Guerrilla History - Bob Menendez & US-Cuba Policy w/ Liz Oliva Fernández from Belly of the Beast

Episode Date: July 19, 2024

In this episode of Guerrilla History, we are lucky to be joined by a special guest in Cuba as well as a special guest host whom many of you will likely remember from past episodes of the show.  Here, we bring on Cuban journalist Liz Oliva Fernández from Belly of the Beast to discuss Bob Menendez (who was just convicted on corruption charges), US-Cuba policy, and how these are related. This episode is being based off of two documentaries that Liz hosted for Belly of the Beast - Hardliner of the Hudson which takes a deep look at Menendez, and Uphill on the Hill which is an examination of recent US-Cuba policy. Watch these, and subscribe to Belly of the Beast on YouTube! Adnan was not able to join Henry for this one, so we drafted in our friend and former guest Taylor Genovese as a special guest host.  Taylor is an Assistant Professor of Philosophy at Dutchess Community College, an editor at Iskra Books, and a documentary filmmaker.  You may remember Taylor as a guest from two previous episodes - Peasants' Revolt of 1381 and Art and the Working Class.  Major thanks to Taylor for coming in on relatively short notice for this one! Liz Oliva Fernández is a Cuban journalist and the presenter of The War on Cuba, for which she won a Gracie Award. Apart from her journalism and filmmaking, Liz is a dedicated anti-racist and feminist activist.   Follow Belly of the Beast on Twitter @bellybeastcuba to keep up with Liz's work. Help support the show by signing up to our patreon, where you also will get bonus content: https://www.patreon.com/guerrillahistory 

You remember Den Bamboo? No! The same thing happened in Algeria, in Africa. They didn't have anything but a rank. The French had all these highly mechanized instruments of warfare. But they put some guerrilla action on. Gorilla History, the podcast that acts as a reconnaissance report of global proletarian history and aims to use the lessons of history to analyze the present.

I'm one of your co-hosts, Henry Hakimaki, unfortunately not joined by my usual co-host, Professor Adnan Hussein, who of course is a historian director of the School of Religion at Queen's University in Ontario, Canada, as he is at a conference today, a very interesting conference that hopefully we'll be hearing about soon on the show. but listeners, you can be sure that Adnan will be back for the next episode that we put out. I am fortunate to be joined by a guest host, though, one who many of you listeners will be familiar with, as he has been on the show, I think twice before. We have Taylor Genovese, who I will have introduced himself, but listeners, you may remember Taylor

from our Peasance Revolt episode, as well as our Art and the Working Class episode, which he was the guest on for both. Today, we have him guest hosting, and as we introduce the guest of the episode and the topic at hand, you will see why I ask Taylor to guest host this episode alongside me. So, Taylor, can you remind the listeners who you are before we introduce our guest today? Sure. Hi. I'm Taylor Genevese. I'm a assistant professor of philosophy at Duchess Community College in Poughkeepsie, New York.

And I'm also an editor at Iskra Books, which Henry is now kind of looped into. And I'm also a filmmaker. And so hopefully this combination, this kind of triad of combination, will at least come even a tiny bit close to filling Adnan's shoes here. And then he'll be back next week. Adnan certainly has massive shoes to fill. But, Taylor, I can assure you that you're perfectly suited for this conversation. So before I introduce the guest in the topic at hand,

I'd like to remind the listeners that you can help support the show and allow us to continue making episodes like this by going to patreon.com forward slash guerrilla history. That's G-U-E-R-R-I-L-A history. And you can keep up to date with everything that Adnan and I are doing individually, as well as what the show is putting out collectively by following us on Twitter at Gorilla underscore pod. That's G-U-E-R-R-I-L-A underscore pod. As I mentioned, we have a terrific guest today. We have the Cuban journalist Liz Olivia Fernandez who's joining us from Cuba. Hello, Liz. It's nice to have you on the program. Hello, everyone. It's a pleasure for me being here. Absolutely. So we're going to be talking about a couple of documentary films, which Liz was the host of. And as you can see, this is why

one of the reasons why we brought Taylor in as a documentary filmmaker himself. The two films that we're going to be talking about are hardliner on the Hudson, which is, you know, focused on Bob Menendez, and also uphill on the hill, which is looking at the Biden-Cuba policy and Cuba policy throughout the years, really, in the United States. These are, of course, topics that we've focused on the show in the past. We have numerous episodes that are focused on Cuba. The state sponsors of terrorism list is sure to feature in this conversation, and we have an entire episode devoted to the state sponsors of terrorism list and Cuba's placement on it, unjust placement on it, I should add. So be sure to go back and look at our

previous episodes on those topics. You can go to our Libson page and just type in Cuba in the search bar and you'll inevitably find many episodes that talk about the topic. So Liz, I want to ask you, you mentioned in uphill on the hill that your first time in the United States was actually for making that documentary and then subsequently you also made hardliner on the Hudson. Can I I ask what inspired you to come to the United States to make those documentaries in particular as a journalist who's primarily based in Cuba? Well, I think it's the inspiration what I was looking for. It was like I have to. Because working with our belly of the bees in the first years we have, we produced a documentary

series called The One Kila, where we analyze and we're trying to visualize the same part of the sanctions that Cuban people. But we never get into why the sanctions are in place. We just show the people who have been suffering and distinctions for more around 60 years, but we never have the opportunity to play. What's behind the sanctions in Cuba? Why are the sanctions have been in place for so long? And what is the interest behind the policy?

So all that answers are in the United States, not in Cuba. So that's why I, well, we took the decision on the team, the belly of this team, to go to the United States, to vote to US Congress, to go to a state department, to try to ask some questions and also to trying to get some answers from U.S. politicians about what is moving and what is behind U.S. policy on Cuba. That's very interesting that you decided to go. It makes sense, right, to go to Washington first to be able to try and figure this out about the state, this horrible designation of state sponsors of terrorism. What made you want to come back and focus particularly on former senator, I guess, Menendez, and really look at somewhere that. that was farther away from Washington. Was it an idea you had when you first came here from the first documentary, or was it something that you felt like you really needed to follow up for that second documentary? We shoot both documentaries in the same trip.

So I only have three months because of visa is only for a specific amount of time. So we get there with the idea to do one documentary and we finish to do two documentaries. Why I think the result was up here on the hill. I was talking with the politicians that I was talking with people inside of US Congress and everybody was mentioned Menendez in one way or another. So Menendez was a key piece of the puzzle

when it's talking about U.S. policy on Cuba. And also because Senator Menendez is actually Senator Menendez is actually Senator Menendez yet, he was the head. of the Foreign Relations Committee. I'm talking about one of the most powerful positions that you can have inside of the five administrations, inside of whatever administration that you are into. And also, he was a Cuban-American.

