Good News York by Growth Mode Content - GNY EP.58 | Feat. Concert Promoter & Ithaca Local, Dan Smalls!

Episode Date: June 19, 2025

Journey of a Premier Concert Promoter: A Deep Dive with Dan Smalls In episode 58 of Good News York, host Mike Brindisi sits down with Dan Smalls, a top concert promoter from DSP Shows. Through an engaging conversation, Dan shares his journey from the Catskills to Cornell, and eventually becoming a major promoter in New York State and beyond. They discuss the dynamics of the music industry, from booking early gigs with Blues Traveler and Pearl Jam to navigating the complexities of modern concert promotion. Dan emphasizes the importance of relationships in his business, balancing work and family life, and the heartfelt efforts to give back to the community. The episode also highlights the growth of DSP Shows and the personal experiences that have shaped Dan's career. This inspiring conversation offers a behind-the-scenes look at the world of concert promotion and the passion that drives its success. 00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Shoutout 01:20 Guest Introduction: Dan Smalls 03:01 Dan Smalls' Early Career and Influences 12:55 Building DSP Shows and Industry Challenges 16:14 Reviving Ithaca's Music Scene 26:06 The Evolution of Concert Promotion 30:25 Industry Insights and Personal Reflections 32:36 The Realities of Concert Promotion 34:04 Building Relationships in the Music Industry 37:55 Balancing Family and Career 42:39 Future Aspirations and Community Impact 48:05 Concluding Thoughts and Gratitude

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All right, welcome to Good News, York. Episode 58. I am Mike Brindisi on this episode of Good News, York. Sponsored by Ads on the Go. Get Ads on the Go.com. Shout out to Zach. Primo, the man out there in the box truck. As you can see, I'm flying solo today.

Matt's out. I don't know, rummaging through dumpsters looking for old electronics. And I am here with my man, Danny Tripote, behind the board. I'm going to have a chance today to sit down with Dan Smalls of Dan Smalls presents or DSP shows. I live in Ithaca, New York. Dan Smalls, the premier promoter in that area, but also has grown so much that he's now one of the premier promoters all over New York State, even in Massachusetts. We're going to talk all about his journey to where he's gotten and much, much more about the music business and other things as well. So stay with us.

when we come back, Dan Small's DSP shows right here on Good News York. Welcome back to Good News York, episode 58 brought to you by Ads on the Go, get ads on the go.com. I'm Mike Brindisi here with a very special guest, a friend of mine, one of the biggest concert promoters in New York, maybe even the Northeast. Dan Smalls from DSP shows or Dan Smalls presents. Dan, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's my pleasure to be here.

Always loves to talk to my brethren in the industry, as you say. I appreciate that. You look great. Very rock star of you to be in a hotel while you're doing your interview. I love that. It is family time for sure and business time at the same time. So thanks for making it happen this way. Yeah, man.

Of course. And I mean, I think that's, you know, being a concert promoter allows you as busy as you always are. I do find that it does allow you to also kind of have that work-life balance, right? You know, you aren't really missing any of your kids' games and things of that nature, I assume. Yeah, I've had to earn it for sure. You know, as we've grown, we've added wonderful staff, and it's really allowed me to create a company that supports the kind of lifestyle that I want to have, that my people want to have.

And, you know, it's, yeah, we worked hard for this, for sure. But your boys only 17 once and getting recruited to college once. So you might as well try to be there for every possible moment. And that's what I'm doing. That's where we are now. We're at a baseball tournament, but happy to make the time between games to wrap. Wow.

That means a lot, man. And yeah, there's nothing more important, nothing better than being a dad. And, you know, I've had a front row seat to watch you grow right before my eyes. You know, I know, I think it was 2008, you know, all of a sudden, Dan Smalls was on the scene. And, I mean, you grew from your inception. It was just rapid. And, you know, and now I see, you know, I watched when you were adding more employees

and moving into new spaces. I remember meeting with you when you were working out of your, you know, apartment downtown. And I'm just so happy for you. I know you started in 2008. You would come from the Catskills. I want to talk about a little bit how this all came about. You came from the Catskills up to Cornell, correct? Yeah, I mean, it's a really long story that we can do a short version of.

But I came to college in 1988, if you could believe it, and came to Cornell and didn't have a real plan. I was studying engineering because I was good at math and science, although high school came easy to me. And they said, go be an engineer. But I picked Cornell because it had other options in case I was wrong. And on my second or third night, I heard some music coming out of a fraternity across the street and go over there. and this band just out of high school called Blues Travelers playing. And next thing I know I'm hanging out with them, we made friends. I started helping them get more shows up this way.

And through them, we met the spin doctors. And they were coming to town. And I got this reputation as the guy to call when you want to, you know, no one knew what a jam band was at that point. There was still the Grateful Dead touring and all that kind of stuff. But the jam band scene wasn't really a thing. So that's kind of how it all started. And, you know, we did a big benefit show for the,

the Finger Lakes Land Trust, which has just gotten going with Blues Traveler and Spin Doctors at the Bailey Hall before it was redone and sold it out and made some money. And it's a very funny story. I was left with a few thousand bucks in cash and I thought I'd be a good kid and went to the Bursar's office and tried to pay down my bills so my parents would be surprised. And they summarily sent me packing with my cash saying, where's you have this? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Damn, you know, get the hell out of here. So, so that happened and I quickly learned that going from a 4.0 high school to a 1.9 first semester wasn't going to work. I got to get out of

engineering, moved into business management marketing. And that's where it started. And then I wound up meeting John Peterson at the Haunt, which was the club in town at the time on Green Street still. And he was putting on the best blues and reggae shows that had ever, you know, I hadn't seen in my life. I was down there. And one night I'd see Buddy Guy and then Albert Collins and all those alligator bands with the same backing band and just another smoking guitar player in front of every week. It was just life-changing for me to go to work for him and start learning the business. And he let me take chances. He believed in me when I told him the book Pearl Jam or whenever on a Monday night for 200 bucks or $300,000, we paid him. It was a great time, you know.

