Good Investing Talks - What happened to the drunk in the bar, Guy Spier? A talk about honesty, givers, and meditation

Episode Date: March 9, 2023

Guy Spier is back! Three years after our first interview (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2jGs_PC8EQX8fIuSUCt8PEcWD0O3GH__), I had the pleasure of interviewing Guy Spier of Aquamarine Capital again in his library in Zurich.

In this interview, we've touched on honesty and drunks in bars, what seduction and investing have in common, and how you can stay a giver without changing a portfolio very much. If you liked this interview, please subscribe to the channel and leave a like. Thank you. A warm welcome to the Good Investing Talks podcast. I'm your host, Tilman Fiersh, and I'm very happy that you're discovering underfollowed investors and underfollowed companies together with me.

Before we jump into this conversation, I want to thank my supporters. They help me to keep this channel free and public for everyone. Thank you very much. If you also want to join the Good Investing Supporters Club, please click on the link below. You're very welcome. And now, one last step. Here's the disclaimer for you. All we are doing here is no advice and no recommendation.

Please always do your own work. And now enjoy the video. Hi, Guy. It's great to have you back after three years. We had our last interview exactly in this library. And I was traveling to Switzerland right now for Rob's meeting, Rob Benal's meeting. And I thought I would also say hello at your place and do an interview with you. So it's great that you're so nice to host me again. Tillman, I would have liked to bring you to Zurich. I think it's a beautiful place. I think you should come live here, but somehow we haven't convinced you. Okay. Maybe someday. today. Let's jump a bit back to our last interview and there you were sharing your ideas

in meditation and your plans on meditation. So the first question that also came from the audience is how is your meditation practice going? So I don't remember if at that point I'd already done or not done my Vipassana retreat. I think it was exactly before. Before so I can update you that I lasted three days. It was in the the French juror. And I was in a room with two other men of similar build to me who snored very, very loudly without any furniture in there. And I, within three days, was utterly sleepless, a total wreck. And I was still told by some of the people there that I should stay and continue, but I felt like it was not the right time or the right moment. I think that my friends all say

that I would never have lasted any Vipassan retreat. I have the intention to do one this time in India. What I discovered was that the French Calvinist approach to Vipassan retreats maybe as a little extreme, and I really developed a respect for French-speaking Calvinism in that it's very harsh and very brutal, and I thought I would do well in the Jura Mountains. I don't think it was the right place to go. So I failed at my first. Vipassan retreat. But it was an important thing for me because I have experiences of doing things that I was very unhappy with in the past where I didn't quit. And I think quitting is often as much a discipline as sticking with something. And in that moment, I knew that

what was right for me to do was to quit. So I quit. Subsequent to that, what I can say is that even those three days of meditation taught me an enormous amount about what meditation is. I had thought that I would go to this retreat and I could take out all sorts of thoughts about my life and process them. But very quickly in the meditations, we went way beyond that to a place that feels quite harsh and in a certain way lonely. You kind of feel like you're there with the universe as if you're sort of floating between the stars or something like that. So that was a experience for me, and I have a question of, I'm curious to discover how my mind would have developed had I gone all the way through from day three to day 10, so I quit at day

three. I discovered that for individual meditations, five or ten minutes is what works for me, and I found an app called Insight Timer, which is really lovely, where I don't do the guided meditations, there's just a gong that happens. But I can't say that I have a meditation practice and that I meditate every day. I feel like going for a run, going rowing, and all of those kinds of activities are meditative. I realize that it's not the same thing. And so I think that I'm still very much a beginner who hasn't made much progress. I would say that subsequently I've had conversations with Josh Tarasov, who's a well-known investor, and I think also a friend of Rob Vinalz.

And he has a, I've done group meditation with Josh. And Josh is really advanced to my perspective and experienced. And after we did a short meditation together, we kind of went around the room to discuss what our personal sensations were and what feelings were coming up. And I can say that I was astounded by the quality of the discreet, description of what Josh was saying about what was going on. So he's got wiring that maybe I could get if I did more meditation, but I was really impressed with that.

