Going Deep with Chad and JT - EP 423 - Noelle Perdue - P*rn Historian

Episode Date: January 21, 2026

Today we are joined by Noelle Perdue! A writer and p*rn historian who breaks down topics most people are scared to talk about or may think is taboo. We connect the dots from old school media to modern day consumption of p*rn plus how human interaction changed during the internet takeover of the industry. Noelle also goes deep on how p*rn shapes culture, relationships, and even government decisions. She reassures the bros "Its okay to be weird" and "just because you watch the movie HEAT doesn't mean you want to do a heist." We talk about the NFL playoffs and Chad's viewing experience from a plane. We end with a dank call -  how long would it take you to eat a whole grocery store if there were no expiration dates?  Check out more about Noelle here: https://www.noelleperdue.com/ CHECK OUT OUR NEW YOUTUBE SERIES: https://youtu.be/miQfj3RzJlQ?si=Vz9yqV8fwEcr6hIZ We are live streaming a fully unedited version of the pod on Twitch, if you want to chat with us while we're recording, follow here: https://www.twitch.tv/chadandjtgodeep Grab some dank merch here:https://appreeshapparel.com/ Come see us on Tour! Get your tix - http://www.chadandjt.com TEXT OR CALL the hotline with your issue or question: 323-418-2019(Start with where you're from and name for best possible advice) Check out the reddit for some dank convo: https://www.reddit.com/r/ChadGoesDeep/ Thanks to our Sponsors: Talkiatry: Online Psychiatry that prioritizes YOU! Go to https://www.talkiatry.com/godeep  and get the help you need today! PRODUCTION & EDITS BY: Jake Rohret

Stokers, welcome to this episode. So pumped to have you on. We got Noel Purdue on. Excellent guests. So fired it up. It's a banger episode. So stoked you guys are here. Make sure you like, subscribe, do all that good stuff to keep boosting this new YouTube channel.

Speaking to YouTube, we got our new series. Episode 2 just premiered. So psyched on it. We got Bobby Lee on the episode. Make sure you check it out if you want to get stoked. Also, tour dates coming up. I'm going to be in Chicago next. That show is nearly sold out.

So if you haven't gotten tickets, make sure you get them now. I'm hoping to get a late show, but we will see. And then we got my one-man show is also going to be in L.A. on January 31st at Jamming the Van. Then J.T. and I are going to be in Bozeman. Three shows. Make sure you get on that. Then I will be in Denver. And then we got Greeley, Colorado, Casper, Wyoming, Colorado Springs. J.T. and I will be in Washington, D.C., March 12th through the 14th.

Then Cincinnati, Columbus, back in L.A. for my one-man show. And then San Francisco, March 25th. And then San Diego, April 9th. Get your tickets at chat and JT.com. Let's start the freaking show. Stokers of Stoke Nation. This is Chad Kroger coming in live. Broadcasting from Los Angeles, California.

I'm here with my compadre, Jean-Talmers. Boom clap, Stokers. And we're here with our guest, Noel Perdue. Welcome. Thank you so much. Happy to be here. We're stoked. So you're a writer?

I'm a writer. You're a public intellectual. Wow. I mean, your words not mine. What is your subject of expertise? I call myself a porn historian, which is sort of made up, but has become real. And most of my work is about how pornography and history of pornography has influenced culture, legislation, and technology. Right.

And then so how would you, how far back do you go with your porn history? I tend to focus on internet pornography or the rise of internet. Sorry, I guess like the end of the golden age, I would say, and the beginning of internet porn. I find a really influential period for legislation and kind of just like cultural dynamics around pornography. So I tend to kind of focus on that region. I talk about golden age. I talk about pre-Goldene Age a little bit. I talk a lot about kind of...

And what are the boundaries for years on those ages? Golden Age is 70s and 80s, so it's like classic. Like Deep Throat and then like the taboo stuff. Yeah, Deep Throat is a classic Golden Age movie. The stuff that would show in theaters and kind of like they would have premieres in porn theaters, the Golden Age porn industry worked pretty much in tandem with the mainstream film industry. And then with internet pornography, it kind of changed the entire economy of porn. And that had so many ripple effects that it tends to be what I focus on.

Just because it shifted the behavior so much, like the way that it was performed. Like there was no public element anymore. And it was more ubiquitous, but it was more private at the same time. Are you referencing my 4-4 piece? I just wrote about this. Did you? I did. Yeah.

So, I mean, yeah, I have been reading your stuff, so maybe it was, it is, I'm quoting you. Potentially. Or, I mean, it's true, though. I think that one of the really interesting things that has happened is, is that pornography. And at one point, internet porn, and now I would argue, kind of generative technologies are creating kind of new systems of privacy, particularly around sexual desire and fantasy. So porn consumption in, the kind of 70s or 80s, you would have to interact with people if you wanted to get porn. Like go to a theater? You would have to go to a theater. Oh, and go to a store. You'd have to go to a store. You'd have to ask to go behind the curtain.

You would, you know, maybe order a VHS, things like that. You would just be, you would have to interact with somebody. And then with internet porn, that kind of became a really isolated experience. And there's even kind of like you can draw lines between, um, the desktop computer, which had a history, a browsing history. And was often shared with family members or friends. It was shared. It was like a semi-public machine.

And then now we have personal computers, personal devices. So even like the concept of somebody seeing your browser history is kind of old-fashioned. And now we have these generative technologies where, you know, it's not even people making what you're watching. you know, like from the user experience, you're not interacting with anybody whatsoever. Yeah, I find that really interesting reading your work and listening to you that you're a big supporter of porn. Like you think it's human expression, it's art, it's healthy for people to find out what their fantasies are and to kind of interact with those fantasies. And then you've done a switch, though, where you feel like AI is going to provide too much privacy around fantasy and it removes too much of the human element. But it was interesting to me because I've heard that same argument around the porn you are supportive of,

where it felt like when I was growing up, that was the argument that was made against porn was that it was making us not pursue sex in real life, that it was hindering our ability to connect with another person. But you feel like that was maybe overstated, but with AI, you think it's actually going to happen. Yeah, I mean, I think that those arguments can be true for some. some people's consumption of pornography, particularly if people are watching or consuming porn without kind of like a measured understanding of the porn industry and porn performers as people specifically. I think that that is true. If you don't see porn performers as people, absolutely porn consumption can affect the way that you interact with people. But for me, the answer to that

is to have a better understanding of porn performers and the industry as a human industry. Whereas with generative content, there really is no human element. There's no ability to humanize it because it is inhuman. And that is where I think we've kind of crossed over a boundary. I did see somebody in chat say some people still watch porn on public computers, and they said that their mom works at the library, and that's how they know that. And I just want to say that my mom also works at a library, and that's how I know that. I do agree that people do that still, but it is very, very first.

frowned upon and you will be kicked out of the library yeah I go to the library I'm I go to I go to but there's not a ton of porn at the library I go to no they try to they they're policing that a bit yeah I mean there's definitely stuff that you could bring home I think that um watching porn on on the public screens is is definitely frowned upon and I frowned upon it any you know anywhere that's a public space like I think sexual, anything of a sexual nature in a space where children could be is a big no-no. To be explicit about that. Yeah.

And if you're listening to this pot, it's going to be heavy on the porn and sex talk. So if you're with your kiddos, maybe put the earmuffs on them or change the channel. Yes. It's interesting what you said, though, that like, so you think the kind of negative consequence of watching too much porn is forgetting that the porn stars themselves are performers and artists and have like a life beyond. No, I don't think that that is a consequence of watching porn. I think that is a consequence of very poor education around sex, sexuality, and pornography consumption.

And pornography is a media product. There is almost no conversation or education around pornography. And I think that that is a result of that lack of communication. It's not because of watching porn that you lose the ability. Like that is something that has to be developed kind of even outside of your actual consumption of porn. Right. So like a way to develop a more healthy relationship to it would be more conversation around like how it's made? Definitely. I think that more conversation around how it's made, I think more curiosity. I think many people consume porn in this really kind of specific and compartmentalized way where it's just like when they want to jerk off.

And like as soon as they finish, you know, there's that kind of thing of like, like, Get it away from me. Yeah, get it away from me. And even like there's some shame or feeling weird about what you're watching. And I think that's a shame. And I think that that is sort of like a symptom of being divorced from what you're consuming. If there's like some level of cognitive dissonance between what you're consuming and how you're thinking about it. So just generally, I think more curiosity, actually looking into the performers that you like, you know, outside of the 30-second clip you're watching on Pornhub.

Sure. background research. What does you like to do in our spare time and stuff? Sure. I'm a completist, so I would do stuff like that. But that gap that you're talking about between like being drawn to it and then wanting to get away from it, do you think that was a consequence of just like societal development or do you think there's some kind of evolutionary function to that? I don't think that there's an evolutionary function to feeling disgusted by your own sexuality. I think there might be because it's so persistent and it's been around for so long. I mean, I think, like, how do you mean it's persistent?

I'm not Richard Dawkins or something, so I don't know exactly how I would prove it on a true level. But I wonder if there is some kind of, like, mechanism in having shame that allows you to do better in your life. Okay, so you're arguing that post-nut clarity is sort of an evolutionary mechanism. I'm kind of, yeah. I disagree with that. I think that it's certainly probably an evolutionary advantage should not be like singularly sex-minded for sure. But I don't think that the sense of disgust and shame that you have

or you're expressing around sex is productive. I think it's destructive, actually. And, you know, ideally if you have a positive sexual relationship with another person, with a form of media, you're not feeling disgusted by yourself at having that relationship. Yeah, no, I agree with that. You had a great quote in one of your pieces about, for you the most perverted kind of sex was missionary eye contact with someone you love. Yeah, I stand by that.

Really? Why? Absolutely. I think I like to analyze what makes something erotic. Like, what are the mechanisms that make something erotic? And risk is a huge mechanism of eroticism. And I think that there is no risk your sex than you can have, that you can have other than with somebody who you, like, truly love that could, like, ruin your life. Kind of thing.

Like, there's so much deep vulnerability in building a relationship with somebody and sex so often is an expression. of that vulnerability. It's an inherently vulnerable place to be physically. And then when you kind of add this high level emotional vulnerability on top of that, that's perverted. That's true perversion, you know? And you mean that because of the amount of risk involved, because you're really putting your life on the line when you do that. And that's what makes it good. Like that's what makes sex with somebody that you love so good is, I believe, that sense of risk. of like you are holding, you know, my, my well-being in your hands.

So what do you mean by perversion? I think just like, you sick, fuck. You get it. I have a pervert necklace. I'm very pro-proversion. This is like a rebrand that you're doing on the, it's sort of like. I had this for like seven years. Not your own personal rebrand.

I mean, on the word pervert. I think I, like, definitely still have mixed use. Like, I understand that pervert has, has like negative connotations. but I have adopted pervert pretty enthusiastically. Absolutely. So do you think it's kind of like having a positive, positive sort of having a positive mindset around your sexuality? Kind of.