My purpose also was talking with Cuban-Americans for many years who were pushing for maintain the U.S. judges on Cuba. So I want to understand why I want to have the opportunity to talk to them and to try to get some answers. You know, speaking of the fact that you were in the U.S. for only a couple of months and the fact that you had to get a visa in order to come to the U.S. to do the work that you were doing, it reminds me of one of the scenes in the documentary. If I remember correctly, it was uphill on the hill where you ask one of the press secretaries, for the State Department, why Cuba is still designated as a state sponsor of terrorism. And they read this really vague list, which doesn't have any specific charges and are not necessarily tailored to what is happening in Cuba today.

But one of the things that they mentioned, which I found very ironic and very funny, is freedom of the press, which is funny considering they were giving this answer to a Cuban journalist who was being denied interviews with politicians in the United States who have direct bearing on Cuba policy and have very, very influential roles in Cuban policy. So I wanted to ask if you had any reflections on those sorts of moments where you were being told that these crippling sanctions and this designation of Cuba as a state sponsor of terrorism, which have direct devastating material impacts on the populace of Cuba. one of the justifications is freedom of the press

at the same time that they are preventing a Cuban journalist who is opposed to sanctions from being able to ask those questions directly to the people who are responsible for implementing those sanctions and creating that designation of Cuba as a state sponsor of terrorism which have created the horrendous conditions that are present today due to the blockade of Cuba So what were your, what was the feeling that you got when you were being told that freedom of the press was something that needed to be had?

Well, the whole, you have to understand that the whole situation was really frustrated. And I was really frustrated and I feel really bad because I couldn't get interviews. I couldn't get answers with talking to. I couldn't get a chance to talk to these people and to ask some questions. And the thing is that the same critiques that they used to go against civil government is the same critiques that I got for them because they are not open to talk to a Cuban journalist who is critical sanctions. But they're not talking about all.

They don't want to talk to the real Cuba's about what is going on. They have this idea about what is Cuba looks like, like 60, 17 years. or whatever, the Cuba who actually live in their minds, but it's not the actually that I'm living right now. But that was the list of my preoccupations, because when I'm talking about even being a sponsor of terrorism list, I'm talking about sponsored terrorism. And they are talking about human rights abuses on press freedom. What is that? What does that have to be with terrorism in Kat. The thing is that they don't have

an answer for the questions. They just, I create it and repeating the same, like, I don't know, the same ideas, the same story they have been repeating for decades. But what does that have to do with terrorism? The people, the

countries that should be in the terrorist list, it's a terrorist list, a day and all those things, by the way, is just for being And terrorists, doesn't nothing to do with human rights abuses, doesn't have to do nothing with freedom, doesn't have to do nothing but with terrorism. And what, which are, what are the proof that Cuba is sponsored terrorism in some way or another? They don't have it.

While they're presenting the same story once and another time, but they don't show proof, Okay, this is And this is not new The first time But Cuba was putting the list To a sponsor terrorism list Was during the operation Like a military operation

When Cuba sent troops To Angola and South Africa To fight apartheid Our nation who is fighting apartheid Could be in a list Of a country who sponsored terrorism them. Did people know what is the apartheid? And also, they are using the political refugees, like U.S. political refugees, that Cuba gave them asylum in the 80s and the 70s, like, but you are putting the Cuba now. And also, any other country in the world has the right to give political asylum to whatever he wants. And also, the people who Cuba give asylum in the 80s and in the 60s, and in the 70s, they are not accused.

They never been accused to sponsor or to commit terrorism at all. But in fact, the people that United States, I'm talking about Cuban Americans who have been living freely and died really in the United States, had been

accused to commit terrorism. Because everybody knows when someone talk about what is happening in the United States in New York, for example, September 11th. But people know about Cuban-L-Eastien flight.

People know, like, these people who were living greatly in the United States and giving a certain liability and a citizen in the United States for incidents commit terrorism, and they just blow up an entire civil airline with young people, teenagers,

the fancy team, the children of what does have to do with politics, gas terrorism, because it's a specific attack to civilians, and they're living in family. I remember the Bush and say that whatever harbored terrorism is going to be accused of terrorism, but that, first of all, those include the United States because they were having terrorists in their own country, but they never been accused of being terrorists at all. In fact, now that they have the law just to create their own list for all their countries, will they say their response of terrorism.

Yeah, that's absolutely right. You mentioned that there are terrorists who can blow up a civilian airliner, a Cuban civilian airliner who can then flee to the United States. They were, of course, operating from the United States, and live in peace until they die in peace in Miami. The United States wasn't designated a state sponsor of terror. Why was Cuba designated a state sponsor of terror? This is something that we talked about in more depth in our state sponsor of terrorism episode.

And something that you talk about in the documentaries is that the two primary reasons were one by aiding liberatory movements in Latin America against military death squads, for example, in Nicaragua. and the other reason was for aiding freedom fighters against apartheid in places like Hamgola and South Africa. Those struggles against oppression in 1982 is what led the Reagan administration to label Cuba as a state sponsor of terror. And that designation has remained ever since with one very, very small exception, which we will certainly get to in this conversation. Before I let Taylor ask the next question, I just want to also remember. Mind the listeners. If you're a newer listener, you may have missed at the end of last year. We had a big crossover episode between Rev. Left, Red Menace, and Gorilla History, where we had an almost three-hour-long episode on the history of apartheid.

And we do discuss not at great length, but we do discuss the role of Cuba in fighting against apartheid and in the fall of apartheid. But we definitely would recommend that you check out that apartheid episode if you would like to know more about the struggle against apartheid, the roots of apartheid and the role of Cuba in the struggle against apartheid. But Taylor, I'll turn it over to you for the next question. Sure. I think this is a very important point, right, to highlight this fact that there's not a shred of evidence, right, that the Cuban government has supported any kind of terrorist activities anywhere in the world, right? And on in in this kind of twist of irony that is so common within the United States, right,

is that Cuba has actually been the victim of all these acts of terrorism by the United States, you know, obviously the Bay of Pigs as as the first large one, but then just constant barrage of American terrorism against that island, including the, you know, 638 attempts at Fidel Castro's life. You know, I mean, that's just an insane number, right? And the fact that Cuba, rather than exporting weapons and terror around the world, like the United States does instead, has an incredibly long and well-documented history of exporting medical internationalism around the world, right? More so than anything else Cuban doctors have gone around the world to help. So, Liz, in Hardliner and the Hudson and also in the previous documentary, you begin to talk about some of these ideas. But I was wondering if you could could talk a little bit more about it from the American side, right? You bring up a few groups Omega-7, Alpha-66, and some of these other groups within the United States, they're these kind of Cuban-American nationalist groups. And I'm wondering if you could speak a little bit more

on their role within the interaction between these two countries, right? And then also, if there or any other tidbits you wanted to add on to that that weren't in the documentary that you had observed while you were here? Well, I think like there was a terrorist organization and they were very cause. The goal basically was like trying to feel like assisting its old guys. I like hope whatever person or organization that raised and trying to build a bridge between or links between Cuba and the United States. Because if you analyze the target of these organizations,

they were like a member of United Nations. And it's the only one member of the United Nations that has been killed. In New York, broadly like nothing happened. They targeted a guy that was trying to bring people to Cuba, like it troubles. And in course, Stephen Americans to come back to Cuba and to be, like, they represented with their groups from, they were targeted, um, what is the name, um, and trouble agency. They were tried, like, they were targeted like, amongst, like, citizens. organizations that not is because they support human governments is because in so way they were related to cuba and they want connections between cuba and the united states

imagine now like so many people in the united states are one trying to deal breaches like i'm talking about musicians i'm talking about oils i'm talking about people that have nothing to do with politics in fact and if you ask you to the cuban people where they take about the United States, they are going to talk the wonderful thing, because they always think about the people. The people is not the government. So a lot of people from both sides are trying to build like a corporation. They're trying to build links. And these radicals and these theories were opposed to any kind of like between the United States and Cuba, and also they want to over throw Cuban government in any way it's possible.