The industry was wide open, I think. You know, music was changing. And I was just really, really lucky to work with him at that point. And the big thing, fame, the summer of my sophomore junior year. I can't remember which. And I saw they were doing a music festival with all these bands. And I should back up and say, you know, while I was working at the hot fish came. And the first time they played, three people came to see them. You know, Trey called us. Like we're for killing in Vermont. And we got to come down for three nights like we do here. And they came and there was three people. And the next night, there was eight people. And I think we put a local band on. And they did like 40 or something. So, you know, they were growing at the same time. It was really quite entertaining to watch.

and some of my best friends in the biz to this day, you know. So that happened. But that summer came along and I saw they were doing a music festival down in Parksville, New York, of all places. It was where Route 17 had a stoplight. Yeah. You know, it's no longer there. But right off that stoplight, two miles was this place called Arrowhead Ranch.

And I found out about it. I drove down there, met with the guy in charge, talked my way into a job. Turned out that his partner was David Graham and all of his friends from NYU. And David's dad was Bill Graham, the famous rock impresari. concert promoter, you know, Fillmore East, Fillmore West, whatever, whatever. So I'm down there working for the summer

and one of the first days, the sheriff comes to try to shut the whole thing down. And I know the guy since I'm four years old. Joe, how are he? Sheriff Joe. And Bill's watching the whole thing that weekend, you know. Weekend comes to an end. And I should back up and say,

those guys were wonderful, but they were older than me. And they were doing more drugs than I would do. Sure. And so Bill, takes the dinner and he says, Cornell, come here. And he takes me to the bar. He's like, my kids are all fuck-ups. I want you to come work for me when you grow up and I'm like, oh my God, okay, don't go. And crazy, right? I mean, small. The irony is he, when he escaped Germany and

came over on a boat and was in Brooklyn, he would come up and spend summers in the Capskills, right near I grew up near Monticello. And he worked at the Concord Hotel. So we shared this, like, connection to where we were from it. So I came back to college thinking my life was set and all my friends were interviewing for jobs and I'm like laughing in their face. And Bill gets in a helicopter about a month before I graduated Cornell and crashed on the way to a Cui Lewis show in San Francisco and passed away tragically. And that was it for my job up there. You know, so it was a it was a restart. Let's just put it that way. So I stayed in Ethica for another year or two year and a half, help with the haunt. And then because of my connection with,

with Spin Doctors and Blues Traveler. I got offered a job in New York at Columbia Epic Records. And it was NNR, it was kind of cool. But to me, once I got there, it was the era of just shipping tons of records and bean counting and way more corporate than I was really felt was my style, you know. So the next phase was the, I like to call it the Goodwill Hunting Phase. I met met a girl, I had to see about a girl and went to Boston and talked to my way into another job. And it's funny how you just meet people and that's your thing like your thing like a And through the guys that I worked with in this job booking a college band called Angry Salad of all things, you wouldn't believe they had a, you know, they eventually got signed and had a decent hit or whatever in that era. But through that, my met a guy named Dave Whirlin, who was a promoter, and he had a ton of fish history as well.

This company was called Great Northeast. And he and I, I worked with him when we presented the first five or six of fishes camping festivals for the weekend, starting in Clipper Ball, Great Wet, Lemon Wheel, got very, very lucky to be a part of those. They were just life-changing events. There were no festivals in the U.S. in 1996. No. And so that experience was like insane. You can come back and question any of this, but I'm going to get through to Ithaca. No, keep going, man.

This is great. Yeah, yeah. So that happened. And we worked together and it was great. But then the industry roll-up happened right around, you know, 1999, when SFX, Bob Sillerman bought Delsner-Slaider, and he bought Bill Graham Presents. and he bought the guys in Colorado and Chicago and everyone. He rolled it up at the X-Efx, which became Clear Channel,

which is now Live Nation, right? So that was the beginning of the consolidation of the music industry. And independent promoters like, you know, Great Northeast, we didn't just do the fish festivals. We did about, I don't know, 200 or so shows a year at the Middle East in Boston. But we were more like the guys who booked Portland, Maine, and, you know, Portsman, New Hampshire and Burlington, Vermont. We were the surrounding cities with the same act.

So we did a lot of shows that way, but the roll-up left independent promoters out in the cold for the most part. We were nervous. Agents were afraid of what Live Nation was going to become. And it was a really good time to take a break. So that's when I wound up back in the Catskills to help get Bethelwood started. And at the same time, I had grown up there, you know, help, we helped get Bethel Woods, the guy that bought the Woodstock site built this beautiful place. And around the same time, my dad was, was, you know, ill. and I helped run his business once Bethelwoods was up and running and thought I could get out of the music biz.

I thought it was it for me and helped him with that, helped him sell it. And, you know, in a similar Goodwill Hunting way I visited Ithaca and met my wife on one of those trips. So we sold the biz and I moved up there without a prayer of what I was going to do next, thought I was done with music. But like you said, right around 2005, 6, the state theater was in peril. It was really close to closing. They had brought in an executive director who really tried to make it into like a cultural mecca, like doing the kind of things Cornell could do with a $10 ticket with a $60 ticket. Yeah.

It ran the debt through the roof in one year, you know. So I met the executive director of historic I think and said, I can fix this, I think. Give me a shot. And we went in and it was a mess and the debt was huge. And I quickly saw they were not able to escrow money and it covered bills. and pay, it was a really hard time. So I met some local folks, business people. We met, we met with the city, we met with all kinds of things. And we, we come up with a very creative deal with the IURA helping and stuff to. The Clinton House was part of it and it spun

historic Ethica into their own thing and state theater of Ithaca Inc. into its own thing. And we took it over as a new not for profit running just the theater. And for a year and half, I did my job booking it and Doug Levine's job of running it. And I realized very quickly I could not do both. So I was the guy that said, hey, let's give Doug a shot, you know, because the way buildings like that make sense is you start by raising tons of sponsorship and then you get good at raising funds to do bigger projects. And Doug was working at the Chamber of Commerce as the membership guy. I'm like, he knows everybody. He'll be able to bring in enough money. And it felt like a real symbiotic thing. And it's taken a long time to become that. But now to bring it full

circle, it's become that for sure in Ithaca. But in the year since 2007, when I formed DSP until now, you know, I've grown, like you said, tremendously. It's been all... You're listening to a podcast right now. Driving, working out, walking the dog. If you're into podcasts, chances are you have something to say too. With RSS.com, starting your own is free and easy. Upload an episode and we distribute it to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon music and hundreds more. Track your listeners, see where they're from, and start earning from ads like this, even with just 10 listeners a month. If you've been thinking about starting a podcast, this is your sign. Start free at RSS.com.