So the answer is I've made some progress, but probably nowhere near as much as some of my meditation friends would have liked. Let's go from the inner-looking side with meditation to the outer-looking side. We also touched in our last interview. There was this metaphor with the bar and drinks. What impact did it have? have on you, this kind of honest say. Yeah, it's funny, because you would imagine that somebody like me using a metaphor of

a drunken bars, I said that with a little bit of trepidation because you sort of worry that somebody's going to say, this guy is talking about drunks and bars, I don't want to go anywhere near him. And it's just fascinating to me that every time that I successfully become more honest, in my public persona and I take something out that I feel like would be a negative

and it actually never see it doesn't ever seem to be a negative people seem to sort of like take it in and there's something really fascinating to jump to something that you probably don't follow very closely and I should probably follow less closely there's this Prince Harry

who's just written this book spare and you know he's generating a lot of reaction in the UK but I think that in a similar way he is really and there are mistakes in the book and there are all sorts of legitimate criticisms that one can make but you see somebody who I think through therapy has been transformed into somebody who's removed the mask and he's really revealing his true self to the audience and that's kind of interesting in terms of so I and I think that what's really interesting is that when you find something that is honest and is also true and is useful to other people, you now then share that reality. So when I bring up the drunks and bars analogy with other people who've maybe seen

that video, there's an understanding and we kind of live in that metaphor together. And so communication has been advanced, if you like. So I think it's for investing, I think it really is a wonderful metaphor. I think that we all want to believe that we're smarter than we are. We all all want to believe that we know what we're doing more than we actually do. We all want to believe that we have a model of the world that works for us and for our investors. And the world has this way of proving to us when we least want it, when we least expect it, when it least convenient for us, the world has a way of showing up and saying you don't really understand what the world is about. You don't really understand yourself. You're actually not that smart. And

So the drunks and bars helps with that. So, yeah, it's been fun. I mean, those metaphors, yeah, I think that what I'm also grateful for is I can't think of anything right now, but I believe that it's happened to many people that they bring something up, that then they can't live down afterwards, that they don't like, that they don't like about the fact that they brought it up, and then they have to live with whatever it was that they said. And I don't feel that way about that metaphor, which.

is surprising because it took a certain kind of nervousness, or I was a little nervous to talk about it, if you like. Another metaphor that kind of pushes the boundaries is I think that there's enormous aspect to success and, if you like, salesmanship or marketing oneself that can be likened to seduction. I talk about internally in the office that what you're actually doing is you're kind of applying some of the same ideas or thoughts that a male would have in seeking to seduct a female. That's what you're trying to do in business. And what I've learned if you took a look at the mating dance between male and females, you know, you have both males and females who dressing themselves up to be something that they're not, to create an

impression that is maybe not the reality, and the reality comes out later. The man displays a fancy sports car or takes the girl out to a beautiful restaurant, but actually the bank account is empty. Or you'll have all sorts of props that a woman will use in order to enhance her physical attributes, whether it's lipstick or a certain kind of dress. And our job in the investing world and in the mating game is you can't ignore it. You have to play that game, but at the same time you have to see what's underlying it. But yeah, so there's another analogy for you. I don't know if you want to dive into that one. I think it's a good one because it's building a bridge to my next question about givers and takers. Like you described social life as an exchange

right now with this mating behavior, but it's also the economy. In our last interview, you named givers and takers as two interesting concepts and i think they also helped others and i think he also said that you try to surround yourself with givers so how are you optimizing your life to have a life around givers i mean that that i think is a lifelong journey and obviously the first thing is to discover that distinction and i don't know if i mentioned it there and i have had said this elsewhere but it's a a powerful insight that, you know, there's a movie that I watched whose name I won't remember right now, and it was the search for the chalice, the chalice of Christ, something, I don't remember

the exact religious significance, but at the very end of the movie, the hero of the movie has to pick the correct chalice, and if he doesn't pick the correct chalice, very bad things would happen to him. And there's three of them, and one is out of gold and silver and beautifully decorated with jewels and the other one is the simplest one. And he correctly chooses the simplest one. But there are many signals in the movie that perhaps the right chalice would have been the beautifully decorated gold ones. Similarly, often the world's greatest givers are actually quite gruff and not very accessible on the outside. And the reason for that is that if you're a giving person,

you're going to have a lot of people coming at you. By contrast, people who are takers, often dressed in the most beautiful suits and have the best manners and have the most pleasant external appearance because they have to be that way, otherwise they won't lure anybody in. I think that a huge part of anybody's life, my life certainly, is a kind of a sorting process where you try and sort through who is somebody that you want in your life, if you like, and who is somebody. And I was with a, actually he was a private banker who's, I have no relationship with him. He used to be my father's private banker and I was just taking him out for

