Going West: True Crime - Norman Ladner // 253

Episode Date: November 16, 2022

In August of 1989, a 17-year-old boy went hunting on his family’s property, but never returned. When his dad went out to search for him, he found his son dead in the woods. And although his manner of death was thought to be an accident, a stranger’s suspicious threat to the family convinced them that he had been murdered. This is the story of Norman Ladner. BONUS EPISODES patreon.com/goingwestpodcast CASE SOURCES 1. Unsolved Mysteries: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfiT5gHtjT4 2. Norman Senior's Obituary: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/13207298/norman-ladner 3. Norman's Obituary: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/13207222/norman-charles-ladner 4. Hattiesburg American: https://www.newspapers.com/image/278179601/?terms=norman%20charles%20ladner&match=1 5. Tumblr: https://www.tumblr.com/driedfruitcrap/613240535354900480/my-towns-biggest-mystery-the-death-of-norman 6. True Crime Diva: https://truecrimediva.com/norman-ladner/ 7. Unsolved Mysteries Website: https://unsolved.com/gallery/norman-ladner/#comment-9230 8. Lorance's Find A Grave: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/78301326/ulmer-lorance-lumpkin 9. All That's Interesting: https://allthatsinteresting.com/dixie-mafia 10. Picayune, MS Archives:  https://picayune.ms.us/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Meeting-Minutes/1989.pdf 11. The Clarksdale Press Register: https://www.newspapers.com/image/268363999/?terms=lorance%20lumpkin%20dog%20fight&match=1 12. Unsolved Mysteries (Follow-up episode): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3eZmJpOd_4 13. Criminal Misconduct: https://criminalmisconduct.blogspot.com/2020/09/the-murders-of-kevin-ives-and-don-henry.html Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What is going on to Cranfans? I'm your host Tee. And I'm your host Daphne. And you're listening to Going West. Hope everybody is doing well. Thank you for tuning in. Things are crazy over here this week at Dark West Studios as we prepare for Thanksgiving. Which is such a delicious time of year, isn't it? Yeah, it really is. And it'll be nice to have a little bit of time off to hang out with some family. And parents are coming into town. They are, yeah. We're gonna do some holiday stuff. So it's gonna be really nice. It is. Oh, and before I forget, thank you so much to Leslie for recommending today's case.

Really appreciate it. Still working on getting back to everybody over the last month or so with Centin recommendation. I think you see that every episode. I know I just feel like I need to remind people that I'm still behind. She's won't. I say like twice a week, I'm sorry, dear God.

But yeah, the best way to do that is send in through email going westpodcastatgmail.com and yeah, and then also we actually just came out with a new Patreon episode. I don't know if you guys know about you probably do the lady of the dunes case at a Massachusetts that happened in Cape Cod. That was the oldest unidentified homicide victim in the state of Massachusetts, but she was identified on Halloween. So we had covered her case over the summer on Patreon. We just did an update because now they also think they knew who her killer was.

So that is a crazy story, crazy update. If you want to hear it, go to patreonpatran.com slash Going West podcast. All right, guys, this is episode 253 of Going West. So let's get into it. Thank you. In August of 1989, a 17-year-old boy went hunting on his family's Mississippi property, but never returned. When his dad went out to search for him, he found his son dead in the woods. And although his manner of death was thought to be an accident,

a stranger suspicious threat to the family convinced them that he had been murdered. This is the story of Norman Ladner. Norman Charles Ladner Jr. was born on May 29, 1972 in Caesar, Mississippi, which is a small farming community in Pearl River County about an hour northeast of New Orleans, Louisiana. So he grew up in a large Mormon family. His father, Norman Ladner Sr., was a building contractor, and his mother Charlotte tended to their seven kids and ran the family's country store.

