Guerrilla History - Indigenous Diamonds of Russia's Sakha Republic w/ Sardana Nikolaeva

Episode Date: March 28, 2025

In this episode of Guerrilla History, we bring on Dr. Sardana Nikolaeva to discuss her brilliant study Indigenous Diamonds: Extractivism and Indigenous Politics in the Diamond Province of Russia.  We go over Sakha and the Sakha people, the history of diamond extraction in Sakha, and then went over the politics of indigeneity in Russia, how these diamonds were branded as "indigenous", and how sanctions on Russia impact the indigenous Sakha people.  With so much in this conversation, you are sure to learn a lot, and we hope you will help by sharing this with your comrades!   Sardana Nikolaeva is a post-doctoral fellow at the University of Toronto, where she is an indigenous anthropologist studying indigeneity, indigenous methodologies, extractivism, and more.  She cowrote the wonderful paper we discussed today, which you should read here: https://www.ziibiinglab.org/indigenous-diamonds   Help support the show by signing up to our patreon, where you also will get bonus content: https://www.patreon.com/guerrillahistory 

You don't remember den, Ben, boo? The same thing happened in Algeria, in Africa. They didn't have anything but a rank. The French had all these highly mechanized instruments of warfare. But they put some guerrilla action on. Hello and welcome to guerrilla history. the podcast that acts is a reconnaissance report of global proletarian history and aims to use the lessons of history to analyze the present.

I'm one of your co-hosts, Henry Huckimacki. Unfortunately not joined at this moment by my usual co-host, who of course is Professor Adnan Hussein, a historian director at the School of Religion at Queen's University in Ontario, Canada, although we are hoping that he will be able to join us during the conversation before the end of it. So if you hear his voice magically come in during the middle of the conversation, that's why we have a really fascinating conversation ahead of us today with a really great guest,

somebody who we've been chatting with, that I've been chatting with, rather, off the record before we got into this conversation and we have a lot to cover in this conversation. But before I introduce the guest and have her introduce her research interests and the study in particular that we'll be talking about today, I would like to remind you listeners that you can help support the show and allow us to continue producing episodes like this. by going to patreon.com forward slash guerrilla history. That's G-U-E-R-R-I-L-A history. And you can keep up to date with everything that we are doing individually as well as collectively by following us on various social media platforms. We're on Twitter at gorilla underscore pod. Again, Gorilla 2Rs. We're on

Instagram, Gorilla underscore History. And probably the best way to keep up to date with everything is by joining our free substack, GorillaHistory.substack.com. And that way you'll get updates periodically, not super frequently, to your email inbox directly without having to rely on a social media algorithm to tell you what we're doing. So with that housekeeping out of the way, I am very pleased to be joined by Sardana Nikolaevah, who is a postdoctoral fellow at the University of Toronto. Hello, Sardana. It's nice to have you on the program. Can you tell the listeners a little bit about yourself and your research interests? Yes. Thank you very much for having me. I'm very excited as a fan of the show for some time. I think I listen to most of your

episodes. That's a lot of episodes. It's a lot of hours. So I'm very excited. I walk a lot. So thank you very much for having me and having this conversation about the study, the collaborative study that we did at the Zibing Lab, the Global Indigenous Politics Collaboratory, with the Department of Political Science of the University of Toronto, and I was the inaugural postdoctoral fellow of Zipping Lab in 2022-2020, where during that time, this is the major special study that we completed by the end of 2024. And I'm myself from the Sahari Public, which is the northeastern part of Russia, and it's like some of the part of it. I'm like half, but like half of it is located in the Arctic, and I am the member of the indigenous Sahara group within the Sahara

Republic. I did my studies in Russia, United States, and Canada, and my most recent degree is in doctoral PhD in cultural anthropology from the University of Manitoba, which is in city of Winnipeg in Canada. And I mostly do research on extractivism, indigenous politics, politics of indigenity. I'm also interested in the, currently I'm very much interested on the research on economic sanctions and how the indigenous peoples are experiencing the sanctions regime. But I'm also very keen in learning more about the research ethics and the indigenous methodologies. especially for scholars who primarily work in the indigenous Arctic.

Yeah, absolutely fascinating. I know that we talked about a couple of other projects that we could talk about together again on the show in future conversations. But today's conversation is a very interesting one, and I am going to put a pin in that discussion of sanctions as well, because somebody who lives in Russia and we had the entire series on the show, sanctions as war. sanctions are a topic that when related to the conversation is definitely something that I like to bring in. But the discussion that we're going to be having today is going to be based on your research project, Indigenous Diamonds, which really is a terrific project. And I also want to shout out the Red Nation, which is with our dear comrade and friend Nick Estes.

I heard about this project originally on the Red Nation podcast and checked out the work immediately and I have to say this conversation on guerrilla history is long overdue because it's been a project that's been on my mind for a couple years since that episode came out of the Red Nation. So again, the title of the project is Indigenous Diamonds, Extractivism and Indigenous Politics in the Diamond Province of Russia. All of that will be linked in the show notes below. So I highly recommend the listeners check that out. But before we get to the project itself, Can you talk a little bit more about Saha with the listeners? As you mentioned, it's in the northeastern part of Russia, and it's, I mean, it's kind of famous for two things, or maybe three things.

One is that it's more or less the diamond capital of the northern hemisphere, if not the world. And other is that... Unfortunately. Yeah, it's very famously one of the coldest places in the world. And another thing it's famous for is that it's, if I remember correctly, the largest single administrative division of, any place in the world. It's about the same size area-wise as India, but not quite the population of India. So can you talk a little bit about Saha, the Saha people also, and a little bit then into the history of discovery of diamonds within Saha, because that's really where this

conversation regarding your research project is going to take off from then. Right, right. So the Saha people are not. not federally recognize indigenous, you know, like as according to the constitution of 1991, I believe. However, we are indigenous to the Sahari Republic, and they're also smaller indigenous groups like Evanki, who I predominantly work with for my research studies. But we are indigenous to the region. And as you have mentioned, it's very cold. It's one of the coldest areas because half of it is located in the Arctic.

And also, it's because of that, it's very sparsely populated. So our population is not very big. It's only maybe like 490 something,000 people. and it's famous with the, again, as you have mentioned, with the diamond mining, which started in the 1950s, but also aside from the diamond mining, the Saudi Republic is also very popular and very famous with the other natural resources. So it has been essentially the primary location where most of the natural resources come within Russia. So I guess this is the, I don't think you know what else is it.

Well, I have a small follow-up then. Can you talk a little bit? So you have this really handy timeline in the beginning of the report itself that I like to refer to from time to time to keep things straight in my head in terms of when they happened. But one of the things that might be interesting also for the listeners is how Saha became part of Russia. I know that's not like really a focus of the study, but might be at least interesting because Saka is not, I mean, within Russia. We actually, believe it or not, we talk about it pretty frequently at my place of work. And amongst friends, I have several people that I want to go and do some tourism in Saha with. There's a couple of things there that we'd like to check out and do.

