Going West: True Crime - Teresa Halbach // 248

Starting point is 00:00:00 What is going on True Crime fans? I'm your host Teez. And I'm your host Daphne. And you're listening to Going West. Oh man, today's case is gonna be a doozy. It's gonna be a long one. This case has sat, I think, with all of us ever since we all watched making a murderer about seven years ago, but there is a lot more to the story and more has come out since the series aired. So we're here to finally cover the case, though. Of course, if you haven't seen it, do so. Making a murderer on Netflix, there are so many extended details in that show that we

Starting point is 00:00:45 couldn't get to. Some things that we had to summarize in order to fit other details that were not in the show, but we tried to pack as much in as possible, and this is definitely going to be the longest going west episode ever. Yes, so many details. That's come a little scared. Yeah, so let's not waste any more time. Let's just get into this one.

Starting point is 00:01:02 All right, guys, this is episode 248 of Going West, so let's not waste any more time. Let's just get into this one. All right guys. This is episode 248 of going west So let's get into it On Halloween Day in 2005, a 25-year-old photographer headed to a Wisconsin salvage yard and was never seen again. When her car was found a few days later on the same property, a man was arrested for her murder. But did he do it? With theories of the man being framed and other persons of interest sneaking into the story, many are left wondering if police have the right man behind bars.

Starting point is 00:02:14 This is the story of Teresa Hallbach was born on March 22, 1980 in Cucana, Wisconsin. She was the third child of parents Karen and Richard, joining older brothers Timothy and Mike. But when Teresa was just eight years old, the family lost their patriarch. Teresa's father Richard, very suddenly, and actually while on vacation in Florida. Now, there's nothing in his obituary or in news articles about his cause of death,

Starting point is 00:02:56 but one Reddit thread devoted to information about Teresa's family claims that it was an unexpected heart attack. And Richard was just 31 years old at the time, so very, very young. Oh my gosh, yeah, I'm 34, that scares me. Yeah, so, so sad. So Teresa's mom Karen did remarry and Teresa gained a stepfather named Thomas, as well

Starting point is 00:03:17 as two little sisters Katie and Kelly. Teresa spent her childhood on a dairy farm in the small town of Hilbert, which is about a 40-minute drive southwest of Green Bay, Wisconsin. The whole family was very close, but Teresa was remembered as especially close with her younger sisters. Her family described her as confident to always the life of the party, and she could make absolutely anybody smile. She was athletic, playing competitive basketball

Starting point is 00:03:46 in middle school and running cross-country track, but also very artsy and participated in multiple school musicals. Even as an adult, her love of the stage continued as she frequently went out to sing karaoke and she's remembered as having a great singing voice. And I wonder what her karaoke song was. In case anybody's wondering, Heath is Bohemian Rhapsody, and he kills it every time. I do, I do crush that song.

Starting point is 00:04:10 It's always great. So Teresa graduated from Hilbert High School in 1998, and went on to attend the University of Wisconsin in nearby Green Bay. Indulging her artistic side, she decided to pursue photography and also worked for the school's newspaper, I said photography, um, photography.

Starting point is 00:04:30 Teresa then graduated summa cum laude with a degree in photography in 2002. When she was just 21 years old and still in school, she started working for a professional photography studio called Pierce Photography under its owner and namesake Tom Pears. She also did children's photo shoots for Pierce Photography, which was great for her because she loved kids, and she wanted to be a mom one day. Eventually Teresa broke out on her own and fulfilled her dream of opening her very own studio, Photography by Teresa, shooting on her Canon Power Shot A310 digital camera. She even rented a space in the same building in which she worked with Tom.

Starting point is 00:05:13 And although they ran separate businesses with different clients in their respective studios, they would often work together, share resources, and just kind of help each other out. Tom remembers Teresa being an extremely talented photographer and a dedicated business owner. And outside of photography by Teresa, she also took photos for the used car digest auto trader. In her spare time, Teresa coached her sister's seventh grade volleyball team.

Starting point is 00:05:40 She also loved to travel, and according to her obituary, had enjoyed visits to Spain, New Zealand, Australia, Mexico, and all over the United States, and she was looking forward to crossing more places off her bucket list. She loved exploring the outdoors and had learned to scuba dive while in Australia. She also liked to camp and made frequent trips to Lake Winnebago, just south of Cacana, where she was born. At one time, she had a serious boyfriend who were going to talk about quite a bit in this episode, maybe not quite a bit, but here and there, he was a fellow Hilbert high alumni named Ryan Hiligus.

Starting point is 00:06:17 They dated for about five years, but had gone their separate ways in 2001, and Teresa seemed to be focusing on her work. For reference, remember, 2001 that's why she was still in college and four years before she went missing. But more than anything, Teresa cherished the time she spent with her family and friends. At the time of her disappearance, she had just moved back to Hilbert to be closer to her family and especially her little sisters. Her rent in Green Bay had recently gone up and her mom convinced her to move home to save

Starting point is 00:06:48 a little money. The family had a large piece of property where their farm sat, and aside from the mainhouse where her parents and her sisters resided, there was a spare farmhouse that Theresa could have all to herself. And she actually split this place with a roommate named Scott Blodorn, making the rent that she paid to her family even cheaper. They had been living together for about eight months when Teresa went missing, and by all accounts, there were great roommates. Scott, who was also a good friend of Teresa's ex-boyfriend

Starting point is 00:07:19 Ryan, claimed that there was nothing romantic or physical between the two of them, and that he and Teresa were just good friends nothing more. But some speculate that there was some romantic history there, though this has never been confirmed. And Scott recalled being close with her family as well, so he was, you know, he was very much in her life. He was in the mix.

Starting point is 00:07:42 So the whole box siblings would often come by to have Sunday night dinners altogether, and Teresa frequently headed over to the main farmhouse to visit with her family and watch TV with her sisters. In a video diary three years prior to her death, Teresa made an oddly prophetic statement about her life and retrospect. She said, quote, Let's say I died tomorrow. I don't think I will. I think I have a lot more to do I just want people I love to know that when I die that I was happy That I'm happy with what I did in my life. I love knowing that I like who I am. I love taking pictures I love holding a camera in my hand. I love kids. I love babies. I don't hate anyone. I love a lot of people. I feel loved. So obviously things mostly seem to be going well for Teresa, but in the weeks leading up to Teresa's disappearance,

Starting point is 00:08:34 particularly between October 1st and 7th, her former boss and current friend and collaborator Tom Pierce remembered her receiving some suspicious phone calls. She had apparently looked at her phone one day and said, quote, oh not him again, but told Tom that it was nothing to worry about. On the evening of Sunday, October 30, 2005, the family gathered at the farm to celebrate Teresa's grandfather's birthday. She spent the evening watching TV with her sisters and left around 10 pm. But that weekend, she attended a Halloween party in Green Bay and was planning on dressing up as a cowgirl for a party that she was attending

Starting point is 00:09:15 on Halloween night. But on the afternoon of the following day, so Halloween the day where she's later, supposed to dress as that cowgirl, of 2005, Teresa was due at a local salvage yard to photograph a used car for auto trader. She was heading to Avery's Auto Salvage, a salvage yard and tow company that also sells car parts and used vehicles, located in two rivers with Conson, this is about 40 minutes east of where Teresa lived. Avery's Auto Salvage or Avery's salvage yard had been owned and operated by the Avery family,

Starting point is 00:09:50 Dolores and Allen Avery and their children, Barb, Stephen, Chuck and Earl for years. The property located at 12930 Avery Road into Rivers host four residents for the family, including Chuck Avary, Steven Avary, Barb and their parents Alan and Dolores, as well as multiple other structures. Teresa had taken photos of cars for them on five other occasions that year. June 20th, August 22nd, August 29th, September 19th, and most recently, October 10th. So she was pretty familiar with the property and the people that lived there. Yeah, she had been out there many, many times. One auto trader employee who worked with Teresa remembered her saying that Steven Avery,

Starting point is 00:10:38 the owner's son who lived on the salvage yard in a red trailer, had one's answer the door in a towel, which Teresa found creepy. At 11.43am on Monday, October 31, Teresa called and left a voicemail announcing when she would arrive to take the pictures. She said in this voicemail, quote, Hello, this is Teresa with Auto Trader Magazine. I'm a photographer and I'm just giving you a call to let you know that I could come out there today

Starting point is 00:11:06 in afternoon. It would probably be around two o'clock or even a little later. But if you could please give me a call back and let me know if that will work for you because I don't have your address or anything so I can't stop by without getting the call back from you. Again, it's Teresa, thank you.