You're listening to a podcast right now, driving, working out, walking the dog. If you're in a podcast, chances are you have something to say too. With RSS.com, starting your own podcast is free and easy. Upload an episode and we distribute it to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, and more. Track your listeners, see where they're from, and start earning from ads just like this. If you've been thinking about starting a podcast, this is your sign. Start your new podcast for free today at RSS.com. Awesome.

I started by growing too fast and then pulled back and it was just me and then I wound up having a friend who was sort of like the me of Western Massachusetts working for a guy he didn't like his name was John Sanders. And after several years of trying to convince him, John finally said, I can't work for this guy anymore. I'm in. Let's do it. And I gave him a very creative way to become a part of the company.

And we worked that out together. And now we're eight people and 69 shows in 2008, 812 shows last year. My God. I remember when you and John teamed up, and I remember kind of the, from my point of view, the explosion of DSP shows for, there. Not that it wasn't, you know, you were doing just fine before that, but that's when it went to the next tier for sure.

Yeah, we had opportunities in Massachusetts that came with him. And the minute he left working for someone that the industry as a whole had, you know, I don't talk bad about folks, but they didn't enjoy working with him the way they enjoy working with John and I. Like, I've always been a promoter who will go the extra mile. I'd rather put more catering in your room and spend a few extra dollars to have a better relationship. I mean, I know these touring acts live on a bus. and they sleep while they're driving and they come into these dingy basements and that's their house. Yeah. So why not try to make it a little better for them? Absolutely. And that's been our mentality. And I think our growth has happened because we treated people better. And they've said, hey, when we go to the Northeast, we want to play for these guys.

Yeah. And that's the mentality. You treat people better and you'll let money follow. Don't let be a goal, you know. You know what? You're so right because, you know, I tell people all the time that, you know, any success. I've had in my life is by building relationships. And a lot of those were relationships that were built because they were just relationships

and, you know, ended up coming full circle later on where it ended up helping me in business, you know, but they were meant as just relationships to begin with. And you made so many relationships along the way. And it's been so key for you. And I knew that kind of your mantra when you had started out was that you wanted to go the extra mile to do what other promoters weren't doing, which was really being for the artist. And as someone, you know, I had my band and you and I have worked together. I can attest that you always took care of me and my band and any artists that I know that

has worked with you. So it's, uh, I mean, it's how it works. I mean, look, I would not have been able to save the state theater if I didn't know agents from years ago. And those couple of years that I took away, they all moved up, you know, when I called I'm like, holy shit, Dan, where have you been? What have you been doing? And we have that great conversation.

I'm like, hey, I got this really righteous thing. I've saved this awesome building. And I still remember 2008 when I got Lyle to come with John Hyatt and Lyle Lovitz on stage. And, you know, he gave this whole speech about how saving buildings like this is something that should be done. There's too many that are 7-Elevens. And there I was in the back of the thing with the tear coming down in my eye, you know, right on, dude. Thank you for noticing because it's a really cool thing, you know. Yeah, man.

What a journey? You're right. What a journey. I, you know, I moved Ithaca from the Mohawk Valley in 2005, actually, right around the same time. And at the time, long story short, I knew I needed to get out of there. I couldn't afford to live in New York or L.A. I knew I needed to be somewhere where there was some sort of creative scene in music and comedy. And, you know, a buddy of mine lived in Ithaca and said, you got to come here.

Like, just live here for a couple years and go to the city. It's so cultured. You know, there's a ton of culture. There's a huge music scene. And I was pleasantly surprised to know that this person was so right. And you're responsible for a lot of that. I know that now. But before you, you know, on your way to Ithaca, from your perspective, was Ithaca known that way for you before you got in there?

It wasn't when I was here. It was when I was there in college, for sure. I mean, John had built that and people before him at the North 40 and places like that where the, you know, Buffalo and bands like in Orleans were playing around town in the 70s and stuff. So it had a great scene, the Rongo, you know, places. Yeah. Amazing. Like people would drive those 10 miles and drink all night and then drive back to college.

Oh, yeah. You know, it's just different times for sure. So and the reputation, like I give John Peterson a lot of credit. And he and I are friends to this day. He has a house now up in near Shell Drake up that way and summers comes up in visits and we're still friends. But he taught me to this. He let me lose money. and, you know, drain my bank account and live off of sack of potatoes from the farmer's market

for a couple of weeks. Yeah, but he taught me a lot about the biz. Like, I grew up in a musical family for sure. My dad, no one played, but they listened to a lot of great music. My dad was, like, playing Mississippi John Hurd and, you know, was friends with Arlo Guthrie for a minute in the back in the 60s in the village and stuff. So it was kind of cool to bring them back together. But anyway, long story short, it was just, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, uh,

it's relationship case. Like you said, that's where this whole thing started, and I think that's how you continue to get it. I think it's a special place. I tell people that all the time. And you're talking about John and how he got you started. You know, living in Ithaca, I heard all those stories about these magical nights at the haunt.

I actually remember being at a reggae night somewhere. And the band actually sang a song. I don't know if they wrote it or they were covering it, about a night where a band came and played in Ithaca. The song is about that night. And, you know, there's the story of obviously John Popper and Blues Traveler playing there. And now, is this true? I heard Pearl Jam had played there.

This was right before they broke out. And they played on like a Tuesday night and there was barely anybody there. It was a Monday night, actually. It was Don Mueller called us. And Don was a huge agent at the time. They were opening for the chili peppers and they had an off night. And they needed a few hundred bucks to cover gas. And they, you know, they're.

sound check was, you know, messy and whatever. And then and then the show started and it was just awesome. It was huge. And the guys, I mean, they were so poor at the time that Eddie's pants were being held up with duct tape tied in the knot. You know what I mean? It was that bad. And it was cool.