dinner. It was so interesting because I didn't really know him very well. But I was offering to do things for him. And without thinking about it, he was coming up with ways to promote me to his client base. I was saying, hey, we're just here to have dinner. Don't do that. And I don't see the interest for you. He was just doing that. And it was interesting that he was revealing something about him that he didn't even realize he was revealing. So that told me that I want to have him a little closer in my life. Life is a constant sorting process. And we, because if, to just go back to the drinks analogy, you know, we want every drink to be a good drink. So we were talking then, we were using the drinks as an analogy for an investment that we might buy. But

if we think of the people in our lives, we want to be surrounded by so many good people that even if we make a bad choice or if we make an ill-considered choice, it's such a great group of people around us that we're still not going to fall, we're still not going to be too terrible. I find it extremely interesting that I think that the modus operandi, it wouldn't surprise me if they talk explicitly about it. Berkshire Hathaway, if they have to sell shares, in a company that they own in their portfolio, or if for some reason they were selling something,

they have a policy of not selling the businesses that they own. I really do believe that their very powerful interest is not to take top dollar, because if you take top dollar and then you have a disgruntled buyer, yes, it was buyer beware, the buyer knew what they were doing, but you even want people who buy from you to get a good deal, because that's going to last you best, that's going to stand you in best stead throughout your whole life. I don't know if I've answered the question, but, you know, and the book that the viewers should read if they want to dive into it is Adam Grant's give and take and, you know, very briefly matches, givers and takers, and what you want to be is around givers and you want to be very careful around matches and takers.

I think, and for what it's worth, you don't want to write the wrongs of the world. You don't want to preach to anyone. You don't want to tell any. anybody what you think they are. You just want to organize yourself in such a way that you move yourself out of and you have less close contact with those people who are on the taking side of the spectrum and that you maximize your contact with the people on the giving side of the spectrum. And you try and be a giver yourself. It's time for a quick Advert Tillman. Here we go. Are you looking for a beautiful and efficient way to analyze stocks? Then please check out what my friends at Stratosphere are building. They have built a great tool to visualize data, to get ideas about ownership of stocks, and many more information that's helpful

in the analysis process. You can find that tool via the link below and feel free to sign up. It's free. Thank you for your attention. And now, Edward Tillman and the being in a network or givers, you might run into another problem because if you're surrounded by givers, especially in the investing world, and they give you good ideas, You also might have a problem, especially if I look at your portfolio, how it is constructed, and how much turnover you have. There is not a lot of this giving that is coming by people to you in the term of good ideas that you set into motion.

So how do you manage, like, or what is your process of if you get good ideas because you have a network of givers to destruct this ideas? There must be a huge destructive side maybe of you that isn't revealed because there's not a much turnover in your portfolio. You look at ideas and you must always find something, yeah, where you distract ideas. So how do you make this too? You destruct meaning discard. Discard, that you say it's not like that's an idea that's worth to my portfolio, even if you're a network of givers, because especially if you're an investing scene, there's a lot of idea sharing, giving ideas, good ideas. I mean, so I think that

So if you're a giver, I think that hopefully the kind of things that are coming into your life as a result of that are extremely broad. And I think that, you know, you can say that, so I don't know if you received our holiday card this year. It's an incredible design. And the woman who designs that is somebody who was a friend of William Green's, Cecilia Wong. But I try and invest in those relationships. I try to help somebody who's in my life in any way, shape or form that I can. And just to be clear, I think that she puts incredible effort into doing incredible things with those holiday card designs, for example. So the things that are coming back to me are kind of like all over your life.

It might be invitations to dinner. It might be club memberships. It might be. So I would say that investment ideas. is a very, very, very narrow proportion of that. I think I haven't really thought it through, but the world of investment ideas and investment ideas coming at you is so noisy

that I'm not sure that I, in my idea environment, want to pay too close attention to that. And just to give you one of many possible reasons why is that Nassim Taleb and Fooled by Randomness talks about how our wiring is such that when we're winning, when we're finding the berries on the bush, there's all sorts of chemicals that are released that give us, you know, he talks about how a trader who's winning in the markets was kind of like, will hold himself differently, will feel better about himself, and we'll talk

more. So I think that, for example, in an environment that we've had over the last three or four years, you get a lot of people who feel powerfully motivated to talk about what they think are really, really good investment ideas, and especially to talk to their friends, to bring them to conferences, to send them to write them up. And so I think that you have to be really, really careful. We've just been through an environment where a lot of supposedly great ideas were being shared in one way or another. So I don't think there's such a direct link between, being a giver and say the quality of the ideas in one's portfolio. And Tillman, I actually, it's interesting because I, I don't know what to do about it.

