Guerrilla History - Part 2 - Why Political Education & Historical Knowledge is KEY for Activism/Organizing - Panel

Episode Date: September 30, 2022

In this Intelligence Briefing, we continue the conversation with our panel from last week by doing listener Q&As.  Be sure to stay tuned for future Spaces, if you have questions you'd like to ask them, and sign up for our patreon to help keep the show up and running and to send us comments anytime!  To follow each of the panelists on Twitter, just click on the link after their name: James: @GoodVibePolitik, Ilima: @ItsIlima, Isa: @endsanctions, Matt: @MattxRed, Mikey: @karaokecomputer, Mirah: @snackvampire, Sam: @zukosmama, Shatha: @shathawho Help support the show by signing up to our patreon, where you also will get bonus content: https://www.patreon.com/guerrillahistory  We also have a (free!) newsletter you can sign up for, a great resource for political education!

Hello, guerrilla historians. This is a non-co-host of Gorilla History podcast. You're in for a treat. We have part two of our panel discussion on why political education and historical knowledge is key to activism and organizing. In part one, which is already out on the podcast feed, and hopefully you've had a chance to listen to it, you know that Henry and I spoke with James, Elym, Issa, Matt, Mikey, Mira, Sam, and Shattah, follow them all on Twitter. You can find their handles in the description. And it was a terrific discussion, really a roundtable that flowed very naturally. I felt so at home with this amazing group of comrades and activists whom I hadn't met before, actually. Moreover, they had so many insights not only on why political education and historical understanding are important, but how both of those inform our movements and what kind of history and education we really need. It was a fascinating discussion.

And here, in part two, the group took listener questions. We didn't really want it to end. It was so enjoyable and informative and interesting. If you want to listen to the whole discussion in one go or would like to support the podcast, you can find it on our page. site, patreon.com slash gorilla history, two R's, two L's. You can also follow the podcast on Twitter at Gorilla underscore Pod. Again, two R's and two L's. And do stay tuned for a future panel on Twitter space in the near future. Solidarity. I hope you enjoy this conversation. You remember Den Ben-Brew?

No! The same thing happened in Algeria, in Africa. They didn't have anything but a rank. The French had all these highly mechanized instruments of warfare. But they put some guerrilla action on. Yeah, really, really tremendous. And it's been a great space so far. And I think now we should turn to some listener questions.

The first group that I have pulled up here into the speakers is our friends from Horn of Africa leftists, which is a great group. Everybody should be checking them out as it is. But hello, Horn of Africa leftists. Welcome to the Twitter space. What do you have to add to the conversation? Yeah, thank you very much for the organizers, the panelists. Very insightful. I think everyone had different contexts and a lesson learned on pushing political education.

It's something I just want to pretty much add on to the question of, you know, I think everyone has different experience, different contexts of why they use political education, different agenda for their coaching their struggling. So the question for the panelists, you know, I think there's various points that are made and that's something that resonate with us is the, you know, I think the danger of ultra-leftism in your effort to educate the community, you know, revive interest in socialism. The one of Africa region, you know, has been dealt the damage of, you know, the defeat of the Soviet Union and various efforts during, you know, after 91, which led to, you know, a red-baited conversation about what is communism due to the dark regime. So there's this perception and like idea of what is communism and it's kind of, you know, based on a red baited propaganda.

So we're struggling. We're starting from the beginning from the grounds up. I'm not talking about the people online. I'm talking about people offline. So the question is, how do you deal with the ultra left tendencies that you see online? When I say ultra left tendencies, the idea that's first world. view of, you know, teenagers, Gen Z, millennials, older people who are stuck in the first world mindset of, I'm an MLM, I'm an, or anarchist or trots on anarchist or, you know, these branding identity that we see on Twitter are very popular, but they're very divisive and when you're trying to pretty much revive interest in socialism, especially for the Horn of Africa region. So we had this infection of imported old, obsolete debates that really has no reflection

on the region's current struggle, which is, you know, the primary contradiction of imperialism and the horn of Africa. So how do you deal this idea of ultra-left tendencies that can really do harm to reviving a united front line and interest in socialism through political education? That's my first question. Second question is that we are seeing like a tendency of people who are affiliated with amnesty international or human rights watch or you know pro state department academics who co-offed left spaces and squeeze in these type of propaganda that are easily digestible to first-war leftists you know using co-opter language and phrases so it's very challenging for people from outside to navigate around the Horn of Africa region so

how do you deal with these co-optation, also the ultra-left tendencies? Thank you very much. Well, I'll definitely let the panel have their say because I'm sure people care much more about what they than what I have to say. I will just make one quick point on that latter comment about basically the NGOification of activism and organizing. I mean, it certainly is a big problem, something that we have to confront, something that we have to think about how to deal with that.

And there's one thing that I think that we need to do, which is to not just discredit people because they had some past affiliation with some group. We have to keep in mind that people do have ideological growth over time. Having somebody who worked for Raytheon for 20 years advocating for something is not the same thing as having somebody who did an internship at Amnesty International when they were 21 years old, fresh out of university, and has had 10 years of personal and ideological growth since. then. We need to take a case-by-case basis and understand where is this person coming from, what are their end goals, how are they interacting with others within that movement, within that struggle. And by doing that on an individual basis, we can understand whether this person has transformed themselves and become somebody that can be active within the community and in the struggle that we're trying to build. Rather than just saying, you know, oh, this person

20 years ago, you know, spent their summer at Human Rights Watch and I don't like human rights watch and therefore we have to shut them out from our community. I think that that would be a mistake. It would be turning a lot of people who could be very genuine and committed comrades away from organizing with us if we have these like absolute purity tests. It is very important that we weed out these, you know, NGO-fied infiltrators, as it were, because it is a really, really big problem and something that we've seen many times. But I think that we have to be careful to be guarding against being a little bit too dogmatic in this. We have to really vet the people properly rather than just shut them out entirely. But as for the ideological question,