But so it's talked about, at least where I live and work here, it's talked about fairly frequently. But I'm guessing the vast majority of our listeners, if they've heard of Saha, have only heard of it in passing. So maybe a little bit more of that history of integration. within the Russian Empire might be stimulating and useful for them in terms of how this history then unfolds. So the area, which is now the Sahara Republic, has been integrated into the Russian Empire in 17th century, but it kind of like happened, you know, like gradually, so it didn't happen right away. but up to the beginning of the 20th century, the Russian Empire was not very much interested in granting the citizenship, you know, like to the Inorotsu, how they called the non-predominantly non-white population, you know, like the people who live in very far-flung areas within

what is now Russian Federation. So the process was very gradual And in the beginning we're not necessarily the part of the The part of Prussia It just happened It has been happening since 19 Since the 17th century And it started with the fur trading

But it was very unequal of fair trading It wasn't a hazzarly like trading trading it was the taxing, right, like the taxation in fur, which is very similar to what is happening with the other Arctic communities, like, for example, in the United States, what is now United States or what is now Canada. But these, in a sense, you know, like very sometimes violent, but also laid back attitude towards the local indigenous population, coming. from the imperial government, it changed in the early 20th century, when the local population, they became full citizens of the new Soviet Union.

And the what is now the Republic also became the part of the Soviet Union as a new autonomous Republic. So, and the, of course, you know, like the relationship with the central Russia has been very complicated, very complicated, mostly in my understanding, in my individual understanding because of the natural resources and because of the extractive activities. And also some of the, I guess, you know, like problematic policies that the imperial Russia and, And also the Soviet Union, they had towards the indigenous groups, indigenous communities, specifically in the north. But at the same time, you know, like, I grew up during the Soviet Union. I was, I caught, you know, like the 1980s.

And also the, I also caught and experienced the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1990s. and after the neoliberal Russia, that period as well. So in comparison, what is happening before, you know, like as objectively, I can say that our experiences as indigenous peoples were much better before 1990s, because they're very, their policies which came to be very beneficial for our people and also for the other smaller indigenous groups, but at the same time, I believe that we also need to have some critical perspective, right, on the experiences of minority groups during the Soviet times. And I guess, you know, like the only thing that I'm trying to do is not to view our experiences

as just black and white, you know, because they were very complex and we still have very complicated relationship with the central Russia, right? And it has been for a long time. And I would say, like, this is the only thing that I'm trying to do with my message. I'm trying to provide the, not necessarily the objective, because I'm from there, but more balanced perspective on, and conversations on our experiences at the time and nowadays as well. So, yeah, I just want to throw in real quickly. You mentioned that, of course, this was an autonomous republic, although autonomy is, you know, a relative term. And particularly, it's very murky. Yes, particularly when we're talking about places that are in research-rich locations. So when we have a people that supposedly, and I'm not talking with regard to Russia in particular, the Soviet Union in particular, but this is like almost a universal thing, that when we see

there is an indigenous group to an area, even when the federal government of that location grants them sovereignty or autonomy or whatever in their constitution, it seems like sovereignty and autonomy only goes so far when resources are present. And this is something that we see in many different locations. You know, you can look at the Sami in northern Finland, Sweden, Norway. Of course, we can talk about First Nations people in Canada, in very many research locations, and even today we see, you know, pipelines being built in indigenous territory in North America.

And in today's world, where we are supposedly we being the governments of the United States and Canada, I don't know why I always say we, but, you know, that's who I'm referring to, the United States and Canadian governments supposedly are at this stage where they do understand that these groups have sovereignty and autonomy. It only extends until they need to put a new pipeline in through indigenous territory. And then that sovereignty and autonomy magically disappears at that moment. So it's always interesting to think about what does autonomy mean at a given point in time and given the context of what is available in that area. And that's something that certainly is going to come up during this conversation regarding diamonds in

particular. But as you said, Saha is quite rich in a lot of other resources as well. But taking us to the period in which diamonds were discovered, I think that maybe the listeners might be interested to know if there was something akin to like a diamond rush. So, you know, we have this, and I am aware that a lot of our listeners, not the majority, but many of them are from the United States in particular. And when you think about these precious materials that are then found in these quote-unquote far-flung places like California back in, you know, 1849 or in Saha in the 1950s, what we see in the case of California in particular is this rush towards material. Actually, my home region, the Upper Peninsula of Michigan,

also had a rush of people looking for silver and gold as well. And when they came in, they found there wasn't much silver or gold. But there was a lot of copper. So some of them did stay for that. But there were these mineral or material rushes. Perhaps the listeners who are familiar with that history in the American context in terms of these material rushes would be interested to know if there was something

to a diamond rush once the diamonds were found in Saha. Yeah, like when I think about that, like historically speaking, I wouldn't call it a diamond rush because like the context, the economic and the political context was very different during the Soviet times, but like during the 1950s. But I believe that your listeners would be very interested to learn that actually the diamond mining, it also started with the sanctions. on the Soviet Union coming from the United States. Because in the beginning, you know, like Russia didn't, the Soviet Union, they didn't have any much of the interest in diamonds because, you know, like we're talking about the socialist states and there's not necessarily a big market, you know, like for these kind of like gems,

the gem market. But there was a high demand for global consumers, specifically in Europe, in the European countries, United States. and North America. So in the early 1950s, because the Soviet Union was a communist country, it has been heavily sanctioned by the United States. And in 1950, I believe it was in 1950, the United States Congress, they passed the Battle Act, which put the embargo on any materials which were considered to be as a

supplements, you know, like in the assistance for military development at the time in the social states, like, for example, Cuba or China, Korea at the time, and of course, the Soviet Union. And one of these materials were the technical diamonds. So initially, the Soviet Union was very much interested in technical diamonds because it was right after the World War II. and the diamonds became to be recognized as a very important part in building the military, but also technology. So the Soviet Union was in the Soviet government in the time they are much more interested in the technical diamonds, but not necessarily in gem diamonds. And this is how everything started because the sanctions coming from the United States, they cut. the excess of the Soviet Union to the internationally available global diamond market.

And they used to buy it from the European companies, specifically the beers, which is the South African UK company. So they used to have, like before that they used to buy it from them. However, everything changed after that sanctions, after that embargo. and at the time, you know, like, Soviet government was like, we have huge territory and they're bound to be something, you know, like some diamond deposits, and this is how all started. And the early geologists, they found these similarities of the geological formations. Yeah, geological formations. I guess, you know, like in the nature,

you know, geological nature, which was observed in South Africa, in the diamond deposit in South Africa. So they found the similar formations in my home region. And this is how I was studied. And the first diamond was discovered in 1954. In 1954 and the first diamond deposit was opened also in