All the ways is possible. And of course, that leads to terroristic action by the United States government itself. We've seen since the early 1960s the imposition of a terroristic embargo blockade against Cuba with the sole explicit intent of emiserating the Cuban people to the extent that they would rise up spontaneously and overthrow the government. Now, on guerrilla history, we had probably a 15-part mini-series on sanctions as war, which was based on the book, Sanctions as War, some theoretical discussions, sanctions as siege warfare, media, and sanctions. But then we also had all of these case studies, including a case study on Cuba and on the blockade. We have to analyze sanctions as siege warfare. We have to see it as terroristic warfare, against,

the civilians, the populace, of a smaller country in this case. And we have to see that the purpose of this is to emiserate and to brutalize the populace of this smaller country. We have seen this going on for over 60 years now. And it continues today, in even more extreme ways in many ways, than it was earlier. At a certain point, it becomes pretty apparent to me, at least, that no one actually believes that the imposition of this blockade

is going to cause a spontaneous overthrowing of the government anytime soon. At a certain point, it almost seems as if the imposition of this blockade, imposition of sanctions, is almost meant to punish the people of the country for not just listening to America's bidding. Now, the sanctions policy of the United States and U.S. policy vis-à-vis Cuba, more generally, has been directed by many people through the years, but one of the very important groups are these Cuban hardliners that you discuss in your documentaries. I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about the rise of the Cuban hardliners

as an influential group within American politics and why they focused on American-Cuba policy so much so from those early days and why they still have so much influence today. Well, at the beginning, they didn't start as influence as they are right now. They just were a group of lobbyists

and trying to gain power. And also, they were taking notes from AIPAC. The Israel only love it that everybody knows how powerful can be. Why did you start? Okay, I want to believe it's because they have like a lot of things about the key of the revolutions. I don't want to believe that they were upset and angry. But in South of Reddy, that position, because one thing that I really noticed when I was interviewed people in New Jersey, I'm talking about, you know, Americans, all people that arrived to the United States and through in the 60s and the 70s, even the 80s, that there was a thing I really saw, because in some point of their life, they just swear that they never going to come back to Cuba anymore, ultimately the region, Paul. they are they are dying to coming back they are trying to be in their homeland again because i think

like cubanilicas is the only group of people i don't want to be excellent because but for me is one of them the more bizarre group because they don't want to maintain links on with their own country they don't want it out in fact they're asking but this And that's another thing. This is not the majority of people, because when we talk about Cuban-Americans are liners, some people maybe think that it's Cubans Americans in general and is not. Then most of the Cuban-Americans are not agree with dissentions,

because they know that they are not helpful alone. Because different reasons, some of them, because they don't believe the decisions are real. So they say that's not the point. So lifted, because they know that. that the search has only helped to know family here in Cuba. So they say, okay, we need to lift it. Because they want their relationship with Cuba,

because they want to do business with Cuba, because they want to be able to travel freely to the United States and Cuba, or don't have any, because they have family children or they want to bring that with them because they want normal relations. They are not asking like United States and Cuba became besties. They just want normal relations between the United States and Europe. Cuba like the way that like the world normal work and as these people have a big like huge nostalgia about Cuba so some of them I don't I have to say that it's a really small growth

that are really conservative in Cuba and asking for researchers but the people who are like that or acting like that they haven't been in Cuba because most of them for example when People told, asked me, okay, why Menendez is taking this hard position about Cuba, hardliner, what else? And I say, I don't know. He didn't get me a potential to ask himself. Because it is his parents going to Cuba. Now in the strictest line in the 509 was in the 16th, the 58, so it was under Batista.

So that's nothing to do with the Cuban Revolution. So what is the goal? I want to believe that it's power. I want to believe that also money because there is a lot of money going through prefering organizations and trying to overthrow their role with these programs like they call

regime change programs that is they actually only like democracy from motion problems but they are actually regime chain programs. So I want to believe that there are more of that At the beginning, it wasn't like that. Okay, everybody knows Mascanosa and the role that he had in Cuba politics and the way he stemmed his thoughts and trying to create a Cuban-American lobby.

But people right now can tell me where was that lobby when Obama decides to normal right relations between the United States and Cuba. Where, in the same place right now, there was the same politicians. also in key positions inside of U.S. Congress, but he did it anyway. So for me, Cuban Americans, of course, are a huge force inside of the U.S. Congress.

And that's special because any other nationality, okay, if we would accept Israel, for example, had such a mass power inside of U.S. Congress. Nobody's asking Russian-Americans what they think about U.S. Russia policy. Nobody's asking Chinese Americans. What about U.S.-China policy? So why Cubas are so important? Why Israelis are so important?

Because they build themselves as a force, as a huge force in the United States. And also, Cuba is a really polarized topic in the United States. So, Juni 2, there is not more people talking about Cuba more than Cubanikas. That's their flag. They need to tackle Cuba all the way around. It's not something else. It's not like someone who actually believe in or see some positive defense in Cuba are talking about this. Because talking about Cuba breaks a little backlash.

And most of the politicians are afraid of the backlash. because you can talk positively or just highlight some positive about Cuba, but you need to say first that King is a religion. You need to establish that first. So, and that's it's impossible to be on. My partner always say that the United States have really difficult problems to deal with victims that they are not perfect. They need a perfect victim for fire to establish itself,

in favor of this victim of this target whatever and this has happened with guys down palestine okay but they need to before they need to say okay genocide is bad we we can't like support that kind of um genocide that we can like financial this anymore no they need to try first about Hamas and half romance is bad but also but never talk about Hamas is a is a consequence of the united states and israel war for more than 17 years but that's because every every like every faith has layers and so people in for them it's difficult understand the context i'm not saying that it is perfect we're far away from being perfect i think we we want to we have a way of things to improve in our own country but this is our

our deal, we need to deal with our problems with our issues. That doesn't depend on the United States. And also, who is the United States to dictate us? How is the way that Cuba looks like? What's something that we need to reside in between Cuba, inside of Cuba? And also, do people leave Cuba? But they want to be a little bit of future. They want to come back for it.

So given America, that actually talk about Cuba, a lot of U.S. Congress. They don't know Cuba anymore. Some of them, they never put a foot in Cuba. So how can you be the person who's raising your voice for something that you barely know that you just hear about? How is that possible just because you are Cuban? Well, my grandma is Spanish, Anna.