I have my own thoughts on that, but I want to make sure that the panelists have their say, because, again, I'm sure everybody rather would hear from that than me. I don't know if I have an answer so much as a question. I'm curious what others have experienced in terms of like ultra-leftism or left-wing communism as an issue kind of bleeding into IRL organizing,

because I feel like it is mostly a uniquely online problem and that at least, at least in my personal experience, like, we don't even have the luxury of having like interleft fights because we haven't built up like a strong enough like, you know, communist or left organized party in the U.S. Imperial Corps. But I'm speaking as someone, you know, in, you know, on one of the outposts of empire. No, I mean, I agree with that completely. I think, you know, from where I am as well, you know, Philly is very interesting as far as the city is concerned is there are a lot of different strains of leftist and communist thought. There's a lot of organizations. Basically every communist organization in the U.S. probably has a chapter in Philadelphia, which I think is a really unique thing and really speaks to the history of socialism in Philly. But even on the ground, there's not really any fighting. And I agree, Mikey. I think it's a, The whole kind of like leftist infighting thing, I think really centralizes itself on spaces like Twitter and other areas where people have a lot of time to kill and people have a lot of ability to really make arguments out of whatever they feel they can make. And I think in real life organizing, in organizing on the ground where I am, I've never really come across that tendency. maybe it's just a luxury of being online for people who are on a lot but on the ground I haven't experienced

a lot of intercommunal real discourse or argumentation which I think is a good thing but also I do agree with Mikey really does speak to the kind of like scale of like you know we don't have enough people right now or enough of a base built to be able to have these infighting discussions in a real capacity

but I think because in digital spaces in particular because we have this kind of mass accumulation of, like, different strains of leftist ideology that are easily accessible to one another in one singular platform, that you get, like, this large amount of intercommunal dialogue that really doesn't exist in the real world. I think a lot of arguments I've seen, I'm saying this as someone who is definitely online more than I should be, like a lot of the arguments I've seen really are arguments that I can't even imagine having had in real life if that makes sense i'll speak to that just a little bit too so i also my nine to five is i get i have the privilege of being a um uh organizer for the teachers union

here and course education happening in that realm as well all the time and while me and some of my you know colleagues have left theory back background. We're not in the classrooms or in the schools trying to get teachers to become Marxists. We're providing political education that's centered on their experiences to get them to move to action and learn about how power works through taking that action. And again, eventually maybe we'll be able to, you know, consider what Marxist education looks like. And And same with the community work that I do. Because we're not trying, we're not starting with left theory.

We're starting with people's histories. Although we bring that theory, you know, into our strategies and into some of the things that we're teaching, it's not facilitating anybody towards these online left spaces that you're talking about, that we all know what you're talking about that are just so not, you know, not a good experience for any of us, right? Not what we're trying to like move people towards. But yeah, so I mean, I think that's part of it. We're not, we're not facilitating movement towards those spaces. And of course, all political education should be moving people to action, not to Twitter. Although, you know, I mean, of course we're going to go to Twitter, but that's not the purpose.

And so I would maybe like try and find what is the thing in the process that you folks are facilitating that is sort of moving people towards those spaces. And then maybe even flat out, including in your political education, a note or a piece on these spaces, right? And kind of like what the expectation is of and the objectives of your political education that you're doing. and it's definitely not this thing. And this is why this thing is like this online thing is problematic. And so just to kind of maybe incorporate it into your political education, yeah. I'll say really quickly that something one of my fellow orgsars Yara had told me one time is that if you find yourself in a conversation about why bad times are fascists, you're not doing enough organizing because you have way too much time. If you're a part of that conversation, get offline and come back to organizing.

So I think that, like backing up what everyone else said, it is a kind of a termly online problem where you really need to log off at that point. Yeah, I think logging off is probably safe advice most of the time. Unless one of our other panelists have something that they want to throw out there on this topic from Horn of Africa leftists, I think that we should turn to the next, the next questioner. I will just encourage everybody to check out Horn of Africa leftists. They have a podcast feed.

It hasn't been updated in a while, but they do have some really useful episodes on there that I have checked out in the past. You can find that, I think probably wherever you can get your podcast. Just look for Horn of Africa leftists, and you'll find them on Twitter. You'll find their podcast. It's a really recommend for a region

that doesn't get nearly as much attention as it should. and hopefully we'll collaborate with you sometime and shed some more light on a region that we also have not focused on nearly as much as we should. So, unless panelists, unless you have something else that you want to throw out there quickly, we will turn to our next questioner, which is at Imam Biden,

which is a great Twitter handle, by the way. Thank you. I love my Twitter handle as well. The question I had kind of stems from the, conversation about political education also kind of builds on a little bit kind of like a follow-up to the last question regarding disagreements. So obviously online, we see a lot of disagreements that we can pretty much disregard when it comes to our activities organizing in the real world. But I wanted to ask sort of the panel here, when it comes to, you know, political education for the

purpose of building a unified line, you know, sort of two things happen. For one, you know, the, you know, organizers them disagree on some things. And, you know, those disagreements may manifest in like, you know, I don't want to say a disparity, but I would say like a difference in fashion or even method on how people are politically educated and what conclusions they're being led to, right? The example I wanted to give about this is regarding the BDS, the Boycott Divest and Sanction National Committee, which, you know, once upon a time was doing some really good work,

exposing, you know, a lot of, I would say, like, household names in terms of businesses and brands that were, like, you know, doing business with the Zionist entities. and, you know, who deserve to be at the very minimum boycotted. But in more recent years, unfortunately, have sort of turned into trying to, like, monopolize the Palestinian voice, suppressing criticism from the left, and even suppressing really good work from people like the mapping project in Boston, which exposes support for the Zionist entity on like the institutional level, right? So, you know, we see this, you know, this cause of organizing, the Palestinian cause, and even within that sort of like this big disagreement has developed, which is that, you know, should we stick to these organizations which seem to have deviated from the line or sort of, you know, engaged in practices that are sort of anti-grass roots in order to gain more. resources, right, or appear to be more mainstream, you know, or do we openly sponsor and foster dissent against those groups, you know, despite the fact that in the past they have done great

work. So I guess my question is, how do you all seek to strike a balance between building a unified line through political education and also fostering disagreement and encouraging leftward criticism of organizations that we have all previously maybe I'd say subscribe to or supported or something like that. Because these organizations will change. And as they gain more resources, more bureaucracy, become more embedded in the capitalist environment that we live in, you know, a lot of them seem to lose their way. So I guess, you know, disregarding the the countless online, pointless disagreements, when these real issues of the political line come up, how do you continue to build the movement rather than divide while pushing the correct line,

which in the case of Palestine is obviously no recognition of the Zionist entity? It's a one state, Palestinian state, and not suppressing criticism from Palestinians in Palestine, actually. I'll take a stab at this one. You know, being involved with the DSA International Committee, I can say that DSA itself is absolutely a slight of struggle for, you know, some of the contradictions that Imam Biden was just discussing. I think there's sort of always going to be some level of tension between the professionalization of, you know, an NGOification of left centers of power, you know, as unpowerful as they are in the whole, you know, global political economy and the more, you know, grassroots, radical elements that that might diverge from, you know, their tactics and practices.

