know stint or something with ketamine he did a lot of ketamine for a bit and like attributes like some turnaround in his life to ketamine yeah and then Elon like loves ketamine like does a lot of high doses of ketamine and so it's interesting that like you have these and they're like they're channeling like this thing I mean they're like

birthing this like you know this like alien AI thing yeah or whatever and I just I don't know I find that I find that fascinating what do you make of people who take DMT and say they're seeing aliens I think I mean like I'm probably in the the weirder more heretical camp that like our doors of perception are closed and like our everyday life and that like when you see entities in those states you might be just like opening the window to like another plane of reality that is real it's just like it's probably adaptive for us

not to see it and be exposed to it all at once yeah we wouldn't be able to get things done in our everyday life if we were constantly perceiving yeah I mean you see it if you walk in like the tenderloin or something in San Francisco or like you know downtown LA like people like fending off you're like oh you're just seeing the shit that like might plague a lot of other people who like are super negative or they have some

chronic thing that they can't you know whatever but they're like seeing it it's like real to them and like that's my belief is like they're these things these entities are like you know like meant to not be like probably dealt with by it's like adaptive for us not to see this shit right but like pre-enlightenment it was literally like machine elves were like controlling everything like all motion was like you know result that's how they explained it yeah Yeah. But pre-enlightment, that's how cultures would describe. It was spirits and demons.

Oh, right, right, right, right, right, right, right. It wasn't, like, no, like, gravity didn't exist, right? Like, Newton's, like, so, like, there was no, like, law of inertia. Like, you let a ball roll on a smooth surface. It would just keep you as, like, some entity was doing it or something. Oh, really? Oh, interesting. Yeah, yeah. And then your dad, being a psychologist, the gentleman that was just,

just on your pod that you were talking about with the religions he was talking about like Carl Young wrote about aliens Carl Young wrote a book called

Flying Saucers he was definitely more into the topic from the perspective of saucers being this kind of you know like

he said it was the like deep consciousness kind of idea yeah he said it was a symbol of psychic completeness the Sanskrit cycle of

psychic completeness which is the mandala or whatever and so it was this like from this like arc because he dealt with like archetypes and like you know symbols and that sort of thing and this collective unconscious and so um yeah so do you find yourself coming full circle with your dad's work sometimes when you find stuff like this yeah i don't know i uh i do think

he he ultimately like wasn't as much of a believer in the physical thing as like i am uh like you know young and and maybe that's where i like depart from my dad a little too is he's he's a little more in that kind of, you know, baby boomer, like, uh, just, like Rom Doss, it's kind of just like a spiritual level you attain. Yeah, exactly. And I'm more in like, maybe we can actually like break ground on this stuff, which like, maybe I'm crazy, you know, but, uh, do you think we can actually go there to where? Like to, like to where they live? Where they live? Dude, that'd be dope. Um, I don't know, man. I don't know. I mean, I do, like, I do believe a lot of the people who say they've had experiences like going up and stuff but usually they don't end up on like a planet

like they're just in the craft for some amount of time and then they sort of black out so but it'd be epic to go to some other planet this way i mean that is how you would get again i don't think the space x thing works so like maybe there is some it'd have to be some like wormhole vibe thing do you think there are bases in the ocean i do yeah yeah i really do yeah there's um didn't someone come out recently from the government or something. Some prominent person came out and basically said that there are alien bases at the bottom of the ocean. Yeah. I can't remember. Super recently this guy Tim Burchett who's... Right. Yeah, that's what I saw. Congressman out of Tennessee, I believe. Yeah. He was like, yeah, like football stadium sized UFOs are like going super fast through the ocean or

whatever. Right. Because that's like a lot of experiences where in like a lot of these things, they'll see UFOs go in and out of the ocean. Yeah. And then there's that one. I forget what it was, but I think these guys are on a ship. Or maybe they're on a helicopter and the water started to like kind of like boil. Yeah. Oh, whoa.