You can type pretty much any company's name where I feel like you can type any company's name into either Apple Podcasts or into YouTube. And, you know, there'll be endless videos that you can watch of. Some of them are just people talking about the idea and some of them are people who are doing some really valuable research and analysis. So, but simply the fact that if you're kind of engaging in reciprocation, if you're trying to be a giver in the world, yes, you're going to hear about more stuff, but I don't think that that necessarily increases the quality, actually. And there's another phenomenon that if, you know, those ideas might be selecting me. And Warren has this idea that you could be in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.

but if you're willing to write insurance, those insurance opportunities will find you. And the ones that find you are not good insurance opportunities. They're actually badly priced. And so I'm trying to make a distinction in my mind, not just around investment ideas, but around people. Did they find me? Did they seek me out and target me? Or did I seek them out? And so I think it's always interesting to see what's coming in.

but to stop and to say, what am I doing outbound? What are the filters that I'm using to go find outbound stuff is really, really important? And I think that if I, and then we go into, I mean, I have a certain set of relationships and there is a bias, I think, in me and towards anybody to be more interested in the ideas that my friends have than the ideas that just come in through the email inbox, for example. I find it interesting that the ideas that friends of mine who I respect very highly are ones that I could never find a way to put them into my portfolio. I mean, I'll just give three that are public knowledge. So Monash is very interested in Turkey and I don't think there's any way that I could convince myself that I wanted to put any portion of my own, our investors' money into Turkey.

And then we go to some of these tech stocks that were, you know, in the last couple of years at Value X, pretty much, a lot of the presentations were about these high-flying companies with huge revenue growth, but not much earnings and supposedly good customer economics. And I could never have put those into my portfolio either. So I was on the front row of many things that I just couldn't put in because I had. had a different filter. I think that what's interesting is that I just updated one of my screens and I can go into the details of what I did on the screen and I suddenly found a whole bunch of companies I hadn't really looked at before that are actually super interesting. And you're basically getting the benefit of what I'm writing in my annual letter right now. So if you like, I can dive into it now. So the problem with screens is that what you're screening for can be manipulated.

Many of the criteria that you would screen for in a capital IQ or in Bloomberg, if you'd sort of screen for profit margins or operating profits or earnings growth, those are all numbers that you can't necessarily have the same different companies. There's a broad latitude within the accounting rules as how you measure those things. So why would you look for a company that has, say, high profit margins? And there's this phenomenon that actually some of the most interesting companies deliberately have low profit margins, but you cannot compare some companies that have low profit margins because they're just badly run versus some companies that have low profit margins because they're doing huge investment. So one of the ways that I

realize that I could get around that or a way to deal with that is to look for companies or look for criteria that are very hard to manipulate where there's no latitude. So I think that of all the income line numbers, revenues can be manipulated. But over a long period of time, revenues, you actually have to have money flowing into the company. And that is the lifeblood. if any company is the revenue is flowing in. So another number that is very, very hard to manipulate is the outstanding share count. And so you have some companies where the share count is constantly rising. And of course, the cannibals, the companies whose share count is constantly falling is

absolutely fascinating. I don't think that those of us who don't run companies understand the extraordinary discipline that is required, not just in the one individual, maybe the same. CEO, but also in the board and the various people who have to approve the share re-purchases, it's not an easy thing to just get a declining share count is something that I believe is extraordinarily difficult. What I realized was that, you know, so how do you find the companies? I think that what we've learned over the last three or four or five years is that you have companies that are growing an awful lot, but if they're relying for that,

growth to, quote, build out their infrastructure by bringing money in from the capital markets and suddenly that money gets shut off and then they can't invest in that building out that infrastructure. And then actually it turns out that they weren't investing in building our infrastructure. Actually, the money from the capital markets was subsidizing operating losses. And that, again, is not an easy or clear distinction to make. Even if you're internal if you're internal management and accounting, is this expenditure building out our infrastructure or is it funding operating losses? Not easy to tell which way you categorize it. Bottom line is, rather than looking for companies that have successfully reduced their share count,

why not look for companies that are likely to be ones through sales growth or growth in sales per share have not had to increase their share count? which is a subtle distinction. So basically, rather than looking for companies that had decreased their share count by consistent amount over decades or over a period of years, I said, okay, leave that alone and look more for sales growth so that somehow what they're doing inside is turning into sales growth. That is an outbound approach. And I think that, so I, and that's fascinating for me, and actually that only happened on Friday. Why did it happen? I don't remember. It was something that I was watching, something I was looking at that made me say, wait a second.