I'm kind of pervert neutral, I would say. Like I think a lot of what I define as like my own perversion is a product of like deep. neurosis and like the things with I that I struggle with personally that kind of like bleed into my own relationship to sex and sexuality and like I have a complicated relationship to it. It's not like something that I find empowering necessarily where I'm not rebranding it as empowering. I think it's just like true for me. And also there I mean there is a little bit of an element of empowerment because sometimes in my work I talk about I struggle. I struggle sometimes with what people kind of expect my relationship to sex and sexuality might be,

which I think people anticipate it to be very free and casual and open and relaxed. And I'm none of those things. I'm a deeply, deeply unchill person, highly neurotic. And I have a very complicated relationship with sex, actually. And I think that kind of embracing the term pervert is, almost like preeminently kind of anticipating that I'm not going to meet somebody's expectations that like I'll almost like be in some way like a bit disappointing in terms of like what people are hoping from me and and yeah being a pervert is kind of like situating yourself

as as something unexpected which is a relief. Right. And the quote that I gave was part of an article you wrote about Brian Johnson, who's the longevity guy, the billionaire who's trying to live forever and conquer death. And you kind of drew a correlation between him trying to conquer death and also, which I wasn't even aware of this like subculture, that like tech bros are really into BDSM. And you thought like him trying to conquer death, which was kind of like him trying to control risk, that that's why they're so into BDSM is that these guys are kind of control freaks and they're trying to like metric out any risk when they have sex.

Well, I think that it is like truly fascinating. Yeah, there is a real culture of, I guess, like, non-normative sex, BDSM-heavy sex in the Bay Area, which when I went to the Bay Area and I did experience that, a lot of people were asking me about and they were like, is it true? Hey, is it true? And that was kind of like what people were most titillated by. And also they were so like unsure about it. And I find, and I said this in the article, I find kind of like weird sex to be a boring point of analysis

for a group of people or a person. I think that there's a lot of reasons why people like to have non-normative sex. But I think in this case, it is really interesting that it's paired with this very intense desire to cheat death and become immortal. And so even the terminology that they use is that they want to solve death. They want it to no longer exist. And obviously death is like the biggest risk.

And they're so singularly focused on eliminating the biggest risk, but they are so passionate about introducing this kind of like play-pretend risk into their intimate lives. And yeah, I do find that there absolutely is a correlation to that because I am a big believer in that. risk is what makes sex fun, you know, it's, it's vulnerability, its intention, it's, it's, um, you know, anticipation. And if you remove all the risk out of sex or out of life, it's not interesting anymore. You go crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not, I, I, I, I, I have a

issue with the immortal, the desire to be immortal. I just think it's, well, it's, it's obviously unnatural. I've always, I just don't, I think there's a quote that they're like, living is hard, dying is the easy part. Yeah. And I don't, to me, I just don't understand why someone would want to live forever, you know, it just doesn't, it's a part of life. Yeah, I think I have so much death anxiety, which is kind of what I explored in that article, is that I actually do really struggle with, with health anxiety and the concept of death. And I've had like a couple major kind of grief experiences in the last little while that were definitely transformative for me.

And part of I think how I was able to move through grief is kind of really consciously trying to accept death, even though it feels very unnatural to me. So I think part of my criticism of the longevity movement, like the immortality movement is that I, like, see myself in it. But I see this, like, this part of myself that I'm really trying to, like, talk down, like, 24-7. And, like, I'm in conversation with this instinct. And I'm trying to move away from it all the time. Because that part of you would just want to survive in any cost and would sacrifice

other things that might be better or more meaningful. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't live my life. Right. If I gave into every impulse to protect myself, I wouldn't do anything. Right, you can't start living until you just accept that you're going to die, basically. Yeah. Yeah.

Otherwise, you're just clinging to something. Yeah. I feel that. Oh, David, that's interesting. Someone in the chat just quoted David Foster Wallace. Everything I've ever let go of has claw marks in it. It's a good quote. And he had a great, consider the lobster starts with a great piece about porn.

And him going to the Avian Awards. You go to all the awards and stuff, right? I do. What is that like? Like, does it feel like the Oscars? I was at one of the award shows last night. So this is fresh. Yes.

I've never been to the Oscars, so I wouldn't know if it feels like the Oscars. Yeah, I guess, I guess does it feel like, like the way that he framed it was that there, and it might have been different in that era too. I think in a lot of ways porn has become more mainstreamed in a good way where it's not as like underbelly. And one of the emotions he like clued in on was that the porn stars were often throwing it back at people. Like they were like, yeah, like,

I'm going to go to hell, but all my friends will be there. And there was this kind of like, yeah, like society doesn't like us, but we're all in it together. But I feel like we've kind of gone past that. So does it feel like more of a pure celebration now? I definitely think that there is still a tremendous element of throwing it back. I think that I would say the most kind of striking part about last night, which was the XMAs, so it's XBIS Awards.

And there was one scene where. one of the performers was a recently fired university chancellor. Whoa. Yeah, I would love if we could look up his name. A recently fired university chancellor who was fired for participating in the adult industry. This guy's a man for all seasons. Yes, and he won, he won this XMA award, and he gave, he went up and he accepted and he gave this beautiful speech about how much he believed that everybody,

should be able to be who they are and do what they do. And it was really kind of a beautiful experience. And he was kind of an older man who was relatively new. It seemed like to adult, at least like I had never encountered him before. But he gave this amazing speech. It was so amazing to see him win this award. The crowd went absolutely wild. Like people were like standing up for him, clapping, screaming.

People really responded well to it. And it was really cool to see. And that was definitely the highlight of the night. That sounds empowering, too. Like, they're almost trying to bridge that gap that I was kind of speaking to. It was very empowering. And I definitely think that right now, pornography is such a hot bun issue. And I think that we're kind of experiencing a bit of like a regression in terms of people's relationship to pornography.

So I wish I could say that, you know, nobody feels like it's an us versus them thing anymore. but people really do still feel that. Yeah, that actually, now that I'm thinking about it, you do see that, like, with a lot of the, like, no-fab stuff that kind of has gone louder and stronger, and it's, like, aversion to porn that, yeah, it's all about, like, retaining your seat, and pleasure for pleasure's sake is bad and weakening,

and then, I mean, like, how do you feel, like, so I have my own history with it. I'm, like, a porn addict. I've been an out of recovery for, like, 15 years, and there's times where I've felt like, when I've been in meetings, I'm like, guys, I think we're being too hard on ourselves. And there's other times where I desperately needed it. Like, I got to a point where I was like suicidal just because I was living my life in way too hedonistic of fashion. So I definitely see both sides.

But like, do you see that there is like deleterious effects to porn watching? I think that the conversation around porn addiction is really interesting. I've had kind of a change of heart. I would say with the concept of porn addiction. A few years ago, I was kind of like, I don't know, I guess like a bit of an edge lord with it, or I was very kind of black and white on the concept of porn addiction, and I was very loud about it kind of quote-unquote not being real, which I think is an element of the discussion that happens,

and definitely something that comes. often from the adult industry. And I think that kind of what that means specifically is that, and I do believe this, pornography is not inherently addictive. It is on an inherently addictive material. Right. It's not crack or something like that. It's not crack.

Exactly. There's no like porn, not even wants, like kind of thing going on. And I think that it's important to maintain that because there are a lot of kind of often Christian far right organizations that do make that argument. that pornography is an inherently addictive substance and not even once. Can you watch, you know, a pretty girl take off her clothes? And it's like, you know, it's all downhill from there. People really make that argument and I really disagree with that. I believe that pornography is not an inherently addictive product. However, I do recognize that a lot of people struggle with

pornography consumption. That is undeniable, absolutely. And for me, I think that like I want to kind of of give space for that, those experiences and those struggles that people do have with pornography addiction. But for me, I often kind of compare it to something like food addiction, where I believe it's so much more kind of influenced by the shame around sex and pornography and the relationship that people have with that, with the concept of, of them. them being sexual people, with them consuming pornography. It has so much more to do with that than it does with kind of, again, like porn being uninherently addictive product.

And similar to something like food addiction or disordered food consumption, you never... You've got to learn how to do it in a healthy way. You have to learn how to do it in a healthy way. And learning how to do it in a healthy way, learning how to develop a positive relationship with food and I also believe with pornography. is in many ways about kind of removing the power that that has over you. Yeah, it's stigmatizing yourself is unhealthy. That was an issue I did have with,

I mean, because I do credit recovery with pulling me out of my darkest moment, but there were times where I thought it was hurting me because I just kept reinforcing this idea that I was like bad. And that if I did this thing, I was hurting myself. And at a certain point, I was like, I think it's hurting me more to keep telling myself that than to just do this than to just have a problem.

basically and there was like a kind of intersecting point yeah but but i do still grapple with it i see both sides well so what do you think when and i've heard you talk about this a little bit but if you could amplify on it like when you hear tucker carlson asked nick flintos like and watching porn makes you gay what is that and that's such an amazing quote i love that quote too yeah that's what does that even mean i love it yeah what does that even mean, I love it. What is that? I want that on a shirt.

But I do, when I was watching a ton of intense webcam porn, I did, no, but I just kept looking for a bigger hit. And then so I did look at gay porn a little bit. It didn't work for me. I found it to be just not erotic. But I did see an addiction, a lot of dudes who were straight guys. They were like, I'm straight. I have a wife.

but I went so deep into my sex addiction that I ended up sleeping with trans hookers and stuff like that and I think they attributed that less to them being more queer and more to them being deep in an addiction that was causing them to chase bigger which I think is fascinating

and I actually think that's such a sad way to look at it it is too because again it's also saying like well so trans people are like riskier in some way so it's giving me a bit of It's putting a value judgment on that. Yeah, exactly. It's a very bizarre kind of like escalator they've built around people and sleeping with people. Yeah, I think that that is really a shame because I would say that something that pornography

offers is the ability for people to explore their sexuality without having to involve another person necessarily right off the bat. You can kind of test the waters. It's like practicing in the dojo a little bit before you take it to the streets. Or just like exploring. like being able to explore kind of the rich vein of human sexuality that can be really fun and interesting and at times strange. And I think that that's something that I really love about pornography. I think that's one of its best qualities.

And I think to have an understanding of you kind of maybe exploring what works for you and interpreting that as something that is, you. you know, bad or evil or wrong or that's hurting you, I think that's a real shame. I think that's a real missed opportunity. I also think, you know, I understand that because people develop dopamine fixations on pornography, because it is a highly stimulating product or material, I understand the kind of like belief that if somebody is really leaning on pornography as an element of depersonalization or distraction, you might be looking for something, quote, unquote, more intense to trigger that feeling. And that can kind of develop that like escalation approach.

