Guerrilla History - Remembering Anticolonial Algiers: Panthers & Pan-African Revolutionaries w/Elaine Mokhtefi

Episode Date: October 13, 2025

In this collaboration between Guerrilla History and the Adnan Husain Show, Adnan has a wonderful conversation with a remarkable radical activist, Elaine Mokhtefi, as part of our ongoing series of interviews with living historical revolutionaries. Elaine Mokhtefi is author of "Algiers, Third World Capital: Freedom fighters, Revolutionaries, Black Panthers." This fascinating discussion retraces Elaine's early political engagement with the FLN mission to the UN, her decision to move to Algeria to help build the postcolonial nation after liberation from France, her experiences as a translator and journalist covering the transnational movements for liberation across the Global South, and work with the Black Panthers exiled in Algiers. She danced with Fanon, met radical third world leaders, and struggled for a better world. Now in her 90's, she remains an inspiring and committed activist. A lot to learn in this conversation! Help support the show by signing up to our patreon, where you also will get bonus content: https://www.patreon.com/guerrillahistory  We also have a (free!) newsletter you can sign up for, and please note that Guerrilla History now is uploading on YouTube as well, so do us a favor, subscribe to the show and share some links from there so we can get helped out in the algorithms!! Adnan Husain Show on YT and audio podcast and they can support patreon.com/adnanhusain and buymeacoffee.com/adnanhusain

Hello, guerrilla history listeners. This is co-host Henry. First, by way of apology, you undoubtedly have noticed that the last couple of guerrilla history release days, there has not been an episode which has come out. The reason for that is that I was at a conference in Moscow recently and wasn't able to do the editing that I typically do to get the episodes ready for release. With that being said, you are getting an episode today on a 18. typical release day. And you'll also be getting an episode on Friday this week, as usual, with a couple of great guests. The episode that you're hearing today is a collaborative episode between guerrilla history and the Adnan Hussein show. This was also an episode that I wasn't

able to be at. It's on a book which I read back in 2021, and I remember it very vividly and really wanted to be at that conversation, but I was in Crimea during the conversation. and wasn't able to access any of the sites that I needed to use in order to get the conversation recorded. But Adnan did a terrific job with the interview of the guest, which you'll be hearing in just a moment. And I want to say that if you haven't already subscribed to the Adnan Hussein show, in addition to guerrilla history, you should do so now.

This Friday, you can look forward to an episode with Alex Savinia and Michael Fox on the latest in Venezuela. And we have a couple of other episodes already recorded, which will also be coming out in subsequent weeks, everything from football-related content, not featuring Alex Savina for once, as well as some more African revolutions and decolonization episodes, which are coming down the pipeline as well. So stay tuned. Again, apologies that there haven't been episodes which have come out on the last couple of Fridays. I just haven't been able to get them up and ready to go. But I am now working overtime to make sure that you have fresh guerrilla history content in the next couple of weeks as we get things scheduled for upcoming conversations as well

to keep you with a constant flow of new material. So without further ado, I'm now going to turn this over to Adnan for the interview. The same thing happened in Algeria, in Africa. They didn't have anything but a rank. The French had all these highly mechanized instruments of wafted, but they put some guerrilla action on. Salam, hello, bonjour, welcome to you all, peace to you all. I'm Adnan Hussein, historian of the medieval Mediterranean and Islamic world at Queens University. And welcome to my show. And also, I have to say that this is a very special episode because it's going to be a collaboration with my other venture, the podcast, Gorilla History. Unfortunately, my co-host, Henry Hakamaki,

can't make it today, but we will make sure listeners that you get a chance to hear this wonderful conversation coming up. And as many of you who are listeners to guerrilla history would know, we very often have had a series where we've talked with not only historians who have studied the past and radical movements and revolutionary struggles, but we've had an opportunity occasionally to speak with somebody who was a witness to and participant in those periods of historical change and in those dramatic events. And we're very lucky today to have someone in exactly that position. So without further ado, I would like to introduce and welcome Elaine Muhtafi, who is an American, Algerian, activist, writer, journalist, and translator, who is

author of this wonderful book, Alger's Third World Capital, with the subtitle Freedom Fighters, revolutionaries black panthers i mean what could be more exciting than that elaine thanks so much for joining us on the show oh i'm glad to be here i hope i can answer the questions properly oh don't worry i think this firstly i want to encourage everyone to go read the book and this uh conversation that we're having hopefully will give them a little bit of a taste of the of you know what you tell about in this amazing narrative about yourself and your life because you are a witness to and participant to some really major shifts and events in a very exciting period, you know, in the post, particularly the post-war period. And so I wanted to just ask you a little bit before

we get into talking about Algeria and Algiers in your relationship to the anti-colonial struggle and to the post-colonial country in its early period of its post-colonial history when it got its independence from France. I wanted to ask you, just so listeners and watchers can understand a little bit of your political background beforehand is, I was very intrigued to learn that you were an internationalist from very early on and that you had participated in United World Federalists. And I just was wondering, because I don't think a lot of listeners are very familiar with that. What kind of an organization it was like?