Norman was the third born and the oldest boy, and he had three sisters named Michelle, Helen and Lisa, and then three brothers named Daniel, Charlie, and Matthew. And perhaps because he was a junior, he was sometimes affectionately known by the family as Boy. The Ladner family lived on a sprawling farm encompassing 122 acres, massive property, with more than half of the property being pastures. But there were also 60 acres of woods

just on their property alone. And the property was fenced on all sides. So that's important to remember for later, their property is fenced off. It doesn't just like run into somebody else's woods. They've got a property line here, very clear. So his dad said in an interview that Norman knew every foot of the land.

He was known around town as a popular and funny kid. He was a good student and well liked by both teachers and peers. Norman loved the outdoors, the peace and quiet of the woods, and spent much of his time fishing and hunting. He also loved animals. His mom remembered that he would come back to the house like super thrilled if he came across a deer on their property. He was a gifted craftsman and even had his own workshop

in the family barn that he liked to spend time in just being creative and productive. On August 22nd, 1989, 17-year-old Norman was heading into his senior year of high school. Now it was a typical muggy summer day in Mississippi, and Norman set out by himself to hunt on the family's property. His parents remember him as a punctual and responsible teenager who would always be back around 7pm, or 7.30pm at the latest, to help his parents close down the family's store, cleaning the floors and just restocking the shelves and coolers.

But when 7pm came and went with no sign of Norman, his parents were uneasy. His dad checked the barn to see if he had stopped by there to work on something and maybe lost track of time, but he wasn't there. Norman's mom Charlotte decided to wait for him at the store instead of closing up, wondering if he'd been injured or bitten by a snake while he was out in the woods. She hoped that if he was, he may seek out the store first, and that she would be right there to help him. Meanwhile, Norman's father, Norman Senior, set out to search for him on foot with the

family's dogs and a friend to his system, feeling like he had to be on the property somewhere and just hoping that he was okay. But around 10 p.m., the unthinkable happened when Norman Sr. stumbled upon his son, Norman Jr.'s limp body laying on the ground in the dirt. His father rushed to him, hoping to save him, but his body was cold, and his dad later said that he knew right then and there that his son had been dead for hours, long before they even wondered where he was. Please came out to inspect the area and close it off with caution tape, and Norman's time of death was ruled as August 22nd, 1989 at 10.30pm, because that's when they

found him dead at the scene, not when he had actually passed away. He had taken a single shot to his right temple, and it had exited through his left, killing him instantly. The responding officers conducted a cursory search of the area, but didn't suspect anything nefarious. In fact, foul play was initially ruled out because police saw nothing at the scene to indicate that a struggle had occurred, or that anyone else had been present at the time aside from Norman himself.

There were a few details, however, that made Norman's parents doubt that a murder had not taken place. So Norman's shotgun had been broken with the butt and the muzzle separated, and upon further examination, they found that it had actually been broken and repaired in the past,

and seemed to have been broken again from force. And strangely, neither investigators nor the ladders were ever able to locate the bullet that they believe killed him. Now at first glance, it really seemed to be the scene of an accident, and Pearl River County Sheriff Ulmer Lawrence Lumpkin, who went by Lawrence, said that he initially thought it to be an accidental death as well. Norman had been found beneath a tree, and Lawrence theorized that he had been climbing it,

fell out, and discharged his gun by accident, conveniently shooting him in the temple, which feels like it would have to be the most perfect situation to go straight through his temple like that. Like a 1.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000. a police car pull up. She remembers asking simply, is he dead? To which the officer responded, yes. Charlotte said, quote, I can tell you it's the most shattering experience anyone can go through. With the lack of evidence pointing this to anything, as Heath said, it seemed to be an open and shut case, but Norman was taken away for an autopsy anyway, which was completed the very next morning. The scene was swept, but it was late at night in a dark and densely wooded area, so not

the best situation to search for evidence. But as we stated previously, they never found the bullet belonging to the gun that Norman had been carrying. The bullet, which was believed to have killed him, so where did it go? At the time, Norman Senior and Charlotte also assumed that it was an accident, but this was no comfort to parents who had just lost their son, because either way, he was gone. Police maintained that they were 90% sure that it was an accidental shooting, so there was still just a shred of doubt in their minds.