Starting point is 00:11:23 So it's interesting that she said this because she had been there multiple times, so maybe she just didn't know how to get there by heart because it's not like she went there multiple days in a row all the time, like she was there sporadically. Sure. But, or I will say this as well, is that, as I'm actually actually, the name is under Barb Janda, so maybe she didn't realize at the time that it was at Avery Salvage. So she left her phone number in the call as well or in the voicemail as well and she hung up.

Starting point is 00:11:50 So that afternoon, she drove her Toyota RAV4 to Avery's auto-Salvage to meet Barb Janda, who is Steven Avery's sister, whose name the appointment was listed under, and she was never seen again after this. Now, we're going to be talking about Steven Avery a lot in this episode, so while we mentioned this note that Barb made the appointment, it was actually Steven who made it but under his sister Barb's name. That's very interesting, I don't know why, I mean if they all kind of co-own this company, I don't know why he would make it under Barb's name.

Starting point is 00:12:22 Well many people believe that, maybe he was trying to like lure Theresa to the house this way, especially since Steven specifically requested, quote, that same girl who was here last time, aka Theresa. Yeah. And he wanted her specifically to photograph the car. While others point out that since the car was actually barbs car, that is the reason that he likely used barbs name for the appointment.

Starting point is 00:12:44 But this is really up for debate. So it's really unclear. barbs car. That is the reason that he likely used barbs name for the appointment, but this is really up for debate. So it's really unclear. And by the way, Barb did not arrive home until about 5pm that evening. So she wasn't even there when Teresa photographed the vehicle. So because Teresa didn't stop in to see her family every day, they didn't really think much of it when they didn't see her the following day or the day after that. But on November 3rd, 2005, after confirming that a roommate Scott had also not seen her in a few days, her concerned family reported her missing. Scott said it was unlike Teresa to go home with someone that she had just met, even if

Starting point is 00:13:22 she had just met someone that she was interested in at the party that she said she was going to on the evening of Halloween. So, the small community quickly rallied together to help one of their own. Teresa's ex-boyfriend Ryan Hilagas said, quote, people want to do nothing but help. Ryan himself was central to the search efforts, organizing grassroots searches led by friends, family and community members. He was out aiding the police and spearheading search parties for days straight, following her missing persons report, scarcely taking a break to sleep or eat, and even staying at Teresa's home so that he could use that as his home base. There were multiple searches going on for Teresa between her family and friends, volunteers, and the local police.

Starting point is 00:14:10 Of course, considering the last known place Teresa had been was Avery Salvage, Sargent and Drew Colborn headed over there and questioned Steven Avery about the appointment that Avery Salvage had with her the day she went missing, so a few days earlier. Steven said that he didn't know where she was, and that she had only been over to take photos of Barb's car for a few minutes and then left, which makes sense considering we know it's a very quick job. Yeah, all you gotta do is take a photo

Starting point is 00:14:36 and then you're done. Right, you're just, you know, a few to put in the magazine, that's it, super quick job, but still, they wanted to make sure that she wasn't on their vast property. So the following day on November 4, 2005, four days after Teresa went missing and one day after she was reported missing, Lieutenant James Link and Detective Dave Rhymaker from

Starting point is 00:14:59 the Manitouac County Sheriff's Department went back to Avery Salvidge and asked Steven if they could search his trailer, and he said that they could. They let him or he let them in, and they searched it. But both reported that they did not find Teresa nor anything overtly suspicious, so they left. Then the following day, a couple people, a woman named Pamela and her daughter Nicole, from Teresa's family search party headed to Avery's salvage to ask for permission to search it. Seemingly having nothing to hide, the Avery's granted permission and they began their search.

Starting point is 00:15:35 Now, to explain the property a little bit better, like Daphne said, it's 40 acres, so it's massive but also holds 3,000 cars, which is something that the searchers were looking for, which could have proven to be a huge task. However, in just 30 minutes, Pamela Sturm, who is the second cousin of Teresa, called the police when she came upon what she thought was Teresa's vehicle. And now here's the audio clip from that call. Hi, this is Sheriff Oggle. Oh, Sheriff Oggle. Hi, this is Pam Serm. I'm on the first bird's reach to all of us. And we found a brand four.

Starting point is 00:16:14 You did? It's a blue screen. It's more blue than green. We just wanted to know if you have to pin number for that vehicle. Yes, we do. We do have a pin number. It is all covered up. It is all covered up. It's all covered up.

Starting point is 00:16:26 Not all covers, but it's got a lot of stuff on it. Branches and glasses. OK, branches over it. Yeah. Where's the VIN number on something like this? The VIN number would probably be on the windshield, or underneath the bison. On the dash, driver's side.

Starting point is 00:16:44 Yes, driver's side. Yeah, driver's body next. Looks through the front window. Through the front window. I'll give you an investigative wigger. He's got the phone. Are they been number here? Okay. Hi.

Starting point is 00:16:57 How are you looking? I had it right now. Yeah, you know, we can't find a VIN number. What color is it? It is blue screen. It looks like a newer one? Yes, it's the 99 to 2000. Is there any?

Starting point is 00:17:11 More of a blue screen though. That's why we don't want to put, you know. Is there any lights in place on it? No, no. No, no, no, no. You'll place on it, but it's a little covered up. It's weird. It's covered up.

Starting point is 00:17:21 Okay, some of this. Can you get to the front of the car? Yeah, I will. We got to touch the car. Yeah. Stay on the outside of the car. Go over to the front on the driver's side. Yeah, the first, last four digits.

Starting point is 00:17:34 Three, zero, four, four. Okay, hold on, I got a flana here again. Okay, can you go even more in? I don't know, can you look at any other numbers? Three, zero, three, five, four, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five in? I don't know, can you look at any other number? P 0, B 5 5 6 7 A 1 or a T Okay, where are you? 3 0, is that the number?

Starting point is 00:18:00 Where are you? No, you got to tell me if this is the car. Okay, stop, I can't tell you anything. Where are you? I'm at avery selvage. Okay, are you? No, you've got to tell me if this is the car. OK, stop. I can't tell you anything. Where are you? I'm at Avery, Selved. OK, are you on their property? Yes, I am. A weekday permission? I'm over to ask.

Starting point is 00:18:11 Yes, sir. Yes, sir. OK. It's much easier to understand the size of the property and where everything is in this case by looking at a map. And we did post a few of those on our social media. So if you want to go check those out, please do. But basically, Teresa's car was found up on a road on the Avery property in a line of

Starting point is 00:18:30 cars, meaning that it wasn't in the field of cars like almost all of the 3,000 other vehicles were. So it was amongst maybe 30 to 40 cars in a single file line that can be accessed seemingly pretty easily from the main road because it borders the property and the line of cars is on a dirt road on the property that does connect to Avery Road, which connects to Main Street, and that's where Avery Salbage starts at. And I know that sounds super confusing, but basically picture like a big square. In the middle of the square, there is a massive display of vehicles,

Starting point is 00:19:09 like thousands of cars. Yeah, like we said, 3,000 vehicles. And then above those are all their trailers and houses. But then if you go to the very bottom of the square that we're talking about, there's a line that connects and goes up to where the road is. It is on the border of the property. So again, it would be helpful probably to look at a map, but it doesn't matter that much.

Starting point is 00:19:31 It just matters that it's not like in the middle of all the other cars. It is on a separate road. And the fact that she found that so easily and decided to look up on that ridge instead of looking amongst the thousands of vehicles. It's pretty interesting. Well, I mean, I wonder if, because a lot of times in salvage yards like that, they'll have cars that are stacked on top of each other. You know, obviously this is 40 acres, but I'm assuming maybe they just decided to start at the edges of the property and then maybe work their way in, and that's how they were able to find it

Starting point is 00:20:03 so quickly. Possibly. I mean, she came through and they did search some other cars in a line before Pamela says that she looked up and she just decided, oh, I'm going to look on that ridge and she had to walk up to the ridge to look at it. And maybe she wanted to get a better view of the Salva Jard as well. I don't know, but she found it very quickly.

Starting point is 00:20:22 And Teresa's car was found four days after she went missing, so many people point out that if Steven or one of the Avery's had been responsible for Teresa's disappearance or murder, they surely would have dismantled or even stripped the vehicle or crushed it with the property's crusher. And instead of just removing her license plates, like knowing that police would come searching the property, like it's kind of surprising that they would just hide it with some branches, which is really suspicious that there was like branches

Starting point is 00:20:52 and other stuff covering the car, and no other car looked like that, but it seems like a really poor job if you're trying to actually hide a vehicle. Yeah, I mean, it seems like they maybe were cocky about the situation and like, well, we'll just kind of hide it, maybe in plain sight.