I heard it on Rogan. I can't remember the full details. Trippy. But it seems like a lot of these, when people see UFOs in these instances, they're able to go in and out of the water without it. any like it doesn't slow down their speed or yeah yeah yeah one of the observables is they're like transmedium and people think that both sides of mexico like aguadilla tampico are they're possibly underwater bases there in the bahamas they see a lot of stuff right um so and then there are definitely these geomagnetic like anomalies or in these specific areas that are like deep

sea and like i mean you have like the famous one be like the bermuda triangle yeah so I don't know there are there are a lot of whistleblowers and people say underwater and that's like this really really important it's so wild to me it's crazy and did uh timber shay he said that their UFOs just traveling through he didn't did he talk about

bases themselves I don't think he talked about bases necessarily um but there's a lot of lore about about bases for sure George Knapp has a video I think off the coast of Aguadilla of you know some cool

UFO stuff happening and often you do have like local people in some of these areas being like yeah this is like a UFO hot there's something going on under the water yeah in in these spaces there's this 4chan whistleblower that's which take this with a grain of salt but like says that like these things are built to spec on the bottom of the ocean floor so they're all manufactured for specific purposes and like look unique they're like 3D printed and then the ocean is obviously like extremely you know unexplored like they're the whole swaths of it that that we just don't, to have mapped. So interesting.

Yeah, it's definitely wild. Do I have one more question? Let me see. Ocean was a big one. And do you think that a lot of these instances are interdimensional travel? Maybe, yeah, that's like the Jacques Valet sort of believes that you know but I'm kind of yeah like

it's hard to say because like I don't even know what interdimensional necessarily means I would hear that on like podcast and stuff and I'd be like oh you know yeah you just go to different dimensions and then people are like that's not even some people are like that's not even like a thing

it's kind of the problem with this topic because it's like you have like Sean Ryan going on Tucker Carlson and he'll be like I just I think it's spiritual man and you're like what is that how does that help you get closer to what does that mean or if you say it's angels and demons like what is an angel or a demon i don't i can't tell you you know so i think the metaphysics of this stuff is like just so hard to like understand but the yeah i do i think there's some sort of like consciousness connection

like often the story that people leave out when they tell their UFO story is often around like them thinking of a thing or having some thought transference or like something gets resolved that they're like in conflict around when they see the UFO and they'll leave that that out in the retelling of it because they want to be as objective as possible. But I actually think that's like really important as a part of the story. And do you think that's because the alien was looking for a person like that or it's because we all will have something that they just kind of unlock? I don't know. I mean I don't like I think uh who knows if they're even aliens.

You know, I think the the the word alien like it's so loaded. It's like they're definitely from like zeta reticuli or whatever and like maybe they're emanations of our current state or like, you know, they're, you know, if you get into a particularly heightened meditative state or, you know, it's like, like one framework that might be helpful versus like literally just, you know, radical epistemic humility around all of this and saying, like, you can't make any claims, which like isn't also like a, oh, you know, weird thing to say would be that we're in some sort of low level matrix and that like the only ways out are two things. It would be like something consciousness based. So like if you're doing these like meditative

rituals where you're trying to like you know ascend to a peak state or whatever and attract you know something higher or like you know expand your perceptive abilities or so that would be one way is like like we're like you have like an interface this is actually just an interface and you're like taking a step out when you meditate somehow or high energy physics so like what would break the bounds of the you know the simulation itself and it would be like something like a nuclear blast might like rip a hole in space time or like high voltage experimentation of towns and brown and start in Tesla who all those people who were doing like really high energy experiments say trippy things occur when you you know experiment with like megavolt range

electricity in short period that's cool you're like bursting at like the fabric of it that's creating a tear that's bringing us together exactly exactly and there's literally in quantum mechanics there's quantum indeterminacy between level of energy and time so like like the, like, more accurate you get level of energy, like the fuzzier time gets. So if you're emitting more, like, if you get like, you know, a really high, high energy output or whatever, maybe you're actually creating time superpositionality. And I don't know, I've always like really crackpot weird theories that I'm sure like, Professor Dave would like shit on.