1954. Yeah. Yes. So this is the rush that we're talking about. But we need to remember that, again, the search was for technical diamonds because of the embargo. And then, however, the interest shifted, you know, like over time to the gem diamonds

because the deposits that we have in the Sahari public, They have predominantly jam diamonds, and apparently they are very specific, and they're very valuable to the international consumers, specifically European and American consumers, and the Soviet Union at the time, you know, like in 1960s, they realized that, you know, like we're going to have more profit from the gem diamonds in comparison to the tactical diamonds. And this is how the whole dealing with the deep years studied in late 1950s. And it continued till, I think, yeah, I think they still have some kind of, some kind of, you know, that partnership in exporting the diamonds coming from my home region. So I have one more kind of history-heavy question before I turn towards focusing on the study itself. a little bit more, which is that, you know, you mentioned that the first diamond was found in 1954, but then the amount of diamonds that come out are just remarkable. Before the sanctions began in 2022, Saha was supplying a full 25% of the global market of diamonds. Now listen,

let that number sink in for a second. This one region is supplying 25% of the entire global market of diamonds up until the point in which sanctions were imposed in 2022. So how does that dynamic work in terms of going from diamonds not being discovered there until 1954, which is relatively late compared to many other diamond-preting areas, to being a full quarter of the world's global diamond supply. And this is also, you know, keeping in mind listeners, just about halfway through there, a little bit more than halfway through that period of time

is the dissolution of the Soviet Union and that process continues unabated in terms of diamond production through that period of time and continues to ramp up up until, as I mentioned, the point where sanctions are imposed at 2022. So can you take us through

that history of how Sahab became so productive in terms of supplying the global diamond market and kind of who was responsible for extracting these diamonds and the who is kind of the more interesting question given the dissolution of the Soviet Union and not interregnum there so the during the Soviet period because again we're talking about the socialist state these kind of large-scale

industries they belong to the Soviet nation I like so they were 100% nation So, and the profit, they're also going to the, they're going to Central Russia, but, you know, like they were, but afterwards the profits with the dealings with Dibir's specifically, because Dibir's at the time since 1960s, have been buying most of the diamonds produced within the Soviet Union. despite, you know, like, and they had these agreements that despite how much produce, they did the beers, had to buy most of it. And, you know, like, despite the quality, despite the quantity, the, I believe, like, 95 or up to 99% of all the time, it's they're going to the beers. So, so it was a nationalized industry and it belonged to the whole Soviet nation. but the Sahara Republic is the autonomous republic

have been at the time, have been receiving its portion of the dividends and the profits in the form of the subsidies. And these subsidies, they used to develop infrastructure, you know, like to develop the educational and for educational and cultural development in, you know, like in all of these different, again, national projects, national projects which were important for the Soviet nation at the time. However, this relationship changed

in 1990s with the dissolution of the Soviet Union. When throughout 1990s, there was this struggle between the Central Russia, the new federal government. and the new government of the Sahari public. At the time, the sovereign of the sovereign Sahari public. And because Sahari public is located in quite isolated, in the remote area and the climate is very harsh, despite the fact that the population is quite small, but still the region always required more.

assistance coming from the central government. And when everything collapsed, like everything just stopped. And I believe that the people who grew up during the 1990s who experience, you know, like this collapse in the Soviet Union, they would understand what I mean, you know, like when literally overnight, everything changes, everything collapses. But our new sovereign government, they decided that they're going to try to create the benefit to the local population, more benefit to the local population, through regionalizing, in a sense, or maybe like using the term also like nationalizing, you know, like locally nationalizing the most lucrative industry that we had at the time, and the most developed one, the diamond industry. They nationalized the company. They created the company, Al-Rosa, the al-Mazes, Russia, Saha, the diamonds of Russia

and the Saha, which had some of the connection to the central government, but at the same time, most of it belonged to the new sovereign republic. So that way we received the directly the benefits and the profits coming from the diamond mining industry. But also at the same time, there's like very interesting development, specifically in my home village, for example, which was the hub of the diamond mining industry since 1950s to the point that, you know, like I usually say that like three or four generations of my, of my, of my, family, you know, like in our community, where this way or another way affected by the extractive activities which were happening in our territories. So, and the developments that were happening within, for example, my village and also some other areas, which also were the centers of the diamond mining, the, the, the

development of the cutting industry, cutting and polishing of diamonds, which used to be done in central Russia. But because the new government,

they decided that, okay, we're going to create more employment opportunities and try to get more profit from the diamond mining. So we need to have cutting and polishing activity. within the region.

And I clearly remember that in the 1990s, like early 1990s, there was this surge of employment opportunities for cutting and polishing the diamonds for the local people. But most of it disappeared in late 1990s, early 2000s. You know, like when Al Rosa became partly federalized, you know, like the...

The essential Russian government, at the time, like also in 1990s, they didn't like that the Sahara Republic as only one region. They hold more power within the diamond mining industry. And they're also like, you know, like personal conflict with Boris Yelsen and our president at the time, Mikhail Nikolaev. So it was like very complex, you know, like complex situation. And what happened is now the federal government, the central Russian government, they own 25% of shares. And we own, this is like 25%, or it was, or 32%, 32%, and we own the other 32% of the shares for the company Alarosa. so it's an equal sharing but at the same time I forgot I didn't know what I was going to say so that's okay well we'll stop right there because I want to come back to you would mention

the impacts of the extractive industry and that's something that'll certainly come up when we talk about the study itself and also this idea of how the company is being shared in various ways and that'll also loop back to sanctions at the end of the conversation. But I do want to take a step back from that heavy focus on history at the moment and turn back to the study itself now. So we've kind of been kind of going over the history of Saha in Russia and in terms of the diamond discovery and development of that industry within Saha. But now I want to talk about the project itself. So, you know, you've mentioned in your previous answer some personal connections that you have, as most

people in Sahadu with the diamond industry in the Republic. But what made you decide to take up this particular project indigenous diamonds? What was kind of the germ in your mind that made you decide that this was the project that you were going to take? And then what was the way in which you originally saw the project taking form when you were kind of visualizing what this project would be at that initial step? And what was the methodology that you set out with when you began this project. So a little bit of a nerdy question. But, you know, our listeners are nerds. So, you know, they won't be insulted by me calling them. I mean, you listen to the show and you know you're a nerd. So here we go. Okay. So the study itself started with my dissertation. When I was a

student, PhD student in the anthropology department of the University of Manitoba. So my dissertation was about indigenous activism, specifically focusing on women's indigenous indigenous women's activism in my whole region, and I worked with women activists in the Arctic with the indigenous Avanki and Sahar women. And at the time, I did my research in 2017, 2018. I did the ethnographic field work.

And during that time, the indigenous territory, which is, you know, like in the higher Arctic, was experiencing the beginning of extractive activities, specifically diamond mining extractive activities in their homelands. And so I had this. interest because I also come, as I have mentioned, I come from the community, from the village, which has been the hub of the diamond mining industry since the very beginning, since 1950s. So I had this, you know, like the natural interest, I guess, based on my own experiences and the experiences of my family and my communities. And what intrigued me the most is that we were embroiled in a sense.

you know, like our lives and experiences were intersected with the diamond mining since 1950s, but these communities, they're just going to experience what we went through. And that's why I became very interested, you know, like how these indigenous communities, how they're going to view this encroaching extract effective. activities and how they built the relationship with the company, but also what is their perception, you know, like of what is happening on their lens. So this is how it started, and I did my ethnographic research, and I wrote my dissertation, again, specifically focusing on the indigenous activism.