That means that I have the rights to talk about what's going on in Spain or I have a voice without I've never been in Spain to talk about Spain issues or problems just because my grandma told me about that. That's crazy. I have a small follow-up on something that you said, Liz. You talked about how a lot of people, and this is frankly something that I slip into at times as well, and I'm sure many of our listeners do as well. When they think about the Cuban-American community, they think about the thoughts and the feelings and the predilections of the Cuban-American community larger as the same as those of the Cuban-American hardliners in Congress. So people like Bob Menendez, like Marco Rubio, when you actually talk to Cuban-Americans, the ideas surrounding the blockade are absolutely not the same. And this is something that you can see very nicely within the two documentaries that we're talking about. Many listeners, if they haven't watched the documentaries yet, and of course we will have them linked in the show notes.

So listeners, you should check them out. People might think, just listening to this conversation, well, you know, you were probably just interviewing, you know, left-wing Cuban Americans in the street and asking them about the blockade. And of course, they're going to be against the blockade because you're interviewing these young radicals, et cetera, et cetera. etc. Actually, the majority of the people that you talk to, Cuban Americans who you talk to in these documentaries on the street, were rather conservative. They are against the Cuban government. They don't like Diazcanel. They don't like the Castros. But universally, or at least nearly universally, I think there was one person who was a little bit wishy-washy on the issue, but almost universally when you ask them, not about their thoughts of the government, but you're

their thoughts of Cuban-American American-Cuba policy as well as specifically the issue of the blockade, they came out almost universally and said the blockade is a mistake. The blockade should be ended. The sanctions should

be ended. We don't agree with the government. Again, I'm speaking of the majority of the people in the documentary. We don't agree with the government, but the American government shouldn't be dictating these brutal policies that impact the people on Cuba. If we think that the government should fall, let it fall on its own terms.

The United States should not be the one to dictate how that happens and who suffers the consequences of that, which I thought was quite interesting. I don't know if you would like to add anything briefly before Taylor asks the next question. Just about this thought that, you know, the thought of the average Cuban American is similar to the thought of these hardliners in Congress. and what the actual situation is like when you talk to just, you know, average Cuban Americans on the street in the United States. Yeah, it's because Cuba's not government because it's different. And also how the Sanchez is helping to improve the situation in Cuba.

For those who are worried about human rights violations, some of them can tell me how the Sanchez is helping to improve human rights violation in Cuba in the last 16 years. So, and the most of the people, they didn't know, but they know that the Sanchez don't hurt the government, that the Sanchez just doesn't hurt the people. And it's incredible. And for those who actually believe that the Sanchez is only carried in the government, they need to understand that the majority of people in Cuba works can't be government. So when the United States, everybody was freaking out. Every time that they don't have, they, it's a danger to shutting down the U.S. government. because it can affect the public service in the United States is the saying in Cuba. You need to see the Sanchez as like United States governments trying to shut down

Cuban government for more than 60 years. But the difference is that the majority of their defense in Cuba are public. So I'm talking about healthcare, education, biotechnology, trash collection, everything is going to be affected. And also of course of the strangers is also happening the perfect but if you don't believe that you need to be concerned the majority of people that worse for the government are the most for the government the majority of the thing are black people so you are impacting a specific like population

you are impacting like minorities that historically has been marginalized because if you have to detach itself from the legacy of the colonel So there is a lot of things that people don't understand. I just talk about this, but they can explain how sanctions has been helping Cuba to improve our situation here. Because the goal is not improving the situation, improving our life in Cuba. The call is open-throw Cuban government.

And after July 11, people were clapping and laughing and just waiting because now is the moment. And sadly, I have to say that three years have passed now from July 11 and nothing happens. The government is still there is a public situation in Cuba is every day worse. And that's not because Trump policy. That's not because renan the policy. That's because Biden, China policy. Yes, I think that's one of the biggest pins, right, that you put into your documentary is the fact that Biden is done nothing except carry forward Trump's policies on Cuba, right? That he has, not only has

he not rolled back the policies that Trump enforced, but he's actually added more kind of sanctions on top or bolstered them in some ways. And I think these sanctions might be interesting to kind of touch on a talk about, because when we think about these kind of economic blockade, of what's being imposed upon Cuba. Sure, they're not allowed to import a lot of these things because of the sanctions. But there's little things that maybe most Americans may not even realize that the United States is imposing upon other countries, not allowing them to bring any kind of trade into the island, including tourism, right, which Cuba needs. And so there's this more of these contradictions coming in that maybe maybe we can touch on right of that the united

states is under the uh kind of guise or the flag of saying oh we want to increase freedom of trade or increase the freedom of the cuban people while simultaneously imposing these sanctions that are restricting the freedom of largely your western european countries to be able to trade with Cuba because one of the the big parts of the sanctions is that like a barge that carries goods to Cuba if they bring goods to Cuba that barge now is unable to dock in American ports for three years so a country in Western Europe in which it is totally okay to trade with Cuba right they don't have sanctions against Cuba but now they're being coerced they're being you know restricted from being able to carry out with their own sovereignty along with restricting Cuba's sovereignty

because they would it would be crippling for their own trade to be able to not dock in American ports for three years or something like that. And so I'm wondering if maybe you can illuminate some of your own experiences just being a Cuban and being in Cuba because from what I've heard is from from diplomats speaking at the National Network on Cuba meeting is that the situation in Cuba seems to be approaching or even getting as bad as the special period right after the fall of the Soviet Union in which there was a lot of shortages. And so I'm wondering if maybe you want to speak a little bit about the situation on the ground in Cuba and how these actual material restrictions are felt by the Cuban people and what

you're seeing going on. Yeah, I just want to make a quotation. Well, first thing you understand how the Sanchez works. The Sanchez is not only stepping in order to have like a normal relationship or trade within their say, but it's also stepping in favor to have normal relations or trade within the rest of the world. Why? Simple because instead of just law, the science is a group of law that many of all have like a different goal or subject. right, stopping Cuba, or isolated Cuba as much as possible. For example, when we talk about, okay,

some critics of Cuban government say, forget about the United States, just do business with the rest of the world. Well, we can't. Because for doing business with the rest of the world, what is the currency that use US dollars? So one of the sanctions, one thing that people need to transform is where is the soldiers look at it,

for a country like Cuba. Critics of the Cuban government always said, okay, forget about the United States. We visit with the rest of the world. We can't visit with the rest of the world because one of the decisions is stopping Qaeda to do like a non-answer. For example, we have something called the 10%. The 10% means that every article that we want to buy, product, whatever, if it has 10% of the United States and from something from made, the late night I said all U.S. enterprise around the world we can buy it. That's why, for example, when we did the one in Cuba in 2012, we told this story about Nestle. Nestle is a man is a farmer who lost hair, his bold legs each day, and he has the white prosthetics because

the right prosthetic, like what he needs, is impossible to kill or to buy them, not because we don't have the money to play for them. It's because our Germany, but the, 10% of these prosthetics are made from the US company. So it's illegal for Cuba to buy them. And I'm talking about if you were mentioned about the trade and the ships that are bringing goods to Cuba. They can call the United States force in six months. Can you fill it six months? And six months where people who are like for a company whose the goal is the goal is

carrying good point A to point B is just earn money. Imagine that you need to be stopped by like in the Havana sport for six months without the ability to move anywhere. That's not perfect. And the companies are all the world weren't perfect. Also, what is the currency that the whole world used to do transactions onto the trade? Newest dollar. One of the essentials is stopping. you have access to you as dollar to have access to credit you have access to bank accounts that's

crazy because let's be real who runs the world united states i do not say is government states and you know the states financial institutions so we are almost isolating from the rest of the world because it's stopping us to have like a normal relationship with the united states even if we want to forget about the Western Kenya and we want to be focused in the Caridia. For example, then most of the island in the Caribbean depends on the United States in some way or others and depends on the United States financial institutions. So what is the best way? So how is possible for Cuba to do business?

