Going West: True Crime - Natalie Bollinger // 369

Starting point is 00:00:00 What is going on True Crime fans, I'm your host Tee. And I'm your host Daphne. And you're listening to Going West. Hello everybody, big thank you to Claire for recommending today's case. This is a very disturbing story that definitely takes a shocking turn, so our hearts go out to Natalie's family for all they've had to endure in this extremely rattling case. Absolutely, and also this week on December 31st will be five full years since we started going west, almost 370 episodes later, plus over 100 bonus episodes.

Starting point is 00:00:51 Meaning in five years we have covered almost 500 stories, and we couldn't share these tales and spread information about victims that need justice and cases that need attention without each and every one of you listening. So thank you guys so much. Yes, thank you guys so much from the bottom of our hearts. Now it's time to dive into today's case. All right guys, this is episode 369 of Going West. So let's get into it. Just before New Year's Eve of 2017, a 19-year-old woman was found murdered in a wooded area of a Colorado farm. When police took note of a recent Facebook post

Starting point is 00:02:07 about a long time stalker, questions and red flags were raised. But in a twist of events, text messages led police to a disturbing Craigslist post associated with the case. associated with the case. This is the story of Natalie Bollinger. Natalie Marie Bowlinger was born on February 24, 1998 in Westminster, Colorado, alongside a twin sister named Alicia, to parents Rose and Ted. Their parents eventually split up and her mom settled in Virginia, marrying a man named

Starting point is 00:03:01 James, while their dad Ted married a woman named Shelley. So the twins grew up in a large blended family of brothers Gabe, Conrad and Ted Jr. and little sisters Luna and Violet, which meant that the girls split their time between Colorado and Virginia, and also spent some time in Rhode Island. Natalie's mom rose, remembers her as a gifted artist who started drawing as a kid and said that her talent only blossomed in adulthood. Having struggled intermittently with mental health issues, Natalie was deeply empathetic. By her mom's description, quote, she treated everyone and everything with respect and dignity, no matter their station or circumstances.

Starting point is 00:03:46 She began her high school education at Churchland High School in Virginia while living with her mom, and then concluded her studies at Pathways High School in Colorado, graduating early, eager to pursue her career. But things took a turn when in a short span of time, she endured multiple serious car accidents, one of which was at the hands of a friend who had been drinking and accelerated to 120 miles per hour, or 193 kilometers per hour, before curing off the road. After multiple traumatic accidents resulting in injuries, Natalie actually took an interest in the medical field and pledged to work in healthcare. So all these accidents actually led her to what she realized would

Starting point is 00:04:31 be her passion. So I guess that is one really the only positive of such horrific events. So she enrolled in a local college with aspirations of becoming a registered nurse. When she relocated back to Colorado, she moved in with her grandparents, Ted's parents, to attend school and keep an eye on her grandfather who was suffering a terminal illness. The change of scenery, though it may have been necessary, weighed quite heavily on Natalie, as did caring for her grandfather. Her family was aware that she suffered from deep insecurity and intermittent mental health issues and acknowledges that she had even attempted to take her own life multiple times. She also had a history of drug use, which is something that unfortunately ran in her family,

Starting point is 00:05:15 as Natalie once shared with a friend that both her dad and uncle were using methamphetamine and that she was concerned about their health and safety. However, leading up to her death, she seemed to be on an upward trajectory and was doing well across many aspects in her life. After graduating high school, she and her boyfriend Joseph Moreno, or Joey, moved in together and were excited about the prospects of this. But when Natalie was 17, she met a homeless man in his early 30s and the two struck up an unlikely friendship.

Starting point is 00:05:46 Like Daphne said, Natalie had a huge heart, but unbeknownst to Natalie, this would become a terrifying situation. So according to her mom, Rose, Natalie approached this man Sean Schwartz on the street when she observed everyone around him ignoring him. Empathizing with how abandoned he felt, she struck up a conversation with Sean and was just captivated by his unusual life story. The two became friends on Facebook and she tried to help him when she could, even if that meant just lending a listening ear. He quickly became enamored with her, posting updates on Facebook in which he referred to her as Miss Natalie, saying that she had saved his life and that she was his hero. But after knowing each other for a couple of years, their relationship soured.

