Guerrilla History - Football! Palestine, Copa América, & the Euros w/ Alex Aviña

Episode Date: June 14, 2024

In this episode of Guerrilla History, we end up continuing our informal and unplanned "Football" (soccer to those of you in the US and Canada) miniseries with our friend and comrade Alex Aviña!  Here, we discuss some of the Palestine related goings-on in the football world, as well as give a preview and make predictions for the Copa América and European Championships, which are getting kicked off at the time of this episode being released.  If you've not already heard our previous Football episodes with Alex, check out our first The Beautiful  Game, plus our newer World Cup: Sport, Politics, History, & Propaganda. We are sure that even those of you who are not super football fans will get a lot of use from these discussions! Alexander Aviña is associate professor of Latin American history at Arizona State University and author of Specters of Revolution: Peasant Guerrillas in the Cold War Mexican Countryside. Alex's website is available at alexanderavina.com, and he can be followed on twitter @Alexander_Avina Help support the show by signing up to our patreon, where you also will get bonus content: https://www.patreon.com/guerrillahistory                               

You don't remember Dinn-Bin-Bin-Bin-Bou? No! The same thing happened in Algeria, in Africa. They didn't have anything but a rank. The French had all these highly mechanized instruments of warfare. But they put some guerrilla action on. Hello and welcome to Guerrilla. History, the podcast that acts as a reconnaissance report of global proletarian history and aims

to use the lessons of history to analyze the present. I'm one of your co-hosts, Henry Huckimacki, joined as usual by my co-host, Professor Adnan Hussein, historian and director of the School of Religion at Queen's University in Ontario, Canada. Hello, Adnan. How are you doing today? I'm doing well, Henry. It's great to be with you. Yeah, long time no see. Actually, listeners listeners on our Patreon will know we actually never stopped recording we recorded another episode until our guest joined the call

and then we switched to recording the episode that everybody's hearing on our general feed right now before I introduce the guests on the topic I would like to remind the listeners that in order to hear episodes like those bonus chats between Adnan and I and to help support the show and allow us to continue making episodes like this you can go to patreon.com

forward slash gorilla history That's G-U-E-R-R-I-L-A history. And you can follow us on Twitter to keep up to date with everything that we do individually, as well as collectively at Gorilla-U-Pod, again, G-U-E-R-R-I-L-A underscore pod. Today we have a returning guest, probably our most prolific returning guests, in terms of most appearances. We have Professor Alexander Avina. Hello, Alex.

It's nice to have you back on the show again. Hey, guys, thank you so much for having me back. Appreciate it. Absolutely. And we have Alex not only for this episode, but he'll also be on for another episode coming up in a couple of weeks. So stay tuned for that. This episode is going to be a continuation of kind of a mini series that wasn't planned to be a mini series, but is developing into one with Alex on football or as North Americans would say, soccer. We had our original episode on The Beautiful Game, which was talking about football, generally. And then we had a really, actually really popular and well-received World Cup Politics Propaganda and History episode, which came out just in advance of the Qatar World Cup about a, what, a year and a half ago at this point at the time of recording. Listeners, I highly recommend you go back and listen to that World Cup history politics

and propaganda episode, if you haven't heard it already. We're going to be continuing that because this episode will be dropping on the same day as the start of the Euros. and shortly thereafter will also be the start of the Copa America. So this is our Copa America and Euro, European Championship episode. Now, listeners might be thinking, okay, well, this is a history and, like, political history show. Why do they just keep coming back to football? But the thing is, is like, these are very political conversations and very historical conversations each time, and this is going to be no different.

And I know, Alex, you wanted to open the conversation with, Palestine and football and so I'm just going to pass the baton right over to you on that topic itself and you can maybe also in the process of describing how the situation in Gaza and Palestine is being viewed by the football community and being in some cases used by the football community you can also describe what shirt you're wearing for the listeners thanks so I'm wearing my palestino jersey that they third jersey that they produced earlier this year as a homage to both the resistance in Palestine and Gaza, but also to the Green Bay, the ultras of Celtic FC, who at least in Europe probably are the most

steadfast supporters of Palestine amongst football club supporter. I mean, they're excellent. You can check out their work online, and they've continued to do their solidarity work in a variety of different ways since this genocide began in October of last year. Well, I'll just start by saying a couple of things, right? I think, you know, there's some folks online, some sports journalists who have done a really good job of documenting the, you know, it's a horrific genocide, right? But they have, and they cover all that. But within this, this genocidal process that we're witnessing in Gaza, we've seen the killing of hundreds of football players. We've seen the killing of at least one Palestinian referee that was FIFA accredited.

So that's like the highest level that you can reach as a referee. The Palestine football Olympic team coach was killed. You've had the raising of Palestinian football stadiums. And then on a couple of occasions, the use of those stadiums, hearkening back to what Augusto Pinochet did in Chile in 1973 after the overthrow of Salvador Allende, we've seen instances of the IOF using Palestinian football stadiums as concentration camps. I think that was late last year. And then internationally, there's been an effort to increase the organizing and mobilizing around the effort to isolate and to expel Israel from Wafa, which is the European Footballing Confederation.

And eventually, there's also an effort that's moving, that's demanding the expulsion of Israel from FIFA, which is the international governing body for football. And the effort at the FIFA level has been led by the Palestinian Soccer Federation, Football Federation themselves, right? And I think we're going to get, each time that FIFA meet has met this year, they keep pushing back that discussion. And they've promised that in July of this year, in between the end of the Euro Cup and the beginning of the Olympics, that they're going to come to some sort of conclusion. the hope. They might just continue to punt it. And that'll be something to watch, particularly because in the football competition for the Olympics, Israel is going to be participating. So it's part of this movement to isolate and to expel the Israeli national football team from international bodies mirrors efforts in the past around South Africa, right? So to, in the

apartheid movement, right? So one way to isolate the apartheid South African regime was to mobilize around its expulsion from different international sporting bodies. But as we've seen, right, there's always a Palestine exception. And whereas in the past, efforts to isolate the apartheid South African regime, you know, at the very least we're tolerated and if not ultimately successful, similar efforts around Palestine in solidarity with Palestine have been met with violence, right, and in horrific ferocity. I mean, we're witnessing the so-called Western nation.

rip up their own juridical, both their national and their international and juridical frameworks to protect and to provide cover for this ongoing genocide in Gaza. And, you know, we've seen the horrific, at least in the U.S., where I am, including on the campus where I work, we saw the deployment of riot police against students who had organizing encampments, right, in solidarity with Palestinians in Gaza. One of the issues that's come up, too, is that when it comes stepping back and thinking about the role of Israel and international football federations, is that after the Russian invasion of Ukraine, there was an immediate expulsion by Wepa, the European body, and by FIFA, right? They removed Russia and the Russian national team from and Russian club teams, if I remember correctly. from competitions, and it wasn't anything that required much debate or discussion.

It happened pretty quickly. The Russian owner of, the former Russian owner of Chelsea FC and the English Premier League was forced to sell his team because the argument was that he was linked with Vladimir Putin and the Russian government. Therefore, he had no right to own Chelsea FC while, you know, other foreign owners of English football clubs like the Saudis with Newcastle were continue, right? to operate and make a good end and make some money with their with their clubs. Alex, just to jump in for one. I would like to jump it for very briefly. You mentioned Russian clubs, the Russian national team. Yeah, you're absolutely right.