How is possible for Cuba and also we're talking about competition. We are talking like people are trying to get the best price. products, and Cuba is too risky because now we are not just under decisions, but also we are part of the state sponsor or theories on this. And there is something in the enterprise called compliance. That means that banks and financial institutions are afraid to don't be like in the terms of the compliance because they can be sued by the United States or the United States institutions. And that means money. Why are going to do business with Cuba? Why, for example, now a European citizen can come to Cuba and then come back to the United States because if they

came to Cuba as a journalist, because they want to be in the career, because they want to know Cuba, whatever the reasons. Now, if they are in Cuba or their business in Cuba, even as a story, work, whatever, they can't go to the United States on their esth data. That's huge because a lot of Europeans citizens have business, academic interchains, a cultural interchange, they want to do tourists in the United States. Now they need to choose between the United States and Cuba. And what is the idea of these people are following? Okay, if it's so complicated, maybe close, I'll ask the doors to come back to the United States,

for whatever reason so why are we going to have the case you see dominical republic but maybe for your president it's the same it's a caribbean so let's go to dominican republic or mexico or jicatam not going to kufa because it's too risky and maybe it's going to close us the doors to the granite states so guys the kind of things that now kiva has to play that's the kind of deal that you have to try to overcome it will pay so people say Some people say, like, okay, 16 years sanctions, maybe the general governance part B, but the sanctions are not the same, like, the sanctions that we have now is not the same decisions that we have in the 60 or in the sovereignty, on the 80s.

The same way that we're trying to get and try overthrow common sanctions and trying to find solutions is the same way sanctions has been moving around, trying to create more isolation, trying to target specific areas of curious economy, because at the end, it's trying to suffocate the European economy at a point that we just want to overcome our own. One of the things that's not talked about in the documentaries, but I'm very curious about your thoughts on and your experiences in Cuba. Taylor mentioned the special period. This is, of course, something that we've talked about in many episodes of guerrilla history. This is the period. This is the period of time after the fall of the Soviet Union, or I should say the destruction of the Soviet

Union, which then led to very, very critical situations in Cuba. Now, today, the situation in Cuba is quite dire as well as a result of these crippling sanctions. The designation is a state sponsor of terrorism. Disruption of tourism is a result of the pandemic, and then these policies that have been placed on Cuba. I'm wondering what you have heard and seen from people in Cuba regarding their thoughts about other countries that would be able to aid Cuba in some way or countries that have tourists that still would be able to come to Cuba. Right now, the United States, it's almost impossible for somebody to just go to Cuba as a tourist. There are a few exceptions, but for the most part, we can't travel there. People from other countries can.

Other countries do have much warmer diplomatic relations. I mean, not that that's saying much compared to the United States, but they do have relations with the government of Cuba. So what are the feelings of people in Cuba regarding other countries outside of the United States? Is there any sort of hope that these countries will kind of step up buck what the United States is trying to impose on them and allow Cuba to have the space to breathe by having some partnerships with other countries in the world. Well, first, you know, the United States citizens can come to Cuba. That's a fact. You can come. You can buy a fly and you can. I know that there is a lot of categories that you need to apply for, but this is something that you can do in

the airport. You actually can come to Cuba. And I'm highly. if they have the opportunity to time and the money, they just come to Cuba and see and be witnessed for their own eyes, what is happening here and also what is Cuba look like. I think like we are tired to lean on in other countries, that my whole idea and also I know about this, I'm sure about this, that we have enough talent, enough human resources, to build a strong economy and also to build a better country.

We don't want to depend on Russia because Russia is a great friend to the United States. We don't want to depart of China or Venezuela or whatever who is in the political, international, trying to face the United States and trying to help people to overcome all sanctions because these countries have been trying to all the small, culture's life, how they're trying to help Cuba. But that depends of the government of the situation. That depends of many factors. So we can align on other countries because that is out of our hands. And there is no more frustrated thing that it is something that you depend that is out of your control.

And that's what is happened with Cuba and Cuba's economy. We want to do this as well. all countries that were to do business. We are more than welcome to receive here to all that kind of citizenship or rationalists or tourists who want to come visit Cuba. In fact, when someone comes together for the first time, they feel like you, not because we have fancy hotels,

not because we have like it, the most diverse kind of rule, not because we are like a fancy experience, it's because the people in Cuba because they can feel the culture, they can feel the human beings, and they, from the first time, can't feel real. It's nothing more real than if Cuba who is able to give welcome to someone to welcome someone

to other countries, they invited me to their home and they offered me food, even when they don't have enough food for them. That's Cuba. And that's the thing that most impact the tourist were coming to Cuba. Well, Liz, I know that you have to go, unfortunately. So we will wrap up this portion of the conversation here. Listeners, Taylor and I will have a slight extension of the conversation between the two of us. But again, listeners, our guest was Liz Oliver Fernandez.

Liz, can you tell the listeners where they can find your work and if they want to keep up with the work that you're doing where they should look? Well, of course. They can follow Belli Optimist Cuba in social media. We are Injito, Instagram, and X. And also they can find us in our webpage, bellyoptivistcuba.com. And they can find not only our blast documentaries about U.S. policy on Cuba,

who is focused in Washington, the CEO, also is focusing in New York. I'm a senator, but Menendez, but they can find all kinds of videos related with the reality in Cuba because I'm proud to say that we are almost especially in that area because nobody is covering the reality in Cuba

the way we are doing because we are focusing really deep journalists and also beautiful cinemas of our pictures of filmmaking. And also we are bringing to the U.S. audience on our perspective but it's not the cliche perspective

that you can see in mainstream media in the United States. Terrific. We'll have all of that linked in the show notes. Thank you very much for coming on the show, Liz. And I hope that we'll be able to speak again in the future.

