Guerrilla History - Building the Communist Party of Kenya w/ Comrade Booker Omole

Episode Date: April 14, 2023

In this excellent conversation, we talk with Comrade Booker Omole of the Communist Party of Kenya about their new book release - The Building of the Communist Party of Kenya!  A great conversation about building a Communist Party, the book is a tremendous resource, and all proceeds of it go towards supporting the CPK! Booker Omole is the National Vice Chairperson and National Organizing Secretary of the Communist Party of Kenya.  He can be found on Twitter @BookerBiro. Support the Communist Party of Kenya!  You can contribute to their fundraising drive on PayPal.  You can follow them on Twitter @CommunistsKe, on Facebook, YouTube, or on Instagram.  You can also support them by buying something from their Propaganda Shop or getting the book we talked about today!  You can also check out their website at https://www.communistpartyofkenya.org/. Help support the show by signing up to our patreon, where you also will get bonus content: https://www.patreon.com/guerrillahistory 

You wouldn't remember Dinn-Bin-Bin-Bou? No! The same thing happened in Algeria, in Africa. They didn't have anything but a rank. The prince had all these highly mechanized instruments of warfare. But they put some guerrilla action on. Hello and welcome to guerrilla history, podcast that acts as a reconnaissance report of global proletarian history and aims to use the lessons

of history to analyze the present. I'm one of your co-hosts, Henry Hukamaki, joined as usual by my two co-hosts, Professor Adnan Hussein, historian and director of the School of Religion at Queens University in Ontario, Canada. Hello, Adnan. How are you doing today? I'm doing great, Henry. It's wonderful to be with you. Absolutely. I just saw you yesterday, but of course, I'm still very happy that we get to do two days in a row. Also joined by our other co-host, Brett O'Shea, host of Revolutionary Left Radio and co-host of the Red Menace podcast. Hello, Brett. How are you doing? I'm doing good, and I'm super excited to talk to a book here today. I learn a lot from them.

And, you know, it's a great role model for those of us in the West to learn from. So I'm very excited about today's episode. Yeah, absolutely. So the episode that we have today is going to be featuring an outstanding guest and a brand new book. But before I introduced the guests and the book, I will mention that this is a continuation of our sources. and methods series. This is a series that we recently started and Adnan, why don't I pass it over to you to remind the listeners of the sources and methods series, which we started with the book about the Black Liberation Army. That's right. We started a series called Sources and Methods. This is the history podcast and one of the most useful things that we could do in educating people about

history is also the methods of studying history and the importance of history. And the importance of historical sources and documents and approaches to historical consciousness. And so we had a couple of great conversations about collections of documents and writings from the struggles. As Henry just mentioned, the first edition of this new series was the collected writings of the Black Liberation Army, Volume 1. And then we also had a discussion on a new collection, organized, fight, and about black communist women's writings, political writings. And so this is a real appropriate third edition in that this book that we're going to be discussing includes an awful lot of party documents and statements that reflect the political organizing

and analysis of the Communist Party of Kenyan. So we can learn a lot from looking at these documents to understand the history, evolution, and activism of the Communist Party. So I'm looking forward to speaking with one of the figures involved very soon in putting this book together. Yeah, absolutely. I think that this, as Adnan mentioned, is a perfect continuation of the Sources and Method series. So the book that we're going to be talking about is the building of the Communist Party of Kenya, which was compiled by the Central Organizing Committee of the Communist Party of Kenya,

and was just edited and published by Red Prince Publishing, which is also the Marxist-Leninist reading hub in collaboration with Iskra, it just came out this week. So a very fascinating new book, very hefty book, and a very important book for us to dig into. And we're joined by a returning guest, one of our friends, and somebody who really we can't have a better person to talk to about this book. We're joined by Comrade Booker Omole, who is the National Vice Chair,

and National Organizing Secretary of the Communist Party of Kenya. Hello, Comrade Booker. It's a great pleasure and an honor to have you back on the show again. Thank you very much, Comrade Henry. And it's also a doubt to meet your two co-host, you know, Brett and Adnan. We, we in the Communist Party of Kenya have been pivoted, you know, to aptly interact with the guerrilla history podcast. And please know that the first time that we featured in the Gorilla History podcast was when we were under a serious crisis and people were trying to know what is happening with the building of the party.

And every time I had to, you know, get out and try to have interviews with people who were looking up to us in terms of trying to provide, you know, the actual. conditions that we are going through. So thanks to guerrilla, you know, history that we got to have this first podcast with you, and it was one of its kind because people got to know about the Communist Party of Kenya. And for a moment, even we got the Marxist, you know, Leninist Reading Hub to try and get us off to, you know, to meet our financial, you know, commitments within the party at that time. And you joined in also in handy, and then the red prince came by. And the thinking was, you know, the communist strangely, not even strangely, but I think

we don't, you know, get ideas from our head. All that comes to us is through, you know, practice and, and actually experience. So we have seen, you know, professors here at the universities writing how to make a Kenyan revolution, you know, what Kanwksu called the UmbChair revolutionaries. But in actual sense, the building of the Communist Party to make the book is actually written from the experiences

of the carders within the Communist Party of Kenya, it is not a perfect book. It actually ensnared the mistakes that the party made. It is not just a book that want to show how perfect we are. In fact, we have published some of the documents in very unfettered, in very unedited version, so that anybody outside there who thinks of building the Communist Party wherever they are can learn from us because you remember that we are trying to bring out the

building of the party all from 1997 then 2003 to 2019 and then we actually at the climax of it do what we call a negative analysis of the crisis of the 2022 and the main objective is that the comrades that have joined the party recently because you know our membership has actually escalated in fact now we are doing almost 1,400 you know new recruits in the party school so that they are able to learn from you know we do not want them to repeat these mistakes that we have made before and other than that comrade henry was that the communist party of kenya has been struggling with revolutionary fund raising. Remember, we have just been, you know, we could say moving on gas for most of the time. And we look at also this project as one of the ways that

we can genuinely and honestly raise money to build this movement together, because we say that together we can fund this movement, because it's not a movement for any other person. In fact, we say in the Communist Party of Kenya comrades that the Communist Party of Kenya can never be a product of one single person. It is a product of the struggle of the majority

of the Kenyan people. Even before it's unveiling, we can never we are the party that is starting to organize for a revolution in Kenya. We are only a continuation of the struggle that started before even we

came to be. That is my you know my introduction to you comrades yeah that's excellent and before i let my co-host take us into the text itself i'd like to open the conversation just briefly and you touched on this a little bit already but i would like to know what the impetus was for making this book now and including what you did in the book so like i said you have touched on this you touched on we had to focus on documents of how we built the party but also some of the problems that we made so why now Why did you make this book now? And I will absolutely just double down and mention that listeners that purchase copies of the book,

the funds that the profit of the purchasing of these copies goes directly to contribute to the Communist Party of Kenya and help them to operate. So if you didn't already have a reason to buy the building of the Communist Party of Kenya, there is your reason in itself. It's a way to help support the party and help their ongoing struggle in Kenya. But why now and why form the book in the way that you did? Now, Comrade, the Communist Party of Kenya has suffered, you know, tremendously based on the wrong idea of the party. And these wrong ideas, there is no other way to correct those ideas, other than accepting the mistakes that we have made, not just within the membership, but also within the cadres and within the leadership of the party.