The Russian national team has only been playing other former Soviet republics like Uzbekistan and Tajikistan in the last two and a half years, which has made watching the national team here, not very entertaining. But also, as you mentioned, club teams had been expelled from all. continental European tournaments. And the irony of the situation, as you mentioned, Abramovich, who is the, as you mentioned, the former owner of Chelsea, who is a multi-billionaire Russian. He also is a dual Israeli citizen, which is the irony here being that there, as soon as the

situation between Russia and Ukraine kicked off, there was this mass public. campaign to get him to, like, completely not only sell Chelsea, but not be able to receive any money for selling of this massive asset, which, you know, he claimed that he was going to be donating a large portion of that. And as you mentioned, you know, there's also this irony that there are other owners within the Premier League like the Saudi Public Investment Fund, which is just the Saudi government of Newcastle. But there has been no criticism of links to the Israeli government with various owners. And I just find that parallel very interesting that Averbovich is a dual Russian Israeli citizen. And there's been no criticism

of him being an Israeli citizen that has links to the Israeli government, but there are endless criticisms of him having links to the Russian government. Sorry for that interruption, Alex. I just wanted to throw that out. No, no, that's a really important point. And I think it further illustrates, you know, the contradictions and hypocrisy is involved here, right? And I think, obviously, we're just talking about this in the world of football, but it exists, and I think we've seen it playing out in almost every realm of like political, social, civic life since October, right? This glaring contradiction, which also goes back to the Palestine exception. Palestine is always the asterisk, right? When it comes to things like free speech, the right, of freedom of assembly,

you can't write certain blog posts because then you might be suspended from teaching posts like what happened to Professor Jody Dean. So, yeah, it's all part of that. To go back to something about Palestine a bit more hopeful, I think one of the really interesting things that happened this year, earlier this year, is that the Asian Football Cup, right?

So this is like the regional championship for all the national teams that play in Asia. Palestine participated. And they obtain their first ever victory in the Asian Cup over Hong Kong. They surprised everybody. So imagine, like, these footballers on the Palestine national team are playing in Qatar, this Asian Cup,

while their family members, their friends, their communities, their homes are completely being raised and destroyed and murdered. And yet, this group of footballers managed to come together win their first ever victory, and they made it to the knockout rounds for the first time. They made it to the round of 16. They scored first. They were winning.

against guitar, the hosts and the eventual champions. And that first half was just, they kept attacking, attacking, attacking. They only managed to get one goal out of it. And then the second half, guitar came back and one to one. But it was just to see their performance on the field, on the pitch, if you were British, I guess you would say. It was fun. They played a very lively, creative, attacking style of play. But to see fans support for this national team globally, you know,

mirrored a lot of the stuff that we watched at the Qatar World Cup, you know, where it was pretty obvious that the streets and the stadiums were with Palestine and we got a series of videos of, you know, especially English guys saying, you know, free Palestine and while they're dressed up like crusaders, you know, some of the, some of my most favorite viral videos of all time. I, this week, the Palestinian national team was playing in a qualifying stage. So they could then play, if they wanted. this, if they obtain enough points in this qualifying stage,

they would get to a next stage where they would be allowed to try to qualify for the next World Cup in 2026 and they played Lebanon and they just needed to get one point from that encounter, which they did. So now the Palestinian national team moves up and now they're going to at the next level where they can play and win. And if they win, they will qualify for the 2026 World Cup, which would be amazing, right? I mean, I could, I would, that, that, the symbolism and the spectacle of that would be pretty amazing if we saw that, particularly considering where that World Cup's going to take place,

which is North America, right? So, which would be awesome. And the final thing I'll say that we can start chatting is of fans of the show know if they've listened to the past two episodes that we've done on football, they know that I'm a shameless Real Madrid fan and I'm still celebrating their Champions League victory. And one of the coolest things that I saw, and this was on sports journalist Leila Hamad's account on Twitter, she posted a video of little Madridistas, little kids in Gaza, who, fans of Real Madrid, who managed to watch the Champions League Final on a laptop,

and they're crowded around it, and they're making noise, and they're celebrating, and they're jumping, and it was, man, I don't know, like, it just shows you the power of sport, I guess, on a certain level, but it was just such a moving video that amissed all that horror that these kids are going to, are living through, and they're going to, and they're going to with for the rest of their lives, a Champions League final managed to bring them a little bit of joy amongst a lot of horror, right? And it's a really movie. It's a really short clip, but to hear their like shrieks of joy and support for

that game that took place between Real Madrid and Dortmund in London last, well, by the time you guys listened to a few, a couple weeks ago, it was pretty moving. Before you, not to mention one more, okay, more thing that you guys have to look up on Twitter, the videos of North African professional clubs and their TIFOs, TIFOs are these things that fans put up in the stands. There's some amazing ones that demonstrates solidarity with the Palestinian peoples. And there's a couple that we can talk about later on. Sorry.

No, before Adnan Hobs in with this question, I just wanted to throw this out there. It's just ironic the timing that we were talking about Russian club football and the national team. I literally just got a message from one of the Russian media outlets that, of course, I'm sure the listeners know by now. I live in Russia. UEFA, FIFA, ready to accept Russia back, according to Russian Football Union presidential advisor Alexi Sorkin. He mentioned that to Tass, which is like the Russian state-owned version of Reuters or the AP. It's basically a wire service here. at the St. Petersburg International Economic Forum. But that message came in two minutes ago.

So just very ironic timing. We're recording this on June 7th, one week exactly before this episode will be coming out. So Adnan, feel free to happen. Oh, I just love that roundup of all of these kind of moments and considerations about the contradictions around Palestinian, you know, participants. in the beautiful game. And it just reminds me, well, one of Qatar and absolutely can confirm that inside the stadiums as well, there was just so much focus on Palestine and, you know, to the extent

that I think I may have even mentioned on one of our sort of follow-ups of the post-world Cup in Qatar that, you know, I heard one statement somebody made that really rang true. is like whatever the outcome of this World Cup, Palestine, has won, you know, that, you know, the kind of experience portrayed and demonstrated to the world. I don't know how much of this came across on some of the Western feeds, but there was just so much solidarity being expressed by fans in and outside and around the stadiums, carrying Palestine flags, and especially if you think of, you know, the Moroccan team. that went so far wonderfully into the semifinals, their fans and their players did a lot of Palestine's solidarity celebration after their wins, you know, carrying flags and in their interviews. And so it became just suffused with the culture of global, you know, of this global FIFA event, you know, of the World Cup, that it was just the Palestine, you know,

Qatar slash Qatar World Cup, you'd think, you know, Palestine was the home team, you know, all of these countries. And, you know, it was also a place, you know, was held in a place where despite the policies of the government, you know, it is closer to a lot of fans from the region and being able to come. And so it had that feeling of Iranian fans, of other Arab countries, the Tunisians, the Saudis, the Moroccan. So all of these teams that, you know, had qualified. their fans were able to come in large groups and that really also enhanced that sense of Palestine solidarity being projected, you know, to the world. And it also just reminded me that at the, you know, very early in the beginning of the Genocidal War, at the School for Oriental and African Studies, they held their annual Palestine Film Festival. And one of the films was a documentary from 2006, so it's kind of dated, you know, but it was about the Palestine National.

football team and their struggles to hold I think it's called gold dreams and it was about their kind of struggles to qualify and it was set right before they had a decisive match that they had to they had to win in order to make it you know uh you know to the world cup um and you know they didn't manage to they've never been to a to a world cup but um the struggles that they had of fragmentation between Gaza and the West Bank or something that, you know, played out. Like they're holding this training camp in Egypt, you know, they've gotten a few Palestinian heritage players who didn't qualify, I guess, for the Chilean team, but from Club Palestino and from that community who have come, like three or four or five of them who speak Spanish. they don't really speak Arabic at this point because it's, you know, a diaspora population that's been in Chile for a hundred years, you know, basically. But they, you know, they were kind of articulating somehow what it meant for them to be, you know, part of Palestine.

