Guerrilla History - Reflections on Mau Mau w/ Shiraz Durrani (AR&D Ep. 4)

Episode Date: March 7, 2025

With this episode of Guerrilla History, we continue our series on African Revolutions and Decolonization with a brilliant supplement reflecting on the Mau Mau Uprising.  Here, Shiraz Durrani goes through the history and its implications of the uprising, in a really fascinating and useful conversation!  This is a brilliant companion to our previous episode in the series, The Mau Mau Uprising w/ Nicholas Mwangi, which you should also check out if you have not done so.  Be sure to share this series with comrades, we are still in the very early phases of the planned ~40 parts, so it is a great time for them to start listening in as well!   Also subscribe to our Substack (free!) to keep up to date with what we are doing.  With so many episodes coming in this series (and beyond), you won't want to miss anything, so get the updates straight to your inbox.  guerrillahistory.substack.com   Shiraz Durrani is a Kenyan writer who has written expensively on Mau Mau, as well as other aspects of Kenyan history.  You can follow him on twitter @sinahabari, and check out many of his articles here, as well as his numerous books here. Help support the show by signing up to our patreon, where you also will get bonus content: https://www.patreon.com/guerrillahistory 

Dear guerrilla history listeners, this is co-host Henry with a very small note for you before we get into this episode of guerrilla history, and specifically, this episode is part of our ongoing African revolutions and decolonization series. When we originally recorded this episode, which is an excellent episode in a really fantastic conversation, reflections on the Mau Mau Mau with Shiraz Durrani. When we originally recorded it, we were planning on this episode being our case study on the Mao Mao uprising. However, when we finished recording the episode, Adnan and I had a small conversation and we discussed the fact that while this conversation is really excellent and there's a lot to learn from it, it's more of a reflections

of the Mao Mao uprising than a case study of the Mao uprising in our estimation. As such, we recorded a second conversation, which came out two weeks ago with Nicholas Mwangi, a case study of the Maumau Uprising. If you haven't already heard that episode, we highly recommend that you go back and listen to that. It was a really fascinating case study on the Maumau Uprising. This episode is a terrific

supplement to that episode, and as such, we're releasing it as the supplemental episode within our series for the Maumau period. These two episodes go together extremely well, but this note is necessary because there are a few times throughout the episode where we refer to

the fact that this episode that you are going to be listening to is the case study on Mau Mau, and it was recorded as such. Now, again, that doesn't take anything away from the episode, and you certainly will get a lot from it. Just understand that when we originally recorded it, we were planning on it being the case study, but in actuality, it ended up being the supplemental episode. So again, do go back and listen to that episode, the case study of the Mau Mau Maui uprising with Nicholas Mwangi, which came out two weeks ago, and be sure to stay tuned for all. subsequent episodes in our series, African Revolutions and Decolonization.

Just a small reminder, these episodes are coming out every other week on the guerrilla history feed interspersed with non-series episodes. So every Friday, you will find an episode of guerrilla history. It just alternates between series episodes, African Revolutions and Decolonization episodes, and non-series episodes. So stay tuned. Be sure to subscribe to Gorilla History wherever you get your podcasts and enjoy. learn from this really terrific episode, Reflections of the Maumau with Shiraz Durrani.

You remember Den Van Booh? No! The same thing happened in Algeria, in Africa. They didn't have anything but a rank. The French had all these highly mechanized instruments of warfare. But they put some guerrilla action on. Hello and welcome to guerrilla history, the podcast that acts as a reconnaissance report of global proletarian history and aims to use the lessons of history to analyze the present.

I'm one of your co-hosts, Henry Huckimacki, joined as usual by my co-host, Professor Adnan Hussein, historian and director of the School of Religion at Queens University in Ontario, Canada. Hello, Adnan. How are you doing today? I'm doing well, Henry. It's great to be with you. Absolutely. pleasure to see you, and I know we're both really looking forward to this conversation, which is a continuation of our series on African revolutions and decolonization. But before I introduce the guests on the specific topic for this episode, I would like to remind the listeners

that they can help support the show and allow us to continue making episodes like this by going to patreon.com forward slash gorilla history. That's G-U-E-R-R-I-L-A history. And you can keep up to date with everything that Adnan and I are doing individually and collectively by following us on Twitter at Gorilla underscore Pod, again, G-U-E-R-R-I-L-A-U-L-A-U-Pod. And on Instagram, Gorilla underscore History, again, Gorilla with 2-R's underscore history. So without further ado, we're bringing on our guest Shiraz Durrani to talk about the Maumau Uprising. Shiraz Durrani is a writer from Kenya, who is based in the UK, and is the writer of numerous

books, including one that's particularly apropos to the conversation. today. Kenya's War of Independence, Mao Mao, and its legacy of resistance to colonialism and imperialism, 1948 to 1990, which came out in 2018 from Vita Books. Hello, Shiraz. It's a pleasure to have you on the program. Thank you. Yes. It's neither nice to be on the program, actually. It's definitely inviting me. Of course. And while we were familiar with some of your work previously, I also want to make sure that I shout out our friend, comrade Booker Amoli, who is a chairperson of the communist Marxist party of Kenya, recently renamed a party in Kenya.

When I reached out to Booker, I said, Booker, I've got a few people in mind who we could talk about the Maumau uprising, but I would like to know if you have any specific comrades in mind who you think would do a particularly good job of discussing this topic. And you were the first person that he brought up. So shout out to Booker for making the suggestion. As I said, Shiraz was already kind of on our short list, but it sealed the deal that we were going to reach out to you, Shiraz, and Booker did put us in touch with you. So I want to start this conversation in the way that we're going to start many of these discussions, the case study discussions within this series. And just to remind the listeners briefly, the African Revolutions and Decolonization Series that this is an episode of is going to be roughly 35 parts long, about 50, 50 case studies and more conceptual episodes and focuses on African.

scholars and thinkers. These episodes in this series will be coming out every other week. And so you can go back and listen to the previous episode that came out two weeks ago within this series or in two weeks. The next episode will come out with our more normal content in between in those other weeks. So the way that we want to start this conversation today is to talk a little bit about the historical background prior to the uprising. Of course, this is going to involve talking about how colonization took place in Kenya, the condition of colonization in Kenya as well as what kind of political movements were on the ground within Kenya as a result of these colonial practices, and particularly in the case of land dispossession,

which I know that we'll get to when we talk about the factors that led to the uprising. What I'd like to sort of say is India was not the only country which suffered. And I would like to read out a paragraph from something I've written, if that's okay. And it says, imagine this. You and your family are sitting quietly at home. Some strangers break down the door, rape, kill and sell your children, and ship them to a farther of a country. Then take over your house, steal your land, wealth and property, and start. ordering around and so on.

Now multiply your one family by millions and you see the real horror of what has been known to Africa. It is difficult to believe that a few hundred years ago almost all the people of Africa were either enslaved or colonized by people coming from Europe. Was it a nightmare or reality? What can motivate such industrial level savagery? Such atrocities are not seen even in the animal world. Abrake is still angry, very angry, still suffering,

still trying to come to tons of a genocide, still trying to recover from the damage done to the economy, industries, culture, dealing with depopulation and constant ongoing attacks. Now, that is some kind of a global setting, but if you listen to news today, you find a genocide going on in occupied Palestine. That is not different from what happened here.

In North America, what comes to USA and Canada, millions and millions of people were killed directly or indirectly, and the land was taken over. The country now is known as Western, country, where are the original people? They are a minority, they are powerless, same thing in Australia. Same thing is happening in front of our rise in Palestine. So if you're talking about Kenya at that time, it was the same situation. The British colonialism came in and started killing people, taking over their land and resources. And every night, and every night,

nationality, fought back. Unfortunately for them, these guys who were coming from Europe had superior guns and a superior god, as I like to call it, they came with Christianity. They took away the land and gave a Bible to people and said, pray you'll be okay in the next world while we take away your land and we enslave you. That happened in almost all of Africa. It happened in many countries in Asia. They tried to kill people in China with opium.