Remember, in December last year, we started an informed process to start what we were calling a rectification program in the party. And the rectification program, Comrade, was to try to go to the very roots of where our problems in the party. and try to correct it there. And there was no other better way to do it other than reflecting, you know, in our history of building the party. And also to have honest conversations within the party. But also we wanted to be honest with the Kenyan masses and the people who support us and give us solidarity.

That indeed the Communist Party of Kenya is not, you know, a perfect, you know, monolithic hole, but it's made up of comrades that are products of the old society, that when they step into the Communist Party of Kenya, they don't come as regiment communists. In fact, they come with the ideas of the old society. They come with ideas of capitalism. There are other elements of, you know, opportunism. There is people who join the party because the party has done. them something. For example, the Communist Party of Kenya is very popular in the landless areas

in Kenya. And the masses that support us, they don't support us because they know Marxist and Leninist, but they know that the communist leaders, when they are sent to the negotiation table with those who are responsible to give them land, to give them dignity, then they would not sell out. In that way, we have a biggest support in the oppressed status. Stratos in the Kenyan society. So the immediate, you know, urgency to publish this book after the 2022 elections was really to do a negative analysis, self-criticism, criticism, and collective criticism in the party, and open a honest debate to continue to have, you know, discussions around the past so that we can under the

stand, at least in a very detailed manner, the presence, and be able to focus where the Communist Party of Kenya is headed to. So whoever picked the copy of the book, we'll be able, we tried to serialize the book first based on time. So we were, we first, you know, when we are producing the past content of the book, and we have discussion, we want to serialize it in time. that you can see how we are moving from, you know, 1997 all the way to 20 to 2019, which we did, but then when we were just about to publish it, we realized that there was an essence to bring

out some logical flow in the book, other than just putting it in terms of periodic issues. So you realize, for example, if you open document one, you will go to a document that was published in 2003, And when you come back to the presence, you realize that the same statement that we wrote in solidarity with the people who are actually illegally detained by police during the street protest, the same is happening at this very moment. So we tried to bring some logical to the book and also to group the articles in a way that it brings out the very nature of the Communist Party of Kenya. So you could see that there is some groupings that brings out the primacy of the national struggle, the international character in terms of the party, and even the struggle for democracy. So in that way, we hope that we will be giving our readers a better way to synthesize the material. But of all the things we would need from our readers is, in fact, to write back to us in a very honest way

and to give us a honest analysis of the book, because now we hope that the editorial committee will be able to revise that book consistently every year to update it and to make it a viable tool for the comrades within Kenya and outside Kenya that are looking forward to build the Communist Party in anywhere anywhere in the world. So that makes its importance.

The second thing that necessitated this process is what I had told you about. We had a special central committee meeting that actually created what we were calling another resource committee to be able to resource the party in terms of improving our ideas of revolutionary fundraising. In fact, we are developing a separate document just to be able to be informed. the younger partners on what it means to do a revolutionary fundraising. For us, it is a key thing for in terms of them a party building. So the second effort was to try to make the Communist Party of Kenya more sovereign and even in terms of independent in terms of making decisions.

Remember, the leaders of the party that even, you know, when to join other factions in the party, every time they said the party was brought. broke. So we have been wondering, you know, comrades, if the parties broke, you run away and form, you know, association with the bourgeoisie that you're dealing with, or you try to, you know, to confront the difficult challenges within the party and find alternative ways in which you can resource the party to advance the struggle of the majority in Kenya. And primarily the fact that I think also I had alluded to it was we have done interviews before with the comrades, with journalists, with podcasts like guerrilla history, to try and put into perspective the history of the, you know, the communist movement in Canada. At least for that very moment, we lacked any written material to showcase other than the bits of publications that. that have been done with the Communist Party of Kenya before, mainly through our, you know, the quarterly publication, the ideology, which is not very old in the party.

Dikad is just barely two years in the party. So I think this book gives a primary reference to anybody in the world who wants to get into and study the national equation, then the history of the building of the communist, you know, party of Kenyan. In that way, I think we will be contributing to the wealth of informational knowledge that will be very useful for, you know, the upcoming carders in the party and those who are interested for the global communist movement.

Yeah, that's wonderful and incredibly important. Again, we urge people to get the book and again to reiterate the funds go to supporting the party. So we definitely encourage that. We're going to probably jump around a little bit chronologically in time and space as this interview goes on. But one of the things that you were talking about a little earlier was the crisis of 2022, the negative analysis that came out of it. And so before we go deeper into the history of the Communist Party of Kenya, I was just kind of wondering what the current state of the

party is. What are some of the things that came out of that analysis after 2022? And just what are some of the primary issues in Kenya right now that the Communist Party is organizing around? I think, comrade, one of the primary lessons that any communist party can learn from is that the communist party can only be built by encouraging a particular ideology that is driven by scientific thinking. Anything that is away from that can only build a false narrative about building a party of that magnitude. So the

Communist Party of Kenya has made a deliberate effort to reinforce its party school and even make it more strict in terms of its membership because like I think

any person who think that can accept effect members in terms of building the Communist Party anywhere in the world won't fail flat and that is something that it's important because sometimes people are in a hurry to ramp up numbers without knowing that communist parties are not mass parties. In fact, the Communist Party needs to be a Vanguard party.