But the morning after Norman's death, when an autopsy was performed, the corner officially ruled it as a suicide via close-range gunshot. This shocked the family, who refused to believe the new cause of death. Norman Senior said quote, It was impossible for it to be a suicide. I knew my son too well. He enjoyed any lived life to the fullest. He was happy.

He was outgoing. He was not depressed in any way. He had too many things going for him. It also definitely wouldn't have been that easy to shoot himself in the temple with a shotgun, which has an average length of about 26 inches, or around the same length of a 17 year old's arm give or take. I literally looked up the average length of a 17 year old's arm, and it is like 26.0 inches seriously.

Wow, that's kind of crazy. I know, it's like almost the exact same size. However, Lawrence and his team were now convinced that the gunshot wound was self-inflicted, and that Norman had shot himself on purpose, not on accident. And the corner cited the way that Norman was positioned on the ground for his justification of this. Because based on the way that he was lying crumpled on the ground after falling, they believed it to be a self-inflicted gunshot wound

to the right set of his head, and guessed that he had fallen back, dropping and breaking the gun in the process. Now, investigators chose not to continue their investigation, or search the surrounding areas, or even fingerprint the gun that they believed took Norman's life, which would prove to be a mistake. Processing all this information, the family tried to piece their lives back together, and come to terms with the reality of what had happened. But as weeks went by, they became more and more suspicious of the investigation and critical of the ruling. Instead of foul play, Charlotte, again, Norman's mom, had actually been clinging to the idea of it being an accident,

not able to believe that her son would have taken his own life. That is, until the lagnars read something in his autopsy that they had not heard before. Now the coroner observed that Norman had a 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 Investigators observed blood on a tree root near Norman's body. Now they determined that as Norman had fallen, he had hit his head on impact, causing this laceration. Upon inspecting the site further, his father argued that that would have been impossible, because again, the cut had been directly on the top of his head, and there just seemed like there was no way that he would have fallen in the proper position

To allow for impact on the top of his head after he had allegedly shot himself. Yeah, like you could imagine that if he had fallen backwards He might have hit like the base of his skull or even near even near the top of the back of his head But not directly on the top. Yeah back of his head, but not directly on the top. Yeah, it just seemed weird. And that's what we're saying. Like it's so this the method of potential suicide, there's something weird that would have to be perfect, which is the hitting on the top of the head.

And then the accidental shooting would have to be perfect, like more of a one in a million situation. Obviously, people can hit the top of their heads, but it is, it's definitely very specific. And it seems like maybe that would happen if somebody hit him over the head. But you could also argue the same. Would somebody hit the top of his head? Versus the back? I don't know.

Yeah. So though it is also possible that Norman had hit his head prior to shooting himself, and maybe that the blood spatter on the route was simply spray from the gunshot. His parents were now convinced that there were very suspicious circumstances involved here. So the ladeners actually began their own investigation, which is sadly something we see all the time in cases like this where parents are not getting the answers that they need. So painstakingly, and this is so horrific to imagine, this family sifted through every grain of dirt

in and around the area where Norman was found, just desperately searching for any indication that could point to somebody else being involved. And Charlotte remembered this process having a profound effect on her, saying, quote, Though this is a truly unimaginable task, their efforts did not go un-rewarded, because Norman's family

were actually able to locate a longer bullet that could not have come from Norman's shotgun. So that tells us that there would have been another gun present. Obviously, we know that people in this family hunt, but I think this is something they would have taken into account and what are the chances that on all 60 acres of woods in this very spot in the area of his body is a long bullet. Yeah. And, you know, obviously like you're saying, they know the places on their property in which guns were probably fired.