And there are real disagreements about, you know, what it means. to be an internationalist. How do we, you know, and who do we provide solidarity to? What are acceptable tactics and resisting empire? All these things, I think, are critical questions to discuss. And I do think that, you know, actually political education can be a good venue for organizations to kind of channel that tension and those contradictions into. We recently did. We recently did, a Wretched of the Earth reading group in the IC and I think it was useful

for us internally although it was a relatively small group of I would say you know relatively like-minded people we didn't have like kind of the poles of you know more right and left tendency is necessarily super well represented in that group but being able to talk about

you know other struggles historical struggles not necessarily the ones that are in the news right now I think can be a good way of kind of bringing the conversation back to like the essential elements, the themes that, you know, weren't in the Algerian War for Independence or that might be present, you know, in the African post-colonial struggles,

that are still present today, you know, questions of the national question, questions of armed resistance, you know, and there's always going to be a tendency, I think, which we should guard against, for people that are sort of like, you know, and I don't want to say that, you know, people turning, you know, being in the left into a career to some extent is necessarily a bad thing.

But I think that there can be a tendency to kind of bow to existing power, you know, in order to have access to power, in order to maintain access to power. And that is a tendency that can undermine, you know, the radical nature of the work. that we need to do, you know, we don't want to, in my opinion, turn DSA into like a miniature version of the Democratic Party, right? We want to maintain a radical line. And so I don't know that you're going to, there's an easy road to that agreement. As far as like not alienating and

splitting, you know, I think, think like certain level of like, you know, comradly behavior and organizing spaces is important. You know, you can like a person and still really disagree with their perspectives. And to maybe, like, in my opinion, to not shy away from having these conversations to really engage people in them and find some creative ways to, you know, have these deeper ideological discussions around internationalism and around struggle. But I think we sometimes just avoid because they're too contentious. Yeah, I wanted to just hop in and say, like, I think this is where political education becomes so important, like, self-crit, self-crit, and don't, like, to kind of understand

that criticism of a position that you might hold can help your position grow, can help you strengthen your position. If you're right, you're right, and you're going to grow in, like, understanding the position that you've undertaken and why it's important and why it'll advance the struggle. And if you're not right, you learn from your comrades and that's a good thing. And being able to have those conversations without it being. And I think it does like someone earlier, it said like turn into a pissing contest, especially on like Twitter. And I'm not immune to that. And I'm sure like a lot of people are not immune to that. But just understanding that, you know, criticism is not necessarily like negative. It's not saying anything about your

character or your moral value or you as a person. It is simply, like what we need to do in order to advance the struggle and you know what we can learn from yeah i want to add something that's just interesting the term of like historical knowledge that may not be known by the people listening but like a lot so there's this organization out in the UK called palestine action that has successfully shut down a couple of arms factories and the organizers of this organization like they're small and mighty and that some of them got started with BDS and the divestment work and through engaging in that struggle for several years developed into saying, hey, we got to do more, we got to bring this struggle to the people

in a new way. And they developed studying historical protests. There's a long history of anti-imperialist struggle in which they bring the fight directly to the people supplying arms to the imperialist power. And so there's, in day, Gary, there was, I think it was the Raytheon 9 was what they were called, where they shut down a Raytheon factory, and these people are still around, they're still doing panels, and they don't necessarily have to engage them to come up with the tactics to do what they're doing against Elbit, but it's all related, right? Like, the struggle is ongoing, it's long, it's, there's a deep history. And through engaging in it and coming to the conclusion that, hey, maybe we have to escalate this in a new fashion or change tactics, some tactics. tactics might be good at some times, and some tactics become tired over time. So in regards to divestment, I think it's interesting also that the sunrise organization started very similarly as a divestment group before they were sunrise. A lot of the organizers of sunrise were part of divestment stuff around climate, trying to divest

from the oil and gas industry, and they came up to the conclusion that they had to escalate and change their tactics. Whether or not you agree or disagree with any of these organizations, I just highlighted it to show that the same organizers may come and go from different organizations and organizations may completely change and metamorphosize into totally different vehicles of different tactics. And when we see an organization that might have made positive contributions in the past towing a reactionary line, being critical of that and using that as a way of the conflict with that, what we would call it, incorrect line or reactionary line. line for more people to understand and break down and raise the consciousness collectively, I think those are key moments where we can interject and help get more people to engage in the struggle materially and try to fight back the what some people

have said, like the NGOfication of it or the professionalization of it where a lot of these like we talk about non-profits not to go too deep into it but like the whole of the nonprofit industry exists as a tax dodging business right like so it's not something we have to hide or talk about like that what it is and it's not to say there aren't non-profits doing quality work but it's to talk about how the entire structure of it works and so yeah not to an organization that does quality work once or a handful of times is not uh is not free from criticism if they are towing a reactionary line in the future. And finding ways to have quality criticism.

Obviously, Twitter isn't the best place for it. It could be a gateway for people. But, yeah, I think when we engage in quality criticism of organizations and use it to engage to uplift tactics that we want people to politically emulate, I think that's a quality use of this tool. And I'll leave it at that to someone else on the panel. I'll just quickly throw in there that you mentioned Palestine Action. This is a group that's doing some really incredible things, as you mentioned, and a group that we've had contact with and we are planning on bringing on to the show. So listeners, if you're interested in hearing from representatives of Palestine Action, that is something that we have in the works as of now.

So stay tuned for that. If you don't already subscribe to guerrilla history, come on, what are you doing? What are you doing here if you don't subscribe to guerrilla history? Anyway, panelists, if there's anybody else that wants to jump in on that question quickly, otherwise we'll take some of the written questions now. Sorry, could I just say one last thing? I'm going to remove myself from the list, but before I leave, I just want it. So for those of you who are engaged in organizing on the ground for Palestine, do check out just a collective. I shared my favorite post of theirs on the Jumbotron, talking specifically about the criticism. of the BDS National Committee.

So in terms of like politicalizing on the ground, sort of guiding people towards the right path, you know, just a really good resource. And I just wanted to give them a shout out for I. Thanks everybody for answering my question. Yeah, excellent. Panelist, anybody else want to take a crack at that real?