How did you join? And what was the organization all about? Well, the organization was about the creation of a world government. We were just out of the Second World War. This was 1945. and the organization was started by students during the war actually and very quickly caught on. It was the idea of world peace was really transient time

and various organizations, peace organizations were created. And the United World Federalists flew like crazy. I mean, it was gained membership overnight as soon as the war ended. And it had two sections. It had what was called an adult section, which was really community leaders, and a student section. And I was a student in those days at a place. called the Latin American Institute of New York.

It was a Spanish language program, essentially. And someone came and spoke to us about the world federalists, and I immediately joined the idea of a world organization for peace and justice seemed so natural at the time. And it was, it was a very gathered a lot of, students. And I finally ended up by working actually for the organization and becoming the student director. And then McCarthyism set in. And we were immediately accused of being too radical, being communists and so on and so on. And within the organization, there was a tendency to

lower our goals to meet with approval. And so it was happening today with the Trump administration. And the students were considered the most radical elements. And so they finally kicked us out of the organization. And so we created a new organization. And we were for a really for the, More than just world government, we emphasized decolonization. We had justice, world justice, and so on.

However, without the backing of the adult organization, it was difficult to stay in existence. It lasted about three or four years. Our organization was called World. And so when we seem to be failing too, because of lack of financial aid to continue organizing and traveling and speaking and so on, I went on a sort of an investigation tour of France, of Europe essentially, but aimed at France. And so I took off there. That's where I met Algerians and learned about their problems and saw the beginnings of the Algerian war.

Right, right. I do want to ask you about that, of course, and so much of the book is really about that centrally. And, you know, I do need to just point out that my co-host, Henry Hakamaki, also sent in a message saying that he vividly remembers reading this book a couple of years ago during the pandemic right before he moved to Russia. That's in fact where he is now. And he really would have enjoyed being part of this conversation and he loves the book. And the story, you know, you give begins really with your departure to France.

and then you start filling in some of the background. And your first impressions of France after the war were quite interesting. You know, it seems like it was really going through a lot of inability to really deal with its own history of many people who had been collaborating, you know, with the Nazi regime. and that was uncomfortable for people to really discuss or talk about. So it seemed like they wanted to sort of bury that. And the other issue seemed to be what you were alluding to, that there were a lot of Algerians who were colonized by France and were being, you know, their country was being occupied and exploited,

but that also many of the workers who had come to metropolitan France in places like Paris. where you were living, were also being completely marginalized and subject to racism. And so is that how you got involved in the Algerian freedom struggle? Maybe you could tell us a little bit about how you came to know about the problems that, you know, Algeria and Algerians were suffering under settler colonial rule by France. Well, maybe I should remind everyone that France had a 10-year anti-colonial war with Indochina, that is to say, Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam.

It lasted from about 1945 to 1954. It was about a 10-year war. And France was defeated, heavily defeated at Dean Bin Fu in 1954. And this, that war was also heavily financed by the United States to the point where American pilots, even piloted planes in that war. Then Algerian started their war in 1954. It started as a kind of low caste quality, not admitted to for years by the French.

They considered it just a manifestation. That's the way they sold it to the world. But actually, I mean, they were heavily at war. And again, supported by the United States with weapons and their politics at the UN and so on. And Algerian has actually fought for almost eight years before finally France gave up and admitted a defeat. well admitted defeat it was obviously a defeat

and they probably would never admit it but that's basically what happened and as far as I was concerned I was very much aware of the Algerian war starting

and there were demonstrations in Paris which I went to and so on. But actually, I only really got personally involved when I joined the staff back in the United States of the Algerian office. It was an office that was dedicated to getting the resolution passed by the United Nations.

Right, to recognize Algeria as an independent. Yes, well, they didn't recognize Algeria. They didn't recognize the need for independence until 1961. Algeria set up a very small office in New York in 1955 just after the beginning of the war. And that office maintained, it was a very small office. but it did keep journalists and delegations to the United Nations

aware of what was happening in Algeria and unfortunately neither the United Nations nor the opinion in America actually took hold of that of their information but finally

in 1960, the United Nations finally passed a resolution against colonialism. And then a year later, they finally recognized the need for independence of Algeria and support of that independence. Quite an amazing story. Yes, and you were. France liberated about 20. colonies in Africa in order to maintain Algeria as a dependent. And even those countries, generally speaking, did not support a resolution on Algerian independence because they

were held under France's strong hand. Yes, I recall actually reading some of France, Fanon's articles in Al-Mujahed decrying some of these countries that were given nominal independence within the umbrella of French interests in West Africa and that their currency, you know, there was a new currency that they had to use that was basically dependent upon and all the fiscal and monetary policy would be kind of coordinated and organized by France. And, you know, he was very keen to make a distinction between the process of real decolonization and the struggle for national sovereignty that was taking place in Algeria compared to these kind of neo-colonialist games. So when you bring that up, that really reminds me of that period. But I wanted to ask you, because you were very involved in these efforts working with the office, the Algerian office in New York.