But then when I came to University of Toronto as a postdoctoral fellow, my supervisor, he advised me to use some of the data that I collected, but I didn't use in my dissertation and maybe have some a different perspective, you know, like on diamond mining and also the indigenous experiences within the region. And, you know, like, I was at the time in the beginning in September, I like, I clearly remember September 2020. I was reading, I read our local regional news, like every day. And I noticed these new narratives, you know, like popping up, coming out within our regional newspapers, connecting indigenous identities and indigenous cultures to the, diamond mining and two diamonds. And it was something very new to me, because I haven't seen that before. And another thing that I got interested is how this very complex relationship between the

local indigenous peoples and diamonds as an object has been visually represented. And not only visually, but also discursively represented in the mass media, but also in know, like in the company, the Alrosa company, reports and the narratives that they created about their work on the, within the region. So I got very interested in that, and I decided that, you know, like this is something very new, very, very new discourses that I have never seen before. And the, and this is how it also. studied because the, and this is where the title comes from, because the diamonds which

are come from my home region at the time and now they became to be represented as indigenous diamonds, you know, like through this connection, you know, like artificially created connection to indigenous identities and the indigenous cultures and the and also indigenous labor. And I found these dynamics to be very interesting. And that's why I decided to explore it more, to look at the history of diamond mining, to look at the history of indigenous identity of recognition,

because it's in a lot trying to understand how the indigenous identities and indigenous identities, how they are articulated in my home region, And also try to see and try to analyze the experiences of the local indigenous communities. And intersecting and interconnecting all of these discourses and narratives together. And this is how the study was boring. Well, that leads us to talking about what's in the study then. So within this study, you have three chapters.

And they're titled, Who is Indigenous in Russia, a History of Diamond Production in the Sakha Republic and Indigenous Diamonds? Part 2 or Chapter 2, a history of diamond production in the Sahara Republic. We talked about a bit in the kind of history discussion that we had before. And you did mention the question of who is considered indigenous a little bit in your initial answer, like the very first answer that we had in this conversation. But I think that that is definitely where we should turn the conversation to now. And I'll just open the discussion with the question that you pose in the title of that chapter. Who is indigenous in Russia? And then can you describe also the way in which you tried to tackle this question and analyze it?

Yeah. So it's a very good question to start because... Patch yourself on the back. Yes. Yes, exactly. So as I have mentioned before, Sahai people, we are indigenous to the Sahari public. However, federally, legally speaking, we're not recognized as indigenous, and we don't have the indigenous status. However, we are recognized as indigenous according to the international standards of indigenity, which are formulated in United Nations Declaration on, rights of indigenous peoples.

And, you know, like, and aside from that, we always knew that we are indigenous to this lens. So, you know, like, the, uh, generally speaking, the politics of recognition of indignity and of who is indigenous are very different from one place to another, from one nation state to another, you know, like considering the, uh, historical, uh, background and, the political situation and the economic conditions and such. So we need to remember that. You know, like so in a sense that who is indigenous in who is a recognized as indigenous

in one place can be non-recognized as indigenous in another place because they, how the legal politics of recognition they work, they are very, again, they are very diverse and very different from place to another. In Udin Basha, before 1990s, the indigenity was connected to the groups which were recognized as small-numbered indigenous groups, small-chislini and these category was formulated

in the early years of the Soviet Union and the primary characteristics of the small number of indigenous peoples were connected to in this different culture, the traditional

economy, like for example hunting, fishing, and gathering and trapping. But most importantly, it was connected to the quantity in order to the population size. So if the group was more than the population of the group was more than 50,000 people, it was not recognized as indigenous,

despite the fact that they might have recognized themselves as indigenous. And this was actually the primary reason, like why we're not recognized as indigenous since, you know, like since that time. And after the dissolution of the Soviet Union, they knew federal government of the Russia, they kind of like continued with that legacy of politics of recognition. And however, they also mentioned. In some of the documents that I found from the 1990s, you know, like when they put together the very specific classification and the criteria for who can be recognized as individuals within the Russian Federation in post-1990s, 1991 Russian Federation. So they also try to make it not necessarily equivalent,

but similar to the international categorization of indigenity. But interestingly, at the same time, Russia, as a nation state, they didn't ratify the Andrip, the United Nations Declaration on Rights of Indigenous Peoples, Because since 1990s, they claim that, you know, like, we have better way of recognizing indigenousity, but also better support system and the service is provided for indigenous peoples within the Russian Federation. So this is the, because of that, you know, like because of this numerical criterion that exists only within Russian Federation. it doesn't exist anywhere else. Like, for example, us as Sahara people

who are not recognize as indigenous. And neither are the Crimeans, just as a Crimean Tatars example for my wife is Kramian Tatar. And they are not federally recognized as indigenous people, even though if you look at international recognition of the group, they are internationally recognized as an indigenous people but aren't recognized within Russia as an indigenous people, similar to the Sahat people.

So it's a very unique politics of recognition that exists only within the Russian Federation, you know, like the emphasis on the, on the population size. And yeah, so this is how the politics of recognition work. However, it doesn't mean that, you know, like they are indigenous peoples who are, who self-identify and self-recognizes indigenous peoples and including my group, for example. Yeah. And it's really interesting to, you know, examine again the ways in which indigenity is conceptualized by the group that is indigenous versus the way that indigenity is conceptualized by a federal government that is governing over the people. And, you know, you did touch on that a little bit in your answer and also has explored more in this paper. But I think that, you know, unfortunately, we're not going to have. time to dive so deep into all of these topics. There's really so much that I want to talk about, but I am being cognizant of the fact that we have a hard cutoff time today. So I want to skip past chapter two, which again is the history of diamond production in Saha, since we did refer to that in the opening part of this conversation and jump to chapter three indigenous

diamonds. And this really picks up, you mentioned in the introduction to this chapter since 2021 Ulrosa became a public company with shares traded on the Moscow stock exchange. And then you talk more about the breakdown in terms of how those shares are then split about. And you did talk a little bit about that in a previous answer as well. But this question of indigenous diamonds, you know, we were just talking about this question of indigenity, who is indigenous in Russia. And now you turn us to indigenous diamonds. And this is really a fascinating process in terms of this conceptualization. and this process of conceptualization.

So can you take us into that part of your study, and I may have a couple of follow-ups depending on how you address it? So, you know, like this thinking about the diamonds as indigenous diamonds, it specifically came from the company narratives that I mentioned before that I found to be very intriguing and completely novel because previously the diamonds were not necessarily connected to the representations of the diamonds, they are not necessarily connected to the, to indigenity, and especially speaking to the local indigenity and to the local indigenous communities.

However, how it became to be connected is, I believe, because of the very recent developments, globally speaking, especially in North America, of the processes of indigenization of various commodities, you know, like within the global market of, again, of different commodities, how indigenity came to be seen as profitable. So we're talking about the processes of the commodification of indigenity, right? And I observed the same processes in the company narratives as well. And this is how the indigenity conducts to diamonds. Because when I think about that, and I believe I mentioned that before,

but it's important to remember that most of the, I would say, like 99% of consumers of diamonds coming from my home region, They are in the West, within the Western societies, the Western consumers, predominantly European consumers and also North American consumers, the American and the Canadian. And it has been historically like that since 1950s, since the very beginning. And it is actually quite ironic because, you know, like, we produce up to 99% of all diamonds. However, we don't ourselves consume them because we just don't have any money. I literally don't know anyone who, you know, like in my family or invite like among my friends,

you know, like who have any diamonds. So like I found that to be very interesting, right? Like, and another thing like that we need to remember is that we're talking about the capitalist production and the production is connected to. to the consumption. And this is actually the question that not so many people ask, you know, like in my home region and also within Russia as well, you know, like we're producing all of these, all of these diamonds,

you know, like 99% of like 25, up to 27% of all the global diamond market. But no one asked the question, like, who is buying all of these diamonds? Like, who are the consumers? Who is generating, you know, like in the perpetuating the extraction? activism, these horrible extractive activities in my form region. So this is actually the question that I decided to think about more and to ask in the study, specifically in the, in chapter three, because, you know, like I observed and experienced the impact of extractivism, of diamond mining.