And the point is this, you want internally funded growth ideally, because internally funded growth can continue even when the capital markets are closed, when the capital markets change their mind about your business. And externally funded growth, you're very reliant on the capital markets. And you get this horrible cycle where you need to raise money. So you figure out what the capital market is going to get excited about. and you start managing to that and doing that. So that was an interesting distinction for me, but that's all outbound. It's coming from me, and it's a filter of framework that I'm placing on the data,

and I'm saying what data matches that. My, I love talking about Turkey to my friend Monash. I love talking to my value ex-mates about these high-flying SaaS and other businesses. In my case, and certainly giving to the, world means that there are more of those opportunities, but I think it would be a big mistake for me to actually put those ideas into my portfolio. I don't think that's the right way to manage money. I think I'm fascinated by the fact that my portfolio turnover was solo last year. I think I did one trade. And I'm literally getting contents of my letter, Tillman. I think that there

are a couple of explanations. One is that having lived through multiple crises and having a healthy awareness of what a crisis looks and feels like and how the world, my own perception of the world changes radically. I've been very careful to own businesses that would allow me to survive the worst storm, if you like. And so I'm actually happy with the businesses that we're invested in, and they're businesses that can survive some pretty bad storms, perhaps not asteroids hitting the Earth in great number, not an extinction event like that of the dinosaurs, but some pretty bad events. But the other thing, which is kind of something to have enormous respect for, is that I have no doubt that we are going through one of the great historical

changes in the history of the world. We're living through it. And this is in a certain way a bigger change than what happened with the fall of the Berlin Wall, for example, which happened at least in my lifetime, maybe even in your lifetime, Tillman. Or, you know, we think about World War II, enormous changes that happened after World War II. But I think that we have to probably go back a century or more to find as big changes. It's kind of like of the French revolution type of changes. And in such an environment to stop and look and try and understand what is going on and to pay close attention, don't make any big moves if you don't have to is kind of where I'm at. There was a long, long rambling, but it was in response just to bring

the reader or the listener back. I felt like you, Tillman, you had this approach to me of saying, well, how does it work that you're a giver and you must receive a lot of inbound investment ideas, but you haven't implemented any of them in your portfolio? Answer being giving gives a lot of good results in your life. Probably you don't want to, you know, the noise that comes through giving from investment ideas coming in is not necessarily a place where you actually want to act on the abundance that giving creates. And then I talked a little bit about kind of like my filters to look for ideas but what drives you to set up this filters or this this lines what is the what are the trigger points sometimes to set these filters

or lines so first of all I think about Turkey for instance I so first of why I love playing well it's you mean setting up setting up screens for or or why I kind of think the discussion with like an example of Turkey having a discussion with Monash about Turkey, enjoying the intellectual exchange and enjoying the play about thinking about the scenarios, thinking about the country, but then finally saying, no, I can't. Yeah, so I'll be visiting Turkey later this year and we'll be visiting some of those companies and I'm super excited to visit and learn and look. And I cannot, so, you know, I used to own Wells Fargo in the portfolio. And through Debbie Bassanick, I met somebody who was a trust

officer at Wells Fargo. She was one data point, lovely lady. I remember talking to her at the Berkshire meeting and she said, you know, I'm having a hard time at Wells Fargo because all they want to do is make me sell. And I'm not a sales type. I'm a really good trust officer, but I'm not a selling type. That's not what I do. And it got so bad for her that she decided to leave the company. That was such a kind of a significant data point. Now, it was only one. And it was only one and so it was not statistically significant. I don't believe. But I regret that I didn't take that data point into account in my investment decision making. And I didn't at least use it as a reason to drill down and drill further. So I think that personal data points