what kind of work were you doing and what kind of environment was it? I mean, you know, New York where the UN was located, of course, would be the place for these international political efforts at recognition through the UN and so on. But I also got the sense from your telling of how much interaction there was with, anti-colonial movements around the world and new post-colonial nations that were also trying to collaborate and cooperate and how the Algerian mission was trying to seek support from them. And it reminded me, although you didn't discuss it very much in the book, I don't know if you mentioned it, but of course that 1955, the very same year that the Algerian struggle became, you know, was launched in a militant way by the FLN is also, of course, course, the Bandung Conference, the Afro-Asian conference, where you start to have the emergence of a third world block of nations that actually sees itself needing to collaborate somehow. So you were there in New York, kind of at the heart of where all of these efforts, you know, came together diplomatically at the UN. And I was just curious what kind of work were you doing and what was that atmosphere like collaborating with these groups?

We were a very small organization. We had powerful outlets, but we were a very small organization, five people, actually. Three Algerians and two Americans. The Algerians were all very good English speakers, and so they were capable of passing the message. in French, and Arabic, in English.

And we were, of course, supported by most of the Arab nations at the United Nations. I had a pass to go into the UN from the Tunisian government. And the other members of the staff had passes from other Arab countries. And so we could go in and out, and we could listen to the debates. we could contact delegations and talk to them, give them literature. That was our main job, was creating and giving literature out to the delegations. Our major exercise was really to get the United Nations to that resolution. And delicate, it was a rather delicate time also

because we were trying to get the United States support. But that was much more difficult. And at one point, the heads of our office, I'm how much he has seen Navajo Chalbyschandali went to Washington actually and tried to sort of

work the way into the State Department and talk to people and were told not to come back and then finally about 61 some secret talks

were arranged by the State Department what was interesting was In 1958, I believe, John F. Kennedy, as a senator from Massachusetts, stood up and made a tremendous speech in favor of Algerian independence. He had strongly attacked France for being at war during the Second World War on the wrong side, And being at war for 10 years in Indochina and now being at war for four years by then, because it was 1958, he made this speech. That was a quarter of a century of war. And most of it was supported by the United States.

So it was a very powerful speech. and I think it contributed to many events that happened later. When Algeria became independent, Ben Bella, who was the president at the time, took off of the United Nations, was invited to the White House, and had a famous little film, showing him with Kennedy and in a very casual and warm atmosphere. And that was heartwarming also.

And yeah, and I forget what else you asked me in. But anyway, that was, we operated in very restricted. and that very restricted atmosphere. Mind you, Bandung, it was the first international meeting where Algerian representatives were present. Right. And Bandung, as they wrote a resolution in support of Algerian and of a change in France's attitude towards the whole affair.

And it was after that that the, that, yeah, Zid and someone else wanted to the United Nations and tried to set up an organization in New York, and they did in 1955. But all of that is part of history now. Yeah, yeah, no, that was very important. a lot was happening in those few years, you know, a lot of different changes were taking. There was also a trip that Tito made in 1960 to the United Nations to set up the non-aligned movement. Right. And yes, that was, he was a very strong supporter also of Algerian independence.

There have been two marvelous films made about the photographer that Tito sent into the Algerian Warzone and who stayed for three years inside Algeria filming every day. And the marvelous documents, marvelous documents showed the buildup of the Algerian Army and its effectiveness, its competence, things that were hidden from the public. Right, that's so interesting that you mention, you know, these films and making of films and newsreels and documentaries and getting footage

seems very important. You even talk quite extensively about the significance of, I think it was the Portopac or some kind of like very a handy, portable film, you know, recorder that needed less, you know, less people to operate and could be taken, you know, by somebody to carry it. You know, much like, you know, the modern video recorder

made it easy for correspondence, you know, news correspondents. But this is an early stage of it. And it reminded me that you just, you were very attuned in your book. I think partly must be because you worked in so many facets of media, journalism, and communications as a translator to link people and serve as a, you know, somebody who could translate between French and English, but also as a journalist who was reporting, you know, you talk about the conference that you attended in Cuba and sending back. these reports, and you worked, it seems, also, I mean, I'm sure we'll get to all of this, but since we're talking about media and film and things, I wondered if maybe you might just talk a little bit more about how important and significant the political work of communication. Well, we take it so for granted now with social media and all of this.