And I was like, they started playing. And I was like, whoa, stop. Let me call everyone I know. Yeah. You know. Well, we went up having like, I think 50 people maybe when they played and it was legendary. It was so loud and so cool.

And those dudes were great. And then we sat at the bar and J. G. G. Geremeister shots for, you know, until it was way too late. You know, I'm so envious to you. It was a good. Yeah, I'm so envious to you in that way because I always said one thing I can't say I've done is, you know, I meet so many people that go, oh, dude, I saw, you know, Pearl Jam on a Monday night before they were big or I saw John Mayer in Boston before he blew up. That's never happened to me. And I'm assuming you, you've probably experienced that quite a bit, especially back then.

And people got to remember in the early 90s, the whole grunge invasion, the reason you were calling all your buddies was probably because this was a sound that wasn't really popular at the time. You're like, what the fuck is this? And I got to get people down here. So you probably experienced that quite a bit, I'm assuming in the 90s especially. There were so many bands that played there that had no business playing there. But then it was the second wave of it that was really kind of cool, too. We became established as a place like, you know, throwing muses in belly with Tanya, Don. Donley came through and Soul Asylum came through.

It was that kind of band that was touring. And they were probably were doing between 5 and 700, maybe 1,000 in New York City, but that was worth 350 upstate. You know, and that's how it worked. And I knew we were centrally located between, you know, Toronto and Buffalo and New York and Philly and Boston. We were right in the middle. So if you need it off night, I'm your guy, you know. And look, the same thing happened with reinvigorating the state.

I called, you know, Frank Riley at High Road and I called CIA and William Morris. I'm like, I'll be your Monday night guy, you know, you need that villain. I promise you, this town is starved and we will do okay. It might not last forever, but let's start that way. And I gave him way more money than I had to my name to do, you know, three girls in their buddy, which was Emmy Lou Harris, Sean Colbin, Patty Griffin and Buddy Miller. And we did that on a Monday night and sold it out. And I called John Prine's agent. And I, you know, people I'd work with for years and years and years and said come on your Monday like John doesn't work on Monday's like okay the first one time you want to do a Wednesday before you're Friday Saturday I'll be your guy for that you know so um I don't know

I took a lot of risk early on when I started the company I did I didn't have the money to liquid you know to to to do it but I got very lucky I booked John and I booked three girls and I booked you know even bands like stars who were huge at the time in the indie scene I went up to Cornell and got them the partner with me and we gave a discount to kids like I was I was really creative in how I got going in the early days. And it worked out, but the town was also star for music. Like you said, it was huge in the 70s, 80s, 90s, and there was a little bit of a down period where the state theater went through some issues and the guys from Syracuse

weren't coming down anymore or doing one or two shows a year. And I'm like, that's not enough. You know, I, so I might have upset a few folks by getting started, but it's not like I was trying to take away someone's business. It was, okay, I'm going to save this building. And then I'm going to be aggressive at saying Ithaca is a better place to play than some other markets for a while. And that's how we proved it. And that's how the relationships got it off the ground. And we do shows in Syracuse and Rochester and Buffalo, wherever. We book rooms

there now. But, you know, there's always home. It's close to home. I spent many a night suffering trying to get that building off the ground again. And I think, like you said, it was relationship-based. But it was also a town that had once been strong. Tons of musicians live there and still do. Yeah. But it took a while to sort of resurrect that, you know, and I'm glad that it's there again. You know, I think there's watching bands like ex-ambassadors come along and pop out of Ithaca. That was all testament to the work we did in 2002, three, four, five to save this building and, and have them have that success, you know? Yeah, man. Absolutely. And from my point of view, again, what you've done for the scene in Ithaca.

And, you know, now the whole region and then some, I'm so appreciative. And, you know, the business has changed so much. But also, you know, I remember going to the first, you know, my first couple of state theater shows. And like you said, it was a Monday or Tuesday. And I had friends that would be like, why are they doing shows on Monday or Tuesday? And I had to explain, you got to understand. They do the big markets on the weekends.

But I've noticed, man, especially since the pandemic, correct me if I'm wrong, dude, I've been seeing, I've been seeing Friday night, Saturday night shows, big, big acts. And I saw Nate Bargazzi. I've, you know, are you, you think that's a product of, of the name you've built and the trust that you've built that now they're saying, hey, because the market hasn't really changed. It's still the same size. How are you able to now get them on these, on these hotter nights? Yeah, I think that's, it's helped. I mean, thank you for saying that. You know, I mean it. I try to, I try to live a humble life for sure, but we worked hard to, or establish it. And, and look, we're only as good as our results.

If people weren't coming to the shows, they'd find other markets. There's, you know, in secondary slash perciary markets, which I think it might be. Sure. You know, there's seven offers for every date. So you have to, you know, before an agent to sip through. And, you know, I've developed those relationships with agents, but also managers of these acts. And they know, you know, like if we're sold out with the Indigo girls early on, I'm not just going to get them what's on their rider.

I'm going to call the manager in Atlanta. and say, hey, what are they into right now? Like, oh, Amy's reading about Civil War generals and boom, I'm going to run over and buy a book on some crazy war general. Like the little things that you, when Lyle Lovett first came, Shinerbach wasn't sold in New York. I called my friend in Austin and said, send me a 12-pack, please, and, you know, wrap it really well.

And he showed up, and that was in his dressing room. And he's like, small, you son of a bitch, you know, because we've known each other forever. Like, I've known him since I did my shows with him in Portland and Burlington and wherever else we did. So it's the little, little things that people remember. 100%. Most guys are too caught up in making the almighty dollar to really focus on that.

And I think that's what we've done differently. 100%. And those are two great examples of just going the extra mile. And like you said, when you were starting, you were finding creative ways to get artists there, you know, and thinking outside the box. And I know personally, and you know, obviously, how much the industry has changed in the last 10, 15 years.

even five years. So I'm going to assume, have you had to get a lot more creative these days with Axe because of the way the kind of the business models changed? You're listening to a podcast right now. Driving, working out, walking the dog. If you're into podcasts, chances are you have something to say too. With RSS.com, starting your own is free and easy. upload an episode and we distribute it to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, and hundreds more. Track your listeners, see where they're from, and start earning from ads like this, even with just 10 listeners a month. If you've been thinking about starting a podcast, this is your sign.