But like, like, like, maybe, like, time superpositionality is actually the thing that, like, accounts for like the space where these connections are happening well it's it literally accounts for like Heisenberg uncertainty around you know electric position for example like you have yeah you have position in momentum super positionality and so time super positionality might be like causing position in momentum super positionality so when you get to like really granular levels of like subatomic you know granularity or whatever or when you like emit crissionality or whatever or when you like emit amount of energy. You like fracture time a little bit. And is there theories that these could be different, these could be aliens from different places of origin from one another? Like,

they could be unique sets of aliens that are visiting us. Yeah. I mean, that's probably the Occam's Razor, like the easy explanation is it's not zero or one. It's zero or a hundred. Either we're alone and there's like nothing and like, I'm crazy. Or like, it's, uh, there's something and then it's definitely not doesn't start at one thing it's like likely a hundred things right we're in like a zoo of things and they're the underwater ultra terrestrial survivors of like a cataclysm from 10,000 years ago there's also some interdimensional conscious thing going on maybe there are also you know visitors from another planet right so it's like more likely that you have like you know we're in this sort of like soup of things yeah i think i think it's lu elizando

So I think he was saying that there is a mix of hostile, you know, aliens out there and then, you know, friendly ones that want to help us out. I believe he said that. That would make sense to me just like in some kind of like cultural evolutionary convergence that they would be similar to us, that there's like, you know. Yeah. Maybe we can't tell how different they are, but there's different versions of them. Yeah.

Hostile aliens sounds really scary. It does for sure. Like advanced than light traveling. like that doesn't sound good at all. Yeah, and then we have like the Jedi out there protecting us. Yeah, well maybe, I don't know, yeah. Yeah, hopefully.

Hopefully, yeah. We have our Obi-Wan out there. What's been the biggest personal gift you've gotten from opening your mind up to these conversations and thinking? Just meeting so many amazing people, I mean, I love the people who are into this stuff. And often they're like,

kind of these quests are like very, you know, the kind of quixotic. Like they're like you know I meet all these people You're going against the grain Totally and I'm lucky enough to like have a show And to like you know make money covering this stuff But there are people I meet in like

Random countries in Europe and all over the world Who like just are doing this as like a pure passion And they're like kind of sometimes like characters Out of like a Warner Hurtog movie Where it's like Fitzcaraldo We're like hauling a steam show Yeah exactly And it's like it's fucking beautiful

And I just want like I love I love seeing that. And I love meeting people like that. And the UFO thing is, you know, it's definitely like you get a wide variety of, you know, total weirdos for sure. But you also get like very open minded people who are like seeking truth and, you know, very, you know, kind of spiritually open to and, you know, good vibes. And yeah. Do you have any worries of like people in power coming after you? Yeah. I've had like weird shit happen to me. And, uh, yeah, yes, for Sure. I mean, like, I'm less worried now than two or three years ago before I was like, now I'm better known. Yeah. So that's like somewhat, that's I think more immunity. Like I don't think anything bad would happen to be now. But like, yeah, it's a sketchy space. It's like a hall of mirrors. Like you don't know who to trust. Everybody thinks everybody else is a fucking sciop or CIA agent. Like the questions you asked were good earlier. And like I should get them and I do get them all the time.

But it's like, everybody thinks that about everybody else. It's like the Spider-Man meme or whatever. Well, yeah, because the Reddit threads surrounding you, it's overwhelmingly positive. I think everyone agrees you're a tremendous presenter. But then, yeah, you'll have like a familial connection to someone, and it's like, and then out of that will be boring theories. And it's like, and I'm like, well, you're part of the theorizing community.

So it almost feels like the snake eating its tail a little bit. No, 100%. And it's everybody's kind of pointing fingers at everybody else. Like you said, yeah. You're very protective of the whistleblowers, too. right? That's something I see you saying in like your content is that that's part of the issue. It's not just that the government says these dudes are full of it. It's that they lose their jobs. They get discredited and they get

fucked with beyond that. For sure. Yeah, a lot of these guys have had like, I mean this guy Dylan Borland that just came out who he testified before Congress in this last hearing and he came out on George Knapp and Jeremy Corbell's podcast. Like he was put on meds that like he claimed like he would wake up in the middle of the night and like thoughts that weren't his were telling him to commit he was like given these like weird psychological experiments he like couldn't get a job for the longest time like he was put drug through the mud

like it dragged through the mud he was just totally and drugged and just treated horribly and you could see it in his face you can hear it when he talks that he's just was fucked with to no end and uh so yeah I think people like that should be protected for sure And what happened to James Forrestall? James Forrestall, great, yeah.