They took over India. So Kenya is not unique in that sense. But think now what would have happened to Kenya if there was no Mao? It would, the British settlers and the British government would have turned Kenya into a kind of so-called Israel. In fact, there was a plan to have to plant Israel in Uganda. So it would have been like Rhodesia. There was nothing to stop them because the British colonialism had suppressed every nationality. by killing them, by bribing them, by giving them religion and teaching them

the so-called Western culture, which was to make them subservient to the colonialists. Okay, Kenya didn't not go through what, say, America, you know, North America went through over Australia. Kenyans were not that much affected by slavery as the other parts of Africa. But imagine if there was no mom or what would have happened. Where would Kenya have been today? I have no doubt that it would have been totally colonial country with the trappings of its whole independence, which we have, but no real freedom. What was it in Kenya that brought about this resistance? First of all, of course, it was land was the key issue. And I won't go into

details about how much land was taken over and so on. But if you had liked in that story at the beginning, somebody comes and takes over your land, turns you into a kind of almost a slave, forces you to do labor on their farms. In effect, you are farming your own land, but the profit and the product goes to these foreigners. What do you do? People, of course, In order to survive, people had to go alone with that. There was no other way. Either you die or you sort of do what they're saying, and this is what many people did.

There comes a time when people say no. And the young people of that time, like the JNCs today, said that something else has to be done. The people that tried to form political organization, They had many organizations. They sent petition to London. They sent delegations. They brought recommendations to land commissions.

Nothing worked. The colonialists were not going to listen to them. So what the young people at that time said is it is time to look for a new way of trying to resolve a problem. And that is what, in a sense, the beginning of Mauro, that thought behind it. Another element that came into it was the introduction of trade unions in Kenya.

The British colonialists built a railway to make it easy for produce in Africa from interior of Kenya and Uganda to be stolen and taken away. But the railway, I think, many Africans refused to work on the railways, in those relations and so on. So what they did was they got scared labor from India,

which was a British colony, which they had siphoned of almost everything and leading to feminists there. They got technical people and others from India, from India. Now, interestingly enough, people who came from India, some of them, not all, had other experience.

Many of them were part. There was a movement called Gathar Movement Against British colonialism, what they called the British Vampire. And there was a very strong center in Kenya of Gator movement. They're trolling the trilogy of resistance to colonialism. They bring socialist ideas.

And many of these Qadharites, as they were called, went to Soviet Union and got ideology from there, socialism, communism. So that was one background all the time. The press, I written a little book called Never Be Silent on the struggle of the press. And there, this thought and practices from India when you clotted in Kenya, in the Kenyan press,

And there were many South Asians in Kenya who started talking openly about colonialism, about socialism, about getting rid of this so-called tribalism, where the Africans were at the bottom and the whites were in the top Asians were buffered in between. So they started propagating the ideological side of it. But the other side was that many Indians from that came with experience in resistance movements in India.

And one particular person was a key person in the Red Union movement. Mark and Singh was a member of the Communist Party of India. He was jailed by the British Indian government for four and a half years in India for his activities there. And then he came to Kenya. Kenyan anywhere. It turned to Kenya. She started the trade union movement. And it was this trade union movement which were others joining. And of course, there were trade unions all along. The first strike in Kenya was, I think, Malcolm Singh's own walks, talk about, I think,

1900 or something. So the strikes had been part of the struggle, of working class. The class issues in Kenya has been suppressed, as it was. The issues around ideology has been suppressed, but the strikes indicate that class consciousness was there. And people like Machen Singh came, they were joined from India by others, many others. I could mention Pio Gamma Pinto, who was assassinated of Independence,

Abu Baipatel, who was a follower of Gandhi, of Gandhi, but he did a lot of progressive work there, but there were many others. And it is the great humans that linked up with more and then created the ideological basis, created a class consciousness. That was the spark. That was the spark that made more more what it was. So I don't know if that's kind of, you know, if that's a kind of, you know, That's a very helpful overview of some of the conditions.

I think it was a very interesting point that you mentioned about the Ghadar Party and, of course, the bringing in under British colonialism of Indian labor, which, of course, they did all across their, you know, territories they controlled from the Caribbean, East Africa, you know, other places in the Indian Ocean, Southern Africa, you know, know, in the Caribbean, it was indentured labor. You're talking about a more skilled labor to work on railroads and so on. So this is something that's important to understand about the way British colonialism operated was, you know, moving labor around. But also, you know, and that that also introduced, as you were saying, some kind of class consciousness and forms of resistance

and struggle through strikes. But I'm wondering, you know, also what about perhaps we could talk a little bit more about the process by which dispossession of, you know, African peoples from the land was taking places. I understand British colonial control really starts in about 1895. And so by the time of the Mao Mao, uprising and rebellion, you know, you have about a half century of British colonial rule. Perhaps you can tell us a little bit more, since as you mentioned, land was the kind of crucial or key

issue. In some ways, what was the process by which that happened and how did they reorganize African society? I understand that by dispossessing people and pushing them off the land, they also created reserves or territories where they concentrated people in, you know, kind of waste areas where there wasn't, you know, a lot of cultivable or fertile land while taking for European colonial settlers who built, you know, big farms. And as you said, then, you know, used African labor. But maybe we could talk a little bit more about that process by which that happened. And, you know, So what was changing in Kenyan society as a result of expropriation of land by the colonial settlers and dispossession of, you know, African people?

Okay, just some facts about land. That according to the Kenya land, land, more than 65% of all Arab land in Kenya is in the hands of only 20% of the 35 million. Kenyans, and that started. I mean, there were no rules which the British colonelaries had to follow. They wanted land and they took land. The white settler assessed got hundreds of acres. I mean, their descendants still have it.

So that's another story, which may come to later. So the first thing to do is land became a commodity. Just like the earlier times in England, the enclosure movement took over land and turned land into property to sell and buy. And that process started in Kenya with that taking over of land. And in a sense, that introduced class division, the capitalism. It was the foundation on which capitalism started.

Now, you take away land and then they put tax on people. People don't have land. How do you not only survive, but how do you pay taxes? If you don't pay tax, you end up in jail or whatever. The idea was to force this now, landless people as labor,

on the plantations which they own this plantation now they become laborers on it and in the same time push them out into the cities

and urban areas where there is no they decide what jobs you do you have this depend around your neck to control your even movement you cannot move out of your town

or out of an employment without the employer saying yes, yes, you can with your never droop. With Ishael, could you explain that Kipanda a little bit, a little bit more? I don't think necessarily everybody is, and of course they've heard of the apartheid era, you know, passes and they think that was some unique new thing that the apartheid government of South Africa developed, but you're, you know, describing some kind of system by which there was control of people. people's movement, and maybe you could just give a little more detail about this Kipanda. Yeah, how it worked, right? Who had to give authority for you to be able to move and so on? And I think, Bob, I'm going to later to that is the similarities in the situation between Kenya and South Africa.

And while it's debatable, but I have a feeling that a lot of experiences from South Africa was brought in here Because there were lots of settlers from South Africa, particularly at the time when the apartheid was about to die. And Kenya was again at that time being shown to the white settlers in South Africa that, look, you can give independence to these guys, but you can manipulate them. So anyway, the Pandey was, initially literally it was a chain around your neck with a pendant

inside it was a paper and the paper said what tribe you are what's your name who's your chief the British government created this really powerful chiefs

and district commissioners which the independent so-called government continued with the process but it was a chief who could then have power over that labor if you miss me here, if you don't do your work or if you're lazy or if you decide to change your employment, the chief will be asked, this is a guy you know, and if it's so, the power

lies with the chief, but who is the chief responsible to? It's a white administration. So the control was total, and later on that company became a kind of a piece of paper. And there was among the resistance before independence. A huge amount of resistance with Harry Toku, for instance, was around the stupid Kipandai, which is like a slave being tied with chains. It was equivalent to that for a laborer. I don't know.

I don't want to go too much into it, but that was the reality. Coming back to the issue, of land, it created a kind of a class society in Kenya. The system the British used was people who they had mission schools. The graduates of schools were usually sons and daughters, mostly sons, actually, I think, of chiefs and their British control guys who were there. committed Christians.

And if you are Christians, you can get admission into your schools. If you change your name and give up your local name and get a Christian name, you stand a better chance of getting a job. So this guys who are children of those guys who educated in the church, schools, who then became the trusted, trusted Neaparas, homeguards of Britain. They were used as people who then control the African labor in town and country,

particularly in the countryside, actually. There's a strong control over where you went and what work you did and so on. So it was like a prison. And I've written a poem called a prison without walls. But I was talking at that time about after independence.

