Guerrilla History - Palestine - War, Occupation, and Proletarianization w/ Ali Kadri

Episode Date: December 1, 2023

In this critical episode of Guerrilla History, we bring the esteemed and critically important Ali Kadri onto the show to discuss Palestine.  This episode is largely based off of Ali's terrific book A Theory of Forced Labour Migration: The Proletarianisation of the West Bank Under Occupation (1967-1992).  In this conversation, we discuss themes including war as a method of capital accumulation, indigenous labour extirpation, and much, much more.  We want to thank friend of the show Max Ajl for helping connect us with Ali, whose work has been something we have wanted to discuss for quite some time.  We also hope to bring Ali back on soon to discuss more of his work, on a variety of topics he studies. Ali Kadri is an esteemed Professor at various institutions around the world, as well as the author of many important books including Arab Development Denied: Dynamics of Accumulation by Wars of Encroachment, The Accumulation of Waste: A Political Economy of Systemic Destruction, and The Unmaking of Arab Socialism.   Help support the show by signing up to our patreon, where you also will get bonus content: https://www.patreon.com/guerrillahistory

You remember den, Ben, boo? The same thing happened in Algeria, in Africa. They didn't have anything but a rank. The French had all these highly mechanized instruments of warfare. But they put some guerrilla action on. Hello and welcome to guerrilla history, podcast that acts as a reconnaissance report of global proletarian history and aims to use the lessons of history to analyze the present. I'm one of your co-hosts, Henry Hukimaki,

unfortunately not joined by either one of my usual co-hosts, Professor Adnan Hussein, historian director of the School of Religion at Queen's University in Ontario, Canada, or Brett O'Shea, who of course is host of Revolutionary Left Radio, although we do hope that Adnan will be able to come into the conversation at some point today, but that is as a as of yet to be seen. I have an excellent guest to talk with us today about a very pressing topic from a little bit more theoretical base than perhaps we have been talking with relation to current events in Gaza.

But before I introduce him, I want to remind the listeners that you can help support the show by going to patreon.com forward slash gorilla history with gorilla being spelled G-U-E-R-R-I-L-L-A history. And you can keep up to date with the program, all that we're releasing collectively as well as what the three hosts are putting out individually by going to Twitter and looking at Gorilla underscore Pod again, G-U-E-R-R-I-L-L-A-U-Score Pod. So as I mentioned, we have an absolutely fantastic guest today. We have Ali Kadri, who is a professor and author of several very important books, the newest being the accumulation of waste, the political, economy of systemic destruction and the cordon sanitaire, although today we're going to be talking about a theory of forced labor migration, the proletarianization of the West Bank

under occupation from 1967 to 1992, primarily, although we'll probably branch off of that a little bit. And I'm really looking forward to the conversation, and I want to make sure that we thank our friend and comrade, Max Isle, for connecting us to Professor Cadre, as we've been wanting to actually talk with him for quite some time and now we have the opportunity to do so. So, Professor, it's nice to have you on the show. I'm going to open the conversation today by talking about something that you mentioned in chapter two of your book on the proletarianization of the West Bank, which is that, and I'm going to quote you here, there is a primacy of politics that holds sway over the course of the region as

a whole and particularly in relation to Palestine. I think that when we think about the in this region that politics often is cast aside and, you know, kind of sidelined in terms of thinking about some other, you know, discourses, at least in mainstream analysis. So if you can, open up this conversation by talking about the primacy of politics within this region and how that manifests itself. Right. I mean, this is a point. If you hear the causes, for instance, because of the assault on Gaza you would see that there are people who are saying there is

gas to be found on the shores of Gaza and the report is for the gas and there's always this sort of reification, the sort of you must deduks at historical cost to a thing in order than to explain what is happening and that again is

a sort of naive estimological approach to knowing things you know, because, you know, it's not always what you see is what you get. The story is not so simple sometimes. Not that there isn't a need for the imperialist power to search for gas and oil and destroy things,

but actually the reason of the war is in the social connection that is spun around the country, control of natural resources and specifically human resources because you need to extract human lives first before we extract

any mineral or anything else because there are usually people who are living over areas which have oil underneath them or whatever other metal of sorts so what I mean by primacy

of politics because it is the human being who is the subject of extraction. And the human being is a social being who is a social relationship. That is the extent through his social relations, through the nationality, through the Alchuk, through other people, by his very existence as a human being. It's not only because there is oil underneath a place that the United States is going to attack, in place. It will do so sometimes simple to subdue

the population so that it gains control and it enhances its hegemony over the reason. So if you think about Syria in when the French colonized

the Syria in the early 20th century they were asked someone asked the general who was leading the the the assault

on Damascus well there is nothing in Syria it's almost semi-arid land with so twice France bringing so much material and

the resources to attack such a country and the general says that once we have a footwold Syria, we have a foothold over the region as well because of the relationship of Syria to the rest of the region and the relationship of the Syrian masses to the rest of the masses of the region and need to the primacy of politics means that you need to suppress people and suppress people's consciousness first and and then once you establish a

a platform of power, you can reach anywhere because of that form of power and expropriate any population. We think of the dollar as the universal currency. It is a universal currency because the United States has a universal cloud. It has military bases around the world, and it has a whole set of ideological operatives and NGOs and soldiers, American soldiers, and NATO soldiers who migrate to the south. So the immigration from the south to the north begins with the north and wage workers,

the military wage soldiers and the NGOs and other things who migrate to the south, to destabilize the south to make sure that they get the resources and the people cheap on the chain you must handle the relationship between resources people want. I must highlight the point that the

important thing is to get to subjugate people to disopower the working class and the masses such that you can get their resources and you can get their utility. And so the fact capital as a social relationship and it is a historical relationship of private appropriation of

socially produced worth with a stock of institutions and other social forms of organization that organized its trajectory. Capital One capitalist on its own would be that charting the course of history would be detrimental to history because you would want to basically pay negative wages in order to make profits and such everything dies logically but tactically capital has institutions that organize its activity across time and these institutions they're the organized dimension and they know better that we you know it's it is okay to sacrifice and one now in order to get power to make a lot of money later.

And that's what the primacy of politics exactly means. And in such a strategic region as the Arab world, around the region is so much oil. And oil is a strategic commodity, which is responsible for the reproduction of the human race from one billion people to a billion people because it's a cheap source of source of energy over the 20th century.

That sort of commodity without which is an expert doesn't take an expert to know if we retrieve oil out of a world. Then there's nothing to, we can't grow anything and we can't eat it. It could be the ultimate disaster. There will be an immense reduction of the population. So it's quite a specific common because it is the basis for the growth. demographic growth since the 19th, since 20th century.

