Guerrilla History - Dispatch: Coup in Guinea w/ Abayomi Azikiwe

Episode Date: September 6, 2021

In this episode of Guerrilla History, we host a crash course on Guinean history to help provide context on the ongoing coup unfolding!  We are calling this a "Dispatch" as it's a shorter, more "in the moment" episode to ground us for current events.  Our guest is Abayomi Azikiwe, editor of Pan-African News Wire. Abayomi Azikiwe is the editor of Pan-African News Wire, and has had writings featured in numerous outlets.  Read Pan-African News Wire by visiting http://panafricannews.blogspot.com/.  You can follow Abayomi on twitter @panafnewswire. You can also find him on facebook at https://www.facebook.com/panafricannewswire or on instagram at https://www.instagram.com/abayomiazikiwe/?hl=en. Guerrilla History is the podcast that acts as a reconnaissance report of global proletarian history, and aims to use the lessons of history to analyze the present.  If you have any questions or guest/topic suggestions, email them to us at [e-mail]. Your hosts are immunobiologist Henry Hakamaki, Professor Adnan Husain, historian and Director of the School of Religion at Queens University, and Revolutionary Left Radio's Breht O'Shea.   Follow us on social media!  Our podcast can be found on twitter @guerrilla_pod, and can be supported on patreon at https://www.patreon.com/guerrillahistory.  Your contributions will make the show possible to continue and succeed! To follow the hosts, Henry can be found on twitter @huck1995, and also has a patreon to help support himself through the pandemic where he breaks down science and public health research and news at https://www.patreon.com/huck1995.  Adnan can be followed on twitter @adnanahusain, and also runs The Majlis Podcast, which can be found at https://anchor.fm/the-majlis, and the Muslim Societies-Global Perspectives group at Queens University, https://www.facebook.com/MSGPQU/.   Breht is the host of Revolutionary Left Radio, which can be followed on twitter @RevLeftRadio and cohost of The Red Menace Podcast, which can be followed on twitter @Red_Menace_Pod.  Follow and support these shows on patreon, and find them at https://www.revolutionaryleftradio.com/.     Thanks to Ryan Hakamaki, who designed and created the podcast's artwork, and Kevin MacLeod, who creates royalty-free music.

You remember Den Bamboo? No! The same thing happened in Algeria, in Africa. They didn't have anything but a rank. The French had all these highly mechanized instruments of warfare. But they put some guerrilla action on. Hello and welcome to a Gorilla History Dispatch. This is a little bit of a new series, let's say, or a new format for the show. But based on current events, we thought that it would be something that would be very useful for the audience. So for those of you who are unaware, Gorilla History is the podcast that acts as a reconnaissance report of global proletarian history and aims to use the lessons of history to analyze the present. I'm your host, Henry Huckimacki, joined by one. one of my usual co-hosts, Professor Adnan Hussein, historian and director of the School of Religion at Queens

University in Ontario, Canada. Hello, Adnan. How are you doing today? I'm doing well. Thanks so much. I hope you're well, too, Henry. Yeah, things are busy, but good. But we have some very interesting events that have been unfolding over the last 24 hours, which is why we are putting together this dispatch, which is going to be a little short, condensed historical context, basically crash course on Guinea. Over the last 24 hours, we've seen a coup unfolding in Guinea. The longtime president, 11 years president of Guinea has been deposed by the military, and it is very much a still unfolding situation. So we want to give the historical context of Guinea and of these characters that are in play here so that the listeners, as they see this story unfold,

understand a little bit more what's going on. Before I introduce our guest, I just want to go through a couple of quick headlines so listeners who haven't seen the news at all because Guinea is not very well covered in Western media whatsoever, have at least an idea of what the topic is going to be today. So from Reuters, we have elite Guinea Army unit says it has toppled president. Special Forces soldiers appeared on Sunday to have ousted Guinea's long-serving president telling the nation that they had dissolved its government and constitution, closed its land and air borders.

From the Associated Press, we have soldiers detained Guinea's president, dissolved government, mutinous soldiers in the West African nation of Guinea detained President Alpha Kande on Sunday after hours of heavy gunfire, rang out near the presidential palace in the capital, then announced on state television that the government had been dissolved in the parent coup d'etat. And from Al Jazeera, we have Guinea coup, military arrests president dissolves government,

special forces say they dissolved the constitution and shut the country's land and airborders. And I actually have something of a personal connection to this story. One of my absolute best friends is in Guinea right now doing some phylo virus research and is currently sheltering in place as the situation unfold. So, Emily, if and when you hear this, just know that I'm standing in solidarity with you, and I'm hoping that you stay safe. But now we're going to turn to our guest who basically what happened is I reached out to some of my pan-African friends and said, who's someone that can give us this historical context on Guinea? And my good friend, Margaret Kimberly from Black Agenda Report, and Margaret, if you're listening to this and when you listen to this, I love you, you're just the best. Margaret Kimberly came back immediately and said,