Before independence, it was total present like Gaza yesterday. It's so interesting to see that similarity between what was happening in North America, in Australia,

in Africa, and in what's happening today in occupied of Palestine. It's amazing that we have lived through that period in yesterday.

that we have not found a solution or solution of defeating this stupid system which benefits at our expense. So those homeguards were then recruited into the British Army. When it came to fighting anything, fighting Mahalo, it was, of course,

British Army and Navy, you know, the rest of it. But under those white leaders were the African, Kenya African so-called rifles. And it is these who were sent into the forest to fight Maumo. And in the sense, that it's what brought in kind of an end to the Malmo struggle. I don't know if that was the question or do we go on. Well, I'd like to dive in a little bit.

So you've been talking about some of the conditions and the factors that were leading to, including, of course, dispossession of the land. You know, we've mentioned many times on the program that many of these questions boil down essentially to control of the land and control of arable land in many cases. And as you've detailed, this dispossession of the land was quite brutal and very inequitable within Kenya. But of course, like we also see in examples like Palestine, this oppression also leads to organizing and underground organizing as well.

And in Kenya, that's no different. We have many organizations that were based on some tribal lines, some on national lines, but many of them were operating at least somewhat in the underground and we're organizing towards determining how to transition away from British colonial authority and also authority by these chiefs. You know, you mentioned these tribal chiefs that were essentially just put in place by the British and who were accountable only to the white colonial authority. it's interesting as we talk about how the Ma'amau uprising unfolded.

They were, in many cases, the first targets of the Ma'amau were these tribal chiefs. But talking about these organizations and associations, can you talk a little bit about how organization took place, what kind of lines these organizations took part on, and particularly if you can talk a little bit about the Kikuyu Central Association and then the various forms that it took over time because that will become very important as we talk about the Malmau uprising itself. The organization is an important issue.

The Kikuyu Association was formed in 1919, which is millions of years ago. So people did not just give in to say, we can't do anything. People started organizing. In 1921, a young Kikuyu Association under, with Harry Toko, 1921, East African

Association, Harry Toko again, and every nationality because nationwide organizations were not allowed. So every nationality organized its own organization like the 1921,

the Kabirino Association, 1925, Kikuyu Central Association, 1938, 13, Ucamba members Association, North Cavendro Central Association, Covierendo Taxpayers, 1939, Taita I. Hates Association, 1984, Kenya African Study Union,

that was an important one in terms of developing into kind of underground movement. Kenya African Union, 1947, is the 40 youth movement, which is the one I said, got fed up with this thing and said they need to find other ways of get rid of colonialism and then casual and mao mao now the initial although there were this nationality-based organizations they all work together behind the scenes openly they could not

or all they could do was nothing nothing changed until the underground movement started and this is where I think Ma'amau came into existence in a way. And do you only talk a bit about Malmau organization? Yeah, I'd like to hear maybe we should start with the uprising. Who were the Mao, Mao? Tell us a little bit about how that organization came into being. Maybe we should hear a little bit about the oath.

Sometimes a lot has been said about the oath, but just what that structure and organization was. And then I'd love to hear more about how the uprising started and what happened during the course of it. I think one of the things was the conditions was driving people into 14, like one of the momaw songs says, we will never be silent until we get land in our country and freedom. and that was the sort of a thinking behind what was going on there.

But the movement was underground, British, I think it started to 1948 to thereabouts. It was, in a way, the Second World War, many canyons were in the British army. When they came back, they realized that these white guys are just exploiting us. consciousness increased, and they saw other countries fighting and so on. So it was, in a sense, colonialism digging its own grave. People became more aware and more countries that they could fight. So they started talking about it. Many of them had military experience, so they were more confident in confronting the colonialism.

but they organized in secret. Now, there is an issue around class issue also. Was the Mahmoh aware of the class issue? And this is a quote from Kimati, who was the leader of Mao, who was assassinated. There's another element we can talk about how imperialism eliminates leaders to kill an organization.

But they killed him with Timothy, but Timothy said, the poor of the Mao. Now, obviously, this is a class analysis. The power of the Mao, poverty can be stopped, but not by bombs and weapons on the imperialists. He was acting in the front of the forest

when I was fighting. Only the revolutionary justice of the struggle of the poor can end poverty for Kenyans. So the way Mamma was interpreted by the British is a terrorist organization or primitive. They did not know what they were fighting for. They were just mad. They just started fighting without realizing why they are fighting.

And this is the basis of what I'm saying is poor are the mom won't. And one of the stories that said it was one of the most important revolutionary movement in the history of modern Africa, and one of the most important revolution movements to confront the British Empire. Now, that is not a simple thing. British, if you think of the most important power in the world at that time, was British.

It ruled over the seas, it ruled over the land, it controlled a quarter of one-fourth of the world, it was stealing wealth and an intellectual property from all over the world. And if this is what Mama was doing, then you don't need any further justification of what it's looked for. No.

I mean, I can sort of go on with a few points, yeah? Stop me when I, you know, it's too much. No, please continue. Okay, I don't know if this light is going to. Does the light bother you? It doesn't matter to us. We're only releasing the audio anyway. I should need some light.

Of course, whatever is comfortable for you. Just give me three seconds after I finish talking before you start, and then I can cut this audio when I edit it very easily. All right. Let's talk a few. Take a few points about Maui because it has been totally misrepresented. Particularly for the young people in Kenya, they're not taught in school.

what Marlboro was, even universities. Universities don't, I mean, this book we mentioned, King's Hall of Independence, the University Library doesn't have a copy of it until last month when Victor Books no one had a copy of that in other books. So how are people going to know what's going on? So a few points on Marmour.

The first is what and why. And I've put already a source of without, who said it, We are fighting for our lands which was stolen from Africans by the Crown in 1915. Africans were evicted from the lands and survive as cheap labor. That's what happened to people.

A land by 1945, 3,000 European settlers owned 43,000 square kilometers of the most fertile land. whereas 5.25 million Africans occupied 135 square meters of the poorest land. For MoMA, Freedom was born by the KAU militants, Kenya African Union militants, who lost faith in constitutional methods or fighting for independence, organization. Now, this is where the trade union link comes up with it.

There have been many strikes in Kenya, The Ted Union movement was very, very powerful. And after the 1950 general strike, there was rugged progress of Marlboro. The aim was to unite and mobilize people in struggle for independence and a result to armed struggle. So it was the national struggle for liberation and their working class struggle of the trade unions. So let's stop look at trade unions. Marbao was radicalized by militant leadership from trade union movement.

Transport and elite workers' union led by Fred Kobay and clerks and commercial workers' union led by Biddharqa, where the heart of the resistance. Militants of trade unions throw themselves into the revolutionary movement and established themselves as the new radical leadership committed to overthrowing colonial rule by mass action, strikes, demonstrations, and arms struggle. Kenya's trade union movement, this is a court from Machin Singh. Kenya's trade union movement has always been a part of the national struggle

for resisting British imperialist colonial rule, for winning national independence, for consolidating the independence after winning it, for bringing prosperity for workers and peoples of Kenya. We want freedom for all work. Just a point I want to make is the language. There's issues around working class, issues around resistance, around imperialism, and there is a very nice leaflet from 1950.

There's a book we were just publishing called Struggle has started. started. It is a book on, it's a quote from Mark and Singh's leaflet and it says, our worker, now this is in 1950. So people who said that they were not aware of class issues. Better look at this, just this quote in there. Originally it's at the Mark and Singh archives in Nairobi. It says the struggle between capitalists and architects started. That's the heading of that pamphlet. And he says, our worker. Your comrades, walker comrades, come forward, march ahead. If she do not march ahead today, then remember that you will be crushed under the hearth of

capitalists tomorrow. Capitalism workers should have a united stand and should stand up strongly against the capitalists so that they should not ever have the courage to attempt to exploit workers again, nor protect away worthless rights from then. It was just to point out the oil class consciousness, which came from

the trade union movement. No. I picked up these points because of the whole propaganda against them. So here, they were saying that it was a Kikuyu organization. So what I'm saying is it is a national movement,

national. And I'm again quoting from various sources. In Nairobi, this is the British government official saying it, in Nairobi the situation is grave. Ma'amau orders are carried out in the heart of the city. Mau Maui courts sit in judgment, and the sentences are carried out. The revenues collected are used for bribery and maumo supplies. We will talk about the liberated areas,

but this was part of the liberation that Ma'amah brought in. Instead of being a Kiyu movement, there are others here, like this one says, 44 Wakamba were arrested in Tanganyika, in Tanganyika, not Kenya, and returned to Kenya. So, Mauma was spreading not only in Kenya, but in Tanzania. What is going Tanzania now? MoMA cells are in Mombasa, Pembah. Zanzibah, and all over the coast.