And so control over a region such as a strategic commodity is leverage and control over much of the world resources. Also, that sort of control is

serves many purposes. I mean, I will delineate two issues. One is that control involves a

war, a continuous war and war that is going to grow exponentially that is you know you need war all the time because the rate of growth is exponential so the level the level of output must be exponential and you've got to

use people and resources, people in nature to make things. So you will be using things exponentially. You would be consuming things. There's a metabolic rate at which growth takes space, which consumes more people and nature at time. And what you would have is war itself becomes a domain of a key connection. So it's like all you know, you have, you have, you have an industry of war and water of fact, you know, it's probably discounted in the mainstream

as an externality, as a statistical aberration of sort. But it's, it is not so. It's pretty much what occurs all the time. And water is an industry with ways. And the other thing, of course, is the hegemony over the oil, control over oil, control of the state oil, which actually underwrites the dollar of the global currency as well. So you have these two things by together, yes. Just to insert myself briefly, you know, when people think about war, they generally, and I'm talking in the mainstream, they think of it in one of two ways, one of which is that it's pure waste and it's something that's a burden on the economy and a burden on society,

both in terms of human waste and in terms of material and economic waste. This is one way of conceptualizing war that's often done. in the mainstream. And then if we even look a little bit more onto the liberal side of, again, the mainstream, sometimes people will be willing to go as far as say, well, okay, war is a material waste and it is a human waste, but we also see that it generates profit for weapons companies. And so, you know, they can at least see that there's some sort of incentive there for these industries and politicians who are paid by these industries. But that is about the extent to which their analysis goes in terms of the way that war is a basis for accumulation, is a basis for, you know,

capital generation. And I think that your analysis that you do not only in the book that we're focusing on today, but in other works that you have done, is goes much deeper into the way that war is critical for, you know, propping up the imperial capital system, capitalist system in more ways than are looked at by the mainstream. So if you can just dive down a little bit deeper into the ways in which imperialist war is not only war for the sake of control, but also it has these profound effects on capital itself. Well, I mean, war was when we relate, you know, when we want to periodize history, you know, with the systems and it's who say that it started in the long 16th century and so forth.

And there's all this debate about whether it is European, whether capitalism is a European invention or a worldwide ominous coming into being of capital as a social relationship. The systems and they say, I mean, you know, the Eurocentric and the European Marx to say war, capital is a European invention, it's rather discounted the fact that there was at the time a lot of enslaved people and many genocides at the same time occurring through colonial efforts. And these in many respects were part and parcel, or rather the rudimentary interlocking

stone in this arch which we call capitalism which holds everything edifice together because without more, without the making of wage slaves, slaves and waste slaves altogether by violent means there could have been an expatriation of capitalism as a phenomenon which has taken rules at that time. So the Eurocentrist, the Marxist

Eurosanthus, who speak of the ingenuity of Europe in the making of capitalism are rather again they make things historical subjects so the better machinery and the better inventions of Europe were something that are responsible for something which was progressive

now we know now that there's nothing progressive about capitalism and nothing at all because it's very simple and it's you know people with ideological blinders don't see things like that. But, you know, if you say that the planet is going to die off or get really sick

in 50 years' time, so it must be really sick now. So if you've consumed the acquire to the point where you're predicting that life will not be sustainable as it is now, what the social reproduction will not be sane and safe as it is now, then it is, then it is, um, uh, then it is, um, You know, you'd see that, then, of course, you know, they see that the planet is really sick, and that progresses is almost going to end life on the planet. We know it. And so there's nothing progressive.

And in the issue, one moves to say, we have a choice to be barbarism and, you know, and socialism. Well, there wasn't much socialism since then, of course, you know, Capital, the organized dimension. Capital knew very well that by co-opting the Western Left and by making sure that the Western Left becomes central and keeps saying that capitalism is progressive and that the Third World should copy the path of the First World

in order to modernize. And that modernization is costly in terms of human lives and so on and so forth. This replications, no history could be replicated, but this replication is this idea that teleologically capitalism is very progressive or the idea that look now people are living to 50 years in Liberia or in the camera but they used to live for 20 or 30 years dead well that's utterly very stupid and utterly racist as well because we know time is social and if it is social it's qualitatively shifting

and there is no way we'll get up there two points across time when we consider it a social time, which is real time, the time in which people live, while the people were dying at 30, a life expectancy was 30 in the world 500 or 600 years ago.

The causes of such life, such short life expectancy was that the planet as a whole was unintegrated and the causes of death and disease were natural as opposed to being social as we have now and natural with other consumption

with a technology that does not reduce whereas now we do have the technology to produce and we our principal crisis are crisis of all the production in fact we do not much of everything it seems I mean at least for the market that we send for we see a lot at one time or another and going into one from a moment

one crisis to another, as it's not of falling prices as a result of course by all. So if we could discard the Eurocentist who basically think that their machine makes wealth, whereas actually that thing cannot cause wealth or cause history, it must be a social relationship, a relationship between women. And an integrated world, it has become integrated, more integrated, than ever in the 16th century, we arrive at a point when when

the this integrated world where the relation, the social relation of denying the development of the other by sheer force and violence and war and enslaving the other becomes the social relation that causes the machine

and the market and all the progress, if there is any sort of progress at the time. You can call it progress in hindsight, we've got to go it progress that is seen there in the creation of wealth. Because it created. But that was what's more sane than the waste that we see now. And when we see that, you know, that this is just this socialization, that is the reason for the industrial revolution, the reason for the wealth is set in Europe, the separation of the time, of

the denial of the development. So the system analysts take that point and they think that also like then essentially the beginnings of the wage system

and Venice through the expropriation of the craftsmen and the better social division of labor in the workplace and we the merchant has become a capitalist then and we have a situation where

that's not only the case the emergence of the waste system in the streets because the wage system is the phenomenon that characterizes capital and allows us in one respect to basically say we have entered the different phase which is in capitalized phase in that phase

in particular The origins of the waste system are in the warring ships that loot and redefide the waste form to the waste sailors on ships of colonial assault. So the wage system's war was actually the birthing midwife of the capital system or the war existed in every class system but when we have a system

that is going to trade exchange value above use value, it's going to go by profitability based on production meant for profitability rather than use, that particular change in the fundamental social relations, the relationship society, the social relation that produces society, which was

reproduce, make a product, now it's making a commodity that's meant for sale, rather than say consumption. That was a particular one. Before that, the relations that govern would not necessitate the

obliteration of the editions of relations. In fact, if you were a smart few, the world of soul, wanted to keep people as alive as long as possible, because, you know, more people bad. That's why most religions say to produce and make men against the loss of that, but there are few people, you know, and so now we have a situation where people are no longer the lives of people. So they are to be wasted in order to make of them.

And this, and the whole, the cornerstone of capital, because this waste of people through wars. That's the first time. We later see the development of capitalism when we began to poison every commodity because we want to cut the cost of everything. So we make a Coca-Cola can. We need the tin from the Congo,

so we have all these wars, and we need the paint, which is basically a chemical that's going to the sugar cane and so on. All these things are, which have taken place in the past to make this commodity and this commodity life cycle, its life cycle, is going to be thrown

away as well as a pivot to cause some disease which is going to be paid by society over time again. So the real cost of this commodity and the real profitability comes from these social rates in which the cost of production of the economy had been shifted upon the core upon society and wasted

society. And since we no longer need humans so much as we did before capital, the commodity says that is being consumed by man, also consumes man, also cuts his life short because it's a

disease. So war is the ultimate condition of profitability in the system that ties, it reduces it acts, it acts to basically reduce the population, reduce the life

expectancy of the population immediately and thereafter through its repercussions of the damage to the capital structure which reproduces the capacity of society to reproduce itself. And war also has the sort of repercussions so then an absolute surplus

as a result of reducing the life expectancy of the population in the first place. And there's a relative surplus because of the power that emerges from the conquering part, that actually hageneralizes and sets the symbols

of the values that we are fed up to produce the symbols of the values on the money for the price system. It is basically in control of the price system through the creation of fictional scarcity and so-who

and all at one point and unlimited resources at another point. So we have theories of development that says development with unlimited supplies of labor. That's sort of theory of development. We have an unlimited supply of labor, which is that cheap. We've cheapened it because they are not from here. They are from there.