But again, I think that that is a result of somebody really deeply needing distraction, needing to feel kind of surprise or needing to feel this like high stimulation that isn't inherently about pornography. Like people have that same relationship with other forms of media, with other stimulus. And I think if you are looking to really kind of escape your life with any kind of material, I think that that is something that should be explored. But I don't think that that's something that is inherent to pornography consumption. And I also like, I do encourage people to give themselves a bit of grace when it comes to watching porn

and also maybe watching porn that they didn't expect themselves to like or be interested in. Sure. I think that's okay. You know, like, you can be weird. And it's actually really normal to be like a little weird about what you want. Do you think that because there's all this discussion about banning porn and stuff like that, like the Tucker Carlson thing, do you think that what's really needed is just a cultural shift where it's a little more open and a little bit?

Basically what you're saying too is risk, you know, heightens eroticism. So if we ban it, it's kind of like prohibition. Like it probably, do you think it'd worsen the problem? I think it already has. Absolutely. I think that, you know, all of the attempts that are happening right now to control pornography are really empowering, you know, the elements of pornography that ostensibly they are trying to snuff out. Like for example, I think age verification bills are a great example of this because the only sites that are complying with age verification bills are the good porn sites. The porn sites that are interested in, you know, following the rules in ethical practices, in doing best by their consumers and following the laws, et cetera.

etc. And, you know, who's not complying with age verification bills is all of the tube sites that are filled with illegal stolen on consensual content. So, you know, it's not like people are not going to be watching porn. People will always be able to find porn, but these bills make it very difficult for companies who want to do it properly to do so. It actively dissentivizes that. Why is that? Because these age, are you familiar with the age verification? Of course, yeah. It's kept me from logging on a couple of times. Well, that's exactly what happens is, you know, a lot of people are very reasonably not comfortable with giving their full government identification to random sites. And you have to do a face scan, don't you? You have to do

Yeah, very, very invasive, yeah, biometric scanning. Exactly. And, you know. Even a horn dog like me, I'm not doing it, dude. I'm sorry, yeah. No, and I think that that's entirely reasonable. I think it's a tremendous government overstep. Many of these bills have, you know, little to no regulation on what these often

third party data collection tech companies are allowed to do with that information. It's very scary. It's truly, it's going against so. many, you know, constitution rights. It's building out this surveillance state. Yes. But is it also because they're surveilling you at your most vulnerable. So the amount of like leverage they would have on you is basically unthinkable?

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that it is apt to be nervous about a government that is pushing this data collection, this, this bio data collection. and at the very same time, you know, passing these bills, these legislative processes and also making it very clear that non-normative sex and sexuality, queer sexuality, trans people, you know, anything to do with that is not only heavily frowned upon by the government, but often potentially criminalized. And politicians have said that, right? that the superficial plan is to build in age verification so that they'll keep minors from looking at porn, but their actual intention is just to make porn illegal. Yes, that's very transparent. They have said that openly.

That's part of Project 2025. Many things in Project 2025 have already gone through. Yeah, politicians are very, very open about how they just want to make porn illegal, which I think is fascinating because it's also, you know, the government and the government and, and the legal system has never been able to effectively even decide what pornography is. There's that Stuart Potter quote, right? Yeah, I know when I see it. Jenks.

Exactly. And that is, you know, a huge part of this is, you know, what is classified as pornographic. And right now what we're seeing is a lot of direct correlation between just trans people existing or like kind of gender nonconformacy. existing and pornography or like the obscene quote unquote. So a great example of this is the drag ban in Texas a few years ago, a couple years ago. Initially when they wanted to ban drag, it was labeled unconstitutional because it is, freedom of expression. And then they kind of went back and they retooled it to be an anti-obscenity bill and that passed. So it's, you know,

What gets classified as obscene has always been highly politicized. You know, back in the 1950s, it was gay people. It was interracial marriage. All these kind of, at any point, quote-unquote, non-normative sexualities or relationships have been labeled obscene. And as we're saying, we're kind of slipping, I think, back into that. And what is the effect of the age verification? Like, how has there been an increase in porn conception in those states,

or are people just circumnavigating those sites now? Are there any studies on that? It's very difficult to track that. A lot of people are using VPNs. They want to ban VPNs as well, which is extremely dangerous. Huge overreach of government surveillance. VPN services, yeah, a lot of people are just going on illegal sites filled with non-consensual content.

But it's very difficult to track. And this is also kind of the thing that's really difficult is kind of as you both mentioned, is that like with prohibition, it's not like it actually changes anything. Everything just kind of goes underground. And that's really not, I think, the direction that we should be moving. And so you're worried that if we do put this system in place where there's age verification across the board, not only will it be unethical in terms of the surveillance it builds for the government, but it'll also push people to go to sites that have more unethical porn on them.

Yes, absolutely. And then, okay, so, and one of the sites that you mentioned is being more ethical is Pornhub. You mentioned that they make everyone sign a 2257, which is some kind of like, is that to correct? Yeah, so, I mean, PornHub is really interesting. I used to work for Porn Hub at this point forever ago. And when I worked for Pornhub, it was, quite a controversial site because it was unverified. So people could upload. This is what I want to tell me because Layla McElwitt. I'm sure you're familiar with her. Very familiar with Layla

Michaelweight. Yeah. And so she she's been on Theo Vaughn and Chris Williamson and basically said that there's tons of like genuine sexual assault content on porn hub. There's underage people on porn hub. And she's she had one really potent quote where she said it's not a porn site. It's a crime scene. But then I've heard you and Siri Dahl on another podcast, talk about how Porn Hub is actually doing things by the book. So I was just kind of curious how you would address it. At one point, about five years ago, which is when I worked for Porn Hub and it was controversial, even kind of interpersonally for me.

But I'm definitely big into kind of like the concept of internet freedoms. And at points in my career, I've been a bit more of an edge lord about that. And I've labeled myself more of like an internet anarchist, which I don't necessarily believe anymore. And part of that was to do with, I worked at Porn Hub when it was unverified. And definitely when Pornhub was unverified, it was a tube site. It was an aggregate site. So it hosted a lot of pirated, non-consensual content because it did not require verification from uploaders. You just needed an email address so people would, you know, pull from

other sites or people would upload, you know, non-consensual content, et cetera, et cetera. Image-based sexual abuse material is the correct term. And then six years ago, I guess, now, porn have made it so that now it's completely verified. So everybody requires a 2257. If you're in the video, you've signed a 2257, which is the model release and consent form. Everybody needs photo identification. So it's now like a very highly monitored platform where everybody has to agree. If it's on there, there's some kind of ethical framework. There are multiple frameworks to make sure that people who are on there have consented to.

So without making it trashing her then, is she just speaking to like an outdated kind of? I think you can trash her. I don't want to make your thing about. about her. Don't be scared of trashing it. But she was talking about these things recently, but you're saying that's, or I guess I'm saying, that's an outdated thing that she's talking about? It is.

It's tremendously outdated. It's also, you know, Layla McAweight has ties to Exodus Cry. I think she's fully involved with Exodus Cry. What's Exodus Cry? Exodus Cry, it was at some, at one point, it was a like a purity organization, sexual purity organization. They classify Swimsuit Illustrated as pornography. They used to have a contract that they would offer as materials that, you know, it was anti-masturbation, anti-sex.

It's a very deeply anti-sex religious organization. And absolutely, it's very frustrating to see how little that motivation, that obvious motivation. factors into this rhetoric that she's spewing. I have a question that might sound dumb, but it is something I've wondered. Backroom casting couch, is it legit? Or are they actors? They're actors.

They are actors. Everybody's an actor. So sorry, guys. You're talking about the verification process. And I was like, you know, there's... Everybody's an actor. I'm so sorry. There hasn't been many uploads as of late.

I'm like, I wonder if you know. No, I mean, the casting couch is fascinating because it is like an entire genre of pornography. Um, that is obviously built on like this idea that this is the thing. This is where it gets messy because it's like I,

I try not to like shy away too much from porn criticism because definitely the fact that like, the entire genre of casting couch, which I like the genre of casting couch. Me too. But it, you know, hinges on this idea of like, of like, somebody being, like, tricked. Yeah. You know, it's like, it's a bit like, you know. And there's a lot of stuff about porn that's a little bit, ooh.

And I think that, like, how I approach it is from the strong belief that I think that pornography is a reflection of human sex and sexuality. And I think that that can be so beautiful and interesting and transformative. And I think that there are a lot of elements. of human sexuality that we haven't addressed that are, you know, not to use the P word, but problematic or just, you know, influenced by dominant power structures, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. And yeah, so I guess you're suggesting, too, that ethical porn isn't necessarily the sex

it's depicting. It's how that porn was made. Yeah. I mean, I think that there are so many different conversations around, like, what is ethical. I think that you can really kind of go broad with it and say that, you know, like anything that lends itself to, like any kind of recreation of power structure is unethical. Like, somebody could make that argument.

I mean, they do about, like, you know, a non-pornographic film as well, right? Like, they'll be like, oh, like, dirty Harry was like a fascist movie or even like Ferris Bueller is just like a kind of a Reagan dream of like no responsibility. Yeah, and people make that type of media criticism all the time, and they're welcome to do that with pornography as well. I, you know, maintain that I kind of like the casting couch stuff. But everybody is welcome to have like any, to draw any lines that they want to, you know. I'm not going to force them to watch it.

But definitely, I think when people think about ethical porn and porn ethics, for me, that is like a labor rights conversation. My personal definition of ethical porn is pornography that's been produced ethically. And what's your view on porn if you're in a relationship? Porn consumption, if you're in a relationship. What do you think is acceptable? Do you think you should talk about with your partner? I think you should talk about it. I think people have really kind of vastly differing understandings of pornography and comfort levels with pornography.

I think that it is something that you should talk about pretty early on, because there are some people that view watching pornography as cheating. And, you know, personally, I don't believe that, but also people can draw any boundaries they want for themselves and what they look for in a partner. And that's just kind of up to you and who you. you're trying to be in a relationship with. Yeah. Agreed.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't want to go to, I don't know if she. Tell us. Come on. We have a conversation, but I don't know if she wants me to talk about it. That's fair. You don't have to reveal her secrets.

I can talk about it. I can talk about it. But yeah, no, I was just like, you know, I was like, I was like, I was like, it's not if you're, to me, I'm like, if you're in relationship and you're watching. porn. It's not, you know, it can be because you're like, you know, have a wandering eye or whatever, but my thought was like you just want to see it to heighten the pleasure. It's not because you're searching for something else. Does that make sense? Yeah. I think if you watch like a heat, I don't think you want to rob banks. You know what I mean? There's a thrill from watching like

a theater version of it. Yeah. that's like expertly done. That, yeah, that was my view on it. Yeah, it's a fantasy. And I think that some people also kind of use pornography as a tool in their relationships to kind of like amplify sexual desire or if they're like not really feeling in the mood, but they want to be in the mood. Maybe you can watch a little porn.

A lot of couples watch porn together. I tried that. It's never worked. I find that my partner never likes what I like watching. No, well, that's the risk. Yeah. And then I'm like, you know, it's almost like when. you show a friend a movie they don't like it.