And they're probably using shotguns too. And they also probably knew, know what ammunition they use with their own guns. So it's like, if this bullet doesn't match any of their guns, they're like, okay, obviously this is somebody else was there. Yeah, and what you're about to say too, is also makes the whole situation even more crazy. Yeah, because when his parents inspected it under a microscope, they found that it had both blood and a piece of hair on it.

So could that mean that this was the bullet that killed Norman and not the one from his own gun like police are saying? It appears that it is. So its shape was twisted slightly and had a chip taken out of it. And strangely, this bullet was lodged beneath Norman's head, embedded two inches into the ground. If it had indeed been the bullet that had killed him, this would change the entire course of the investigation, as it would have been

physically impossible for Norman to shoot himself at that angle, so instead it pointed to someone standing over him and shooting him from above, rather than Norman shooting himself while standing up. Also, that particular bullet likely would have not fit in his gun anyway, but when the ladeners brought their findings to Lawrence, he argued, quote, we have no way of knowing where that bullet came from. We don't have any reason to believe that it was the bullet that was fired that caused the boy's death. Mainly because we feel that the boy was standing at the time that the gun was fired. And if that being the case, with the direction of travel that the pathologist says that the

bullet took, it would have not been in the ground underneath of his head. So the shitty thing here is that police suggested to the family that they just need to drop it and try to accept what had happened and move on. But Charlotte argued that she would not stop until she found justice for Norman saying, quote, this was my son. I will not back down under any circumstances. So what started as a seemingly black and white case began getting more complicated when three weeks after Norman's death. His parents began urging the coroner to reopen the investigation. And one afternoon, Charlotte and Norman's seniors stopped by the medical

examiner's office themselves to attempt to persuade him in person. As they did, a man who did not identify himself, walked up to Charlotte, took her aside, and politely asked to speak with her privately, so this is a man she does not know. But she explained that his plastic exterior changed when they were alone, and that he said to her, Mrs. Ladner, don't open this case up. You have other children. I suggest you raise them for your own good. You'll never find the person that killed your son.

And then he left. So this is very eerie because they're just trying to get the case reopened. This guy wants to talk to her privately and is basically telling her, don't look into this or you'll be sorry. The tone in his voice is like, you know, listen, you're making a big mistake here. It's threatening. It's threatening.

It's threatening. Yeah. It's threatening. It is. But I wonder if I wonder if he's trying to help her or he is on the other side, you know, I wonder if it came off as sympathetic, like, look, just try to drop it or drop it. You know what I mean?

Yeah, I mean, I don't know, but it seems to me that if anybody was gonna say something like that, it would be, it seems like it would be more of a threat than a, hey, I'm trying to help you, because if they really wanted to help her, they would say, listen, you need to push this as far as you can and get justice for your son.

Or tell her why he's saying this, like who he's thinking is in his mind. to help her, they would say, listen, you need to push this as far as you can and get justice for your son. Or tell her why he's saying this, like who he's thinking is in his mind. But as we will discuss later, there could be a reason why he's not saying this based on who people believe killed him, but we'll get into that. But I mean, since we're going back and forth on whether or not it did feel like a threat, I guess Charlotte said that she felt like it did or even felt like it was maybe blackmail like in an attempt to stop her from pursuing answers for her son But this still didn't deter her and they continued to chase down answers and conduct their own

investigation and the more they dug, the stranger the circumstances became. As we know, the Ladners had been conducting their own investigation without the help from any law enforcement. They passed the bullet that they found to a ballistics expert or a professional trained in the science of projectiles, with this specific expert specializing in bullets. Now he apparently said that he couldn't determine whether or not it had come from Norman's gun, although the Ladaners remained sure that it had not. But then, when the bullet was returned to them, they claimed that it was not even the

same bullet that they had given to this ballistics team, making them even more suspicious of a potential cover-up. I mean, how weird, I mean, I feel like like we said earlier, they probably know bullets fairly well. I mean, they owned a country store for God's sakes, you know? Yeah, yeah. So, the fact that they are saying that it was a different bullet is really, really sketchy. Yeah, and why would this person not give them back the correct bullet? Well, we're gonna get into that.

