Guerrilla History - Palestine & the BDS Movement w/ Corinna Mullin

Episode Date: November 10, 2023

In another vital episode of Guerrilla History, we close out our Sanctions As War miniseries while continuing to examine Palestine and the various components of the conflict in Occupied Palestine.  This time, we bring on Corinna Mullin to discuss sanctions from below, the BDS movement, and how what those in the West can do to support the Palestine liberation movement.  This is a really important conversation, so be sure to share with anyone you think would benefit from hearing it! Follow the The International People's Tribunal on U.S. Imperialism and CUNY for Palestine for more information on the organizations Corinna is involved with. Corinna Mullin is an anti-imperialist scholar teaching at John Jay and Brooklyn College, City University of New York (CUNY). She researches, writes and teaches about: the politics and political economy of West Asia and North Africa, genealogies of global south security/carceral states, the politics of development, US imperialism, racial capitalism, anti-/decolonial theory and struggles, knowledge production, and popular education. Corinna has been involved in BDS struggles in the US, Tunisia and New York.  You can follow her on twitter @MullinCorinna Help support the show by signing up to our patreon, where you also will get bonus content: https://www.patreon.com/guerrillahistory

You don't remember den, Ben, boo? The same thing happened in Algeria, in Africa. They didn't have anything but a rank. The French had all these highly mechanized instruments of warfare, but they put some guerrilla action on. Hello, and welcome to guerrilla history. a podcast that acts as a reconnaissance report of global proletarian history and aims to use the lessons of history to analyze the present.

I'm one of your co-hosts, Henry Huckimacki, joined as usual by my two co-hosts, Professor Adnan Hussein, historian director of the School of Religion at Queen's University in Ontario, Canada. Hello, Adnan. How are you doing today? I'm well, Henry. It's great to be with you. Yeah, it's nice to see you as well, still in Istanbul, as I see. also joined as usual by Brett O'Shea who of course is host of Revolutionary Left Radio and co-host of the Red Menace podcast. Hello Brett. How are you doing? I'm doing very well. Thank you. And I see you're still in Nebraska as usual. As always. As always. Okay, listeners, we have a really fascinating topic, which is actually going to be the conclusion of our Sanctions as War miniseries. So if you want to hear the other episodes of the Sanctions as War miniseries, you can go back. have at least a dozen episodes within that mini-series at this point.

This will be the concluding one, and it's concluding on a very timely note. Before I introduce the topic and our guest, I just want to remind listeners that you can help support the show and allow us to keep creating episodes like this by going to Patreon.com forward slash guerrilla history. That's G-U-E-R-R-I-L-A history. All of your contributions are what allow us to continue doing this as we're 100% listener-funded and in return for your contributions, you do get some bonus content. Also, if you want to keep up to date with everything that we're putting out individually

and collectively on guerrilla history, you can follow us on Twitter at Gorilla underscore Pod. Again, that's G-U-E-R-R-I-L-A-U-L-A-U-Skod. So today, like I said, we have the conclusion of our Sanctions' War series, and it's a timely topic, as we're going to be talking about the chapter, Settler colonialism, imperialism, and sanctions from below. Palestine and the BDS movement, and with our excellent guest, Karina Mullen, who is an anti-imperialist scholar based in Brooklyn. So hello, Karina. It's nice to have you on the show. Hi, thank you so much. Hi, Henry, Adnan, and Brett. I'm a huge fan of your show, and it's a real honor for me to join

you all today. It's a pleasure for us as well. So let's get into this conversation before we start talking about the chapter that you wrote and the issue of BDS, which I know is not going to be what the listeners were expecting when they heard sanctions as war, because it is kind of out of step with the other case studies that we've been talking about in this miniseries. Before we even get to the topic of the chapter, I'm wondering if you can let the listeners know a little bit about your background and why you were chosen to write this chapter of the book on BDS. Yeah, thanks for that. So I guess, I guess I was, I was chosen. Well, firstly, I, the two co-editors of the book, Stuart Davis and Manny Ness, are both comrades. I am, I work together with them on the

International Committee of our Union, the Professional Staff Congress, PSC, CUNY. We are all together on the steering committee of the International Committee, which is a pretty left body within the union. We do a lot of anti-imperialist political education work within the union. And we have managed to pass some very good resolutions, including in solidarity with Palestine, with a resolution to end the blockade on Cuba, as well as a no cold war with China resolution. These are recent ones. There are more in the past as well. And I suppose, I suppose part of the thinking behind asking me to do the chapter on BDS is that I was involved with some other committee members in drafting and working together with some other committees within our union, a resolution in solidarity with the people of Palestine in 2021 when there was a very similar. similar context to the one that we're experiencing now, where there was a Zionist bombing and,

you know, a genocidal bombing of Gaza. And similarly, it also resulted in many unions and university organizations and student organizations calling for their institutions. to divest, to take on the call of BDS, to boycott, divest and sanction Israel, and to also stand in solidarity with Palestinian liberation. So our resolution within the PSC that was eventually adopted within our delegate assembly, in the end was a watered down version of what we had initially worked on. But it was still quite strong. So in the end, it doesn't actually call for BDS, but rather calls for as part of the resolved. One of the results, it actually calls on the university or rather our union chapters to initiate discussions on BDS and to eventually

come back and, you know, hopefully vote on a BDS resolution. But this was not a BDS resolution, although we do use that language for the first time in this resolution. And we also managed to include language around settler colonialism rather than just talking about occupation or just talking about the genocide in Gaza, which I think was quite significant. And especially as I've been looking through more recent resolutions in light of the ongoing genocide in Gaza right now. And many of them fall short of this. So, yeah, So it was partially that my work there also with CUNY for Palestine, which is a student and worker organization at CUNY, which also is designed to sort of bring political education to the CUNY community and as well as in addition to calling for BDS to support students in particular who have been really leading the struggle at our. Q&E, but of course across all the universities in the U.S. to take a stronger stance in solidarity with Palestine liberation and to defend students and workers from repression from Zionist institutions within the university. Wonderful. Well, so happy to have you here. And let's go ahead and get into the chapter. And I think Henry alluded to this fact when he opened up this conversation, which is that this is different than the other stuff we've covered in this.