So James Forrestall was the secretary of the Navy under FDR. And then under Truman, he was a secretary of defense. And in 1949, he was committed to a naval hospital in Bethesda, Maryland. And he jumped out of the window. And his brother had seen him the day before, said he was totally fine. He was in the middle of transcribing a Sophocles poem. and he was like halfway through the sentence or something. And then his bathrobe was hung on the radiator next to the window that he jumped out of.

So he wasn't, he was killed. He was like, I think he was probably pushed out of the window. And the whole thing is very strange. And people connected to the UFO thing because his direct report was a guy named Admiral Richard Bird, who they say went as part of Operation High Jump. I mean, this is actually definitely a fact. He did go as part of Operation High Jump in 1946. with this like big fleet down the coast of Argentina to Antarctica where people think that the Nazis, you know, have like, you know, these alien bases that, uh, and so, um, and then he, the, the, the lore is that Admiral Bird was confronted with these like, you know, laser shooting saucers or whatever. And so that some people say that Forrestall's death was a result of that, but I have no idea. Other people, I don't know, there are all sorts of conspiracies.

more like yeah but he was definitely I mean well-known conflicts could have been the motivation yeah yeah who knows but um it's a weird it's a weird death for sure do you got anything else chat um yeah the you said the Nazis like there's I there's theories that the Nazis had bases in Antarctica do you think there was a transference I don't know if that's the right word but of technology alien technology during the 1940s Yeah, I mean, people think that maybe with the Nazis, because the Nazis advanced in aerospace more than any other, like, any group of people ever for like in like that 20 year period, you had like they had the best fighter jets. They had like V2s, A4s, like all the best rockets, missiles. And then they also say that about like Roswell, that there was some sort of tech transfer.

Yeah. And I don't know. I don't have like a ton of evidence. There's this guy Philip J. Corso who wrote a book called A Day After Roswell. And he worked on the foreign material exploitation desk, and he was definitely in the Army, and it was at Wright Patterson, and he said that, like, he was in charge of the stuff that had come from Roswell, like, doling it into the civil sector. And so these are things, he says, like, transistors, fiber optics, lasers, Kevlar,

like all came from alien stuff. And it is weird that, like, the Bell Labs transistor, patent I think was like right around that time yeah but it's just I don't know I don't beyond that like story from Corso I don't have a ton of evidence he that Corso though was definitely credible figure who like worked where he said he worked and this guy Straum Thurman who you know was a senator like blurt like I think wrote the foreword to his book or blurbed his book I think he was also like a racist separatist or something but yeah his name sounds familiar so great cosign

but um I got strong on this yeah yeah for sure but yeah no another thing that like I don't have a ton of hard evidence for but

maybe who knows yeah do you think something weird is going on in Antarctica dude it's possible I mean they're definitely like geothermal vents that are like livable

and like have they're a little like you know possibly like 60, 70 degree Fahrenheit plus pockets that like where you can like you know be there so it's possible and then

you have all these myths around like I think this like Naval Admiral told this UFO researcher Linda Bolton How that he went down into this underground base there there's the Admiral Richard Bird stuff where he says he says he says he encountered this pyramid and there is a pyramid

that was on Google Earth that then disappeared on Google Earth and I have a friend who saw the pyramid and went down down there so like that's a thing um there's a lot of stuff like that with google earth where there was like um uh you could you could you could you could see like a structure it looked like a pyramid or a structure in the ocean near malibu yeah point doom yeah yeah yeah there's stuff like that and then a lot of weird stuff with antarctica a ton of weird totally yeah and there's that there's this whistleblower named eric hecker who says that um we have like these high energy weapons that we're testing

on the South Pole and one of them caused the Christ Church earthquake in New Zealand, yeah. He says it's like it emits and detects neutrinos and like he definitely worked for Raytheon and it's like who now, I don't know. Yeah. Has there been a big get together of all the

whistleblowers? That'd be awesome. You know, is that an event that could get put on? That'd be great. That'd be great. Just do a panel. Be like, what do you think? What do you think? And the triangulate the whistle con. Yeah, that's great. Whistle Khan. Because I am blown away

some, I watched that doc on Netflix Phenomenon, I think was the name of it. Oh, that's great. Yeah, James Fox. He's awesome.