There was a, you know, Palestinian American from New York with his New York accent who was trying out. He was like a kind of college semi-pro type player, but it was sort of his dream to, participate in Palestine's, you know, a football team. And they had this like Viennese Austrian coach who was trying to forge some kind of way of playing with like only two weeks of being able to train. And the Gaza players were prevented from coming through the Rafa crossing. And so they only arrived, you know, like days before the match that they were, that they were the home team for, but they had to hold it in a, you know, Egyptian, you know, pitch and stadium. And so it was just a wonderful documentary that

showed how many components of sport reflect the wider society and political situation and dramatize it. And so I just think of that. And I hope that, you know, they will get a chance to qualify, you know, and go to the World Cup in 2026. It would be so. amazing. But I did watch the Asian Cup game against Qatar, and boy, were we rooting for Palestine. It was just heartbreaking that Qatar came back. You know, with a team of mercenaries, you know, I mean, these people have been brought in just like, you know, all the workers who do the work in these Gulf, you know, principalities. They come from everywhere. Same for the football players on the national team are, you know, people who have recently acquired, shall we say,

Fatari citizenship, a lot of them. And so to see this kind of... Including the refs. Y'all, yes, that's right, yeah. They got a lot of hell from the refs in that tournament. Well, sorry, I interrupted you. No, I think that's right. They were the hosts and they got a lot of help.

And the fact that Palestine really, in a way, should have gone through to the next round. I mean, that would have been just so brilliant. But so those are the kinds of things where, you know, politics and football really you know, intersect in, you know, Palestinian consciousness and culture, it's football is so important. You mentioned, you know, these kids who are just watching the Champions League final. I mean, I've seen other cases where in the earlier stages of when electricity is being cut off, the Internet is being cut off, somehow people in these refugee camps in the South managed to put together some jury-rigged way to get in a signal and watch like a Champions League match or El

Classico. I remember, you know, that was an important one. And it's just so important to have something, you know. And it also does the the fact that we've seen these videos, it's also, you know, should promote solidarity in some way. I mean, football fans should have solidarity with football fans. It really humanizes the Palestinians as people who have passions and interests that are just like ours. And this is the big problem in the way in which they've been portrayed is that they're unworthy victims because we can't really humanize and see them as people like ourselves that has contributed to the impunity with which Israel has conducted this genocidal war. And it's only by sustaining those divisions between us and them that it can happen. And so it's important to have these kind of venues and opportunities for really seeing Palestinians as sharing, you know, kind of similar kinds of passions that they're football fans too. They love the game. It's a global game. And how could we tolerate seeing kids who, you know, put together a rag tag, you know, ball and play in these camps, you know, be subjected to such violence. So anyway, that's, I think, an important aspect of why we should be talking about. Palestine and football here ahead of the Eurozone and Copa America.

And there is one additional story that came out regarding Palestine and football, which we would be incredibly remiss to not mention because it involves Palestine football, but also women's football, which is something that we have not talked about in the previous two installments to my recollection. We may have, but I don't recall it. So we, We have to rectify that, at least in some way here. So on Nakhba Day, this year, which, for those unaware, is May 15th, the Palestine women's national team were invited for a friendly to take on Bohemians women's football team in Ireland. And I know that Alex had mentioned Celtic supporters, Celtic being a team from Scotland, but they're from there's Irish connection. There's Irish connections, certainly.

The Irish supporters of Bohemians' women's team turned out to the match in a fair few. I don't have the specific attendance numbers, but I did see videos of the match, and I saw videos of the stands of the match. And the thing that we have to recognize, women's football generally does not have very good attendance. and Irish women's football has even less attendance, typically. So I'm not saying that there was like 20,000 people at the match. There certainly wasn't. It was probably 8,000 people at the match. But that's still a pretty good turnout for women's football in Ireland,

and especially considering it was friendly. But when you look at it, you see all of these Irish people, not with Irish flags, not with bohemian scarves, but all of them with Palestine flags, which was a really, really touching thing to see that not only was the team invited by this club, where in many cases clubs are facing pushback from their associations that they're members of to try to keep politics separate from sport, which is always this refrain that's utilized by these organizations like FIFA, like UEFA.

They say it, but of course, you know, we talked about Russia being expelled. Is that not politics and sport coming together? So, you know, to claim that you're trying to keep the two separate is a little bit disingenuous, I would say. But it is a refrain that's typically heard. And many, many clubs do back down from things like that. They're warned you're not allowed to bring national flags of other nations to the fields and things like that. But the Bohemians women's team supporters came out, like I said, in droves with Palestine flags. And they had this historic friendly, you know, the Palestine women's team had.

hadn't been invited to take part in friendly matches in Europe before. So that was a really big opportunity for them from a sporting perspective, but also in terms of sharing solidarity with the players of that team with the cause of Palestinian solidarity. So I think we would have been remiss to not mention that story, which came out, you know, just over a month ago at this point. That's a great point. Yeah, that was a really cool. That was a really cool event. And actually, Bohemians Adnan, they have a cool Palestine jersey too, man, that you may be interested in checking. Okay, I will go for that. I'll have to look into that. No, and recently there was a Euro Cup 2025 qualifying match for women in Scotland, and it was Israel playing in Scotland.

And there was a pretty good amount of protests against the Israeli national team. Actually, during the match, somebody ran onto the field and chained themselves to the goalpost. And I think they had a shirt that said red card Israel, I think, if I remember correctly. And that's one of the names given to this international campaign to get FIFA to expel Israel from that federation as a consequence of what it's done in Gaza since October of last year. And thankfully, Scotland won 5.0. So that's good. Well, you know, about that, I mean, that campaign, I think that's been a long running campaign for maybe over a decade, you know, of attempts to try and over. mobilize, you know, mobilized fans. Since the 2000s, I think.

Yeah, I think that's right. I think since the 2000s, and really with the start of the BDS campaign as a whole, they did put a lot of emphasis actually on sport as one of the institutional cultural links where a boycott would be really effective. And you mentioned, you know, that this is similar to the way in which South Africa, you know, solidarity support with South Africans against apartheid. did involve boycotts from rugby, you know, which was very important for South Africa, from the Olympics and so on. And more than what a lot of people think that, oh, this doesn't

really make a big difference because it's just symbolic and it doesn't have a material consequence or effect. In fact, actually, I think a state like Israel that tries to represent and portray itself as a Western European state isolation in the international arena, particularly in venues that are seen as having high cultural prestige in Western, you know, societies in Europe and North America and so on. It actually means a lot to them and has a big effect on them. And that was also the thought that, you know, with South Africa, that when they were expelled from a lot of these sporting associations, that's when it really

kind of took a meaningful turn in some ways for the culture of whites in South Africa as a whole that they were being internationally isolated. So the UN can say various things. And, you know, I mean, that's just politics and diplomacy. But when, you know, sporting associations say, no, we're not going to host you in our country. And you can't participate in these athletic offense. That's when it kind of becomes real in the culture in various ways in a popular in at a very large popular level. So I think it's very important to support the campaign to give Israel the red card and maybe that gets us into a little bit about talking about the story about the Copa America that we heard very recent. One last one last thing to mention quickly about Israel