Starting point is 00:06:35 Eventually, Natalie headed back to Virginia to stay with her mom for a bit, after a particularly bad bout with depression, plans what she shared with Sean on Facebook Messenger. Then, with no invitation or inclination that this would be something that Natalie wanted, Sean told her that he was going to drive from Colorado to Virginia to see her. Clearly feeling uncomfortable by this and just fed up with her boundaries continually being crossed, Natalie's mom Rose claims that Natalie wound up cutting Sean off and ending their friendship altogether. But Sean then arrived at Rose's house where Natalie was briefly staying in Virginia, parked and laid on the horn until Rose called the police and had him arrested.

Starting point is 00:07:25 Now Sean, who was extremely active on social media, responded to this by posting a flurry of Facebook statuses and YouTube videos attacking Natalie's character and her choice to end their contact. And this was just like into the void. It's not like he had this big online presence or anything yet. He was taking to the internet to just like into the void. It's not like he had this big online presence or anything yet. He was taking to the internet to just like

Starting point is 00:07:47 let out all of his emotions about this situation. I gotta say, I gotta say, I just find it really weird when people do this, when they just kinda like lay out all their tea on their Facebook page. It's like, come on, like, it's so, it's very awkward. It's so awkward and uncomfortable. It's kind of like, keep that to yourself and your close friends like, it's so, it's very awkward. It's so awkward and uncomfortable. It's kind of like, keep that to yourself and your close friends like no need to spill all this.

Starting point is 00:08:10 And of course, Natalie, rightfully so, does not want to talk to him and he is putting her on blast, even though she didn't do anything wrong. She is more than welcome to terminate any friendship that she wants to terminate. So on December 14th, 2017, exactly two weeks before she disappeared, 19-year-old Natalie posted this on Facebook.

Starting point is 00:08:33 Hey, y'all, I have a public announcement. There is a man, Sean Schwartz. I met this man when I was young. I ran into him about two years ago. Long story short, I became friends with him. I helped him out with rides and stuff. I moved to Virginia. He drove across the country to see me, slept behind my work for weeks.

Starting point is 00:08:55 When I told him I didn't want to see him anymore, he sent me hundreds of texts and calls. He parked his car in front of my house, blocking military highway for hours, laying on his horn. He was arrested. Since then, I've asked him to leave me alone, and he won't. He sent emails for over a year, close to every day, harassing me. Making numerous accounts until I block him again, threatening my family, telling me he'll kill himself in front of me, and sending my friends and family harassing messages as well.

Starting point is 00:09:29 I'm sharing this because he's posting slander about me all over Facebook, so if you receive a message, I am sincerely sorry. Please ignore him, it only encourages him when he gets a response. Much like a child. He's mentally ill ill and I'm trying to fix this. So obviously this makes sense that she's posting this even though it is a personal situation because she is worried about this affecting those around her and she's just saying, Hey, FYI, this is what's going on. If you hear from the sky, now you know the

Starting point is 00:10:00 situation. Yeah, she's just trying to warn people. Exactly. So about a week later, on December 22, 2017, Natalie was officially granted a restraining order against Sean. In it, she detailed the threats that he made against her, including telling her, quote, you have one week to talk to me before I take these threats seriously and have no choice except to retaliate. Meanwhile, Sean continued his campaign against Natalie on social media, claiming he needed to tell his side of the story, and that Natalie was lying and conducting a smear campaign against him. Like, God, just leave the poor girl alone.