are really, really important and can lead us to something. And I have, I cannot tell whether my data points around Turkey are just my personal experience or whether they're representative of something bigger and more important. And it's tied up with Turkey's relationship, tortured relationship to Israel. Turkey used to have a very, very close military relationship with Israel and a very, very good kind of like under the radar alliance. And many Israelis used to go on holiday in Turkey, I think many to still do. But a new kind of politics emerged with Erdogan, which is kind of like this authoritarian populism in which he kind of appealed to the Islamic base of the country. And I think that one can say that control of the country,

which used to be very firmly with the military, is now with this kind of populist politician. My experience of Western Turkey visiting Istanbul is it feels extraordinarily European and the Turks that I know in Istanbul are Europeans. I mean, could be comfortable in any European city. But I have not been to Ankara or to Eastern Turkey, but that is a very, very different region, I believe, with very, very different people. And Erdogan has found a way to unite the country or to govern a country, country that has these incredibly diverse populations. During this whole sort of like

unfolding of Turkey and move away from the Turkish army, my uncle invested in real estate in the southwest of Turkey, which is a very, very beautiful area. The name escapes me and ended up losing most of his investment because it turned out that owning property in Turkey as a non-Turk, there were all sorts of ways in which the local system and entrepreneurs who understood the local system could pull the bull over the eyes of foreign investors. And so it was not a happy place to be a direct investor in real estate in Turkey, unlike, for example, Switzerland, where I think that, you know, I think there are many, many people around the world who will invest in Swiss real estate because they know

they're going to get treated exactly the same as a local. So when I look at both, you know, that sort of macro political picture and I look at the micro, I see a country with a lot of quirks that I don't understand and that where I feel like the probability that I'll be mugged on a street corner is extremely high and leads me to just go, I don't want to participate and play. There was a point at which Turkey's diplomatic relationship to Israel was ruptured in a way that from the Israeli perspective felt very unfair, but from the perspective of Erdogan, I think it was very successful in gaining popularity with the Muslim population.

And so I don't really want to mix myself into that kind of dynamic. Having said that, the people that Monash is invested with appear to be utterly brilliant business people who know what they're doing, who have all the attributes that one would want to have. But I even think, you know, is this kind of superstitious that that will all work out unless Guy Speer invests. And the minute Guy Speer events invests, the nature of the world would change. And but then I would just go to somewhere even more general, which is, what's my end point?

Where do I want to end up in 20 years time? And I hate to say it, but Turkish companies are not on my wish list for where I want to end up. I think of the companies in Switzerland that I admire like Sika or Schindler or Nestle and I think that I've chosen to live in Switzerland and the investments that I want to make should be consistent with a life based in Switzerland. And so, for example, you could, there are, it's perfectly possible that the energy exchange, that the fund owns in India would end up becoming part of a global conglomerate of energy exchanges. So that's an industry which could easily become, that specific company in India could

become a part of a global network, perhaps even managed out of Switzerland or managed out of New York. But if you're looking at small or microcap companies in Turkey, it will never fit into that. I'm playing quite a lot of chess these days. People have found me. I'm not very good, actually. I'm embarrassed that my rating's gone from like 400 to 800 and people who know chess will know that that's not a very high rating. But there's a concept in chess about developing your pieces harmoniously with each other. You can make moves which on their own would be you've developed the knight. You've developed the bishop. But how does the knight in the place where you've put it work with your other pieces and are they supporting each other?

or do they not support each other? And sometimes I make moves in a game and chess where I strongly believe that the pieces are supporting each other as I make the moves and then I get to a point in the game against a stronger opponent and I just get so frustrated because none of my pieces are helping each other out. And so it's hard for me to see how, I mean, interestingly enough, the analogy that I've made with Turkey where I did make an investment was this condensed milk company in the Philippines. But interestingly enough, that a company called Alaska Milk, they ended up getting sold by the family that control them to surprise, surprise a Dutch company.

So they got pulled into the global economic system. And the idea of investing ahead of the global economic system, pulling your company in or when I invested in Krizzle, well, they were already part owned by Standard and Pauls. And then over the course of my investment, Standard and Pauls took more and more of the company. But how did I do? You did well. And you explained a bit how you set lines, and I also want to set a line now because I want to finish the first part of the interview, but also want to set a cliffhanger to the second part of our interview where we also discuss the topic of lines, setting lines a bit. So it will come next week.

And thank you for listening till now and see you in the next interview with Guy.