So, while out searching one day for more clues, Norman Sr. came across a crude homemade device that had been stashed on his property. It looked like some sort of call box that was attached to a tree with wires. Now, Norman Sr. described it as a quote, homemade radio, but police shrugged off the discovery,

telling the ladners that it wasn't relevant to the investigation, and that it had nothing to do with their son's death. I mean, how are they so confident in that? And it's so quick to shut this down as if they knew what it was, you know what I mean? Also, if it's on their property, and they don't know what it is,

like, yeah, that's pretty weird. Yeah, and especially if they've never seen it before either. Also, if it's on their property and they don't know what it is, like, yeah, that's pretty weird. Yeah, and especially if they've never seen it before either. Never seen it and are saying, our son died. Now we find this suspicious, like, call box thing on our property. What does this mean? And they're like, oh, it's not connected. Well, how do you know?

Well luckily, Norman Senior had a friend in the area who happened to be an ex-narconics agent. And when he brought the device to his friend, he was told that it was used by drug dealers to signal aircraft where to drop shipments of drugs. Now Norman Senior recalled quote, the former DEA or Drug Enforcement Agency agent said that this was a type of device that drug dealers used to signal aircraft by sending out a low-range signal for the proper alignment to drop a shipment of drugs. So obviously this was a huge shock to the family, who now believe that they had their motive for Norman's death.

Norman Senior surmised that, unbeknownst to the family, his property had been a drop site for drugs and a hotbed for drug activity in the area. Because remember, their property is massive with much of it being the woods. It was about 60 plus acres of woods. But again, I mean, this was a fenced off area. I wish we knew or gated off area. At least I wish we knew how high that gate was.

And if maybe people were coming onto their massive property without them knowing because like how are you going to really pay attention to that kind of thing when you have so much freaking land. I mean it feels like it would be a fairly easy thing to do and also go undetected. Exactly. So he believed that his son had maybe stumbled upon a drug deal in said woods of their property and that they had killed him to prevent him from sharing what he saw. And Charlotte said, quote, we will not stop this investigation no matter what, until it

is finished. We owe it to our son and we owe it to our children. We owe it to ourselves and we owe it to the other people's children out there as well. But the sheriff, Lawrence Lumpkin, was still apparently convinced that this was just a case of Norman's parents struggling to come to terms with their grief and looking for anything that would point to it not being a suicide. On November 21, 1990, an episode of Unsolved Mysteries aired that began with Norman's case, and it featured both of his parents still pleading for answers in the mystery of

their son's death that it happened the year before. It also featured interviews with Lawrence, who stuck with his original assessment, and said that the family was grasping at straws. However, some critics of the investigation actually believe Lawrence himself was involved. The theories posed on the Unsolved Mysteries website page about this case are absolutely wild, so let's get into some of those now. And also I just want to say now that you know that people suspect the sheriff, you know, this could be why this guy was like, just stop pursuing this. Stop pursuing this. Stop pursuing this.

So many gave credence to the drug theory, of course. But one poster said, quote, everyone knows the truth of this story. It had to do with cocaine, the sheriff, the Dixie Mafia, and some locals. Dog fights, drugs, and lawsuits. That was Pearl River County. Now, many locals are at least those who identified as locals have posted on the Unsolved Mysteries forum

as well as on a Facebook page called Unsolved Crimes in Mississippi, that the area has struggled with a drug crisis for a long time. The issue was even discussed in a town meeting held in Pickaheun, Mississippi, a town only about 15 minutes away from where Norman lived with his family, that was also located in Pearl River County. The meeting held on August 1, 1989, so just three weeks before Norman died, suggested imposing a six-month curfew of 11pm to 7am for anyone under the age of 17. That's pretty serious. Yeah, it is. So obviously, you've a big enough problem to want to implement

a curfew here. So the notes of the meeting red quote, a special designated area is an area within the city of Pika-Yun, Mississippi, in which there exists the presence of special, extensuating circumstances such as excessive looting or vandalism, high crime rates, a high drug or alcohol arrest rate, or a number of crimes committed by minors, necessitating hours of curfew that are most strict in character than those warranted in the areas of PIKI YUNA.