Should we hop into the written questions now? Okay. In that case, then, let me just go to some of the written questions. And seeing as we've gone for over time, two hours already and you know we'll have to upload this to the uh the podcast feed uh relatively soon and it's after midnight here in kazan russia i think we should try to be somewhat brief with but that's just my personal opinion so let's see what happens here uh okay one person asked if there was one work that we would recommend to somebody who was trying to get interested in act

not get involved in activism rather what would that work be for each of you so perhaps we can just quickly go around the panel everybody suggest one work uh that they would recommend people to check out if they were getting involved in activism and just briefly for me i would start off with walter rodney's grounding with my brothers which i was talking about in the chat with the panelists because i think that it really does show that as we mentioned earlier you have to meet people where they are i know multiple of our panelists had talked about that and that was exactly what Walter Rodney was doing. For those who are unaware, the groundings with my brothers is a series of lectures that he gave

that were based on conversations that he was having with just ordinary people in Jamaica. He would go out, he would meet with just normal people, he would have these conversations with them about history or political theory. And in these conversations, he would try to advance the political education of people that didn't necessarily have any sort of background in this information. but we're then able to use the information that he was giving them to understand their current struggles better. I think that that's a really good framework for us to look at, to understand that we do have to find where people are at and give them the information at that point. What is relevant for them to understand and how communicate it to them for them to understand it.

So is that work directly relevant to them on how to do activism? Yeah, I would say so, but I also think that it gives us a really important look at, the fact that we need to tailor our message to specific audiences and tailor it not only in terms of language, but in terms of content. We need to find what is really important to people at that given time. So, panelists, what would you suggest? I'm going to say, for all of us, Wretched of the Earth, 1 million percent for me. That is a must read. If you haven't, you have to read it.

And you've read it once, you have to read it again and again and again. It's such a good book. And I think it's radicalized us all from what I've learned through this panel. I'm going to go ahead and say the red deal. It's basically a political program discussing like discussing indigenous liberation as a framework for climate justice and the need for indigenous liberation broadly and like Marxist or socialist revolution. So I think it's a really interesting book with very visionary platform. I think it's definitely worth the read. Extremely accessible and really highlights, I think, the plight of indigenous people.

in Turtle Island as well as internationally and kind of draws a framework from which you as a Marxist can start like integrating indigenous liberation as a part of your political platform which I think is like really unbelievably critical for any like genuine liberation movement something worth thinking about I echoing those recommendations love rich of the earth as we've talked about but I'm going to recommend something I think very different than probably what a lot of other people are recommending I'm going to say the freedom papers by the organization the Dream Defenders because for me it was my intro to socialism and it is a surrealist, poetic policy platform that has visual mediums, short videos, but also some incredible writing. It's one of my favorite political documents I've seen produced in the United States.

So that is, the Dream Defenders are an organization located in South Florida that arose following the murder of Trayvon Martin and they've been organizing for a decade now. The Freedom Papers were produced in 2018, and it is just an incredible document in regards to meeting people where they're at, communicating these ideas in a very consumable, palpable,

easy to understand way. So if you're not familiar with the Dream Defenders, I highly recommend learning about that organ and specifically looking into the Freedom Papers, which, again, is just an incredible document. So I was going to say, Retit of the Earth. but it's been said. So I will say, and, like, you may need a little background on some terms, but Lenin's,

what is to be done, I think, is just incredible, like, the main argument being that, like, workers, um, capitalism might predispose workers to accept socialism, but it doesn't make them, like, socialist. And I think that's, like, a really important thing, um, that, like, a lot of Marxists need to realize, because I think there's sometimes this idea that, like, oh, well, everyone, if you, once you have this anti-establishment, narrative you're going to become a Marxist but no we see that a lot of the time that's not the case and I think that while there are like some terms that are like you might need to like look into I think

it's like a fairly accessible enough text to get into if you're thinking about um that kind of stuff oh I want to recommend uh since we all recommend wretch of the earth I also want to say discourse on colonialism is one of the first things I like to hand people as it's like part of the text that inspired Wretch of the Earth and has probably the hardest opening of any book I've ever read. So the first three lines are incredible, perfect, highly recommend it's accessible, PDF everywhere. And it is a good first read, I feel like, for people getting into the history of colonialism and understanding it. I'm going to, you know, obviously say Ratchet of the Earth as well because that book was so formative to my own political development. and I hadn't read it since college,

so it was really interesting to reread it again. Another book by Walter Rodney that I think everyone should read is how Europe underdeveloped Africa. I think it's really important for people to understand the current shape of the modern political economy is a direct continuation from the systems of exploitation set up under colonialism, and that that was really the engine that drove, you know,

the industrial and capitalist development of Europe and why it continues to, you know, enjoy outsized power and wealth compared, you know, in the United States to being an outpost of Europe in the present world. And Rodney's work there is really incredible. So I would highly recommend that book as well. I would, I'm going to recommend some non-written materials just because there's really no excuse not to read things. Read theory, however you can, even if it's listening to an audio book or a podcast or watching a video because we all learn differently. And I would say, well, it was really instructive for me coming into kind of my own political development was Kwame Terre's videos, but particularly mobilization versus organization, which helped me to develop a much clearer understanding, not only like, what is to be done, but how it is to be done and the difference between, you know,

what we're encouraged to do as far as activism and what's actually required of us to build toward revolution. And I think, you know, Cormit to raise videos and lectures and, you know, parenti, particularly the yellow perentee video, they're kind of masterclasses and how to be normal and how to like talk to people and how to kind of like, uh, synthesize and distill really complex concepts into really digestible and understandable and applicable ways to just regular people who haven't done that reading yet, right? And I guess one reading I can recommend is that was really formative for my political radicalization was, is Lenin's state in revolution?

well I'll just pop in here also with a non-written suggestion listen to revolutionary left radio I think it's such a great resource and the red menace podcast that Brad Radochet does just to mention discourse on colonialism the author Amy Cesar so if you're looking it up look for him and I agree with Matt absolutely stunning opening I would have of course wanted to say a wretched of the earth. So all I'll say about that is do read the whole thing. If you're going to read it, though. A lot of people just sort of read that first on violence and then don't see the pitfalls. And I think accounts of, you know, mental disorders under colonialism. So fascinating, important for us to understand, you know, what happens to us under the violence of colonialism. So, but, you know, since I got to come up with, and, uh, uh, uh, A suggestion. I'll say for this time, the Cochabamba documents. So people's agreement on climate change and the rights of Mother Earth, the Indigenous People's Declaration, Mother Earth can live without us, but we can't live without her, and the Universal Declaration on the Rights of Mother Earth. I think that'll connect with people who are interested in the climate catastrophe and environmental organizing, but do so from a much more radical perspective. So that's what I would offer to people to check out. All great suggestions. I see we have one more person who was supposed to be on our

panel but was not able to join us at the beginning, but is here now. So why don't we have you introduce yourself to the listeners who I'm sure most of them already know who you are, but you might as well just tell them who you are and your book recommendation. Hi, everyone. My name is Issa. I missed the earlier parts of the space because I had a medical emergency this morning. I just had like a really nasty fall or whatever. It's good now because I'll be fine. As for recommendations, I would tell people to read on practice by Mao Zetong. I think that this is a very simple work, but it has a lot of rereading abilities. I also just think that it's something that a lot of people tend to take for granted

because of the way that Mao writes and presents himself as kind of like a non-complicated figure. Other works that I would recommend would just be like the basics. you know, like when Lenin talks about like democratic centralism in the party, just really simple stuff like that. I can't see too much because my jaw is really swollen, but that's just what I wanted to add in here.