I'm going to put the pin in that specific point right there, the impact of the extractivism. And, you know, I'll also just circle back. for one brief second before I have you dive a little bit deeper into the impacts of the extractive diamond industry. You know, you mentioned that you don't know anybody in Saha personally who has diamonds from Saha. This is also, you know, true in most of these mineral-rich locations. If you look at diamond mines in South Africa, again, if you go in the communities that are making up the vast majority of the workers in those diamond mines, you are not going to find any workers that have diamonds or family members of those workers who have diamonds. And if you do

find them, they will be arrested for stealing the diamonds because they certainly don't have the money to buy them. It's like that not just with diamonds, but in most of these places, which are, the economy is based on extraction of some precious primary commodity. You don't see people who are producing it, able to do it. So I just wanted to also, you know, draw that parallel between what you see in Sahara and also in the diamond-producing regions of Southern Africa as well. But sorry, you want to say something on you? Yeah, but I was going to say, you know, like, but the discourses that surround the diamonds

coming from the Sahara Republic, they're very different. Exactly. Right? Because, because they're connected to indigenous, because the, this connection to indigenity, you know, like in a sense, indigenous diamonds, right? They become even more unique. And within the capitalist system, because of this rarity and uniqueness of the diamonds coming

from the indigenous territories, they become more valuable to the wasting consumers. Well, and that was actually the exact point that I was going to drive towards is that whether you see it's coming from this, place where the diamond would be considered a blood diamond, or if you go to a place where the diamond is considered an indigenous diamond, you still don't see local communities utilizing that, you know, like in their family as part of their family heirlooms or jewelry or whatever. It's very similar in

those two, even though the narrative, and we have an episode upcoming on narrative, like the entire episode will be based on narrative coming soon with a couple of guests, but the narrative is extremely different between those two, even though on the story. that specific point, it's the same. Now, I also want to turn back towards where you were talking about the impacts of extraction. And again, the impacts are felt where in indigenous communities, we're talking about negative impacts, environmental impacts, you know, societal impacts within indigenous communities as a result of the extraction of these indigenous diamonds. So can you talk a little bit about those impacts...

on the communities within the areas that are extracting, again, quote-unquote, indigenous diamonds. Most importantly, of course, in that, like, it's imperative to talk about the environmental impact because the company Al Rosa, they operate the open pit mining activities, which means that you just, you know, like, digging the hole, you know, like digging the hole since 1950s, you know, like in different areas within the so-called diamond act coming from is quite horrible and very harmful, not only for the environment, but the nature, but also to the local communities, because we as indigenous people, we practice the mixed economy. So we are in, we are, we are, we are, we are employed, you know, like in the wage labor, but at the same time, we have been practicing

our traditional economies since for a long time. We never stopped, you know, like the, so my people were involved in hunting, fishing, gathering, herding, horse herding, but also in the high Arctic, you have the smaller indigenous communities who were involved in the reindeer herding. And the, as you can imagine, You know, like when the environment changes and when the environment becomes harmful, it directly affects the non-human life. And not only talking about the animals, you know, like that we hunt, not only the fish, but also the rivers and the air and the soil. But, you know, like the experiences of that, of course, they are very, they are very, they are very, it. They're very diverse because some communities, they're located much closer to the diamond

deposits, to these, you know, like the holes. Again, remember, listeners, the area, the region that we're talking about is the size of India. So some of these communities will be very far away from the diamond producing locations and others are basically right on them. Yes. And, for example, when I was doing my research with the Evenka communities in one of the indigenous territories in the high Arctic, most of the conversations were about reindeer herding and the hunting reindeer, the wild reindeer. So for example, one of the villages that I visited and I talked to the village, the members of this village, they told me

they didn't have the wild reindeer running closer to them, you know, like for hunting. for almost 10 years since the beginning of the geological explorations explorations for diamond deposits in the area. And considering that they don't have any other opportunities for protein supply, it makes a huge impact. So it creates the very intense food insecurity

and it has been happening for almost 10 years to the point that actually the village, that village which was like much more isolated and remote in much like in the high Arctic, they told me that they have to buy reindeer meat from the administrative center. And it doesn't make any sense because they are in the like traditionally wild reindeer hunters and they are also traditionally

the reindeer herders. And another case, I would think, the important case can be the pollution of the waters. And it was actually the pollution of the water was one of the important causes of the conflict that happened in 2015, 2016, between this specific village and the community, this community. in the indigenous territory and the diamond mining company because the diamond mining company they didn't receive the consent

to do the explorations for diamond deposits and of course the local people were very concerned about that because again the explorations were taking place on the river. And that river was the only source of fresh water source for the local people.

And that's why they decided that, you know, like, we're going to oppose the explorations, you know, like, and the further development of the binding close to the river. However, in 2016, so it was going on, like, for one year, but in 2016, they ultimately agreed, you know, like to explorations and also, you know, like further development of the mining because of the very harsh conditions that most of the indigenous communities in the Arctic they experience because the company, they promise, you know, like the infrastructure development and also to provide the monetary subsidies to the local community. and, you know, like, support the educational projects and the cultural projects within the several local communities as well. So, and, you know, like I talk all about this in the chapter three. And one of the, one of the things that I want the readers to take from the study, but also from specific from the, from the chapter three is that how complex the experiences are. and how complicated it can become for the local communities

who are trying to negotiate between their existence as indigenous peoples, you know, like practicing the traditional economies. But on the other hand, also thinking about, in a sense, you know, like the social reproduction and the community reproduction, that unfortunately, currently can't happen without involvement of the outside, you know, like of the outside forces, like taking, in that case, for example, the diamond mining company. I want to dive in a little bit deeper on this specific point because I think that it just problematizes the story in an interesting way and in a useful way because it's very easy for, for those of us on the, you know, ecological left, pro-Indigenous left, to think in terms of

negative impacts solely of extraction. But as you point out, the company does promise a lot of good and actually does deliver a fair amount of, as you mentioned, not as much as they promise, most certainly, but they do deliver a fair amount of good in terms of, you know, social reproductive value. And that is an important part of the story to tell as well, because if you are solely focusing on the environmental side of things, which of course, we need to heavily focus on. And we also need to heavily focus on the way that it disrupts indigenous traditions, lifestyles, the indigenous economy, we do also need to think about these things that are promised and some of which,

as you know, correctly point out, not nearly all of, but some of which actually are carried out. And that's an important part of the story as well for people to be aware of. So can you talk a little bit about what has Ulrosa? I don't want to ask like what have they promised because of course, you know, over time, there's always new things that are coming out in terms of what's going to be happening. But what are some of like the major initiatives or projects that they state that they are in support of? And then turning towards what we actually see, can you talk about some of the actual positive things that have come as a result of diamonds being extracted? And also some of these promises which have not been fulfilled.