Remember, in the book, you will realize that the Communist Party has a lot of history from the Social Democratic Party of Kenya. And in that sense, it has inherited the baggage of social democracy. And that's why even in terms of membership, you realize that we did fix that the Communist Party of Kenya is a mass member and a vanguardment. And the idea of fixing that mass member was to try and accommodate the majority of membership that had not gone through the party school from the social democratic bloc that we were delinking ourselves from. Well, we did not really realize that even though we had

massive membership in the party but if that membership is not recruited carefully it is not trained to prepare itself you know for perseverance in the process of organizing for our revolution

then unfortunately problems are bound to happen like they are in the party the second The lesson that also we did learn is the proportionality of membership. Remember, the Communist Party of Kenya was not started by the working class. In fact, myself, I am a product of student activism. I am from the petty bourgeoisie Barker. I got exposed to ideas of communism through my professor in the university. I got introduced to ideas of communism. is in through my desire to find an alternative. But in actual sense, in the University of Nairobi, we only form study circles to try and quench our curiosity

and to try and drive certain philosophical debates within the university. So you realize that the Communist Party of Kenya was started by the intellectuals and the student activists, but in actual sense, we must realize that the Communist Party must have its base in the working class, which of course is the class of the future. So if you want to have your base in the working class, then that must be reflected both in the membership of the party and also the leadership of the party. You cannot have a party that the majority of the leadership is from the Pentee-BJazi and you think that you are leading a party of the working class. You can also not lead a party where the membership, 90% of the membership,

is from either the peace and tree or the Petit Pujuzzi Stratum or even the intellectuals that, you know, have a high connection with the capital in the country, and you think you can drive, you know, a communist agenda. In that regard, you realize that we have passed at the liberty, you know, the policy in our party, that at any given time that at least, you know, two-thirds of the leadership and two-thirds of the membership

must always be from the working class. And that was deliberate based on mainly opportunism and revisionism that we have observed in the party in the past. And of course, the third one, and I think it's, without even belaboring, the point is if the learning in the party has to have its own, it has to have two parts of it. that thinks our study circles now, they are not just doing the theoretical work, then we now start to do practical work, because we thought that is a metaphysical separation between the theory of knowledge. So in actual sense, we have all our study circles that are run by the party school now must have the theoretical element and must have the praxis element.

In that way, then we can see that our quality of the cadars can continue to grow. Of course, we have also made a deliberate effort to say that to clarify, because it's important for us, to clarify what it means by operating a communist party within the Gujua space or the Gujua legality. because it brings confusion in the party. I remember when the struggle started, the internal struggle started in the Communist Party of Kenya, the few people who brought the confusion in the party, their primary asset that they were brought into the membership

is that they were recognized by the Bujua states. For us, we think it is an error for a Communist Party of Kenya to think that, you know, a Bujua state can legalize you to plan to overthrow it. In fact, we thought that was the most infantile talk that happened, you know, among these senior comrades, that they can think that by challenging the Bujua legality of the Communist Party of Kenya, they can actually throw our efforts to build the party. Because for us, the Communist Party do not need a nonsense to operate in that, in the political arena in Kenya.

In fact, the Communist Party of Kenya is deliberately organized, you know, to overthrow not just the dominance class, but the dominance ideas of the Bujiazzi. So it is silly for any party leader to start talking about the Bujua legal processes as an ad litre, you know, to drive a revolution in Kenya. So we have tried to debunk that kind of thing. because the new members of the party that have not operated when the party was underground, they got the party as a legal instrument.

You know, they fell a bit startled when they're saying now they don't have a legal space to organize. But I think the Kenyan state is quite aware of it, that even though they tolerate us to organize overtly, but they know that if they don't tolerate us to organize overtly, then they will have to deal with the communist overtly. So in that sense, we bring new. consciousness within the membership to try and understand and counter a false narrative of the Bujua legality.

Now, on the fourth element, of course, it was important for us to actually keep proper documentations in the party, which we thought it is important. And there are several initiatives now, several committees within the party, that tries to make sure that our documentation. is placed in order, and in fact, we now even have unveiled a small newsletter only for Katashit. We are calling it the Organize to try and encourage the issues of sharing experiences within the process of building the Communist Party of Kenya. Where are we at the moment, you know, first of all, it should be clear too. We are, we have our internal struggle in the

party. But also we have, you know, the struggle, the national struggle in Kenya. Then we have the international struggle. So that brings, that's what keeps them the Communist Party of Kenya alive to the fact that, you know, we are building the party. For our internal, for our internal struggles in the party, we have made it clear to all our friends and to all the organizations, that when you actually see squabbles, you know, problems in the Communist Party, not even the Communist Party of Kenya, but if you see people fighting, it must not be narrowed down to only squabbles of the individual communist in the party. It cannot be talked about as a difference between two communists or two individuals in the party. It must be understood, you know,

that it is the emergence of opportunism and revisionism in the party. After all, those frames of ours that are insisting of the unity of the Communist Party of Kenya, one of the basic questions we pose to them is, what use will a Communist Party of Kenya be united for the Kenyan working class if that unity is only based on opportunism and revisionism? And in fact, if even we join the Bujua state and the Bujua politics on an opportunist way, and interestingly, comrades, and sometimes we sit down and wonder if comrades can be, you know, just affected by wrong ideas for an instant or it is something that I've been with them in the party, but they have only been waiting for an opportunity to exercise those. wrong ideas because even though we isolated, you know, in Kenya, we, the dominance class, the ruling class in Kenya is the Comprando class. It is actually the people who are appointed

by the northern hemisphere leaders to dominate us. In fact, they are even too weak to suppress us fully. So they have to form, you know, alliances of recreation with them. the not to be able to effectively, you know, subjugate us fully. In last week, there was a motion that was being discussed in the parliament about the military bases for the British here. And it was obvious that, in fact, the particularity of the opposition, the male opposition and the leadership was how they supported that bill, that they saw it not as a threat to sovereignty, not as a threat to our national security as independence, but they actually saw the Batuk, the British military base that has been in that since independence, as a sign of security. So our question was, who are they protecting?