you have to bring on Abiyomi Asikaway, who is the editor of Pan-African Newswire to talk about the situation. And so I reached out, and here we are just a few hours later. Hello, Abiyomi. Welcome to the program. Thank you so much for the invitation. Absolutely. And I'm very happy, again, that Margaret put us in touch with you

because this is a situation that we really do need somebody who is well-versed in the subject to give us this historical context. So to get us into the conversation, I'm just going to turn it over to you, Abiyomi, and say, why don't I allow you to give a little bit more of the context of this coup beyond just these headlines and a few of the blurbs that I read? And then get us into that historical context that's going to help us understand the situation.

Can you talk about the colonial era a little bit, independence of Guinea, all of the coups of the post-independence period because they actually hadn't had Democratic elections until 2010. Can you just give us a little bit of that historical context as well as filling in some of those gaps on the coup that's unfolding?

Once again, thanks for the invitation. And Margaret Kimberly, I have worked with her, shared panels with her at various conferences across the United States. I'm very glad that she had confidence in me to speak on this subject. Guinea is a very interesting country in West Africa. It was colonized by France.

I was officially conquered, so to speak, by 1893, and the French incorporated it into their French colonial system throughout West and Central Africa. In 1893, there was resistance to French. anti-colonialism. One of the best known figures, of course, is Almami Samori-Turray, who is a historical figure in regard to anti-colonial struggles. And also, he was a guiding figure intellectually for the revolutionary movement that developed in Guinea during the post-World War II period. Secretary Ray, President Ahmed's secretary Ray, was the founding member of the post-colonial Ginnian state. In 1958, the French had proposed a referendum where African countries would continue to be under French domination as part of a broader French community.

Guinea, under the Democratic Party that was co-founded by Ahmed Secretary Ray, voted no and rejected the French colonial plan for a continued colonial and neo-colonial rule in Guinea. This set the country apart at that time for most of the other colonies that had fallen under French rule. Now, we could look at Algeria in North Africa, which had been under French rule for approximately 130 years. And then in the post-World War II period, there was agitation on the part of the Algerian people for national independence. France responded with ruthless repression. Thousands of people were killed, even prior to the beginning of the armed struggle. that was launched by the National Liberation Front, the FLN in 1954, and that lasted for eight years, estimated that up to a million people that could have been killed.

Also in Cameroon, an organization called the Union of People's of Cameroon, the UPC, was also a revolutionary organization attempted to wage an armed struggle against French colonialism during the late 1950s and early 1960s. And two of the leaders, Ruben Naoombe, one of them, Ruben Naoombe, was assassinated by French intelligence forces, and there were other leaders who were also assassinated by the French. So when Guinea struck on its own in 1958, France sought to undermine the whole post-independence process. They withdrew all their technicians, they withdrew all their equipment, and they also created a situation where it was very difficult for Guinea to gain credit on an international

level. At that time, Dr. Kwame and Krumah had just taken power in Ghana, which is a former British colony, and he was a close comrade with Ahmed Secretary, and they agreed to loan Jenny, 10 million pounds, which was at the time probably about $25 million, which helped tremendously the tide over the country based upon, you know, its needs in the aftermath of the French colonial withdrawal. Then by 1960, many of the other countries did gain independence who had been under French colonialism, but they did not, many of them, did not have the same political approach that Guinea took. Guinea was a pan-Africanist country.

Secretary Ray had alliances with Moldibo Keita, who was from Mali, which was also a former French colony, along with Dr. Kwame and Krumah. And they set up a Ghana-Genny Union initially in 1958, and by 1960, they expanded it to the Ghana, Guinea, Mali Union. These were like forerunners to the formation of the Organization of African Unity. So Guinea proclaimed itself to be on a socialist path of development. They supported the national liberation struggles. They were on alliance with China, with the Soviet Union, with Cuba,

and other socialist countries and national liberation movements around the world. Well, of course, that gives you some basic background about the country, but it becomes very complicated after that point because the pressure that Guinea was under globally impacted the character of the governance inside the country. Guinea became a one-party state, the PDG, the Democratic Party of Guinea, and they developed their own ideological approach to socialism and, Pan-Afghanism. And Secretary Ray stayed in power from 1958 until April of 1984 when he suffered a heart attack while he was in Saudi Arabia in high-level economic and political discussions. He was then transported to the United States, and he died, according to official sources, on the operating room in a operating room in Cleveland, Ohio. Right after his funeral, we had the first military coup that was led by two lower-ranking military