Thank you for inviting me. It's been a pleasure. And listeners, Taylor and I are going to continue this conversation right after the break. So listeners, we're back from our conversation with Liz Oliva Fernandez. Great conversation. We really could have gone quite a bit longer in this conversation, but unfortunately,

she had to go and I'm hoping that we'll have the opportunity to speak with her again in the future. Taylor, I'm interested in your take on the filmmaking of these two documentaries. I'm somebody who is notoriously not a creative person, not an artistic person. And, you know, we're talking about documentary films. So I would really like to have the perspective of somebody who makes documentary film. Was there anything that struck you about these two documentaries that we watched for this conversation? Yeah. Well, I think that the, it's interesting to see the, the Cuban perspective of the United States, right?

This is shot in a very kind of documentary kind of Veritas style. But so often as Americans or as Westerners, really, we see this style deployed in the reverse, right, in which we have kind of the Western gaze upon the other in another area, right? And so it was really interesting in these two pieces, which I really recommend folks go and check out the links and the show notes for in which you see this style deployed in the reverse, right? We see the Cuban gaze upon the United States, right? And we get to see some of the kind of artistic moves made

in order to try and illuminate the average Cuban-Americans perspective on things, right, which as we talked about a little bit in the conversation and that folks can go and watch the documentary to really see for themselves is a very diverse viewpoint, right? You arrange it as in age, you know, we have people who I think they were in like their 70s maybe in age all the way down into, you know, people who are younger, be able to give their viewpoints on the sanctions on the blockade. And it ranges, right?

It ranges from people who were very passionately against it to people who, you know, you know, one of the guys is like, I don't want to travel there because I don't want to support communism or something. Oh, yeah. They have a pretty wide range. One of my favorite quotes, actually, from the movie, I won't spend my money on communism. Right. Yeah, it was a great quote, right. But, you know, artistically, it was it was something that a lot of, I think. think Americans, a lot of Westerners, will be familiar with, but what made it really interesting

was that it was done from the flipped gaze. One of the things that I also thought was really interesting was the intentionality of highlighting the perspectives of various communities, including those in which you wouldn't normally get when looking at a location like Washington, D.C. So this is specifically within uphill, on the hill, where, of course, the first half of the documentary, she's in the halls of Congress and trying to get these interviews with Congress people, as well as Chiefs of Staff of Congress people. And she's speaking with a former Commerce Secretary who used to be a very hardliner on Cuba policy and then kind of came around in his later years.

We're talking about a Bush era official commerce secretary, former CEO of Kellogg's, which, by the way, Kellogg's is an absolutely evil corporation, but that's a story for another day. I think I've talked a little bit about the Kellogg's Corporation in the past, but we will save that for another day. But one of the things that was really interesting is that, you know, she intentionally states after going through this whole process of trying to interview these politicians of saying, you know, you go on, into the streets of Washington, D.C., and you realize, you wouldn't notice it from in Congress and on the, you know, on Capitol Hill, but you go into the streets and you realize that Washington, D.C. is a very heavily black majority city. These are perspectives that are not normally heard when we're talking about Washington, D.C. We don't talk about the populace that lives in Washington, D.C. We only focus on the politicians who are occupying, you know, territory in

Washington, D.C. in order to pass laws, and she goes around and she interviews just random people walking on the street in Washington, D.C. And the way many of those people articulated the issue of American Cuba policy and articulated the exact devastating consequences of the blockade on Cuba and articulated the depravity of American policy vis-a-vis Cuba, vis-a-vis the blockade specifically, talking about the consequences on ordinary people, talking about how there is no endgame with those policies other than devastating the people,

talking about how designating Cuba as a state sponsor of terrorism, while the United States is carrying out actions and supporting actions, much more directly terroristic than Cuba has ever done, The articulation was terrific. And those are perspectives that you would never see despite the fact that we see so much news coverage coming from Washington, D.C. So that was a perspective that I really enjoyed seeing highlighted, not just in passing, but at quite some length. It was maybe the last 10 minutes of that documentary was just talking with people on the street in Washington, D.C. That's the kind of like really particularly cruel, you know, almost, it would be.

comedic if it wasn't so devastating, right, irony that's so common in the United States, right, that the people of Washington, D.C., the overwhelmingly black population of Washington, D.C., are suffering a similar kind of internal colonization embargo that the Cubans are, right? That, like, even in the most basic, simple liberal bourgeois terms, they cannot vote, right? They don't have some kind of representation. and the reason why Washington, D.C. doesn't have representatives, right, like kind of a liberal bourgeois representation is because a majority of the people in Washington, D.C. are not the actual politicians, right, but are, or, you know, black folks that are living on the outskirts of D.C.

So that highlight, I think, whether it was intentional or not, it would have been great to have Liz talk about that. But it, that kind of, it seemed like there was kind of a mirroring going on there between Cuba and then the kind of people in D.C. Well, in my opinion, it came off as incredibly intentional because it was counterposed directly with these interviews that she did with staffers and press secretaries of the administration, of the Biden administration, who when posed with these, I'm going to air quote here, listeners, I won't see it, difficult questions, which are really, really, really not difficult questions, but it's difficult for them to answer honestly of why is Cuba

on the state sponsors of terrorism list? What has their record on these categories that you have said that they have been violating bin in the last couple of decades? What is the impact of the blockade of the people on Cuba? These questions that she's posing, which the politicians, these people whose job it is, they answer, these kinds of questions, and to understand the impacts of policy and pass policy, they are unable to answer these questions with anything like honesty or a full-fledged, well-reasoned answer,

whereas just these people passing in the street who have absolutely no power, who have absolutely no role vis-a-vis policy on Cuba, they could articulate the problem in full honesty and much more articulately, much more accurately that any of the administration officials that she spoke with,

even with some of the progressive quote-unquote administration officials that were highlighted in the documentaries, that people on the street put them to shame when it came to articulating the issues with American Cuba policy. I thought that it was definitely, definitely intentional. And there was just a complete, like,

there was a complete lack of wanting to even begin to engage with these issues, right? On the hardliner on the Hudson, right? And both of them highlight this really well, that there's probably a very good kind of analysis, ideological or even psychological analysis of what is going on with these hardliners because they are not only can they not articulate the reasons why they're a problem, why they have a problem with Cuba.

they're unwilling to even have the conversations with somebody about them, right? Bob Menendez is in the hardliner in the huts and he repeatedly kind of pushes her off. His son pushes her off, right? The one interview that she does secure in that with Albio Ceres, right, when she starts talking about Cuba, he says, is this interview only going to be about Cuba? Because if it is, I'm stopping the interview, right? He says several times, continue with the interviewer, I'm just going to walk, right? They can't, they don't want to articulate the reasons why, and there's probably some good

analyses that we can do on the fact that everything is just completely, is empty kind of ideological rhetoric that they're repeating. There's no real kind of feelings about this other than the fact that they can hold on to some kind of coalition or some kind of hack money in order. to just say these certain phrases, right? Yeah, one of the things that we were unfortunately not able to get to in the conversation. And something that I'm sure the listeners are thinking, why did that not come up yet, is the fact that Bob Benendez is one of the most corrupt politicians in the United States.