They're very cheap. And we have a scarcity of the things that people want to consume in the center and the north. We're not enough very few, well, not enough whatever, other commodity that's being harbbed. and monopolize so that the prices go out. So you have a system that's going to produce a two-tier system, which also has a two-tier symbolic system that prices things in its favor. People are cheap over there.

The resources are cheap, and I want to make them cheap through a particular war, which is going to give more and more. The war itself is going to give an immediate surplus, absolute surplus, and also a relative absolute surplus, because it's going to also cheap in things that workers are going to consume elsewhere. So it has the relative dimension as well added to it. So in that sense, if you have a war that does so much for the economy, and it was the pedestal upon which the capitalist system stood at its beginning

to reduce its crisis in the center, and because the crisis was a crisis of production and competition, lowering crisis. If you have a system of this nature, then what you're going to have is the outgoing crisis capital, the very condition of war, which is a form of commercial, it's a form of exploitation that exceeds super exploitation, you know, the sweat shops in Bangladesh and so forth, who work for 12 hours, seven days of week, which is a replication of other sweatshops as well. Now, this war has, if we consider that it is people,

social beings that produces, and that society produces. And we're going to short-changed society in order to get more in surplus from that society. That we're going to write a price with a system of prices of which, because we are in power, power sets the symbols. We are going to set the prices of that. Like the United States, for instance, it sets the prices. You know, when people go back to the dollar, it sets the prices of all the currencies of the world. And it could spark people by citizenship in the interest by at home,

by the federal research one way or other. No, it's the same thing here in the case of war, in the what's it doing. We're short-changing society. We're making society all that it's led, because all of societies, remember,

production is social production. When I go to work, and what all is me going to work is, you know, me, I didn't come from nowhere I didn't fall from space and I have these capabilities of this labor hour or this capacity to work that I have. I have come from family, from community

from a social border from I'm a byproduct of that global society which has actually let me mediate the potential that make work the potential that has been input in through my activity at work.

So when I am working, it's being a subdivision of society and being a social producer and a subdivision of society, I am predicated by society, and therefore all of society produces.

And to make my service, I must pay a lower labor share out of the total product of society. And the best way to do to do this is to shorten the life of society, to make it live shorter lives, relative to life.

Relative, always remember, this is not an absolute thing. It's relative to the fact that science is advancing and longevity is going to increase over time needlessly, whether we, you know, because science has its own motor of expansion. And so because we are living a much shorter life, relatives to the potential that we do, actually exercise. He goes in exercise and straight. Like life expectancy in Japan, somewhere around 100, while life expectancy

in Togo and Ben is beginning in 60. So you have a situation in the because all of global society in an integrated economic system it's not an American worker

or a German worker. That's an illusion. It's an illusion just like a price system just like this is not real. There is no such thing as an American worker. There is a social worker. An American worker is a social worker. And because his economy is integrated with the world economy,

it is the global society that imparts the potential for this worker to exercise by delivering his labor model. So what we need to put in scope here is that the issue is that, And this, the war specifically, is a different form of exploitation than super exploitation for the salient standard exploitation of labor than the civilian. Because it really short this life, it really exploits society, it makes its life expected relative to what we could exercise, giving the abundance of science and resources. that they're too short

and that sometimes some other historians and political economists when they refer to conditions of this nature what they refer to the annihilation and the

of the indigenous population they call this sort of thing you know when you bring slaves you slaves people and you you destroy you genocide the population and place the genocide with the slaves and that

process that gruesome process was for commercial. I think there was a commercial class in the East Civil War and that's what they want more slaves and so on. So this commercial exploitation is way to profit

for capital. And if it's a crisis of capital is going to increase forms of this macabre system of wasting people lives are going to increase. Yes. Just to insert briefly, since you mentioned about life expectancies and how a lot of people will say something like, well, the life expectancy 150 years ago was 20 years old or 25 years old, and now it's 50 years old.

And it's, you know, it's more than doubled in that time and then not looking at how life expectancies between various countries in the same time period, you know, like now, how those are reflective of social conditions and social availability of some, you know, commonly fun. things. So the reason I bring this up is because if you just look at the causes of death in various periods of time, it becomes very obvious that these changes, these differences in life expectancy are not due to some unavailability of some technology. You know, globally, it is within specific places that it is limited to. And I just want to bring up a couple of example. So, for example, if we're looking at one of the major causes of death, 15, 200 years ago, it was childbirth. Childbirth, the death rate was 18% prior to Igna Semmelweis coming up with the idea that you should wash your hands before delivering children. I know it sounds very silly,

but up until 1861, which is when he published on, you know, the fact that you should probably wash your hands when you're going to deliver a kid. Up until 1861, they didn't do that you know they would deliver the the children with their dirty hands and then the women would fall down with a poor pearl fever and 18% of them would die after delivering a child after they came up with the idea to wash hands that debt that death rate maternal mortality rate fell to under 2% like almost overnight that's a very simple intervention that is a huge factor into limiting the death rate of people who are in the you know what would be the prime of their lives similarly, two of the other, I think two of the highest death rates.

I know tuberculosis was number one for a very, very long time, and typhoid fever was also very high on the list of causes of death for people. Tuberculosis today is fairly easily treatable. You know, we have some resistance strains, et cetera, et cetera. But, you know, you take four to six months of rifepentine and moxifloxacin, and your tuberculosis is cured. or typhoid fever. It's a five to seven day treatment of syprofloxosin.

And again, you take that at home. You don't even have to be in the hospital to typhoid fever these days. At 150 years ago, those were what was making the life expectancy 20 to 25 years old, regardless of where you were. Today, these are not major factors of death. You know, we don't have crazy maternal mortality rates because people wash their hands. we don't have large numbers of deaths due to tuberculosis or typhoid fever in most countries because these antibiotics are widely available.

So we have to look and think to ourselves, why are we seeing a 30, sometimes 40 year difference in life expectancy between country A and country B? And this is due to, again, societal factors. It is not due to the fact that people are dying from, you know, not having the knowledge that the hands needed to be washed, which was previously the case, or not having, you know, Cyprofloxacin, which is a fairly widely available antibiotic and is produced in mass in many countries of the world.

Like, if we wanted to, we could make sure that these factors that enable people to live long and healthy lives would be equitably distributed across the globe, but that is not in the interest of capital. That is not in the interest of the imperialist countries that put it bluntly. That's just as an aside. I think that, you know, we don't really have to dwell on that too much

because I do want to turn to another major topic of your work. And I know the work of our mutual friend, Emmanuel Ness, and we're going to be bringing him on the program soon to talk about his new book. But you mentioned that the case of Palestinian migrant and commuting to Israel is an offshoot of imperialism. And I think that this is a really important topic to dwell on for some time. that migration, labor migration or otherwise, is often a form of imperialism, and not only in the specific case of Palestine, but more generally as well. So if you can talk a little bit about that,

and then we can try to tie some of these factors together when analyzing the situation in Palestine, you know, in recent years. I mean, I mean, you know, the system level of abstraction we'll jeopardize. We can tie a lot of things together and one thing will tie together here is the idea that you know, which you can actually live for a very long time

given the resources. Most people in the world are living for much short of time that they shouldn't be in a much lower quality, because usually sort of lives associated with a lower quantity as well. So you're economic, you're economizing with people's lives

and what will make profit. So if we want to make a formula, so the rate of reduction for life expectancy, that's what is available out there, must be equal to the rate of profitability. You know, some rate of profitability. So you have a system that rounds on this, by this formula, you know,

is a very scary system. And that's a system we have, by the more you waste people to fall there, you know, than a sort of reasonable life expectancy and so. And just to mention, a lot of these countries will even make calculations onto the value of an individual person and whether or not it's worth spending more money than that on to saving that person or to increasing their quality of life, you know, if that isn't far in excess to what we value them as an individual, which I think really speaks to what you're talking about in terms of profitability

and, you know, what we're actually willing to spend in order to provide people with a decent standard of life and a decent life expectancy. You know, we have these calculations coming out from places around the world of what they value the individual human life at, which I find quite perverse in itself. Yeah. Well, I mean, da-da, When you have a system that works like this, the reality of that system is social, social, the activity, the people together. The society is a set of social relations.