officers. Lansana Conti was the dominant personality in that coup, and they essentially overturned everything that the PDG had done. over the previous 27 years. So since that time period, Conte remained in power. He was ruthless in the way in which he administered the country. He died, and of course, there were subsequent coups. The election of 2010, in my opinion, was not the first democratic election in Guinea

because the whole democratic process started when they voted to reject French colonialism in 1958. So it depends on how you look at the whole question of democracy in Africa and also in terms of international community. Just to briefly sum this up. That's a very fair point, by the way. That is a very fair point. First democratically elected leader, I should have said. Yes. Okay. Well, just to wrap this up, according to reports that have come out that you cited, Mamadie Dumboya has apparently taken power as part of the special forces of the Gideon military. There are rumors that he was a part of the French legions, that he had some training or some connection with the United States.

Africa Command, Africa, which has troops deployed all over the African continent. since 2008 when it was officially inaugurated. So, yes, we're waiting to see how things develop. According to those reports, the Ministry of Defense indicated that the coup had not taken place, that it was being resisted. But that was kind of hard to believe since they had given a press conference with President Alphacande showing him in detention sitting on a sofa. So we don't know exactly what the future plans of this military junta is.

They're calling themselves the National Committee for Reconciliation and development. And they're claiming that they're against corruption. One thing that turned even more people against President Kande was his altering of the Ginnian constitution during 2020 in order for him to serve a third term in order. office. And that's why a number of the opposition groups in Guinea are supporting the coup, which is going to complicate the situation vis-a-vis the role of the economic community of West African states, which is a regional organization, as well as the African Union, which is based in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. So others can add on to this, you know, brief historical

synopsis of Guinea from 1893 to 2021, but we can open up now for others to comment. Absolutely. And thank you very much for that brief, but really cogent and important survey. I especially appreciate your remarks that there was a democratic process in rejecting the French colonial plans to create that community and that as a result, Guinea post-independence paid a very heavy price as a result of French withdrawal and isolation in the international community. So that's very important and also emphasizing how much they were part of a pan-Africanist and anti-imperialist, anti-colonial politics both in Africa but globally is very important in situating those years between 58 and 84. So I think we do need to turn to this kind of

post secouture period and its complications and particularly this last decade when we think of Alpha Conte's presidency. Perhaps you could expand a little bit. You mentioned that the attempt to, well, the successful attempt to change the Constitution, to enable a third term and to win the last round of contested elections. I know there are controversies around that.

It's been disputed. You know, made him unpopular. But that's just at the level of politics in terms of elections and who's in leadership, I'm wondering over the last decade, what has happened to turn at least factions of the military and perhaps some elements of the populace? You know, we don't know how popular, you know, the coup is or will be, whether there are a lot of popular forces that will rally. You alluded to some of the opposition, you know, parties and powers aligning potentially with it. But what has happened in this last decade to sort of turn?

somebody who was known as a, you know, a human rights figure, a dissident under, you know, late Ture era against him. Yes, I think that's important that Alphacande was an opposition figure during the period of the Democratic Party of getting a rule. He spent a lot of time in France and became well acquainted with the French. political and economic system. Guinea is facing a similar problem that other African countries are facing across the continent. There's been, prior to the recent period, there was enormous economic growth from a quantitative standpoint in many different African states. However,

qualitatively, you have to deal with the distribution of the economic wealth. You also have to deal with the sustainability of economic growth within these countries. Guinea, along with many other countries in Africa, are still dependent upon the Western capitalist system for the terms of trade and also the pricing of the commodities in which they export. Guinea is a large export of bauxite and aluminum.

And aluminum prices have skyrocketed, interestingly enough, just in the last 24 hours since the cool. I mean, it makes you wonder, you know, what is behind all of this. So, yes, anytime you have an unequal distribution of wealth, you have a political and economic system that is unsustainable, you have high unemployment among young people, and also a failure to harness agricultural production in the way in which not only can keep people in rural areas involved in agricultural production, but also make it profitable for farmers and agricultural workers to survive. Then, of course, in the urban areas, there's the problems that are related to unemployment

and other issues. So I think Guinea is no different than the other countries in the economic community of West African states. About six years ago, they were hit hard by the Ebola virus disease pandemic that struck principally three countries Sierra Leone, Liberia, and Guinea-conicry. Thousands of people died. Many more were sickened during that whole period. This had a profound economic impact on the economic trajectory of the country. So the Army, the special forces, are attempting to tap into that discontent, are related to

corruption, the lack of genuine economic development and economic sustainability. So this is the problem that Guinea is facing in other countries in the West Africa region. Now, what's going to be interesting is to see how ECOWAS, even though they've condemned this coup, what can they actually do to reverse it? Because we saw a similar pattern in Mali last year, where the civilian elected government was overthrown. There was a lot of different opposition to this government and mass demonstrations and so forth. But they set up a interim government, but that too has been changed. So the principal figure in Mali right now is a military personality. So we be very interesting to see what ECWAS can do about this current situation.