Yeah. And it makes you not think it's a good movie anymore. And then you're like, never mind, this is mine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think that here's, here's my tip for any, any, um, boys watching that want to watch men, any men watching. Yeah. It's a good refrain.

Whoa. Um, I want to watch porn with their, their girlfriends. Try to see what your girlfriend likes first. Let, I think that you really have to, to, to go with what she's into. Yeah. And, and maybe, like, um, take it from there, don't like come in hot with the like, you know, I watched one once where it was a hentai where the, the, she was an escalator, an elevator, sorry, she was in an elevator and

the higher, the elevator went up, the bigger her boobs got. Wow, that's cool. They were like, just like unbelievably big. And then when the elevator went back down, they like shrunk again. It's like a cool Charlie and the chocolate factory. Exactly, exactly, which like, obviously I'm like... I'd watch that movie. Yeah, I'm 10 years into like being in this industry. So like what I now like kind of watch or have a general understanding of is, is like definitely really niche. And I definitely would not be like, hey, you want to watch what who's in my artistry?

You made a really cool point that especially now with just how many different versions of porn there are, that like the really high level porn is actually. not as sexualized as just regular porn, that it becomes so much more about the niche. Yes. Yeah. This is something that's really interesting, and I think it lends itself to this conversation of how difficult it is to classify pornography in legislation is because, you know, when you get into fetish pornography, something that I've noticed in kind of researching kinks and niche porn, is that when somebody first starts out making pornography for a fetish community, it'll be pretty recognizable as kind of quote unquote normal porn with an element of fetish. I usually talk about giantess pornography when I talk about this because often when a creator

is first starting out, it'll be sexy. It'll be like an obviously sexy video. Maybe the giant woman will be naked or she'll be. be like rubbing the little guys on herself, you know, it's, it's adjacent to sex in a way that you can recognize. And then often when you kind of go deeper and deeper and deeper into this fetish, for example, with giant test content, it becomes, you know, there's something else entirely. Like it's often non-nude. It's often much more about like things like, for example, soft boar, which is about eating the little people. And it's stuff that you can put

on YouTube technically. A lot of it is on YouTube, actually. And it's, but it's pornography. It's actually, it's, it's, it's somebody going deeper into an understanding of the porn community they're serving than they had before, but somehow it's becoming, quote, quote, less pornographic. Yeah. It's like that Foucault quote where he said, like, with sex, I'm trying to turn my whole

body into like one sexual organ. Kind of. Yeah. You're trying to turn that, that giant lady into the sex organ or something. Foucault. I yeah so do you in in your estimation then when we're talking about the government being restrictive around this stuff do you think they would ban stuff like that too like if it was just a girl in a bathing suit eating food and there was guys who were into that for the sounds the visual whatever the shame around for whatever the combination of stimulation was would they ban that too well I think that that's where it gets really tricky is that is that how would you even draw that line you know how would you draw that line without making it illegal for, you know, any tall woman to post on the internet. Like, like, it's like, with all of these decisions of, like, choosing to censor this type of

content, that type of content, there is such a ripple effect of it affecting so many other people kind of just like by, by the nature of how difficult it is to actually kind of, like, word this legislation. Do you think there should be any legislation around AI porn or? sex robots, stuff like that. I hate AI porn. Yeah. I've, yes.

I've never, I'll see ads for it and I'm like, why would I watch this? I guess I could understand. Maybe if it's like an animated thing, sort of like anime maybe, but. Keep talking. You might find your way too, thing. Yeah. You're getting there. Just a nice animated, you know, behole.

Yeah. That sounds nice. Designed exactly to the metrics you like, too. Yeah. I yeah I I talk a lot about AI porn right now it's kind of what people want me to to talk about I did a debate in Chicago last fall for substack about this about kind of I was debating with the argument that AI will not take over the porn industry and that people ultimately want a human connection out of even their their pornography products and that is my stance

And kind of you're proving my point. So thank you so much. Is that people want, again, like there's no risk in interacting with something that you have generated to, as you said, your exact specifications. Like, an interesting conversation I had with somebody is, you know, if something can't say no, then it's not a good yes. Yeah. You know, like, what's fun about getting a yes is that they could say no and they didn't. Yeah. With AI, it's like they can't say no.

So what's the point of the yes? I'm right there with you. Yeah. And it's also like if you use like a flashlight or something, you're not in love with the thing. You're not, you're still fantasizing about a human being. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. That's their whole business. Yeah, there's still a connection to Asa Akira. Yeah. Emma Magnolia. Who? Shout out. Emma Magnolia.

Oh, nice. One of the fleshlight girls. Oh, sweet. Nice. Yeah. Do you know so? I, yes, I do. Cool.

She's talented. Yeah, Asakir is one of the main kind of porn hub ambassadors. Yeah. Yeah. I guess, you know, I'm a little bit more skeptical. I think AI porn is going to kind of win the day. I think maybe because we're of a certain generation, we're attached to the human element. But if you grow up,

in this AI porn normalization, that it might not, because I remember growing up and people said the same thing about the porn that I was raised on, you know, like, but there's no human element. It's not the same as going to get like a chick at a bar or something like that. And it was true, but it still was popular

and me and a bunch of other people watched it all the time. So I don't know, I think the fact that it's on command and that you can revise it to do what you wanted to do, I know it won't have that human pop, I think there's a lot of a lot that consume somebody there. Yeah, I mean, I think that what's interesting is, I think that's a fair point to make, but I actually don't think it's totally accurate because something that I like to do kind of like as my role as quote unquote porn historian is kind of track porn cycles,

like trend cycles and pornography that are quite cyclical the same way that, you know, fashion trends or other industry trends are. And something that's really, really interesting is that when aggregate site pornography, free porn, tube site porn, became popular, people were making the same argument where they were like, why would the porn industry exist when there are terabytes of free available pornography? Like, it doesn't make sense economically for anybody to pay for porn ever again. Like, the math does not add up. and people really believe that that would be the complete downfall of the porn industry. And kind of on paper, if you do the math, it should have been, but it wasn't. The porn industry prevailed.

And in fact, the biggest competitor that ended up kind of emerging to Porn Hub, in terms of household name pornography, is OnlyFound, which is specifically a paid model of porn consumption that hinges on, interpersonal connection so like when a model is is selling their their only fans page often it'll be like this is this is the only place you can talk to me yeah the human connection is what makes it more appealing than traditional porn exactly so so actually you know we had the same prediction with aggregate site porn it kind of quote-unquote should have erase the porn industry entirely and instead kind of like

what replaced that is people paying to connect with somebody. Right. So you think the technology will just buttress a new version of porn that just heightens our need for human connection? I think that it is inspiring kind of a rebellion in people and even kind of like when I talk about Luddite porn. Yeah, I mean, yeah, kind of. Like, I think The girl will be churning butter, the guy will be working the hoe and then. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, that does sound erotic. So what do you what do you make of Grock in their recent legal difficulties with people doing deep fakes and just a lot of... I think GROC is so disgusting.

What I want to say about GROC, I cannot have on the record, frankly. The fact that they are producing child sexual abuse material on a major mainstream platform and facing no retribution for something so disgusting, it really makes. makes me so angry. And this is, this is further... Can you explain quickly what, what happened with Grog? Yeah, so people are asking GROC, which is the X, AI, to undress children on the platform. And GROC is doing it.

Or people they know. Oh, wow. People they know underage children again. And GROC is doing it. So GROC has generated a tremendous amount of child sexual abuse material, image-based sexual abuse material. and what it does is they just like post a screenshot of quote unquote grok apologizing and then grok continues to do it and by grok i mean xx.x.com continues to generate child sexual abuse material but they've said they're going to put guardrails on it right they've fucking better yeah but so but what's interesting about

the tweet like it's like they've where where like the two faces out of the bottle yeah they have generated child sexual abuse material like how how are we allowing this like it's a I don't disagree with you, but it's interesting to me because you're like a supporter of Section 230, right? Yes. But isn't that the legal framework that protects these? So I guess it's implicit with AI yet. That hasn't been like judicially decided yet. But with like social media sites or places where third party content or user generated content is available, that's what protects them from getting sued for stuff like that.

Right. But what GROC is developing. is not user-generated content. User-generated content is people asking for something, making the request. That is what's protected under Section 230. The product, GROC, the mechanism GROC, is owned by X.com.

That has ownership, and that is part of the platform. That is the platform's doing. What it generates is not user-generated. I think it's so interesting because that's why I just did that video about that. My example was terrible, but like Wikipedia or AI can call Jeffrey Epstein a sex trafficker, even though he was never formally convicted in court. But newspapers aren't allowed to call him that. So it didn't really make sense to use that as like the wedge on it because everyone knows Jeffrey Epstein was a sex trafficker and no one has much sympathy for him.

But I do find it interesting in this judicial debate that's going to come up whether AI will be protected by Section 230. Because I think the websites will or the AI companies will argue, you know, It's not generated by us. It is generated by an amalgam of user content. I completely disagree with that reasoning because it just, that's just not correct. With the deep fake thing, it's completely not true. Yeah, it's just not true. Because they're the ones who have the engine that's making it happen.

Yes. And I think that if there is. In that instance, I think they will lose because it's just so ugly. It's disgusting. But I think they'll be protected overall with Section 230. Which it's really, I mean, which they're trying to amend purely based on, again, this kind of puritanical wave right? It's Chuck Grassley, right?

Yeah. It's like 92. It's a lot of them and they're all 92. He's 92, the senator. Oh, really? And he's still like, he's still out there trying to, he's trying to regulate the internet. He's 92. Yeah, let's get you to bed.

He might be right, but he's like, ban air oil. I don't think he's right, but like, uh, look at him. Get rid of a whale. Yeah. No more dial up. It makes all that won't noise in the house. Ask Jeeves. I'm not for it.

Ask God. Don't ask Jee. Yeah, that's why it's a really, it's just such a murky thing. It'll be interesting to see how it gets worked out. Yeah, I am very pro-regulating AI for the record, and I'm a huge supporter of Section 230, and I do not think those two things operate in opposition to each other. Yeah. I guess what's interesting to me, too, that I think is in support of what you're saying is

that the AI companies got protected on copyright. Yeah. Because they said, basically, we're taking from so many different sources that you can't, like, demand copyright to any one thing. Which is such insane logic where it's like, like, well, you can't persecute me because I stole from too many stores. Like, what are you talking about? And they would phrase it differently, but they would basically say it's such a salad that

it's like, it'd be like if someone wrote a book and was inspired by 50 other books. Like, they wouldn't owe copyright to that. But it was a little dubious, but they won that case. But then in this instance, they're almost making the opposite argument that they're like, oh, it's completely copyright and it's totally somebody else doing it. Yeah, somebody else did it. And that's why we can't be in trouble for it. And they might win in both instances with opposite arguments, which I guess just is like,

just crazy how the law works. It's crazy how the law works when you have a lot of money. Yeah. And everyone's behind you on it. So you worked for browsers. you were a writer. I was a script writer. And then so would you write in like final draft?