Start free at RSS.com. Look, Live Nation, A.G, they're national, multinational corporations, right? And they used to just buy national, they buy the whole. tour and stick it in amphitheaters. Then they'd buy the whole tour and stick it in, you know, 4,000 seat theaters. Now they're buying tours sometimes that fit in the state theater, you know. Nate Bargotti, for example, does all the shows with Outback presents, but I know those guys. And we called out back and said, hey, Nate's got to play the state. Let's do it, you know. So I'd rather take half of something than 100% of nothing. Right. So I go out and I've got good

relationships with those companies. I mean, it's, it's not like Live Nation hasn't made an offer yet. They like to buy people up. And we were, we were, we've been very lucky to be, you know, we don't really report to Polestar much anymore. But when we did and they told us how, you know, on their yearly ticket sales, we were ranked in the top 40 independent promoters in the world. The last time they did that in the fucking world. And I look, I sit in my house. And I'm like, what? The first time we were ranked 99, I think.

And it just kept moving up. And it was, it was insane. Like, because we, we just do so much volume based on ticket. It's not dollars. ticket sales, right? We move a lot of tickets at the lower level of stuff. So, you know, working with those companies will drive more business into a room like that. We have comedy, you know, a lot of the comedy tours are bought by the entire thing. Like we partner with Aegee, we partner with Live Nation, we partner with any of them, you know. It's, and it's a great way

to put more in the room. It's also a great way to not lose acts you have history with. You know, we used to do all the Ray LaMontaine shows around here. His last number of tours have been with Live Nation. So every once in a while we can buy one out, but sometimes, we get a little piece of one here and there. And same thing with Bob Dylan, you know, like they, he does most of his stuff with A.G. But his manager Kramer loves us and he always finds two or three markets to include us. And, you know, it's just it's, it's the little things like that. And that, like you said, that comes from relationships and reputation, but also being willing

to work with, you know, the parameters that have changed over these years. Because look, I say this a lot and it's changed over the years because my kid gets older and older, but their stockholders are Saudi princes and Wall Street. and mine is 17 years old went two for three today. Here you go. Yay, brain it. Yeah, well, listen,

and Live Nation's not buying Shinerbach and Civil War novels for their artists either. Let's be honest. No, that's amazing, man. And, you know, you and I kind of talked, and we'll talk about your son in a second. I want to talk about that.

But you know I've kind of talked off air before about, there's this kind of this myth with concert promoters, I think, where there's a couple things. One, they're always jerks, right? And I think a part of that is because, yeah, you're trying to talk to them when they're in the middle of their livelihood. And then number two, they've got such an easy job. You know, they book bands, they get to enjoy shows.

I would love for you to dispel both those rumors because I know that's not true. Well, I mean, look, some people might think I'm a jerk, but I'm being a jerk to respect the rules of the industry. I don't get to pick the opening acts for every show. I know most bands that are touring at the level that play the state, that manager manages someone else. and they're putting their act on that bill or a favor to someone else. And, you know, local musicians often think I'm a bad guy for that.

I mean, look, John Peterson was not loved. He ran the haunt. Yeah, okay? He is now, he's respecting, everybody puts him up on the wall. Sure. I'm that now. I'm probably not loved. And I'm okay with that because I look in the mirror every night

and I love the person I see because I know how I do business. I know how I treat people, and I could give a shit what anyone thinks about me. Good. Really. I, you know, I know what I'm doing to make this industry. I know the risks that I take on a daily basis. And sometimes I book shows I know we're going to lose just to have volume at the state.

I used to get upset when I lost $100 a show. Then I get upset when I lost $100,000 a show. There have been shows where we've lost $10,000. Now, you know, I know that I have to look at the whole year. You know, when you do $12 or $15 million in business in a year, you're going to have some really ugly nights. And if you look at them on a one-off basis, it sucks. But if you look at it like, okay, I did this show with this guy that I love and I've worked

with before and nobody came this time and we lost $60,000. I mean, it's a huge amount of money, but that's when the act, because they respect you, will give you most of that back. You know, you don't even have to ask. You know, they don't want to see you get hurt because they want to work with you, right? Yeah. So look, I could worry about what they think or I could just keep trying to do the right thing. And like, it was funny. I was at a party a couple weeks ago. And I hadn't seen Willie B. Brian Wilson in a long time. And he's an industry guy. He's a drummer. He's amazing. He's toured with all kinds of Jamie Liddle and all kinds of national tours. And he's the one guy who gets it because he's been out there doing it. You know what I mean? He's been on the road.

He knows how should he could be. He knows how promoters can have a hard time. And I love talking to that dude because it's he sees the picture, you know. And I don't get to share though. And I get to share that with you because, you know, we can. Yeah. You've been around that kind of stuff. For sure. You know, I don't have to defend what we do or who we do. I gamble. for your enjoyment. That's my job. I gamble for everyone else's enjoyment. And I'm, I'm pretty good at it because I've been doing it for 38 years. And I like the people that I work with. And I like the, you know, there's nothing better than standing in the wing. It's watching the act come on and the fans connect. And whether I've made money or loss,

whether there's 10 tickets, 100, 1,000, 10,000. That moment happens at every show. Because somebody's really psyched to be there. You know, and the fact that I can do that, it's really cool. And the fact that that's, you still get enjoyment out of that. That is even bigger, I think, because this business can really kind of ruin things for you sometimes. I want to be clear, by the way, I wasn't saying that people think you're an asshole. I meant like promoters. I hope you know that. I meant promoters across the point.

No, in general, you're right, though, because a lot of them, you know, are, you look at the fees on tickets in most places and you look at that stuff. And you just think that guys are trying to squeeze it out of you, you know, you go to the amphitheater and the beer's 18 bucks. I mean, fuck that. You know, you come to, you come to Omagang or Beacon Skip. And we're selling you a $8, $9, $16 ounce beer. Hell yeah, man. That's a going rate in a bar, you know? It's like, come on.