and qualifying for the Euros and then we'll go to the Copa America after that. It's just worth mentioning that Israel was very, very close to qualifying for the Euros this year. They were in the playoff semifinals. So if they had progressed through

two further rounds, they would have qualified for the European Championship tournament, which would have been absolutely disastrous. It's worth mentioning. In the semifinals, they're playing against Iceland. which I know people that watch

like are vaguely aware of football might have this romantic idea of what Iceland is because of what happened in 2016 it's worth mentioning Iceland has not been good since then you know like knocking out England was the high point back in Penry what's it doesn't mean against Iceland come on man no no I mean nothing against Iceland

and it was terrific that they knocked out England from Euro 2060 yeah but knocking out England what is that really even be either. Yes. You shouldn't be so surprised. Ah, of course. But if you've just looked at Iceland's results since then, they haven't really been very good. So when Israel came up against Iceland, you know, Israel was looking like probably the favorites in that. And then they would have advanced to the final playoff, which I believe would have been against the winner of Bosnia and Ukraine, if I remember correctly. I might be wrong on that. But anyway, when you get to the

match. Winner advances. Israel takes a 1-0 lead. Iceland then comes storming back, two goals. Israel gets a red card, so now Iceland is up a goal and a man. But Israel's all-time leading goal scorer earns a penalty. And, you know, this guy's not going to miss. He never misses. Aaron's a hobby. He's a very, very good striker. But of course, he misses off target. And Iceland then scored two further goals at the very end to just obliterate any chances of Israel advancing to the European championships. And you can bet that I was cheering at the top of my lungs during that match, that those last few minutes when it was like, ah, they're up a goal and a man, make that two goals, make that three goals. It was just terrific. So yeah, just that's quite a,

that's quite an amazing story about the match. Kudos the Iceland. Yeah, kudos to Iceland. But, you know, what it reminds me also, and I was going to say is, well, how did Israel even get into UEFA? Where are they located? They're on the Eastern Mediterranean. Why are they not part of some different federation? And the point there is, however, that after the 1973 war, Israel was ejected from the Asian Football Federation. I'm forgetting what the name of the Confederation exactly is.

AFC, yeah, Asian football conference or, you know, and, but what happened? Were they ejected from world football? No, UEFA, you know, gave them a home. And in some ways, it might have been better if they had stayed in Asia and they had to actually deal with, you know, hosts and so on that had populations and fans that were hostile or did not want normalization. I mean, that would have been a more interesting. kind of continuous pressure. Instead, they've just been welcomed into UEFA, and we've had to be

campaigning for decades here to no final avail, you know, where they've probably got what they wanted. I mean, maybe they were happy to be in the Asian Confederation initially because they thought it would be easier to qualify because the standard was lower, although things have really improved in Asian football. And UEFA would be much more difficult. But, of course, this is of greater benefit to them, at least in terms of legitimacy in the sporting world. And they're, of course, cushioned and coddled by UEFA that protects them and never says anything about, you know, the intersection of politics and football except when, you know, it's the case of Russia, as we've already talked about. But if they got ejected from UEFA, the question is, would they just

go to conmibol? So that's what I wanted to, you know, raise here, is that the, you know, there was a report that had surfaced. Yeah, exactly. There had been a report, though, that surfaced that they were going to be prevented from participating in the Copa America, which came as news to me that they were even being considered to participate in the Copa America. Alex, I'm sure you've been following this story closely and the politics around it. What's going on here and what's the latest? And just to clarify for listeners who aren't super well attuned to football. The Copa America is the South American continental tournament. However, every time the tournament rolls around, there's always guest countries, which are invited. So

unlike the other tournaments, like the African Cup of Nations, which, by the way, is probably my favorite of the tournaments, just to throw that out there, which only has African teams in it. You know, the Euros only has European teams, plus, you know, Israel, which doesn't qualify, but, you know, they're in the confederation. Conmable, the confederation for South American football, they have 10 members which go into the tournament plus six guest nations. And this year, it's going to be all guests from North America, the North American Confederation.

But as Adnan mentioned, there was this report that came out. So just to clarify what the Copa America is, Alex, take it away. Yeah, though. Thanks, Henry. That's really important background information. And before I get into that, let me just mention that in terms of international boycott's work, it took about two decades for following their expulsion from the AFC in 1974. It took about two decades for Israel to be admitted into Waifa.

So, like, they were just internationally isolated in terms of not having a home at least with some regional soccer federation. So it can be done, right? And they could have been left out, right? But, you know, the Waifa, you know, Waifa accepting them in the early 90s, maybe like 92 or 94. I mean, it was a lifeline for their national team, but it was really like a lifeline for their professional club teams that could then participate in really prestigious revenue producing European, pan-European soccer tournaments like the Champions League, like the Europa League. And you have, you know, there was an incident in this last year's Europa League, which is one of these continental competitions between club teams where an Israeli team went to Greece to play a game. And I think it was an ultras for this was a match.

Yeah, it was there Robbie Keene, his team, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the Ultras were in Greece, and they came up against a young man who said something in solidarity with Palestine, and dozens of Ultras nearly beat the kid to death. Or maybe I didn't follow up on the story in terms of what happened to this poor kid. So, you know, it's this weird thing, right? There's also this Israeli club, Bitar Jerusalem, where, like, their ultras sing, like, kill the Arab, kill the Arabs.

So, like, these are the type of club. that are allowed to participate in things like the Champions League or the Europa League if they're able to qualify. So that Wafah really gave them a lifeline. And I think, on your right, is probably where they wanted to be all along, at least like culturally and politically, but if not if, you know, football wise, because it's going to be really difficult for them to qualify for the next World Cup in 2026. And we are definitely going to that World Cup.

And I can tell you I'm going to be in there with, if not a Palestinian flag, at the very at least the Palestinian Jersey, if they take the flag away from me. Hopefully, though, because Palestine is their plane. So going back to the Gulf America, there was a report earlier this year that came out that the Israeli Football Federation had signed an agreement with Conmebole, which is a South American Football Confederation. It was like an exchange agreement. Like they were going to participate in like training sessions, football development sessions,

and it creates some sort of bilateral connection between these different South American national teams and the Israeli national team. This is, cameras this like March of this year, maybe April. And then just a little, maybe a few weeks ago, maybe two weeks ago, there was a report that came out that said that Israel, that Komebo would no longer invite Israel to come play at the 2024 Copa America. I don't know. I'm not exactly sure that they had ever been invited to play at the 2024.

This might have been like for future Copa Americas. That's kind of uncertain in terms of like a lot of this is just like leaked information. I haven't seen, I'm probably wrong, but I haven't seen like official confirmation of this. But there is some sort of agreement that was signed earlier this year between the Israeli Football Federation and Connevore. And from what I've seen, it was a lot of the role of pillar pressure from below that kind of nix the very idea of inviting Israel, at least in the near future, to participate in a Copa America.

And as Henry rightly noted, this tournament always involves, it's only 10 South American nations. So they always have recently in the last few decades. they've had, at least since the early 90s, they've invited outside countries to come and participate. I think it used to be two and now it's six, if I remember correctly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think it might, I'm trying to remember. I think, I mean, I'm a fan of the Mexico national team. The first time Mexico was ever invited was 93 and we made it to the finals and lost to Argentina in heartbreaking fashion. And we still continue to lose Argentina and my national team is a mess.