Starting point is 00:21:07 It's in the corner, it's covered by some trees, we took the license plate off, nobody's gonna really, you know, no, it's just a RAV4. Right, I mean, of course, it's possible that they thought removing the place like you're saying could be enough, but it does just seem like a big oversight. And then also to cover it up with the branches,

Starting point is 00:21:24 like I said, it just seems like a really odd thing to do. Although no offense intended, many question Stevens intelligence in general. So it's possible that if he did do this, that he just thought that was enough, but that's why a lot of people are suspicious like surely he would have gone to further lengths if he did hide it here. But we're going to get more into that later So either way with this discovery Please begin an extensive eight-day search of Avery salvage yard in which naturally the Averys were not allowed to stay there So they stayed at a cabin and on Thursday November 9th

Starting point is 00:22:00 2005 after nearly a week of searching for Teresa Human remains believed to be that of an adult woman were found on the property in multiple burn piles in different areas of the property. Investigators collected what they described as charred bones and teeth for DNA testing, and while they waited for results, they continued to conduct a thorough search of the area. What they found was damning. Teresa's car battery, which was detached from the car, and Steven's non-blood DNA,

Starting point is 00:22:35 i.e. sweat or saliva, etc., was found on the hoodlatch of her vehicle. A, quote, significant amount of Teresa's blood was found in her vehicle as well. In the rear cargo area and near the ignition, intercar keys were found in Stephen Avery's bedroom. Also found in his bedroom were leg cuffs, handcuffs, and a gun. And by the way, gun possession is illegal for felons, which he is as we will explain. Her cell phone and her license plates to her car were also recovered on the property. And in the bathroom in front of the washer and dryer, more of her blood was reportedly

Starting point is 00:23:15 found. But before we dig into the investigation, let's talk a little bit more about Stephen Avery's criminal and present history to kind of, you know, paint the scene a little better. So between 1979 and 1980, he had a few traffic charges, including reckless driving. In November of 1980, he broke into a bar and stole two cases of beer, two sandwiches, a toolbox, and $14.00 in quarters. He was convicted of two felony burglary charges and served 10 months in jail. On September 2, 1982, while at a bonfire with some friends, this involves animal cruelty,

Starting point is 00:23:55 so please skip 5-10 seconds if you don't want to hear this brief situation involving a cat. So, if you have skipped, sorry, I want to give a second. So, if you have a skip, sorry, I want to give a second. So, I'm Steven. Very sadly, this is so disgusting. He poured gasoline on a cat and threw it into a fire, and he and his friends watched the cat die. So, absolutely disgusting, and he was luckily charged with cruelty to animals, and he served nine months in jail.

Starting point is 00:24:22 His response to these charges were, quote, I was young and stupid and hanging out with the wrong people. Obviously, that does not mean that you can abuse and murder animals. So in January of 1985, he was involved in a road rage incident in which he ran his female cousin off the road before getting out of the car and pulling a gun on her. And he only backed down when he saw that she had her infant in the car with her. According to Steven, his cousin had been spreading a rumor about him, a rumor that he claimed was untrue, and the rumor was that he had been masturbating in his front lawn.

Starting point is 00:24:58 So this is apparently why he pulled a gun on her. He also said that the gun he was carrying was not loaded and that he was just trying to dissuade her from spreading defamatory stories about him in their community. And for this, he was convicted of endadering safety and a felony count of possession of a firearm and he was later sentenced to six years in prison. But while he was awaiting trial for this charge, a much more serious incident found its way onto his record. So we're gonna get into this charge and explain what happened over the years after it,

Starting point is 00:25:31 and then we'll get back to Teresa. So bear with us because it's all relevant. On July 29, 1985, so 20 years before Teresa's murder, a 36 year old Manitouac woman was beaten and raped in broad daylight while out for a jog along Lake Michigan one sunny afternoon. Now based on the physical description that she gave and the criminal records of local offenders, police pulled nine photos of men that they believed had the potential to be involved. The victim, Penny Bernstin, identified Steven Avery out of the lineup immediately, and

Starting point is 00:26:09 Steven was arrested the following day. Now at the trial that happened in December, Steven's legal team presented 16 people to corroborate his alibi that he had been at the store with his family at the time of the attack. He claimed that he, accompanied by his wife and their five children, were buying paint at a store in Green Bay, Wisconsin at the time. Confirmed by the checkout clerk of the store and Stephen's receipt, he had paid for his items at 5.13 pm on the evening of July 29th. Exactly one hour and 23 minutes

Starting point is 00:26:43 after Penny claimed the attack took place. Penny estimated that the attack lasted about 15 minutes, which meant that Steven would have only had an hour and eight minutes to leave Penny in the wooded area where the attack took place, drive home to retrieve his family, and then drive his family from their home to the store in Green Bay, over 40 miles or 64 kilometers away, so over 45 minutes away. The defense team said that this simply wasn't plausible, but the judge and jury sided with the prosecution.

Starting point is 00:27:16 And on December 14, 1985, Steven Avery was convicted of the assault of Penny Bernstein and sentenced to 32 years in prison. Now, Steven and his legal team attempted to appeal the conviction in both 1987 and 1996, but his appeals were denied both times. But in 1995, a detective in a neighboring county contacted the Manitouac County jail where Steven was being held, and claimed that an inmate in his county had bragged about putting another man away for an assault that he himself had committed and that the description matched the case of Penny Bernstins.

Starting point is 00:27:56 According to the account of the man calling in the tip, the sheriff told him, quote, we already have the right guy. Don't concern yourself with it. But eight years later in 2003, after serving 18 years in prison, new evidence presented itself. Testing was performed on the DNA from the attack on Penny, which wasn't available at the time of the crime. A shock to law enforcement, the samples taken from Penny and Steven did

Starting point is 00:28:26 not match. Instead, they identified someone who had not been tried, a man named Gregory Allen, who liked Steven, had possessed a prior criminal record. In both 1993 and 1995, so while Steven was in prison years after the attack on Penny, Gregory committed violent sexual assaults while attacking his victim with a knife. Gregory Allen and Stephen Avery actually bore a striking resemblance, and Gregory had even committed a similar assault on the same beach two years prior to the attack on Penny. But somehow, although he was under police supervision at the time of Penny's assault due to his history of violence against women, Gregory had not been considered a suspect in her case

Starting point is 00:29:16 and was not included in the phonoline up shown to Penny. Most of you are probably familiar with Stephen Avery as the focus of Netflix's Making a Murderer, which claims that he's innocent of the murder of Theresa Hallbach. The Dock you series premiered in 2015 and was viewed by almost 20 million households in its first month alone. Did you watch it at the time? I did, yeah, I watched it right when it came out. Yeah, me too.

Starting point is 00:29:42 So the series was so popular that in 2018 Netflix released a second season and on June 14, 2023 they're set to release a third season. So get ready for that in 8 months from when this episode is released. It was all a harrowing experience for Penny to say the least. In an interview with the Marshall project, she said quote, The day I learned of the exoneration was worse than the day that I was assaulted. I really fought back when my attacker grabbed me. I scratched him, I kicked him, and I did not go gently.

Starting point is 00:30:16 After the DNA results came back, I just felt powerless. I can't unring this bell. I can't give Steve back the years that he's lost." In 2004, Steven and Penny finally met face-to-face, and she remembers him being quiet and polite. They hugged and she apologized profusely for what had happened, though she was, of course, just trying to put the bad man who attacked her behind bars, not wrongfully identifying innocent man. She remembers him saying, quote, it's okay, Penny, it's over. On September 11, 2003, Stephen Avery was released from prison and cleared of all charges relating to Penny's assault.

Starting point is 00:30:58 That day, he told reporters, quote, I don't blame the victim, what happened to her was horrible. It's the cops that set me up. But while DNA evidence may have cleared him of suspicion for the 1985 attack on Penny Bernstin, that doesn't necessarily mean that he was innocent of killing Teresa Hallbuck. So let's get back to Teresa. Let's first talk about the keys being found in Steven's room for a moment. So they were found on the fourth day of searching

Starting point is 00:31:26 the Avery property inside Stephen's room in his trailer. They were apparently on the floor under a slipper and next to a cabinet. But two very suspicious figures in this case, if you ask me, who many believe have both the motive and ability to frame Stephen, aka Lieutenant Link and Sergeant Colborn, had already searched Stephen's room as well as the cabinet, and they didn't find this key.