because over the last two decades, the African Union, which was founded in 2002, so almost two decades, has been bitterly opposed to military seizure of power. These incidents were quite common during the 1960s, 1970s, even into the 1980s. I mean, there were coupes against Patricia Lumumba in 1960 in Congo. coup against Dr. Kwame and Khrum in 1966. In 1968, Moldibo Kenta was overthrown in a military coup d'etat. And there have been many others. The president of Uganda, Milton Obote, was overthrown by Idi Amin in 1971. And we can go on and on about these military interventions in politics. So it's a very complicated situation. And we'll have to wait and see. exactly what happens over the next few days, internally, whether there's uniformity within the

military ranks themselves, what opposition forces will continue to support the coup, and what would be the economic impact vis-a-vis Ekawas and the African Union, as well as France, because Guinea still has close relations with France as well. You've given me a lot of threads to chase here, Abilomi. I mean, to many threads. So I'm going to start punting things back and perhaps we'll just kind of ping pong these ideas off of each other. But I guess the first thing I'll mention is Ebola, since I was an Ebola researcher. Absolutely, Guinea was one of the hardest hit countries ever. I mean, that was the biggest Ebola outbreak of all time. And Guinea was just about the hardest hit of the countries.

And there was a lot of popular discontent at the handling of the pandemic of Ebola in Guinea. And it also did lead to massive economic issues because it kind of was almost like a microcosm of what we're seeing right now with the pandemic of them, not wanting to shut down everything right away, then realizing that it was kind of spiraling out of control, then having to close down everything, the economy going into the tank, trying to reopen because the economy was in the tank, more people getting sick, having to close down the economy again. It sounds somewhat familiar to what we're seeing these days.

But moving on to the resource point, you mentioned bauxite and aluminum. Depending on whose estimates you look at, Guinea is either the largest or the second largest resource of bauxite in the world. And interestingly, even before, this coup happened. If you look at the commodity prices in London, aluminum prices were up 38% this year even before the coup based on consumer demand. But as soon as this coup happened, within the last 24 hours, and I should just mention that we're recording this on September 6th for people that are listening to this afterwards, within the last 24 hours, aluminum prices have already hit a 10-year high. And it appears that they're going to keep spiking as long as there's this

turmoil. In regards to the coups, as you mentioned, there's a long history of coups, but even this year again, we've had four coups within this region, kind of west, west central Africa, including two in Mali within the last year, this coup inside a coup, as you kind of alluded to. So I know that there wasn't really a firm question there, just a couple of follow-up points, but perhaps we just kind of want to kick those ideas around a little bit. more. In regards to economic issues, I mean, Alphacande, the president, now deposed president, massively increased the mining capacity for bauxite in the country. I say that they have the biggest or the second biggest resource of bauxite anywhere in the world. And for people

that are unaware, bauxite is used in the production of aluminum. It's kind of like the precursor mineral for it. But Alpha Kande was really the one who massively expanded the capacity to extract that bauxite. But there's been a lot of criticism of one, how that wealth that comes from the extraction of the bauxite trickles down through the populace, as well as impacts on the rural population. As we see in a lot of these extractive economies, the rural populations in these mining areas

often have extremely deleterious effects as a result of these extractive processes on them. So there's just a few ideas out there about, you know, economic issues that were already bubbling up in the area, coups that have been going on in the area in no small part due to the imperialist powers, like France, for example, definitely had some fingerprints in Mali, not necessarily saying that they were pushing for the coup, but their interventions in the region certainly did assist in that coup becoming realized, as well as the resources that we are talking about here. Is there anything that you want to, you know, chip in on that either Adnan or Abiomi? Well, just briefly, the area is extremely rich in regard to mineral

resources. In Guinea, of course, we've been talking about bauxite and aluminum, but they also have strategic minerals as well, like gold and diamonds. And in neighboring countries, for example, Mejir, France controls the production of uranium there. It was a company called Arriva, which was based in France, which had almost total control of the uranium production. So we can see that France still plays a very dominant role in the overall economic, life of the entire economic community of West African states. There was an attempt to form a single currency for the ECOWAS region a couple of years ago, but it was never able to really soliterize because of the legacies of British and French colonialism,

perhaps being at odds against each other. Nigeria did not want to necessarily go along with it because they have their own economic interests based upon their own national currency. Nigeria, of course, is a large oil-producing state, which is undergoing a lot of internal turmoil as well. Chad, which is another country that experienced a coup, although it was a palace coup after the death of the leader who had been in power for many, many years. His son now has taken control of the country. And of course, there was objections to that on the part of the African Union, but that same system has not been removed so far. So these are some of the complexities that we have to look at in any attempt