No, I just, we had like a template that I would just like fill in. And you, and you, kind of lo-fi. And your favorite thing was porn parody? Yeah, I did. I really enjoyed writing porn parody. That's how I got into the industry initially was because I had, had written kind of like for other areas of like the sex industry. but I used to do some stand-up comedy.

You did? I did. Oh, we do stand-up. Yeah, surprise. We're talking about some really serious stuff, but sometimes I can crack a joke. Do you go to yuck-yx? No, this was in Montreal. Oh, good scene up there.

Yeah. And I loved, I just love porn parody as, like, a genre of comedy. It's so silly. I also love it because, like, when people take their clothes off, people do not give a fuck what you're right. Like, it's like the ability for people to suspend their disbelief when they, when they even think people could maybe be taking their clothes off. Like, they are willing to go some really weird places with you. And you can just do some really silly stuff in porn parody.

And that is kind of like what the genre is all about is that it's really silly. It's really kind of dumb. It's gonzo. It's funny. It's like, it's not too serious. And yeah, I treasure porn. parody as an art form. And what do you think is like the best porn parody that you've been a part of it that you've seen? Oh my gosh. This is, I was not a part of this. I am just a fan, but so many things that

Wood Rocket has done, are you guys familiar with Wood Rocket? It's a studio, I don't know if they're so producing, but years and years ago they had a film come out called The Loin King. Oh, no. It's a parody of the Lion King and it is a musical. Oh, that's awesome. And at some points, they have, like, really great costuming. And at other points, they have, they, like, chose to go a completely different route. So, like, somebody just has a shirt that says snake on it. And it's so funny. It's, like, genuinely such a work of art.

I really encourage anybody watching this to go watch The Loin King. And who do you think was the best porn star at delivering dialogue? I can't answer that. Those are my friends. Oh, okay. Copy, you want to pick favorites. I appreciate that. I am curious, though. Someone had a really good question in the chat. They were saying, if they're not someone who actively watches porn, why should they care about this age verification law?

Such a good question. Let me tell you why I should care. Even if you don't watch pornography, the chances that you like something that could be defined as quote-unquote obscene or the terminology that they're using around pornography right now is harmful to minors and that is very broad. The term harmful to minors, extremely, extremely broad can be applied so many different ways, has been applied to kind of political conversation, to news. And that's, I think, kind of where we're getting into really dangerous territory is that

this kind of new understanding that it is totally fair and fine for these tech companies to be collecting your bio data and doing God knows what with it. It's not just going to be applied to the porn industry. It already hasn't been the UK's Online Safety Act. Again, quote unquote harmful to minors, has been applied to. some adult sites, but also many other sites, X accounts, Discord servers, et cetera, et cetera. So you don't support COSA? Do you know at all if this? I know Australia just banned minors from being on like social media. Do you know if that's had a positive effect,

negative effect? Is there data on that yet? I, I really have a hard time with anything where the government is deciding how parents should, parent their children, how people should parent their kids, what people should have access to. Generally speaking, I think anything of that nature is a government overreach of, you know, I believe that it is in parents' best interest to be able to parent their kids. I do not think that we should let these government systems raise our children. And this is kind of like the conversation that happened initially with internet freedoms in the 90s when... Oh, this quote was incredible.

Can you do the quote that they said when they first tried to regulate them? Oh, no, it's like so long. It was... It is beautiful. It was like, you will never govern us. We are landless. We are bodyless. We are lawless.

Yeah, it's awesome. And they basically said there will be no more nationalism because of us. They really thought they were going to create world peace. It was nice... Yeah, the utopia of kind of like what people believe the internet could be was really beautiful at one point. And yeah, this is like a quote from the Electronic Frontier Foundation, which still does exist. But at that point, it was so awesome. It was like a bunch of hippies. Like I think somebody from maybe Grateful Dead, I forget. But yeah, just like what a fantastic

group. And but even beyond Electronic Frontier Foundation, there was so much pushback from parents around regulating the internet because they argued that this was government trying to parent their kids. And now I would say that the propaganda around, you know, the internet and pornography, et cetera, et cetera, has been so strong that I feel like we've kind of forgotten that. You know, I don't see as much pushback the same way that we had in the 90s. Maybe we take it for granted because we've lived with, just kind of so much freedom around it. Yeah.

Maybe it'll take the pendulum going the other way for us to kind of want to find a new sweet spot for it. I guess from my last question, do you feel like porn has contributed to the male loneliness epidemic that we hear so much about? I think contributed is a very vague word. Do you think it has made it worse? I think that what is contributing to the male loneliness,

this epidemic is is mostly a very complicated social situation we've developed. I think that pornography has been kind of used as the scapegoat because I think a lot of men, young men are... I think you could point to like our earning power coming down being more contributive to that loneliness. And I also think that like... And that could spike someone wanting to watch porn, too, as a kind of escape from just the material reality therein.

It's... Yeah, I think that people are using pornography as an escape from reality, but I don't think that that means that pornography is why they want to escape reality. Like, if you are feeling pretty good about your reality, you tend to not want to escape. And I think that that is more what we should be focusing on. And I think that kind of this like the male loneliness epidemic thing is really interesting because I think it is kind of this like buzzword that gestures to kind of a lot of different issues that are happening.

I also think it's interesting because young men 18 to 24 are more in support of regulating and actually preventing access to pornography than they ever happen. So there's this real movement among young men actually to not watch. pornography and I and I think that that is is indicative of a very complicated thing that's happening with young men and their relationship to sex and sexuality. I loved your substack on the male loneliness epidemic that you wrote like a month ago and the part that was really fascinating to me too and like so like just compassionate and you nailed on something I hadn't heard that like when you go to these porn conventions a lot of the guys who go are like disabled

neurodivergent people like people who are men who might have trouble connecting in the real world for whatever reasons and porn is actually like a wonderful outlet for them to feel connection or to develop some muscles in that direction. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that's why like kind of like the the buzzword of male loneliness epidemic, like sometimes I struggle with because kind of in that piece I, I talked about having like a bit of a hard time with like people throwing around the term online, particularly I think that it's kind of like a gotcha moment sometimes for people online to be like, they're not lonely enough or like like like oh like when women come down on dudes because it'll be like

a video of a guy being like a piece of shit out of the world and like yeah yeah video of a guy being a jerk and all the comments are like like what happened to the male loneliness epidemic like they should be more lonely and and my thing is like this guy isn't lonely like this guy like like the guy that's being like an an absolute jerk to your sister like your brother-in-law that you hate isn't lonely like these Those guys are married. Like, there's lots to unpack with that and, like, why that can happen. But, like, you know, so often in even those videos, there are videos of guys being, you know, shitty to their wives.

Yeah, it'll be like Gavin Rosdale cheated on Gwen Stefani. And people are like, this is why men are lonely. Yeah, I'm like, this guy's not lonely. He's got two girls. Yeah. It's like, this rock star who can do whatever he wants and lives without consequences. Yeah, he's kind of a butthead sometimes. But, like, yeah, it's not emblematic of most men.

These guys aren't lonely. Like, that's not who we're talking about. That's not who we should be talking about. Like, like, and I think that there really is an issue with, you know, a lack of community between men. And I think also that's kind of, we're seeing a lot of these kind of like red pill, very reactive spaces really take hold of a lot of young men. their communities, you know, like everybody wants a community.

Totally. And if you are looking for community and that's where you find it, that's where you will find it. And I think that that's something that we're kind of not addressing is that like there there really is a lack of community. There is a lack of support for so many different people, like people that are falling through the cracks in terms of like support, society support, interpersonal support. and I think that that is worth addressing. Yeah.

Thank you. There was this idea in Victorian England that they repressed everything sexually because it actually made everything erotic. Do you think that's part of this conservative agenda against porn is that actually by making everything taboo, they're actually just building up their own like counter like, their own oppositional sexual energy a little bit?

100%. I mean, I think even before when we were talking about Exodus Cry, that's a great example of that, where Exodus Cry is tremendously anti-pornography, and they believe swimsuit illustrated as pornography. Like that is a great example of that, is that when you kind of demonize something so strongly, you begin to see it everywhere.

Yeah. And then it's just going to turn people on more, too. They're just going to be like, oh, this is crazy. And that's the risk. People will be too horny. Well, yeah, it's like, what creates a more like unsafe sexual environment, like repression or like total exposure? And I do think probably you don't want absolute either. Well, I think that's such a another great example of this is tentacle porn, where the origins of tentacle porn being that, you know, at some point in Japan, they made it illegal. to show genitalia, to depict genitalia.

So artists were finding, you know, all these different other ways to gesture towards the penis. And as a result, we have a thriving, you know, subculture of tentacle rape aficionados. Yeah, and Japan is a place that is at least assumed to be from my, you know, outside perspective is pretty repressed. and then their porn does tend to be the most unique, to put it non-judgmentally. Yeah, I mean, I think that there's so much conversation about that because a lot of it is kind of like early colonialism that influenced legislation around, again, kind of depiction of the Marshall Plan. I don't know.

But it's, it is interesting. And I think a lot of places that have kind of like rules and regulations specifically about like what is and is not allowed to be depicted, what we see is like the development of like almost like these like cottage fetishes within that. Because like people will desire, you know, like if, if. Yeah, you can't regulate out desire. You can't regulate out desire. It just, it becomes really like a, you know, whack a mole. And sometimes the moles get weird. I feel healthier after having this conversation. Yeah. I feel a little more, I feel more integrated as a person. That's really nice. I think that.

That it's so interesting. Me too. Are you feel healthier? Well, I think one thing that really spoke to me was like, it's okay to be weird. Yes. Yeah. I think I, I think I, my family wasn't, they're not, they weren't too strict, but I think I felt some shame by not wanting to disappoint them. So I think it's not like they were like, you know, my mom's like pretty open and she's very sweet.

And my dad's very sweet too. but I think is you know not wanting to like shame the family so I think I think any kind of weird urges or desires or you know

fetishes I had I don't really know but like I think I would look at those and be like that's bad yeah yeah because you could get punished for you could get ostracized that's why movies about repressed gay guys are always the best because you're like I understand that urinary

that I'm scared if I'm totally seen, people will kick me out of the tribe. If people know how much I like the butt. I'd watch that movie though, brother. He did rivalry mention. No, no, no, I was talking about that show. It's a good show. For me, the female, but, you know, from...

Sure. But I'll love. I'll love what respect. You know, same goes. I get it. Yeah, I mean, I think that, like, I... Obviously, I do a lot of, like, analysis, like, sex and culture analysis.

And I like to say, sometimes I joke that I'm sponsored by big, don't worry about it. Yeah, yeah. Because I'm really like an advocate of people giving themselves grace, even though a lot of my work is on a macro scale kind of like analyzing these issues that we have with sex and sexuality. but I'm of the belief that, you know, on again, a very macro scale, we've done something kind of weird. We've gone ourselves into a pretty weird situation with sex and sexuality. You know, many of us have somewhat Puritan religious upbringings. That's complicated.