Well, before this period, yeah. Yes, we're blazing trails. Cleaver was of course he was the minister of information of the Black Panthers and he was in tune with all of this and when he saw the porta back he was absolutely amazed had to get a copy it was a way of recording and sending the recordings out and practically instantaneously and this was a unknown at the time it was difficult but the Panthers by the way even managed

to set up a system by which the Porta-Pack films were given to someone on air at France and brought overnight to the United States

Wow to and ship immediately to someone in Philadelphia, yes. They could be disseminated from there, yeah. First, they document to the Black Panther Party. Yeah, it was quite amazing. That is amazing. These were revolutionary times for communication, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, and it seems like it was very important to have these alternative, Even then, now everybody talks about the importance of alternative media versus mainstream media. But at that time period, there was so little of what you would call the mainstream media. It was the big newspapers, a few TV channels, and the radio. Of course, there was, radio was very important. And, of course, we even have, you know, that's another wonderful essay by Franz Fanon in, you know, dying colonialism, right? in English, the translation of the title is that, as an essay about the radio and how important

it was as this kind of transformative people moving from just listening to silly things and music from his perspective, you know, things that may be, might have been enjoyable, but they weren't like politically helpful in organizing to suddenly it becoming a major tool where a peasant, you know, in the reef can be listening and understanding, hey, what's been happening, you know, in Indo-China and the French are, you know, losing at Dienben-Fu, and then this kind of giving inspiration, you know, for their own struggle. So this mass media and communications, you were there at the cusp of when these kind of changes and the information war was so, you know, important as well as the, the battle.

battlefield, you know, war. I mean, and so I'm just fascinated by your impressions of how important this was and and all the kind of work that you were doing in this field. You know, in, I think it was in 1957. Yeah, 1957, the Algerians themselves realized they were being blocked information-wise. And so they invited individual journalists into the Maki, into the war zones. And four Americans actually went. And one of them was a very good friend of mine, Catherine up to Graf.

And actually, four Americans went into Algeria secretly and took photos. came out and tried to write articles and photos and so with no success. It was all blocked. It was all blocked and there are, there's very, afterwards, very rarely that they were able to get into women's clubs or something like that and make that kind of contact. But the major outlets, information outlets in the United States ignored the really everyday activity of the Algerian war machine.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, in a way, we were just talking about how important it was to try and get the information out and the new techniques that were becoming available at that time and how important they were. In a way, it makes me wonder about today two things. I mean, one, there's no shortage, actually, of the information now if you want to see what's happening in Israel's genocidal assault on Gaza, we have all of these images, you know, but that hasn't necessarily also, I mean, it has had a huge impact, but it hasn't necessarily meant that these Western governments, for example, or even the governments in the Arab world are willing to take decisive action to do something.

you know, kind of serious about it. But also the other thing that it reminds me of is that you just mentioned these four American journalists who were intrepid and, you know, were willing to go into the war zone. You know, I've been a little surprised. And I wonder what you think about it, that there hasn't been more attempts from media around the world to try and get into, you know, to get images of Gaza, to get into. And, you know, part of it is, of course, course, that they're very deferential to the Israeli military. But secondly, is when you see how many journalists, at least Palestinian journalists inside Gaza, have been killed, even you can say assassinated, in fact, even just yesterday, an Al Jazeera journalist. And maybe that's

one reason why there aren't kind of mainstream and external media. workers and journalists reporting on the situation? Oh, yes. Well, some tried during the Algerian war, and we know that many tried here in the War against Scalza, Israeli genocide. I think there's close to 100 journalists. I think the number who have been killed has been is a little bit in excess of 200 now, apparently.

Oh, we did. Yes, yeah, yeah. Of course, it didn't, yeah. That's part of the genocide. Yeah. Essential part of the genocide. Yeah. I mean, we've also felt so helpless.

It's just, it's overwhelming. the feeling we have for Palestine. And a lot of it has to do with the fact that we are powerless. Well, that's one reason why this history is so fascinating to me. Because although there were a lot of problems that developed and things didn't necessarily turn out to creating the world, that it seems that people hoped for, that we're struggling for, that you were working for. But nonetheless, there was a hope and a confidence that change was possible.