to analyze the history of Guinea and other countries throughout the region. Even under the first post-independence government of President Ahmed's Secretary Ray, there were extreme difficulties in regard to economic development. And that is why a lot of young people left Guinea and went to neighboring countries such as Liberia and Ivory Coast, and of course fuel the whole opposition to the PDG. In comparison, during those times, if you compared the economic life in Guinea to Courte d'Ivoire, for example, people would say, well, Ivory Coast was a success story, and Guinea, with its socialist path or orientation, was a failure. So when you have these type of competing legacies in regard to the history of colonialism, and at the same time, different

economic strategies for development, you're going to have these type of problems. But the West typically has the same approach that it has maintained since the 1950s and 1960s. They want to maintain full access to the mineral resources, to the agricultural commodities, and they want to get them on the terms that are favorable to the United States, to Britain, France, European Union, and so forth. So this is the problem that Guinea is facing, and it's unfortunate that these military forces that have been built up inside of Guinea, inside of Mali, all have the impact of French and United States training, arming, political orientation as a part of their whole apparatus.

You look at Mali, for example, every leader who has been involved in staging a coup since 2012 were trained in Pentagon military colleges inside the United States. They participated in joint military exercises with the United States, and France, whether it's Operation Flint Lock, which the United States does on an annual basis, Operation Barconi, which is a purported anti-terrorism task force that is assembled and headed by France. So, All these factors are serving to destabilize and hamper the development of these countries in the West Africa region, with the emergence of the jihadist organizations, which are challenging the authority of the governments in Burkina Faso and in Mali. It really leaves the opening for these imperialist countries to come in under the guise of assisting in a national security apparatus of the country.

country, and also to fight terrorism. So on the one hand, you have these jihadist organizations, many of which have been funded by allies of the United States, for example, Saudi Arabia. They have bases there. They have offices in Saudi Arabia. Yet, when they attack countries, whether they be in Africa, whether they be in Syria or Iraq, the U.S. can easily utilize these realities to justify military interventions. We see it in Iraq. We see it in Syria, the support of Saudi Arabia and Yemen, and we're looking

at similar situations in West Africa is also spreading to the Southern Africa region in regard to what's happening now in northern Mozambique, in Cabo Delgado, where they're battling in an insurgency there that's prompted the intervention of Rwandan defense forces, as well as the Southern African development community, standby forces as well. So there's a lot to consider in this whole process. Ebbeomi, I'm going to jump in real quick. I know Adnan and I have a lot of other things that we want to ask about, but since you brought up France and Afriqam, Afriqam is something that any time it's brought up, I can't let the opportunity pass to, you know, just continue to bash it a little bit more. So we're talking about this carnal that has conducted the coup, is at the head of this coup,

Mamadhi Dumboea. He was a French foreign legionaire for some years, having served in the military for 15 years. That's not all necessarily within the French Foreign Legion, having served missions in Afghanistan, Ivory Coast, Djibouti, Central African Republic. He's also apparently received training at the International Security Academy in Israel, as well as further military training in Senegal, Gabon, and France itself. This is somebody who's deeply entrenched within the imperial core proxy forces, let's say. And it's also notable that I've seen several reports coming out from, you know, not our mainstream sources, but our alternative sources, that many of these

individuals within this elite unit are individuals who have trained extensively or were essentially contractors with AFROM. So I would just like to highlight that fact a little bit more, the pernicious role of AFRICOM within West Africa, particularly, the role of France within West Africa. And Adnan, I think that you also had something that you wanted to add on this. So maybe you want to add on to the question. Well, no, we should let our guests talk about that. But I definitely would like to follow up a little bit more about the pivot to Africa if there is, you know, such a thing that seems to be coinciding with the withdrawal from Afghanistan. Obviously, they're not going to really completely withdraw. If they can find ways to use proxy forces and foment, you know,

kind of their policies within but there's clearly they're looking at other global regions where some of the same pattern and we know that it goes way back you know to the 70s and 80s of Saudi Arabia funding extreme right-wing jihadist type forces in Africa as well so that's like an old playbook that now they're extending even into West Africa it's worth thinking more about it so I'd love to hear your thoughts on this issue as well well well In regard to Africa, it's still based, as far as I know, in Stuttgart, Germany. And it was formed in 2008 in February of 2008. And none of the African countries at that time were willing to allow their territories to be used as a base.