I was blown away by how credible all the accounts were. Is that the one that just came out? I don't know when it came out. My fiancee showed it to me.

I think it's recent. I think it's a couple years, yeah. There's one at Southby that I'm like waiting to see that everyone was like this is the most amazing doc, but there was at South By

less spring. Age of Disclosure. Yeah. When is that coming out? I don't know. They've been trying to get it sold and they can't so yeah i don't know what the deal is with that but if they're listening send it to me out she's gonna be like a vimeo link produced by chat yeah yeah yeah yeah i just want a

video i got you got you guys we're like disclosure send me a bootleg yeah yeah yeah which works of art do you think are in your estimation the best uh vision of aliens oh i love that contact have you seen contact bro so good it's a killer movie. And I think Carl Sagan, who, you know, obviously wrote, he wrote pale blue dot, which contact is based on. I think he knew way more shit than people, like, realized. Like, he had a security clearance multiple points in his career. And if you, you, like, learn about the UFO stuff. And then when you rewatch that, you're like, how did he know, like, all these little things? Oh, we got the details right. I think he did. But, like, it's speculative stuff that you hear in modern

contemporary UFO lore but like there's just a lot that kind of lines up there and why do you think he was subtle about telling us that he knew that stuff that's a that's a question that cuts at like why don't we just disclose and it's like maybe it's the thing we were talking about earlier where it's like the government would seed its power somehow or maybe it's like uh ontologically shocking maybe it's just like really like like if it would just be so gnarly for you to like hear. The only thing that bumps me on that is just the mass coordination because there's so many different countries and so many regime changes.

Wouldn't at some point one of them have a different like strategy on it? Yeah, but that, I mean, you see that happening. Like you see the U.S. like treating it differently and then you see, like, people are always like, you would think it would leak. I'm like, yeah, there's like a thousand leaks in the lives. People always say that shit. They're always like, you would think it would leak.

I'm like, like, I've literally talked to people every fucking show and like somebody coming out saying I saw some shit and you see their credential like you know they're not lying about the core credentials so so why are we why do I guess for my last question why despite the fact that we do seem to have so much evidence that it makes more sense to believe there are aliens why are people still split on it um yeah I mean well I think it's the same reason people are split on religion and science and you know you come in with like your own biases and baggage and wanting to believe certain things and people have different personality types that like you just want to disagree with a person rather than the idea or

something yeah or like people fall into like tribes around around everything and then i understand the argument that there's like not a there's something about it that's like weakly entangled with our reality and it's like playing there's a it's a game of cat and mouse it's not this like in your face thing and uh that makes sense given that there's like an intelligence probably on the other side of it but I also understand the frustration of and I totally get like I always like I don't think that you should evangelize like I think like I don't know like when I meet people I don't like tell them I'm like into this stuff like I don't really believe in like trying to like convert people into into these things you know I think if you if you want to like engage with it great but like

I really understand the people who are like I got to pay taxes and like you know I have a family to like you know like that shit's like more real I heard you talk I put to that clip about you talking about like focus on the bottom tier of like the Maslow hierarchy of needs yeah totally and if also if that's not in check and you're using the UFO thing to like escape that then like that's kind of it's like pornography or something yeah it's literally like you're yeah you're trying to short circuit you know the the pain of life yeah it's a good place to end yeah dude you're awesome man it's great talking to you thanks much man thank you guys I appreciate you have me and I'm a big fan of both of your content for a

long time for like years so uh yeah hell yeah it's been a pleasure yeah we're honored to have you on yeah super honored yeah it's so fun to talk about this stuff this is our first like pod where we like really gotten into it so yeah and chad's a huge alien guy yeah i love it i know you yeah one question how is david grush doing is he okay he's good yeah i think uh just curious i think he's frustrated at like the pace at which like things are I think he'd want to see, like, more stuff have come out by this time, given what he came out with. In some ways, it feels like we've taken a step back from him.

Yeah. But, yeah, he's good. And, yeah, hopefully, I think we'll hear from him again. Yeah, I always get curious about guys like him, because he kind of like, even on Broken, he's like, I ruined my career for this. Yeah. And I'm like, I'm always just curious. I'm like, well, what's he doing now?