And the kinds of people that you met in this kind of international world of anti-colonial and anti-racism, you know, activists, is a kind of network that I don't see existing now. But I wanted to ask you a little bit about it because I notice that today many, many more people are reading Fanon avidly because they see settler colonialism as the key problem in the Israel, Palestine, you know, the occupation of Palestine. And they think of him as one of the key and important thinkers who really understood how racism and oppression worked in. in colonialism. And you were somebody who, you know, met Fanon, worked alongside him in that era. Even as I recall from your book, you tell of an evening, you know, dancing with Fanon. And so I really wanted to get your impressions about him and about the significance of his thinking from your own personal,

perspective, having lived, worked, and fought, you know, for Algeria's freedom together. Yes, well, I actually met him in a quarre in Ghana, where he had his office. He was sent to Africa as the representative of the Algerian Liberation Movement, of the government, a provisional government of Algeria. And Kuma had invited them to set of an office. He had just been elected president of Ghana. And I was the organizer of a conference at the University of Accra. And he was one of the invited speakers.

And so we met and we became friends. And here was him. Muhammad Sanun and myself, Muhammad Sanun was the representative of Yerjima, the Algerian student organization during the war. And so we became kind of a political organization ourselves, the three of us, and we were to attempt to get resolutions passed by this organization, the World Assembly of Youth. And we were rather successful.

We also joined forces with someone from the Congo, the Minister of Youth from the Congo, who was killed alongside the Mongol. And we were everywhere talking about colonialism and talking about the Algerian law. then all three of us Mohammed and

Fanon and myself were very active politically and in those days you see conferences lasted for several weeks after several days so this went on and on and then when I went back to the United States

and joined the Algerian office, later on, he arrived in Washington with lopinia. And since he was a doctor, he knew very well where he was at medically at all times. And when we were informed in New York that he was had, arrived in Washington. I was the only person in New York

in the office who knew him. So they used to send me down on weekends to Washington to see him to make sure that he was all right, that he didn't need anything, and so on and so on. And so

he obviously knew where he was at. And it was it was a very emotional kind of contact that we had because it's difficult to watch a man die and especially when he was so knowledgeable. But at any rate, he stated over and over again

how much he missed his comrades from Algeria. His comrades from Algeria were mainly people who were heading up armed units within the country. And he felt their absence tremendously. And he felt his need for being attached to that struggle. very it was very important to him it kept him it kept his mind working and kept him kept him kept him alive yeah yeah it's such a shame that he wasn't able to see Algeria's freedom and spend time there in the you know post-colonial new nation

that was being forged. And it was not long afterwards. That's right. It wasn't long after. That's right. That the accords were signed and Algeria became its, you know, a free and independent country. But you did spend quite a bit of time in this new Algeria, which I find an amazing choice. You had been working in New York advocating on behalf of. recognition of their independence and on behalf of diplomatically and politically. But once that struggle was achieved, you decided to go and help build the new country.

Maybe you could tell us a little bit about what that was like, both exciting but also, I'm sure, very daunting. There were so many challenges faced and the way in which the French left after such a devastating period of brutal warfare and destruction that they had caused also the way they left was you know much like you know it reminds me a lot of like what happened with Haiti you know the the rebellion you know the slave rebellion fought for their freedom they managed to achieve it and then but as part of the negotiation you know they they were saddled with the debt for the you know the costs and the so-called losses that that France had so it just really hamstrung Haiti and something similar in some ways, seems like, you know, there was a very devastating way in which France left the free Algeria.

I guess about a million people left Algeria. Yeah. It was a country that had been devastated in many ways. On independence, Algerians were 95% illiterate. after 132 years of French colonialism. That's very meaningful. And it was also made recreating a country, an independent country much more difficult

because there were so few people who were trained, who were schooled and so on. And people did come from all over, from the Middle East, even for France. There were people of practically every nationality who came, who looked for a way of contributing something. And it was a very exciting time. But there was also another aspect that was very. important was that the Algerians were very conscious of the fact that others needed help.

And so they were helping out with liberation movements all over Africa and even outside of Africa in Latin America or Asia to set up their own, to supply their own organization, give them training and so on. Even someone like Nelson Mandela trained with the Algerian army during the war and during the Algerian war. And when he went back to South Africa, that was when he was arrested. It was quite amazing. Not only during the war did they do training, but after the war, they continued to train soldiers. and they offered space and help to the liberation organizations

to do propaganda work and so on. And they helped them with travel documents as well as with information. And we often had talks from different liberation movements on the Algerian radio, on the Algerian television in the newspapers and so on. And it was a really very active and very pro-independence spirit that was there at the time. It was very exciting. Yeah, I get the sense of that from your book. That's why you called it, I think, Algear's Third World Capital is because people from

across the third world came to Algeria because they were so supportive of anti-colonial struggles around the world and of the kind of collective project of trying to bring up the global south. So it became a place where you talk about like all these different leaders of resistance movements, you know, leaders in some of the successful ones would still come to Algeria for, you know, having a place where they could meet and gather and talk. And you also talk about the history of the African Union, you know, also that Algeria was very involved with all of that. I'm wondering what else you recall from that era that, you know, made it such an exciting place to be if you were interested in anti-colonial work.