They must be protecting some people. And the only answer could be their support, they are protecting the small minority that dictate us today against the majority that will want to affect their own. So the Communist Party of Kenya is even much stronger today, and we hope that the faster growth rate that we have observed, we will continue to build a honest party that is rooted, not just in the working class, but in the majority of the workers in Kenya. You mentioned Booker about not only this rich history of the struggle within Kenya,

but you mentioned that there is also the international struggle. And I note that this book contains two major parts that deal with those kinds of topics and the analysis and as well as expressions of solidarity by the Communist Party of Kenya with various struggles around the world in response to events happening or observations on, you know, and analysis about those struggles. So I noticed part two is called appreciating the rising forces against capitalists, Western imperialism, neocolonialism, and neoliberalism around. the world. And then there's also part three in solidarity with communist and communist parties

advancing socialism in their countries. And so I'd like to talk a little bit about the importance and significance for the Communist Party of Kenya, of engaging with the external or international struggle. What are the goals and objectives? I notice, for example, there are quite a lot of statements here on the International Day of Al-Quds. There's more than one in different years. There's discussion of Israeli attacks on Gaza and a statement of protests from previous invasions and incursions and bombardments, as well as, you know, other kinds of statements here in support of, you know, Venezuela and its Bolivarian revolution. So this seems to be broadly anti-imperialist kinds of thinking and geopolitical thought, whereas the other section, is really about solidarity with particular other communist party groups, and there's a distinction that you're drawing. So I'm wondering if maybe you can talk a little bit about broadly the

sort of external, international dimensions of the struggle and why you have these two different sections and anything you want to say about that dimension of the book. First of all, thank you, Comrade Adnan. first thing is that even though our national struggle is primary but we must never forget the international struggle but because at one particular point also the international struggle will be pragmatic because the two have an dialectical sort of relationship

the second thing is that the communist party of Kenya has an internationalist character because what we are fighting for is global what we are fighting against is globalized capitalism. We are fighting against imperialism. We are fighting against neoliberalization that is sponsored by mainly the countries of the Northern Hemisphere, the dominance class there. So it's antivisive must be global. So what is it that we desire to replace with neoliberal globalization? The Communist Party of Kenya alludes that neoliberal globalization must be replaced

by socialist globalization that is anchored on solidarity, genuine respect, and mutual respect and independence of countries. So the antithesis of capitalism, which is socialism, must also be global. Now, having recognized that fact, then the second thing is, in terms of building the Communist Party of King, we must also take our internationalist duty, of course, very seriously, and we have to show solidarity with all the oppressed people of the world. I remember when I was a young, you know, a youth, we were reading comics about mainly the struggle of the people of Istimo in Indonesia.

And we read it on our way to the trajectory. I like comparing it because the same way it was given to us is the same way the struggle for the Palestinian people are given to the Kenyan people now. And it is the same way, also we will remember another important conversation during the struggle

from the national liberation in the African continent. There was that guy called Henry Kissinger. I think he belongs to jail for a moment. Only that the powers that B continue to protect him.

But he came to visit Mwanimu Julius Nyerere. And he came carrying out lethal capitalist propaganda. And the term, I'm mentioning three of them, because they are delivered in a very desperate way. So Istimo was not going to be able to fight to win, because they were going against a mass so they will be crashed before even they fight. Look at

Palestine. They are saying that Palestine will never win because Israel is very powerful. And Henry Kissinger mentioned that the apartheid regime in South Africa can crush every breathing thing pro Cairo to Cape. So in actual sense

the propaganda that any mercy illegal and just force can defeat the will of the people to fight for self-determination has already been debunked in history. East Timor 1. The National Liberation Movement,

especially the victor of Carnivalent that gave the last dent to the upper-th regime you know, why? So for us, it is possible. Palestinian people, can we? Because their struggle is just. And even the Communist Party of Kenya,

we shall win because only just struggles, win. So what I was trying to put across is that the Communist Party of Kenya will continue to start shoulder to shoulder because Communist Party of Kenya is against, you know, white settler occupation, the Communist Party of Kenya is anti-capitalist, it's anti-imperialist, and even now we continue to try and defeat the false narratives, the anti-poora propaganda that is being cropped by mainly the corporate media. And for that, I give Zionist bloggers, Zionist, you know, movement NGOs in Africa

that try to take people out of reality. You know, when I was growing up, the, every time they talk about Israel, you know, they said it's a blessed land. and that, you know, they are the God of given people and they can never be defeated. And they made sure that the solidarity with the Palestinian people are only in the mosque. At least I think in the last 12 years, that propaganda has lost its test

because now Al-Qut's day is not just a day of the Palestinian people. It is a day of resistance. It is a day to resist the arrogance of, you know, the unilateral power of the United States, because we see Israel just as a military extension of the United States. In fact, we say they are laundering the American taxpayers' money to create unnecessary instability in Palestine. Why I took quite a bit of time in Palestine, also it is important to understand that the Communist Party of Kenya do not support a two-state solution in Palestine, we are firmly for a one-state solution where the Muslims, the Christians,

the Jew can lead in a multicultural, democratic majority, and, you know, to build their own future together. We did not allow our colonizers here to, you know, to carve part of Africa to actually try to build their own, you know, experiment here. So that is important for people to understand that the Communist Party of Kenya takes its internationalist duties, you know, very, very, very seriously. In the continent here, the question that we have, I think most of our readers will see it,

which we have been trying to expose the last colony, at least not on your colonial, but now the last colony in the African continent. We can never forget the suffering of the Sahrawi people against the occupation of the legal occupation by the Moroccan kingdom. And again there you can see the propaganda at its core. When we were reading about the in the years, you realize that every time we were told that,

The issue about Sarawi people is not about Sarawis. In fact, we were told that the USSR, using the Algeria as a proxy, is trying to create a radical state against the United States, and that Polisario Front was just an outfit that was built by the USSR. Now history has, of course, debunked that, that it was alive, and it's interesting for Morocco to stay and try to clarify that no, no, no, they did not mean the U.S.S. They meant that Gaddafi now is creating another state. So they are jumping from one thing to the other.

And that is how they justify the occupation of the Sari people. So all in all, what I'm trying to say that the Communist Party of Kenya will continue to play his international role and bring out the contradictions in the geopolitics, at least from the perspective of the left. Remember, comrades, one of the issues that continue to divide the global left is the imperialist war. And they become a hot topic that sometimes, you know,

the left do not want to even talk about it, to try and find a solution in terms of agreeing to what needs to be done. For example, if you look at the history, the first international, the second and the half international, the third international, it was the debates about the first world war, the second world war,

and if the communists should need to stand in solidarity with the colonized people of the world. Now, when we are debating at the international level, Now, the proxy, there is even a tendency for people not to understand that the Ukrainian, the so-called Ukrainian, Russian conflict is nothing but a proxy NATO war against, you know, in Ukraine. People cannot even see that Selensky is just a dog of the United States. And every time Joe Biden asked, you know, could you do? jump, Selenstik will only ask how high because he is basically a puppet of that country. So another hot topic now in terms of geopolitics, comrades, of course, is the China-Africa

relations, which again, some people even understanding the concept of racism in its singular form and its general form, it's a problem because you cannot compare. Chinese racism and the racism in the United States. One is actually, you know, institutionalized. One is actually supported by the state, but the Chinese authority do not, you know, tolerate racism. In fact, if you are a racist and you don't have power to suppress me, I'm not very worried about you. But if you are racist and you hold the instruments of power to institutionalize it and continue to oppress me, that is a more dangerous scenario. And people also do not see that the African

comes to be the playground of the neoliberal NGOs that continue to, they want us to pick up their narrative. Well, they do not know that we have our own lenses to see that even though the Communist Party of Kenya

can criticize the Chinese socialist experiment but it can never be in the cynical and the racist way that the dominance class in the West will want us to do so today. In fact, we say sometimes when we are with them in collective meetings, we say that even if we reflect in history, and this is the truth comment, we are a lot of similarities in