Thank you very much, Issa, for coming in. I really hope that your jaw feels better very soon, and we were all very, very sad that you weren't able to join us at the beginning, but don't worry. As we mentioned in the panel chat, we will be reconvening at some point in the future. So listeners, if you enjoyed the conversation here, we will be coming back with a few more additions to the panel that either weren't able to make it today or some other people that we would like to bring into the

mix. So fear not if you feel like you haven't gotten as much out of the conversation yet as you would have liked to. There will be more coming. Now, let's take two more quick. questions from the comments and then we can wrap this up because I have work not that long from now. So we'll have to wrap up relatively soon. But we had another really interesting question come in coming from Comrade Schmael who said in having these important discussions with people after building report and gains us on various issues, taking action, etc. How can we do what is to be done and start injecting class consciousness and Marxist thought into our discourse. So I'll turn that over to all of you now. Sorry, well, that's the question again? Yeah, sure. I'll get it back up.

It's in having these important discussions with people after building report and gaining consensus on various issues, taking action, et cetera, how do we do what is to be done and start injecting class consciousness and Marxist thought into our discourse? Dang. Well, hopefully someone else takes this up. But I think it's at least for now with, I can only speak for myself in my organizing is like kind of a case-by-case basis where, you know, you have to kind of like feel out based on conversations and engaging your level of trust and understanding with a certain person that you're organizing with in terms of, you know, how you're one of. on one conversation, you know, if they're seeing, you know, your, um, your spicier posts about, you know, revolution or, or, you know, having conversations that start to lean toward that, like, whether they're ready for that type of political education. And, uh, in, in one of the groups that I'm a part of, uh, we've actually been kind of like starting a political ed

component. And yeah, it's, uh, it's kind of a tricky thing because you, want to bring in people who aren't already true believers, right, who you are organizing with. But, yeah, it's kind of a careful tight rope to have to walk because you can, you can lose people if you try to bring them in too soon. And yeah, I guess that's kind of part of like meeting people where they're at is constantly being and saying, are they ready to hear this? Are they, are they ready, you know, are they already starting to say some of this themselves? And they just need, like, a theoretical foundation for it. And I think definitely, like, once they're there, like, that's definitely a place to

start engaging in that discourse directly. On, like, the party or organizational level, though, I don't have any frame of reference for that, personally. Yeah, so, as everyone knows, because I never shut up about it, I'm a bartender. And so every day, I'm, like, working with a bunch of different people who are obviously, like working class people proletariat people um and you know it's when i i just try to talk to them about like okay like isn't it kind of like fucked up that we're here getting paid six dollars an hour and we're making all this money for you know the people the owners of this restaurant and we don't

get to see any of that that we're working 14 hours and we don't get a break and we're told that if we ask for a break we're like you know disrespectful or like you know we don't care about the business but what are we getting from this business? My boss doesn't even mandate that people tip me and doesn't pay me a fair wage. So my boss doesn't care about my well-being. So why should we care about theirs? I think that's like where I enter. And I, and you know, build relationships with people, like talk to people, be friendly with people. I talk to, you know, random people about like my cats and it turns into stuff about communism because I, you know, can't shut up about it. And just like, you know, and also I think another element to it is that,

providing for people, providing for your community. So when I was going around like tenant organizing, like these people don't care who, what the political orientation of the people that are helping them is. They care that they're being helped. And once they're helped, they'll look and say, oh, these are communists helping me. Well, I thought communists were really bad people. Like, that's interesting because all the people who are, you know, have been lauded and uplifted in this, in society weren't the ones helping me, but these people came and help me. So providing for your community, building relationships in your community, building relationships with your coworkers. That's all, like, instrumental. And these people will listen to you. Like, I have friends

that I've worked with that asked me for my, my text, that asked me to bring texts to them because they're interested because of conversations we've had. And these are fairly, like, apolitical people. So just build relationships with people and, you know, provide for your community. And build relationships in your community. Talk to your neighbors. Like, holy shit, talk to your neighbors. It's really cool. You can learn a lot from people. No, I completely agree. Like, building off of that, too, like, especially with the whole, like, just having, like, in-depth discussions, like, whenever you can with people who are who trust your opinion and who you work with and are friends with and just kind of, like, letting that occur, like, organically is so unbelievably useful. I can't tell you the amount of people who I've, I've known from college, who were just fairly apolitical friends of mine who, you know, I had one who a week ago was in my comment section suggesting I read Prashad. And I had never in my life talked politics with him really at all beyond, like, Cindy Colonial.

you'll stop early. Like, I think it's really fascinating, too. It's really fascinating to really, like, see those friendships flourish and see people's knowledge get engaged. Like, I know people who I've suggested, like, the podcast blowback to who come out of that just railing against U.S. Empire, who are people who are otherwise fairly apolitical. It's meeting people where their interests lie, meeting people where they're able to, I think, understand and exact issues.