That changed, of course, since 2008 over the last 13 years. Now we have a base in Djibouti, which is in the Horn of Africa, Camp Le Monnier, which has both French and Afrikan troops, thousands of them stationed there. Also, China has set up a military base in Djibouti as well, which is quite interesting. In fact, when that happened a few years ago, the Voice of America, surprisingly enough, contacted me for a comment on that. one of the few times have been contacted by the VOA. But yes, since that time, they've been doing the joint military exercises. They've been involved in training various African military structures. And they have been doing a lot of clandestine work, which is hidden from the American population.

For example, in 2017, there were several green berets that were killed in the West African state of Niger. And there was never any credible explanation in regard to what happened in that incident. They never really explained what had happened. And, of course, Trump being president at the time did not give a full explanation in regard to what happened. Also, in Somalia, the United States has been heavily involved in training the African Union mission to Somalia, Amosam, which is there to fight against, well, initially they were there to fight against the Islamic Courts Union, and then there was a split in that grouping, and Al-Shabaab came out of that as a resistance movement against the Amasam forces. which is largely composed of Ethiopia, Uganda, and other countries, which have substantial militaries in Africa. In recent years, al-Shabaab seems to be aligned with al-Qaeda,

one faction and another faction with ISIS. So the war has still not stopped. And of course, just recently, the Afghan Union has agreed to continue the Amazon mission for another, I believe, six years. So when is this occupation going to end, despite the fact that the U.S. has put a considerable amount of money into Somalia, propping up the Amazon forces, and doing other types of, quote, nation-building, unquote, work in the Horn of Africa.

So they're involved all over. Ethiopia right now is being destabilized. The northern region, the Tigray region, is involved in a conflict against the central government. We know that the TPLF was largely installed by the United States under George Bush Sr. in 1991 after the collapse of the Soviet – well, actually, after the collapse of the Workers' Party of Ethiopia government, which took place in 1991. and, of course, the Soviet Union collapsed just a few months later. So, yeah, Afriqom is very active on the African continent. Mahamadu Buhari, who's the president of the Federal Republic of Nigeria, several months ago, asked, could Afrikaum relocate their headquarters to Nigeria

to deal with the instability that's taking place in the north and central part of the country, which was quite a shocking statement to be made by Congress. country which supposedly has the largest economy on the African continent. They're saying the Nigerian economy now is larger than the economy in South Africa and Ethiopia and Egypt. And at the same time, has one of the largest military forces on the African continent. Nigeria has oil. It has natural gas. And he's like thrown in a towel saying, you know, he can't handle the Boko Aram insurgency. which is also fractured at this point, as well as the general lawlessness that's prevailing in parts of northern and central Nigeria in regard to kidnapping and schoolchildren and other types of crimes. So it's a real major problem. And my opinion is that until the African Union can form its own African standby force that is independent of the U.S., independent of France, It's really not going to solve the crisis that exists on the African continent. It's no way they can be dependent upon countries which historically have been involved in colonialism,

enslavement, and neo-colonialism on the African continent, expecting these states to provide the security support that's needed to stabilize these countries, when in fact these countries are still depended economically on the world economic system, which is still dominated by the U.S. and countries in Western Europe. Yeah, that's a really helpful survey of the way in which this Guinea figure, this figure in Guinea, fits within a wider network and pattern of neo-imperial involvement on the African continent. So, Adnan, are you historian? I am, yes.

Okay, well, of course, you know, you know, of course, a lot of the things that I'm talking about in terms of the role of Europe and the United States in Africa, West Asia, in regard to, you know, fostering this dependency, even during the post-interdependence period. Yeah, yeah, that's right. I mean, so it's an endemic pattern that's very hard to break, and so, you know, we'll be looking. It'll be very interesting to see now maybe coming back to Guinea. is thinking a little bit if perhaps you could describe what you see as the nature of current divisions and, you know, in Guinea so that we can understand, you know, these opposition parties and their potential collaboration with this, you know, military faction within the military there that's taken this coup. You know, how would you describe, you know, the nature of Guinea's public?

politics if you were to do a kind of survey what what who's who and what's what and whether these are principally ideological differences you know i can imagine opposition during the secouture period may have taken the flavor of ideological differences because it was a very conscious ideological line of an african socialism that they were developing but you know subsequently i wonder if the waters have been muddied you know how would you characterize the nature of kind of political identity and contestation in Guinea that would help us see, you know, what are the alignment of forces on the ground within the country? You know, are these principally ethnic, ethno-linguistic? Are they just factions that have positioned themselves vis-a-vis,

you know, kind of corrupt, you know, surplus from the neoliberal exploitation of their mineral resources and whoever is facilitating that gets their sort of cut and there's like factional disputes over controlling that. Maybe you can give us a little bit more of a sense of how you would analyze Guinea at present. So that'll help us understand who's going to be involved in determining the fate of the country internally as we go forward. Well, I think all those factors that you mentioned play a major role in all of this. The PDG, legacy doesn't appear to be a major factor in Guinea in politics today. Of course, there are people there who still identify as members of the Democratic Party of Guinea, but they have not been