Starting point is 00:31:52 I remember that. I remember that it wasn't there prior when they first searched it, but then all of a sudden it was there on the second search. Yeah, I know. I mean, they actually searched his trailer seven times, and this was the fourth day of the search so they had been in there so many times and it had not been in there before like they search this area they said it's not there actually

Starting point is 00:32:12 deputy daniel kucharsky said that lieutenant length was the one who found it like pointing to the floor and saying oh there's a key there and deputy daniel kucharski even stated in court that the key was not there the first time he searched that room. Like he is sure that it wasn't there before Lieutenant Link pointed it out. So obviously that's very suspicious.

Starting point is 00:32:35 Yeah, like he's basically insinuating that it was planted there. I want to explain the key to a lot of people, like internet sleuths, will look at this one photo of Teresa where she's holding her keys. It's really hard to see. I didn't even know that was her keys in her hand, but people point out that, oh, you can see that there's multiple keys on her key loop.

Starting point is 00:32:55 But what was found in Steven's room, we posted the photo, is just a single car key on, like, you know those lanyards that you put around your neck. Yeah. And some of them on clip. So this was like, I don't know, maybe like two to three inches of lanyard with one of those like plastic black clips that should clip into the rest of the lanyard. The lanyard was found in her car, the rest of it.

Starting point is 00:33:19 But there were no other keys attached to it. It was just the single car key. Very interesting. So many people are like, oh, was this her spare? And she has actual keys somewhere else. It's unclear. But a lot of people then say, oh, did they have the key made? And this wasn't actually her car key.

Starting point is 00:33:35 Like, people go crazy with those theories. But all we know is what Deputy Daniel Kutarski is saying that it was not there before when they searched it. So then how did it get there if the Averys weren't allowed on the property? Kutursky is saying that it was not there before when they searched it. So then how did it get there if the Avery's weren't allowed on the property? Was it planted or was this truly just an oversight? But strangely as well, the key did not contain any DNA of Theresa's, the one the key supposedly actually belonged to.

Starting point is 00:34:01 Instead, it exclusively had Stephen Avery's DNA on it. In Teresa's car, there were a total of eight blood stains found that matched that of Stephen Avery. It was pointed out much later that the Styrofoam evidence box that contained a vial of Stephen's blood had been cut open, and there was a tiny prick at the top. As if a needle had been plunged into it, pointing to Steven's blood being planted in Teresa's car. But something that would help prove if it really was planted was to see if there was EDTA found in the blood from her car.

Starting point is 00:34:39 EDTA is an anti-coagulant that's added to all blood collection tubes to keep the blood in liquid form. Now out of the eight samples of blood in Teresa's car that matched Stevens, three of them were tested, and all tested negative for the presence of EDTA. So when FBI expert witness testified his belief that the blood did not come from the blood sample that they had of Stevens. And this blood sample was from Penny's case, so they had it for quite a while. Yeah, however, the defense expert testified that the FBI doesn't know the limit of detection for their specific EDTA test, and without knowing this, you can't conclude whether or

Starting point is 00:35:20 not it's actually there. So she testified that the stains could still have been planted. The amount of blood found in the cargo area of her car, so the trunk area, contained enough blood and hair of Theresa's for it to insinuate that she was transported in her own car after she was murdered. So, yeah, this is huge. I remember this from the show and how suspicious it was that there was that needle prick in his tube of blood because they had said in the lab that that was not

Starting point is 00:35:52 Standard for them to take any blood from it at all So it didn't make sense for it to be there otherwise, which is why so many of us believe that it was planted But that's why this whole EDTA thing is a really important element But it's hard because they did test for it and they didn't find it, but then's why this whole EDTA thing is a really important element, but it's hard because they did test for it and they didn't find it, but then there's that kind of, oh well, was it actually there though? Did you just not test it well enough? Like this other woman is saying, so it still feels very unclear.

Starting point is 00:36:16 Yeah, it does. And then I want to go to what you're saying really quick about her being transported in her own car. I mean, after all this time, I still go back and forth between who I think murdered Theresa and it's only fair to play Devil's advocate for every case we cover, so with that said, I just wonder why Steven would even put her body in her car and move it. Like, where would he need to move her body if much of her remains were found in the burn pits within a very short distance of his trailer. Like to me, this connects more to the theory

Starting point is 00:36:47 that maybe someone followed her, murdered her, and then put her in her own car, like a lot of people think. But if that's what happened, was that person Steven? Possibly. Yeah, I mean, it's so hard to tell because like you're saying, yeah, why would he drive, why would he drive her body over to the burn pit that's like, I don't know, right there. Like a couple hundred feet or yards away, I guess.

Starting point is 00:37:07 Yeah, it just doesn't make sense to me. So let's talk about Teresa's phone records for that day, as well as Stevens for that day. So as we mentioned, Teresa called Barb Janda at 1143 AM, saying that she was planning to arrive at 2 p.m. or even later. At 2.24 p.m. Steven Avery called her from his phone and it went to unanswered so Steven Avery called her at 2.24 p.m. called Teresa. Within that same minute he called her back but he used star 67 to hide his number. For those not in the US, I'm assuming this is only a US thing, when calling somebody, you can actually dial Star 67, followed by the phone number, and it will make the call

Starting point is 00:37:53 show up as unknown, so to hide your phone number. Yeah, I remember doing that for prank calls. It was like a teenager all the time. So Teresa did not answer the phone once again, but three minutes later, Teresa did take a call from Auto Trader that lasted almost five minutes, so she was on her phone. During this phone call with Don at Auto Trader, Teresa told her that she was on her way to Avery Salvajard. Then at 2.35 pm, so three minutes after hanging up with auto trader, Steven Avery called

Starting point is 00:38:27 Teresa again using star 67, but immediately hung up so it did not ring through on Teresa's end. Then two hours later, at 4.35 pm, Steven called Teresa's cell phone once again, but not using star 67, meaning his number showed up, and the duration of the call was 18 seconds, and apparently it went straight to voicemail. He claims that he called her nearly two hours after she supposedly left to request that she send him a photo of a loader that she had snapped.

Starting point is 00:38:58 So one thing I wanna connect from earlier, remember Heath how you were telling us about how she was getting from October 1st to the 7th in particular, in particular, she seemed to be getting a lot of calls from somebody that she didn't want to talk to and she, oh, not him again. And Tom was kind of like, oh, is everything okay? And she was like, yeah, don't worry about it. Yes, it's just some weirdo. I know that she had an appointment there that day, so it makes sense for Stephen to be calling her. Maybe he was doing star 67, thinking maybe she was ignoring

Starting point is 00:39:27 his phone number for whatever reason. And he was just trying to get a more accurate time of her arrival. Like that could be an easy explanation. But also, you can think of it as, well, he keeps calling her and she's not answering. So maybe that is who she was talking about to Tom. It could have been. And maybe she just she knew that it was him.

Starting point is 00:39:46 Yeah, so that's why she didn't answer any of his calls because she knew. And this is interesting because she arrived at Avery Salvich at 2.37 pm. So just two minutes after Steven had called her, the second to last time. With the last time being at, what was it, four? 4.35.

Starting point is 00:40:02 4.35, yeah. So four minutes after she arrived, she received a call that went to voicemail, which would make sense anyway because she would be working. And like we said, it didn't take her a great deal of time to take these photos. They were like anywhere between five to fifteen minutes or so. But of course, Stephen claims that she left his property and that he had nothing to do with her murder. And there is one eyewitness that could prove this, but the timing is very rough.

Starting point is 00:40:30 So yeah, try to pay attention. All these timing things are confusing, but this could be important. So a woman by the name of Mrs. Joellen Zipperer was out doing yard work when at 2.12pm, Theresa calls her and explains that she's having trouble finding her house. But Mrs. Zipper wouldn't listen to this voicemail until after 9pm that evening. So it's unclear to her how close that call came in regards to when Theresa actually arrived at her house.

Starting point is 00:40:59 Because like you said that call came in at 2.12 but she got to the Avery's at like 237. So as you're about to the Avery's at like 2.37. So as you're about to describe, it's a very small window of time. Right. So Mrs. Zipper claims that when Teresa did arrive, she spent about 15 minutes at the house and then she left. The interesting thing is that the Zipper's lived 15 minutes away, or about 11 miles from Avery salvage.