Africa with the Chinese cultural revolution. And we even go further and say that maybe they should let us know if China has been able to murder and kill children like. the black Barack Obama did, you know, in Africa here, they were trying to bring him like the black, the black Indian who beat all odds to become the American president. And during the Barack Obama inauguration, I still see those videos of the black people from Africa are shedding tears. I think those tears can only be called crocodile tears after Obama added the African President Gaddafi. After Obama, now we call him the butcher of Afghan and Iraqi kids.

And his blackness has actually helped to debunk the whole race equation. That we must always focus that this world is divided and continue to be divided into two hostile classes. And the race issue is secondary to class. And I think that was an issue that came out very clearly after Barack Obama's administration in the United States. So we say that for the imperialist war, we will continue to debate, but the communist must never support the imperialist war. In fact, the war movement, mainly the global war movement, we must continue to interrogate it to understand. Because you remember the war movement, we are not pacifist to continue saying this, we think war is absolutely immoral.

We must make sure that we are fighting on the side of the oppressed majority of the people. So that is what I wanted to say, that the Communist Party of Kenya is an internationalist, a political party, based on a clear Marxist-Leninist ideology. And that is why the book gets to cover those important points. In fact, the last article was very interesting because remember when this fascist took power in Italy, this lady, the one we call her Mayan. Yes.

So she gave very heightened speeches that made her a darling of some of the people in Assylka. In fact, he was calling the poor Macron, the president of France, for having dominated West Africa. And some people thought that she was doing it to show solidarity with the people of Africa. So it was important for the Communist Party of Canada to clarify that, even though, you know, the rise of fascism is just not in isolation, but it comes as a byproduct and an advancement of capitalism. And we have to see that if the forces, even in the Kenya today, comrades, remember the crisis we have in Kenya now, where you've seen protest?

It is the crisis among the dominance class, the Comradeo class. and we have a kleptocracy in government and now being challenged by some fascist opposition in the streets. So the Communist Party of Kenya must give away for the Kenyan buses. And even in Europe, if the failure of the capitalist political parties, if the left is poorly organized, then the only other alternatives that will rise

is fascist political parties that try to, you know, from populism and salient to cataclysm. Yeah, two quick things. First, I think that you mentioned, Henry Kissinger belongs in jail. I would posit that he belongs somewhere else, somewhere far warmer and far more eternal. But the second point that I would also like to note,

you mentioned Meloni, the new leader of Italy, the fascist leader of Italy, in this address that she had where she was calling out French interference in West Africa and French neocolonialism in West Africa. I know exactly the moment that you're talking about.

She was holding up the CFA franc and saying, look, this is a neo-colonial currency. And online, all kinds of people, even on the left, were saying, look, this Italian politician is calling out the neo-colonial CFA franc. Isn't this great? And you have to think to yourself, okay, Mussolini I also would not have liked

a French neo-colonial currency in Africa. That doesn't mean that Mussolini was right on anything. You know, like, it doesn't mean that Mussolini was somebody that we should have supported. Mussolini wouldn't have liked the CFA Frank. Maloney doesn't like the CFA Frank. So it's very funny when we see this moment where you have some people who are kind of politically disengaged, but with broadly left tendencies, saying, oh, you know, I didn't know about the CFA Frank. Isn't it great that we have this European politician who's going to be leading a major country in Europe,

pointing out the neo-colonial nature of the CFA Frank? like, oh, yes, the CFA Frank is a neo-colonial currency. And what? And what? Like, to what end is this statement going? Maloney's statement was not in solidarity with Africa. Maloney's statement was from a fascist Italian perspective. This is completely different.

So I just wanted to point that out that if the listeners had missed that, this is like either immediately before or immediately after Maloney had come into power in Italy, that she was holding up the CFA Franc and, and. you know, holding, quote unquote, holding France to account for this. But Adnan, I know that you have a question about China, so why don't I turn it over to you? Yes, I did, and I really appreciated you bringing that up, because I found it very interesting that one of the articles in Section 2, Part 2, was exposing Western propaganda against Chinese influence in Africa. And of course, right now we're in a

where there is a great mobilization of cold war that could break out into more hot war in confronting China and we have heard a lot about China's involvement in

Africa through development projects the Belt and Road Initiative and there's been some claims about it being a debt trap kind of situation and a lot of discussion in, you know, Western circles about the supposed negative consequences of Chinese involvement and development projects. And so I think it would be very interesting

to have an African perspective on, you know, exactly how does it look from the perspective of those combating capitalism and their, you know, very. capitalism and the unjust state in the African continent, how do they view involvement of China in development projects, in infrastructure projects, you know, on continent? So maybe you could elaborate a little bit further what the Communist Party of Kenya's position was in confronting Western propaganda about China's involvement in Africa in this article. Thank you very much. First of all, it's important to note that the Congress Party of Kenya also takes a lot of lessons from the Chinese cultural revolution

under Chairman Mao. And one of the documents that we continue to study that inspires a lot is the peasant organizing and the unity between the peasants and the workers as a revolutionary force to challenge the dominant dictatorship of the minority against majority. In that case, we have a lot to learn from China socialist, you know, revolution. And in fact, in history, we see that China was colonized by one of the, you know, their ruthless imperialist, Japanese imperialism. And how they manage to get out of that, you know, condition to their country is only by having internal looking policies and safeguarding their countries against, you know,

the neoliberal, the offensive from the West. So having said that the Communist Party of Kenya cannot even say that we understand everything fully about the Chinese socialist experiment. But our desire and to understand it can only be through interactions with the Communist Party of China and we continue to read out to them to understand certain aspects of policies that are implementing based on their circumstances. In fact, we hold very dearly that we will not import any revolution from anywhere. The Kenyan Revolution will be down by the Kenyan Revolutionary,

and the Chinese Revolution is being carried out by the Chinese revolutionaries. And most importantly, is that the anti-communism hangover is still, you know, very high in our country. And whatever you see as, you know, anti-Chinese propaganda that is being piled mainly by the United States Empire through their, you know, neoliberal NGOs and, you know, corporate media, mainly BBC, Fox News, and they continue to pile lies and narratives, a devoid of truth in regards to China has been, you know, been debunked. For example, every time they talked about China manufacturing anything. There was always at this time to convince the African people. Everything from China is fake even before it arrives. So you just know it is fake, so there is no question about it. So long as it is from China, it is fake before it's alive.