So for generally speaking for the Sahari public, the diamond mining industry, is extremely important. And this is one of the things that a lot of people don't understand. You know, like, especially now with the sanctions on the company, directly on the company, people don't necessarily think

how the sanctions and the, this, you know, like created sanctions regime on the company within Russia, how it's going to affect the local indigenous peoples who directly depend, unfortunately, on the diamond mining industry.

The Sahari Republic, the budget of the Sahara public up to 47% comes from the extractive activities, specifically diamond mining. And it's a huge number. Again, considering that we live within extremely harsh climate, the infrastructure development is very difficult. And also we're located in quite isolated remote area. These are the things that we need to take into consideration.

When I think about the diamond, minding activities and also how the local people, how they essentially survive, right? Because during the Soviet times, most of the services that have been provided by the government. But nowadays, it's very different. So most of the services, they are, they go on only when they're predominantly supported by the by the dividends, you know, like the profits, the shares coming from the diamond mining industry. So there is a heavy budget dependence, regional budget dependence, on the revenues from the diamond mining industry. And I think it's kind of like complicates things, you know, like from the get-go, right?

So what they do... Just if I may, I mean, the whole discussion is so complicated because there's... layers that emerge because of previous layers. So just thinking about some of the previous things that you mentioned, Saha is very remote. It's very difficult to get from place to place. And so if you're thinking about what is required for people to travel, that is quite difficult.

And then you also think about one of your previous answers where you state that people in some of the smaller localities are no longer able to do reindeer herding as a result of some of the extractive processes that are taking place as a result of the diamond industry. So what does that mean? In order to get reindeer meat, these people have to travel. Well, if they're going to travel, they also need the ability to travel, which requires capital to come in. And where does the capital come in from? The same diamond industry that has disrupted the indigenous economy and has made it essential for those people to travel to the urban centers to get the reindeer meat.

So again, just by uncovering one layer, you then problematize this entire discussion further by creating new layers that are built upon it. And at the end of it, you're left at a point where you're thinking, okay, so how do we analyze this? Because, you know, if it wasn't for this, we wouldn't have this. If we didn't have that, we wouldn't have that. But we do have this. So we need this.

There's all of these layers that are built on one another. So, you know, thinking through those questions is really a difficult thing indeed. Right. They also concert negotiations, right? Like with the central Russian government, our regional local government and company. So it is also like very complex. But in other, like when you think about the, I would say like the important question is how our regional government, but also the rural governments, the rural administrative centers, the communities, right?

Like the communities, how they use the money that they receive from some of the shares that they have. And I think this is the important question to ask and how they use it. So most of the money, like, for example, my community, community and also the communities where I did my research in the Arctic, they invest in the community. So it doesn't go to one person. You know, like when I think, like, this is like very capitalist relations, very nearly liberalized capitalist relations. However, if you look at how the local people, they spend money that they get from extractive activities. It's like I believe that it's going to changes the perspective. So how they spend it? So they

invest in infrastructure development, which is extremely important in the Arctic. And I'm talking about the very rural communities. You know, like we are very remote, but also like imagine, you know, like much more rural areas in the higher Arctic. It's very difficult to get. So the infrastructure development is the key. And so this is where they invest. You know, like the first thing that they do is the investment in the infrastructure development. And the secondly, most admirably, they invest in the educational development and the cultural

development within these very small communities. So in a sense, you know, like they try to elevate the community, you know, like the people who live within the, people who don't have a lot of opportunities, especially in the rural Arctic areas. Like, and the, you know, like, thinking about infrastructure development, it's when I was in one of the Arctic villages, it was very unusual for me to see how all the houses, private houses and also, you know, like some of the apartment buildings, like small apartment building that they had within this Arctic village,

they were all of them, they were connected with the heating system. And they had, you know, like the heating center. And it is extremely unusual to see in the Arctic village, like how all the houses they're connected. So the administrative center decided that, you know, like we have a lot of old people, you know, like who can't heat their houses by themselves. And this is the first thing that we need to do with the first, the revenues that come from the new extractive activities on our territory.

If I'm used to add, I want people to conceptualize this for a second because when we're talking about these rural localities in Sahat, we're talking about an area that's on permafrost. So in order for the heating to be brought into people, we're talking about above ground. pipes that carry hot water from a boiler to multiple houses with very thick insulated cladding surrounding them to each of these buildings. What that means is that there is a large amount of investment that's required because you're having to build a boiler plant in this village, not an administrative center. You're going to have to connect it and insulate it to each of the houses, most of which would have originally been set up for heating internally with wood fire. you need to get the materials, you need to get the labor. Yes, you need to transport all of those things to these rural localities and, of course, upkeep because once the insulation goes on that external insulation on the outside of these

above ground pipes, once that starts to go, well, your heating is no longer particularly effective. So you're also having to have constant maintenance over time on us. So what we're talking about here, it may seem trivial to people who aren't familiar with the way in which that work would have to be carried out. But actually, just bringing that heat from a centralized location in a village. And rural Saha is a huge undertaking in terms of investment, in terms of material, and in terms of labor. So that's something that's definitely worth keeping in your mind, listeners.

For example, my village, where I'm from, we have the central heating only in central part of our village. You know, like the houses and the apartment buildings, you know, they are connected to the central heating. But for example, my family house were not and we have never been. You know, like it wasn't necessarily the important thing for our, unfortunately, for our administration to do. But and that's why I was amazed, you know, like when I saw that all of these, you know, like connections. And you can see the pipes, right? Like as we have said, it's like over the ground. So you could see like everyone.

And I was like, this is amazing, you know, like, and this is actually the decision, which was made not by one person, you know, like the head of the community, but it was made by all the community members. You know, like, and they, when they get their revenues, they come together and they decide as a community what is important. So the heating system was one of the most important things for them, like in the beginning since 2016, but they also, they built a new school because the old school was very old. It was from the, I think like from 1960s, probably or even early from the 1950s.

So you can imagine the condition. And it was very small, a small building. So they decided to know, like, we're going to invest in the development of education, you know, because we value our younger generation. They need to get the quality education, and they need to get that education within the, you know, like, comfortable conditions. And that's why it was very important for them

to build a new school house, this school building. But also they built a new hospital. And so, you know, like all of these, like, projects which benefit directly to the community and to the community members. But also, like, there is another thing that I found to be very curious when I was doing their research on the Alrosa Company reports, because, you know, like, they do include, you know, like, how much money they provided to the, to these, you know, like, to communities where they do the diamond mining.

So they lease, you know, like how much money and also how they used as well. They don't necessarily demand, you know, like how the communities use the revenues, but they do include that, you know, like how this money had been spent. And very interesting part of it was the, you know, like talking about the good and bad thing. providing the employment opportunities for the local, for the community members in the Arctic. Unemployment is a huge problem, especially in the rural Arctic areas. And for a lot of the community members, at least in the villages where I was, it was a very big deal, you know, to be employed by the company. However, it is a good thing, but also there is a complication there as well, because the company was hiring local people, yes, a very small percentage of the local people.