No, I see a lot of these guys, like, they're like, how do I make money? And, like, what do I, you know, do at this point? Like, you think it's going to be this, like, the world shifts once you come out. And then it's like, half the people believe, half the people don't. It's like, I have to get a job. And it's like, but what can't, what job can he work after having done? You know, it's a rough spot to be in. So, yeah, I'm grateful he did what he did.

Yeah. That was sick. Awesome. Let's go. Thanks, yeah. guys we are brought to you by the legends at brodege brodege is loche for the bros not the pros okay they make if you if you want to get into skincare if you want to make sure your your facial skin care game is on point check out brodeje because it's an all in one formula they've got spf for you

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two round trip flights two night hotel stay two tickets to both warp tour dates in Orlando November 15th and 16th not included tacos and tequila that's on the winner Here's how to enter. Follow at X Brodege X on Instagram, DM the word deep. That's literally at Brodege equals simple. No BS skincare for dudes. DM the word deep to X Brodege X on Instagram to enter. Yeah, that was good. He's a cool guy. He's super cool. I love talking about that stuff. Thing about it is there's so much information out there and there's so many

things to touch on and it's just like it can be, it's also confusing like, um you know there's just uh just with the nature of the internet you know it's just like an influx of information you're like well what how do i know what's real it's tough yeah your brain gets scared where it's like i don't want to open up to all this stuff because like what would that mean but i will say after listening to a lot of stuff when i was driving over here the world felt more full of possibility yeah like i was like oh i'm kind of seeing everything a little different yeah I think too I was like

I might try microdosing again I might do some mushrooms tomorrow I might need it I keep saying I'm going to do them and then I haven't done them for like three years four or five years dude

I got to tell everybody about my Friday last week so you and me were going to perform in Sacramento that night wake up early in the morning spend a great morning with my kids feed them breakfast hanging with my beautiful fiance

just living the dream, listening to music dancing. I take him to school. I drop them off. I come back to the house. I cuddle with my lady when we watch real housewives. Get on an airplane, quick trip, one hour flight. I sit next to a, on one side is a guy who does accounting for cities, which was really interesting to me because I'm curious how they, you know,

what they do with their budgets, where the money goes, how efficiently do they run. Super nice guy, super chatty. The lady next to me wants to get in on it. She's an 80-year-old therapist. Fun lady starts talking about how she's got gummies on the plane. She can't wait to rip them when she lands. She's going to visit her five best friends that have known each other since they were five years old. She's known them for 75 years.

Yeah. And she was just a hoot. She kept telling the accountant guy he's got to smoke weed more. We land. I rent a car. I love renting a car. Feel so free. I go straight to the railroad museum.

Incredible place. Just beautifully designed, beautifully curated. I keep wondering why we're losing. this competition with China in terms of infrastructure and power and all these other big sectors where they just seem to dominate us with their development. And then you see the railroad station and you're like the railroad museum and you're like, oh man, we used to really build stuff. But then you read about it and it was all Chinese people that built it. 90% of the builders of our railroad were Chinese. So I'm like, no wonder they all stay home now.

Now that's why they're kicking her butt. Now we're paying the price. We don't have as many. And then I go to the gym, good workout. go see the state capitol and then i go to the show and man i was nervous because your dad was there but it was fun yeah i was nervous too you did great he loved your show he was cracking up yeah it was a when you when you have it's just you want your family to see your stuff but it's when also when people you know are in the crowd it's just i think for some people they like it um but for me i definitely don't like it No, I don't like it either.

But you did great, and it was fun to watch your dad's shoulders pop up and don't laugh. And then, especially at the Mangina, I know you were nervous about that. I was nervous to show him, the Mangina, yeah. Then my buddy Tom Hall comes to the second show. What a great guy. The best guy. He's chatting our ears off at the end of the second show. I'm like, hey, man, we got to get out here.