Anyway, let's not go into that because it's depressing, but, and they're not going to do well, this Copa America. Anyway, so yes, it's the Copa America. It's one of the oldest international soccer tournaments, football tournaments. It goes back to the late early 20th century. This year, it's being held in the United States. So it's truly a Cop America, America, in the sense that America is all the Western Hemisphere, not just United States. This has happened before. It happened in 2016, right? I think a lot of this has to do with Combebol knows where the money is. They know where the markets are and they know that people in the U.S. will pay for tickets and come watch the games.

So I think that also has to do with widely invited six teams and six national teams from the North American Football Federation. It starts soon. The 20th, I think. The 20th, yeah, it goes into the middle of July. It's all throughout the United States. It's worth pausing there for a second, Alex. It's worth pausing, you know, note listeners.

We're talking about the South American Confederation's Continental Tournament, and it's hosted. Where? Can you repeat that, Alex, for the listeners? Where is this tournament being hosted? In the United States. I have no further comment. It's a, well, I mean, so, you know, from the perspective of fans, right? Like, fans, you know, there's like 30 million plus Mexican people of Mexican descent in the U.S., right? So they get to, every time the Mexico national team plays, they play more games in the U.S. than in Mexico, precisely because this is where the money is. So listeners could not see me making the money sign, but yes, that's exactly what it is. Henry was making it rain signs.

You know, from the perspective of, you know, Panamanian fans, Costa Rican fans, Jamaican fans, you know, there's all, every one of these national teams is going to have a diaspora population in the U.S., but it's also a population that tends to have money. at least relative to the ticket prices, right? But it does seem like popular pressure and popular protest from below in South America played some sort of role in short-circuiting, you know, the inviting Israel's national team to come participate in Cop America. As we talked about our episode from last December, right, there's a long history between some of these Latin American countries, particularly when they were ruled by Desquad or military dictatorship regimes and Israel. providing training and financing and arming armaments for these regimes.

Hugo Chavez once famously joked that Colombia was the Israel of Latin America. Fortunately, it is no longer that, thanks to the popular forces that brought President Gustavo Petro to power, and he's actually been one of the most-spoken global leaders when it comes to calling for solidarity with Gaza and the end, and calling for an end to the genocide. And so there's, for that history really explains, I think, some of the, the popular protest from below that perhaps played a role in pushing Combevol to mitigate or to bring down some of the the level of participation in that agreement that was signed earlier this year between the Israeli Football Federation and Combevol. So yeah, so the Copa

America is going to take place in the U.S. Henry's not happy about it, but like I said, it's the second time that has happened. 2016 was the first time. And, you know, yeah, it's going to be it's an interesting tournament um i think it's interesting when it's held here i think some of the i don't know it just feels different when a a international football competition is set in the u.s versus you know for in the in the case of copa medica somewhere in south america um but from the fan perspective i think for fans here in the u.s of the sport i think it's a good thing and and we'll see how well i mean i think i think attendance was pretty good in 2016 and it'll probably continue to be pretty good for this iteration of it.

Well, one question that I have about the fan experience is, well, you know, how many fans from South America will be able to travel if it is being held in Argentina or Peru or Brazil? I mean, you have like, you know, overland transport links or short flights and it might be more affordable. I don't know what the ticket pricing would be when it's held in, you know, South American country compared to when it's held in the United States where event tickets, you know, can be very expensive. Yeah. You know, so I wonder how accessible this is going to be or is it going to be a completely television experience. There will just be diaspora fans and a small contention of the ultra, you know, elites who can travel and get visas. Yeah. You know, to come. That's a,

That's another problem. That's the question. That's the question. The question is the U.S. migratory regime and who is allowed to come into the U.S. and who's allowed to obtain a visa to come into the U.S. and is people with money. So, yeah, in terms of people of South America or Central America or the Caribbean

trying to come watch the games in the U.S., I mean, we know who it's going to be. It's going to be people with more economic means, with wealth, who can apply and get a visa from the U.S., which is a difficult process. They do pretty substantial background checks to make sure that if they give you the visa, you're not going to stay, right?

Because I don't know if you guys have noticed, but apparently Biden is just as Trumpian as Trump when it comes to migration and violating asylum law and refugee laws, right? So that's an important question. And it's going to be a question for the 2026 World Cup, right? That's going to be held in Canada, the U.S. and Mexico.

I think folks will have an easier time getting into Mexico. than they will into Canada, the United States. Yeah, and I think the other component of it, sorry, Henry, yeah, just the other component of it also is the fan experience, one thing that I noticed about Qatar, even though, of course, they built all of these white elephant stadiums and so on, one thing that was really amazing was that it was held in pretty much one location, and so fans from everywhere mixed with one another. When it's going to be held for 2026 and also for the Copa America, they're usually

in many venues distributed around, you know, the United States and in the case of 2026, North America. And so you don't get that kind of intense kind of feeling of a city is just now consumed by football. And you've got fans from five or, you know, four to eight different, you know, countries that are participating, all mixing, intermingling, bringing their football supporting culture, their kind of chance and all of that. And so, I mean, what's the fan experience really, you know, inside the stadium? Of course, there may be many diasporic fans and it'll be lively, hopefully, but, you know, that kind of sense of a tournament, like you don't notice a tournament happening in the United States. Like, when the World Cup is happening, it's just, you

know, if you watch the media or if you're going to the games, but if you're a casual person, And you don't get a sense that, oh, my goodness, the world has come, you know, for, you know, the FIFA World Cup. You know, you don't get that sense the way it would be in a smaller location and in a genuinely football supporting culture and country. I think it'll depend on the city. So, like, one of the sites is Las Vegas. I mean, they could take over that city. I mean, that's so, but it'd be difficult to take over, you know, Arlington, Texas or even here. So I live in Phoenix, Arizona, and Glendale is one of the sites.

Glendale is about 30-minute drive northeast. It has a stadium for one of the fake football of franchises, the NFL teams. It's like a suburb, right? Like a suburb, right? So you could take over that little spot, right, for the game, as Mexicans usually do when they go watch the Mexican national team. But, yeah, it's not in like a lot of this has to do with like the history of urban development and sprawl in the United States.

Right. So I think that, but in certain cities, I think that that you could have like a momentary capture that you would see in other places. And I do think the fan base for this sport in the U.S. has increased. It's, it's diversified. And I think it has. At least I want to think that it's gotten smarter and more attuned to it. I think it has. But through very like, in the very like racialized American ways that characterized broader U.S. society. I'll just put it that way. I guess before we turn to like predictions for Copa America and then we get to the euros because this episode we should try to keep it somewhat brief since we've already talked about football and politics at length previously. The reason that I am particularly opposed to the tournament being in the United States is for two reasons. One, the one that had already been laid out that it is for the purpose of money and The fans that are going to be attending are either, you know, diaspora members from those

countries that are participating in the Copa America or the guest countries that, you know, United States, Canada, Mexico are all participating in the Copa America this year or wealthy people who are going to be able to travel and get visas. That's one reason why I'm opposed to it, because it does lock off that, you know, that base of football support, the common people of the society. Football was meant to be a sport for the people. And that relates to the second reason, which is that, you know, when people support football, I know that a lot of people these days have gotten used to supporting mega clubs or even in a more invalder way, supporting individual players rather than clubs. You know, back in the past,

people would support a local team. Or if not, if you didn't have a local, local team, you would pick a team that was relatively closely, you know, accessible to you unless there was really nothing anywhere near you, which is why I ended up being a Rubin Kazan fan. Like literally, there was no professional teams anywhere near where I grew up. But for the most part, you had a team that was relatively accessible to you. And historically, people would be fans of those teams because you could build a community around that team. It was a sport for the people in that community. And that, like I said, is something that has been lost in many ways because of the