So nothing to do only with central province. It is spread all over. In Tanzania, MoMA won over hundreds of Kenyans migrant workers, hundreds. Japan intelligence are aware of what is going on the UK. So the news was spreading within Africa. In South Africa, it is considered that there is an underground movement by the natives to also establish government throughout Africa. Well, there was some, at least the news that's been spreading around Africa.

Now, some facts that a movement, almost the movement of all people. First, I look at the trade unions. 1935, Kenya labor, Kenya Indian labor trade union. It changed to Labor Trade Union of Kenya under Mark and Singh. 1937, I were talking about before, well, no. So anyway, there's a list of trade duties at that time. There is an interesting list of general strikes, 1922, first general strike. 1937, 62 dash strike.

And I written later play on these six duties, the strike. Imagine taking workers going on strike was 60 to, days in 1937. I mean, I don't know how they did it. But even today, it's difficult to do strike even for a week. And this guy survived for 32 days because of the tactics they use and because of support they had from the community. 1940s.

Right, but you mentioned you wrote a play about this. Oh, really? Okay. A historically situated play about the worker's strike. in 1937. It's called a struggle of 62 days. Okay.

A play based on the 1936-37 strike for 25% wage rise and an eight-hour working in Africa after this track Kenya won eight-hour right to work eight hours a day. Otherwise it could go over the open. So it's a play

imagine but based on some of the things that were in history. And it wasn't just a strike. The trade unions organized in 1952 work out of buses and European beer in protest against government's repression. So it was all coming together. The strikes are going on,

work courts are going on of this settler kind of thing. Like in India, they were workouting foreign goods and so on. In terms of the movement of all people, in this book I talk about the role of women. So it's not just men sitting, women played very key role, not just as slaves or people who cooked and so on.

The Kambah nationality, the Maasai nationality, the South Asian Kenyans, and these are some facts in that Green Book. And I won't go into detail, but it talks about how women are powerful that without women's

contribution, nothing could have been achieved. Women transported food and so on, but they also fought like there were two women, one Jaya and Wangui, who were

Kenya liberation, Kenya, land, freedom, army. Women, guerrilla, leaders were sentenced to death in 1954. So they were prominently people.

Now, I think the thing was what did Maumau achieve in a sense? Mao achieved the got liberated areas. Now, one thing before I go on this. I can, I'm promoting my books, I guess. But this is an important book, which I wrote in 96, 19.

It's just for the listeners who, again, this is only audio, so Kimathi Maumau's first. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll dictate the title for the listeners in case they want to check it out. Okay. It's called Kimathi,

where K-I-M-A-T-H-I, MoMA's first prime minister of Kenya. The point is that history teaches us that Kenyatta was the first prime minister. Whereas here I'm in this little book saying it was Kimati because they had in parliament in the forest where people, our representatives came together

They have formed parliament, and that parliament elected Kimasi, and that movement then created liberated areas. So in 1952, in large parts of central province, colonial law and locales had virtually exist to exist. In 1953, parts of Kikuyu land were Mauo republics, and the greater majority of Kikuyu's were passive supporters. those in the forests were living fairly comfortably

and so successful had the Mauo movement mean that large areas of land and people had been liberated from colonial rule these included not only liberated forests forest bases

there were semi-liberated rural areas in the secular farms and in the reserves they were liberated in a semi-liberated areas in Nairobi itself. Large part of the city of Nairobi

were under the rule of Karela forces. So, this is the British Army, Navy, Air Force, whatever, coming in. And these are guys liberating countries not their nose. It was not going to be

autoes happening in the liberated territories was Mauo infrastructure. And a few examples of that. Reports received revealed a large number of hideouts found in the forest. Some considerable size and many were

carefully constructed. One consisted of four huts for 80 men and with the piate water supply from a water for 30 yards away. So this case, you know, the forest is not hiding from the other enemy, but constructing a life there. And the Army Patrol discovered a 40 bid Maumau Hospital

with complete medical kids. It was five miles east of Mount Kenang. So they were sitting up a huge hospitals, which even today can never, it doesn't have that many hospitals. On the arcts of Nairobi, Kiko Yoghards and men of the

Kenya regiment kill four fighters, destroyed a Mau Mau Hospital, furnished with a supply of medicine and food, and so on. Security forces found in They were the forest a deserted hospital which had been evacuated a few days before.

And the council chambered with accommodation for 150. So far from these primitive guys, these guys were well organized. The second piece of the infrastructure, there were various accounts of Mauo gun factories. The Shabri Moyo and Pumwani bases played the role as KLFA gun factories. Corrara Forests in outside Nairobi

was the main gun factory and had a major hospital. Second point, the police destroyed a Mauo Arms factory in the Meru Forest. Police discovered a mom of gun shop and stored in Nairobi where the city's 200 street sweepers lived.

So this was the guys who dismissed as swippers, but they were were part of the Mauro organization. The terrorist camps were well built. This is colonial language. The sites are laid out with solidly constructed huts of spread bamboo with kitchens and stores, quarters of women and children, and sign balls indicating the commander of the camp.

From these camps, arms and ammunition, foot, clothing and valuable documents have been recovered. I have a picture of a Mao post office. It's a tree. There's no point behind it to you. But a tree... You can send it to me, and I will put it on the promotional tweets and hosts on Instagram that we put out. So, if you want to see the picture, make sure you follow the guerrilla history on.

You'll find the picture. Okay. From that book, this background, is that tree. It's a new book we're working on. But there was a post office they Mau Maui used to use to keep their post to be distributed and collected and so on. And it was a British colonial government that destroyed that post office. British destroyed the Mau Maui Library. They had a library with huge order documents, records of their parliament, speeches.

Britain destroyed them or threw them into the ocean and so on. that's you know that's actually uh i wanted to pick up on that firstly i think some of the things you've been quoting you mentioned are are from colonial uh officers uh reports um i guess are these like intelligence reports or police reports about uh counterinsurgency activities that they then you know documented what they found or when they raided a place and captured some things and And so these are sources for, you know, of course, they have their biases and they have their terrible colonial language, as you're saying, because they characterize the Mao Mao as a terrorist group, right, rather than a, you know, national liberation and anti-colonial resistance movement. But that provides evidence for, you know, the infrastructure that was being developed in the guerrilla camps and in the forests. But what you said was so interesting and something I'd love to hear more about, and I'm assuming maybe you discuss this a lot more in your book about Daniel, about Kimati's, you know, kind of period here organizing a kind of government and waiting, a resistance government, that they had a parliamentary process, they kept records of their decisions and administering the territories that had been liberated.

from British colonial rule, and that when these were captured, they were destroyed or maybe some of them may have been taken away to the UK and kept in inaccessible secret archives. But it sounds like there was a pretty well-developed governmental and political structure that was being developed in these territories that were liberated under the Mao Mao. And I'm just wondering if we know historians, have they recovered any of these sources about the parliament and documents or records? And have they done any reconstruction of what was the work that this parliament was doing? What kinds of decisions were they making? How were they governing, you know, their areas? The reason why I'm asking is because the cry, the slogan of land and freedom, you know, is very significant, it seems to me. It's saying that they want to build, you know, a society and an independent and free country, you know, and they were very conscious of the ways in which they needed to do that, whereas all the propaganda from the, you know, colonial sources or just denying that there was any real genuine political component, you know, to this Mao Mao resistance.

And it's just, oh, their hatred of whites and settlers. and so they're just attacking and killing and so on. So they wanted to try and deny in some sense the political character and organization of the Mao Mao movement. And so I think it would be very interesting and helpful to know a little bit more about were there records and sources

that people have managed to find that survived to give us insight into what was taking place from a political character, an administrative and governance character, within liberated territories of, you know, of this government, essentially, of this anti-colonial Kenyan government. Yeah, it's interesting because a lot of these documents,

as you mentioned, were destroyed or Eden and so on. And a lot of people who are active in Mauo have written it, but most of them talk about from their own little perspective of what they see and what they do. An important person and important historical record is in a book called Mauo from Within

by Kararindjama and Don Barnett. Don't Barnett is written quite a few other publications on Malmo, little booklets, hardcore and guerrilla, somebody or a fighter or something.

But in this book, Kararin Jama the personal secretary of Kimati. And he was the one who was writing notes of meetings and keeping records. Kimati was very strict about keeping records. And this guy was writing, and a lot of it was destroyed and whatever else between to deal with it.