You know, there's so much that goes into sex and sexuality that, again, it is difficult to unpack on a macro scale. And how that has played into, on a microscale, how you interact with your own sexuality, it's complicated for everybody. It is often a bit strange for everybody. And everybody's kind of wrestling with it. And contradictory a lot of the times. Very contradictory. And I think, yeah, everybody I know has a very complicated relationship to sex.

Like, it is normal to be kind of weird. Because, again, like, we are existing in this world where we have made sex into something a bit strange. It's like how every, the dude I know who works in ice is married to a Mexican chick. And every black dude I knew who was like militant ended up with a white chick. What is going? I can't comment on that. Yeah, I made it. You made it into it.

I made it big and wild and pulled too much into him. You took it into like a weird race area. No, but I'm just also saying it's interesting me that like, to the contradictory nature of like sex is that like you can with all your heart feel this way in this direction. Yeah. And then something else in you can go the opposite direction in a very significant way. Yeah. And like you can love something in person and want something completely different from like, you know, what you want to watch other people do. Like you said, just because you like a heist movie doesn't mean you want to rob a bank.

and we don't have to hyper-analize why we want to watch a heist movie and what that means for us day-to-day. And do we have to tell people that we like heist movies and what does that mean for how we interact with people? Like, I really, I really want people to give themselves a bit of grace. Yeah. That's a nice message. And then, sorry, cream jeans asked the great question.

What do you think is the difference between the male gaze and the female gaze? Thank you, Cream jeans. He's a genius. He's such a great question. He's one of our. our most devoted watchers, listeners, heavy commenter. Beautiful. And for our podcast guests, if Cream Jeans approves, that's a huge...

Cream jeans, do you approve? Cream jeans, you got to approve. You got to approve. You got to put you on the spot. Oh, yeah. Oh, yay. Oh, yay. A lot of exclamation points.

Thank you, Cream Jeans. I love your username. I think that that's such a good question that I wrestle with a lot in my work, particularly with the last few years, because I still sometimes do script writing. And again, I kind of started in these like super mainstream studios doing very gonzo stuff that is absolutely like four dudes. And now just because of like the company I keep and like the circles I'm in and also just like kind of like my own interests. I've definitely worked with more kind of like, quote unquote, like, for women studios. And I think that that's really interesting.

And I kind of struggle with it sometimes, like the kind of like differentiation of like porn for women. I have a hard time with because like personally as a woman, like I love like the gonzo stupid parody stuff. Like the like super blown out early 2000 studio. like the casting couch, the bang bus. Like, I like that stuff. It's like S&L. It's like what you were raised on will always be your favorite. Yeah, and like that's really what I have a soft spot for.

And so like I don't love like the kind of like gendering pornography. Like you can like whatever porn you want. Right, you're not a monolith. Like there's a million different tastes within women. And like I often find that the genre of like quote unquote porn for women. tends to be pretty classically like a higher production value, like a slower pace. Better lighting. Better lighting. Better color grading often. Slower pace is key. Yeah, slower pace.

Like warming her up a little bit and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah. Definitely like kind of an intro. But I also think that so much of that is more to do with the fact that not as many women watch porn. So, like, it's, I think it more speaks to kind of, like, a statistical unfamiliarity with porn that lends itself better to, like, somebody enjoying something that's a little bit slower pace, that's a little bit higher production value that. A new year, colder days. This is the moment that your winter wardrobe really has to deliver. If you're craving a winter reset, start with pieces truly made to last all season long.

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And guys, refresh your winter wardrobe from Quince. Go to quince.com slash T-A-F-S for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada, too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash T-A-FS, free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash Tafts. It might look a little bit more like, you know, the sex scenes and movies that they might like. And I think that that has more to do with it than like. gender, although it is gendered in like, in terms of still, like, men consume and purchase

pornography at a much higher rate than women do. Yeah. Well, get your numbers up, ladies. I agree. Get your numbers up, ladies. This was really, I feel great. I feel like you tetrists me in a really good way. Pieces are fitting together better. I'm glad. Yeah. Well, I feel like it was so funny. And I'm going to out you a little bit where we were like on our way up here and you were kind of like, we're going to fight. I'm going to fight you. You're better. Be ready. You better be ready for, we're, we're going to have some tension. I'm going to challenge you. And you've been so delightful. You've been like so nice. We might have had other ones where I had to like cut something or something. So like I just,

I didn't want to surprise anybody anymore. That's hilarious. No, no, I appreciate that. I appreciate it. It's just funny. You really, you really sat. I might have oversold. Yeah. Yeah. He didn't want to tell you that I'm the one who brings the heat. Yeah. As soon as the cameras are going to have, you're going to. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, well, I, I, disagree. Let me tell you why. Actually? Yeah. The Lord is watching this. Yeah. He told me that. Oh, man. Well, thank you so much, guys. You can check her out on Substack and Noel

Purdue. She's written for a ton of huge publications like Slate, The Washington Post. And so, yeah, check out her stuff. You're a great writer. It's really fun to read your stuff. Thank you. Thank you for coming in. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Yeah, for sure, dude. Guys, this episode is brought to you by a new sponsor. I'm so pumped on. Talkiety. Talkiety. What is it? It's online psychiatry. So let's say you're trying to get to see a psychiatrist.

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I'm so pumped on it. You know, just we're doing the pod. We're doing this long-form stuff. And it's, uh, it all is just fire. me up, you know, two channels of Stoke just funneling together into one amalgamination of froth, and that is something that I am just fired up on. Stoke to see you guys in the chat. You guys are also great in the chat.

We got cream jeans, of course, smoking gongch, Chadwick Bushman, young man go, oh, young mango jewel pod. Dude, great name. Mingemonger, what up? I saw a skeletal shlong in there. Um, you guys watch that Bears Rams game? Holy tomatoes. Guys, I, I, you know, you guys all know, I'm a lifelong Rams fan, you know, since the day

I was born. I was born in a Rams jersey, but I got to be honest, I wanted to see the Bears win yesterday. I love Chicago. I love the Bears. I love Joe. I love Chudwin. And I just think it would have been really cool to see them win. But, you know, kind of big.

Sweet because I'm stoked to see my Rams win, so that fires me out. But dude, that last pass with Caleb Williams. Oh my God. That was incredible. I was on the plane and this is actually pretty cool because most of the time when you're on a plane, it blows. We all know, you know, but there were fans all around me. We're all watching the game. And when Caleb made that pass, here we got JT coming back in. Dude, I was telling when Caleb made that pass, I was on the plane. I was literally like, you know, I'm Big Daddy when he's trying to watch the hockey game while the kids sleeping and they score a goal. When he caught that pass, I was like, I was like, whoa. Dude, it was unreal.

Oh, shit, I just swacked my. I was with my two kids. Yeah. I was with my two kids. And I was like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. It was unreal.

It might have been the crazy. I mean, I'm always a prisoner of the moment. I was like, this is the craziest play I've ever seen. Yeah. When he dropped back 20 yards, I'm like, there's no shot. It's done It was so incredible Just tossed it up right into his hands

Right in the bread basket Yeah Should we try and call Joe Let's give it a shot Did you talk to him yesterday after? No I called him right after the touchdown And he was taking a piss And he was like that was amazing

He's like you gotta get down to the pig And I wanted to but I woke up too late I didn't call him afterwards Because I knew he'd be hurting Yeah Should I just try him real quick right here Or is that too cruel No don't do it

Yeah it was wild And, you know, I really wanted the bears. I've been so wrong on the bears. I've been saying all season they suck and that they were like overrated and I didn't know if Caleb had it. And you saw some of that like Caleb. He is like all over the place. Maybe the most entertaining player of all time.

Yeah. Yeah. The interceptioner, you're like, like, like if he, if they had won that game. It would be incredible. Oh. Because I think I think Denver's the Patriots would have been the best Super Bowl. Oh, yeah. Like it would have been awesome.

But, uh, yeah. Dude, I hope, I just hope it's not like Seattle. Denver. No disrespect to the Denver and Seattle fans mad at me because I for I talked about the last time they were good on the pod and I said with Matt Hassaback totally forgot about Legion of Boom and Russell Wilson a huge brain fart on my part. I'm very sorry to the Seattle fans and anyone who cares about sports but uh yeah that would not be a good Super Bowl Seattle Denver I might not watch yeah that might be a tune out one Denver is no go now with Bo Nix out with the broken ankle that's crazy I watched the highlight of the play where they think he

broke it? It was like, it didn't look like much. The doctor who did the analysis online was like, I didn't see anything here that would suggest a tibial break. And poor Josh Allen, man. He played bad. He missed some throws. He missed the game. Yeah. He had to throw it. It might have been, did they, that game went OT, right? Yeah. He had to throw an OT to like Dawson Knox. Yeah. Like down the scene that like, he just missed him. And it would have been a tutty. And what do you think of like that there's that controversial play with the, they ruled it in an interception? Yeah, I didn't see it live. I think by the letter of the law, it was an interception.

But I think the letter of the law is wrong sometimes. Right. That sounds dumb. But like, if you're watching that, like, that's a catch, bro. Like, he caught it. He was down on the ground. Then the other guy ripped it out of his hands. Like, if you were playing backyard, you'd be like, you can't do that.

Shut up, dude. That's a first down. Come on. And they fired the coach. Yeah. I was surprised by it. Why do you think they did that? I mean, three straight playoffs where they, you could argue they should have made it to the Super Bowl and they didn't.

At a certain point, if you don't get over the top, you're gone. I think it was probably the right move, honestly. I saw people calling for Belichick. Do you think Belichick would go to the bills? I think that's a bad move. I think he's too long in the tooth. He's like in his 70s.

I would go with someone younger. Yeah. And also he's going to just bring such a... And he got... I think he got more intense about it the older he got. He's such like a dictator leader. You have to have like tremendous buy-in from the team. And I just don't know if he could pull that off right now.

I think guys like him and like Popovich, I think are like the greatest coaches ever, but I don't think they exist if their best player isn't as selfless as they are. Like Tim Duncan and Tom Brady made it possible to be a great coach because they bought in completely and that made all the other guys follow suit.

Someone asked how I feel about Tomlin. I cried a little bit. I have tremendous respect for Mike Tomlin. I thought he brought class to every situation, even when it was like impossible to find. We had a lot of crazy characters on the Steelers, and he was just always a steady hand on the wheel, and I'm grateful for the 19 years.

I know we had a tough run in the playoffs the last decade, but I could not have been more thrilled to watch him coach the team to have him as our coach for so long. Three coaches in 55 years. What a tradition. Best job in sports. The best job in sports. Dude, I was, while you're gone to,

I was talking about the new series. I'm just so pumped on the new series. I'm loving it. dude helping some bros we uh i was watching a cut of the upcoming fourth episode and i was just crying laughing on the plane oh that's good yeah i was and candy was watching with me and she just was just seeing the visuals and we were just cracking up okay that's great yeah and the celebrity guest is he's unbelievable yeah yeah that's been a lot of fun well how was the trip to new york I didn't hear more about it.