It was extraordinary. And it contributed really. tremendously and then it sort of peaked in the all-African cultural festival that took place in I think it was 1969 and people from all over Africa from practically every independent country and from about six liberation movements all arrived in the city of Algiers and gave performance performances sang and talked and danced and put on plays and so on for about 10 days in Algiers. That's when the Black Panthers had a store, a storefront on one of the main thoroughfares of Algiers, where they gave out literature, made talks, even put on films every single day during the festival. It was quite extraordinary at times.

Yeah, I can imagine Algiers was the place to be that those 10 days. I mean, it sounded absolutely marvelous and exciting. Wonderful musicians like Archie Shep and Nina Simon. It was fabulous. It was absolutely fabulous. And at the end, there was an explosion of fireworks. And Archie Shep even went down into Algeria made a film with local musicians of the Tawarigs in the south of Algeria in the Sahara Desert. And we even talked about that during the festival and afterwards. It is quite amazing.

Yeah. Yeah. So this was the Pan-African cultural festival that you were very instrumental. Yeah, in organizing. Yes, Algeria felt very strongly African at the time and wanted to show that it was an African country, not only a Middle Eastern country, but it was definitely an African country and it contributed to African longevity. That's interesting. I mean, I think now there's been a lot more of a sense of regional.

kind of difference and separation, but that pan-African vision forged in this anti-colonial collaboration seems to have been very strong. It reminds me even that Nasser, for example, who I think was probably less engaged in a direct way than the Algerians were in these pan-Africanist pursuits. Nonetheless, in his own book, you know, on the revolution, you know, talked about Egypt being not only an Arab country and an Islamic country, but also an African country. And so these ideas of Pan-Africanism seemed to have been very important and vibrant at the time. Yes. Yes. Yes, there was a definite tendency to show, to prove that one was not only North African, but African. you know that was that it and yes it was an important level on the intellectual level there were

there were alongside the festival there was a actually a meeting of intellectuals of different of the different african countries who expressed their resolution to be more political more political on a cultural level. Culture was political. Very important now at the time. Yes, yes, fascinating. I mean, also today. Yeah, well, absolutely. I mean, I think there's a big legacy from those connections that were forged at the time of thinking that we had to have a new philosophy, we had to new political theory, we had to invent new ideas to express the new world that people were trying to build. So very exciting culturally and intellectually this period. You mentioned a little bit about the Black Panther Party that their arrival to Algeria

because it was seen as a place where you could be welcomed and accommodated, you know, one of the few places where you might get some resources and be able to get travel documents and and so on, that they arrived around the same time as this festival and were participating and ended up participating in it. But much of the next few, several years of your time in Algeria while you were doing other work, press work, and in other capacities as an employee of the Algerian state and government, is that it seems like you were essentially the liaison and contact for the Black Panthers for everything that they needed done.

You know, it seems like without you, I'm not sure what they would have done in Algeria. They didn't know French. They didn't know how the country worked and how to navigate it. Can you tell us a little bit more about what it was like? They were very unprepared, yes. They were unpickered.

The Cubans sent Eldridge telling him, that he was going to be welcomed to Algeria, but it wasn't actually so. They had not informed the Algerian government that they were sending him, that they were shipping him out. And so, but at the time, they arrived at a time when it was very easy to contact people and so on. And luckily, I was informed very early on

that they had arrived. And I knew the person in the FLN set up, who was in charge of liberation movements, and I got in touch with him immediately, and he immediately said, tell them that they're welcome, that they're welcome here. And so they immediately said about establishing themselves

and giving a press conference to announce their arrival and so on. It was all very exciting. At that time, the Black Panther Party hadn't lost its team yet. It was still a very active and well-heeled, well-thought-of movement in the United States. And it was only later that it started to deteriorate. But at that time, it was still a very active movement. It was exciting.

Yes, several people came immediately set up with Eldridge Cleaver and his wife, Kathleen. The Algerians gave them actually gave them a state-owned property to inhabit, gave them travel documents and it was quite amazing and so even tickets when they were wanted to travel elsewhere for different congresses or meetings and so on yeah it was a it was a real aid it wasn't just a resolution right and I mean they were also even as you said given something that they would call the embassy, you know, for the Black Panthers. And we're recognized eventually, I think, partly through some of your connections and requests on their behalf to secure official status as a liberation movement, which is like

being, you know, recognized as a nation, a national leadership in exile, as it were. And so that's really quite something. And it gave them a lot of institutional status. from which to be able to continue to operate and make communicates and do real political work. It was a difficult time. It was a difficult time for them. And it was difficult to operate in English when they were in a country where everyone spoke Arabic and French. And that was my main purpose was being the crossover.