Starting point is 00:41:25 So let's say that Teresa did arrive even seconds after leaving that voicemail at 2.12pm and she was there for 15 minutes. That would put her leaving at about 2.27pm. Now we know that she arrived at Avery salvage at 2.37pm, according to phone records, giving her just 10 minutes to get there when it's 15 minutes away. And that's only if she arrived right after leaving the voicemail that she couldn't find the zipperer's house, and if Mrs. Zipperer is being accurate about her being there 15

Starting point is 00:41:57 minutes. So many people believe that Teresa did leave Avery's salvage and actually went to the zipperer's home after, meaning that she left there alive. But since Mrs. Zipperer doesn't know if Teresa arrived at 2 or 3 or 4 pm since she was outside all afternoon, it's incredibly hard to say. But it's absolutely possible if she only spent a few minutes at the Avery's photographing Barb's car and then she left alive. As we stated, Teresa's charred remains were found in a burn pit outside of Stephen Avery's trailer, but later, more remains of hers were found in a burn barrel outside of Barb

Starting point is 00:43:01 Jandis trailer, against Stephen's sister. Although many, including one of Stephen Avery's attorney's Kathleen Zelner, points out that it's not possible to burn a body in an open-air fire pit to such a degree in which they were found, leading people to believe that it was done elsewhere and the remains were planted. And as police suspected, testing on the burned human remains found at Avery Salvage confirmed that they belonged to Teresa. So there's the confirmation on that. Then, on November 11, 2005, so 11 days after Teresa went missing and was murdered, and two years after Stephen

Starting point is 00:43:40 was released from prison for his wrongful conviction of Penny's assault. 43-year-old Stephen Avery was arrested for the kidnapping, sexual assault and murder of 25-year-old Teresa Hallbach, along with a mutilation of a corpse and unlawful possession of a firearm. The investigation into Steven Avery was complicated from the beginning. Because he was embroiled in a lawsuit with the Manitawak County Police Department due to his wrongful conviction in 1985, the investigation for Theresa's murder had to be transferred to a neighboring police department, the Calumet County Sheriff's Office.

Starting point is 00:44:20 The ongoing lawsuit sought $36 million in damages from the state of Wisconsin, but was settled for just $400,000 in February of 2006 after Stephen was already in prison for the murder of Theresa Hallbach. Stephen maintained his innocence from the beginning and claimed that he was being framed. His lawyers, Dean Strang and Jerry Buting, alleged that all the evidence had been tampered with or possibly even planted. But as they prepared to go to trial, the investigation became increasingly more complex. Investigators brought in other members of the Avery family for questioning, including Stephen's 16-year-old nephew, Brendan Dassy. According to reports critical of the Calumet County investigation, Brendan, who was also

Starting point is 00:45:09 Stephen's alibi for the afternoon that Theresa went missing, was interrogated without legal counsel or apparent present. Now Brendan's original story included that he and his uncle Stephen had a bonfire late that afternoon, which was usual for them. He claimed to not know anything about Teresa's disappearance or murder, but he did note that he would have been home during the few minutes that she was there taking photos. Brendan told police that he stopped by Stephen's trailer around 4 p.m. on the day Teresa went missing and that what he heard sounded like a woman screaming for help.

Starting point is 00:45:46 He claims that Steven then opened the door to the trailer, revealing Teresa naked and tied to Steven's bed. Brennan said that Steven told him that he had been raping her and encouraged Brennan to do the same. He explained that he did before the two men shot and killed her while she screamed and begged them not to. He explained that he did before the two men shot and killed her while she screamed and beg them not to. On his confession tape, he can be heard saying, quote, we went in there, we tied her up. He stabbed her and he told me to cut her throat. They then burned her late that evening to

Starting point is 00:46:19 dispose of her body. On March 2nd, 2006, 16-year-old Brendan Dassy was also arrested for his involvement in the murder of Teresa Hallbach. He recanted his confession in his criminal trial, claiming that he had read what he admitted to in a book, and that it didn't really happen. It was just fantasy, not like his fantasy, but it was a fantasy story. Now critics and many of you in us out there feel like this was a coerced confession. And then it never would have happened had he had proper representation in the room with him because also, Brendan was reported to have an IQ

Starting point is 00:46:58 of around 73, which is considered to be very low and would have likely been very influenced by coercion, but it was too late. And I just wanna say, because we can't play the whole tape where anything was done have enough time. It is in the documentary, it's also on YouTube, but in his interrogation video,

Starting point is 00:47:17 it's just very disturbing to watch because although there are people who fully believe that his statement was true, he is clearly being spoon-fed the answers by investigators in my opinion. And my opinion as well. Yeah, like they kept, he didn't, like he came out and said that quote that I read,

Starting point is 00:47:33 but they were saying things like, be honest with us, you did blank, didn't you? And Brendan would say no or like pause, and then they would push him further and say things like, we know you did this, just tell us that you did. Like just be honest with us, you know you can be honest with us, like saying stuff like that

Starting point is 00:47:52 until he said yes to whatever they said. So even they knew that she had been shot in the head and they kept saying to him like, oh something with her head, tell us what happened with her head. And he said things like, we cut her hair. We did this to her head. Different things.

Starting point is 00:48:11 He's almost trying to make up something that will make them happy. Yeah, he's trying to come up with a good answer for them. Yeah, and then ultimately, one of the detectives goes, all right, I'm just going to come out and ask, who shot her in the head. And then I think he says, Steven. And so it's like, he's literally, he's literally seemingly just trying to appease them because they're pushing him so hard. Like he wasn't like, this wasn't

Starting point is 00:48:34 some big off the chess moment of like, okay, I'll tell you the whole story. It was like, they fed him the story and he just said yes after saying no first. Absolutely. And if you watch the documentary i i i i don't know how anybody could not see that there was coercion there it's it's that's why i said it's such a heartbreaking video to watch i actually watch it again the other day and it was just like oh my god this is just so sad because you know he is a lower IQ you know he's very young

Starting point is 00:49:01 and he's impressionable yet there is no one there to tell him that what they're doing is unethical. Wait, in my opinion. So before they arrest him, he asks them, Brendan asks the detectives if they'll be done by a certain time because he had a class project due after 1 p.m. So he clearly doesn't understand the severity of what he's saying and that he wouldn't be going back

Starting point is 00:49:24 to school ever again, but instead, he'd be going to prison. And he's just worried about getting to class to submit his project. Yeah, he's like, is this going to be over soon? Yeah. But he says it very nice. He remains calm the entire time. He doesn't get upset.

Starting point is 00:49:39 And there are also so many back-and-forth conversations that he had with his mom Barb after where she's begging for the answer to, why would you say all that stuff if it wasn't true? To which at one point, Brendan actually says, I'm really stupid mom, I can't help it. So it's just so, so heartbreaking. Especially considering, by the way, there was no evidence to back up anything that Brendan said. Teresa's DNA wasn't found on the restraints or handcuffs that Steven had allegedly bought

Starting point is 00:50:11 to try on his wife Jody when she got out of prison for a seven-month DUI stint, which she did shortly after Steven was arrested himself. There was no blood found on the mattress, no blood found in the bedroom, no bullet holes in the house at all. But they essentially made Brendan either go against Stephen for a shorter sentence and pretend that what he said was true, which Brendan claims was not true, or take back his interrogation statement and spend life in prison at just 16 years old. There was one thing in Brendan's statement that did in a way connect. And this

Starting point is 00:50:47 was regarding Stephen Avery's garage. You know, this was a point of interest for a while, even though no evidence was found in it. Then later, a faint stain was noticed. Brendan Dassy said that the stain appeared sometime on the night of October 31st, the night that Teresa was killed. And in so many words, he told investigators that he and Steven had tried to clean it up. It was a four-foot by three-foot stain, so quite large, that was nearly invisible to the naked eye, but Luminol helped to show it, giving it a very faint, bluish glow. Oddly enough, when tested, this stain didn't even

Starting point is 00:51:26 show the presence of blood, nor did anywhere else in the garage. But some experts say that it's possible for bleach to destroy blood, if cleaned thoroughly enough. The garage was searched, and nothing else was found. And then in March of 2006, so a few months after Theresa's murder, Brendan confessed, I say confessed because it's hard to say, because he confessed this to investigator Tom Fassbender, who is the one that seemingly coerced Brendan's original confession, so he apparently confessed

Starting point is 00:51:57 that Theresa was shot in Stephen's garage, not the bedroom like he had kind of stated before, or they had pushed him to state before. When they searched the garage later, they suddenly found a bullet fragment that they had not found before during their eight-day search. It was from Stevens' 22 caliber rifle, and although they couldn't conclusively say that Teresa's DNA was on it, the DNA profile on the bullet matched elements of Teresa's own DNA. And Teresa definitely could have been shot elsewhere or maybe somewhere outside because

Starting point is 00:52:31 it's just weird that the houses didn't contain any bullet holes like the garages and bedrooms didn't have any trace of blood spatter, which is incredibly hard to clean, especially small traces that aren't visible to the naked eye. But why would she be shot outside and nobody heard this? Like, it's all just so suspicious to me, which is why the documentary was made. Too many questions, yeah.