People relate to each other and their social relations as well that reflect the totality of social relations. When you have things, when you have this intermix, have this activity, which is how we are, really, you know, what you need, you cannot show people, you know, you're in command and you're making the process. You cannot show people that you are all together making this work this way or that way.

You must create, you must create the abstinence, an abstract individual who's right at the abstract. It was completely correct in the opposite. And you project that, you know, you make your apparatuses of idealistic production. Make sure that you'll produce this abstract in people day and night.

So when you go to your class with your office, All you see is the individual that individual is the sort of non-existent being. I mean, he comes from outer space and he delivers hours of labor. He has no history. And somebody without a history cannot exist. It must exist a view of time. So if you live in a system of prices, you know, let's say I go to the store and I want to buy something. Supply is not the fact that I find it on the shelf.

And profitability is not, you know, what the die paid for the cost to produce that Coca-Cola can. Why, you know, I paid a dollar. He paid 50 cents. The real profit in the fact that, you know, there are organizations and institutions and state and peers. I've gone to the third world and purchased the third world. Not to reduce the cost for this Coca-Cat to be presented for me. and you know I might pay a lot more later so when there is history when I look at the history of the individual how you know if the wage is my price of labor well I mean I must know

am I is my society because my society has a labor grant they invested it they put a lot of asset other care so on and so if we we think of all of that you know then somebody is going to paying me one dollar an hour for my work. I mean, the sure thing is what we're going to pray is not enough to basically reproduce the societies for which I came. He'll probably, you know, give me a privilege of sorts by making me an individual lose interest, challenge about the interest of society, such that all of society is going to make it be worse because it's not big enough for the neighbor that it has actually resolved

than me. But over time that society is going to be worse and worse. And me being out of a society, I also go worse and worse than White Likes going to do. Now, so all of this boils down to this

simple formula that in the end labor must be shortchanged for profits to be made. And by shortchanging labor, you're going to short, you're going to shorten the life of them, given the resources.

And migration is that sort of, you know, migration is that sort of scenario. It begins, it doesn't begin by some guy moving, you know, moving north because he saw that the wages of the north are higher or something like that. It begins with the fact that there is an army of, of, raged soldiers and raised propagates from the north that moves to the south, to least stabilize. South of the world were to create the conditions for the expulsion of labor and the South. Because what you mean is the pressure of the global wage system from the surplus population. That's going to always, you know, some obedience in that, in one point.

It was very good, actually, not a good name. Now, the poor are there to, you know, the unemployed are there to scare the people who are going through their job and stuff like that. So you create a pressure of the system. But you also, that's the same. That's the commonplace interpretation of it. The real interpenter, the other side is by the fact that you are displacing people. You're creating something.

You are creating some migrants through this north-to-south migration. You're creating a south-to-north migration. But at the same time, you are creating so much poverty and disease and indigency in the South such that you are wasting people before their time. When it talks to the original formulation that we had at the beginning, but in the end, you're going to make a surplus by how short the life lives. So your popularization, your dimineration of the south becomes an industry

that's called short of people's lives. You're going to spend less on the social reproduction of labor to sustain labor to this someone to day. Because on average over a lifetime of society some cycle or two, a generation or two, people are

dying earlier so you're spending less on that because they're so cheap and dying earlier. They're so cheap to see that dying earlier that you are a lot more of the surpluses left to you and also you create from your victory through this this confused death and destruction you're creating and the propaganda you're creating the conditions for

the evisceration of emotional and consciousness as well such that as one Palestinian nationalist says death is saving this population from their lives so you have a situation where you know death saves from lives because life becomes so visible

and that's the corporate style that's the crux and the gist of the profit-making system because again if you look at the Coca-Cola can example I mean it is It is not because it's one dollar on the shelf that is being supplied and being profitable to, you know, 50-50 or something like that. It's not the numbers that have sort of a fetish-like image that I have interjected, that I have simulated. I look at things with the book accounts of capital and the crisis, which are symbols of capital, all this fictional reality. The real reality, there is history of that go down, is that.

involves some more that involves sugar clean plantation. It involves a paint which is made in wood, the chemicals, the poison the environment. It involves cutting trees to make the sugar plantation. It is going to involve more medical

bills in the future and so on. So the co-carries in, is representative of a whole bunch of the glass of commodities that capital produces in order to, in order to make profits with these commodities, He must reduce life's quality and lifespan everywhere

so that such that the cost of life, the cost of labor, the cost of society is less and less. And when you have such abundance of labor because of modern technology, you make an industry out of wasting labor itself. The industry of wasting labor is not a non-productive activity. There is no such thing as a non-productive activity. When, you know, there is an example from the theories of service value, where, you know, as one said, that the police, the crime creates the policeman, the client creates a judge and all of this.

So we have a system of social interaction in which something that is as wasteful as a crime creates a whole bunch of other waste activities that are actually productive for its system. are the rifles, that waste, is the right of the system. So, I mean, the mother is maybe not obvious a sign to make a, to make a car. I'm not to be, you know, systematized as productive labor. But she is making the productive labor and reproduction. Social and reproduction is different than social production. It is production many times over.

And social reproduction, everybody becomes productive. And when you say, We say everybody gets corrupted and society as a totality of social inflection. To make more, you must undermine society. And in a duty system where you need some workers to support you and carry your guns and carry you propaganda. And you need a worker to die early because he's an industry that said, it is no longer, I no longer go to the South to make sure that I get the immigrants of the South. I go to the south

to make the south perish before it's right and that's the output. The waste of the human is the output. It is a macabre situation, a sea of depression so you know we are and that's what we see with the structure of genocide. The structure of

genocide which you know in the work on the working class conditions in Britain in the 19th century you will see one Structural genocide was described, it was described as poverty and disease, you know, basically making people perish earlier. And so we have a much bigger structural genocide, relative to the capacity that we have today, we have got much bigger genitals, structural genocide. The people who perish that we do not see.

Now, we come to the, you know, to the example of the forced migration. In Palestine, forced migration. Palestine is a peculiar situation, and that's why I studied that. It is because you have a 1948 forced migration. I mean, the history of, you know, the history of capitalism is a history of migration, history of forced migration where you have people being exchanged and that's because it's that tumultuous situation is a certain instance not like an unproductive something we did not make cold camps

but even you know you see now today's in today's world whatever you make is is a sort of if we consider the bomb it's a perfect waste because it does that you know just purely wasted you're going to it up. But it involves, of course, it's a cause it mows down people's lives and its productivity is by how useful it is in killing more people.

Now, every other commodity is just like a bomb because it must involve some poisonous element in its production and some social poisoning as well as some social exploitation process and also some chemical poisoning that's going to consume the human being that is consumed with the commodity. So it is a percentage, it is a personal dialogue about every commodity has some same side to it, which is useful, but the principle of side of it is not useful.