But that book is a key book, if anybody wants to know about Maumau, and this is where a lot of things that I came to, realize what Mama was was when I read that book and I said I'd never known that before and that opened my eyes and then I started looking around but that is

the key book I think it has been republished recently by the Raja Press in Canada but the original is an important I was looking for the read somewhere here so there is it's not just the colonial sources we are telling this

it's first of all I think I had to get around, I mean, sorry for bringing personal things, but I had to liberate my mind, as it were, from what I had been taught hard. And that moment was when I read that book. And it changed the way I was thinking of Mumbai. And that is an important issue, how people think about Mumbai. Unless you read this and see the facts,

and this is all evidence. Since some of the facts about Maramo, I can go on about, as Maumo as an organization, which was, in terms of said, what they were doing, you know, the conferences in 1953, what is to come to known as Moata Contra. This is, I think, from that book,

that I mentioned, MoMA from within. 1950s, the Kenya Defense Council was formed. It was the highest military and political organ of the arms struggle with, in court's power to form a net strategy and policy, enact rules and regulations and sit at the highest judicial level and had the authority to implement and imposter its rulings. and that Martha conference elected, not nominated or anything, leadership. And Kimati was the president, General Matangi as vice president.

And Kimati was also the highest military authority as field marshal. The leadership was thus charged with planning, organization, and execution of both aspects of the struggle, military and political and the total fighting force was organized into eight armies that was Monta Contrains 1953

the following year it's another important one 800 momo representatives now these are guys in the forest

how 800 of them got together but they did and 800 more more representative said of the Kenya Parliament in 1954, the first legitimate Kenyan government of Kenya, this is where I talk about Kimasi is the prime minister. Two members were elected to the Kenya parliament. Kimati was elected the first prime minister of Kenya, and its aim was to separate

political and military aspects, because in the previous, it was all combined. I think the As it was developing, it needed two separate things. Emphasized the national character of the freedom movement ensured the representation of all Kenyan nationalities, assume political authority over liberated and semi-liberated areas, and it established authority of fighting for that. So politics was in command of the military. If there's on these military things,

I go and kill people and so on. I think that's at one phase of Mao starts. I think I might have stopped there and we can talk about defects and so on. Yeah, well, I do want to turn towards armed resistance a bit as well and focus a little bit on that. At risk of talking about the one aspect that is typically talked about within the West, particularly when Mao comes up. And I know Adnan had mentioned the way that Mao was typically. characterized by the colonial authorities and how there's not this political project involved in this, this project of construction and of building of community, but rather is this organization

based on hatred and on violence. Even when I was growing up, which yes, listeners, was not that long ago, in our history textbooks, and I always like to think about the history textbooks that we used when I was in high school, because, of course, that's how most people are exposed to any history at all. The guerrilla history listener is not the average person. The average person is only exposed to this sort of history through what they're told in class. And in high school, Maumau is one of the very few movements in Africa that is ever discussed within world history textbooks, at least at my school in the U.S. where I grew up. And within these textbooks, Maumau was characterizes a violent organization that was based primarily on hatred of the British.

And this is, again, talking about an American context back in when did I take world history in high school, 2009, 2010, 2010. We're talking in 2010, and Maumau is still being characterized solely as a violent organization that was formed around hatred of the British. And so when you talk about armed resistance, of course, there is this tendency that a lot of people might go back into that, that thinking of Mau Mau is simply a violent organization. But I'm sure by now, the listeners that are listening to this part of the conversation will understand that that is not what Mao Mao was. There was a political project here. But if you can talk a bit about the armed resistance, the way that that unfolded, both in terms of the, the way that Maumau undertook their resistance, as well as the colonial repression that then followed after this. And the repression listeners is, I'm sure that Shiraz is going to share

some pretty grisly details because it was quite grisly in terms of the repression that took place. I mean, we're talking things about including public hangings. This is something that was banned in Britain roughly 100 years previously, but the British colonial authorities still saw it fit to hang people publicly for the spectacle and then leave the bodies displayed in public places in Kenya to discourage people from associating with the Mao and other actions like having enforced curfews and then going house to house and, you know, locking people up that were even suspected of having associations with the Malmau. I will not get into it because Shiraz is obviously more of an expert in this than I am.

But just to brace yourselves a little bit, listeners, because the colonial repression, as it typically is, is quite brutal. And so I'm sure that when we talk about that, there's going to be some things that you want to prepare yourself for. Chiraz, the floor is yours. Can you talk about the armed resistance and then the colonial repression as a result of that? Well, they realized that they had two enemies to fight. One was, obviously, the colonial government and the pound forces. but the so-called homeguards African people who had been bought out

were instrumental in undermining MoMAO. So some of their activity was to eliminate those people. Now, MoMA was very, although it was so, we saw the central organization, so on, it was organized locally, as it were, so that local leaders had the who set up their own strategy

of work out, what needs to be done, and carry out activities. The way they armed themselves was mostly from stolen guns and armament from the British forces, which I think is a normal practice everywhere. it. But of course they had their own gun factories and oil, not always very successful but many of them were usable. But what did Britain do? And you mentioned hanging, but I think a typical British invention in Kenya, I don't know if they did it anywhere else, was the mobile gallows. They didn't have a central place where people would be executed. This Killers would move from town to town.

I mean, it's unimaginable that at least day and age, such things would happen. Sir, let's see some of the courts on that. The defeat of Maumo involved a degree of savagery that is quite unprecedented in Britain's 20th century colonial wars. In Kenya, the flogging, torture, mutilation, rape, and summary execution of suspects and prisoners were every day of occurrences. So they must mention that recently in the last maybe 10 years or so,

there have been many new books based on British documents which are hidden, which documents all of these things. And I think they are listed in at the end of this paper of Somerlands. I can send you the list. So it's now where documents. by historians. Elements within the security forces in Kenya, particularly the police,

used the methods of the Gestapo at their worst. The colonial government presided over a judicial massacre. By 1952, 10090 were hanged. A mobile girl was specially built so that prisoners could be hanged in their home, to provide an example. So, I mean, it just works for itself, I think. And this is what Moma were fighting against.

And I think in those are the books that I mentioned, it goes into much more detail about how people are tortured and within, I don't need to point to that. Do you want me to sort of look for something else on Well, I think we're more interested in your understanding of these events. And, you know, I think, for example, what happened, broadly speaking, during the course of the uprising and what its consequences were. because I think very often the Mao Mao rebellion is characterized as a failed rebellion because, you know, the counterinsurgency against the guerrilla war lasted for a very long time

and managed in the end to capture, you know, field marshal de Dan Kimati in the end. And so sometimes the way it's framed as it was this terrible, violent, terroristic movement that eventually, despite a lot of, you know, violence and, you know, measures had to be taken. And of course, there had to be repression. But in the end, you know, eventually it was successful by the colonial authorities in kind of stopping or containing the insurgency while missing that it was always a political movement intending the freedom and anti-colonial, you know, resistance and struggle that, you know, by the end of this period in the early 60s, you know, did lead to the freedom and liberation of Kenya. But of course, you know, understanding exactly the dynamics,

both politically and militarily, of the succeeding years, is very important to trying to understand and unravel exactly what happened and how and why the post-colonial state of Kenya took the shape and the form that it did. And so I'm wondering if maybe you can tell us a little bit more in response to this sort of typical characterization that you find in some aspects of the historiography that only talk about the military component and, of course, exaggerate and emphasize the, you know, violent savagery of this, without giving any due to the political stakes involved, you know, tends to characterize this as an insurgency that ultimately was defeated with the capture of, you know, De Dan Kimati. What's your take on that? How do you analyze

those events? And what were the consequences and legacies of the rebellion, you know, in the aftermath of that, of that period. Okay, split that above in three or four different stages. First, the question is, did Maumau win? I think that is probably what people want to know. And my answer is, yes, what were they fighting for? Here is a colonial superpower taking over the country with such superior armaments and they brought their headaches, boomers and navy and all that, to defeat

these guys. These guys, what they were talking about was land and freedom. The key thing was getting control, getting power, getting colonialism out of Kenya. One cannot expect, say, Mao, to fight battles against issues that had not. a reason. New colonialism had not been born in that year. It was colonism. They're fighting. They draw colonialism out of the country, which was their main aim. British colonialism would not have ended without the action of Mongolia. Kenya would probably have become a secular-dominated, so-called independent country like Rhodesia, and it did not. So, irrespective of what happened after,

And we can talk about that afterwards also. So the real question is then, did Britain win? I mean, the other side of it is, did Britain win? Most certainly not. It spent decades trying to suppress nationalities, their national struggles, and there are the trade unions, and the armed resistance. It was all to subjugate the people and to continue colonialism.