Yeah, man. How ridiculous can you get? How can you rip people off anymore? Like I said, I got to like the guy I see in the mirror every night. I love that. I love that dispels part one. I'm trying to remember the other part. I don't worry about it.

You dispelled it all. Do you think? I wanted to, I wanted to answer that part. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead. Yeah. What was the second part? I wish I remember.

No, it was just that like, you know, putting on a concert, it's all fun in games. Like, you just booked the band, then you sit back and watch the show. I mean, look, backstage is a dingy hole most of the time. The bands are not back there. It's not almost famous. There's no, you know, groupies, you know. There's no sex, drugs and rock and roll.

It's just a bunch of guys saying, what's the words to this song? So I don't fuck it up on stage. You know, no, it's rarely like that. But, I mean, look, the era's changed. Touring is where everyone makes their most money. They have these great buses. It's their home. It's way more.

comfortable. You know, I, I get it, you know, but I can't tell you how many times people ask, hey, can I meet the band? I get a backstage pass. I'm like, I almost want to give you a backstage pass. You get to come back to me like, this sucks. Yeah. This isn't fun. Where's the party? You're like, it's not. Or shit at shows, you know, I'm sitting in some dingy, musty room with a computer doing my work for the day. Exactly. If somebody walks by, it's on its way to the stage. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. To me, go ahead. I don't seek it out. I don't seek it out. You know, like, I, I, I, I've learned a long time ago. The most important thing you can do is turn the fan off on day, the fan inside of you,

because they're the same people. And maybe it's because I grew up with a dad who was a plumbing, heating, an air conditioning contractor, right? That guy's shit smells just as bad as yours, he used to say, right? And like, if you just treat people, they're people, and that's why I've had these relationships with them, you know, and that sticks in my head. I never really say it out loud. I'm not sure I should have heard, but it's funny.

It's funny. You know, they're who they are, and you just treat them with respect. And one of my best moments, I wanted to work with Ray Davies from the takes forever and ever and ever. And I finally got a show with them. And I stay away from backstage. I don't mean break games. And his wife comes up and says,

who's the promoter after the show? Right. Had such a good day. He wants to have a drink with the promoter. Who is it? I'm like, well, that's me. Let's go. You know,

I was super happy to get invited. Yeah. Back to that. You know, I don't expect it. I don't, you know. But, look, yeah, is it cool to have friends who are touring musicians? Sure. But they're people to me.

You know, they are who they are. And I'm lucky. I'm very lucky. But some of them, there's nothing. worse than meeting someone who's music you love and then having, they're having a bad day. Yeah. And it can change your whole opinion of them, you know. So I, I don't, I try to stay away from it so I can keep this, this image that got me

excited about this business. And I'm still excited about it this many years later, you know. And I love that, man. It's infectious. And, you know, you got me thinking, because I was going to ask you, you know, at your level, do you still? Because what you got me thinking about is here I am thinking, man, I got to talk to him about it must be a struggle now with how the industry's changed.

And I'm realizing actually it's a struggle for for labels and artists themselves. But the touring market is probably hotter than ever because that's how you make the money now. I guess A, would you agree with that? And then B, at your level as successful as you are, do you still have those nights where you kind of take a, maybe not take a bath? But you're like, yeah, this was not a good show. Oh, yeah, they happened all the time. I mean, I had one in the state theater, the spring. That was well into the five figures.

And it hurt. You know, it was not something we expected. But no, that is your dad on. That's how the industry is right now. And like I said, I have to look at the big picture. You can't look at, you know, my dad taught me a lot of things in life. And one was, you can't look at one job that he bid and lost on. You look at the whole year, you know, and you got to treat the losses like the wins. Like, even though we lost a ton of money on that show, I didn't cut the catering rider. I didn't ask them for a reduction. I didn't try to cut sound and lights. I said, we're going to put on a professional kick-ass show here. And so be it, you know. And that's how it goes. Sometimes

you win, sometimes you lose. And luckily, we're right, 85% of the time. And most of the losses are expected at the lower club level where you're building an act, you know. Absolutely. There's nothing makes me happier than like, you know, the first time I worked with the Abert brothers, you know, after I saw them at grassroots on the first show, wherever, they came to the state and three or four hundred people came and then 600 people came. Then they wrote, I in love and you and all the grizzled hippies out by the bus turned into 12 year old girls. And then they sold out the state theater. It's just one something let's do another and now we do 4,000 a night for two nights at beacon skip or omegang every couple of summers watching good people have success like that has been really awesome um

you know and to bring it not to just bring it around to baseball but like they're such nice dudes that when we did the last shows at omeng um they know my boy's a short stop and and the cow ripkin foundation was in town and came backstage with these signed cal jerseys and gave them to scott and Seth. And the next morning, you know, Wiley, we had missed his first travel game that, that weekend, because we were stretched so thin as a company. And Scott comes back and says, give this to your shortstop. I'm not an Orioles fan. And, you know, like those moments, you know, just happened sporadically out of the blue because of the relationships you build. I want to keep coming back to that because that's what this is about. Most people can think that, okay, I'm, I'm running at theater now. I can go book all the bands in the world. Of course you can. You could be the best, you can book all the bands of the world you want, but you will pay more than me. You don't know what you're supposed to pay, right?

So anybody can book it. But agents are lovely, but they also can be agents, you know, the same way you say promoters have a bad rep. Some agents that are out there to make the most for their client. And if you're not smart enough to know the difference, you're going to get hurt in this business, you know. Well, I want to talk about your son and some other stuff before I let you go. I got to ask you one hacky question.

I have to do it. I didn't want to, but I have to. I have to. Is there at this level, at this stage of the game? Can you think of like a holy shit moment, like your favorite show? Or like a moment you were blown away? You were like, this is insane. Because you see so many.

It's hard. I think one of my proudest moments. I'm only thinking of it because I see the hat in the screen. But pulling off Cayuga Sound with ex-ambassadors was a huge thing for us. Doing that festival in Stewart Park with the roots and all those great bands was great. But it wasn't just that it was great. It was that they decided to make no money and so did we. And we were left with like $60,000 some thousand dollars at the end and we divided among five children's charities in Ethaca that work with the arts and stuff like that.