And such false narratives can only stay for, you know, for a time. They can never last, you know, in time. But let us look at the arrival of Chinese capital in Africa. For me, it's important for us to do it. Because if we understand the arrival of Chinese capital in Africa, the Chinese arrive at other, give an alternative, not just even for the people. Why is it that even the dominance class, the elite in Africa, And the people in Africa, they felt a sense of relief by the arrival of, you know, Chinese capital. Because, first of all, China had a good policy, even though the Communist Party of Kenya still wanted them to change the policy, at least if it is to advance revolutionary organizing in Africa.

Remember, the official Chinese government policy is non-interferring. This is very important that the Chinese government do not interfere with the internal policies of any country in return of loans and aids. This is a breakaway from what we see with the twin Britain institutions that continue to interfere with the countries of Africa. In fact, the United States through the Infant World Bank devastated the African economy for many years without anywhere to turn to. In fact,

they turned us into desperation, death, disease, unemployment, and in that this is something that the arrival of in Africa gave a relief, not just from the people themselves, but even for the

leaders in Africa, that they find a way in which they can negotiate their way out of their bureaucracy and the parrot and stick policies of the United States. In fact, if I would say that looking it carefully, I think the United States and other European countries, they don't have any foreign policy. They only have interests. If it is not to their interest, then it's not good for them. If we study, for example, a country like Ingoal affects on the rival of Chinese capital care, you will see how it has contributed to a reduction of extreme poverty. If you go to Kenya, for example, the development in terms of agriculture has been quite not just fast,

but quality away from the financial assistance, the so-called development aid from the West that was mainly given with a lot of conditionalities and even bureaucracies. So you realize that the Western funded projects would take about 10, 20 years even to start in. But the Chinese funded projects are highly taking just, you know, one, you know, they're taking one year and they're ready on ground. And then you talked of something very important because they're saying that the China detra to Africa. In fact, that is a lie that can be actually debunked very easily. Because if you see on China loans to Africa, the Western media,

continues to lie about it. But in fact, the last time we checked only up 17% of African deaths, the white Chinese, about 60% of those debts belong to, you know, Paris squad, IMF, and work. And nobody wants to continue to check up those facts. For them, they want to repeat the same lies about China and see if they could continue to make them sound like they are truth. So for us, in the communist to Kenya, we also say that in terms of geopolitics,

and you see who in the globe is challenging the hege money of the dollar, the hedge money of the unilateral policies of the United States, the hedge money of, you know, the desire to have a wild, police. In fact, we are quite happy with the progress that is being made by the Brits. And this false, you know, idea of two cities that they keep on saying that, you know, China is not interested about it, that you must, you know, suffocate a people with war for one power to suppress the other for one to rise. We don't see that as, you know, a China way to deal with things. And in fact, recently, Adnan, if you remember, China gave a good peace proposal for the conflict that is now taking place in Ukraine.

And if you see what the United States have been doing to Saudi Arabia, it was for the first time that the world was happy to see the Saudis and, you know, the Iranians leaders, you know, that is how to make peace. but not to finance one, you know, factions to try and liquidate or to get the other. So I think we support the multipolarity, and we think that anybody who is organizing around the left must recognize that it is better to organize in a multipolar world than a unipolar world. Look at the lifeline that the China continues to give to the socialist experiments across the world. We don't know what will have happened without China to the Bolivarian revolution, for example. We don't know what to have happened, for example, terms of the survival of the Cuban socialist experiment. So the China continued today its international role to do lifelines to the countries that have been suffocated by illegal.

illegal blockades and, you know, illegal sanctions against the innocent people. And only one reason, basically, the desire for the regime change. Remember even the propaganda against the democratic people's republic of Korea. Sometimes we are in the leftist meetings in the world, but people don't want to talk about it. If you mention, you know, a female soon and people want to jump out of their steam, that is a wait a minute. Who is telling you, you know, what he's doing?

And, you know, they even now take up the word, the way that bigot called Trump used to call the Democratic People's Republic of Korea like the rocket man. But they don't even interrogate that without the government. capabilities of the

entrepreneurial ballistic missile in Pyongyang. Pyongyang will have been turned into upside down by American bombs. In fact, for a moment, we support the Pyongyang administration for reinforcing its nuclear

capabilities, because it is a dependence. I'm assuming the day that they realized that the Pyongyang do not have nuclear capabilities, that night did it be bombed to, you know, fight. It will be turned into a ghost city. So coming from the experience of the war in Korean Peninsula,

that of course the United States still feel ashamed today because they're lost, just they lost in Vietnam. And now they have created their mini colony in South Korea thinking that they would be able to dominate that. Look at these silly move by American, you know, diplomats in Hong Kong. We are just quoting more every time there. while we know that the reactionary class that was

kicked out by the CPC will perform their own experiment in Hong Kong when the United States have signed that deal of one China policy why are they thinking that they can go ahead deceiving the world that you know Hong Kong will be

away from the mainland even they are more offensive in South Tennessee to us it is totally you know it's an irritant to the to the Chinese state. And if it was even, remember, when the American administration was very uncomfortable with any military capabilities being installed in Havana, and they even threatened, you know, to sink the entire island for a moment. But now, for them, they don't see that Ukraine,