this series on sanctions because usually we're talking about imperial or colonial powers, imposing sanctions on weaker states for various geopolitical imperialist interest. But here you frame it as sanctions from below and this BDS movement as an example of that. Now, I noticed that you opened your article with Lenin's famous quote. There are decades where nothing happens and there are weeks where decades happen. You wrote this, I believe, in 2021, the last time there was a major flare-up of tensions in the region and this this remark by lennon is even more true today as we're sitting here october 20th um you know about two weeks out from the initiation of this most recent conflict so i just wanted to sort of um front load the conversation with that wonderful quote by lennon

because it just continues to ring true um but let's go ahead and get into um your article and i think the best way to start is kind of i mean people will know what the beat what bDS is broadly and we'll get more into those details but the way you start your article is this sort of exploration of the history of boycotts and sanctions as this sort of tactic counterintuitively of resistance from below to things like slavery, capitalism, racism, colonialism, etc. So can you kind of cover some of the history of these kinds of boycotts and sanctions? Yeah, sure. So, you know, I'll just start off by saying, and I, you know, I mentioned this to you in our pre-recorded discussion, but I should say it here too, which is that I'm also a member of the organizing committee of the

International People's Tribunal on U.S. sanctions, in U.S. imperialism, sanctions, blockades, and unilateral economic course of measures. And the way that we understand sanctions, imperialist sanctions, is essentially a form of economic warfare that is designed to drain continue the colonial and of course neo-colonial drain of wealth from the global south towards the global north and to reproduce racialized hierarchy within the international system

and really targeting the gains that were made by global South states following decolonization in the 50s and 60s the delinking import substitution nationalization that allowed for global South states to accumulate capital and keep some of that capital, a larger part of that domestically and to develop economies in a way that had been impossible during the colonial era. So sanctions like structural adjustment programs, like imperialist warfare, like free trade agreements, are another tool.

of Western imperialism to reproduce, to return to the colonial era forms of accumulation and wealth drain. And so, you know, that's the way that I understand sanctions, imperialist sanctions. But are the tribunal, and this also informed my understanding and framing for this chapter, also sees, look at... sanctions from below, in particular BDS, as a form of anti-imperialist sanctions. So in the sense that BDS is designed, or one of its aims, is to achieve national liberation for Palestine. And so, you know, through the call, you know, if you look at the sort of three-demand, of the BDS movement, which was launched in 2005 by 170 Palestinian unions, refugee networks, NGOs, and other organizations.

The three demands include ending the occupation and colonization of all Arab lands, as well as dismantling the wall, recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab of Palestinian citizens of 48 to full equality, respect, protect and promote. the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN Resolution 194. And so that the Palestinian campaign for the academic and cultural boycott of Israel was founded in April 2004 and adopted these demands and then, you know, eventually other organizations and institutions, especially across Europe and the U.S., adopted this call. But if you look at, again, these demands and you really think about the broader picture of Israeli settler colonial rule and Palestine, these demands, if they are implemented, would contribute to full decolonization. But I should also say, since you have raised the current moment and the ongoing genocide that has been occurring in Gaza over the past two weeks, but not limited to those two weeks, right? Because this has been going on. And we can talk about, and the tribunal not only talks about BDS, but we also had a whole hearing on the siege of Gaza because we also need to think about if we're talking about.

talking about sanctions. And Palestine, the siege on Gaza for 16 years as part of the imperialist sanctions regime. And that's, you know, of course, all land, sea and air space has been controlled by the Zionist state of Israel, settler colonial state of Israel. And that has had a devastating. impact on the people and institutions and infrastructure of Gaza. So we need to think about that the siege as well as a form of imperialist sanctions. BDS is part of the attempt to overcome both the siege and more broadly settler colonialism. But as many, and I think I end the article, and you probably don't want me to jump. head so quickly, but I think it's crucial as you brought up the current moment, which really started, although we're thinking about the humanitarian crisis and the thousands of people who have been killed, lives, livelihoods lost, the infrastructure destroyed, really the devastating

images and stories coming out of Palestine right now. But we also have to remember that it started with this incredible act and it's ongoing of resistance and you know who can forget those incredible images that we woke up to Saturdays ago

I believe it was a Saturday of of Palestinians literally breaking through the open air prison that is Casa right the hang gliders that were coming through the people who came in through the sea

the people who came in through bull bulldozers and breaking through that disgusting militarized wall and that act of resistance was beautiful and powerful and it's continuing, it hasn't ended and I think one of the things that and this isn't only in this moment

but this moment in particular has achieved and the Palestinian resistance has achieved is to force us to stop only thinking of Palestinians as victims and only talking about Palestine as a humanitarian crisis and issue. That is there. That is important. And no one is, of course, minimizing that, certainly not myself. But this moment has also helped us to understand that Palestinian resistance is ongoing and it will succeed eventually.

And so the BDS call and the attempts to implement it in various institutions in Europe and in the U.S. And also in, you know, different parts of the Middle East as well as on the African continent, Latin America, there are other places that the BDS call has been adopted. It's part of that. It's the, you know, as I concluded with, it's the floor, not the ceiling. But it's an important part. And it's something that we struggle with, especially as academics in our institutions that are so heavily entangled and imbricated in empire and the institutions of empire that we really need to, you know, we really need to struggle with this within our institutions. And BDS is a good friend. framework for that. Yeah, I'll, I'll, I could say more, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. Just a really quick comment on something you said is like, you know, there's this idea of Palestinians as these victims and, you know, these people who need humanitarian aid. And while that's certainly

true because of Israel's actions, it's also true that there's an ongoing and there always has been since day one, resistance. And it's become very clear in the past two weeks that there are many liberals or self-titled progressives who very much prefer, it seems, to keep the Palestinians as these victims that they can be wholly sympathetic with. But the moment that they wage national liberation struggle, which is of course ugly, which is of course messy and violent, because that's a reaction to the messiness and the violence and the brutality of colonialism, they step away. They want to say, no, no, no, I don't support all this. I would prefer them to stay beleaguered, you know, to stay cowering and to stay victims. And I think that's something that we as people

on the, on the radical liberationist left, need to reject wholeheartedly. So I appreciate you making that distinction. I'm going to piggyback on that comment because it ties in nicely with what I was going to say, which is that many people that are on the left liberal side of the liberal center, the pro-BDS, but not anti-imperialists liberal center, they see BDS. as a means, sorry, as an end in itself insofar as it's a way of them of saying, look, I'm acting in solidarity with Palestine, but without actually grappling with the fact that this is simply a means to an end. And that the end is Palestinian liberation and that we have to take all modes of achieving this liberation.