between the two because I spoke both French and English. And, but then they gradually got on for themselves. They all learned some French, and Kathleen did very well as a translator. And it was quite amazing, yeah. Yeah, she seemed like a very impressive woman. I mean, you talked about the tour that you took back in the United States after the split had happened when there was a need to, you know, try and reconstitute the organization to some extent, promote the message and connect with the anti-war movement that was

really taking, you know, big shape during that period of the late 60s and early 70s against the Vietnam War. And you talked, I think, in the book about how impressive she was once you saw her in her element as a speaker, as a... Oh, yeah, she was great. She could really, she could really lay it on them. Yeah, she was amazing. And, yes, I got, I had not seen her in action before that. I mean, I'd only seen her as sort of the secretary of the organization in Algiers and discreet and so on.

But there I really saw her out in the open, and she was an amazing speaker, and had amazing contact with the audience. Unfortunately, the organization that they tried to set up was an organization of information. Information from all the countries around the world that they had been in action with in their time in Algeria and had a good relationship with and who were unknown. in the States and so they it was kind of a clearing setup where they were taking they hoped to take information from around the world put out bulletins and inform people and so on but it didn't unfortunately it didn't take off we did oh yes it didn't take off right it was an exciting trip wow yeah yeah I mean that's so interesting

You know, there were so many challenges and, of course, is a little bit different from some of the other kinds of struggles where you have colonists from outside who are a minority against the indigenous majority population. And so in a lot of these freedom struggles, it was a matter of activating, you know, the indigenous population and organizing them that spelled. the end of colonialism, but the struggle in the U.S. of course, was kind of complicated. But what seems interesting about the Black Panthers, and I wonder, since you were so closely involved with them and heard a lot about their analysis of the situation for African Americans in the U.S., and were intimately, of course, connected with the liberation movement against settler colonialism in Algeria, that what seemed interesting about the Black Panthers and maybe one of the things that made them such a dangerous organization to the U.S. state was that they had

this radical kind of analysis where they applied kind of colonialism and an anti-colonial sort of struggle, at least elements of it in their analysis of the black community's situation. open. They were very open about their support of Palestine, about their opposition to the war in Vietnam. At one point, Eldridge even tried to speak to soldiers on the border of Vietnam to tell them to react and so on. Yes, it made them, got them very involved with the international things that they had ignored before. They had, either they hadn't known about it or that they had been overwhelmed with the struggle within the United States, getting people to follow them. And they became openly solidarity oriented when they worked in Algeria. It was very interesting to see. Yeah, I wanted to, you've been so generous with your time. time. So I just had a couple of other questions and topics to raise with you. One comes and was

sent in from my co-host, Henry Hakamaki, who noticed in reading, you know, that there were a lot of personal sacrifices in various ways that somebody has to make to be committed to these revolutionary movements. And he noticed that, you know, there were a lot of periods where you have to be and others had to be separated from their partners, from people who they love. And, you know, he was interested in, you know, how do people, how do committed revolutionaries maintain, you know, their political fight and commitment in the face of, you know, the sacrifices. One might say not only the sacrifices of being apart from loved ones, but also the risk and the danger you know these aren't easy to be involved in these struggles and so we were just

interesting we were young that's one thing we were young and also we didn't see physically see the build-up of reactionary of reactionary government in the United States We didn't feel it the way we, by example, are feeling it today. And being in solid, activating, being an activist or being, showing one solidarity for movements had its pleasures also. You felt, you felt keyed up. You felt that you were participating in something that was bigger than you. and it was worth the sacrifice.

In fact, we didn't think in terms of sacrifice. It's just in terms of being helpful, of giving out. Quite amazing, how generous we were. They don't mean by me, but all sorts of people from different rocks of life gave amazing things to the movement. Yes, I mean, it was a movement. Yes, yeah, yeah. I noticed that in your account, there were a lot of times that you gave also to your time and energy and, you know, support and help to people who came through Algeria during that time that you lived there.

But, you know, at eventually you ended up being, having to. leave, Algeria, not through your choice, but political circumstances in the state changed and it no longer was possible for you to stay and you had to move and spend some years in France and then later back in the United States. But I noticed that you still maintained political commitments. Maybe you weren't as actively involved in a revolutionary kind of project of building a new post-colonial state like you'd been in Algeria, but you still kept engaged with a lot of political resistance and movements. And I'm just wondering, you know, if maybe you want to talk a little bit about that, but also, you know, I mean, I think we've been reflecting at least a few

times in our conversation about how much things have changed. And you just were saying that, you know, under the current administration, and one could say even under Biden, but also especially under Trump, is that, you know, the forces of reaction seem to be pretty oppressive. I'm wondering, what do you take from that history? And how have you maintained your political commitments, you know, after your exciting time in these important movements that transformed history. But in your later life, you still have maintained some political commitments. What's that been like? And how do you reflect on that time and how things have changed?