And when you consider how much we've over-consumed nature and how much poison with glory, it is so we go to, you know, as I said, that migrations are characterized, the war and, you know, war is always, you know, involves some migration, some dislocation. Wars are constant. And so we have a war in the beginning. We have the first force migration, the ethnic lands, the genocides and a massacre symbol. If you look at the records of the National Red Cross, every village in the village, almost every village was ethnic. There were people that were shot in those villages.

And some, in some cases, a big percentage of the out of the village of the villagers called Spitzinvites. And now this is a punch, that's the first. the first way in order to create a settler colonial state that is an extension of Western Judaism because you know Zionism

Speer heads as a benchhead Israel and Zionism here has the activities of imperialism and that's what's envisaged and pre-configured in the very you know

Alphoon and others all the writings say it's or they're almost white and you know and one so they're going to

serve as furthering the goals of Western civilization by settling

Palestine in nothing whatever pitex and now what you have

you have the first you have the first but the satellite control to eradicate this itself

it needs to eradicate the global population first of all they create the mythology that there is some

in Palestinian Palestine I mean as a state is so it's Syria and there are people living there and so we must at least create the divisions

along the national land so you make a Palestinian who has existed just like any fabricated nationality some you know I don't know what time

like the Jew existed existed in 30 thousand years And you have a debate as if ideas from the past lived in the present shape and form and substance, which is impossible. I mean, you know, if you tell a kid that, you know, there was a market in the 12th century and there's a market now and they're both markets. They may be called markets, but they have nothing similar to each other. You know, whether in the 12th century, gold boats in the world that are carrying luxury goods sink at seas. and all other goods were spices were right. If these things and see,

nothing would dent the social life of society because it lived afraid and agriculture and disease and so but if you have a single you know change in the commodity market futures or in any

you know the industry or federal conserved or something like the whole world is convulsed as a result of this situation so it may be called market but it's to think. So most simple, no, you know, words of, you know, can be separated from the social material context and historical context in which it exists. So the whole idea, the mythology around that is to create also, you know, like you create a Jew who has persisted who was above history,

who has created history, lived through history and through, you know, 3,000 years. You also create a Palestinian you know that that's you know further justifies and makes easy the eradication of the local population because you are if you say Arabs you have to basically do make do with a 400 million or so now but if you have a Palestinian you have 15 million so it's a much easier war to fight and within the border of what is Israel now you know water keeps changing and they're for good or whatever you have you can you can do away with that so the project the the project of the second wave of expulsion came after the 1967 second way

forced expulsion but whoever was left was uh you know since you destroyed the basis of the national economy, the indigenous economy was forced to work in Israel. So working for the enemy was the only way to survive. These people were, and what the Zionists did is to make sure that they created the dependency of the wage system of in the territory to further demolish the indigenous economy. Substand the indigenous economy cannot support the population to create a further further ethnic cleansing through economic means

if you can't create the ethnic in the anti-drenzy by means of war and created by economic so you have this push of Palestinian labourism outside of Palestine

because it's part of all of this how does this relate to the bigger imperialist project for the region because as we know the imperialism mean this is a vital reason

It's a vital reason in which, you know, you need ultimate control because the ultimate control of war and oil and war itself is an industry, oil itself is an industry, and together they give you the hegemony asset, you know, to basically extend, create the power relations that boost exploitation, it's expression of life across the world. So from there, if the United States wins there, it wins all over the world because of the importance of that strategic place. And more so, it also creates the currency, it gets the backup for its dollar for its universal currency of exchange to become the median through which value transfers are conducted. all trade is in conduct all world trade is conducted

all world savings are held in the dollar and value transfers whenever you have all of the dollar holding together all this special thing you're going to have that so the Palestinian issue now grows out of itself it becomes a worldish

and it becomes at this first of all it is going to impart the industry of destruction to the rest of the other.

We are going to see Libyans, stories, Sudan, is going to see Syria, destroy, all of these things. Because these are products, a product of history

which, you know, these countries were born into a world as modern states, created as modern states, by the imperiors, by the Kurdish, with no capacity

whatsoever. I mean, you had, you had the rule. population, which was demographically growing without anything to feed it, without the resources that were there. And you limited the resources. So you already created that conditions for misery and the expulsion of the local populations. And what you have at the same time is the creation of the state of Israel by the colonialism, which is, you know, is going to supervise this relationship of dispossession of expropriation

by constantly warring against the Arab world, by constantly scaring the Arab world. And what the symbolism of the Palestinian questions and that resonates in the masses of the Arab world as symbols of working class struggle

because they're not some, they're not only religious symbols, because here the national struggle that go overlaps so they become as symbols of the national struggle. Because they're United States imperialism is supporting Israel. So what you have is a situation where you're going to see, well, in some estimates,

45 million people just died in the war of terror last year, of 34 years. And Israel is the same. Is Israel related to the West? You can see from the way they scrambled after October 7th to come to the rescuers. You know, it's not like, they don't want

Israel to lose. It's not that they don't want Israel to lose. It's their image that has taken a blow. And the image is very important because capital is all an image, it's all a fiction. And it's all about imagery, imagery that they're capable of creating.

Not only because of their power of persuasion, that's not the issue. That's not the case. They're capable of creating because they have beaten people and masses into submission. time and again so much so that the images and the symbols

that the powerful West creates are going to become the Fetacompley and the state of affairs by which people are going to reason things and that's the only, you know, the imperialism is going to ration

the knowledge of infrastructure and create a sort of knowledge that reproduces its supremacy over the algorithm. And so the other situation where this power mesh of Israel uses the Eichael problem in Israel, uses the forced

evacuation and the forced ethnic nation and the world to create the war to fomend the war of aggression against the other world which is again when you lack capacity with black developers also

lack the national defenses you don't have the same spark as well. You're, you know, you're sitting duck just like the Red Indian, the Native Indians in America were when all the white people arrived with muskets. And now they're arriving

with a 35 and most people have slingshots compared to the ester. And this master, this ongoing pastor, which is not something that is morally appalling only or something

It's not about the morality is always the morality of the dominant. What you have in this situation is an industry of wasting people's lives to make money. So by making war and making people on average, live short a time, relative to what capacity universal science and capacity can offer us now, that's the surplus that's going to invade that's new thing. and translated by the symbols of imperialists as its properties. So you have a system where the superstructure of the period because it's so, it's legal, it's religious, it's propaganda, its state laws and all of this,

which actually govern the globe through its meta-institutional, like the United Nations, like nations, all of these things, that is going to discipline, it's going to mediate the gains of the social games, opinions of people that are at heart, that lesser lives of people at the worst lives, people tend to a price which is going to become a problem. That's the point that is, you know, that people don't see off in wars.

That's how pivotal, and when you have so much idle labor, you know, because now we've developed so much technology that basically, you know, somebody writes, it's not ingenious to write a book, you know, bullshit labor or something like that. Because obviously much of world labor is eking and living for being, well, eating nothing, you see. And so, but that's not bullshit, really. Because, I mean, what has happened is that you've given,

made sure that the very condition by which he grew in the 16th century, by enslaving others and limiting them and destroying the potentials of others, is the fact that you have better things and better universities and better time. And your better universities, by chance, are the byproduct of your ideological structure, which is going to reproduce the measure of the misery of them. So only the tag names of the big universities become just as powerful as the guns that capital uses and destroying the rest. So when you say there's a publication that came from university so-and-so, which is a big name and tag name or something else, that becomes the name tag becomes a weapon against the development. Well, because it has this, you know, it's been authenticated as something worthwhile. whereas the real purpose of all the science is to continue to the accumulative process

which lives under this seminar issue which is the shortening of life of order. So immigration and migrants migration issue at the fourth migration of Palestine is the constant world in the most important issue. It's a constant war with an airy balanced policy. A very powerful, you know, if you can win a war a few days, most dotted the archives of the 60s of the archives.