BDS in itself is, okay, you know, you're doing something. But if that is your end, you're not actually achieving anything for the Palestinian people. The real goal is to achieve liberation for the Palestinian people. And a quote that you have, Karina, that's really nice in this piece is, and I'm quoting you here, as with past anti-colonial struggles, it is for the people who are colonized to determine the means through which they will achieve their liberation. Radical solidarity means that we follow the Palestinian lead. That includes recognizing their right under international law, and this is relevant to today's

situation, as an aside, to resort to armed resistance. Too many people in the West, as Brett is alluding to, almost prefer to have the Palestinians. I mean, they'd never admit to this, but like subconsciously, they prefer the Palestinians to be this oppressed group of people because it allows them to kind of signal their virtue. I don't want to say virtue signal because this term has become very inflammatory these days, but signal their virtue in that, you know, I'm standing in solidarity. I'm doing my small part. But you always have to keep that end in mind and that end is Palestinian liberation.

You're very clear throughout this piece, which is very crucial. And this is why I'm adding it on to what Brett said, that while we are thinking about BDS and how to make BDS more effective, how to counteract attempts by the imperial hegemon of undermining attempts to have BDS as an arrow in our quiver, of course, we have to do these sorts of things. But we cannot become divorced from the reality that this is simply a tool. towards the end of Palestinian liberation. And we have to stand in solidarity with the Palestinians

as they undertake their methods of achieving liberation because BDS alone is not going to achieve that. It is simply to assist in them, achieving that themselves. So I just want to also lay that out there in addition to what Brett was saying. And I don't know if you have any reflections on what each of us had said. Yeah, yeah.

Thank you for that. Brett and Henry. those are really important points. I guess I would just add that, you know, absolutely, the aim is decolonization and anti-colonialism. We have to be careful also how we use decolonization because we know how it's been appropriated by Western academia and completely emptied of all radical content. And when we say decolonization, of course, we're talking about material. decolonization. That means land back. That means an end to colonialism and to the economic and

political systems of domination that it entails. So yeah, that's absolutely crucial and central. And just to say, of course, you know, and I sort of cover some of this history in the piece as well, and there have been others who have written much more extensively about it than myself. But it's true if you go back to, and this is why I wanted to bring in the examples, for example, of Algeria, what's South Africa, of Palestine as well, because the use of the boycott in Palestine doesn't just begin in 2000s. It goes back to the 36th Palestinian revolt. And, you know, there were multiple strategies that were used in that in the in in 1936 to 39 anti-colonial revolution. And I cite, I think, Hassan Khaneffani here. And that included armed resistance. It included

strikes and protests as well as boycot. And that's the same, you know, with Algeria. That was the same with the Mao Mao movement in Kenya. That's the same in South Africa. This idea that that, that Nonviolent forms of resistance are mutually exclusive with armed violence or armed forms of resistance, rather, are, are, is, you know, is a is a is is is is is is is is is is is is is false. It's a false. You know, it's a false. You know, it's a false. You know, it's a false distinction because in history, um, anti-colonial struggles and other struggles of oppressed people have. always used both. These are tactics and they are designed to achieve an end to colonialism and an end to oppression. So I think that's really crucial and we need to keep pushing that point because, as you were saying, Henry, there is a section of the Palestine Solidarity Movement, which also can be, which is liberal, right? And doesn't have an anti-imperial. critique. And that's another crucial thing that we have to keep pushing, that, you know, this is

about also about, it's about settler colonialism and it's also about U.S. imperialism. And, you know, and I, that's why I start the article off with that, because I think it's oftentimes, Palestine solidarity movements in the West and the U.S. in particular don't make that connection, that, you know, this is in, this is in the U.S. interests. have settler colonial violence and dispossession in a Palestine. They needed a outpost, the British initially, and we see that the discussion of the Balfour Declaration. And later, when the U.S. sort of inherits the mantle of, you know, Western imperialism, leading imperialist power in the world system post-World War II. It becomes the major backer of Israel.

And Biden was in the 80s that video where he says, you know, if Israel didn't exist, we'd have to create it. Of course. You know, it's a, the U.S., the Western capitalist imperialist corps require a colonial outpost in the region as of a huge geostrategic importance to access the natural resources of the region to dominate the economies, access markets, important trading route, of course, the Suez Canal. So all of this is, it needs to be front and center in our analysis as well as always reminding people that every national liberation movement and every movement of, you know, oppressed peoples has entailed various forms. of tactics and strategies. And that includes armed resistance as well as, you know,

violent forms of resistance as well as nonviolent resistance. So we need, that's something that we have to keep pushing through. And I, I just want to say that there is, to bring in a little bit of the, to bring the chapter sort of up to date and thinking about when I was preparing for the interview today, just looking at some of the resolutions that have been passed recently, at least, of U.S. unions. And, you know, there haven't been many yet in still, you know, early days. And this is what happened in 2021 is it took a couple of weeks or months. And then we started to see some decent resolutions passed. But what I've been seeing when I have looked through some of the resolutions that have been presented. And, you know,

some of them are very good and important. They're high. highlighting the need for an end, a ceasefire, an end to the genocidal bombing. These are all really crucial and important things that we need to focus on. But they're not connecting the dots to settler colonialism. You know, they're not talking about defending the right, which is protected under international law, the right to armed resistance. And, you know, that to me, those. two features and I'd like to just highlight here which a resolution that came out of an I think should be a model especially for I you know I'm I we can talk about other sectors of labor sectors and their resolutions but I'm as an academic mostly focused on academic unions and in my opinion the Beres 8 university union resolution that came out or a statement rather that came out a couple of

days ago, I think October 12th, and it's entitled, We Are All Palestinians in the face of colonial fascism. And that resolution includes all of this. You know, it makes the connection to settler colonial, to what's going on in Gaza to settler colonialism. It defends the right to armed resistance. It connects the dots to U.S. imperialism. These are the kinds of points that we need to be making in our resolutions and in our organizing full stop within unions here in the belly of the beast and within all the kinds of organizing work we're doing. Because if we don't make these points, my fear is that we're doing more to disorganize, right? There's more political confusion that will ensue rather than clarity. And clarity is what

we need to build our movement against imperialism and against settler colonialism. And of course, to connect the dots between the wars abroad, the imperialist wars, and the wars at home, the wars of white supremacy, the settler colonialism, racist police violence, and decolonization that also needs to happen here. It's interesting. I think contemporary events have in some ways predetermined at least a little bit of this conversation so far that it's been very much around talking about how BDS is only one, you know, arrow in the quiver and that this includes, you know, reaffirming, of course, the right to resist in all these various forms.