The aim was finally defeated by the resistance from Myanmar. So it's a very straightforward equation, who won and who lost. It was at that time that not only colonialism, colonialists, but Kenya resistance realized that there was a problem, that there's a new phase was coming in. And again, I'm quoting from their documents, And this is Don Bernard saying in one of his little books. He says, the story of Mau Mau should be studied carefully for the lessons that can be learned from such a bitter failure.

A bitter failure in the sense of looking at it afterwards. Political independence without genuine decolonization and socialism yields continued misery and operations and operations for the peasant worker masses. Garigo was one of the activists, Mo Amo activists. He had prayed. He said, I only pray that after independence, our children will not be forced to fight again, to which non-violent continues. Cadigo's prayer, as those of other peasants and workers,

got up in the way of new colonial accommodation after long years of struggle, that will not be answered. their prayer will not be answered. His and their children will be forced to fight again. And that is what is happening today in a way. And they realize what is happening and what was the aim of this new stages.

The sacrifices, I think this has been to saying, the sacrifices of hundreds of thousands of Kenya's friend of fighters must be honoured by the effective implementation of the policy. a democratic, African, socialist state in which the Kenyan and O'Huru must not be transomed into freedom to exploit or freedom to be hungry and live in ignorance. O'Huru must be O'Huru for the masses, O'Huru from exploitation, from ignorance, disease and poverty.

So this is where in a transitional period when colonialism, with all the experience it has had all over the world, realized they were losing the game and they'd only planted the seeds of capitalism through these land policies and creating these home guard classes. And it was at that time that the last governor of Kenya, Baca McDonald's came to Kenya

And again, I have a... Sorry. Ah, you're there still. There's another book I've written called Two Paths Ahead, where I'm looking at more with the ideological struggle in Kenya, people called capitalism and socialism. And it's very clear that that independence period, Britain had planted capitalism.

But this maternal governor I mentioned, he was sent. He was supposedly... a progressive guy. So people would think, oh, it's not good, we have a progressive governor. Obviously, he was out to find out

how to transition from colonialism to neo-colonialism. And he realized it's more detail in that book that Kenetta is somebody with who we can do business. Kenetta was, even from the time

he was in England, it was a Ruffian kind of guy. In detention, he got more food, better treatment than the other detainees. He never shared anything with anybody. He had more money even when he came out than the other detainees. Now, how does that ever happen? It is this governor realizing, and having talked to Kima and Kenyatta, that this is the guy who can rescue colonialism and turn it into neo-colonialism. well-programmed. And I think there are historical mistakes,

which historians or somebody else will have to deal with. One to do with Momo. If Mao had formed a political party, like they were trying to do underground or in the forest, if they had come out into the open, and instead of allowing the so-called canoe, cano to become Kanu-B, If Ma'amu'll have won old election, it is actually what Britain did.

So maybe that was a historical mistake, partly because maybe Guamati and the leadership was being hunted in the forest, and maybe they had no time for those kind of things. Yeah, what you're touching on now is actually where I hope that we would go with this conversation at this point, which is talking about some of the specific things that were successful. and specific things that were failures within this movement in order to perhaps inform other anti-imperialist and anti-colonial movements in the world today. So, of course, we have to understand that every individual movement is a product of its own historical conditions and its own material conditions at that point in time.

It's all, you know, it's all dependent on where that place is at that given point in time. And so no two movements are going to be exactly the same. same, even if they're happening in the same location at different times or in two different locations at the same time. There's always historical particularities that are at play here. However, with that being said, there are certainly things that can be drawn from these experiences in the past, both in the positive sense and in the negative sense to help inform other movements that are operating along similar lines in different contexts. So can you, you just mentioned one of the things that you think was a failure of the Mao, but can you talk a little bit

maybe more deeply on that issue, but then also if there's other things that you think that they did that were particularly strong, that you think would be applicable, relevant, and useful for other movements to think about incorporating within their movements, again, understanding the historical and material particularities of every given movement, but then also if there's anything else that you think was a particular shortcoming within the Mao that you think, again, these other movements today should

be aware of in terms of analyzing and perhaps trying to avoid if, again, that historical particularity of their movements would also have that as a potential pitfall. Well, I think

1950s I can only look back now and say, possibly worked with the weaknesses, but there was resistance in India, in Soviet Union, example of the Soviet Union, in People's Republic of China. There were other examples which perhaps MoMA couldn't learn examples from, experience from. And I think, possibly because it was isolated or possibly because people were not overhauled, so much about the ongoing things in the world.

As I said at the beginning, colonialism had learned from this or depression around the world. And although Mauma was successful in its own way, I think part of the weakness, whatever reason, was they did not incorporate per lessons from the struggles of other people. And in that sense, it was not only Bonova. I mean, you look back at the Lecester House conference in Kenya,

which decided on Kenya's independence. There was a group, there was a very strong socialist group in Kenya Parliament, among the people, among the embasships, and they allowed themselves to be out manualed by Britain and by Kenyatta. We are publishing a new book on history of Kenya People's Union

in the next few months. One of the things that emerges is that in a conference in Lancaster House conferences, Odinga was there who was supposedly a socialist. Well, he was at that type. And he, they discussed, there were progressives who discussed that Keneta is taking us the wrong way around. So what do we do? There was a suggestion that they should

form another party. Kanun was becoming from Kanu to Kanu B, which is more of capitalists. Maybe it should be called Kanu-C, Kanu-C capitalist. And they were aware of what was happening. There are people who were conscious of where Kenyatta and the British government were taking them. And according to this new walk coming out, it was Odinger who said no to forming that new party, the left party. I think that is again a historical failure. He said, oh, we'll be through all this, this, are we going to fight our fellow Africans? Where is his class consciousness, if that is what he believed in? Africans are good because they were black and you move along with them?

Or do you see a challenge coming to Kenya? Okay, so when it came out much later, 65 to 69, it was too late. Kenyatta had been well entrenched. He had the British army sitting in Kenya. U.S. was floating around everywhere. And it was no way that Caprio would be allowed to bring in socialism in 65. They killed Piaama Pinto for that very reason. Now, taking the historical thing, the underground movements in Kenya,

December 12th movement and more Kenya, for various reasons they had to be underground because of open oppression and so on. We were, in Kenya at that time, merged with Uki Umoja. We were in London, we were discussing around 1990s what we should do. Should we form a political party? And the majority of people, they said, no, we shouldn't. And some individuals went back home to Kenya, well, ran to Kenya and stood as members of other political parties.

What I'm trying to say is that it was another historical failure. If at that time Maquenia had come up and formed a political quality, Kenya's history would have been different at that time. It was slightly open society. It could have come up with a socialist agenda, but December 12th moment and Mark Kenya never openly talked about socialism. It was always in the background. So what was scaring them?

I don't know. I mean, that's for historians to look into it. But the point is, well, I was part of it, so maybe I haven't to blame it as well. The point is that at crucial time, do not hesitate, take advantage of that particular time, organize, and openly, even Tindana in Kenya, there is no political party,

like you mentioned, the Communist Party. But it is not that defective. yet, anyway. What we need is a public statement that we stand for socialism. We, that expose capitalism is different in the country. Nobody talks of capitalism.

So, it's easy from this perspective to look back in history and say what are the mistakes. But when you talked about other organizations and lessons to be learned, These are some of the nationals that don't hide your ideology. Capitalism doesn't proclaim itself because it doesn't need to. It's already there. Socialism needs to explain what socialism is all about.

The trade unions need to stand up and say they are for working clubs. Where is the class analysis? Where is the openness about the struggles that are being waged? These struggles are going about even in Kenya today. There is the Tennessee and other movements we are writing another book on them. But there is nobody in the mainstream who says capitalism is what is our problem. We need socialism. And in the wilderness of their progress, do you have any comments on?

Yeah, I just, before Adnan goes in, with kind of the closing stage of this conversation, I think. Somebody who you've mentioned in this conversation and who's come up in some past conversations, but I realize now, thinking back, we haven't really discussed him previously, and we would be remiss to not do so because, well, you have a book about him, Shiraz, is Pio Gamma Pinto. He's come up in this conversation several times, and I know that when we've had conversations with Comrade Booker,

he's brought up Pio Gamma Pinto as well. the ideological school of the Communist Party Marxist of Kenya was just renamed the Pio Gama Pio Gama Pinto Institute. He was assassinated by the state. As you mentioned, he was the founder of the post-independence, Patrice Lamumba Institute within Kenya. But can you tell us just a little bit more information about Pio Gama Pinto, which perhaps will get the listeners interested? As I mentioned, you have a book on it.