So members and attendants voted to approve the measure, quote, after long discussions and careful consideration of each section of a curfew ordinance designed to give the police department a better control over specific troubled areas. And Lawrence Lumpkin had even been an attendance at this meeting. Now Pearl River County apparently contained a large marijuana crop in or near town, which many accused Lawrence with assisting to distribute. Let's address the possibility of involvement from the Dixie Mafia. Now the gang has origins dating back to the end of the Civil War

and was based out of Baloxima Cicipe, which is about an hour from the Ladners. They were known for everything from murder, to arson, to extortion, and their motto was, quote, thou shall not snitch to the cops. But ironically, there were law enforcement officers known to be involved in the Diximofia. Lawrence was not one of them, but that doesn't mean that their alliance is not a possibility. Many members were reportedly able to operate and continue to commit crimes from inside prison, even calling out hits on people. According to some sources, they are still active,

but have not their activity back to white collar crimes. And quite a few people in the online forums accused Lawrence Lumpkin himself. Lawrence Lumpy. Oh my God. Lawrence Lumpy Lumpkin. I guess you could call him that, of killing Norman. Like people in this form think that he's the one who killed Norman personally to cover for the fact that he was involved in the drug trade operation assisted by the Dixie Mafia.

Now we're not claiming that, we're not saying that's true. That's just what people are saying. Yeah, these are just theories and speculation. Yes. So one post wrote quote, Lawrence Lumpkin did it 100% facts. He had the corner in his back pocket. He had judge Pritchard and U-Banks in his back pocket and he had the deputies. Well, some of deputies. And this is still part of the quote. It says, as I got my info from one before he passed on, Lawrence ran drugs in and out of the jailhouse

in Poplarville behind the hospital. For context, Poplarville is another rural town in Pearl River County, 25 miles or 40 kilometers from Caesar. And then it continues, his deputy who had red hair and a scar on his face knows the deal, but he is tight-lipped. And even since Lawrence died, he is still not going to say as to not incriminate himself. It's really heartbreaking.

Lawrence will never get what he should have had coming to him, but the family should be able to rest once this is proven." Now another poster on the Unsolved Mysteries forum had a personal connection with the deceased himself. A man calling himself Gavin wrote, "...Look, Norman's my uncle. I have asked the same questions y'all have asked too, and I have been told that he was murdered by my Mima, aka Norman's mom, and I I've been told that he was murdered by my Mima,

aka Norman's mom. And I've also been told that it was an accidental misfire by my mom, aka Norman's little sister. But however, he was loved so much by everyone, and I love him too. Even though I never met him, he's still family. But I do believe that he was murdered because I know those woods by the back of my hand too. And do believe that he was murdered because I know those woods by the back of my hand too, and I believe that he was murdered because there's a huge open field that's at least 20 acres for a drug shipment to come in. If no hunter's going, there's another high possibility because there's good game out there.

Now drug dealers could have killed him for no eyewitnesses, or he was believed to be a deer or coyote or bobcat, and then a have killed him for no eyewitnesses, or he was believed to be a deer or coyote or bobcat, and then a hunter killed him, etc. So there's my story and belief on the mysterious death of Norman Ladner. There didn't seem to be any indication that a member of his family had killed him accidentally or on purpose, or that the whole investigation had been a cover-up by the family, but it definitely posed an interesting theory and was clearly one of many rumors circulating the small town.