But if I think about the history of the BDS itself, of course, the conversation was so different and the context was different because it was right after, it was soon after 9-11, the launching of global war on terrorism, after the launching and start of the Iraq invasion and occupation. And, of course, principally for our purposes, of course, the Al-Aqsa Intifada, the second Intifada, which, you know, was a very serious episode of major resistance, you know,

to Israeli settler colonialism. And in those contexts, you know, I guess my question really would be about how do you situate the birth and origins of the BDS when it was in some ways talked about and seen in that period of time as an alternative to, you know, armed resistance. And it was also because in the kind of post-9-11 context, it was very hard to affirm the right to resistance in this sort of way with the weapons of the week. And so many of the liberals who are, you know, having qualms, you know, now as well and how they support Palestine and show solidarity, we're also at that time period saying, well, look, if you only had a Martin Luther King, you know, for your struggle,

or if you, you know, adopted peaceful, nonviolent resistance, then, you know, we'd all be lining up to support. And I think in some ways, the BDS movement demonstrated the lie to that. Because in fact, although, you know, for some people, it was an easy way if they turned it into just a kind of signal of their virtue and kind of consumer sort of politics at the individual level rather than connected to the cause of Palestinian liberation, you know, there was that kind of element of this at least allowed us to go through the phase of demonstrating

that peaceful forms of nonviolent resistance had been developed and tried just like the Gaza you know March Great March of Return that have

I think played an important role even if they didn't themselves actually end up putting the kind of pressure that led to very material, you know, adjustments of the Zionist, you know, project or peace negotiations or something. But it did, you know, it did lead to kind of rending the veil, you know, for so many people that more radical action and more radical forms of solidarity would be, you know, needed. So I'm wondering how you situate like this relationship between

these things. We're trying to affirm now that armed resistance is one of the many modes of legitimate resistance, but it seems like it was important in that period of time to actually affirm that we should try and why and for what reasons we should try other forms of solidarity and organization. So I'm wondering, how do you kind of reflect on those origins? And maybe that'll lead us also to kind of question or think about what were the strengths of the movement of BDS, what did it achieve and what were the limitations if it was pursued as it was for a period of time is almost the only, you know, active form of resistance, particularly for those in solidarity outside of Palestine itself. Yeah. Wow. Those are excellent questions.

And I also really appreciate how you sort of have asked me to locate and how you have framed BDS in terms of this broader history of U.S. imperialism and how it has manifested in the context of U.S. organizing the U.S. and North America, Western Europe, more broadly, in terms of of creating this context of, well, criminalizing, you know, all kinds of forms of dissent and really making people wary and feel guilty about taking positions openly in solidarity with resistance that, you know, with any form of armed resistance, right? And I know Sohail Dalatzai, for example, has written on this in relation to, you know, sort of compare where people stood at the time of the Algerian revolution, you know, sort of 1954 to 1962. And going back to that historical moment. And, you know, and also Vietnam War, where people were openly supporting armed resistance. And, you know, and that was, you know, not to say that people weren't criminalized, and there was a form of, you know, of course, McCarthyism attacking people, college students and academics and workers and anyone else who took these kinds of positions. And, you know, that was followed by co-intel pro and, you know, the- Yeah, but what's amazing is that all those kinds of modes of repression and counterfeit.

reaction that you're talking about happened also for BDS, which was, you know, meant to be the peaceful alternative and, you know, more legitimate for like a liberal kind of audience. And yet it also suffered, you know, a great deal of repression, which I think we, you know, we'll want to talk about as well. Yeah, no. And I think that is, you know, that's precisely it, is that it doesn't matter how you dissent, right? And who you're voicing your solidarity with because at the end of the day, if you were doing anything that is effective in terms of challenging U.S. imperialism or Zionist settler colonialism, you will be targeted. So, you know, I think that is the lesson. And as you said, you know, going back to, you know, this question of where, you know, it's such a loaded

question to begin with. And, you know, and a racist one in many ways, you know, where is the Palestinian Gandhi, you know, where is the Palestinian Nelson Mandela? Firstly, Nelson Mandela himself was called a terrorist, you know, by Western powers too. And so has every resistance and anti-colonial movement. So, you know, that, but, you know, where are they? Where are the Gondis? Where the Martin Luther Kings and Nelson Medals, they're in prison. They've been tortured and they've been killed. You know, that's the reality. And, you know, look what happened with the great march of return. People were mowed down. You know, this is what happens when Palestinians protest peacefully, when they engage in BDS. It doesn't matter. They're criminalized. They are

targeted. They are killed, incarcerated, etc. So, you know, I think that is a lesson that many people have taken away from these experiences. In terms of the U.S., you're absolutely right, you know, the BDS movement. So, so yeah, going back to thinking about post-9-11 and the moment, you know, the periodized, how you periodized the periodization of, of the Palestine Solidarity Movement in the U.S. and contextualizing it within the war on terror. I think it's really important to think about that moment and how you're absolutely right. People were looking for ways that they could express solidarity with Palestine that wouldn't get them, you know, thrown in jail, that wouldn't get I wouldn't result in them losing their jobs.

And, you know, now there are differences there between those two fears as well because, you know, under capitalism, of course, we all have to sell our labor and we need to work in order to survive. So I'm not minimizing the fear of losing one's job. But I think there is a difference between the fear of being incarcerated and the fear of losing one's job. and in large part the people who have been targeted by the carceral state have been people of color and especially Muslim, Arab and Palestinians. And that is what makes it even more important for everyone else in the movement to be taking bolder stands, even those that may result in risking employment. But, you know, and it has, and we've seen that.