Like, you can have a really firm understanding. standing in grasp with like every issue or not really every issue. None of us can, but, you know, what I mean. But you can't, like, disseminate that in maybe an overly academic way to a lot of people or really attack them with this information before they're ready or outside of their interest level, right? It's building solidarity and building education based on either experience or on mutual struggle. Something that I think is really useful is, you know, like we just said, you know, talking with

people who I'm working with who are saying, you know, it's a shame that we aren't getting paid more looking at like the profit margins that are being put up, right? You know, I've had conversations with workers and seen people kind of start union efforts on their own based off conversations where they're saying, yeah, I really don't understand why people can't like wear masks in a store, right? Like things like that I can really turn into really effective messaging. Something I always also will say based on my tenant organizing like friends is everybody hates their landlord. that's a great start anywhere just as a kind of a broad starting point there is not a soul on this planet who on some degree has not been screwed by their landlord and that is a really good intro

point for discussing like you know exploitation like landed classes this idea of you know of property ownership etc and you can relate that to things that people don't like you know like oh wow this person just had their rent raised $200 and can't afford to pay for basic necessities it's like well one, help them because that's just the good thing to do, but also like contextualizing that for them while you're assisting. I know the YCL here in Philly to end this ramble, you know, they do a lot of food distribution programs and resource distribution and a lot of that isn't necessarily entirely geared towards, you know, radicalization efforts or education, but a lot of it you just have people who are getting food from us or getting, you know, shirts or getting, you know,

clothing and what have you. And, you know, they'll ask like, you know, what are you guys doing, what do you represent? And you'd be amazed the amount of people on the street who are really willing to listen to your little spiel, who are willing to listen about communism or socialist planning when you're the person giving them food and Narcan and materials. And we're not doing that purely because we want to, you know, elicit those conversations. It's just because that's what you should be doing as a socialist

is ensuring your communities are surviving under capitalism. But, you know, these conversations flow. And people are willing to trust those who are putting work into their communities. And it's something that should be, you know, really noted is the more work you put into your community, the more, you know, you're helping alleviate material constraints, the more people are going to be willing to, like, listen to you. Even if they, like, have Red Scare propaganda, they're going to say, well, I might not agree with communism, but they're sure shit that people that are feeding me at the end of the day on Fridays, right? Like, that's a big deal

and that really significant thing that you have to consider as an organizer in any major area. One thing I'll add in quick is that I think that it's also important that we understand that people are not coming from the same perspective that we are. We have to, I mean, we've said this many times. We have to meet them where they are. But I find that there's two different tendencies and both are problematic in their own ways. I mean, there's more than two tendencies. But these specific two tendencies are problematic. One is that we see individuals that we want to, that they're members of our community. We want to bring them into our struggle with us. But we try to bring in all of, you know, know, all of the issues that we care about all at once when these people have, I don't want to say no initiation, but I think you know what I'm driving at. Like, these people don't have the prior knowledge. They don't have the prior interest in all of these different topics. And we try to push everything on them all at once. And in many times, when we do this, we end up pushing them away. They end up saying, like, oh, this person's a radical. Like, you know, these communists are

totally crazy. I can't, you know, I can't, can't go along with, you know, this and that part of what they're saying, so I'm not going to organize with them at all. That's one issue. There's another group then that also says, like, okay, well, if they have one thing in common with us, we will organize with them no matter what. Like, there's been this discourse, Twitter, which I have been avoiding as much as I can. But, you know, communists should be actively working with mega people. like okay many mega individuals come from a similar class that we communists come from but directly trying to organize with them is probably not the best thing to do because we don't have the same ideological foundation that is also not to say that we shouldn't try to engage with them on a case-by-case basis I say this because some of the most fulfilling conversations that I had were when I was working a manual labor job which I mean like totally wrecked my back. It was not an easy job. I was fixing roads on the work crews that were, you know, doing the sewers and fixing everything for the city. Only one person on the entire

work crew, and there was a lot of us, had college education. The rest were not college educated. They were unionized, but I come from a Republican plus 28 district. So the vast majority of them were very, very conservative. But over the course of several years with them, the Congress that we had ended up being really, really fruitful because you can find issues that these individuals care about. I was not trying to push communism on these people. I was not trying to convert them into Marxist-Leninists overnight. I was finding issues that they cared about and talking about these specific issues with them until we had a similar viewpoint. You know, you can mold people's opinions of things that they hadn't previously thought about in specific

ways like that. And then once you have them on the same ideological footing as on a specific issue, then it might be time to bring up another issue that perhaps they have some passing interest in. And like that, brick by brick, case by case, you start building these foundations of solidarity with individuals who may not come from the same ideological standing as you. But you start also building these relationships with these individuals where they might not say, you know, of hand, this person's a communist, I can't work. They start saying, oh, yeah, that's Henry. I like Henry. I have conversations with Henry eight hours a day, 40 hours a week. Well, we're shoveling garbage or, you know, cleaning up the deer crap. This is a specific example. Shoveling the deer

crap from the city park or, you know, fixing the sewer lines or fixing the roads. Like, yeah, terrible job, but we have great conversations. Sometimes we don't agree. Sometimes we do agree, but over time, we end up agreeing on a lot of things. And in this way, this is how our narrative to people that otherwise would have been turned away. And with also not just trying to co-op the movement of reactionaries that, you know, they've coalesced around one thing. And we say, hey, we've got something in common with them. Let's just band forces together right now.

Because this is also, in my opinion. And, you know, if you want to yell at me, yell at me on my personal Twitter account at Huck, 1995. you don't this is not the opinion of guerrilla history as a as a show but i don't find that to be a very fruitful method for trying to advance a struggle with uh something of a coherent end goal in mind anybody else want to add anything on this topic should we go to the last question for today i yeah i'd love to add just one point uh that has meant a lot to me it's just about like that whole idea that don't really know what someone where someone is coming from or what they believe until you create the space for people that be honest or truthful about where they're coming from, what they think. And that requires a relationship. It requires... A mentor of mine has said conflict is one of the greatest forms of intimacy.

And the way that we're taught to go about conflict in a U.S. or Western perspective is like the Westy debate bro brain of like people versus people instead of us versus the problem. And when you're able to have those relationships with organizers or just casual people who are upset or agitated around a certain problem, you're able to approach it as us versus the problem and facilitate that conversation around how do we actually take in all the context? What are people missing? What are people ignoring? People remember that ideology is about what someone believes or what someone will defend. But it's also about what people are leaving out.

And when people are coming from a different ideological frame as you, what they're leaving out is just as important as what they're saying and paying attention to what they're not paying attention to and facilitating those conversations towards what got you to agree or think along these lines. It's so important because, like I said, you've no idea what someone's waiting to hear. You've no idea what the example or the idea or the idea or the thought that has never even come in front of them because, of the weight of all of these different right-wing fascist propaganda machines that prevent us from discussing these things in a critical way or trying to get closer to the actual solution. And so you'd be really surprised what actually gets through to certain people when you get them on the right problem or the right circumstance or conversation.