Starting point is 00:52:54 Yeah, and then I also think back to Brendan, you know, saying that she was shot in the garage. And I just think back to the different clips that are shown in making a murderer. There's this one scene where he is being forced to say that he's sorry and admit to what he did and this guy is so horrible to watch. This guy's like, are you sorry? Because I can't help you if you're not sorry.

Starting point is 00:53:19 And so Brendan eventually hits that he's sorry, like crosses off and then writes what happened and he says his very original statement of I was home me and my uncle had a bonfire that night I don't know what happened to Teresa kind of thing. Yeah I do remember that part. It was like it was like in a correctional facility right? Yes in like a classroom but then this fucking investigator is like so unhappy that he wrote that and he literally says, that's not true. Write what you said, right that you murdered her, right? That's he's literally telling him to write something else.

Starting point is 00:53:54 And then at another part in it, he says, draw Theresa, chained up on the bed, draw her chained up, draw this, draw the bullet, draw this, like telling him what to draw. So he's drawing it because they're the only two people in the room He doesn't know what else to do This guy is being such an ass about it and making him write and draw certain things So now you look those things up and you're like oh he confessed to this on paper He drew this now the fuck he didn't he made him draw and write that. Yeah, this isn't fucking kindergarten, come on. Yeah, this is why this case is so frustrating, particularly for me, for Brennan Dassy, because

Starting point is 00:54:30 he was, in my opinion, very much forced to write and draw certain things that would appease the investigators. I absolutely believe that as well. So I'm getting so fired up, oh my god, this is just like... He's getting pissed! like fired up. Oh my god, this just is like, you can piss. I'm going to piss. So in March of 2007, Steven Avery was convicted of the first degree murder of Theresa Hallbach, along with unlawful possession of a firearm, and he was sentenced to life in prison. The following month in April of 2007, Brandon

Starting point is 00:55:00 Dassy was also charged with murder and sentenced to life in prison, although unlike his uncle, he will be eligible for parole. Now we all know the story from there as we explained earlier, you know, Steven Avery and his new legal team, helmed by exoneration expert attorney Kathleen Zelner, have appealed his conviction multiple times, but he remains in prison for Teresa's murder. And although we could go into so much more detail on Steven and Brendan, we could also have a whole multi-part series on alternate theories as well.

Starting point is 00:55:32 So let's cut to the chase a bit and discuss some other thoughts since the identity of Teresa's killer is quite divided. First of all, we want to say that although some of Teresa's charred remains were found in Steven's burn pile and Barb's burn pit less than a mile away from the property at a gravel quarry, more charred human remains were found during a search with a cadaver dog. Alongside the bones was human flesh and blood. This did not test positive for Steven Stevens, but instead in unknown male. Now, Stevens' attorney, Zellner, believes that testing the DNA of these bones

Starting point is 00:56:12 could help prove that Steven didn't murder Teresa, but that someone else did, and then burned her off property and planted her remains on his property. That is if the remains even belonged to her, but it would be good to know. Yeah, especially because what are the chances that somebody else is killed in the vicinity? I don't know. This is not a large area. One mile away, somebody else has murdered. I mean, I guess it's possible.

Starting point is 00:56:36 In Burns, there's Chard remains. Good point. So obviously if we're talking about the male DNA, that could indicate her actual killer, not like the victim of the charred remains, but that's why it's important that these get tested. Absolutely, and one thing that they are missing of Teresa in particular is her pelvic bone, and motions are still being filed to test these bones. But now, onto the alternate persons of interest, not to police, but to the public. Teresa's brother, Mike Hallbach, quickly became the Hallbach family's unofficial spokesperson,

Starting point is 00:57:10 like from the beginning, just handling the press as soon as the day after Teresa was reported missing. Now Mike told a reporter who asked how he was doing. He said this was when she, before she remains, were found when she was still missing. He said said quote, I mean, the grieving process, could last days, could last weeks, could last years. Hopefully we find answers as soon as possible so we can begin to hopefully move on, hopefully with Theresa still in our life. Even at the time, people found this strange,

Starting point is 00:57:46 because he seemed to be acting as if she was already gone, despite that last comment, hopefully with Theresa still in our life. But he kept saying, you know, he didn't really know where his words were, which happens, that's fine. You know, maybe he's grieving, and he's just struggling to speak. Yeah, we talked about the fact in other episodes about how people just grieve in different ways. They really do. So when making a murderer aired and more clips of news reports and interviews were made public,

Starting point is 00:58:12 critics began to rally against him, accusing him of being unaffected by the disappearance and death of his sister. Again, everybody grumes differently, so we're not claiming that. But one article released shortly after the first season of the show aired Seath quote, in terms of fostering compassion for the dead, Hallbach family spokesperson Mike doesn't help things at all by creepily grinning when discussing his sister's murder trial and by blindly investing faith in the police, saying things like, we love the police, which you know, that's fine, but I think mostly what they're talking about

Starting point is 00:58:48 is he did smile a lot and that kind of turned people the wrong way, they were like, why are you, why do you look so happy? This is a really tragic situation. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely a little bit weird, but. Yeah, there's one thing, there's one thing in particular about him that I'm gonna bring up later when we talk about ryan a little bit more but you know we're just mentioning all the things here no offense but then to continue

Starting point is 00:59:11 that quote that i was saying earlier uh... it says did he need closure so much that he refused to see the defenses reasonable suggestion that his sister's actual murder might still be somewhere on the loose or did he need to show solidarity with the police for some other reason? So it seems kind of far-fetched, but in this wild of an investigation, no one's really off limits. That's very true. Then there were Teresa's romantic partners, either real or perceived, because much of this is based on public speculation.

Starting point is 00:59:45 As the most intimate and personal details of Teresa's life were being made public and fodder for gossip news columns, one suspect made his way to the spotlight for cheating on his wife with Teresa. Now shortly before she disappeared, Teresa had told a friend of hers that she was seeing a man she referred to as DJ Bradley. Tereza explained that it had been purely physical and that she had broken it off because he had started acting quote, weird. She told this friend that he had been calling her incessantly, which makes explain who had been calling her at work, as observed by her photography

Starting point is 01:00:22 colleague Tom Pierce. On September 23rd 2005, this man, later revealed to be a man named Ken, wrote to Risa in an email saying quote, This email has a lot of exclamation points by the way, so it says, Hey, I got your letter in your package today. Thank you so much. I already read the letter. Once again, I felt like I was there with you. In the package. Well, I think you take better care of me than my mother does. Well, I think that's a good thing. I wouldn't want my mom sending me porn.

Starting point is 01:00:51 I really appreciate everything, and dammit, I really want to talk with you. I had a really good week last week, and some funny stories. But I'll put that into a letter on Sunday. I really miss you, and I really thank you for sending me messages to my beeper. I almost feel like I was at the games with you. Oh, and congrats on your last few wins. I should be back online on Monday. Hopefully we can talk. I miss you, and thank you very much

Starting point is 01:01:16 for the goodies. I'll let you know the results. Bye, Ken. Teresa occasionally shot Budwara photo shoots, so that may explain the claim that he's receiving porn from her about that. We have no explanation. So maybe those calls were from this guy Ken, or they were from Steven, like I had mentioned earlier, but who knows. I mean, he seems very excited to be receiving something from Teresa. So I gotta say though, it would make...

Starting point is 01:01:47 Police can get her phone records from the first to the seventh to see if she is getting a call. And I wonder if they can access Steven's phone records from that time surely they can to see if he was the one calling her throughout those days. So this could easily be figured out by just looking at phone records, but these dates are not made public, so that's why we don't know. The only ones made public are the 31st and the 1st.

Starting point is 01:02:13 So the man whose real name is actually Joshua Kenneth Sase. I don't know if it's, do you think it's Sase? Sase. I think it's Sase. Yeah. We're going to go with Sase. S-A-S-S-E. Sase. So it's not Ken or Yeah, I think I was SSA. SSA, SSA. So it's not Ken or DJ.