We've seen that with, you know, really from the beginning, BDS has been targeted, been criminalized. Over 35 states have some form of legislation or executive order, basically banning, making it illegal to engage in BDS. Working at a public institution, it's very difficult because there's the constant threat of losing state funding. And that's real. And these are, you know, institutions that are already heard. because of racist austerity. And, you know, an institution like CUNY is a majority working class people of color institution. And the last thing we want is less funding for it.

But on the other hand, you know, we also can't allow ourselves to be blackmailed in this way. You know, and we have to fight back and really fight. And this is where I think BDS is connected to decolonizing universities. And I sort of mentioned earlier, I think it was in the pre-recording discussion, or I can't remember was recorded about decolonization and how it's sort of been in many ways, at least how it's expressed in the academy. It's been emptied of all of its radical content and appropriated and, you know, really watered down by our institutions. But that being said, there is a need to de-link our institutions from the institutions of organized violence, from the institutions of empire. And the fact that these are really, they really are colonial institutions. They have colonial origins.

They're involved themselves in landgrads of taking actually indigenous territories of, you know, the, ethnic cleansing involved with gentrification, you know, their financialization of the capitalist economy, all of these things. And we need to, the BDS in a way, sort of crystallizes all of these movements and helps us to think about our institutions as spaces that are entangled in these broader systems and structures of oppression and exploitation and dispossession. And in that sense, it has also been a very crucial movement from the perspective of liberation here in the belly of the beast, even though it hasn't always, and even though I don't think it's as central, let's say, to liberating Palestine, it's important. It's an important

struggle. And it's not one that I would say we should give up on because it's important for liberation, for connecting liberation struggles here in the belly of the beast and in Palestine and other parts of the world that are impacted by U.S. imperialism. Very quick comment before Brett Hobson. And it's kind of tangential. It is related to something that you said, but it wasn't like the main thrust of that answer. So I'm going to try to get us too far afield here which one of the things that you mentioned is that if you look at actions that are in solidarity with Palestine we often see incarceration that's taking place at these events but often amongst the the communities of color in particular and particularly

the Muslim community just anecdotally when I was doing my undergrad at an area that has a very large Muslim population. I was in several organizations that were always, I mean, it was like the primary focus of those organizations was to operate in solidarity with Palestine. And I was one of the few white people in these organizations. But when we would have actions, we would often have a lot of white people who would come out in solidarity until the police showed up. And then it was just the other people that were from the Middle Eastern diaspora primary.

who were still present. And when we had these actions, you would see people get arrested at every single one of the actions. It was never me. You know, it was never me. It was the people that I was standing next to that were from the Middle East or, you know, diaspora members from the Middle East, especially women that were wearing hijabs.

Many of my friends who were hijab wearing women were the ones that were arrested. They would literally be standing next to me and would be arrested at the same action. and I wouldn't be or another anecdotal example and this is something that also just came up from one of I know Brett, a mutual friend of our Sopo, our Georgian friend, when I lived in Germany, I lived in Germany for three years after I finished my undergrad and there was protests that would take place there that I was often at some that were in solidarity with Palestine, some that were in solidarity with Cuba, other things like this. But what again you would see is that that when the protests would start, you would often have a rather ecumenical group of people,

a relatively diverse group of people. But as soon as the police started showing up, the Germans, you know, the German Germans, they would leave right away. And then it was just the immigrant community would remain. And that was when the arrests would take place. That is when their repression would take place. That is when, you know, the water guns would come out. You know, these are at events that I was at. And so just anecdotally, you know, it's important that we understand that this repression does take place and that people are going to be afraid of it. But who is always willing to stand up in the face of this is the people that understand that what is going on in these places like Palestine, like Cuba, the reality for people there is significantly more dangerous, significantly more deadly,

significantly more oppressive than what we are facing in our relatively cushy, you know, North. I know I'm in Russia, which, you know, some people would say, it's not the global north, but in any case, in our relatively cushy positions, and especially as, you know, except for Adnan's case, the rest of us are white. So we come from a position of privilege. We have to understand that we, if we want to truly act in solidarity with these people, we have to keep in mind that what they face is significantly more traumatic, significantly more oppressive and significantly more dangerous than what we ever will. And so we have to be willing to take some risks. And we actually, you know, we benefit from our position of privilege, even in

these same actions as the other people. But we have to be willing to take these risks. I mean, if you're not, you're not truly acting in solidarity with these people. That's just my thoughts. You know, I don't want to push that idea on to what you're saying, Korean, but it came up. Yeah. No. I mean, I just like to say, I mean, I agree with you 100%. And, And, you know, I really think that it's the least we can do. That's why I'm saying, you know, I'm so disappointed by academic unions especially and organizations when they put out these milktoe statements to sidism and fearful of taking a position in support of resistance, of Palestinian resistance. and, you know, essentially just parroting sort of, you know, liberal human rights organizations in terms of their statements. I feel really, you know, I just think that that's, that's horrible, right?

It's, it's, these are, you know, academics who are relatively privileged and especially white academics, they have no excuse. You know, there's no excuse. Like I said, you know, losing a job is not the same thing of ending. up in prison or ending up torture or ending up assassinated. And you know, this is the kind of petty bourgeois preoccupation that just, you know,

has really, in my opinion, has not all the place in left organizing. And, you know, it's really thinking about everything that Palestinians are risking right now, what they are facing, and what they're up against. And this is the least that we can do is to

try to normalize and naturalize in, you know, and challenge the propaganda here that criminalizes every form of Palestinian resistance. But we need to normalize, defending armed resistance. We need to because that is, offers at least some form of protection that, and that's from our, as you said, relatively privileged, positions in the belly of the beast and especially people who, you know, especially for white and middle class, let's say, workers and people who are involved in this kind of organizing. It's the very least that they can do, to be honest. And I also just want to say, and you know, at CUNY, we've seen, and this is across the board, we're seeing it across the board

it right now is there has been a real attack, especially on students. And again, especially, and we saw this in 2021 as well. This is not new. But I think that it is ramping up. And that is because the establishment saw, was threatened by the discursive challenges that emerged. And really, you know, following the the breakout, you know, the Alexa flood, the beginning of the Alaksa flood mission, there really was a dramatic transformation in the discourse and how people were talking about Palestine and that shift away from only speaking of Palestinians as victims to also supporting struggle. And the establishment felt it, right? The bourgeois capitalist press, politicians, the Zionist lobbies that, of course, they're linked

into, they went into, you know, high gear to try to reverse and to reverse those gains, right? And so there was a, the backlash was real. It was, you know, there have been, people have lost their jobs. Students are getting put on the Canary Mission list and other similar, you know, Zionist lists that are designed, you know, is kind of witch hunts and to demonize anyone who's being involved. in organizing in solidarity with Palestine. There have been some very high profile attacks at NYU, Columbia, Harvard in particular, but at CUNY, again, working class university, predominantly students of color. There have also been some serious repression, students being a protest being kicked off campus so that they are under the purview of the NYP.