When they're talking about the power of this and the other Arab countries, and literally say, you know, the Zionists could win a war against the Arabs in a few days. You know, they have immense structure. But the issue with this The issue with this again is that technology is developing so fast and a disagree with somewhere in the technological development

that's going to give an edge to some distraught people somewhere will bring the whole thing into conflagration, some sort of end of time to conflagration.

So it's a very shaky business. It's not like only the environment that is going to take mankind down the road to four, five degrees of heat and all the misery associated with dampening

and necessarily poisoning nature, you're going to have a situation where what systems of futures might be destructive weapons might be available as a shape and forth

everywhere. So the process becomes capital with its rationality for the world. It's irrational for society. And there's, you know, most of the most universities work on a sort of justification

of the irrationality of the world. You know, okay, capitalism is bad, but there is no alternative. You know, and you get always the demonization of Stalin, you know, so the whole class ferval hinges on one word which is Joseph Stalin

So you know you can say whatever you want and they'd say well you know Stalinism is communism to produce planning which you know in the world that is an arshik that reduces

by competition and anarchy you need to organize man in nature that's a very simple you know reaction to the fact that if you The world is Alaskan and taking us to the abyss, then you need to organize. The way to organize by nature must be planning.

It must be planning to, you know. We know from examples, historical itself, whenever the words are that, some sort of foresight of how resources should be allocated without the value relation, which is the waste relation. Remember the value relation? It's waste.

We call it that. It's definitely waste. There's nothing. valuable though. It's the wrong law, it's a misbele. It's a waste of it. And, you know, when you want to do things for the

better than society, you're going to plan, and if you're going to plan, we're going to limit the way. You're going to put back in humans and nature what you have taken out of human and nature and most of these things. And make sure that this is a same thing that's not going to consume that. Not create

every commodity that is a sort of bomb that consumes it. that consumes man whether it's going to give him disease i mean the process is topological you know the whole planet is going together with those who are living better now but they're all going now together uh it's a sort of you know they're all about heading had it towards the big uh waterfall and and and uh and they're dancing on the raft they don't realize where if they're going i said before i don't want to say something which is predatory here, but what's

you know what has happened is the role of Western Marxism in jetting into presenting capitalism's progress, presenting the exploitation of labor

in production rather than in social reproduction. So production is quite different. Production is a time again, hypothesize and formulate, with forms and things like that, the social reflection, of course, capital formulated and so on, but slower over the time of history and half time and have history, you have reality, and you're more in touch with the reality, you have a better grasp of the other, time and again, you know who's productive, you know, the whole world produces together, and that sort of thing. So, the, the,

in all of this, I mean, I want to jump shit here, I'll jump ahead here and say that the assault on Gaza, the assault on the Palestinian people is a continuous interest. It's not because, you know, there's some people who want to live, others are not supposed to live there. That's, you know, that's the sort of epitaph,

some, you know, some sort of rhetorical thing to be said. It has nothing of people being displext and want to live but it's, oh well that's what happens that's obvious, right? But what it does it creates a huge war

which is the biggest you know, which reformulates the power structure and if you reformulate the power structure, the power relations and you fully reformulate all the valid mutations because every vanification is a social and if it's a social it must be as a

also real, historical, and the power religion. And every power nation is a class power. So there are classes in the process of social relations, but are being consumed in classes which are consumed in these two years. Which is going on into our glifians some sort of disaster

situation. And the Palestinian coast, the Reich of Palestinians to return is not only the route of people to go back to the age, which is an absolute track. It is about humanity de-alienating itself, because you are going to defeat the sepulogic state that is the product of the imperialism, but that is the king pen, the linchpin, the linch king, that's the whole thing with female structure. And that's what Zionism did. And when the Luzurto talked about, you know, came the example from history, whenever peoples are defeated and murdered by the Romans or something,

they become slaves of them and they work for them. So that's what we have, a similar situation. So in point of fact, this, you know, this, when men push comes to shove, we come to the point of resistance. How do you resist against the system of that nature? We recall now that the Western formations altogether hinge also and are by a tautistly a

setter colonial formation. So you have Canada, Australia and Britain, which is basically tried to settle and colonize the rest. And France and then another and Portugal and straight. You know, what you have

here is, you know, something which exceeds Israel. It's the mother ship of old settler colonial. The others because he is not like us he shouldn't exist so what do we have being in the situation how do you how do you resist against the system which is which reproduces which has the settler colonial that would basically you know whether it's america i don't know what the other should exist

whatever the case and at the same time making money out of it for this for this you You know, the working classes would guarantee associate with capital in the West. So by the group, you know, when people say, oh, I'm paying taxes to be invested in the complex. They're going to Israel. But that's, you know, for that big block of the white working class, say that white, the white, and I don't know if you're white.

So you have this descriptor. I know, scripted, not necessarily. If you have that, that what you have is a situation where the nothing, you know, the access of the

pain to the blessed, are investments in the empowering you at the U.S. tour and increasing in periods of evidence of which U.S. capital in its associating classes get higher dividends.

So you have given You know, invest in something It's not lost You know, lost something Because you get You get, okay Aside from the militarism And the fact that you move a couple of attacks

Or whatever, but that's beside That's really a trivial part The need part of the process Ingoverned the United States of course By having more military bases Fighting more than, creating the instability That is going to drive all the resources to the same. As it did,

in the 16th century as in the 11th century. So you have a situation where, you know, how do you stop? You cannot convince a working class that lifts up the period's dividends to stop bombing the show. You cannot tell

them, look, you know, you've created, that working class is not really a working class. It is the same reason of the commodity, which is what is this thinking of the commodity? How else the commodity? I want to send it at any course. I want to make a profit, and he goes, any social cost, I need to make a profit. That's the result that, that's, that's the reasoning of the things that we've created,

and that now keep it face our life, right? So if that, these people interject, they assimilate, they absorb the reason, this reason of the commodity. They become commodities, and that's the scary part. When people become commodities, they lose, they lose, they become, they become, they become, they become, they become, they become, they become. more like things and if you don't feel you don't have ethics, ethics becomes the

morality of the community itself which is I want to make things at any cost and the other present is a good. So if you are a working class, I'm associated with this, how do you resist? We have examples. How do set the colonial formations come undone. They come on down

by shifting the global power balance followed against them and that's what needs to be done so the strategy of the very meaning

people who are demonstrated it's not it might the demonstrations you know for Gaza might actually

show they're not going to make the West change his mind because the West is not

supporting Israel Israel is fighting the war of the West in that sense you know they're both

there's a symbiosis so what you have is is a situation where you cannot you must change the balance of power

and cannot this demonstrations might make them look good this idea of boycotting retailed outfits like gold out

because they you know they're selling it's also quite nothing in the bigger scheme of things what needs to be done on the

resistance is the policies have to change the golden ship the global Paris powers against the western. That's what

is. And there are only policies. Yes. I think. So I have just two quick comments and then I'll go to my final question, which in many ways is the biggest question, but we've already covered a lot of it, I think, so you can be as brief as you want with that. So

listeners, as a brief aside, you may have heard the professor talking about Stalin and Luscerdo. That is not by accident. We were talking about the book before we hit record. So, you know, if you want to know more about the Stalin book by Lesotho. We have the episode on guerrilla history.