We gave every dime away and most festivals in year one lose a ton of money. We were able to raise enough to help Southside Community Center and, you know, youth farm project and things like that that were just awesome. And I brought Wiley with me to hand those checks off and watch people like lose their mind when they got. I got a thousand bucks they didn't expect, you know. I have goosebumps. Very cool. You know, I live, you know, I live there. So I'm so appreciative of what you do for not only the scene.

As an artist, you know, as a performer myself, I appreciate what you do. But as a fan and as a citizen of the community, just everything that you do for the community, including obviously the shows, but the money that you put back into the community, it's so, it's so appreciated, man. I mean, thank you for noticing because a lot of people don't, you know, I don't think people do as much. It was a really nice little run a couple years ago where we won the couple of awards that you'd ever think about. Like the downtown Ithaca gave us the entrepreneur of the year. And then the chamber did that for me the next year.

It was really cool. The videos they shot were really awesome. And it's funny because when you see yourself doing interviews, you don't realize that you say the same thing over and over again. Yeah. That chamber video was really cool because my feelings about how I run the company and how we run the company, I should say, because it's not just me anymore. is they come across and it's, it's wholesome and it's heartfelt and it's real. And it's like, it's different than when money's your motivator.

You just, you want to put on great shows and take really good care of the people who pay to see the acts and come to, you know, it's, it's how it works, it's how it grows. So I'm very thankful. I love the people that work for us. There's eight of us now. They're all in Western Mass doing a festival right now. And a couple of Chris Mazer and a few other people are prepared for Warren Zeter

is sold out at Beak tomorrow night and Waxahatchee Saturday. And here I am in, you know, Jersey. In New Jersey, a Diamond Nation. Yeah, let's talk about that. So you're down there. We shout out to Chris Mazer, by the way. I love him.

God, I love him. But anyway, you're down there with your son who is playing college ball, right at a high school ball, and he's looking to go to college, correct? Correct. Being recruited as we speak, yeah. It's amazing. He plays shortstop? He does.

He does. Yeah, we had a, we're just, we're down for, this is a really big scouting thing that a couple hundred colleges there today watching. It's a really cool complex with fields like in four different directions and this building in the middle with a platform and he just watched the coaches sort of walking around and checking out all the games. It was really cool. Is he, does he have any sort of, does he have his site set on a specific handful of colleges

he wants to go to or is he just like, hey, whoever will take me? It's a bit of both. I think we're in the middle of it right now and just learning. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, I, it's, I, it's, I'm just, it's, I'm just, like I said, I'm super thankful for the people that work, you know, with us to pull off these shows that I, you know, could say to them this year, our Christmas and holiday parties that, you know, I might be a little sparse this spring, but it's, you know, I got one kid and this is the time that I'm going to be with him. So, and, and, you know, they're pulling off a wonderful festival. and Greenfield Mass, the Green River Fest this weekend and two sold-out shows at Beacon Skiff and hopefully I'll be back in time for Saturday with Waxahatchie, but, you know, really excited that it can keep going. You know, when it was me in a laptop years ago,

I never saw this day coming, but I'm really happy that we've gotten here. Dude, it's been amazing to watch it happen. And, you know, yeah, sure. Some of it is, you know, we all have luck, but I mean, I would say 99% of your, Success has been your hard work, dude. You've been grinding since the day I heard of you and met you.

And it's paying off. And I love seeing good people succeed. And, you know, just keep doing it. Do you have, I mean, at this point, is there someone left that you're like, I've really like, this is the dream artist? Oh, yeah. What do you got? Tons of them.

There's tons of them. I mean, it's the ones who choose one and where they play, right? Yeah. Neil Young, you know, decides when he plays. Would I love to do a Neil Young show? Sure. I love for Eddie Vedder to say I'd love to come back to Ithaca. Sure. What I love for Tom Waits to play a show, sure. There's millions of those. But I, I, so Chris Mazur, as you mentioned, does our design work. And he did this ad a couple of years ago where I'm never really one for like microphones or like, you know, guitars or any of that kind of stuff. It's kind of cheesy if you use that. But it was a really simple thing, this little tiny microphone. And in the background is all the we've worked with in tiny little letters and I can just stare at it and you know and be like oh my god I don't even remember and it's mind blowing to me just how many people we've worked with over the

last whatever years like walking in the state theater box office and seeing all those posters of the people we booked it's it's a really humbling experience and and you can't you know you're as a promoter you're living in the future so much like I you could ask me who's playing next weekend and I'm going to have to think right if you tell me what I'm working on for January, February, March, that's where I am right now. Right. Even next summer, you know, we're always ahead. And people ask, what's coming up?

What are you excited about? I'm like, I can't tell you because I haven't booked it yet. You know, like that's where my head is working. Like, how do I steer the ship? But, you know, so it's a, it's a tricky thing in that way too. Like you have to have these. I mean, we're working on a very cool, lots of really cool stuff right now. And I'm really excited about it.

Yeah, man. But, but, you know, I'm excited for the weekend, rest of summer for, you know, all the stuff at Beacon Skip, it's a great relationship just south of Syracuse there, wonderful location, 4,000 cap, beautiful venue where people can come with families and have a good day, you know, so we're excited for, we've got country shows, Primus. Yeah, you've got. You got, I got it right. I wrote some down.

You've got, I was going to say, before we go, I want you to hit up the plugs of, there's so many. Father John Misty, Kurt Vile, Graham Nash, Primus, Rainbow Kitten Surprise, Dark Star, Orchestra, Lake Street dive, Cowboy Junkies, Rosanne Cash, ex-ambassadors, modest mouse. I mean, that's just a sum that I wrote down. Anything you want to plug.

That's all over, too. Those are all over the place. Some of those are in Rochester and Buffalo and whatever. I mean, look, I just say, check the website. We're really, you know, we send an email once a week. Once a week on Wednesday is we don't harass you with stuff unless you ask to be once a week. And then you get passwords.