And we know how violent and racist the NYPD are, the administration putting out awful statements basically echoing our mayor, the mayor Eric Adams and governor Hockels, basically equating anyone who is protesting in solidarity with Palestine, with terrorists, with extreme, you know, using language of extremists. And of course, that results in violence. You know, as we saw with the young. boy who was six years old, where was that in Chicago, sorry, in Illinois, right in Chicago, who was killed and that's not a surprise because this racist, orientalist discourse is going to result and it's designed to result precisely in this kind of violence. So we're seeing this again. And it's the students who are the ones who are taking these positions. When you look at the statements that are coming out of student unions, of student organizations, they are all radical. They are all standing with the Palestinian National Liberation struggle. They are talking about BDS, but they're going way beyond that. And that's why they're getting targeted. And so to have faculty

then come out with anything less than that, to come out and, you know, with a sort of liberal, lukewarm, two-sidism kind of statement, actually really undermines and harms their students at a time when they shouldn't be taking a stand and really taking on the administration and demanding that the administrations of these universities protect their students and workers, but especially the students and especially people of color, especially Muslim, Arab and Palestinian students and workers. Yeah, absolutely, without a doubt. And of course, that six-year-old boy's name was Wodea. You know, just a terrible tragedy. Yeah, we just can't forget his name, and we can't forget how the global dimensions of this conflict. It doesn't stay confined. And we also, I would also say that there's a lot of insecurity on the Zionist side right now because they see public opinion turning, even in places like the U.S., to degrees they have not ever seen. And this overreach, this calling everybody anti-S., it is a product of their insecurity. Today I saw, I mean, this is kind of a clown show, but Megan McCain, right?

There was these congressional staffers who put out an anonymous letter basically saying that we want to ceasefire. We're not comfortable with just like making it rain on Israel so they can commit a genocide. It was a very, very milkedose, liberal, just ceasefire type rhetoric. And McCain immediately comes out like, this is anti-Jewish hatred, you know, just like overextended. Nobody with a brain believes this anymore. And it's really, really starting to lose all the power it once had, this power to browbeat, especially liberals, into ideological submission by, you know, the language of social justice and identity politics. You're being anti-Semitic. Shut up. And it's worked for a long time when a lot of people. But the more of us speak up, the more of us that refuse to be browbeaten, the more of us that make clear distinctions between Zionism and anti-Semitism and actually say, tying Jewish people to the crimes of the Israeli state and trying to make those two things synonymous is actually. anti-Semitic. That's where the anti-Semitism comes from. Not to mention the insane anti-Semitism of Christian Zionism here in the U.S. All of these Republican Christian nationalists who support

Israel ostensibly is because they have these religious fanatical ideas about the end times and the Jewish people will be sent to hell for eternity. This is deeply anti-Semitic stuff that needs to be combated and we're not going to be browbeaten by these accusations. We'll fight back against them. I also wanted to say earlier, you were mentioning this liberal idea of Like, if only they could put forth a Gandhi or an MLK Jr. Maybe they would have more respect. I heard Jocko Willink, this military Marine guys podcast today, saying that exact same thing. And just as you said, Karina, there have been MLKs and Gondis.

They've been killed. They've been tortured. They've been in prison. And Israel would not hesitate to do that again. And so that's another reason why we need to stress this full spectrum acceptance of any and all tactics for liberation. And of course, you know, just as liberals used to call Nelson Mandela a terrorist until they got their freedom and now every liberal wants to have the Mandela poster in their bedroom and be like, you know, I support this. That's going to happen with Palestine too. Mark my words, whether it's in five years and 50 years, that is going to happen. Liberals right now calling for genocide, right now supporting Biden, will want to pretend when Israel inevitably falls that they were on the side of humanity the entire time. And we can't let them forget that they were not. But my question here is about South Africa. You cover this in your article, you know, not super extensively, but you mentioned it. And I think why it's important at this moment is because South Africa in particular is being brought up is like,

you know, this is a parallel. This is, just as I was saying with Nelson Mandela, right? There's a historical parallel here. This is apartheid. It will fall one day, et cetera, et cetera. And I think it's a useful thing to bring up in these conversations. But I was just wondering if you can kind of talk, and you can take this question in any direction you want about the relationship historically between the Palestinian Liberation Movement and specifically the African National Congress, Nelson Mandela, et cetera, and kind of tie those two struggles together

and the very real history that exists between them. Yeah, yeah, thanks for that. Yeah, it's, of course, a very important and strong historical ties between the Palestinian liberation struggle and the South African liberation struggle. And I believe in the chapter, I discussed that the ANC has also, you know, praised the Palestinian people for having stood in solidarity with their struggle against apartheid and against Israel's ties with South Africa. And also, we should say as well that Israel has a history of intervening elsewhere on the African continent as well, supporting all kinds of repressive governments and providing weapons and, you know, extracting the wealth, resources and labor of the continent.

And all African liberation struggles and movements across the continent have recognized. that and that's what they've stood in the solidarity with with Palestine and you know I think archbishop Desmond Tutu after visiting Palestine even said that the conditions um in uh Palestine in some ways were even worse than apartheid South Africa um but you know certainly um there there are a lot of similarities between them and you know and I think that's one of the reasons why the BDS movement has had so much support across South Africa and, you know, that those ties are very strong. And I'm glad that you also raised, again, that Nelson Mandela himself was seen as a terrorist. And I think that's really important to remind people up because,

you know, all of the leaders of liberation struggles have at one point in time, if they were opposed by the U.S. have been characterized as being terrorists. And something else I would just like to add here, because you did mention the use of anti-Semitism and that being part of the criminalization of Palestine solidarity organizing. And I think it's important to think about how the justifications for repressing, Palestine solidarity and any anti-colonial liberation struggle. Of course, change over time, the discourses that are used, the frameworks that are used. You know, during, in the context of the war and terror, of course, terrorism and accusations of terrorism were really crucial.