We have the interview on Rev. Left, which is separate from the one that we did on guerrilla history. We've done them on other shows like millennials are killing capitalism. And of course, you can pick up the PDF for free from ISC for books. But yeah, that was not an accident. One of the other things that I wanted to just touch on briefly before I opened with my last question is that, you know, we're talking about this forced migration and also dispossession. And one of the things that we've been seeing, you know, rhetorically from Zionists is that there is no genocide because we don't have, you know, these mass extermination camps, as if genocide can be, you know, totalized in this form and this form alone of extermination camps.

And, you know, the wiping out entirely of a population of people. Of course, this is not, you know, genocide is not just this. there are many forms of genocide. We have some great articles that have been coming out recently. I know that there was one that has been, you know, making the rounds and from Jewish currents, actually, it's a textbook case of genocide. You know, there's many forms of genocide,

and dispossession and forced migration is one of those forms. I know one of the rhetorical talking points that Zionists online in particular have been having is they'll show the number of the population of Gaza for example and say, look, this is the least effective genocide in history because the population of Gaza is growing. Okay, first of all, if your argument is it's not a genocide because they're giving birth faster than we're able to kill them, like that's not a great argument for you.

Just, you know, saying that we can't kill them as fast as we want to is not a great justification for what you are doing. But also, something like 80% of the people in Gaza are not originally from Gaza or from families that were not originally from Gaza. They were forced out from their, you know, original homeland into Gaza. So of course the population is going to grow from that alone. And of course, the birth rate in Gaza is high, you know, like there is, there is a lot of,

you know, the youth of Gaza are a very large percentage of the population of Gaza. But when you look at just the population like 1947 versus today, something like 80% of the families in Gaza are. not originally from Gaza. So necessarily the population is going to be starting from a higher point due to the forced migration or, you know, the dispossession and forcing of the people into that location, then, you know, coupled with having a high birth rate. That doesn't mean that it's not genocide. You know, that doesn't mean that that is not happening. So that's, you know, again, kind of isn't an aside just touching on, you know, some of the topics that we've been talking about.

My final question, like I said, is in many ways the biggest question, but I just want to it open for you. I know we've already talked about a lot of these things and that you've mentioned a lot of the things that you would inevitably say in this section. So, you know, feel free to cut those out because we've already talked about them, which is that, you know, in your books, you do have a focus on the history of Palestine, which I think is very important. You, you analyze the history in a slightly different way than we generally see. And also, you, have this analysis of the Zio imperialist project, which is to say, you know, the Zionist state, so-called state of Israel.

And these two conceptions that you, you know, you put forward this reading of Palestinian history and the conception of the Zion imperialist state, they come together to give us this, you know, really rich understanding of that history, that historical stretch of time, as well as what is going on in the present. why it is going on in the present. So the question essentially is, you know, can you take some of these things that we've talked about in this conversation, the primacy of politics, the theorization of war that

we've discussed, migration is imperialism, all of these different factors that we've been talking about, along with your reading of Palestinian history and your conception of the Zion imperialist state and the apparatus that they play a role in and kind of merge those together to kind of give our listeners a little bit of a different understanding than they probably are presented within the media and even within a lot of other, you know, liberal left discourses on the subject. And we'll close out on that. I just want to leave the floor open for you to kind of give a, like I said, you can be as brief

as you want, but give your analysis of this whole field of place so that listeners can understand the mode of analysis that you're going through and, you know, when they look at what is happening, they can take that mode of analysis into play. Well, let's go back to this capital relationship, which is, you know, the idea that you're going to make a profit and expensive. And the more that you'll be more social costs that you create the society, the environmental costs or the human costs that you create a society,

are actually going to be translated into prophets for you. Because you're going to have that over time, over real time, the multiple courses, the real social time, time in society that's true for generations. That time less is going to be spent on society, and more is going to be left for. And of course, the disempower, the defeated passes, will not have enough power to,

make moniform symbols, crisis, of the things of the neighbor they offer or the resources they have under their grounds or something else, right? So you have a situation where this relationship is facing this contradiction, this contradiction between private interests and societies, society, social. And this contradiction is going to see that Bermier suffuse all the current of social activity, all the products. As I discussed so far,

war is the principle was the inception. War was the ultimate form of and the ultimate forms of making society in the highest course, and then form making capital, reap the highest profits. War was at the inception of capitalism. And war continues and now is bigger

than before. And at the same time, as the world, the death of the environment has created, so many social ills as well. The environment, though, is a bonus for captains. You know, you will make the environment sick

and the environment displays his neighbor and Schwarzden's neighbors like, because it poisons somebody who does not have enough money to go to treat his cancer. And so you have all the situation where all these situations that are actually in this

self-reproducing system, impending system here, which is in which this seminal relationship is at the heart of the matter, which is a contradiction. What happens is you have this two-tier system, the system that mainly the local society and the northern subordinates path, south in the Antwerp. You have this system which now finds itself that it is making more and more by more and more wasting environment and wasting humans and be war being the fore-cost

form of waste, it's going to resort more and more waste. Basically, reduce an absolute surplus and the relative surplus and make sure that it stays in power of privacy and politics is we're going to pay a $10 million dollar rockets.

Now you can hit a hut because in the future we're going to make a lot of money from that. Now in that, What I need to say here is in that structure, the upper structure, there's the commanding structure in this hierarchical border structure, this vertical hierarchical go to such spots where the West sit on top.

You can't say we're fighting the idea of capital. You must get it to structure. There must be somebody to fight. And this somebody to flag is in the Western Hemisphere. That's where the wealth and money and the real wealth goes to almost of it now is waves and it's going to kill us but it's that's where things are going right and that's the process of of you know self-destruction but the higher rate of destruction or the other that's so to summarize his country well that requires not only a few

soldiers and and some soldiers some military industry and couple of teaching stations that are going to basically promote this militarism. It's going to, militarism is going to become the soul of that society, the spirit of that society. It's going to become the

reasoning that's going to reproduce society. So every aspect of life, even the social welfare system that's going to back say, we're going to be treating people for free. It's going to be a sort of hand out to

a soldier of the future who is going to swear an allegiance to the flag that is going, you know, who is going to feel a threat to his way of life from Afghanistan and that he is going to destroy it.

So the system is not only the industrial the whole social formation is an industrial because it could war time and again since the 16th century. Well, more so since the price of the modern state in the guises that we have on this year.

So we have a situation where this needs to be exposed. You need to basically go out of the naive epistemology. Oh, we know, okay, we make money out of war because we made a attack or two. And then we created a few jobs. That's not, you know, that's really the tip of the iceberg. That's not the totality of the situation. The totality of the situation is in the process of now war as a social process.

We create the conditions in this race and ways that redresses power deficits for the empire. And resituates the relationship of capital, which is this contradiction that expropriates with social, atop the pyramid of social community. That's one point, first thing that comes to mind. The other thing that comes to mind is that and how to basically demilitarize. Because this is a process that is obviously alienated, it's strange from social control.

Because if you have profitability, which is something which is objective, which exists outside of you, it's in the market, and this profitability is practically leading us to do things in one way or another, by first making us our sense powerful to make both. That's the practice of fault. It's not a one-to-one rapport between us at the market. It's not because the market is the top market fair, but we want to go to a war tomorrow. there is no such thing, no such teleology

or no such algebraic time, time, social time. The future can decide the present, because we're human beings. We decide now, the future decides where we are now, because where we're going to be in the future. So, you know,

causality is a little bit more complex with this. And that causality is that, you know, first signals, the one did we see a drawn, We see a drop in power, drop in plasma. So we must regress the drop in plasma. And that's the poisoning and the world.