Starting point is 00:10:45 campaign against him. Like God just leave the poor girl alone. Yeah, seriously. So that winter of 2017, 19 year old Natalie enjoyed Christmas with her family in Colorado. And hope that Sean would heed the restraining order and cease contact so that she could move on with her life. Then on Thursday December 28, 2017, another strange circumstance arose. That day Natalie's boyfriend Joey headed into work early around 6am, leaving her at home in their apartment. Around 9am and then at 1.30pm, Joey and Natalie chatted via text, and Joey noted that there didn't seem to be anything out of the ordinary about their interactions. The last thing that she told him was that there was someone knocking on the door, but

Starting point is 00:11:30 when he arrived home from work at 3.18 pm that afternoon, Natalie was gone. Rose missed a call from her daughter around 2 pm that afternoon, but by the time she called her back, Natalie had stopped answering her phone. So Joey called Rose to ask if she had heard from Natalie, and Rose then called Natalie's twin sister Alicia, but no one had spoken with her, and she had stopped answering the phone altogether without anyone having a clear picture of where she had gone or if anything was wrong. However, a quick sweep of Natalie and Joey shared Colorado apartment brought Joey to the realization that his gun, which was a 9mm, lock handgun,

Starting point is 00:12:12 was missing and he began to fear the worst. He also discovered that Natalie had left her phone behind, which was very uncharacteristic of her. Though it had only been a couple of hours since he had heard from her, he felt that something was gravely wrong and called the police to report his girlfriend missing. Knowing that she had just filed a restraining order less than a week prior to her disappearance, both Joey, Natalie's family and the responding officers feared that Sean, out of revenge, had something to do with Natalie's disappearance. So the following day, December 29, 2017, the Adams County Sheriff's Office located

Starting point is 00:12:54 Sean and brought him in for questioning. He had been staying at the apartment of a friend and claimed that he hadn't left the apartment the day prior at all, except to go to a nearby convenience store to pick up a few groceries. True to the restraining order, he claimed that he hadn't had any contact with Natalie and that he assumed she hadn't even been in town for the holiday. So not convinced of his involvement, the police released Sean, but vowed to follow up with him. However, investigators did take note that he was willing to help and seem concerned for

Starting point is 00:13:31 her, even saying that he'd been alerted that she was missing and was going to look for her. That same day, again December 29th, at 1.43pm, so 24 hours after anyone had contact with Natalie, a local place to call claiming to have come across a human body. In a wooded area at the intersection of East 116th Avenue and Riverdale Road near McIntosh Farm, which is a dairy farm north east of Denver, a body was recovered from the brush. Natalie's grandmother actually saw the discovery on television and contacted law enforcement herself, fearing that it could be related to Natalie's disappearance. And sadly, the remains were quickly confirmed to be Natalie, and foul

Starting point is 00:14:20 play was suspected as she had been shot in the head. On December 30th, before the police had officially identified the recovered remains, Natalie's dad Ted announced on Facebook, my daughter has been murdered. Her family quickly placed the blame on Sean as it seemed like too much of a coincidence given how he had been harassing Natalie the past few weeks.

Starting point is 00:14:44 So police were now shifting from a missing person's investigation to a murder investigation, and their only person of interest was 37-year-old Sean Schwartz. Meanwhile, Sean continued to be extremely vocal on his Facebook and YouTube pages, posting concerning updates that appeared as if his mental health was declining rapidly. He would post frequent videos and status updates, calling the suspicions against him a witch hunt, and claiming he had nothing to do with Natalie's murder. And even though at this point, no one knew whether or not he was telling the truth without

Starting point is 00:15:22 more evidence, Sean's behavior online was becoming concerning, separate even from the allegations. On January 5th, 2018, police performed a welfare check on him, apprehending him at St. John's Episcopal Church in Boulder, Colorado, and transporting him to Boulder's foothills hospital, where he was placed on a 72-hour psychiatric hold. At this point, Sean ceased to be the harmless victim that he portrayed himself to be. Police claimed that he responded by becoming increasingly agitated and violent,

Starting point is 00:15:58 and even assaulted an officer while refusing arrest.. But Sean was released shortly afterwards on January 10, 2018, and immediately returned to Facebook to tell his side of the story. He blamed Natalie's friends, family, police, the media, and the community for vilifying him, and continued to insist that he didn't have anything to do with the murder, or know who did. In one video that was posted to YouTube, he explained quote, they took me to the hospital. They were telling me that I was on a 72 hour hold because I was suicidal. Who the fuck wouldn't be?