South China, Sea, South Korea, very important, you know, and the proximity to North Korea, the proximity to Russia, the proximity to China, if there is any responsible leader, they will never accept such provocations. In fact, they have tolerated the United States far much than any responsible state could have money to do so. So in actual sense, we say that we look at China as the supply of oxygen, for the socialist experiment and also the experiment that we can learn from. Any mistakes that they have made before in China, I think now there's a new hope with the resolutions of the CPC to a Congress

that just elected Xi Jinping. Look at those resolutions. And even they talk about the liberal democracy and the Chinese democracy, even if you look about the religion you know rights what they're calling the right of conscience that they are talking about there are far more mosques in China

so what are they telling us this this is just people trying to what I always repeatedly say that Brett if you want to kill a dog in your house you just continue baptizing bad names

you say this dog eats, you know, chicken. This dog eats, you know, eat some eggs. But you've made up your mind, you want to kill the dog. Just go kill the dog and say I kill the dog. Why do you want to build a narrative around it? As if, you know,

so the poor rabbit dog just sits there to be killed for nothing because you have been telling the people how bad the dog is, but you've made up your mind, you don't want it, you're going to kill it. So I think for us, China is a, a country we will admire and continue to learn for. Turning the focus back to the book, and this may get us close to the end of the conversation. This book is a tremendous resource, really. We don't have a ton of resources that are focused on building a communist party,

the struggles of building the Communist Party, the successes and failures in a specific struggle towards building a Communist Party, especially within the modern day. When people tend to look at experiences of building a Communist Party, many of these resources are 100 years old or even older. It doesn't take into account that the world has changed dramatically. And everybody is aware of that. I mean, the context of Russia, 19, 16, 17 is worlds apart from the context that we see today with U.S. imperial hegemony, but with an uprising China, this is

completely different than they had 105 years ago in Russia and then, you know, various other communist parties that were coming up faced at that time. So this book really is a resource for people that are interested in the experiences

of building a communist party in the present day and age. So I appreciate that this book was made if for no other reason. then for that. So what my question is, is how do comrades from all around the world utilize this resource? What are the successes and failures that they can find within this book, the building of the Communist Party of Kenya? What are the experiences that you've had that you think are universalizable in building communist parties more generally versus ones that are specific within the context of Kenya?

And what are the pitfalls, what are the failures that they really have to keep an eye out for? And how does having this as a resource in the present day and age benefit them? And why do you think that they should pick up this book for all of those reasons? Maybe I could open by saying that probably we must understand that communism is an inevitable reality that humankind will have to adjust. It is not whether we are willing or not, but it is the reality

that faces all human beings. The second thing is that the role of revolutionaries is quite clear in this book, that the first duty over revolutionary is to understand the society, not the way he wishes that society to be first, but to understand this, society the way it is.

So the only tools that are available to understand the society the way it is are two hostile tools to one another. Because if we talk about

philosophy, which we have clearly elaborated in the book, the philosophy that takes the primacy of ideas which is in the metaphysics and all other kinds of shade, can only reveal the world the way you wish in your head, but not the way the world is. The Communist Party of Kenya in the book reinforces that for any communist party to blossom

to even think to succeed, they must deploy the tools of Marxist and Leninist theory, to try and understand the world and the forces. that drive that change. If they do that, then there is one important way to start when you want to build a communist party. In fact, for the countries in Africa that do not have a communist party, they have been asking us, how do we start to build a communist party? The first thing is the clarity of ideas.

And that means at that moment, theory becomes the primacy to praxis. And only when theory takes ground that then you, then practice becomes, the practice becomes you again, primary to theory, and that continues in a cyclic and electrical manner. So in actual sense, what we are saying, that have, for you to start a communist party in your own country, start with organizing a group of people that can crystal clear, clarify, the theory of the revolution Maxis-Sat-Kennel. Only that, once that

happened, then they can start to organize the party. The second one, in learning, there has to be both theory and practice. All of them are on the opposite, and they go hand in hand. So, the Communist

Party of Kenya tends to apply that kind of, you know, theory of knowledge in terms of of advising is the immortal theory of the revolution of the working class, which is the Marxist, Leninist political ideology. That to me is universal for anybody who wants to build the communist patching elsewhere. The second one is that we do not choose our circumstances, and we must always understand two important factors when organized. For us, it has been problematic.

at least now it is clear to us through mistakes that the revolutionaries must understand the subjective factors of the revolution and the objective factors of the revolution because the objective factors of revolution is given to us by the dominating social political system which is capitalism for example capitalism has given us ugly houses even war zones, slum areas, it has given us every basic thing that we desire to change. And those are the objective factors of the revolution. The subjective factors is that people must be politically conscious

to know that these problems of capitalism, they have one root is that these are systemic. So we must continue to not just challenge their individual. For example, we have tracked certain developments in Kenya in the book, that how is it possible that we are a white colonial state? Then after that, we have a new colonial state with the black man and woman at the helm of it. Then we have now at the moment a new constitution. But the problems of the masses continued.

The government continues to change places, but the government remains the same. What could be the problem? It was a good analysis for us that everybody must know that even though the Kenyan society have a progressive constitution, but that constitution is an instrument of the dominance class and they will interpret it to only favor their class. Now, in terms of the successes of the Communist Party of Kenya, I think the expansion of the illegal space or the civic and political space in Kenya has given us a new movement to actually accelerate our propaganda and now and even have a people's way away from the other political parties. So in actual sense, we have to say that if you're a member of any Communist Party in the world, you must be a propagandist. You must advance at any given time.

I don't tolerate wrong ideas and just encourage them. In the Communist Party of Kenya, we say we continue to manufacture the propagandists because that is the only way that we continue to determine public opinion. Now, one major failure that we have continued to foresee is that there are some people within the party, like now opportunism in the party is one of the, you know, the most contributors or failures of most and divisions in the party. And that only is possible if people are not tempered ideologically. You know, we have to cultivate both ideas and feelings in the party. And this cultivation takes a long time to do it, and we must be patient. Lest we fall for anarchy, a tendency, less we fall for, you know, criminal issues in the

party. So the biggest failure that we have experienced since 1997, is that the Communist Party of Kenya has split several, at least three times, if we could say. And every time only one faction survives the history of that. In, for example, when we had, when we were a social democratic party, the youth win were they introduced us of the revolutionary years. They transferred only after, you know, four years.

and they continue to build the Socialist Party of Kenya. In 2013, we had the same problem. In 2019, we also have the same problem. But always one faction survives the time, and the other dies maybe in one, two, or three years, especially those that have taken the wrong policy. And that is something that we could be able to interpret. And I think also we need to make it clear

that the strict recruitment of cadres contribute to the successful party. And let the Communist Party be a Vanguard Party. For us, it is important. Do not open it up for floodgates for membership in terms of having numbers. But remember that even though we lead the party, but we do not decide. The masses always decide in the party. So if we want to advance the Communist Party or Kenya or any, other Communist Party in the world, we must always root our ideas. The ideas only becomes

a force when they have been properly cultivated among the masses of that society. So in our own errors, think we made an organizational error in terms of thinking that we could have a hybrid of a mass and a funded party at the same time. The second organization, era was in terms of the leadership of the Communist Party of Kenya must be at least, the majority must be from the working class or the polyteriate class. Another organizational era is that which now in the last 18 months continue to take ship is that we must have a training ground, a party school that continue to nurture and cultivate feelings and ideas in the party.