So we live in a system of this nature. Now, how do we, again, you know, these processes are alienated. They are just outside of us. They are strange. And that's what, and they dictate, they dictate to us what to do. And so the alienation

It's basically the reappropriation of what is so. So that, you know, somebody says, look, like China, you know, China, for instance, has gone from one of the poorest countries in the 1940. Now a very relatively prosperous country, with the life expectancy higher than the United States. So we can see that basically the Chinese Communist Party has taken what it is, it has taken from society to produce things, but he has put back in society something more than commenced.

So the work he lost now is doing fine. It's not so prosperous, but it has a sane level of development. And it develops in the shadow of a strong national security apparatus. Because you can't have development without a strong national security structure because imperialism is a constant aggression. It is not something that you know, you know, you know, you think somebody is going to decide. You know

war is next, for sure. And why war is next? Because war is the industry. Like somebody going to work at the war. You know what he has? It's a nine to five job. War is a job. And the whole spot is. So what you have is a situation where you need the national security in order to buttress you, you know, your security of living.

You're living security. You can't have this without the other. And the national security takes precedence in a war that is based, you know, if you are aggressed and you, you know, like Afghanistan on the African countries, aghast with the policies, not necessarily with wars. Sometimes as Garcia-Marquez said, the decisions they make, they kill. And the structural genocide is ongoing, as you said, there are many forms. Well, we know that one child

then dies every four or five seconds but necessarily in this world. And that's one, something that we have data on. There's all the things that we don't have data on. So this idea, we have a process, a structural genocide which is ongoing, which sometimes peaks in war.

Genocide, right? The start we'd see, the massacre that we see in Gaza. the genocide and Gaza which is completely enough

like you said we have people who are resisting the aggression of the enemy which has pushed them

out of their problems and they are they have they quite exercise the right of the United

patients resolutions which went of the resolution 101 which created the state

of zero things on the one at 1.80. These resolutions created, it's a very, very unusual state that was created by United Nations resolution. And also, the same body that created this state

also says, look, you know, you must get out of the United States, and travel return to return in New York, and your very existence of the same, you know, the very state of your state is in question. That's really what is happening now. That's the problematic that we have, is that the resistance of their refugees,

they exercise the right of the right, and the violence is endemic. And we say violence, violence is an endemic with the system. And if you look at how violence exercised at the fringe of the United States working class. And you see the prism and violence of the lower echelons of society, that sort of violence that's instilled by the system onto the population to self-waste, to auto-kill itself.

And so, you know, that population could do better if it steals that violence against the perpetrator of the individuals and really the inner violence, the inner ghetto's violence and so on. And it doesn't do that because part of the reason is the ideological. crisis of it, the ideological crisis, again, is, you know, the organized damage, knew the importance of revolutionary thought to its longevity, to its longevity, to its future, to its starving hour, and it knew that if it could abort, if Western Marxists could abort the revolution of thought, by actually making it a question of democracy, this for demonstration.

and parliamentarianism, and all these faneria of things that capital creates as a fiction, as just another fiction, because it's itself, it's a fiction. Then it actually disembowels revolutionary consciousness. There is no room anymore for anything to grow into the evolutionary consciousness. The issue of consciousness now and the rise of the world is a two-facet situation in this sense. One is

because you have the person the class which is consuming the other place. You know, the France for nonsense. You have a class which are consuming them. And it is prosperity, although together they're going

down. But this prosperity of the because the ecological conscience have the risk of clear conflagration or other forms of mass destruction because technology is developing other forms of mass destruction as we speak because the whole system

is geared towards destruction and mass creates at one time or another the probability is very hard for the creation of the probability of a contradiction might not be hard because so long as history has not come fully in

controlled in personal history is not full of control of the person. And that's another way to. But if you have a situation where that you know, then the idea of, you know, this

consuming class is now immersed because a class is a mode of social reproduction. What people, what forms of social organization, how people relate to each other, to live. day by day. That's how other class

is a young. A class of people with our friends of sorts. So they come a Rothier class. And so you have a class that lives of the wasted lives of the third world. It must always reproduce

the mentality and the morality to waste you justify how we're going to waste the third world to live off it to get dividends to give us. This class has no revolution. whatsoever. It cannot, this class which is integrated with the military system of the West, which is part of the

heritage structure, cannot be, cannot be, cannot have a potential for revisionary because its own existence is limited by by the fact that it needs to consume the other. It's a sort of necrotrophic it's sort of, you know, it's parasitic and kills the host as well. So you have that, and you have at the same time the people whose lives are being

consumed short, cut short and consumed in the host in the cell. And these people have must exercise the right to life and exercising the world to life is exercising their potential. There must be a way for these people have the potential to become. The revolution is.

And that's what we're seeing now with the rise of China. The global balance of power is shifting. Russia is it broke the sanctions of Russia and it has deals with Russia. It broke the sanctions

on things where The world is changing and because of the tilt of this map, which threatens the militaristic system of the West which lives by the colonial sepular mentality. You can't convince it people

that, you know, genocide in the Australians and Canadian Nentives and the American natives Israel is doing wrong. It's impossible because they are the parents of this mentality. From which Zionism is just a newborn child of the great

western genocides of of settling in colonialism. So you are, you have a situation the potential now, the right to life, the right to a peace and living, is being, you know, it's called exercise and the room for a growth of revolution and the reversal of the death and destruction that the Western marches are raw against. The idea that the West proletariat is a revolutionary proletariat

whose social welfare is going to increase the risk of revolution led something like Isaac. Say the mind that China is incapable of being fructified with revolution and you know, and it's a sort of language that comes from that sort of left. The social democracy that is responsible for the ethnic of the globe and the structure of genesis and parading itself under the revolution of balance. The real revolution. Bada is interting the balance of power against this revolution and this colonization. And that's, I think, it's what you're going to say. And I think that that's a great

note to end on. So listeners, again, our guest was Professor Ali Gadry. We were focusing on his book, a theory of forced labor migration, the proletarianization of the West Bank under occupation. A terrific book, a terrific scholar, I hope that we can bring you back on the program. Again, in the semi-near future, I'd really like to, I mean, you have a lot of really interesting scholarship that's being done. I know you're doing work on China right now that, of course, we would like to know about as that work continues to be developed. I'd like to talk with you about the Arab Spring.

I know next year would be a good time for it just based on, you know, timeline-wise and, you know, anniversary-wise. But it was really a pleasure getting to talk with you long overdue, and I hope that we can do it again sometime soon. So, Professor, is there anywhere that you would like to direct the listeners to if they want to find more of your work? Most of it is being pirate in July 5.20. Well, if people are... I don't want to take off the publishers. Well, you know, you don't have to, but, you know, listeners, if you are looking, get in touch and we'll help you out on that front in any case. So, Professor, thanks again.

It was a great pleasure. Listeners, as for me, you can find me on Twitter at Huck-1995, H-U-C-1-995. We can follow Gorilla History on Twitter at Gorilla underscore Pod, G-E-R-R-I-L. L-L-A- underscore pod. Follow my two co-hosts, even though they weren't able to make it today. Brett, all of his work is at Revolutionary Left Radio.com, and Adnan can be found on Twitter at Adnan A-Husain. That's H-U-S-A-I-N.

As for supporting the show, you can do that, of course, on Patreon at patreon.com forward slash guerrilla history. Again, that's G-U-E-R-R-I-L-A history. Your contributions are what allow us to make the show. and make episodes like this. So on that note then, and until next time, listeners, solidarity. Thank you.