Starting point is 00:16:36 You guys have been harassing me for a week straight. My best friend is dead. I've been blamed for everything from stalking to rape to child molestation to murder for this. So when I got out of Boulder County jail, they had painted me as some sort of violent animal on the goddamn news. However, much to the surprise of locals who were absolutely gripped by this case and seemed convinced of Sean's guilt, Sean was cleared of involvement in Natalie's murder a short while later. Now he was still guilty of assault of an officer and resisting arrest and would have to attend court for those crimes.

Starting point is 00:17:14 And his obsession with and stalking of Natalie was of course not absolved simply because he was not guilty of murdering her. But at least in the case of her murder charge, police were convinced that Sean was just not involved. They scoured both his phone and his computer for any data indicating that he had been with her on the evening that she disappeared, or that he had been planning to kill her, and they found no indication that he had. Though the Court of Public Opinion was still ruling against him, investigators were moving forward and focused on continuing their efforts to find the true perpetrator here.

Starting point is 00:17:52 So on January 2, 2018, Natalie's autopsy was performed and as police suspected, she had died of a single gunshot wound to the head. However, no gun or bullet had been recovered at the scene, leading pleased to be sure that someone else had been there and likely committed the crime themselves. The report stated, quote, the circumstances of death suggest that this wound was inflicted by another person. But strangely, the forensic pathologist also revealed that there was a potentially lethal level of heroin in her bloodstream at the time of her death.

Starting point is 00:18:30 In his words, quote, she had used heroin shortly before her death. She had a very high level. Most people would be dead with the level that she had in her system. Despite this, police were confident that she had been killed by someone else's hand, and possibly even drugged by someone. But if not Sean, then who? As investigators tried to find the culprit behind Natalie's killing, they of course briefly considered her boyfriend Joey, as Natalie had been honest with friends and family, including Sean, that the two had had issues in the past. But police eliminated him quickly, because basically Joey said that he wasn't sure who

Starting point is 00:19:34 Natalie had been talking to, or who could have been responsible because he had agreed per Natalie's request not to go into her phone. Police also verified his whereabouts on the day of her disappearance, and security camera footage from Joey's place of employment proved that he was not at home at the time Natalie was believed to have left their apartment. But then, a strange tip came forward from the Arvada Police Department. Natalie was believed to have been a witness in a shooting just hours before she disappeared. So the day she vanished, the same day she's believed to have been

Starting point is 00:20:11 killed. Two cars, each with multiple people in them, were involved in an altercation that resulted in one car shooting at the other. The car with the gunman then sped off, and multiple people in the car on the receiving end of the gunshots claim that they saw a young woman poke her head out of the car to look back at them, checking to see if the man who was shot out was okay. And this woman was described as matching Natalie's description. The driver admitted to shooting at the man in the other car, but insisted that he did not know Natalie, and that she hadn't been in the car with them other car but insisted that he did not know Natalie and that she hadn't been in the car with them that day and that he hadn't even heard of her murder.

Starting point is 00:20:50 When they confirmed that a young woman who is similar in appearance to Natalie had been the one in the car and that she had actually been the one who looked back at the other car, they were able to close that case, arresting the driver for assault with a deadly weapon, but they still had no leads in the case of Natalie's murder. On January 17, 2018, police finally obtained Natalie's cell phone records from her service provider and poured over them, finding one surprise. Hundreds of texts exchanged with a number that she didn't have saved in her contacts, all of which were later deleted.

Starting point is 00:21:32 On the day that Natalie disappeared, 111 text messages were exchanged, starting as early as 5 a.m. And then later that day, contact ceased, and the conversation was deleted. The cell phone number belonged to a 22-year-old area man named Joseph Lopez. He was an unassuming character, quiet and law-abiding, and worked at a local Domino's pizza shop. But as investigators were conducting reconnaissance. They verified his employment and discovered, confirmed by his Domino's branch, that he had called in sick to work for three days after Natalie's disappearance. On February 8, 2018, police apprehended Joseph while he was at work at Domino's and brought him in for questioning.