Starting point is 01:02:28 His name was Joshua Kenneth, but it makes sense that he would go by Ken. So he was married to a woman named Brenda and they lived on Cuss Road in rural Manitouac County, directly behind Avery's auto salvage, which to me is heavily suspicious. Oh my God. Yeah, there couldn't be more suspicious. No, it could not be. So on November 5th, 2005, six days after Theresa had last been seen, another resident of Cuss Road called in a

Starting point is 01:02:54 tip to police that a woman who looked like Theresa had knocked on his door late on the evening prior, looking for a home in the area. So this would mean that she was alive until the fourth, which feels very iffy to me. Where was she the rest of that time? Yeah. So the home that the tipper claim that Teresa was looking for was 4130 Cuss Road, or the home of Brenda and Joshua, or Ken. And coincidentally, or maybe not, one of the investigators working to Reese's case also lived nearby and just happened to be related to Joshua.

Starting point is 01:03:30 Police did announce at the time that they spoke with Joshua, although his identity was concealed at the time and they did not believe him to be involved. Later Brenda and Joshua did wind up divorcing, and she claimed that he had been physically violent towards her. This could point to many different possibilities. Did Brenda kill Teresa out of anger regarding the alleged affair, and use her husband's connection to an investigator to cover it up and frame their neighbor? Was Joshua angry that Teresa had cut things off?

Starting point is 01:04:03 On September 5, 2005, so less than two months before her disappearance and murder, Teresa wrote in her journal quote, �I'm wondering if I found my soulmate last night. Wesley Bundle was there. I don't know, something just clicked inside of me. I've never felt so calm and so excited at the same time. That's how we still feel today. But aside from this diary entry,

Starting point is 01:04:27 we found no indications as to who Wesley Bundle was or whether or not he has been investigated for possible involvement in Teresa's murder. So definitely I think that Ken Angle is really good that he knows an investigator because a lot of people are obviously wondering if he killed her and used the investigator to help him frame the Avery's, it's definitely possible. Definitely possible.

Starting point is 01:04:54 So, Ryan Hilagus, Teresa's ex-boyfriend and the champion of the search efforts for her was never officially considered a suspect. But internet slewster convinced that more than anyone else, except for maybe Steven and Brendan themselves, it's likely that Ryan had something to do with Teresa's disappearance and death. Many believe that he was flagrantly lying when he was giving his testimony in court, citing his behavior as shifty and rehearsed. He also seemed to forget certain details, such as whether or not he was questioned

Starting point is 01:05:27 with or without Scott, Teresa's roommate, or when he last saw Teresa. He claimed that he stopped by her house the day before Teresa disappeared to drop something off for Scott. But he didn't say what it was, and he couldn't remember when he had been there. Because he wasn't considered a suspect, he was never subjected to a police interview or a polygraph test, or even asked to provide an alibi. Teresa's family and friends claimed that they started to worry that something had happened to her when her cell phone's voicemail inbox was full.

Starting point is 01:06:00 Now at trial, Ryan admitted to having the password to get into the mailbox in order to print off records for her family. He claimed that he hadn't been given the password, but that he had guessed it. However, her voicemail inbox did not appear to be full after all, leading many to believe that Ryan had deleted and incriminating messages that could have led to him becoming a suspect in her murder. Now according to Stephen's attorney, Kathleen Zelner, Ryan told police that Teresa's front driver's side headlight had been damaged,

Starting point is 01:06:32 and that Teresa had made a claim with her insurance and received a payout, but had yet to fix the light. After verifying this with Teresa's insurance, Stephen's legal team found that, in fact, she had not made a claim about the light prior to her death, but her headlight was, in fact, broken. Kathleen believes that the light was not damaged until after Theresa's death, meaning that Ryan must have had something to do with it, as he had connected himself to the damaged light without having any way of knowing that it had been damaged in the first place.

Starting point is 01:07:06 It's also rumored that Ryan is in possession of Teresa's planner, which was believed to have been in Teresa's car at the time of her death, although this has never been substantiated. I think these are pretty suspicious points to bring up. I don't really know what it would mean about the headlight, like if it had gotten broken, if he had murdered her and it had somehow gotten broken, like if it had gotten broken, if he had murdered her and it had somehow gotten broken, like if he had, I don't know, runner off the road or something, but then why would you mention it?

Starting point is 01:07:31 Like, how is this even relevant to anything that her headlight was broken? Yeah, I don't really know. I think this may be a little bit of a reach, but it is interesting that he, but it could just be a misunderstanding. Maybe he knew it was broken and said oh she called the insurance and she actually didn't I mean they weren't dating they stopped dating four years earlier so maybe she told him that she didn't she didn't like this could

Starting point is 01:07:55 mean nothing but it is just kind of a weird detail yeah and I think it would be really strange that like four years would pass and then he would still be seemingly so obsessed with Teresa or so upset about the breakup that he would murder her. I mean, it's possible that maybe he had hoped all this time they could get back together and maybe he had recently made a move trying to

Starting point is 01:08:18 and she rejected him. I mean, who knows? But that's a thing. It's like we don't know the nature of their prior relationship or the ins and outs. Was there any like physical abuse? Did they fight it all? Like we just don't know any of that. Very true. There is one thing that I want to bring up that to me is the most suspicious thing. It's an interview after Teresa's car was found.

Starting point is 01:08:38 And it's with Mike Hallbach, Teresa's brother, and her ex-boyfriend Ryan Hiligas, who we're talking about right now. And we're gonna post the video on our socials too because to me, they're body language and the fact that Mike and Ryan, like, keep looking at each other is so sketchy, but I'm just going to play the clip for you because you can still hear their, just a heavy uncertainty for both of them. And to differentiate their voices since you can't look at them, just note that Ryan is the first person to answer the question and his voice is louder than mics

Starting point is 01:09:09 did they find anything while you were out searching i'm not really gonna comment on that but if anything was found you know we had proper thirty and professionals take a look at it as they needed i'm a saddened side you're the sadder than what the car but how many other time to you on the site tonight? You were there Saturday when you followed the car, but how many other times were you on the site? I wasn't on the site. That's not true at all. Did you get through Mike? Were you part of the site's search party?

Starting point is 01:09:36 We have no, the people, I mean, the original, we originally found the vehicle was a member of our search party. It was a member of our search party. The permission to go on to the site. But no one other than that has ever been on the actual site. It's been trying to see them taped off, secured. Yeah, just so weird.

Starting point is 01:09:58 I mean, again, looking at their body language makes it so much more sketchy, because they keep looking at each other for answers and almost approval for what they're saying. And you know, when Ryan is asked if he was ever on the property, Mike is the one to kind of be like, no, you're never on the property. And it's like, okay, I'll let him answer. Yeah, I do think it's a little bit strange, but also it could just be that they're very terrible at interviews. Yeah, I mean, it could just be that they're very terrible at interviews.

Starting point is 01:10:25 Yeah, I mean, they could just be really awkward. Nervous or something? Yeah, super nervous that they're on TV and just the nature of what they're discussing. Maybe they're worried about saying something that is not supposed to be public information, but it's just still, it's hard not to, like I think that YouTube video where we got the clip, it's in the documentary. It's titled Ryan Hullbock and, or's in the documentary, it's titled Ryan Hallbach and or sorry, Mike Hallbach and Ryan Hilgis

Starting point is 01:10:48 sketchy interview. So it's kind of like everybody thinks this is weird. Yeah, definitely. And it's funny because Mike Hallbach is the spokesperson for his sister's case. So you would think that he would be, you know, quite comfortable with doing interviews and stuff, but it does appear to be very strange.

Starting point is 01:11:05 I think especially because of the whole framing aspect, you're claiming that you were never on the property and Mike had to kind of interview Vinen say he was never on the property and that, you know, if they are behind it, they would have had to have been on the property to plant the evidence. So I think that's why people think it's weird because why are you being so bizarre answering these questions? Yeah, I don't know. But again, this, who knows? This case is so, that's why this case is so interesting because there's so many players involved. But I mean, really, it's hard not to go back to the source of everything, which

Starting point is 01:11:41 is Stephen Avery's property and his family. Right. And we're not even trying to point fingers in too many other directions. It's just this is all a part of the story because of that heavy belief that he's being framed. It is important to talk about other aspects, but obviously he has been charged for this. So under the law, he is responsible. Yes.