But it can't be confirmed that this person is actually a family member and not just somebody trying to stir rumors. I just don't understand why this person would say that my mom... Like, why would you admit to that A, my mom accidentally shot him and my grandma covered it up or my mom. No, I mean, this is just complete bullshit. Yeah, and I feel like also, there's no way that his parents would push

so hard for justice if they were trying to cover up something themselves. They'd be like, oh yeah, so sad he killed himself. That's what happened. Yeah, yeah, and a story. Yeah, they would not be pushing for an investigation if they were the ones hiding something. Yeah. This makes no sense. I don't know who this person is, but it's weird. I mean, unfortunately, anybody can really

say anything that they want on the internet, especially anonymously. And, uh, yeah, I just I think this is true bullshit. It just doesn't make sense. So now a little bit more about Pearl River County Sheriff Lawrence Lumpkin. When Lawrence was elected sheriff, he won just over half of the popular vote, but this may have been a product of nepotism, as his father was the president of the board of supervisors for Pearl River County at the time.

But in 1991, so a couple years after Norman was killed, or Norman died, he was ousted by Challenger Sheriff Lawrence holiday. In November of 1992, so just over three years after Norman's death, Lawrence Lumpkin and 36 other people were arrested for their participation in a dog fighting ring in pearl river county okay so lorrence is a piece of shit i don't feel bad about calling him lumpy loren lumpy loren so no yeah don't feel bad at all i mean all i mean this guy is

literally like a proven to be a part of a crime ring of sorts so you know what does that tell us about other things that he possibly could have done so the summer after normans death in July of 1990, there was a fire at Lawrence's residence, though there were no deaths or injuries reported, and the circumstances of how the fire broke out are unclear. Now, some around town believe that this was his way

of disposing of evidence, either related to Norman's case, or other kind of sketchy dealings that he was involved in. And this is probably completely unrelated, but it found it really strange that everyone in his family died at a fairly young age. So Lawrence's wife Joyce died in 1981 at 32. His son Paul died in 2009 at 40 and Lawrence himself died in 2007 at 58. I don't know, I just thought that was kind of weird. So more than half of the comments on the online forums point to corruption within law enforcement, drug involvement, Dixie Mafia involvement, or all three.

And yet another commenter who claimed to have personalized to the community said, quote, bunk fields, meaning the pot was not cared for. Meanwhile as the police were burning those bunk fields, the real fields were being harvested. If you're from this area, then you may remember a fish house on Rock Ranch Road. It was also several different churches. After the harvest was completed, Lumpkin would meet up with the planter who is now dead too and be paid off. The money was always in a brown paper bag and small bills.

I know this because those sorry people had my brother make the payments. So there's just a lot of claims and that's why I said it was weird that if you're it feels weird that he his wife and his son all died pretty young because if he was involved in this, I don't know how these people died, but it just makes me wonder if it could have been connected to his kind of illegal doings. Yeah, it could have been. I mean, it's definitely possible, but- There's just a lot of speculation here. Yeah, there is, but the fact that a lot of people are bringing this up and saying this makes me more inclined to want to look into it And these are a lot of people who like you said are claiming at least to be Locals who know of this guy and have heard things on the streets

So Norman's case is drawn many comparisons to the suspicious deaths of 16 year old Don Henry and 17-old Kevin Ives in the neighboring state of Arkansas. In the early morning hours of August 23, 1987, Don and Kevin were out night hunting before heading back to Don's house to spend the night. A few hours after they had set out, the boys were hit by a 6,000-ton cargo train. The conductor said that he noticed them lying motionless on the tracks with a tarp covering the lower portion of their bodies, but that the horn wasn't startling them and the emergency break couldn't activate quickly enough to stop before hitting them. It seemed like an accident, especially when a toxicology report revealed that they had smoked as many as 20 marijuana cigarettes or joints

I don't know Marijuana cigarette Marijuana cigarettes The sound's so 1920s and of course not to poke fun because these boys are deceased now But also that's a lot like I don't know my dad is a huge stoner and he doesn't even smoke 20 joints in a day You know what I mean? That's like not a thing. Yeah, especially just like in one sitting.