able to mobilize and organize to the point of even contesting electorally to retake power in Guinea. Many of the other parties that exist there are parties that are pro-Western or pro-French, pro-American. And of course, the fashionism is largely based upon staking out territory within the state in order to benefit from the economic agreements with the international community. This is an unfortunate situation, but that appears to be the reality. Now, the military itself is part of the governing structure, and there's this tension between the political elites, so to speak, and the military forces inside the country. Even within the military itself, there are divisions, lower-ranking military officers

have a tendency to be not satisfied with events involving the higher-ranking elements of the military, the elite forces within the military. So we've seen historically in Guinea as well as in other countries in West Africa where you've have coups among lower military ranking offices against higher military ranking offices who are in alliance with political elites. So we'll have to study the response to the seizure of power by the National Committee for Reconciliation and Development, which political parties support. them, which the political parties are in opposition to them. And at that point, we'll be able to get a clear view in regard to how the politics of the country is going to move forward. But I don't see in the short term an effort on a part of the population to actually seize power in its own interest. There are too many divisions within the country and with the French

and U.S. involvement within the military, this is going to hamper and stifle any genuine political movement from emerging in Guinea. If we look, for example, in Burkina Faso, there was a huge uprising there about six, seven, about seven years ago, where the gentleman who had overthrown and assassinated Thomas Sankar was overthrown and ran out of the country to Ivory Coast. And many of the parties that claim to be Sankarist, revolutionaries and following the tradition of Thomas Sankar, were still not able to unite to take power in Burkina Faso. The person who became leader had strong ties to international finance capital. So it's going to take a lot for these developments to reach fruition. In Togo, for example, another French colon. There was

huge uprising about three years ago there. And popular organizations emerged. They were against the political dynasty that's been in control in Togo for approximately 50 years, Yadama dynasty. And yet, you know, these same elites are able to maintain power because they control the economies, they control the military apparatus, the security apparatus. So it's going to be very difficult to have a real progressive national democratic movement come to power in these countries.

Final question that we have time for. And this is one from our co-host, Brett O'Shea, of Revolutionary Left Radio, who wanted to join us for the conversation. But unfortunately, this being a very, very last minute episode, because as we've mentioned multiple times, this is a situation that's still unfolding. We basically put this together as quickly as we could. this question comes in from Brett absolutely it's been a great conversation but this last question comes in from Brett and it's a great question he's wondering how the major powers are going to be

viewing this coup as far as we can tell because not a whole lot is known about this colonel who has basically seized power in this coup we don't even know how the coup is going to unfold from here it's still a developing situation but of course major powers right now are all going to be denouncing the coup. They're going to be denouncing any sort of military intervention to disrupt some sort of democratic processes such as they are anywhere. And we've already seen this. We've seen statements from the United States. We've seen statements from Russia. We've seen statements from all over the place, the United Nations, the European Union condemning any sort of coup. But just, you know, maybe let's speculate a little bit here,

Abayomi. How do you think that these major powers are going to be viewing this coup, maybe the United States, Russia, China, how are they going to be looking at the ouster of Alphacande and the incoming military junta? Well, the problem is that they may denounce the military intervention in politics and the detainment, the detention of the ousted President Condi, but at the same time, their principal interests is their economics, stakes, you know, in Guinea, and that goes for the United States as well as France. And that is the bottom line as far as they are concerned. On the surface, of course, they're going to say they support civilian rule, but in actuality, they're going

to want to continue to extract balksite out of Guinea and whatever other resources they have that benefit the world economic system. So I don't think that what these countries say on the surface is necessarily what they're doing behind the scene. We see this in the Democratic Republic of Congo, where in the eastern region you have rebel organizations that are guarding. mining mines for multinational corporations that are making billions of dollars every year from these mineral resources, which are not benefiting the people in Congo at all. We have the same situation in Genie Conchry and other countries throughout the ECOWAS region. Well, just one quick follow-up on that is I'm wondering, given this circumstance,