So, you know, we get to keep plugging your work throughout this episode. An important book on my own Pyongma, Winter, was one written or published by Abu by Patel. And the booklet is called Independent Kenya's First Martyr or something like that. It's when I read that book that I was good interested in Pinto, although I knew about him a bit. But a long story short, Pinto was in Kenya. sent to Goa, he was a Goan nationality. He was sent to Goa for training, for education. He joined the military and did some, I don't know,

things, military kind of things. But he was one of the founder members of the Goa Liberation, I don't know what to call exactly, the Goa Liberation Movement, which is fighting Portuguese colonialism. And he was active there as a founder member and so on. But the time came when the Portuguese government was going to detain him or kill him or whatever.

So it was time for him to return home to Kenya. But he is again one of those guys who came with experience of resistance to colonialism, to imperialism, from India to Kenya. And he could not, of course, sit here quietly and become a clerk or whatever. And he joined the resistance. in different ways and he was, he has been active throughout. But like his wife said, always

it's behind the curtains. He, he was a socialist. He supported Keneta's daughter while Keneta was in detention. He, when he was working, he gave half his salary to people who were coming out of detention or who were poor and who could not serve. way. Now, there were a few guys who do that and he have his own family. He had no house until people around him said, look, you need a house for your family and they bought for him. His father-in-law gave him some money for a car and so on. He used that money to buy a printing press because he was active in the struggle. So he was a journalist. He was a journalist. He was I don't know. He was everything. He wrote articles supported, like many of the reports and

petitions and memoranda, written about land in Kenya. Particularly one where he wrote a 200-page long report on the land in Kenya. It was written by him. And he was active in, he was from what I have I don't I have an interview with a Mau Mau activist, a Maramov leader who says that

Markens Singh and Piagama Pinto have taken the oath of Marmau not the traditional oath with whatever they were doing but in their own way so technically they were Mao although they are not seen as Mammao

maybe they don't want maybe the family might not like it, I don't know. But, sirs, I'm concerned, you don't get arms for South Africa for Mau Mau, unless you are Marmau. You don't collect money from Marmau and distribute it to all the units of Marmau unless you are part of Mauo,

and that is what been to hers. Anyway, he was a socialist. At the time of Independence, one of the courts had said gave was from him. and but he never everything that he wrote is not in public his wife says it

most of the articles he wrote where he wrote under different names not his own name he never wanted any glory of erratory for himself at the time of independence just after independence he was

Keneta brought his with I think Tomboia was very given script by CIA to say, here this is

a document to make a law it's called African socialism and you take it to parliament and African it was called African socialism but it was really

African capitalism capitalism so it was a capitalist document and Pinto, Odinga and Yaris realized what was going on so they found a counter document

of socialism. And at that time they had support, they had a majority in the parliament. Pinto was an MP also. And they were going to present that. And Kenyaja would have been defeated in parliament. And this, Gano left ringers would have come to power. And that was one of the reasons why Pinto was assassinated. The other was he challenged Kniea about land that that Kenyatta was stealing and giving it to his friends. But this was the guy who was assassinated, and it's a very unfortunate historical fact that people who were close to him,

him of his friends, decided when he was assassinated, that all his documents in his house should be burnt. And his wife was too, I don't know, what do you call you, what you were suffering from the shock of the husband dying, that she could not stop them but she didn't even realize what was going on

so these are the fellows out of all goodness of their heart burnt everything they could have done given it to somebody else Borumbi's wife was quite happy to do to take it on she said

I think but the point is that every record that he had has been destroyed very very little is there now obviously it must be in various

archives around the world. He was active in Cairo, in India, in Mozambique, Angola, all the Portuguese colonies. And in fact, he was not thinking of going from Kenya to Mozambique to support their struggle when he was assassinated. I don't know. I didn't think I can say any more. That's fascinating.

That's so interesting to hear about this figure. But you mentioned that he took money that was supposed to be for a car to use for his family. and so on to buy a printing press, you know, to use in the struggle. And it just reminded me, I mean, we've had an episode recently about publishing as anti-imperialist practice. And I noticed that also your political activism in Kenya and outside of Kenya has been very dedicated to journalism, writing, doing these archival histories, but also publishing and creating a publishing house. And I wondered if you had any reflections about,

that component and what that significance and importance of that has been to the struggle for, you know, liberation in Kenya, how you see it and how you see the role of your publishing house and these activities as part of political education, people's political education. Maybe you have some reflections of your own about the importance of your own. own efforts and endeavors in publishing as part of Kenyan liberation. Okay, I mean, my background in the December 12th movement was, first of all, at a level of cells. Maybe you can explain the December 12th movement just briefly, you know, for people who

were not as aware of... Okay, okay. Towards the end of 1970s, people realized that, well, People were active or conscious that at, and these times people were much more aware of what was happening in China and USSR and all the rest of it. So the only way to organize was not openly to come out in the open. You could not form a political party. You could not come an open in socialism. So a group of people, many of them based with universities, academics, started forming, the performing,

Workers' Party, which then gradually became December 12th movement. It was an underground movement, which published its documents, this newspaper. It had a newspaper called Pambana, which means struggle. And one of the Joe Jobs was to write and publish lots of leaflets, and distribute them all over the country in working class areas. And it was organized along cell lines. So cells were distributed all over the place and we were making an expert into the working class areas

and getting workers into the cells. So one of the things was to politicize people within these cells to make them aware. So information was quite central. I was a library, I am a library, I guess. I worked as a library at the University of Nairobi. So my key focus on, in political work, was to see information as a way of changing people's thinking, liberating people's minds.

So December transformers used to do in place, like you have heard of Gorgis and Gai, Canada. We set up in the library where I was working, we set up something called Sahamu Yautongaji, creative wing. and we published a play which my wife directed it was called Kinjiki Telemagi. Based on the original Manjiki teleplay,

but we made it much more radical and Kenyan focused and it played for a month at the university. Now, the point is that at one level, in a cell you politicize as usual like in a one-to-one basis.

But in the same time, you cannot win revolution by talking to individuals. You need to talk to thousands of people. So, December 12th movement set up this newspaper called Pomana and only two issues were published. It was an underground thing

and both cars are available now for people to read and so on. Incidentally, at the Okombo's a library to your head set up, a library is part of the information. The story is called Okombozzi Library, Liberation Library in Arabic. All these documents we have are called now in the Kenya Resistance Archives at the library.

The question was about the role of publishing and so on. I remember one of the other documents I've prepared was a annotated bibliography on publishing, how it was used in USSR, in China, and other socialist countries. And because it was a document we were using as in December 21st movement, it had to do. summaries, quite substantions summaries of the actual documents because not everybody had access to those documents. We had a central library

I had my own box so we collected I collected abstracts and summaries and send it around to people and the key fact is what is a newspaper for

not just distributed newspapers but to create cuddles all over the country who become news reporters, collecting information, and then you become active members of the organization. So that is what we were trying to do. When I could not publish my book, I was in Kenya in 84, I was directing his book, Never Be Silent,

some other books on Kymadi. The mainstream publishers were not interested in it. a publisher bookshop called Heritage Workshop I was planning to publish it with Vicas in India but before that happened

I had to leave the country because of my articles on Pinto so I come to England quite cut off from the reality of my political life and here I have these works and material what do I do with it? I took you to several publishers they were not interested

so we set up with us we set up the Witte books. And we didn't do much. Only a main book, we published two little pamphlets. One was this one called Kimati, Mahamu's prime minister, another one was by Ngugi Wathiungo, writing

against colonialism. But the main book was in Never Be Silent, which was in fact printed, not, yeah, designed and printed in Kenya. Because this is what we were trying to do. As time went on, I made connection with Kenya

again. And And the Vita Books came to Kenya in 2017. The point is, I was talking to a few years back with the chairman of October, so the Kenya Publishers Association. And he says, there is no publisher in Kenya who publishes the books that Ritterbux does. Because they are scared or that there's no money in it, they think.