I haven't talked to you since. We did the 9-11 Memorial on, um. Nice. You love a, I love tragic. A big museum of death. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because Holocaust is your number one in D.C.

I can do Holocaust. I was like, baby, we gotta go 9-11. Yeah, we just, you know, we stayed in Midtown. And then what we do the first night. We just, we got in late, so we just hung out. Then Friday, we did the 9-11 museum. and then we got a lunch and what did we do after that we did like a big sushi dinner perfect um do you do it in brooklyn or did you do oh soho do you stay in soho this time midtown

yeah yeah we're uh we're unlike madison i always love the story not to embarrass you but the first time he took oh yeah Kennedy out to new york oh yeah i took her to the uh margaritaville hotel she still talks about that and she's very sweet about it she's like look it's a nice hotel is nice hotel and I got a deal nice hotel I just hate the location oh that's very diplomatic now I let her pick the hotel smart yeah but do a crazy thing though

Friday night is an old building is the NH something hotel NH Madison and late at night at 3 a.m we start hearing this hissing steam is coming out of the vent the AC vent

what? steam was coming out. Like you're getting poisoned by Putin or something? Yeah, dude, we had to move rooms at 3 a.m. Who do you think was behind it? You know, I asked the guy if it's Putin, he's like, dude, this is... Some anti-Stoke dictatorial you like that? Yeah.

And, you know, he's like, this has been happening ever since Mom Donnie came in. I'm not saying it was Mom Donnie. I think he's like, I think there's some bad actors coming in. Right, there's just been a lot of change since he came in. It could be oppositional forces from any side. Yeah, you just don't know. know who. Yeah. You know, so. Did you watch Nick Shirley on, on Andrew Callaghan? Oh, I was going to ask about that. Dude, he seems like the dumbest guy alive. I'm going to undersold how bad he speaks,

because he was on All In and he sounded pretty dumb. Yeah. But that one was like, I was like, I can't believe this. I was watching, I was watching just clips. I was like, I cannot believe I'm, what is this? He's come back out and said like, Andrew chopped it that way to make him look bad. Right. So he's like, it's a two and a half hour interview. How come it's only an hour and And then, like, Callahan was like, dude, are you serious? I literally cut it to make you seem smarter. Yeah, yeah.

And so there's a lot of, I think, I think what's his name will, I think Shirley will do a good enough job of convincing people who believe in his story to believe that Callahan did do him dirt. Right. But it's just, yeah, it was pretty rough. Yeah, it was, uh, I just saw clips and I was like, this is unbelievable. Yeah, it was. He's, belevelent?

Who do you think is the most benevolent? billionaire, most malevolent? Gotta be Trump. Yeah, it's interesting. I watched all the videos of him going to the daycares and stuff like that. Oh, you did? You watched his whole thing. I've watched like four or five, yeah.

So let me, so his videos that he made himself, does he sound intelligent or compelling? He doesn't sound like super smart. Like you wouldn't, he doesn't like, people are going to hate whatever guy I pick. But he's not, he doesn't present as well as like Anderson Cooper or like John Dickerson or someone like that. Or even Alex Jones.

He doesn't have like that wild charisma or anything. But no, he doesn't sound exceptionally intelligent. And you can tell by some of it, like he's not using fact checks or comparative data. But The New York Times ran an article on November 29th before his video came out saying there was probably like a billion dollars worth of fraud going on in Minnesota. So it just depends what you want to highlight. Yeah. I think I came up with a better metaphor for Greenland too. I tried to do this as a man on the street bit.

I try to explain the Greenland situation to a bodybuilder. All right, so it's like this. Did you do it this weekend? I did, but dude, I was off my game. I don't know what it is. I forgot to record a couple audio-wise and stuff like that. Do you have some clips though? I think we'll have some, but like the two best ones I probably didn't get.

But the visual is funny. Yeah, yeah. Of me just explaining it to. Do you think you'll reshoot it? I might, yeah. Yeah. So basically it's like Greenland is sitting on like a warehouse full of Trenblin, which is like the strongest steroid.

Yeah. But they don't want to run it because they're all. all natty and they know it's bad for their body. And then their dad, Denmark, they're not into it either because they're into like less aggressive pleasures. But the Mr. Olympia is coming up. Yeah. And China is running like a full stack. Like they've got they've got tests and of our HCH and they've got a ton of trend and they're they're just blasting it and they're running it clean. Like their stack is so far ahead of ours. So us America, we're on a D stack. We've got some tests. We've got some HCH.D.H. But we're like, yo, Greenland, start selling us that trend. And we're going to be like,

or don't be surprised if we get aggressive, bro. That's awesome. So you record them, but you have audio? I didn't have audio on a couple of the good ones. And dude, honestly, I went to Gold's Gym in Venice. Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. Bodybuilders are so sweet.

Yeah. They were like terrified. They were like, dude, what are you saying to me right now? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then some of them were cool, but a lot of them were just like, it's interesting. Bodybuilders are yoked, but they're very gentle people. And so they, they, I would actually say like a random Joe at like a library is easier to kind of like get to flow with it than a bodybuilder sometimes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Michael Hearn, he goes there all the time. He'd be great. He'd be great. There wasn't as many jacked people as I thought I was going to see. I know you've been there with Moscow, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's some for sure yoked people. But I thought like, you thought it'd be everyone. I thought everyone would be a bodybuilder. Yeah, you do have like every type of person. But the people who are jacked are like exceptionally jacked. And you see a lot of jacked in there too. Totally. There was some freaky, in a good way, buff chicks. I went to a bodybuilding

gym in Burbank because it's closer to me. Good looking guy, owner guy running it. I'm like, hey man, let me shoot a video with you. It's like, I do this thing. He's like, yeah, man, no problem. Just give me a second. Then a pretty girl walks in to sign up for the gym. Bro, he took two hours to sign her up. Really? And he was like, he's like, I'm like, dude, can we shoot this thing? He's like, hey, dude, I'm signing up a client, bro. But then I would hear what he was talking to her about. he's like, he's like, yeah, this guy wants to shoot with me. Oh, hilarious. He was like using me to make himself a cool.

And he was talking to her about like EDM Fest and like everything under the sun. I'm like, dude, I can't do it. And I was like, all right, man, I left before I shot him. It was, I maybe I should have waited for him. I honestly, these other guys I found were better. But like, it was one of those moments where I was like, I should shoot this. I should get the best clip possible. My pride means nothing.

Do your job. But then part of me was like, I think this is like bad for me as a human if I wait two and a hours for this guy. I mean, that's a long time. It might not. It was like an hour and a half, two hours, but I, did you watch the rip? Dude, one of the greatest movies ever made. I watched it last night. Awesome. It's amazing. It's awesome. There's some of it where I'm like, I'm like, did you need to do that? Like, there's a scene on the beach, which I think is like a fake beach. And I'm like, what? You didn't have a beach you could shoot it? But overall, I fucking loved it, dude. Ben Affleck and Matt Damon,

Is there any better duo in history? No, they're the coolest. I mean, and yeah, I just, I was trying to get Kennedy to watch it because Sheila, you know, she's, she knows I love heist movies. I love war and heist. She loves murder and, you know, ghosts. I love ghosts too. But I was like, I was like, we got to watch the rip. Watch it and like 20 minutes in a look around.

I'm like, it's good, isn't it? She's like, yeah. The way they talk is sick All the actors are good I think Joe Carnahan's a really good director and writer And you know what surprised me I got emotional at the end You did

Yeah Yeah yeah There's a scene with one of the main guys And he was talking about something And I gotta be vague Because I don't want to bust it up for anybody I got a little choked up Yeah

He's a fucking good director that guy I love that they said in Miami too Sick as hell That got me fired Most movies should be there Especially if they're gonna be that style Yeah Rip

The way they talk to I mean, especially Affleck. Like, I think they were cast so well. Because Affleck can play that rugged, like. Screwy. Yeah, cop who's just like, he's like, yeah. And then Damon had like a tinge of like nerdiness to him. Yeah.

Which I thought played so well. Yeah, there was like a little bit of the bad guy from Interstellar in him. Like a little bit of like, is this guy sneaky kind of stuff? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, man. So good. What did you think? Brooks was saying

he was making fun of it because it like restated the plot a couple times during the movie especially there's like one extended scene where they literally explain everything that's happened before

but it includes some twists and stuff I actually liked that yeah and Damon said you have to do that for Netflix movies because Netflix is like hey you have to restate the plot because people are passively watching

yeah it didn't bother me while I was watching it yeah I actually was smiling ear to ear during that clip before I watched it. So I was aware of it. But yeah, I watched that. I was like that, that that gave me everything I wanted and more. Have you, if you watched his and her, the John Bernthal show on Netflix with Tesla Thompson? No, should I watch that? I like it a lot. Is that, is it a murder mystery? Yeah, and I like his character a lot. Yeah. He's like full

Bernthal in it. I'm doing it. Yeah, I can watch him. He's 50. He looks great. I've watched Wolf of Wall Street again recently. I mean, one of the greatest movies ever. Yeah. It's so good. Hit him in it. Huh? Him and it? Oh, yeah. Bernthal? Berndthal, yeah.

Tank. You get some pussy with that thing. Dude, have you noticed how pretty the stars looking out lately? Like in the sky? Yeah. No. I think because the rain cleared out the small. Oh.

So for the last week, it's like the first time. I've never seen him this clear. That's cool. I'm going to look up tonight. Yeah, you go for a walk and you're like, whoa, there you are. Yeah. They're hidden from us all the time. I know.

Rogan always talks about that. he's like he's like when i saw the cosmos in on mount uh was it in um in hawai whatever mountain that is kilamajaro i think so there's no way that's it no it's like kill away or something mount mcint nope joe said i don't know joe marisi i texted him to see if he wants to come on i don't know i don't think i'll be entertaining today I can't hold myself Oh, Kauai is beautiful with the mountains So epic

Point to the beach, dude Dude, yeah So I think Yeah, just looking at I want to get like a telescope That'd be cool I can see you being super into that Yeah

And just like searching for different stars and stuff Yeah I think you can also like name a star after someone They'll give you like a certificate Moniquea that's a yeah That's the good one Yeah Halakala.

How is it the tallest mountain in the world? Is that because of counting the ocean? I think so. I think they count the underneath on that. I remember my teacher in grade school saying that, tricking us. Do you think Galileo, his fetish, was getting sucked off while looking at a telescope? Oh, for sure. Sick.

I think he could also, uh, hold on, I wrote one down that she mentioned in a pod. Hey guys, I don't want to flex, but, uh, I walk Noel to the elevator. And she said she's done a lot of podcasts where dudes were duches, and she said chatting me had good vibes. Oh, that's sweet. Sweet. Tell her, thank you. She mentioned some interesting niches of sexual fetish. Where I was like, dude, I didn't even know that would be a thing.