And yeah, just finding those entry points with people is so important because everyone's upset about something, find out what the people you care about are upset about, what's frustrating them, where are they in the struggle, and how can you get them more oriented towards action? And when people are oriented towards action, then that's when theory becomes a tool that is so important. I guess one or a couple things I just want to add to this discussion is kind of like this this notion that like we definitely want to get enough people in the class consciousness and the limited time frame that we have to achieve you know socialist revolution because we know that the only alternative is barber right but also operating within the limitations of where most people are currently at because of uh capitalist pedagogy and and you know complete indoctrination from from birth in every aspect of culture and media and uh I think for a lot of us, at least speaking for myself, but probably not alone,

like we're kind of like building the bus as we're driving it. And, you know, like, we all know where we need to go, but like figuring out like what parts we're missing and how exactly we get there is kind of like still in discussion as we're building. And we have no choice but to build because, you know, we need to have something, you know. And I think there's these kind of like two sides that are kind of like equally unproductive, I would say like, one is like this kind of like tailism where it's like, oh, the masses actually know better in every respect of what to do

and we should just, you know, follow their lead and just provide, you know, material support regardless of their ideology or this kind of like right wing tailism, what you're saying right now, which is, you know, like I mentioned before, appealing to the most reactionary tendencies with, you know, the promise of like radicalizing them into communism through mega politics. at some point in the future. And I think there's like on the other side of it is kind of this like armchair revolutionary criticism where it's like everyone who's doing any type of work

in community is doing it wrong because they're not immediately building towards, you know, communism, right? Or, you know, trying to get people immediately into class consciousness. And the problem with that is like, like all the things that people have mentioned is like the vast majority of people who are like

talking this way and just just critiquing all the work that everyone else is doing, they're not actually in community with anyone, you know? So it's like, you can't even expect people to, you know, be engaged in a type of political ed campaign

or group if they don't trust you with even like any like a superficial conversation, right? So it's like you really have to do like it's like parenting or friendship or a relationship. Like most of it is about showing up, right? And like,

Like, Sam said, you know, when people see you showing up in solidarity with their struggle, like, that's when they're ready to hear, you know, revolutionary theory or, you know, discover, you know, their way into class consciousness. But without that level of trust, without actually being in community with people, you can't actually build, you know, a movement as a class. Well, let's turn to the – oh, go ahead. I just go add one more thing to what Mikey just said because, yeah, how, like, we all, like, when you are in this context, like, we feel so much alienation and isolation because of everything that when, when you actually, like, listen to someone, there's so much in that and, like, showing someone, like, provide, like, people don't feel that kind of dignity on a day-to-day basis. So when you're able to provide that for someone, uh, that isn't used to it and actually having what they are saying, thought out and, like, like, not, obviously, like, not jumping down their throat to correct whatever reactionary point of view they're going, they might have in that moment. But, like, actually, like, sort of holding their hand through the process can go a really long way. And I've just seen so many people go from, because they wake up to that this isn't the answer, what they've been sold isn't the answer.

But the undercurrent of nihilism prevents them from getting, or the undercurrent of the red scare and things prevent them from getting to the answers. they're seeking and so facilitating that process through both listening healthy conflict can go a really long way well we're going to turn to the last question now one because it's super early in the morning here two my phone is going to die soon and three because this is going to be going to be going to be a beast to edit and get up on the podcast feed so this last question it's a little bit of a fun question and one that I'm just curious of how everybody will answer. I know that the answer could go for a very, very long time, but we'll try to see what we can do. This individual whose Twitter handle is at Tao Phi Pi says, suppose you're in a stadium. This is a hypothetical

question. Suppose you're in some stadium and have in front of you 20,000 people who have already read all the history, know the theories inside out, and are ready to work towards a better world with you today. They've asked you to kick things off. What would you say to them? I ask that because I think we're already at a point. I might not be, we might not all be collected in a stadium, but we're all reachable via the internet. Would hear the call if the right call went out. So very curious of what you have to say on that, because I, you know, I'm skeptical. honestly don't know how to answer this question because like if if there's 20,000 people in a stadium who have all done the reading like I don't know if there's anything that really needs to be said at that point you're just we should just be handing out right I don't know like I'm sorry I'm just hypothetically parody non actionable but like yeah I just I feel like if we're all on that same page organized where you can get 20,000 revolutionaries in a stadium I think the time for talk is over Yeah, I'm not going to lie.

Sorry, don't you think of... I would like to say to anyone who is listening, who may be a part of any American three-letter agency that I 100% do not back or endorse that message in any significant way. I think that political violence is something that should be shunned. I am 100% a believer in civility. I don't think that violence ever gets anything accomplished, and I completely would like to, you know,

set myself aside from the more extreme bent of the political spectrum. Thank you. Slash as. No. Well, I will add that for listeners who haven't listened to our episode with Comrade Joma, Jose Maria Sisson, founding chairman of the Communist Party of the Philippines. First of all, it's an excellent episode. You should go back on our podcast feed and listen to that.

really an incredible individual with an incredible message, even at the age that he's still at trying to put his message out there. But when we asked him the question, I believe Brett asked him the question, what can comrades from the global north do to assist the Philippine struggle? And in the context of the Philippine struggle, I mean, they do have thousands and thousands of comrades that have done the reading, have the understanding, and are willing to take action. And again, Comrade Joma said this was completely hypothetical, so any, you know, our resident NSA analysts sent it to this, I will say, he did say it was a hypothetical suggestion that individuals in global North countries like the United States should consider hypothetically sending either

weaponry or using their technological knowledge, their engineering knowledge to give those, give that information and that material to the comrades that are active in struggle in places like the Philippines to aid in their struggle. Again, hypothetically. So, you know, if you're an American with 200 guns and you have intimate knowledge of how advanced weapon systems work, hypothetically speaking, Comrade Joma said that hypothetically, you could transmit that hypothetically to, you know, the new people's army in the Philippines, hypothetically speaking. Yeah, completely just like, you know, we, again, you know, I would not endorse or suggest that anyone give weaponry to, you know, this group. Hypothetically, if you would like to,

the only bit of suggestion that I could give is that, you know, you are fully of, of what you're doing, and so that you are able to take whatever possible consequences come from you, hypothetically, you know, engaging in this behavior. Hypotheticals aside, does anybody else on the panel have any last thoughts on this question, or should we go into wrapping this up? Okay, on that, I guess we will close this space before my phone dies. It's got like 3% battery left. Adnan, since you're my co-host, why don't you tell the listeners who perhaps are listening to this as a recording where they can find you on Twitter and tell them about an episode of the Mudge List, which I think came out yesterday and I'm about halfway through it.