And, I mean, that takes some doing. Famously, famously, right? Famously, that's, I mean, kind of most Americans can't name any congressional politicians. he is one of the more better known ones. Why is he better known? It's not for being one of the more influential politicians on Cuba policy. It's for being one of the most famously corrupt politicians in the United States. And again, that's a high bar to be considered one of the most corrupt politicians in the U.S. But he's been indicted on corruption charges for goodness sake. Like, we're not just talking about hearsay here. We're talking about somebody who's

been on trial for corruption. And for Cici's Egypt, like, it's not just corruption. You know, there was a shady person who handed him a check. No, he was indicted for lobbying for Cici's Egypt. This is like gold bars and all. Like, this is why he was in the news. That hasn't, that didn't get to come up in the conversation. We ran out of time. But, you know, it's interesting that this famously, famously egregiously corrupt politician is running Cuba policy during Democratic administrations like the Biden administration when we see these absolutely brutal and inhumane policy decisions being made, as you mentioned, and as Liz mentioned, the Biden policy towards Cuba is really just an extension of the Trump policy. And it's because of voices like corrupt Bob Menendez.

So, you know, it's a shame that we didn't get to mention the corruption charges against Benendez in the conversation, particularly because that's what he's probably mostly known for to the average American. I'm curious, Taylor, you know, you're close to his congressional district, not a million miles away from it anyway. You know, how did that corruption trial against Menendez resonate within your community there? yeah i'm not too sure uh about that personally just because i only moved here a few years ago so i i'm not entirely sure but i mean that that it's i mean coming from across the country

that the idea of corruption or the um uh thoughts about corruption in this part of the country in particular is it shows up in the documentary actually really well she interviews somebody where they're just like, you know, this is the way it is, right? It's like you kind of assume that anybody that is in a position of power here is dirty in some way, right? Right. It's just that Menendez was so flaunted how corrupt he was, right? And even though we didn't get to talk about it too much in the conversation, Hardliner and the Hudson especially does go into this quite a bit, right?

And there is some digging, you know, the guy who I previously mentioned, right, Ceres, he was a congressperson and left Congress. He was a mayor initially, right, in Union City, then went to Congress, right? The traditional ladder. And then decides to leave Congress after 17 years to become a mayor again of his city. And this is, you know, they point out this is very highly unusual. and who is going to replace him in Congress? Well, it's Bob Menendez's son, right? Suspicious, I would say.

Yeah, and Liz mentions this, right? In the interview, it's really great to mention it right to him. You know, is, you know, were you influenced? Of course, he denies it. But it is very, you know, it seems far too specific and strange to be a coincidence. Yeah, you mentioned that there was somebody who said, that's how politics up here works. It's all corrupt.

There was another quote. I can't remember who said it in the documentary. So if you remember, please fill me in. But somebody was like, yeah, you know, it's not quite what you see on the television where we have these mafia officials. Yeah, it was that guy. It's like, you know, giving golden handshakes to politicians and horses' heads. But it's not that far away from it.

Right. which is quite humorous. And then also there was another person who was interviewed when asked about Bob Menendez. He just looks and he says, it's Bob Menendez. Do I need to say anything else about him? It's not that I'm afraid, but really, like, is there anything else that needs to be said about Bob Menendez? And this is somebody who's one of the most influential voices under the Biden administration. right and this is this is the this is the um more of that deep irony right the fact that um uh the supposed

reason why we're imposing the economic blockade and the sanctions right is for the freedom of the Cuban people right because they supposedly quote unquote don't have freedom of the press even though with these two documentaries we at we see that quite and after this conversation with Liz right who is in Cuba right now and had and said in our conversation a few things that are not pleasant about the administration, right? These are things that supposedly are not happening, right? But then you have somebody coming to the United States, and this is part of what I said about the kind of tactical flip here of the documentary, of you have ordinary Americans

here who are saying things like, well, you know, that's just. the way it is or you know that there's this is the corrupting you know power of the government and and it's all of the it always suspiciously comes up right that the in the united states that the the thing that is being charged it is is often the thing that is going on within within the belly of the beast yeah yeah so i have one kind of big question for wrapping up this conversation Taylor, I know that you and I could probably talk for many, many more hours about this and many other topics, but, you know, the listeners probably came to this conversation for Liz and not just for us having our friendly conversation. So I will wrap us up with this question.

But many listeners might be wondering because I know you're a guerrilla history listener, not that you're usually on the hosting panels, but you are familiar with what we do. We don't typically talk about U.S. domestic politics very often. When we focus on struggles, we focus on struggles of people. And often the United States comes up as an actor because the United States is meddling and trying to keep the people down in various places around the world. So regardless of whether we're talking about, you know, Mexico or, you know, Mexico or West Africa, you know, the Sahel region or whether we're talking about India, the United States

has a role to play in all of these places. And in our episodes, it does come up. But we don't typically focus on U.S. domestic politics very often. We don't usually name U.S. politicians by name. We don't usually go after Bob Menendez as an individual. We don't talk about the Biden administration versus the Trump administration, which is what a lot of shows. focus on, you know, like, what's the same, what's different about these two administrations and what should we be doing in November when the election comes around? We don't do that on this show because electoral politics and U.S. domestic politics are not the focus of this show. But when it comes to Cuba, the United States has such an outsized influence that sometimes

delving into the domestic situation and domestic political situation of the United States is useful for helping understand why things are happening in Cuba the way they are, why U.S. policies vis-a-vis Cuba are enacted the way that they are. So I'd like to get your thoughts on perhaps why, for a show that doesn't typically focus on domestic politics, why it is useful for us to occasionally have conversations like this one, where we do turn the lens inwards and focus more on the United States than we do on the people that are being oppressed. I mean, of course, we did in this conversation as well, but we looked much more at the domestic politics of the United States than we typically did, than we typically do, I should say.

And if there's any utility in that and your thoughts on that. Yeah, I think with Cuba is one of these intensifications or these places that it becomes very important, I think, to pull back the curtain domestically. And I think this is also the case with what's going on in Palestine, in that the, and I think this is why, you know, Liz even mentioned APAC and in Palestine, right, is that these kind of enactments of brutality from the United States are so easily directly recallable if American

if Americans from inside the belly of the beast, right? This is the term, are able to mobilize enough strength to be able to push through policy. And if we're able to pressure people or if we're able to expose

people like Menendez, right? Not necessarily advocating electoralism or anything, but being able to rally and try and pressure people to relieve these stresses, right? That eliminating or taking Cuba off the state sponsors of terrorism, lifting the economic blockade.