Starting point is 00:22:21 Before police even questioned him about Natalie, he addressed her saying he assumed that he knew why they were questioning him, but claimed that he hadn't even known Natalie's name. Joseph admitted that he used Craigslist to meet friends, women, and pen pals. And according to Joseph on December 28, 2017, at 6.25am, Natalie posted a listing on Craigslist that read quote, Can you put a head out on yourself? I need someone to do this for me. I'm not trying to be saved. This is not a cry for help. I've made this decision. I don't need to be talked down. I just want someone to do it for me. I'm seriously asking, this isn't a fucking game, I just need help doing it." Joseph explained that he had struggled with mental health issues in the past,

Starting point is 00:23:13 and it also experienced suicidal ideation, so he claimed that initially, he reached out in an attempt to help her, hoping he could try to talk her down, and convince her not to follow through with it. They chatted back and forth for a bit, but he claimed Natalie seemed staunch in her commitment to end her life. So Joseph changed course, hoping to meet up with her so that he could stop her from following through with it. According to him, that afternoon, he picked her up from her apartment in his car, and they drove around for two or three hours talking about why she had come to the conclusion that ending her life was her only recourse.

Starting point is 00:23:54 Joseph claimed that Natalie eventually got fed up with him because he wasn't following through with what she wanted him to do, and that she asked to be dropped off on the side of the road near her home to which she obliged. When she asked if he had a gun, he said no, and she then brought out the gun that she had taken from her boyfriend, Joey. Natalie apparently said that she wanted to be killed execution style and offered to leave him the gun as payment. But as police listen to Joseph's version of events unfold, they noted that he changed elements of his story multiple times. Throughout the course of his line of questioning with police,

Starting point is 00:24:34 Joseph told them three different versions of what happened that evening. He first explained that they couldn't find a place to carry out the shooting and that he had dropped her back at her apartment. But that seemed unlikely to investigators as they had traced his phone's location within five yards of the farm

Starting point is 00:24:52 where Natalie's body was recovered. He then broke down and explained that he had watched her kill herself while he pleaded with her not to do so. According to Joseph, Natalie had been looking out the car window for places that they would be able to fire a gun discreetly, and she asked him to pull over near Mackinthosh farm. He got out of the car and said that he tried to reason with her,

Starting point is 00:25:18 but that she shot herself in front of him to a cheap panicked and fled. However, the forensic pathologist determined that the gun had most likely been fired from a distance between six and 12 inches away from her head, which is a determination that was made from the amount of gunpowder residue found on her body. At this revelation faced with his lies,

Starting point is 00:25:42 Joseph broke down in tears, explaining that she had begged him to do it, and that he had obliged while his hands shook and he looked away as Natalie set a short prayer and Joseph shot her and fled with her gun and her belongings. And police could at least confirm that the gun was still in his car that day. He claims the guilt consumed him afterward, but that he was scared and tried to put it out of his mind. Now the heroine was a curious element of the story, and one that we may never have an answer to. Joseph claims that he didn't know where it had come from, and said that

Starting point is 00:26:17 he had not participated in the drug use with Natalie, but it's possible that he very much did. Investigators didn't completely believe his final iteration of the story because Joseph had openly admitted to having a rich fantasy life and he had lied multiple times already. By his own admission, Joseph was a horror-efficient auto and kept journals in which he wrote out elaborate stories about a hitman character carrying out kidnappings, then violently torturing and murdering his victims. And he would frequently fantasize about how that scenario would play out. And I gotta say, you know, just because you write about this stuff doesn't mean that you wanna do it.

Starting point is 00:26:54 Like I just recently watched Anatomy of a Fall which came out this year in 2023, and one line in it when they're talking about how somebody could do something because they wrote about it or pulled from their own life. And my favorite line in that movie is Stephen King, a serial killer. So it's kind of like, it doesn't mean that because he wrote about it, he had to have done it, but he lied multiple times. And it seemed like he was interested in possibly carrying this out.