You can buy tickets early when you're on our list. And, you know, there's lots of good reasons for it. We try to keep it friendly and fun, and that's the goal. You know, I think that our growth, like I said, has been beyond my wildest dreams, but I'm really having fun with it, and I don't see it, you know, I don't see it changing. I think we're just going to keep developing these relationships, you know, like seeing bands like Waxahatchie grow from club shows to selling 4,000 tickets in advance is pretty awesome, and it feels like a band we're going to work with for a long time

and in a lot of other places. Same thing with Mount Joy, watching them blow up has been really fun. They're having the festival with Courtney Barnett and Waxi Hatchy. A lot of stuff that we're doing at the fest also is playing, you know, around.

So it's just how our growth. I mean, I look back, it was like, I'd get a call from an Asian and be like, give me the avails for Ithaca for, you know, not to go back to Lyle,

but Lyle in May 1st to 5th. And now it's like, Lyle's coming to the Northeast in March. Where do you want to do it? You know, so we said, Ithaca, Buffalo, you know, and across the Western Mass and wherever. So you send six or seven offers and maybe you get four or five of them.

It's just, that's how the growth happens. You know, just do little runs of dates. Yeah, I don't know, man. It's good to have these conversations because you and I met at a different time. And we've certainly found ways to, you know, have you open shows with your band, with your comedy, wherever, you know, I think. And you've worked hard, you know, and to finish dispelling that myth, It's like we want to give those opportunities on every show that we possibly can.

But who's going to get them? Who's going to get them? They're the people who work hard, who bring a professional game and are, you know, granted, we're putting you on the bill sometimes because we need to sell a few more tickets to not get hurt. It's the name of the game. And we know you're going to work hard, right? I mean, there's no sense just showing up saying, oh, it's a Dan Small show. I don't have to work.

No, we put you on that show because if you help me sell another 50 tickets, I'll lose two or $300 less than the $700 I'm going to lose up that show. And I can't tell you, like I said, booking those shows that you know we're going to lose are part of the game. And you have to be willing to do that because you never know one of them is going to be the one that sticks to the wall. Right. So that's where the local relationships come in as well. And I wish we had a little bit better relationship with some of the ethic of folk. Sure.

They all grow up and they'll figure it out. They'll figure it out. Maybe someday I'll be the John Peterson that he is. You will. You will. And you'll have your own place, though, man. You may have been influenced by John and all that, but you've done things your way and you've made a name for yourself.

Oh, yeah. I'm so grateful that you're in the area. I do have to ask you one last thing, and that is, I got this, as I was thinking about this before the interview today, I'm like, shit, you don't ever plan on going, I'm going to uproot and move this whole thing across. Like, we need you in Ithaca, man. You're not going anywhere, are you?

No, it's very territorial. That's a really good question, you know, because the industry is very territorial. I'm not going to move into Chicago and take the shows away from the local promoters there at all. You know, it's not going to happen. So we're based in our markets. Those are our, there's respect for those markets among the industry, you know, for the most part. There's people who challenge that all the time and that's okay. That's how it goes. But I think from our perspective, you know, I think is our home base. Awesome. No, people know we do the shows there. We knew, you know, the states are home. home away from home for like theater shows and you know western mass in northampton amherst that's definitely our second home away from home but yeah no we're not going anywhere i i love living here it's been a great place to raise a family heck yeah man um you know it's it's the lifestyle is you know you're in a city you got to yell in this this club you got to you got to feed the beast every night because your rent is so crazy like you know sure we want to do more shows at the state but we're going to do so many right there's only so many nights a week that people are going to say i'm going to go see Elvis Costello and not, you know, calling hey or whatever, because it's just like,

can't do both, you know, you can't put people in that position. So we don't have to do that every night. I think that leads to a better lifestyle. It gives you time to be a good family, you know, person as well, which is important to me, you know, it's good to have balance in life. And luckily we're, we're still bringing big names into small towns. Sure are, man. That's a really cool thing. I've been at all these shows you're talking about. And again, I appreciate it. Dan Smalls, Dan Smalls presents. I'm signed up for the mailing list. Make sure you sign up because like he said,

they don't in and date you with with garbage email. I mean, it's once a, what did you say? Once a week, once a week, once a month. Wednesdays at noon. Wednesdays and noon and I get a list of everything going on. Here's the passwords for pre-sales. Here's the shows that we're coming up next week.

Here's some stuff down the road. They're going to leave it, you know. So last, absolute last. You golf yet? I know you love to golf like me. Have you been out yet? I do. I have, you know, this year has been terrible. My kids been out a few times, but I haven't.

But I will be back. I'm still, last summer, I might have gotten out eight or ten times. The end of the last year, the handicap was really low, you know, in single digits. Oh, look at you. I'm stuck with that now because I had it and it takes a long time to go back up. So, you know, anyone wants to make money now. Play me on my handicap and you're going to win. All right.

I'll take it up on it. I would love to play some golf with you. Dude, I would. Let's do that. Yeah, once we get past this, I have a feeling while he'll have his future figured out in August, which leaves the whole fall of the place, lots of golf. Awesome. Pretty excited about it.

Hit me up and we'll do it, man. Thank you, Dan, seriously. Thank you personally for taking the time to come on the show. Thank you for putting on all the shows you do. And I really appreciate you. And I'm always supporting you. So, DSPSP shows.com. If things come up, I'm always happy to come back and talk about him.

All right, my man. I'm at the age now where I want to give back and find the next people who want to do what I do. We're training them at the company, but I think there's room for them in other places too. And that's the next phase, right? To give back is what it's all about. All right, man.

Well, cool. Thanks for doing this. Thanks for let me do it from the road. Of course. It would have taken a lot longer if we were in person. Absolutely, man. Dan Smalls, thank you so much. You got it, dude.

Thanks for everything. All right, brother. All right. That's it for this episode of Good News. York brought to you by ads on the go get ads on the go.com. I'm Mike Brindisi. Thanks for tuning in this week. Next week we've got so many guests, so many things going on.

You can check us out at good newsyork.com and anywhere where you can watch or listen to podcasts, we're there too. So we will see you next week.