Clearly, Alfa, Condé was useful, you know, as a figure. I mean, he was closely tied with the sort of neoliberal establishment. He was a human rights professor in France. And so when he won these elections, we've seen that under his decade, there's been a ramping up of the mineral exploitation, you know, to the benefit of Western companies. I imagine there were many Canadian companies, you know, Canadian miners. companies are among the biggest in the world and working all across South America and

and Africa so there would be one reason definitely to condemn this military coup quite apart from you know quite apart from you know adherence to democratic norms and so on is that it introduces some potential instability and clarity about what the direction of the policy will be and I wonder in this context Given China's sort of importance, increasing importance in Africa, you alluded to even them establishing a military base in Djibouti, if there's some possibility that you can get less hassle as a, you know, colonel who's done a military coup by working with China that isn't going to make a huge deal about, oh, your, you know, democratic norms. And this is what I've heard

from people who work in development institutions in Africa is that on the ground, people say we're fed up working with the EU and the U.S. because, you know, they just will lecture you about corruption and, you know, you have to reform your legal codes and so on. Whereas when you work with the Chinese, you know, it's very clear, you know, you negotiate with them and they need to build a road. They're going to build a road. And they're not going to come in and try and redo your entire political system to make it more amenable for exploitation by, you know, Western imperial powers using those norms of the international community. So I'm wondering if this is an opportunity in some ways where Guinea may, you know, look to China or other powers to provide some of the

technical services and resource extraction and whether they can cut a different kind of deal. And that's what, you know, might be very concerning to the West in this situation. It is concerning to the West, and China has grown in regard to its influence on the African continent over the last 20 years with the formation of the form on China-Africa relations, Focac cooperation, and a lot of global trade between China and Africa, of course, the African countries have been invited to be a part of the Silicon. road initiative on the part of Beijing. So yes, I think this is a possibility that they could develop closer relations with China. But still, that will not solve completely the internal contradictions within Guinea itself, the need for a stable political system, a generally democratic system, equal distribution of wealth inside the country. That is the prescible issue that people in Guinea and all over the African continent

are facing today. And I think that the U.S. is very concerned about the role of China with the withdrawal from Afghanistan, it appears as if they want to regroup to put place more forces against China's growing influence in Asia and in other parts of the world.

And they can't do that if they're tied up in other geopolitical regions, for example, in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, and others. So the next few months, in the next couple of years, particularly under the Biden administration, is going to be very important in regard to the orientation of the United States. It's quite interesting that Biden has kept in place the tariffs

and other restrictive measures in regard to China. I don't think they've been lifted at all. the same thing with Cuba. In fact, they've enhanced sanctions against Cuba. So it shows that they still have the same strategic objective. They just have a different tactical approach by rejoining the World Health Organization, rejoining the Paris Climate Agreement makes the United States look good on the surface. But when you go beneath the surface to actually see that they are quite concerned about their influence,

internationally. And this humiliating withdrawal from Afghanistan is really going to damage the global prestige of the United States. China, Russia, as well as Iran, have all said that they're willing to work with the Taliban government or the government of Taliban is trying to put together in Afghanistan, whereas the European Union has said categorically they're not going to recognize, and the British are saying they're not going to recognize the new government in Afghanistan when it is formed. And the United States has not been clear on that question either. So we'll have to see how things unfold. It's a very interesting period that we live in right now. For sure. For sure. Thanks so much. Absolutely. And that we're going to close right here

because anything that we go, the longer that we go, the more is going to have happened while we were recording. And so the more out of day. Exactly. So I want to make sure that I get this up on our feet as quickly as possible. Again, listeners, I hope that this guerrilla history dispatch serves as a useful resource for you to understand the unfolding events in Guinea. Again, our guest was Abiyomi,

Azikouye, editor of Pan-African Newswire, Abiyomi. It was absolutely wonderful having you on the show. I'm hoping that we can bring you. back in the future to talk about, hopefully not the same topic, but, you know, almost anything else. It was really a great conversation with you. Can you tell the listeners how to find you in the work that you're doing? Well, I'm on Facebook under my name. I'm on Instagram, also Twitter, and I have a blog, the Pan-African Newswire. It said panafrican news.com. and my writings are published by News Ghana, for example, global research,

a local website called Fighting Words.net and others. So all you've got to do is Google my name and you'll find a lot of the work that I'm doing. Great. And listeners, I'll have some of that linked in the description below. So if you want to find Abiomi's work as well as profiles, just scroll down in the description box and you'll find those links down there to find more of his work.

Yeah, we really appreciate it. Thanks so much for coming on and hopefully we'll talk to you again soon. Absolutely. Thank you and it was really a treat meeting both of you. Absolutely. And again, thanks to my friend Margaret Kimberly for putting us in touch with you.

It was as soon as she said it, I knew it was going to be great. So I can't say I'm surprised but at the same time, It was a really excellent interview. And so listeners, again, I hope that this was useful for you. Feel free to send it around. In fact, please do send it around to anyone who wants to understand the context of what's going on.

Adnan, instead of us having our usual sign-offs on how to find us individually, I'll just say how to find the show. Listeners, you can find us on Twitter at Gorilla underscore Pod, G-G-E-R-R-I-L-L-A-U-Sk, and you can support the show on patreon at patreon.com forward slash gorilla history. Again, gorilla being spelled G-U-E-R-R-I-L-A. Until next time, listeners, solidarity. Thank you.