televization of football, mass televization of the club sport, you know, Manchester United, Real Madrid, Arsenal. I'm going to point out because of Anon's a fan of Arsenal. Take it easy, Henry. But you do get my point. You know, there is that kind of homogenization of football support, whereas it used to be much more community oriented. But in terms of national team support, again, that community is located in the nation, you know, the nation that that team represents. And so while we may say,

well, there are diaspora communities in the United States that do have their own sense of community for those nations, the broad community that supports those nations are going to be within their home countries. And for the vast majority of those people, travel to the U.S. for this tournament is going to be economically infeasible and probably just impossible financially and with regard to visa. So those two things which are pretty related are kind of the two reasons why I'm particularly opposed to it being a conmable tournament that's being hosted outside of a conmable nation. That's kind of the little bug bear that I have. But I do want to turn towards predictions for this tournament before we talk about the Euros for a little bit

and then wrap up this episode. Alex, I'll turn to you first. Anything that you want to say about anything I was saying or about the tournament and then your predictions to wrap up on Copa America. Yeah, I think the processes that you identified, Henry, have been ongoing, right? I mean, it's not just to,

these processes have not just impacted football, right? Like, football mirrors the neoliberalization of everyday life that has been going on for decades, right? So pretty much any time that, that a major international tournament is held in a global north country, fans from the Global South face these similar type of challenges. I'm not sure how it was that 2018 woke up in Russia, but when it's held in other European countries,

there's similar travel restrictions. Let's leave it that way. So in that sense, the U.S. is not unique, but I think it does reflect, again, that ongoing global, north, global south division that has been set for centuries now. And we see it played out in this very minor way in terms of who can go watch their national teams play in an international sporting event.

Predictions, I think, I don't have any bold predictions. I think I will say Brazil, it's time for Brazil to win an international tournament and they have a good group of young upcoming superstars, including future Ballone or winner, Venetius, who I'm a big fan of, not just because he's a Real Madrid player, but I think he's done some pretty, again, within the context of a professional football where he's immensely compensated. I think he's done some really brave work in the Spanish League in terms of anti-racism work

because he's been subject to some pretty horrific instances of racism since he arrived in Spain a few years ago. And this last season in particular, he was victimized and he's fighting back. And I think it makes a difference when someone of his prestige fights back and doesn't just take it. So I would say I think Argentina, they've won too much recently They're getting old It's their time to kind of move to the side

Brazil's the young up-and-comer team And the dark course will be able to Hawaii That also I love their national team coach Is one of my favorites of all time Marcelo Elko Villza He's an innovator He's this guy who has just unorthodox approach The game

He's inspired people like Pep Guardiola and others He doesn't get his due And he's just really fascinating guy Is he a winner, Alex? Is he a winner? He might win with Hawaii, Henry. He wins, okay, let's say he wins at first, and then he outstays his welcome. He runs his players until they're dead is the problem.

He won with, he won when he was a national team coach of Argentina. I think he won Cop America. Maybe not. He did win when he was with New York, Argentina. And with Leeds, he got close. With Chile, he had an interesting team. Right. I think he has interesting theories, whether they're, what happens when he applies them. That's a different question. But I really like local. And what do I has a really, it's a, they're in the midst of a generational transfer and their young players are really intriguing. And they're going to be fun to watch, I think. Particularly with his system that is just, as Henry says, all out running and pressing and attacking. Adnan, any thoughts?

Well, I haven't been keeping track of qualifying here. And I just wonder, in fact, actually, there's a question for Alex, because I can't recall, has there, you mentioned Mexico getting to the finals of a Copa America and losing. Has any non-conmable nation actually won the Cop America? I don't know if that. I don't think so. Yeah. I didn't think so either. And I don't think judging from the fact that they've invited onka-caf teams that there will be anybody who could do that this year either so I'm going to say that I

think I think Canada's group is a very tough group because it's got Argentina Peru and Chile all of whom I think probably better although Canada might finish third in the group ahead of Peru

you know I don't think Jamaica is a powerhouse this year either and so you would look to Mexico and probably Ecuador getting out of their group. No, no, no Mexico, not. Alex is shaking his lead ahead of Venezuela in Jamaica. I don't know, but you've got to like, bang on Mexico.

I'm in a dark space right now. I think the U.S. actually might get out of its group with Uruguay, but then we'll, you know, lose in the knockouts. And Group D looks really pretty strong, actually, with Brazil, Colombia, Paraguay. And Costa Rica, I mean, Costa Rica is a non-connable country, we recall, from recent World Cups. They have qualified pretty consistently and done pretty well, actually. So that looks to me a tough group, but I don't know anything about Colombia's generation. They used to sometimes be a really dangerous team. But obviously, Brazil has to be considered the class of that group.

And, you know, perhaps favorites, I think definitely if Vinicius, does lead Brazil to winning the Copa America, I think he will put his stamp on that trophy of the Ballandoor winner. And so it could be a big tournament for him because, you know, that would be one way he may distinguish himself from some of the other top contenders playing in European football for that award. So, you know, we'll see. Yeah, in terms of my predictions, actually, I was thinking very similarly to Alex, although I'm a little bit. less hot on Brazil. Brazil has had, Brazil has not been as successful at Copa Americas as you would expect. So if you look at the number of titles that countries have won, Argentina and Uruguay are the joint leaders. I think they have 15 each. And Brazil is back at nine. Like,

they're not, they're not particularly close to either of those two countries in terms of Copa-America success historically, which, you know, dates back over 100 years. But the reason why I'm not quite as hot on Brazil, even though I do think they have the best squad, is, you know, Neymar has been a talisman for them over the course of his career. And we see when he gets injured in tournaments, which inevitably happens, that is the moment where the team goes crashing out of the tournament. He's not playing in this tournament because he's had knee surgery on his Saudi adventure. So he's not in it at all. Now, Vinicius, I certainly think, could be so now I don't want to get too into the weeds of football because I

understand that people are tuning into this for you know politics and history Venetius is quite the player you know Neymar always was in many ways if you wanted to level a criticism at him beyond the fact that you know he dives and he gets injured is that he was style over substance for much of his career I would say like he did produce a lot of goals but the the for me there was a lot more focus on how well his final contribution was not what it could have been. Vinicius is just lethal. Like when he's in front of goal, man, something is going to happen.

That was what Namar reminded me of in his early career, kind of later on his contribution started the tail off. But the other reason I'm not quite as hot on Brazil is Casamiro had an absolutely atrocious season this year. And I don't think people appreciate how important, having like a seasoned experience defensive midfielder is. And he has really been a rock for them for years and years and years. But his year at Manchester United was terrible.

So I think that that's one reason why I'm not quite as hot on Brazil, but I do certainly think that they still have the best squad. I like Uruguay. I don't think that they'll win it, but I really like their squad. Alex, you said Argentina is really old and they've been winning a lot lately. They did win the last Copa America and the World Cup. But I don't know, that whole, there's a couple holes in the Brazil squad. I don't know.

I think that they might have, the Argentina might have one last tournament in them. But then really, I think that there's a really big transition that needs to happen there because their squad is pretty ancient. I'll say, when I say they're old, I'm like talking about messy. Because I do think they have a couple. They're transitioning in like a new young crop of players. Alvarez is super exciting. And Enzo, they got it.

What's his last name? Fernandez. Yeah, he didn't. McAllister is not an old player either. He's not. Yeah. So I'll be talking about messy. Yeah, yeah.