Those organization errors, if they can be solved, then I think we can have a stronger organization. And then on the mass line, I think also it's important that the mobilization is different from organization. We organize people along ideological lines, but when we are mobilizing people, we mobilize popular forces around the daily struggle of the masses. And during our popular mobilization, when we are mobilizing people either on land issues or on housing equation or on even trade union issues, during that process of mobilization, we can identify people that we can again recruit within our organization to train to lead those processes.

I think the only unity that will make the communist succeed is unity between the vanguard and which is the caddarship and the popular mass this. So important that we continue to have a good analysis, a scientific analysis in the society. I never want Congress to look at this as a success because It is not a success of the Communist Party of Kenya, but I think many people have paid a price. For example, look at certain documents. It was a big deal for us to be registered by the state. And that also brought in all ideas in the party.

So we were anxious to be registered because we thought it was a good thing for us. But again, that registration only shows progress that we are, and they are, We are having a popular force that can, you know, because every single thing that the Communist Party of Kenya has won in this country has been a product of the struggle. Nothing has been given to us by the state. So in actual sense, the legality of the Communist Party of Kenya is a progress. It is not a progress in itself. It's not an absolute progress. But we think it is important as well.

The book is Building of the Communist Party of Kenya, absolutely crucial, especially for any organizers, anywhere, anybody interested in building parties, working effectively in organizations, learning about Kenyan history and learning from our comrades in Kenya, highly recommend it. And, of course, the funds, as we said in the beginning, go to supporting the party. A booker, you are an honest, clear-headed, principled, dialectical, dedicated comrades. It's a pleasure and an honor to have you on. You always always. always are welcome here on guerrilla history. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and experience with us. Grace, thank you as well for being present. And just to wrap up, you know, we send our love and our support and our solidarity to the Communist Party and you know, all the comrades working in and alongside it. So thank you so much for being here. Thank you very much, comrades as well. And one of the episodes is important for me to mention that opened our eyes a great deal was the guerrilla history analysis. of the World Cup.

We had a lot of fun during the World Cup. Most of our comrades are not very enthusiastic about competitive sports. But for the first time, we are open discussions around the World Cup

on and putting it in fact, one of the things that you really caught during that episode was what was called the sports washing. And our comrades could see it in history, in fact, how the sports can be used as a tool, you know, to maintain

the status quo and highlight, you know, certain dominance ideas of a class. So we did not know that politics could be analyzed in that manner from the Communist Party of Kenya. We learned about and it is one of our favorite episodes in the guerrilla history podcast. I'm really happy to hear that. That was an episode, listeners, if you're interested in listening to that episode, even though the World Cup is now over, that was an episode that Adnan, myself and our friend Alexander Avina, Professor Alexander Avina, put together just in advance of the Qatar World Cup. And I think that, as Booker said, it was a very fun episode. I think that even if you're not super invested in competitive sport, it'll be a really interesting episode for you to listen to. So I'm really happy that you and your comrades enjoyed that.

And I have to say this book that, as Brett mentioned, is a terrific resource. And I'm hoping that one day I'll be able to get down to Kenya and have you and your comrades on the Central Organizing Committee of the Communist Party autograph my copy of the book, because that would be awesome. So that's something that I'm hoping to do in the future. Listeners, again, the book was the building of the Communist Party of Kenya. It was edited and published by Red Prince Publishing. It's available on Lulu.

And as Brett mentioned, the proceeds go to the Communist Party of Kenya. to help their operating expenses. So definitely, definitely get a copy if for no other reason than for that. Comrade Booker, it was a pleasure having you on the show. How can the listeners find you and the Communist Party of Kenya and the work that you're doing? First of all, we have a very, we update our website, so keep checking on our website, which is the Communist Party of Kenya.org.org. So if you look up there, you will see the latest statements and even the latest thinking on geopolitical issues. We are also very active on YouTube.

We have a YouTube channel, we just call the CPK TV, or you just check on Communist Party of Kenya. One of the popular points there, you will see the songs of the struggle, and you can link to them. And then we have the, in fact, this I think we are very glad for the solidarity we have received through our Twitter handle, which is the communist CE. In fact, I think in 2022, towards the end, I think to, you know, guerrilla history and other solidarity organizations across the globe, we got a lot of solidarity through our two. Twitter, you know, count. And in fact, we used to say, help us keep our headquarters open. So the Communist Party of Kenya headquarters is open to the solidarity we have received through the communist K-E through our Twitter hydro.

The same, we have an Instagram page, which is being run by the Young Communist League. It is a bit, you know, very versatile, especially in some music. And the comrades that continue to run, the Bandaisa crew now is one of the popular, you know, revolutionary artist organizations in Africa here, they continue. Some of you have even given a lot of congratulation message during the U.S. African summit when they did the parody of white America. So check it out on Instagram. And then we are on Facebook, the Communist Party of Kenya. And definitely you can also reach us info at communist party of Kenya.org or our international desk is international desk at communist party of Kenya.org. Thank you very much, Comrade Henry and Brett.

Terrific. So Adnan had to leave a little bit earlier, but you can find Adnan on Twitter at Adnan A. Hussein, H-U-S-A-I-N-N-S-O-N-O-PATS, the Mudgellis, which focuses on Middle Eastern Muslim Diaspora, but make sure that you find the MudgeList hosted by the Muslim's Global Society Project at Queens University and not the one hosted by Radio Free Central Asia, because that would be very bad if you ended up listening to the wrong one. Brett, how can the list of us find you and your other excellent podcasts? You can find everything I do at Revolutionary Left.

Radio.com. That includes Rev. Left as well as Red Menace and, of course, guerrilla history. Yeah, absolutely. Highly recommend the listeners to do that. As for me, listeners, you can find me on Twitter at Huck 1995, H-U-C-K-1995. I'll just mention that the LaSourdo book that Salvatore Engel de Morrow and myself have translated is now done being edited and it's just in the process of typesetting and then printing. So keep your eyes peeled for that. That'll be coming out from Isker books very soon. Free PDF. for low-cost print edition. You can follow Gorilla History on Twitter

at Gorilla underscore Pod, G-U-E-R-R-I-L-A-U-L-A-U-Skore-Pod. And you can help us keep our lights on by going to patreon.com forward-slash guerrilla history. Again, guerr-R-R-I-L-A history. And until next time, listeners, solidarity. Thank you.

Thank you.