Like dropping a marble on your toe or something like that. Oh, interesting. Yeah, I don't know, but stuff like that. I love cream jeans like cream jeans and cream jeans has a way with the guests Kevin Etton

oh yeah and Brad Fuller to you know heavy weights in Hollywood they're they're desperate for cream jeans approval I'm because he runs that that roost you know

he's top dog wait did cream jeans his criticism but she didn't smile yeah yeah yeah he's like she doesn't smile Bad vibe. She has a smiled one. That's old school. That's old school dude misogyny. Why don't you smile for me?

Why don't you smile pretty lady? Why you look so clump? Cream recognizes cream. Dude, I will say this isn't massaging, but there was a lady at my kids' daycare who had the side-by-side stroller and had like two kids and she was trying to get through the door. And I went to just help. I was like, oh hey, like to open the door so she could get. And she was like jammed in there. Like it was going like opposite way. And then she was like, I got it.

And I was like, lady, at a certain point, your independence is getting in the way of like how we're flowing here. You know, you might have to let me just pop the door. It's true. Nice lady, though. Chad, JT. What up. It's landed. Colin from North Carolina.

Longtime listener. First time caller. I got a loaded question for you boys. How long would it take you guys with the conception of the. There's no expiration date. You can live here. You can do whatever you want, exercise. And it's not a race per se, but how long would it take you to eat an entire grocery store by yourself?

Again, no expiration date. You don't have to eat the aisle with, like, the notebooks and stuff where, you know, they have, like, the third party stuff off to the side. We're talking just straight edible items, potous aisles. That's a good question. Dairy. The bread aisle, you know, the bread aisle is going to take us a while, you know what I mean? So how long would it take you guys to finish an entire grocery store by yourself? Love the pod. I've been listening for years. Thank you guys so much for all the last throughout the years.

Cheers. And I can't wait to hear this question answered soon. See you. Sick. That's a great question. Great cue. I was thinking about it. I was thinking about how quickly we go through food. In my house, I would say a year. That's a rock salad, brother. I think a year.

It's tough. Can I tell you something? Yeah. I think you could do it way faster. You think so? I thought I was making it too short. No, I think like two weeks. You're right.

Yeah, that bread, yeah. Dude, you're right. I go through like a loaf a week, bro. Yeah, I mean, dude, you are like the loaf master. I am the loaf, dude. The loaf lover. You got to think about all the sweets, though. Like, can you do all the?

cosmic brownies and the fucking twinkies. Yeah, well, I mean, first of all, you know, I only shop at raw market, so, I mean, right out the gate, as long as I got my portable grill with me, I'm probably working my way through all that steak fairly quickly. Oh, dude. And it's all animal product, you know, because my skin wasn't looking good, so I just started drinking raw milk. It also, you know, cured my niece's autism.

And then just pounding tea bones. drilling rib eyes and because it's just like it's just all animal products you know that's where I get my fats and my protein from

dude that's honestly the sickest thing I've ever heard yeah thank you dude yeah what about booze how fast are you going through the yeah I'll drink a little bit I'll drink a night I'll do a half a shot of tequila

because it doesn't have the same of depressive qualities as other alcohols and you know it comes from good agave that I know is ethically sourced and a you know the proceeds go towards um helping uh navy seals get haircuts and then um it's good cost yeah i could probably go through all that tequila i do a shot at night you don't want to do more than that because then it can be bad for your thermogenesis you stop burning calories

of rest as much so uh tequila doesn't have as depressive qualities no no no it's a kind of in between categorization in terms of its dopamine effects what has the least depressive qualities just being just breathing but of like booze oh of booze um tequila for sure yeah that's probably the only one but it's hard to get it

you gotta get it from the right source you know what I mean I go to uh conquistador cacti productions and they do a great job yeah good dudes yeah uh big ups to uh mac O'Malley

he's one of the best good guy also he also recommended me to the Tijuana uh... them cell place where I get my uh my knees in my back my uh dude every time you go there you're like a brand new man yeah they take really good care of me yeah it's where the seizure salad was invented so i go down there it's a one seizure salad i allow myself to have sick i got sorry i got one more beef yeah what kind of beef is with big nitrogen uh so last week i found out that we are breathing in 78% nitrogen and only

21% oxygen fuck why is everyone say bro you need more oxygen or like, you know, like, you go up in the mountains. They're like, it's because there's no oxygen. Bro, it's 78% nitrogen. Like, what the fuck are you talking about? I need more nitrogen. Right? Are we breathing in too much nitrogen?

You know, I got to be honest with you, man. Um, I wasn't aware of this. Yeah. Wait, so nitrogen is actually the top dog, but oxygen takes all the cred. Exactly. Yeah, so oxygen only makes up 21. percent of what we're breathing in the air. It is 78% nitrogen.

But it seems like, here's what it's saying. Nitrogen acts as a diluent, preventing oxygen from being too concentrated in the air we breathe. The nitrogen we inhale doesn't react with our bodies. We exhale it unchanged, unlike oxygen, which is used for cellular processes.

So it seems like nitro's like corn, bro. You just poop it out whole. I agree with you, Jake. nitro should get some more more love oh okay more love yeah right

yeah just people aren't talking about it enough it's like everyone wants oxygen but like nitrogen is the primary and it would be sick if people are like do you need more nitra I think we were gonna do this when we drafted elements with uh

Dolph lundering and then it was just like impossibly boring so we pivoted into just like what were the 80s like yeah how was studio 54 yeah exactly that was cool those are good stories oh man yeah

Good times, guys. Thanks for tuning in, Stokers. Wait, how was the show at the Bell House? It was fun. It was cool, yeah, yeah. How was the setup? It was cool. It felt like it was, it was,

felt like it was the right setup for that kind of show. It did. It felt better than doing it like. It was like more stage. That's great. I was nervous up top, though. Of course. But the audio visual stuff was better to.

It was great. Yeah. Oh, perfect. They really, like, they really. like, you know, working with the headset mic, like, to like fine tune it, which was cool. So when you did your sound check, it was like a little bit more detail. He was going through all the frequencies

and stuff. So, yeah, it was cool. And then, I went out with, we went out to a club for a little bit. I had a shot of tequila. You went to a club? Yeah, she wanted to go out. So it was fun. The club just going like this. Yeah. It was fun. We're in kind of opposite dynamics. Like, after we just, Santa Cruz. I wanted Elizabeth to come out with me to the club. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we were outside. I was like, this band sounds killed. The band would sound amazing.

Yeah. And she goes, it's going to smell in there. She's like, I'll wait in the car. So I went to dance for like five. No, we went there. The guy was playing Eric Prids. I'm like, this guy's playing my chance. Oh, that's right up your alley. Yeah, yeah. It's just so crowded. That's why you're just in there. You're like sardines. You don't need it for too much time. I think it's good to get it. There's like a good energy from it. Yeah. But you don't need to do it forever. Oh, dude. I kept getting dog too, but, you know, you just know club, like, rules and stuff. And like, if you're a dude, if you're in line, you know, you just get disrespected so hard. It's insane.

So I went to go get pizza because I was hungry. So I went to get pizza. Kennedy and her friend went to the club. So I was like, I'm just going to get pizza. I'll be back. I come back. I'm in line to go in. I talk to the guy. I'm like, hey, you know, ladies in there. He's like, $150 minimum at the bar I was like $150 minimum and I'm like can you just come out here and she's like he's with us and he's like

all right and then ordered tequila shots three shots when I order them $92 I was like what the fuck is this? I was like what the fuck is this

she orders them 35 oh my god it is the one like real place where like you realize like as a man you have nothing to offer yeah i was like i was just getting constantly disrespected it was hilarious we went to pal when i first moved out like we went to paly house yeah and we waited in line for an hour and a half and when we got to the front of the line a dude who was dressed as like jack sparrow but not jack sparrow just like what he looked like he just like did like four of us and he goes it's not your night yeah dude it's the the power that

they have oh the disrespect bro it's the disrespect and then like You know, we were in line at this other place. And it's so funny, seeing people come up to, like, interact with the bouncer. They're like, hey, like, you remember me? Yeah. And he's like, no, can't do it. And there's a guy in front of us who I think he just didn't want to let in because it maybe, like, seemed kind of lame.

And so we were just standing there in line for like, 30 minutes. And the guy's like, hey, man, you know, he's letting people, you know, people come up. And he's like, oh, I know you. So he's letting people in. and the guy's like hey man we're next right and he's like it's gonna be a minute and then eventually the guy in front me and his girlfriend they just leave Jesus and then we get in right after that dude I was with the years ago I was with a friend who was a gal and we were just outside of bar and I was like literally telling the bouncer I was like

bro I will pay you to let me in yeah he just did not let and he never said officially no yeah he just waited for me to go yeah it's the disrespect I I get it. You don't want it to be a dude fest in there. You got to protect the vibe. You got to protect the ratio, bro. I mean, it's like, it is cruish.

Yeah, and it's like, if that's your job, I get it. But how do they all do the same face where they're all just like, dude, yeah, I just, you got to stand it like this. Did they get trained in that?

Like, they all do the same one, city to city. I think you just get so desensitized to it where you're like, you're just immune to flattery. Yeah. And then, but dude,

The overcharging on the drinks was infuriating. Oh, the markup's insane. You're like, you're like, you can't charge me like three times as much because I'm a dude. Come on, man. No, when we went to Vegas last time, the guy was like talking about bottle service. I'm just like, dude. And plus, they'll be like, all right, it's like $1,500 for a table and two bottles. Yeah.

They're going to make you buy, that's the minimum. They're going to make you buy three more bottles. You're spending like $10,000. And then you've got a tip like a crazy guy too. Dude. And you're just like, dude, it's just not worth it. Yeah. Yeah, just have a house party.

It is weird too because like you do it when you're young and it is worth it. Yeah. But honestly it would mean more to do it now. Yeah. Like it'd feel cooler. Totally. Oh, man. All right.

Chad, when you podcast the way you do, when you come on here. And it's like I just, you just enter a state. You're not there. You're there, but you're not there. And there's a cost to that. Yeah. You don't pay that for free. When you're a comedian.

A comedian. Think about what that is. To bring comedy to the Eans. Ean is an Egyptian word. That means people beneath the pyramid. You bring that to them, but you've got to climb down and climb back up. That's my pain. That's your pain, brother.

And no one will ever understand it. So come see me at Chuckles this Friday for 20 minutes. For 20 minutes. Come see me. banana brima in hoboken please do come see us at our dates though yeah yeah we got bozeman coming up and washing dc bidex where are you where are you at next with the show chicago bro let's go the den is it sold out it's close dude go um oh cream jean's gonna hit open mic for the first time do it cream jeans it'd be a brand new world but you'd be a totally different person afterwards

flint michigan i'd like to come there yeah yeah michael Moore's house. All right. All right. See you guys later. Later, bros. We got a draft next week.