These are things that don't need, you know, bills to be passed. These are these are executive actions that can be pressured, right? The same as things like student debt, the same as things as like stopping, sending military aid right to Israel and so being able to to analyze what's going on outside is incredibly important but in some of these very particular issues it becomes very important also to understand that we as Americans I'm speaking of as the we have a responsibility then to understand how these things or why these things are going on, right? This is why Liz, I think, produced these documentaries and why she chose not to speak to Cubans about these, but rather

to speak to Cuban Americans about these things, right? That this is, this is not something that is supported by Americans. So why are we having this enacted? And so it becomes very important for us to work together to try and get rid of this. Right. And there are many coalitions that are that are doing it. Yeah, I think that that's exactly right. And I also think that it's exactly right. What you point out that these documentaries are very obviously targeted towards Americans. We're talking about Cuba. I mean, of course, as I mentioned in this conversation and in the documentaries, it's focused much more on domestic politics than Cuba itself. But it's domestic politics

related to Cuba. The audience of these is intended to be Americans, because America, Americans are the ones who, as you mentioned, could potentially influence these things. So, thinking about the audience, thinking about who has any sort of agency here, you know, the Cubans in Cuba are all opposed to the blockade, but they don't have any say on whether the blockade is implemented or not, because that is a dictate by a terrorist nation next door on them. The people in Cuba have absolutely no agency. So is it useful to produce material for people in Cuba to understand the blockade?

Absolutely. People need to be able to analyze their own material conditions. This is why we try to focus globally with our show. You know, we have 170 episodes. We probably only have two or three that focus as heavily on the United States itself as this conversation did out of our 170 episode catalog. particularly when we talk about indigenous resistance, we have a couple episodes on and the counter-revolution of 1776 and the counter-revolution of 1836 with Gerald Horn.

So maybe we have five episodes that are really U.S. focused. But that's about it. It's really important for people to be able to analyze their own material conditions. And so, of course, materials need to be created in Cuba for a Cuban audience. They need to be created in, I live in Russia, listeners, I'm sure you're aware. You need to be created in Russia for a Russian audience. But there also needs to be materials that are created for people who have agency when decisions and when actions need to be taken. When we're talking about the blockade, it is not the Cuban people who have agency.

It is the American people and the American government who has agency. Now, you, listener, if you are in America, and I appreciate that many of our listeners, probably the majority are not in the United States. but we do have an English-speaking audience, and therefore many of our listeners are from the United States. If you're from the United States, yes, you individually are not going to have the agency to change American policy vis-a-vis Cuba. However, you do have some role to play.

And collectively, you and other comrades who are operating in the United States could have agency. You could affect some change. That's why organizing is incredibly important, organizing around these issues is incredibly important. You have agency when it comes to this issue more so than the people who are being impacted by the blockade. The insanity of that situation should dawn on you, listeners, but that is the reality of the

situation. And so when we're talking about, you know, the documentaries being targeted towards Americans, our show being an English language show, is going to be listened to primarily by people in the imperial court, you know, that's just the reality of it. Well, listeners in the imperial court, you're not more important than other listeners, but you do need to understand these things because in many of these situations, because of the imperialist nature of your countries, you have more agency than the people who are being impacted by your country's policies.

It's just the sheer reality of the situation. And so you need to understand this. And it is useful for us to target American listeners, particularly on occasions like this, when you have the agency to do something about it. And also, I mean, this is, sorry, sorry to interrupt. No, no, not interrupt you know, I got the timeline wrong on this, on the shipping thing. But this is the people that are in Europe, right, Western Europe even, too, right? This is a case in which it's tied to Cuba that is perpetrated by the United States,

but is also restricting the sovereignty of Western European countries in them not being able to carry out even kind of, you know, liberal ideas of free trade, right? If you dock in a Cuban port, you cannot dock in a port controlled by the United States for six months, right? And I think there is different rules too with tourism because I have a friend in England who works in tourism and was talking about how they had to completely restructure how they do tourism because it affects their you know so these are decisions that are restrictive

of of of the sovereignty of not just Cubans but you know Western Europeans right you know it's funny it's the vassalization of the imperialist Western Europe under the imperialist yoke of the United States just as an aside but it you know that is with regard to Cuba specifically what we're seeing and there's just there's abundance of coalitions to try and support Cuba. The one that Iskra Books is a part of is the national network on Cuba and then OC.org, if you go there, you can also find a bunch of other groups that are, because this is just a coalition of other groups that are that are trying to support. But even not in the United States, there's the Canadian network on Cuba. There's the

Cuba Solidarity Campaign, Great Britain. There's Cuba Solidarity Forum, Ireland, the Germany Cuba Friendship Association. I mean, there's all over the world, there are groups that are set up to try and support what's going on, the kind of injustice that is happening with Cuba. On NNOC.org, too, we have a whole section about traveling to Cuba, by the way. I know Liz I mentioned how you can go. We have a list of all travel providers that will help you be able to go to Cuba because there is a big, there's a list of 12 for Americans anyway. I should say, you know, elsewhere, other countries in the world can go to Cuba all they want. But for Americans, one of the 12 stipulations is this wonderfully amorphous reason called support for the Cuban people.

And this is the one that you can manipulate through these travel organizations that are very familiar with traveling to Cuba to be able to travel and go. you're not going for quote unquote tourism but you're going to support the Cuban people. And so as Liz said, try and be able to utilize those things. There's also a lot of brigades that do work that go down to Cuba for both cultural and labor exchange that if anyone is to any Americans that are interested should check out. Yeah, absolutely. So, unless you have any other final thoughts, Taylor, I think we should wrap up this conversation. Sure, yeah. One more campaign. If you look at Let Cuba Live.Info, it's a global call trying to raise a million signatures to lift the economic blockade and the sanctions. And so I would encourage folks to go check that out.

That is an international effort. And so that could be a lot of help, I think. Yeah, absolutely. I know that we've signed on to that as guerrilla history. And I know that Isker Books, I believe, has also signed on as an organization on to that. So on that note then, Taylor, thanks very much for agreeing to guest host this episode. Can you let the listeners know where they can find. find you and more of your work.

Sure, yeah, you can go to my website, taylorgenivese.com, check out iscrabbooks.org. We're doing a lot of great work there. And I'll just, I'll leave it at that. Hopefully, hopefully I did okay enough to, to start to fill out on shoes. But thanks for having you on here, Henry. I always enjoy talking to you. Absolutely. We'll find more reasons to bring you back on, I'm sure, as time goes on. Listeners, as you may be aware, Adnan was not here for the conversation, but you should follow him on Twitter at Adnan A. Hussein, H-U-S-A-I-N. Follow his other podcast, The Mudgellis for Middle East Islamic World Muslim Diaspora Topics. That's M-A-J-L-I-S, wherever you get your podcast. But make sure it's the one from MSG-G-P-U, the Muslim Society, Global,

Project at Queen's University, and not the one from Radio Free Central Asia, Radio Free CIA, that is. That is the wrong one. If you end up there, you are in the wrong place. As for me, listeners, you can find me on Twitter at Huck 1995, H-U-C-K-1995. I'll echo Taylor that you should check out Iskerbooks.org. I'm a fellow editorial board member along with Taylor. And as for guerrilla history, you can help support the show and allow us to keep making episodes like this by going to patreon.com or with slash guerrilla history. That is G-U-E-R-R-R-I-L-A history. And you can keep up to date with us on Twitter at Gorilla underscore Pod, G-U-E-R-R-R-I-L-A underscore pod. And until next time, listeners,

Solidarity. We're going to be able to be. Thank you.