McAllister had a better season than Enzo did this year. So anyway, I don't want to get too into the weeds of the football specific. This was supposed to be a quick prediction. All right. Eros chat. Alex, the Euros are kicking off the day that this episode is coming out. What do you want to say about the Euros for the listeners? The Euros, six teams, 24 teams, all European.

It's being held in Germany, a country with shape, you know, they've, yeah, anyway, it's going to take me in a different direction because I'm not happy with Germany in terms of what they're doing with Palestine and Palestine in solidarity. But so it's being held in Germany. It will be interesting to see if there is any sort of like fan protests and what happens. So that'll be interesting to keep an eye out for. You know, this is after the World Cup and maybe the Champions League, this is like the next most high profile international tournament, right? It's got it's got the highest paid players with few exceptions from South America.

It's got, you know, some of the strongest national teams globally. I agree with Henry. And for me, the most fun one to watch is always the African Cup of Nations. But the Euro Cup always has good football to watch. In the last one, there was a horrific scene where a player almost died while playing. And that player, Erickson for Denmark, is back. He's going to play again. That was a frightening moment to be watching that live.

Just quickly, I would say there's Group D. probably group B or group D are the groups of death as you say the hardest ones group B is Spain Croatia Italy and Albania group D is Poland Netherlands Austria and France so those will be highly contested those games will be fun to watch in terms of surprises yeah I don't know I mean this is a hard one I don't know it's it's really for me it's the Euro Cup surprises are always the hardest ones to predict like we were talking about Iceland earlier there's no I thought that Iceland was going to do anything but all these teams have been here before

I think Georgia is the first this is their very first Euro Cup so that'll be interesting to watch and also they have an interesting geopolitical situation going on one of the I'll just say this there's a couple players that I'm really interested in watching

Turkey has a 19 year old player Arda Gouler who plays for Real Madrid who's just unbelievable like he didn't play much for Madrid but when he did at the end of the season he was just clinical and every game he went in he scored one or two goals and it's pretty impressive to watch. So, but yeah, I think those two group B and group D, it's going to be,

I think England will blow it as though they always do. It's not going to come home, even though they have a pretty talented team. So it's going to, this might be, this, this might be the time for Germany to reascend. They've had a really poor performance. Don't say that, Alex. Their national team. I mean, they're at home. They're the host country. They have some really talented players. I think they're finally balanced. I think the fact that Tony Cros has come back is going to give them a lot of balance and he's a brilliant midfielder. Again, I keep only talking about players who play for Round Madrid. I know. I was going to say, I wonder which team Alex is again. But yeah, I think in terms of potential winners,

I wouldn't be surprised if Germany pulled it off. You know, France is always a favorite. or even, you know, no one expected the Italians to win last time. They might sneak in there again with their style of play is well suited. I mean, their style of play is well suited to win these type of things, but they have a lot of turnover and they have a new coach. I actually like the coach, but there's been some controversies. But, yeah, I would say Germany and France are the favorites. Adnan, any thoughts?

Well, I think Erki, since our good, Ler was mentioned, they're not a great team, but one wonders why they aren't. They're so passionate. It's a large country, one of the largest ones in terms of population in Europe, about 70, 80 million inhabitants. They have the Super League, which decent. Maybe they don't do so great in European competitions, but they qualify and they usually, you know, do something in the groups, even if they don't always get to the knockouts of European. And now they have the special one Don special. Well, this is it. They have the special one. And so one wonders if something could happen there. Future dictator of Turkey. Exactly. He's going to take power. Right. Right.

I mean, he does speak enough languages. Turkish is probably one of them by this point. We're talking about Jose Moreno for listeners who are not following what we're talking about. He has just joined as coach of Fenerbosche. So, yeah, so I don't expect them to do anything, but they might be interesting to watch some of their, you know, talented players. But in their group, Portugal look quite dangerous, even if they have a very aged Cristiano Ronaldo, who's been cooling his heels in Saudi Arabia, you know, it may not be at his competitive best. They have a lot of creation. And that could be a good dangerous team, Raphael Liao. So they might be one of my dark horses.

It'll be interesting to see if Ukraine does anything, you know, in this, you know, if this was being held a year or so ago, there would be all of this, like, kind of drama and discussion about them and all of that. But basically nobody's talking about them. I do think, of course, that France has to always be in the reckoning. Spain, I think, is, you know, in good shape and will be a threat, but I'm kind of concerned that Germany may do very well with, like, some of their attackers, Musiala, and for the same reason that you alluded to, Alex, is like, I'm just not happy about, like, you know, Germany right now their motto for this tournament. In fact, they're the hosts as a United Germany for the first time as solo hosts of this, you know, West Germany was a host in the past, and they

participated in a kind of group, you know, of nations that hosted their previous Euro, but this time they're the sole hosts, and I think they don't deserve it. They, I hope that they will be, you know, kind of humiliated here on home ground for their horrific stance on, you know, and historical amnesia on genocide and their motto is united in the heart of Europe, united by football. I say this should be united by complicity for genocide and racism. But my other dark horse that I will say that I think is pretty good and I actually have some sympathy for them is Switzerland because half that team is basically from the Balkans, you know, including Shaka, who is a form former Arsenal player and did amazing things within the Bundesliga this year.

I mean, they almost had a completely historic undefeated season, but Bayer Leverkusen, unfortunately lost in the Europa final, and that was the only game they lost the entire year. So they won two other competitions, including the Bundesliga and, of course, the DFB-B-Bukal Cup, the Domestic Cup. So they, you know, Shaka had an amazing season. And I think Switzerland had, you know, they did quite well at the last World Cup. They did get into the knockouts. And they have experience.

And that will be kind of interesting, you know, if they make it, you know, make a run maybe to the quarters or something. Yeah. You know, I'll just say, can I say something quickly? Of course. The Euro Cup has like, their winner, they have a tendency to produce surprise winners. Like, in 2004, Greece won at Portugal, against Portugal in the final. Denmark won in 1992, and they were a last minute invited nation to take a place in Slovakia. And then Italy last time, I think, like, that was kind of a surprise, too.

No one really expected them to be able to win and then to beat the host nation again, right? That's why I just said that it's always hard to predict for me, at least, who's going to win the Euro Cup. Sorry, Henry. No, no, nothing to apologize. sport. You know, it's funny, you mentioned Italy. You know, they haven't qualified for the last two World Cups, but they did win the Euros in between those two failed World Cup campaigns and, you know, talking about the Italian style being suited for these kind of short tournaments. Yeah, it's funny that it does seem that like once they're in the tournament, they can be a dangerous team, at least in the

Euros, even prior to their last two misses in the World Cup, they were pretty appalling in the two previous World Cups prior to that as well. I mean, that's going back quite a ways. But just a couple of reflections before I throw out my prediction. Adnan mentioned Turkish fans are very, very passionate. One of my favorite anecdotes about world football is in 2016, I remember this very distinctly, there was a team in the Turkish Super League. I'm not going to try to say its name because I can't, so I won't. It starts with an E, in any case. They got relegated on the last day of the season, and the fans reacted by lighting their stadium on fire. Like, that's the kind of passion that we're talking about here. It's not just a, it's not just

cheering when we win. It's burn the stadium down when we lose. That's accountability, boy. Or beat up your, or beat up your coach. Right. Yes. Into the field and beat up your coach. Oh, my good. Yeah, between Turkish football and Greek football because, you know, the owners of teams in Greece just come out brandishing firearms onto the pitch, you know, like those two countries, there's something else. The consideration here is, of course, that although Germany is the home nation, Turkey may have quite a lot of support because of the Gastar Baitern. Yeah. It's going to be an interesting question of, in this atmosphere in particular, you know, will the Turkish heritage fans in Germany who will be attending these matches, will they be supporting Turkey more? And will that lead to backlash by like, quote unquote, real Germans who are already tilting increasingly? to the right, alternative for Deutschland and other far-right parties are gaining ground and becoming,

you know, this AFD is becoming mainstreamed, really, you know, will there be kind of, like there was for Mesodosel, Mesodosel became kind of the scapegoat for Germany's failure in previous World Cup. And he was clearly targeted because he's a Turkish her. He had met Erdogan, you know, and he maintains kind of relations with Turkey. He actually ended up after Arsenal going and playing at Fenerbache. And, you know, he was really treated very, very poorly by the German public. Well, they ran a mode of the national team. They did.