Starting point is 00:27:21 And it kind of is a weird coincidence that he wrote about a hitman, and then is saying that he was hired to perform a hit on somebody else. Yeah, absolutely. And we have talked about this many times in the show, just because you like horror doesn't mean you're into that type of shit, like you just said. But the circumstances is that the police,

Starting point is 00:27:43 they were tracking his phone, they tracked it to the Macintosh farm where her body was found, you know, it just seems all too convenient here. And it seems like him saying, oh, I watched her do it. She did it. I didn't do it. I was trying to talk her out of it. It's almost like he's trying to get away with it until finally saying I did it. Well, the craziest thing here is that verified by Natalie's email account, she had in fact made this post on Craigslist. Which I want to kind of talk about a little later.

Starting point is 00:28:14 Well by pure bad luck and coincidence, Joseph had seen it and replied to it within two minutes. And just minutes later it was reported and taken down. But please argue that Joseph had been cultivating this desire of his for a long time based on his Hitman character that he was developing. And they also believe that he had likely not been trying to talk her out of it at all, and had instead been intoxicated by having so much control over the situation. Her family actually agreed with this assessment, calling it a crime of opportunity, and saying that he took advantage of Natalie's declining mental state to carry out a narrative

Starting point is 00:28:53 that he'd been envisioning since he was in high school. The same day that he was brought in for questioning, again February 8, 2018, he was officially arrested for the murder of Natalie Bolinger. Joseph accepted a plea deal, so his sentencing moved swiftly. While he was initially charged with first degree murder, he pleaded guilty to second degree murder in exchange for reduced sentence and a possibility of parole. Then, on Monday, December 3, 2018, nearly a year after Natalie's death, Joseph Lopez was sentenced to 48 years in prison for the murder of Natalie Bolinger. Chief Deputy District Attorney Ali Beiber addressed the injustice of the situation, telling

Starting point is 00:29:43 the courtroom, quote, Natalie Bolinger was a 19 year old girl with her whole life ahead of her. The defendant was a predator. He didn't respond as a human being. He responded as a predator. He had hours and hours of opportunity to do the right thing and save her life, but he chose to murder her. Now, ironically, as Joseph Sentin's employee deal were announced, Natalie's dad Ted was in custody facing a charge of parole violation, meaning he and his daughter's murderer were

Starting point is 00:30:15 placed in the same jail. Ted stated, quote, it was actually good though, they messed up by putting me in here. I got clarity on a lot of different things in my daughter's case. Joseph talked to too many people while he was here. He confided in too many people. When asked about the sentencing, Ted said that he was disappointed and viewed it as lenient, explaining, quote, there's no justice in this, and for Adams County to have enough evidence to convict him and then make him an offer is a spit in my family's face. Now, Sean's presence in Natalie's life remains a strange mystery, and no one, including

Starting point is 00:30:56 family, friends, law enforcement, nor Sean himself, have been able to clear up exactly what happened between the two. When one friend asked if they had been dating, Natalie responded, no fucking way, LOL. I was just being nice, being a friend, then he went crazy. But the nature of their relationship was never explicit, and it seems possible that Sean may have confused her kindness for romantic attention. In February of 2017, 10 months before she died, Natalie posted a graphic on Facebook that read, quote, what goes around comes around. In the aftermath of her death and the accusations mounted against him, Sean wrote in a comment,

Starting point is 00:31:38 quote, in that case, you got what was coming to you. And that's just one of dozens of disturbing comments that he left publicly for Natalie on her Facebook, the social media profiles of other members of her family, his own YouTube and Facebook pages, and even news reports concerning her murder and the subsequent investigation. And disturbingly, he continues to do so even now, six years later. On Natalie's memorial page, which is still active today, Sean's vitriol is still on full display with comments ranging from, she was a player,

Starting point is 00:32:14 she only cared about her drugs at the end, to, you destroyed my life for no reason, to, you didn't care about the truth, and people have been more cruel to me than you ever had to endure. Why, because you lied? In one particularly unsettling post, he wrote, quote, �Natalie, I only wanted the best for you.