Do people do that? I smoke half a joint and I'm good. Yeah, I don't know. That just seems like... That's just a lot. That's why this is so suspicious as you're saying. Sorry, continue. So the physical evidence here was just not adding up to an accident.

The responding EMT claimed that their blood was dark and that their skin was colorless, indicating that they had already been dead when they had been placed on the tracks. As with Norman's case, the families of the boys were critical of the investigation, calling it sloppy and fearing corruption or a cover-up from within the police department. Strangely, the hospital that took in their bodies and performed the autopsy had no record of them being there. With pressure from the families and the public, the investigation was reopened and the deaths were officially ruled homicides, but no murderer has ever been identified One year after the deaths of dawn in Kevin their story was also featured on unsolved mysteries

In it the lawyer for the boys alleged that they witnessed something that they were not supposed to see and that it involved Illegal drugs. We've gotten so many recommendations, I think, over the years to cover this. A lot of people call it the boys on the tracks. Yeah, just. Yeah, and so if you guys wanted to cover this, we are definitely interested. So let us know. I just know that it's kind of a more well-known case

in some ways, but I'm sure a lot of you guys it's still still new. So one strange circumstance in Norman's case that was not addressed by Pearl River County police is that his wallet had been found with his body, but the cash and his ID were missing. So obviously that's weird, but get this. His ID turned up in New York City months later. Okay, that's that's one detail of this case that I think is the most bizarre.

How is not New York City is not close. Yeah, and he doesn't appear that he had ever been there or whatever, like how the fuck did his ID get to New York? No idea, it's so weird. And in 1991, a second episode of Unsolved Mysteries aired, lots of Unsolved Mysteries here, updating the audience with the information about Norman's missing wallet. And again, posing the theory that Norman's parents said that they were now convinced of,

that illegal drug trade was to blame, and that Norman had simply gotten caught in the crossfire. And the episode concluded with Norman's senior saying saying sadly, quote, it's a great deal of strain knowing that he was murdered and nothing has been done to bring his murderers to justice. Charlotte and Norman Senior later divorced, and Norman Ladner Senior died in 2003 at the age of 66, and is buried next to his son in Turtle Skin Cemetery in Santa Rosa in Mississippi, which is just 20 minutes

away from the Ladner family farm. Norman Siblings are now grown and Charlotte has kept herself busy, penning a column for Louisiana newspaper with money-saving tips that she even wound up turning into a book called Homemade Products with Brand Name Quality. His mom and siblings are still waiting for answers and wondering what really happened in their own backyard that summer evening. Norman's case has never been reopened. Thank you so much everybody for listening to this episode of Going West. Yes, thank you guys so much for listening to this episode and on Friday we'll have an all new case for you guys to dive into.

And then it is Thanksgiving. We're going to have episodes come out as usual next week. We're not taking any days off. That goes for the dark parts. We're having have episodes come out as usual next week, we're not taking any days off. That goes for the dark parts, we're having an episode come out on Thanksgiving Day. We have a fun one coming this Thursday. Just a reminder for everybody to check out the dark parts. I know a lot of you guys tuned in last Tuesday for the Amityville Murders episode. Just a reminder to check out the Amityville Hauntings that came out on the dark parts

our other show hosted by Heath and I. Yeah, I mean, there's been a lot of really good feedback from you guys about that show. And obviously, thank you for supporting Going West. We love you guys so much, and we just really appreciate all the support, all the listens, people sharing the show, and also leaving us nice reviews. It is so wonderful. We love you guys so much. Hope you have a great week, great weekend, great holiday,

and we'll see you on Friday. All right, guys, so for everybody out there in the world, don't be a stranger. 1.5% 1.5% 1.5% 1.5% 1.5% 1.5% 1.5% 1.5%

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