I mean, he never played for them again after some of those failures. Exactly. And you could not say that it was really to him, you know, that he was the one response. but they tried to make him responsible. And actually, I think, you know, Tony Cruz was not very good in his remarks and comments about, you know, the situation afterwards. And I just look at Tony Cruz and I can see somebody who looks like he should be in World War II era movie wearing a certain kind of helmet and a certain kind of insignia. He looks a little, you know, I'm not trying to, but he's got that severe like SS officer looks to him, you know, so any rate. But he could be a very lovely person.

We should, we should mention. He very well could be a lovely person, but he does have a look to him. His views of Mised Ozil and his attempt to say that there was no racism and, you know, he tried to blame Ozil's attitude and stuff. There was a recent, there was a recent poll that came out in Germany that asking Germans about whether the national team was too diverse and 20% of it. Too dark, I believe, was exactly what it said. Is it too dark?

Right. Exactly. And, and Kimmich, what Joshua Kimmich, one of the main players on the national team, at a press conference, I had to like say, this is ridiculous, we are against this. And, you know, he gave, spoke against the population that said national team was quote unquote darkening. So, and yeah, we should keep an eye on what Germany is doing. Yes, yes, we should keep an eye on what Germany is doing over there because, you know, historically. No, I'm glad you called up.

Should we be boycotting? You know, people, fans should be maybe boycotting Germany and not going, you know, it says. But I think other things should happen to Germany, but I'll keep those opinions to myself. But no, Kimmage, I'm glad you've raised him. He has been fairly outspoken. And, you know, obviously I'm reading translations because even though I lived in Germany, I don't speak German. He comes across very well when talking about these issues, like very, very forceful and straightforward. He's not trying to beat around the bush and try to think of how.

to appease certain segments of the German population. So I will credit him on that. But in terms of prediction, before we wrap up here, I do like the shout-out for Portugal, but not because of Rinaldo. Rinaldo is not the reason why that's an exciting squad. They just have an exciting squad in general. I think that if you look at when they won the Euros, compared to now, their squad is far stronger now than it was when they actually

won the thing. England hasn't gotten a mention yet, even though they're the bookie's favorite for the tournament. I didn't mention that they were going to blow it. Yeah, yeah. I'm living in perpetual hope that they're going to continue their streak of, you know, having high expectations and then spectacularly crashing out of tournaments ever since 1966. And I am very much hoping that that is going to happen again.

But I do think France is another one that obviously. needs mentioning. They're runners up in the last World Cup, winners of the previous World Cup before that. They're an incredibly strong team. Mbapé did not have a very good season by his standards. At least the end of his season was not particularly good by his standards, but that team is just filled, filled with talent. So I think that not enough people are too.

Conservative, a coach, though, to unleash their. That works in tournament. though that's the thing like you look at the squad and you think this team should be scoring five goals a match but what we see is that they score one but they don't concede you know you only have in tournament football you just have to squeak by and if you squeak by you win and Deschamps has been an incredibly successful manager for France despite a lot of people having reservations about his style but I would say France is probably my if I had to put money I don't bet, but if I had to, I'd probably put it on France, but I don't think nearly enough

people are talking about Portugal. I think that people still associate Portugal with Rinaldo and Rinaldo with Portugal and don't look beyond that. But really, their squad is very strong this year. So I won't mention any, I won't mention any specific French players because then my biases will continue to show. Yes, who's really good on that team. But yeah, no, I think, Oh, Camovina is very good, isn't he? And, you know, Chiuamini, he's great. But it is, it's interesting, though, with Portugal that they have a Ronaldo's 38, 38, 39-year-old striker, and they have a 42-year-old centerback. Defender's.

And Pepe looks much fresher than Ronaldo does these days. Pepe is a killer. I wouldn't want to meet him in an air gallery. I don't want to play against that guy. No, no, no. No. But that's a good pick. I think you guys, that's a good dog's pick. All right. So people can laugh at us when our predictions inevitably end up wrong on both Copa America. Oh, wait, like last time. Who did we predict in the World Cup? We'll have to go back and look at who our predictions were. Reminder listeners that Argentina beat France and the final, and it was a terrific tournament overall.

and the finals was probably the best final of all time. But I'm going to go back and listen to what our predictions were for the World Cup because I really don't remember what any of us said for it. I'll be best forgotten. Probably. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Leave it in the fast. I'll tweet it out at you guys today.

So I'll go back and just check it out, see who is the least wrong. All right. On that note, and I think that we should wrap up this conversation. Alex, any closing thoughts before I read us out? No, this is, again, I would just, you know, if go online, go on to Twitter, you have to check out this TIF, the Esperon Sportive that Tunis did. And one of the big, they have these massive images of people who have demonstrated solidarity with Palestine. And there's one big Tifa that says, be on the right side of history.

And it's a really powerful, powerful image. So I think you go out to my Twitter X account, you should be able to find the video on there. And that's, by the way, one of the biggest clubs in all of Africa. It's not just like some random club. Esperance, the Tunis is a many, many time African Champions League winner. So it's great to see kind of those public displays from some of the biggest clubs out there and a hugely supported club on the continent. All right, Alex, can you let the listeners for letting me nerd out on football?

Oh, happy to do it. Can you let the listeners know where they can find you and your work? You can find my work at alexanderavina.com. I also write for an exchange newsletter, and I'm on Twitter at Alexander underscore Avina. Thanks, guys. Adnan, how can the list of you and your other podcast? You can find me on Twitter at Adnan-A-Husain, H-U-S-A-I-N.

My other podcast is The M-A-J-L-I-S, Middle East Islamic World, Muslim Diaspora stuff, and that's on all the usual platforms and hosted on Spotify. And I just want to say also watch maybe some videos of Raja, Casa Blanca, team. Also amazing, pro-Palestine, just like unstoppable. chance and, you know, fireworks going. So some of these North African clubs, as Alex is saying, are really impressive in the solidarity. They have some amazing songs, too. So, but yes, so listeners do check out the much lists and you can follow me on Twitter. Yeah, absolutely. For me, listeners, you can buy on me on Twitter at Huck 1995, H-U-C-1995. You can help support

the show and allow us to continue making episodes like this. or if you're not a big football fan like our other episodes, although we do hope that, you know, regardless of your opinions on the sport of football, in particular, that you still found this episode, at least somewhat enjoyable, you can help support the show at patreon.com forward slash gorilla history. That's G-U-E-R-R-I-L-A history.

And you can follow the show on Twitter to keep up with everything that we put out individually and collectively at Gorilla underscore pod. That's G-U-E-R-R-R-I-L-A- underscore pod. And until next time, listeners, Solidarity. I'm going to be able to be.