However, it was very often temporary, you know, kind of like the seasonal work. And if you look at the statistical data, you know, like what kind of employment they have, you know, like the workforce of the company. They are predominantly migrant laborers. So you know, we're talking about the people who come from Central Russia, from they come from Ukraine, you know, like they come from Belarusia, you know, like in the, and they come to work, you know, like for maybe like four or five months and then they leave and then they come back and so on. And the same politics is with the local people, unfortunately.

The politics of employment also very complicated with the company. But the funny thing is that in their reports, in English language, not in Russian language. In English language reports, the company states that their employment, their workforce, is 11.8% local indigenous people. However, if you look at the Russian report, the statistics is a bit different. So why they do that, you know, like they say, like, oh, we employ a lot of indigenous people, more than 1,000 indigenous people. But in this indigenous workforce, they include us, you know, like the people who are not recognized federally as indigenous, right? Curious how that works when it works to their advantage, right?

Yes, exactly. But because we're talking about the reports for international investors, right? And as you can imagine, because, you know, like, this is the region which is, you know, like, recognizes indigenous, you know, like, whatever. So they're trying to capitalize on that. So they say that we employ more than 1,000 indigenous people. And, you know, like, so the recognition politics, it doesn't necessarily recognize in a sense. But it is beneficial for them as in this internationally valuable large, one of the largest diamond mining companies.

However, in the Russian report, they have very different narrative. So I found that to be very interesting, you know, like how, again, you know, like how the company, in a sense, manipulates, right, like manipulates and create these narratives for different audiences. And they also have this, a lot of the conversation, not only, you know, like they say that we support the local indigenous peoples, but also they have these recently. They started naming the diamonds, the big diamonds that they extract from the indigenous territories. They started giving them indigenous names. I love that you had some images in the paper.

or that were, I don't want to say hilarious, but like, I don't know, I laughed when I saw them. Yeah, yeah. You know, like, so it's like, it's like, it's another very interesting how they're trying to, you know, like they connect, right? Like indigenity to diamonds as a commodity. So, but the problem is, but like, and I talk about that in my chapter three, the problem is that they utilize the, very archaic understanding of indigenousity, you know, like, and the very essentialist and the representation of local indigenous people as primitive, you know, like very traditional, living this primordial, you know, like the primitive lives, you know, like involved in the

reindeer herding, you know, like wearing these very traditional, you know, like the indigenous clothes, and this is the images that they use in order to sell, essentially sell the diamonds, right? So, and I find it to be very problematic because, again, it's very different from the how local indigenous people see themselves and how they want to represent themselves. But at the same time, because they have these dependence on the diamond mining and the revenues, very tight dependence, in some cases they have to follow these narratives that the company creates about them. And I found that to be very problematic. And this manipulation of the images, you know, like in the narratives and they're creating very, like I wouldn't say like

inauthentic, but very contrast. Yeah, like stereotype, like very contrived, like very stereotyped representation of indigenousity, of the local indigenity. But this is what the

Western customers love, right? When you think about that, because I can remember that the primary

consumers of the indigenous diamonds, they are in the West, and this is what they like. So,

and this is the word I talk about in my chapter three. Yeah, I want to turn,

we have unfortunately much less time than I would like because this conversation could go on forever.

It's a topic that I'm extremely interested in. But I want to turn towards the conclusion of your painter, which is very heavily focused on sanctions. And tying that together with the very last thing that you said, which is that the primary consumer of indigenous diamonds are those in the West. Now, we get to 2022. And not only are many, many, you know,

more than a dozen different sanctions packages put on Russia more generally, but the company Orozah itself also is sanctioned. And your conclusion examines that sanctioning and some of the impacts of that sanctioning. So can you take us through a little bit? And again, unfortunately, we're going to have to be somewhat, you know, brief maybe 10 minutes on this. But really, this is something that I could talk about all day

because sanctions is something we've talked about on the show a lot and something that I think about a lot as somebody living in Russia. But can you take us into that moment in 2022 where Al Rosa begins to be sanctioned and that cuts off the primary consumer from these indigenous diamonds? What is the impact? So what is the stated goal of this sanction, which stated goals of sanctions are never actually the goals of sanctions. We've talked about that in our sanctions is where a series ad nauseum. But what was the stated goal of that sanction on Al Rosa? And what is the actual impact of this sanction and also, you know, some ways in which the sanctions have been, I don't want to say circumvented, but some ways in which the sanctions...

They were. Yeah, okay, let's just say circumvented. So you're a little bit more blunt than me today, but that's okay. So I'll give it over to you, Sardana. Take that away. So what happened is since 2022, but also directly since 2022 and since 2024, I believe it was the spring 2024, the Alrosa, the largest diamond mining company within the Russian Federation, but also globally, has been sanctioned by many different countries in the West.

And I remember Bahamas was also involved in that. And I was like, what's happening in the Bahamas? It's like anyways. Money laundering and sanctioning, apparently, are the two things of the Bahamas, you know, specializes in. Okay, okay. That's a good point. So they have been sanctioned by the European Commission, by the United States, by the UK, you know, like in all of these countries. So what happened is the diamonds, the company was cut off from the global international market.

So the, as you say, as I have said, the Western consumers are now, you know, like cut off from the diamonds coming from my home region. However, they are always, there is always a way for the capitalists, right, for capitalists. So what happened is Russia studied, they have been employing the cutting and polishing labor in India for a long time. since late 2000s. So now they used to, you know, like directly state that these are diamonds which are coming from this company, you know, like, and they have been extracted from the Sahara Republic, you know, like, and such. But nowadays, they still, the diamonds, they go through India, but through the cutting and polishing and mixing with other diamonds, which come from the other diamonds, which come from the other. geographies, they lose that geographical distinction. And in a sense, they lose that distinction of being indigenous diamonds, probably

like coming from the indigenous region. And this way, they are still acquired by the companies in the West, in the Europe and also in the North America. So in a sense, the consumers, the wasn't consumers, the rich people, they still get their diamonds. But now it goes through the very complicated route. Yes. But also. Very similar to oil, I mean, as well.

It's not like it's not like there hasn't been sanctions that have been put on by various countries on the oil industry of Russia. And it's also not like we have various countries. And in this case, in the case of oil, particularly in Eastern Europe, who, and also in Turkey to some extent, will take oil from Russia and mix them in barrels with, you know, a couple of drops of oil from other places. And now it's mixed origin oil rather than Russian oil. This is very much the same story. Yes. So it's very similar. You know, like talking about these sort of global commodities, right?

which are, again, primarily consumed in the West. So, but another thing that the company started being, investing is exploring Asian market. Exploring Asian market and also Middle Eastern market, so which I found to be very interesting, like personally. So now they're going to advertise the diamonds to the. consumers in China, in Japan, you know, like in the, and also in the Middle Eastern countries. And I'm very curious to see what kind of narratives they come from. They come, you know, like they create in order to sell the diamonds to these new consumers. But another very important thing that the company declared, I believe, like a year ago,

since the beginning of the direct sanctions on the company is they are now saying that they are going to diversify their mining activities. So now they are going to focus not only on diamonds, which used to be like the thing before, only diamonds, but now they're investing heavily in exploration of all deposits and also the other, you know, like natural resources,

but they are talking about gold, they're talking about gas, they're going, they're talking about oil, but primarily oil. And now most of the explorations, they happen not in the southern part of my home region, but now they're going to take most of them in the Arctic. And as you know, yes. Yeah, I know. Go ahead.