And but, you know, that's not, that's not new either, because if we go back to the anti-colonial struggles of the 50s and 60s, the terrorist term was also used at that time. And, but, you know, But anti-Semitism is a particular one that sort of keeps, you know, keeps emerging and has a long lasting life in terms of repression of Palestine solidarity organizing. And I just, you know, as you were speaking, I was just thinking there was also, there was an event that there's an event being organized next week at my university that links. anti-Semitism to, to come, the title was something like the roots of anti-Semitism in the Soviet Union, you know, which was like so outrageous and absurd considering, you know, what was it, 27 million Soviet troops died fighting the fascists. And, you know, but also it's, it's really interesting and important to think how that discourse and narrative gets mobilized

because, and I've, you know, I've told, I just did a Palestine 101 event at my John Jay, and I was telling the students, you know, that there is this long history of you were talking about Christian, Christian Zionism. And, you know, there's a long history of anti-communism, of course, within Christian Zionism as well, in addition to the kind of millennial, you know, the, you know, the, the, the, the, you know, the, the, you know, the, the, well, or, the, the, or, the, the, what do we, what is the term for it? Melanarium. Milanarium. Right. Exactly. Exactly. In addition to that tendency, of course, the Christian Zionist in Europe in the 30s and 40s were very concerned with the growing level of support amongst working class Jewish people in particular for communism, for the support for of course the Russian Revolution and support for communist revolutions elsewhere in Western Europe. So in many ways establishing Israel as a settler colonial state would kill two birds, so to say, with one stone.

It would address the so-called Jewish question and get rid of the internal enemy for Europe, the Jewish population. and, you know, actually it would be three, let's say, killing three birds with one stone. There was that aim. Secondly, it would deal with the rising levels of support for communism and demands for and movements for a communist revolution in Western Europe. And then, of course, thirdly, creating this imperialist colonial outpost in the Middle East and this, you know, a place of extreme geopolitical and economic importance for the West. So I think that's really crucial and important to point out as well because a lot of people don't know that history. And I think especially for people on, you know, on the left and who are familiar with McCarthyism and the kinds of repression of the communist movement here in this country, it's important to make these parallels. And, you know, just as people like Cherise Byrne and Steli have highlighted the anti-Black.

in the McCarthyism and the anti-communist repression that happened in this country. There is an element also of anti-Jewish, especially as it manifested in Europe, an anti-Jewish or anti-Semitic dimension to anti-communism as well. And it's important that we recall that history. Just to plug a couple of things before Adnan asks the final question for this interview. and really there's a lot more that we could talk about and that we'd love to talk about, but we don't have that much time. So just a couple of plugs then before this concluding question. So you were talking about how there are parallels between the apartheid system within South Africa

and the system that the so-called state of Israel exerts in occupied Palestine. Of course, we've talked about this before, and I know Brett and I are currently working on putting together an episode. It'll probably be a guerrilla history slash Rev Left cross-release on that exact topic. So listeners, stay tuned for that. We're hoping to have that ready in the semi-near future. You also talked about how Dr. CBS looks at this anti-blackness, anti-communism. She will also be on the program very soon. We just have to, you know, confirm a date with her, but she's already said that she's happy to come on to talk about her new book.

And then the third thing that I want to plug, since you were talking about how there's this conflation between communism and anti-Semitism, this is to plug the book that I co-translated, which I feel like I do far too often, but from, I'm looking in the hardcover edition, from page 201 to 238 of Stalin history and critique of a black legend, that is the entire focus of that 37 pages and how that narrative was kind of constructed back in that era. We see the same kind of thing happening today, which I think speaks a little bit to what you were talking about, Karina. And I know that your union is looking at the book right now. So when you get to that section, there's something for you to think about. And listeners, if you want to check that out. Like I said, the PDF is available for free. Okay, Adnan, feel free to hop in. Sure.

Well, we've been talking, you know, a lot about forms of resistance. and so on. And, of course, I just want to look a little bit forward and get your sense for our listeners, what's the future of the BDS movement going forward? And you did conclude this wonderful chapter with, I thought, a wonderful paragraph about Palestine action and talking about how BDS really needs to be seen as the floor,

not the ceiling of global Palestine solidarity. So I'm wondering, do you think and expect and want to encourage ways in which people can join the BDS movement in their unions and their workplaces and so on? So what's the best way to do that? but also what do you see going forward as ways in which the global solidarity struggle can be ratcheted up as, you know, we're in an emergency situation here at time of recording. So we need to use whatever are going to be the best techniques to put pressure on the U.S. Empire to constrain Israel and to support the Palestinians. You know, what do you think going forward you'd like to see and encourage people, you know, within the framework of BDS and beyond? Yeah, thanks for that.

I think, you know, I, of course, do hope that people continue to organize BDS as a demand within their institutions. I think it's very important that we continue to pressure our institutions to divest from all forms of economic connection with Israel and its institutions and businesses. Now, that being said, I think that it's important as well to link BDS and always link it back to the broader demands that it's initially was articulated with. always have in mind when they talk about BDS, which is decolonization and international liberation from the river to the sea, right? And that is crucial. And we we owe it to the Palestinian people, in particular people here in the belly of the beast and in the UK as well, of course, given

Britain's historical role in establishing the settler colonial state of Israel. And this country, given fact that the government, our tax dollars are going to, what, 3.8 billion, if not more a year, to supporting settler colonialism and apartheid. That's the least that we can do. And, you know, and I guess, you know, and I would also say that it is connected to our struggles here for liberation too, against settler colonialism and North America. America against the legacies of enslavement and racial capitalism and, you know, as it manifests here and against the institutions of organized violence, the police, racist police and carceral state. And I'm reminded of the words of

when I think about the current moment, you know, where he said at the end of capitalism, which is eager to outlive its day, there is Hitler. At the end of formal humanism and philosophical renunciation, there is Hitler. At the end of settler colonialism, I would add, there's Hitler. And these are scary moments for that reason, right? We know that U.S. empire is in decline. We have now, the world has seen that Israeli settler colonialism is vulnerable. there is a real potential within our lifetime, as the organization out of New York within our lifetime puts it, within our lifetime, there is the potential. And, you know, very soon, perhaps even

sooner, that we will see national liberation for the Palestinian people. And these are exciting moments with the rise of a multipolar world order with the decline of U.S. empire. with the transformations that are taking place or a polycentric world order, as the Cubans put it. And I think that, and Samir Amin, the amazing Samir Amin, but again, I think these are exciting moments

and they are terrifying moments. And we're seeing, again, that Palestine is this sort of flashpoint. It's a, you know, it really is sort of crystallizing all of these issues. It's bringing them to head. And look at the repression. in the UK, in France, in Germany, here of Palestine organizing.