Starting point is 01:12:03 So, earlier, we mentioned Pamela Sturm, who is the woman that located Teresa's car on the Avery property. Now, she was granted permission to search the property by Earl Avery, who is Steven's younger brother. Well, the day that Pamela found the RAV4, which is Teresa's car, while she and her daughter, Nicole, were awaiting the police, Pamela noticed a man

Starting point is 01:12:24 up on the ridge of the property. He was just standing there apparently and it creeped Pamela out so much that it led her to hide her daughter behind a car so this man wouldn't see her. And when she was later asked if this man was Stephen Avery, she said, I don't know for sure, it was too far to see. But according to Earl Avery, again the younger brother of Stephen, a man named Andre Martinez was at Avery Salvich multiple times a month to get parts and he was even there on November 5th.

Starting point is 01:12:57 The day Teresa's car was found, so he definitely could have been the man that was up on the ridge near where Teresa's car was found. So, I mean, if he had access to this area, could he have been the one to plant her car there, and could he have been at Avery Salvage on October 31st when Teresa was there and maybe he murdered her? Well, later on the day of November 5th, again, so he left Avery Salvej and then went home. And when he went home, 42-year-old Andre Martinez attempted to murder his wife, his child, and his dog with an axe.

Starting point is 01:13:34 He was arrested two days later, and weirdly enough, during his questioning, Andre stated that if the Avery's were responsible for killing Teresa Halbach, he would take the blame for it because he knew he was going to prison for life anyway. So was this his way of confessing? Like in a very odd way? Yeah, and he admitted to suffering from blackouts, claiming to have even suffered from one when he attempted to murder his family. He also reportedly told Barb Janda, Stephen sister, that he knows Stephen is innocent. And he is currently serving 30 to 60 years in prison and is in his sixth year.

Starting point is 01:14:12 So many people online have said, well, if he did it, he has nothing to lose. He's already in prison, but he's not in prison for life. So he could get out early because it was attempted murder. So maybe if he did commit Theresa's murder, he's not saying it because he doesn't want to spend life in prison. Yeah, but it's also that's also not how justice works. Like just because you're accused of one crime doesn't mean that you shouldn't be accused and prosecuted for another crime that you can. Oh, no, of course. I mean, this, I don't even know if police question him for Teresa's disappearance or murder

Starting point is 01:14:44 at all. This is just people on the internet putting to into together short and this is also you know pure speculation not saying not saying that he had anything to do with it but i'm just saying that that kind of thought process doesn't work with the justice system right of course but i think just because later that day he tried to take an act to his family people people say, oh, well, this guy was on the property. So what are the chances that in this small area, there's another murderous man.

Starting point is 01:15:11 I mean, maybe there is, but maybe he's not involved at all, but worth mentioning. So one of the wilder theories making the rounds on internet forums is the claim that Ryan Hiligas, her ex-boyfriend, Scott Bouldorn, her roommate, and Ken Crats, the prosecutor and Steven's first trial, were embroiled in drug sales or smuggling together. Ryan, at the time an unemployed nurse was frequently stopping by Scott and Teresa's home and making deliveries to Scott, who worked as a construction worker, visits which went unexplained. Ken had a history of struggling with addiction to opioids, and his career suffered because

Starting point is 01:15:52 of it, so while this sounds pretty outlandish, some connect to those dots. After winning the trial against both Stephen Avery and Brendan Dassy in 2007, Ken Crats continued to prosecute high-profile cases in the state of Wisconsin, thrilled to have gotten justice that he sought for Teresa Hallbuck. But two years later, he became in Sconston as own legal troubles, leading some to believe that there was ulterior motives for his proximity to the case. In 2009, Ken was working the domestic violence proceedings of a young woman pressing charges against her ex-boyfriend. Now, according to this woman,

Starting point is 01:16:31 while acting as her attorney and her abuse case, he sent her dozens of sexually explicit text messages, including, quote, are you the kind of girl that likes secret contact with an older married elected DA, the riskier, better he's such a creep and so many people who watch making a murder hate him he just has the creepiest voice and he's so conniving I just couldn't stand this guy but he that's you know also horribly inappropriate yeah like this is a conflict of interest because you're trying to get involved with a

Starting point is 01:17:03 person that you're representing. So creepy. So multiple other women came forward after this account and Ken was accused of taking advantage of vulnerable women coming out of abusive relationships who had trusted Ken to work on their behalf. One client said that he had slid his hand up her skirt while she was in his office for a domestic abuse lawsuit against her husband.

Starting point is 01:17:27 And another said that Ken had blackmailed her into performing sex acts on him. I hate you Ken. Such a terrible person. Now Ken addressed these allegations in an interview with Megan Kelly. Megan asked, quote, You were suspended and ran into some legal trouble of your own for unethical behavior with female jurors. Some have said that that's a good reason for us to not listen to anything you have to

Starting point is 01:17:49 say. To those critics who say that, you say what? Ken's response was, all of this, a problem which occurred because of, or at least partly because of a prescription drug dependence, happened in 2010. That's three years after the making of the documentary. Nothing about that really deplorable behavior occurred during the Stephen Avery case before the Stephen Avery case. Nothing at all is at least truthfully or honestly attached to that. In 2016, the year after the documentary was released on Netflix, an assistant district attorney in Wisconsin named Michael Greaseback an assistant district attorney in Wisconsin named Michael Greaseback released a book called Indefensible, the missing truth about Stephen Avery, Teresa Hallbach, and making a murderer.

Starting point is 01:18:33 In it, Stephen's former fiancé, Jodie, claimed that she believed he was absolutely capable of what he was accused of. Jodie detailed the time they spent together as a couple, and that Steven was allegedly obsessed with BDSM, doesn't mean he's a murderer, of course, but he had one strangled her unconscious during sex, which was not warranted. There's also something that we were gonna mention earlier

Starting point is 01:18:58 about how after he was imprisoned for what happened with Penny, the attack on Penny, that he was eventually exonerated for. She split up with him, even though they had kids together, and he would kind of write her letters so angry that she wouldn't bring the kids to see him and kind of like threaten to kill her and said like, ha ha after it.

Starting point is 01:19:20 Oh god. Yeah, but a lot of people were like, why would you say that? Like that's so creepy and aggressive. I just, we didn't mention it because there's so many other things to get to, but that also is included in what happened with him and Jody. So Jody thinks that he is capable of this. Jody also remembers once ingesting rat poison just so that she would be hospitalized and could get away from him. Wow, that's intense. I know.

Starting point is 01:19:46 So in interviews aired on the news and in the documentary, Jody said that she believed that he was innocent, but later revealed that he had threatened her if she didn't behave as he demanded she did. In the 18 months that Jody lived in the trailer on the Avery property with Stephen, she claims that he beat her multiple times and also wanted to film himself assaulting her, which is so disgusting. And Jody still feels guilty for not being around the day of Teresa's murder, claiming that she wishes that she could have saved her.

Starting point is 01:20:19 And Jody remembered, quote, he's like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. A nice person, a semi nice person, and then behind closed doors, he's like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, a nice person, a semi nice person, and then behind closed doors, he's a monster. He told me once, all bitches owe him because of the one that sent him to prison the first time, we all owed him, and he could do whatever he wanted. As of right now, 60-year-old Stephen Avery and 33-year-old Brendan Dassy remained behind bars. An appeal filed in April of last year cited that a delivery man, Thomas Sawinski, saw two men not fitting the description of Steven or Brendan, in one account the men were described

Starting point is 01:20:59 as potentially Bobby Dassy, Brendan's brother, and an older man putting Theresa's car down Avery Road. Ultimately, that appeal was denied, but in August of 2022, Steven Avery's legal team again appealed his conviction, citing new evidence. The new season of making a murderer will premiere next year. Thank you so much everybody for listening to this episode of Going West. Yes, thank you guys so much for listening to this episode and on Tuesday we'll have an all new case for you guys to dive into.

Starting point is 01:21:41 One thing I want to point out is that even though we were obviously talking about throughout this episode that Steven potentially isn't involved, it does not mean that he's not a guys to say that. Absolutely, and I mean who knows, maybe he is behind Theresa Halbox murder. Absolutely, right. I mean, he was convicted of it, so I don't know, we'll have to see what happens in season three, honestly. Yeah, I'm actually really looking forward to that, and yeah, I'd love to know what all of you guys think, because I think we've all kind of had opinions during for years, so a comment on our socials and let us know what you think. Halloween is coming up in a few days. If you're listening, when this episode comes out, Heath and I are having a party.

Starting point is 01:22:32 We're so excited to do that. And it's gonna be a good weekend. So hope you guys have fun and are very safe. Yes, please stay safe this Halloween, and we'll see you guys next week. All right, guys, so for everybody out there in the world don't be a stranger Thank you. you

Going West: True Crime - Teresa Halbach // 248

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