You may say the thing that I would, is going to say anyway. Okay. And as everyone knows, you know, like, we're within the conditions of the climate change, you know, like, and the environment in the Arctic is the most fragile. And you can imagine what kind of impact that's going to be there. And another thing, like most of the indigenous peoples, within my home region, the smaller indigenous communities, they are located in the Arctic. And I can't even imagine how. they will be affected, you know, like by these explorations and the future activities. Yeah, just to add in briefly.

So the climate change is very much related to the point that I was going to make, which is that we have statements coming out from both the Russian administration and the American administration independently of one another, not just the current American administration either, but also the previous American administration. And now there is even talk about cooperation about using the Arctic and particularly the waterways of the Arctic as the climate change makes some of these sea routes passable, at least for more of the year, above the northern part of Russia and above the northern part of Canada. And so again, if you're thinking about exploration of oil in those northern parts of Sahar, you're right on, you know, that the, Arctic Ocean. And right on those routes in which they're talking about cooperation potentially of transit, of shipping, and also in terms of other economic potential. And that

would very much fit within that economic potential is utilizing those newly opened, opened as a result of melting polar ice caps, but it's open sea routes for transit and installing pipelines potentially in the Arctic Ocean, which is something crazy to think about, but very much fits within the rhetoric that we're hearing. But there is also another thing, you know, like another part of that, another aspect of the sanctions. The economic sanctions, they affect not only the local communities, like, for example, my community, you know, like the local indigenous communities in the Arctic,

but they're also going to affect the indigenous, specifically indigenous communities in the West. And also, you know, like in other places as well, because we talk. about how the Russian, the company, the Arrosa, has been cut off from the global diamond market, but it's a huge market. And the second, the third largest producer of diamonds in the world is Canada. Canada mostly extracts the diamonds in the north-west territories, which is indigenous territory, mostly indigenous peoples they live there, diverse indigenous peoples they live there. And, you know, like, I'm more concerned about that because I'm currently in Canada, you know, like, and I know some people there. And so what's going to happen,

Canada is not going to lose, you know, like, lose out on this opportunity. And because it's a 25% up to 27% of the global diamond market is. huge number. It's a huge profits. And the, and actually this is something that I noticed also I observed, you know, like from the recent data on the diamond production in Canada in the Northwest territories is the they actually upped and they increased and they intensified their diamond production in, in the, in the, on the indigenous territories. Again, just drawing parallels with with, you know, natural gas and oil. We saw the exact same thing with, American liquefied natural gas, when sanctions went on the Russian natural gas industry as well.

The natural gas, liquefied natural gas from Russia to Europe was essentially cut off to many parts of Europe anyway. And who stepped in to that niche immediately was the United States, that great profit to the United States and extreme detriment economically to Europe. So what you're talking about here is also very similar in terms of their. is going to be a niche opening up in terms of the global diamond market and diamond market from an indigenous place in particular that is now going to have a very obvious person to step into that and try to exploit that niche in the market. So, and that's why, you know, like I was trying to, and I'm very happy, you know, like to talk about this study here and I had these conversations before how the economic sanctions

they not only, you know, like they create the suffering of the indigenous communities in my home region, but they're also going to directly or indirectly affect the indigenous communities who are the most marginalized in Canada, right? Like they're going to affect these communities as well. So I believe that we need all be concerned about economic sanctions and think about how they affect the most marginalized and most, you know, with the most vulnerable communities within the countries which are sanctioned. So these are like some of the impacts, I would say, of the economic sanctions on the communities. But again, if you remember, we talked about the regional budget. For the last, I would say like two years, the company actually decreased the amount of the

revenues, you know, like that they give to the local regional government. And also, I think one year, they, maybe a couple of years, they actually skipped. They didn't, you know, they didn't provide it the share of the dividends that they were supposed to. And they claim that is because of the economic sanctions. So, and because of that, there are some articles from our regional newspapers. They were very concerned about that because they are like very large-scale projects

were frozen because the original budget didn't get the revenues that they shared, the revenues that they were supposed to get. So, and again, you know, like our regional government And one of the things that they try to do is they try to invest in the infrastructure development and the social development, you know, like providing the health services, educational services for the local people, which are not necessarily provided by the federal government, you know, like trying to fill that void. And this is, again, the direct impact effect of the economic sanctions on the local indigenous peoples. Sanctions are war, Sardana. Sanctions are war. Unfortunately, we are just about out of time.

As I said today, unfortunately, we had a hard cut off. But I can be happy to share with the listeners that you will be coming back on the show again. In the not too distant future with a colleague of yours, someone who you did a very, very interesting project on indigenous methodologies with. I won't introduce who the guest is now, but we'll, wait until you both are on the show soon and hopefully Adnan will be able to make that conversation as well. Really fascinating work and I'm really looking forward to that conversation. So I'm hoping that we can sort out the timing soon. I know it's it's very difficult to figure out a time that works for everyone when we have people in Canada, Russia and Indonesia all at the same

time. But we will make it happen. I promise we will make it happen. So on that note then, Again, listeners, our guest with Sardana Nikolaiva, who's the post-tactoral fellow at the University of Toronto. Sardana, thank you for the time and for the research that you did on this project. Again, we'll have the project itself linked in the show notes. But is there anything else that you would like to direct the listeners to if they wanted to find more of your work or the work that the laboratory is doing? So thank you very much for having me. This was very interesting conversation. And I apologize because I was a little bit all over the point.

place. That's me at my best is all over the place. Yes, and I feel like I miss a lot of the details, you know, like in the nuances from the study. But this is incentive, you know, like for your listeners to go and read and find much more interesting information and the much more interesting narrative, you know, like that I talked about today here. So I will be very excited if you read the study and if you find it, uh, information. and if you learn something new about my home region, there's a high public, about the experiences of indigenous peoples in the Arctic and, you know, like the history of the diamond mining industry, but also of the generally speaking. So I was very happy to be here.

And for now, we, the lab is a bit dormant. So there is no, a lot of things that I have. happening. But on my side, I'm trying to lift, you know, like this study on sanctions and the experiences of indigenous communities in the Arctic as the result of this, as a result of the economic sanctions. So I'm hoping that maybe in future, if I, you know, like finally complete this study, we'll have more to talk about. out. But other than that, I don't think, like, I have a lot of stuff, you know, like online. So, but if anyone has any questions, you know, like, I would be happy if you can contact. Yes. Absolutely. And I'll just read Adnan and myself out very quickly. My co-host, Adnan,

Hussein, unfortunately, was not able to make the discussion today, but you should follow him on Twitter at Adnan-A-Husain. You can follow me on. on Twitter at Huck, 1995, H-U-C-K-1-995. And just to remind your listeners that you can help support the show and allow us to continue making episodes like this by going to patreon.com forward slash guerrilla history. That's G-U-E-R-R-I-L-A history. And keep up to date with the show by following the show on social media.

We're on Twitter at Gorilla underscore pod. Again, Gorilla 2-Rs on Instagram, Gorilla underscore History. And you can subscribe to our free substack to keep up to date and get updates in your email inbox at gorilla history.substack.com. So until next time, listeners, solidarity. Thank you.