Starting point is 00:32:36 Now all I want is for you to go through the hell I have lived. I want to blow my head off in front of you so close that you can feel the warm spatter of my blood on your face. Which holy fuck that is disturbing. It's aggressive. Yeah. On November 10th of this year, Sean posted a go-fun me with a description that reads quote, Hello, my name is Sean Schwartz.

Starting point is 00:32:59 I'm a disabled homeless man who is harassed, assaulted, and abused over the death of Natalie Bollinger. I need help with getting a guardian and turning in non-stop abuse from the last seven years." He also has posted screenshots of his private Facebook messages with Natalie captioned quote, "...evidence I told the truth, and the message is detailed that she had been struggling leading up to her death, and that they had maintained a friendly relationship until shortly before she was killed. Yeah, I just feel like he really needs to let it rest, and obviously this must just be

Starting point is 00:33:33 so retraumatizing for her family if they have to see all these consistent posts over the last what, six years? Yeah, yeah. But I want to go back a minute, because obviously it is a shock to us all to learn that that Craigslist post was posted under Natalie's email address, which leads police to believe that she was the one who posted it. And for sensitivity purposes, I don't want to speculate on it too much, but I kind of want to go back to her day that day because we know that she had been texting her boyfriend Joey and we

Starting point is 00:34:06 know that her mom rose missed a call from her around 2 p.m. that afternoon. So it kind of makes me wonder what was going on. We know that she had told Joey the last thing that she told her boyfriend Joey was that there was somebody out the door. So I just wish we had more answers for this. I wish her family had more answers because she didn't leave any type of note that we know of or that the public or investigation knows of. And it just really makes you wonder what happened.

Starting point is 00:34:34 She everything quote unquote seemed normal that day. So did she leave to meet up with this guy Joseph Lopez and she brought the gun and that was all on purpose or is there a little more to the story that has not been revealed? I mean, it is really hard for me to believe knowing that that post did come from her email, the fact that her boyfriend's gun was missing, that seemed to match up with the gun that was used to kill her. Those things lead me to believe that maybe this is all true, but it really is just such a tragic story. But yeah, I mean, I do agree that I still think that there are a lot of

Starting point is 00:35:11 questions that have not been answered yet. Right, and then we have to talk about the heroine thing, because if Joseph Lopez is saying that he wasn't around her when she did this heroine, but there was enough in her system to be lethal, That makes me wonder if he's lying about that as well, and where that came from, and when she would have done it, if not in front of him. You know what I mean? It just feels like, especially considering he was caught in multiple lies, is there anything else that he's not saying that could put even more blame and guilt on to him? Well, despite all this confusion and, you know, the baffling twist of events that led to Natalie's death,

Starting point is 00:35:50 we will likely never know exactly what happened between Sean and Natalie, but hopefully the future will bring more clarity regarding what happened between Natalie and her killer. Thank you so much everybody for listening to this episode of Going West. Yes, thank you guys so much for listening to this episode and on Tuesday we'll have an all new case for you guys to dive into. Also I just want to say what a, what a twisty and very strange case to be covered today. Like I mean it's just like you feel like the case was going one way and it just totally took you in a different direction. I know it was a shock to research this one because I think we all thought we knew where

Starting point is 00:36:42 it was going and when it didn't, it was just like, whoa, what? Well, hopefully Natalie's family can get more closure and just get some of the answers that they don't have already. Absolutely. Again, thank you all so much for five years of going west. We hope to do this for a long time. So it means the world that you guys tune in every week and listen to our show. Thank you so so much and we hope you have a very safe and fun and happy new year.

Starting point is 00:37:09 Yes, thank you guys so much. We love you guys. Have an amazing new year and we'll see you in 2024. All right guys, so for everybody out there in the world, don't be a stranger. Thank you. you

Going West: True Crime - Natalie Bollinger // 369

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