It's revealing the fascism of our capitalist settler colonial states. And so it's crucial that we continue to organize and continue to take principled positions on Palestine. This is because Palestinian liberation is indeed connected to our liberation here in the belly of the beast. And oppressed people, oppressed peoples have always known that. And that's why, you know, there's always been solidarity, as we say, going back to South Africa or the Black Panther Party here in the U.S., Puerto Rican liberation struggle, Algeria, you know, Cuba, Venezuela, Angola, you know, Vietnam. There's always been connections between oppressed people's liberation struggles because everyone understands that,

at the root of them is the same systems and structures of oppression and violence and accumulation, capitalist, imperialism, settler colonialism. And so we need to fight here in the belly of the beast and deal with our part to bring these systems down, just as the Palestinian people are fighting on their part and doing what they can from their end. And it's the very least that we can do to continue to organize and mobilize here for BDS, in solidarity with Palestinian liberation, and against U.S. imperialism and settler colonialism here. Yeah, excellent. And Adnan, since you mentioned that Karina had called up Palestine action and the end of the chapter, I'm just going to remind the listeners as well that we have an interview on our spin-off sister show as well as we, we cry. released it on our feed as well. So our spinoff show, Gorilla Radio, and it's also on

the guerrilla history feed with the founders of Palestine Action. And also, this is going to be a little bit dated when this episode comes out. We're recording on October 20th. Within the last 24 hours, a branch of Palestine Action U.S. was just founded. And I'm comrades with one of the founding members of Palestine Action U.S. Perhaps we'll be able to get him on the show sometime soon to talk about, you know, how, how that process went in terms of starting it up and in their initial action of shutting down the Elbit facility in Boston, which was a great action that they took and really fascinating. And I'm happy that I saw that you called that organization up in your chapter, Karina. And I hope the listeners will go back and listen to that interview with

the founders of Palestine Action UK and look forward to a potential interview with one of the founding members of Palestine Action U.S. So on that note then, Karina, can you tell the listeners how they can find you keep up to date with the work that you're doing and anything else that you would like to direct them to? Yeah, and well, actually, because you brought up Pal Action, I just like to say, I think that's amazing that they're setting up a branch here. We all need to support that. Direct action is very crucial and important to our organizing work.

And they have really led the way and it's so impressive the work that they've been doing in the UK. And I really hope that we can build the momentum here. And they target the Elbit systems, which is one of the largest Israeli weapons systems, if not the largest. I think it's the largest contractor for the Israeli military. Exactly. Exactly. And we need to target them here too because they have offices, across the U.S. as well. And that is a really crucial dimension of this, as well as highlighting the role of the U.S. military industrial complex and its various institutions in supporting,

in supporting a settler colonial violence and settler colonial rule in Palestine. In terms of following me, I mean, I would prefer that listeners follow the organizations that I'm a part of. at CUNY for Palestine. You should look us up. Follow us on social media, on Twitter, on Instagram. We also have a Facebook page. Also, the International People's Tribunal on U.S. imperialism. We just concluded six months of hearings, very powerful hearings.

I hope that you will all go to our website and have a listen. Watch the various hearings. We covered 16. countries that have been impacted by U.S. imperialist sanctions. And this is just the beginning, the hearings and the verdict has now been issued. But our next stage is, in addition to litigation, is going to be political education and organizing against sanctions in U.S. imperialism. And, you know, as I said, I definitely support a palaction. There are so many other amazing organizations, Palestinian organizations that you should all be following,

Palestinian youth movement, PYM, Al-Aouda, within our lifetime. Make sure that my main advice would be whatever formation you're a part of, you should always take your lead from Palestinian grassroots organizations here in the U.S. That is key, not NGOs, but Palestinian-led grassroots organizations. and if you take your lead from them, then, then you'll be on the right path. So, yeah, thanks so much. Thanks for having me. And thanks for coming on the program.

Adnan, how can the listeners find you and your other excellent podcast? Well, I just want to thank Karina for coming on a terrific episode on a wonderful piece. I hope everybody goes, reads it and takes her advice to follow those organizations and get in fall. You can follow me on Twitter at Adnan, A-Husain, H-U-S-A-I-N, and check out the M-A-J-L-I-S. It's a podcast on Middle East, Islam of World, Muslim diasporic culture. Excellent. Of course, I highly recommend the listeners do that. Brett, how can the listeners find you and your two other podcasts? There's a third one, but we're not going to talk about that one.

Absolutely. Well, first of all, yeah, to thank you again, Karina. all your amazing work, this wonderful article, and just your voice is so passionate and so inspiring, so articulate. Really, really, really appreciate it. Yeah, wonderful discussion. Thank you so much. As for me, you can find everything I do at Revolutionary LeftRadio.com. And of course, the listeners should absolutely be doing that. As for me, listeners, you can find me on Twitter at Huck, 1995, H-U-C-1-995. You can pick up the Stalin history and critique of a Black Legend book, paperback, hardcover, or freely available PDF at IskraBooks.org. As for the show, you can help support the show, allow us to keep continue making episodes

like this by going to patreon.com forward slash gorilla history, gorilla being spelled, G-U-E-R-R-I-L-A history. And you can keep up to date with everything that the three of us are doing individually, as well as the show collectively, by going to Twitter and looking for at Gorilla underscore Pod. again, G-U-E-R-R-I-L-A- underscore pod. And until next time, listeners, Solidarity. Thank you.