Yeah, that's right. Thanks. First, I just want to express, you know, my appreciation for all of our speakers and for listeners and the great questions and the incredibly. on point and rich discussion and dialogue we've had here so I just am really glad that we've done this and I hope to speak with more of you again

and find other ways to work together to collaborate and you know so let's look out for opportunities like that in the future. If you want to follow me you can follow me on Twitter at Adnan A-Husain-H-U-S-A-I-N you can listen to my other podcast. The M-A-J-L-I-S, mostly on Middle East Islamic World, Muslim Diasporic Experience. It's an interdisciplinary sort of podcast. We do a lot on Islamophobia, and we have an Islamophobia sort of series coming up. But I just recently had a discussion with a former PhD student of mine, brilliant person. Muhammad Abdu, who's just published a book,

Islam and anarchism, relationships and residences, and it's a very stimulating, provocative, challenging read. You know, it's got a lot to say, and I thought we had an interesting conversation scratching the surface of his work. So do check out the episode of The Mudgellus and follow up and read his work and engage with that. Thanks again, everyone. This has been really brilliant. I really appreciate everybody's

remarks and contributions and a great feeling established here, I think, in this Twitter space. It's been really fun and interesting conversation. Yeah, absolutely. I highly recommend the listeners check out that episode of the Mudge List. It's super interesting so far, and Dr. Updu is also a fascinating individual, somebody that I would really like to have the opportunity to talk to sometime. Now, panelists, I'm just going to call your name, tell the listeners how they can find you on Twitter. Just tell them your Twitter handle or whatever. That way, in case they're just listening to this on the podcast feed, they'll be able to look you up. And listeners, I will also include links to all of our panelists in the description box below the podcast

episode. So if you're listening to this and you want to check out their Twitter feeds, which you should, they're all excellent people and guerrilla history listeners like you, you should do. You should do you should do that so uh matt why don't you tell the listeners how they can find you hi my at is m a t t x r ed on twitter matt dutch my name on everything else uh you can tap in to the organizing work i'm a part of by getting involved with progressive international and dream defenders excellent uh sammy how do you how can the listeners follow you sorry my phone first for a second um it's at zuko's mama that's z you k os m a m a matre de los gatos um and yeah you can come follow me i talk a lot of shit about bartending and communism two very important uh isa how can the listeners find you yeah um you can find me on twitter at uh

End sanctions. I completely oppose sanctioning foreign countries. That's END. I'm pretty sure you know how to spell sanctions if you're on the guerrilla history. If you're listening to the podcast, I mostly talk about the sex trade. I talk about communism. And when I'm not talking about these two things, I am probably engaging in a pointless argument that could probably be better spent, like, I don't know, reading the Bible or the Quran. But, you know, Twitter is God. God's greatest gift to procrastinators, so I take it in stride. Yeah, you mentioned sanctions, I will just mention that. Also, of course, the post-sanctions being in one of the most heavily sanctioned countries in the world right now, but also guerrilla history is currently running a series on sanctions as war. We've already released the introduction of that series. It was an episode with Professor Emmanuel Ness, who I know is a fan favorite, as well

as Professor Stuart Davis, who is a listener of guerrilla history himself. and also a great comrade Negreler. That introduction came out a few weeks ago. Really, really interesting talking about sanctions from a conceptual basis. And our next episode, which should be coming out on Friday, this upcoming Friday, is going to be a part of that series. It's going to be the sanctions on Yugoslavia with Gregory Ellich. Really, really excellent episode.

So look forward to that. James, how can the listeners find you? You can find me on Twitter at Good Vibe Politique. You can find me on TikTok as well at James Gets Political. I mainly just talk about palestinistic U.S. issues. So that's kind of my big area. Also, just a usual shout out to the UC townhomes. Follow them on Twitter as well.

They're fighting gentrification in West Philly. And also shout out the Philly Young Communist League. Great. Mikey, how can the listeners find me in you? You can find me on Twitter at Cato Ok Computer. You can only understand the pun if you pronounce Catoque correctly. More importantly, please follow what's going on with Red Hill, Oahu Water Protectors on all social media platforms, OahuWP on Twitter, and also Shutdown Red Hill Mutual Aid on Twitter. if you would like to donate to the cause

to provide material support for affected family members and also to provide the resources they need to organize in their own communities, you can send some money over to our Venmo at Shutdown Red Hill Mutual Aid. Thanks so much. Great. Shetha, how can they find you? So my Twitter handle changes a lot

because I keep getting doxxed by Zionists, but right now it is Shedahou. or not shed that on Instagram or anywhere else. And I would say follow the Palestinian youth movement and, yeah, and liberation to all those colonized and all those oppressed by empire. And thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure, of course. Mira, how can the listeners find you? I am on Twitter at Snack Vampire, and you are all encouraged.

to apply for the DSA International Committee and come help us organize against American Empire. Great. And I will read out Comrade Aleema Long, who had to leave us a little bit ago, so she was not here for the end of the conversation, but you should definitely follow her as well. Her Twitter handle is at It's Alima, I-T-S-I-L-I-M-A. And even though Brett was not able to make it

because he's recording a Revolutionary Left radio episode right now. You should check out Brett's other work. I'll shout it out for him. So you can find everything he does, the Twitter handles, all of the episodes for the three shows he does, including guerrilla history at Revolutionary LeftRadio.com. You can find me, like I said earlier, pretty much all I do is on social media is tweet garbage.

So if you have a bit of a, I don't know, if you feel like following me, can, but it's not really the best thing in the world. It's at Huck 1995. You can, of course, follow guerrilla history, which is much more relevant than useful for you by following at Gorilla underscore pod, G-U-E-R-R-R-I-L-A underscore pod, and you can help support the show, keep us up and running because we do have operating costs, believe it or not, by going to patreon.com forward slash Gorilla history. Again, G-U-E-R-R-I-L-A history. Every dollar is highly appreciated, and you do get some bonus content there, although we're trying to do as much for free as we can. Oh, and last mention,

we have a newsletter, which you should check out. It's a gorilla.com. Again, G-U-E-R-R-R-R-I-L-A, yes, James, that's two ours. G-U-E-R-R-I-L-A-Hid.Substack.com. It's free. rounds up all of the work that Adnan, Brett and I have been doing as well as gives you reading recommendations as well as listening recommendations from the hosts of the show and former guests of the show. So check that out. And on that note, listeners, stay tuned for the next episode of guerrilla history and stay tuned for the next time that we have a Twitter space, including with this same group of people, plus a couple more hopefully. And until that time, solidarity. I'm going to be able to be. Thank you.