Well, my heart is open to Algeria. It's fairly so it's part of me. And so I'm not judging as much as I would normally. And we now have a situation in the United States where one of my dearest causes and a cause that's very close to Algeria, Palestine is being stripped to nothing. It's unbelievable. And Algeria has always been very pro-Palestinian, extremely so,

because the Algerians have a very clear idea that Palestine is facing a similar struggle to theirs with France. And I do remember During the 68 war Algerians was out in the street Literally crying Tears rolling down their face When they heard the news

About Palestine It's very emotional Because it's very definitely a part of their own struggle And I think it's maintained until today it's the same today it's um and uh what else to say there's not there's um such strong sentiment involved you know total identification and there's a real identification yeah yeah yeah i i feel very definitely part of that

attitude and sentiment and political initiative, whatever I could do. Now, it's a heart rending. It is. It's a very difficult time to feel so helpless, which is why I think it's important that we keep talking about it,

we keep doing things. We keep showing our solidarity every way that we can because if you just, you know, passively witness these horrors, it's really, it can be so devastating. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's unbelievable. Well, I know you've been so generous, you know, with your time already.

I don't want to keep you too much longer, you know, maybe just one last thing. You concluded your book. Actually, interestingly, you went back in time, even before the main kind of story that you talked about that's focused and centered on Algeria and the liberation struggle there. You went all the way back to your childhood and filled in this kind of impression. And I wonder if that's because coming back. to the United States, it reconnected you, you know, of course, with your full life story and your family and background. And you talked a little bit then about, you know, in this final sort of chapter about growing up as a Jewish American and the kinds of racism and anti-Semitism

and exclusion that existed in that time. And I was just so fascinated. and impressed with the way in which this gave birth for you to a more universalist sense of commitment against, you know, about the human dignity of all peoples. And I'm wondering if you have any thoughts or reflections on that, because of course we are, we were just speaking about, you know, what's happening in Palestine now. And there are a lot of people from your kind of community or background who maybe wouldn't have taken the same approach and develop the same kind of political consciousness that you have. And so I'm wondering how you feel about that. And, you know, if you have any final thoughts about what it was like, you know, growing up as a, you know,

a minority group in the U.S. that at the time was really excluded and where the there really was a very serious, you know, racism directed against Jews in the United States. Well, the first thing that comes to my mind is that I know what anti-Semitism is. It's not what our president thinks it is or wants to tell us it is. I mean that. I lived at a time as a child. Even as a child, where I was excluded from different things because I was Jewish and so on. So I really have a clear idea of what anti-Semitism is,

and I have a clear idea of the anti-Semitism of our leaders today. And I think they can wash it away. They can't. It's a difficult subject. And I saw, I would go every day to the demonstrations at Columbia University. And what I saw was political action. And responsible political action, not anti-Semitism. There was none of it.

And it was, it's it's terrible what I've seen now of universities sort of kneeling to the administration. And I'm sure that a lot of us are very ashamed of them, yes. and it's a hard subject for me but as I say I grew up at a time when anti-Semitism was very much out in the open that was

I mean the scout leader let me join the troop and she says no Jews allowed I mean it was as simple as a lot. And for a child has a lifelong import.

Yeah. It's hard to talk about. But at the same time, I guess we must. And at any rate, what I see today is that that

many Jews are many Jews are standing up for Palestine. Here in the United States, there was a tremendous swell of pro-Palestinian sentiment. And I will finish by organizing demonstrations and so on, and standing up and screaming. But it is difficult.

It is difficult. Yeah. Yeah. But many Jews have a clear idea of what's going on. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. Well, again, Elaine, I really want to thank you for sharing all of these not just reminiscences, but your analysis about the world and even about how it's relevant to our time and your reflections on continuing the struggle today. I think it's very important for people to recognize and realize, you know, this history took place. place and that there's the possibility maybe to reforge some of those global alliances and

connections of people seeking freedom and struggling for liberation. Your example is I think very inspirational to people. I'm so glad that you shared it in a book. I know many people asked you to write it and you finally got set down to write your story. But it's a beautiful and wonderful book. And I would encourage all of the listeners and viewers to go out and get a copy and read it, Algiers, Third World Capital, Freedom Fighters, Revolutionaries, Black Panthers. And again, it's just been a real pleasure to meet you and to have the benefit of your experience and wisdom. So thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today. pleasure

listeners you know tune in again we have lots of content like this this has been a particularly special episode I think but we have a lot of other discussions and with scholars and activists

so do tune in and until next time peace and solidarity to you all solidarity solidarity those are the words Thank you. Thank you.