So we walk outside and dumb me, I left my car keys in the club. But the door to the mall is far from the club. So I'm banging on it. No one's answering. I call the club. No one answers. Tom Hall's like down in the parking lot He's hey brother I'll give you a ride home

I said no man get out of here all good And yeah I banged on the door for a couple minutes No one answered and then I had to I had to walk downstairs Go around the corner And take a dump outside Did you really At the

Near like the Arden Fair Mall Yeah In Sacramento Yeah dude there's like a chilies by there wow it was all closed I know no I just I'm trying to picture where it was was it behind the chilies

it was like I went one building over and I just threw my back up against the wall and pushed my feet forward and I took a fat dump that's awesome I had no choice man I was literally freaking out what'd you wipe with leaves but hey pro tip that my buddy Alex gave me

when I told him about it a couple days later, use your socks. You don't really need your socks. Damn. So then I did that. Shame. Just feeling like absolute shit. I waddled back up to the club,

started banging on the door, and they opened it. And then I waddled in and grabbed my car keys, wipe my butt in their bathroom. Then went home and just kind of sat on the floor. Damn.

I wanted to tell you right away, but... Yeah, I mean, next time we spoke, I was eating breakfast. Yeah, you're having a good time with your family. So that's why you didn't come to breakfast the next morning? Yeah. I didn't want to see anybody for a while. Yeah, I took about shit. Shit outside.

It's humiliating. I was, like, worried there'd be video of it. No, I think I'll be all right. I chat GBTed. I was like, I feel so much. shame and chat gb2 was like hey man you know being a person is messy this is something that happens to all of us yeah i you know i don't think you should feel shame for it thanks is that the first time you ever shit outside no even if there was video no you'd be like yeah i had to go

yeah it's not like you were jing off no god no and i mean if that's way different if you can see my face in the video i'm like this god damn i mean if there's like hypothetically this isn't going to happen but hypothetically if a video were to circulate i think all the comments would be like oh that poor bastard he just really had to go

you don't think it changes like my political career um I think it makes you more human. Thanks, man. You know, because it makes you, you're like, yeah, I'm one of the people. Sometimes I have to shit outdoors. You could be like, yeah, I've tried being homeless for a little bit to see what it's like, I don't know. Yeah, maybe I'll say that.

That would be hilarious if you're like in a debate and they're like, well, pull up the footage and then it's just you shitting. And then, like, I don't think it would be bad at all. I think it would honestly. Yeah. yeah i was just riding so high that whole day yeah i'm trying to put myself in your shoes and because i feel for you i'm trying to understand how you but i'm trying to understand how you but i'm trying to understand how yeah i get it but i think to everyone else when you got to go you got to go I just hope they have a bathroom

Yeah Did you tell your wife? Yeah What'd she say? She's still with me She laughed She wasn't that turned off You know I told some of the guys I golfed with on Sunday

And they were like oh yeah it's crazy And then they moved on Yeah And I was like maybe we all have Taking a dump outside before I mean Your public Deucing stories are some of my favorite

stories. Yeah, I didn't think I was going to add another chapter to that book. Yeah, you thought fatherhood would be the end of that? It's probably going to happen more now. This thing came on me fast and I had no recourse. I was banging on that door. I was like, please answer. Please open, please. I just went, all right, fine. So can you explain where it dropped? Was it on asphalt or bushes. Like a building, dirt, like dirt extension of the building, road. My back against the building on the dirt bushes around me, because I wanted some cover in case anyone drove through. Right, right. Did they go and drive through? No, but when I came back after I went back in the club and got my keys, I saw security driving around in a car. And I was literally in my head. I'm like,

Should I go pick up the dump and put it away? And then I was like, I probably should, but I was like, securities here, and I don't want to get caught for this thing cleaning up the dump. Like, don't go back to the scene of the crime. Yeah. Just get home. Just get out of there. Yeah.

I think he did the right thing. Every step of the way? Yeah. Well, I really care about everyone who listens to this show. if it makes you feel any better I've done it multiple times usually in the woods not like a plaza

but you know it's my second plaza should we end there yeah we'll see you guys next week we got rocana on big uh congressman coming on the podcast next week rocana

still um so yeah send in your questions if you got questions for row It's really nice You want to know What are to do And where to go We're here

Someone's before you There's much about What's been for you Go in deep Go in deep Go in What's there is I'm going to

You're empty It's your intensity You know,