But here we are, and we are not worried about money as such. I mean, I subsidize it initially, but it's selling more copies in Kenya than Africa African Book Collective, which sells worldwide, which shows that there is a demand for books in Kenya if the content is correct

and it would like Pinto. Pinto became, there was people knew there were some alternative but people become more conscious of Pinto after that book came out. People have started reading more of those books now. And the young people who are active on the streets now, what would they read in Kenanist? There's nothing.

I went to read. Do you read what cardinalist perspectives or history from? There's no history books as such. And they go to which are books. They go to Okoomu's a library. If they can't afford to buy the book, they read it there. There are very many study groups in Kenya now and community groups, their study, and lot of the material they study, is this.

As part of that was also, Okunwozy Library has set up online training course. The first one was last year on trade unionism. Half of the material from what was used by Marx-Millardian Library, the other half on the context, which you work together and put together. Our next one is on economics and Marxism. We should also look at the situation in Kenya. Online courses based on substantial material from UK, but with Kenyan context and delivered by Kenyans.

So, I don't know, where does the information stop and where does politics start? I don't know. That's a great response. And I have one final question for you, which is, you know, you've talked a lot about your writings. You've talked about a lot of works that you've done, plays, books. And, you know, I have several of them on my computer, digital copies, because I live in Russia where no books can get sent to right now. But I'm sure many of our listeners who were not formerly familiar with your works are now checking out your old works, but can you also tell the listeners what you're

working on now? What can they expect to see coming out from you in the near future? I know you've mentioned a couple of things throughout the conversation, but just let everybody know. again, what are some of your upcoming projects? Okay, one of the things is that books that have historical value go out of print. So we also have a small project on reprinting books. Let me just get the title correct. An important book which has been out of print for many many years is a book called The Struggle for Jomo, for release Jomo.

and his colleagues. This was done by Amu Bhaa Patella mentioned, and in the original one, he did not mention his name by his editor. We have mentioned, given him his cadet. But what he did was he wrote letters, a thousand letters to people in Kenya and horses, and said, what do you think people were in detention?

Not also the focus on Kenya, on Kenyatta, but it was people in detention, but also what was the perspective? on the liberation in Kenya. And we've got something like 140 responses. And these are all in this book. And the book has been not open for a very long time. So we published that.

We've published another, in the process of publishing, Markensig's book. Markensing was the author of two of the most important books in Kenyan history, history of trade union movement in Kenya. So we are working on publishing the first one early next year. So it's called

History of Kenya's Trade Union Movement to 1952 by Makhan Singh. And in the version we are doing reprinting, we hear additional material

on it, taken from Vedas fleeces and so on. So this one thing, but two of the things that are coming out is one is a book,

a second book of it on Marken Singh called The Struggle has started. reflections on Markensing, Kenya's Freedom Fighter and Trade Unionist 1913 to 73.

So we had written earlier work, edited, and I'm editing, I'm on this on issues. We launched it in that way, but it's being published now. And the newer one, which hopefully comes out in early January,

early next year, is called from Malmau to Roto Must Go. essays on Kenya's struggle against imperences. So this brings it up to date that there is a struggle in Kenya, and one of the things we didn't talk about is, how does Maumau connect with the struggle today? I mean, I think you wrote so running out of time.

But this book I have wrote various articles on this topic. They were published, and we printed some copies and distributed them free of church. Now we are printing, we're doing some additional material in it, and publishing it as a book. So that should come out earlier next year. And I don't know. That's it, I think. Oh, yeah, the other thing, just to mention, it's not new one, but I've written also a short story for young people or old people, people young in mind.

It's called Escape from Moneyville. It shows how capitalism has captured our society in just as an example kind of. thing. Well, that's marvelous. And I know I've had a lot of fun during this conversation. Maybe you can spare three to five minutes to take us from Mau Mau to today in Kenya. Give us the Spark Notes version of that and then we'll include some of those articles that you wrote on and the information of where the book will be coming out in the show notes for listeners to get the more full explanation of it. But, you know, give us a little taste of it. What is important to say, as far as I can make out, is a continuity, a continuation of resistance. Or what might have benefited in that sense of neocolonialism, resistance never died. It was not only about it, Morkenia published another little book, based on some underground work, was a register of resistance. 19, I can't remember the year. But it shows that it's not only the organizations and KPUs and Mo Kenya who are resisting.

It lists workers, peasants, students, intellectuals, their struggle, and how they are resisting. And that aspect is totally forgotten in any consideration of resistance. So, More Kenya published that book, create. But the resistance has continued. Some organized, some unorganized, some underground, some overground, some trade unions, some other academics and so on. And this present government is, in fact, perhaps the height of neolism, if there is such a thing, where it is selling off the country, bit by bit, or chunk by chunk, and... At the expense of old-class people,

oh, why? We'll try even further from means of survival. And that is what, and the important thing is that are, I've said somewhere, how many, I don't know how many, 50 or 60 years, universities in Kenya now. It might be a bit more. And the cultures, some of the universities are intellectual, they are aware, they are, they are,

they read, books when they did other things. They were aware of what's happening in the world. And just like at the time of Mauo, it was the, they were coming from the World Wars, overactive and saw the chain, knee per change. It is this generation that is saying enough is enough. And they came up with this thing,

Roto must go. And that has become a national call now. And this is why we're calling this book that. And in certain limitations. And again, in my tongue with the articles, I say that the Rotow is not going to go away. He has time on his side. He has USA Army on his side. He has Britain on his side.

He has the whole limit of the world behind him, IMF and whatever. And these young people with all the best intentions are standing out in the streets. 60 of them have been killed. Another, I don't know how many have been massac, have been disappeared. Others are being picked up at random, so-called. And I said, the point is, you are buried,

don't just stand up in the way of bullets. I said, you mention, for example, if all of you disappeared from the public and went and did what Nkrumah said because what Nkoma said is go to the people, live among them, learn from them, love them, serve them,

plan with them, start with what they know, build on what they have. Something like a cultural revolution where people were being sent out to all parts of the country. And I said, all of you are young, you have struggled to survive. get right into the country,

move with the people. Find your livelihood there, but learn from them and teach them. And in five years' time or so, you can come out and face the new route to whoever is empowered. Because right now,

you are exposing yourself. You are being killed. I don't know. I mean, I am not in Kenya, so it's easy for me to talk. But the key thing is that there is a resistance. And it's not only in life, It's all over the place.

And we are trying to document some of them in this new book we're doing. And there is the resistance at the level of cartoons, poems, songs. It's not just people say on the street kind of things. So there is a building momentum, but know your enemy. This enemy is not going to go away.

They have had the experience of suppressing resistance for centuries. So I think it is a moot sign, but it's not easy. That's a great way to end the conversation. Again, listeners or guest was Shiraz Durani, who is a writer from Kenya, as we mentioned, currently in Britain. Although you're going on vacation soon, so, you know, some warm weather for you. But we'll save where that is, too, for just our private correspondence. But in any case, I highly recommend the listeners.

check out all of the works that you talked about in this episode. It'll take them a while to get through all of those works. But as I mentioned earlier, the one that's probably the most apropos of this discussion is Kenya's War of Independence, Mau Mau, and its legacy of resistance to colonialism and imperialism. Thank you very much for joining us, Shiraz. I'm going to turn it to Adnan now. Adnan, can you tell the listeners how they can find you on Twitter and your other podcast?

Well, yes, and I also want to thank you very much, Shedras, for a wonderful conversation and also for the continuing work that you're doing. You began this by saying that you were retired when we were talking beforehand, but clearly you're not retired from the movement and from political activity in your publishing and research and writing. And so we thank you very much for that and for informing our listeners about it. Listeners, if you want to follow me, you can find me on Twitter at Adnan-A-Husain, H-U-S-A-I-N. And you can listen to my other podcast called The M-J-L-I-S, which is about Middle East, Islamic world, Muslim-Di-Sporic communities and culture. So you can check that out as well. Absolutely highly recommend that.

As for me, listeners, you can find me on Twitter at Huck-1995, H-U-C-K-1995. you can help support guerrilla history and allow us to continue making episodes like this, both within our African revolutions and decolonization series like this episode was, as well as our other, it will be now every other week between the African episodes and the other episodes by going to patreon.com forward slash guerrilla history.

That's G-U-E-R-R-I-L-A history. And you can follow the show on social media on Twitter at Gorilla underscore pod. It's G-U-E-R-R-I-L-L-L-A history. A underscore pod. And on Instagram, Gorilla underscore History, again, Gorilla with 2R's underscore history. And until next time, listeners, Solidarity. Thank you.