Guerrilla History - Stand with Cuba Against the State Sponsors of Terrorism List w/ Calla Walsh & Jorge Rocha

Episode Date: June 23, 2023

In this important episode, we discuss some real-world efforts to stand in solidarity with Cuba by the National Network on Cuba, as well as how Cuba's placement on the State Sponsors of Terrorism List is a complete sham that continues to hurt the Cuban people.  Be sure to connect with NNOC, and take part in their June 25 Weekend of Action!  Find out more by checking out their website or following them on twitter @NNOCuba. Calla Walsh is a cochair of the National Network on Cuba and was one of their coordinators for the International May Day Brigade.  You can follow her on twitter @CallaWalsh. Jorge Rocha is on the steering committee for the International Committee of DSA, citywide leadership committee for DSA, and cohost of the podcast Everybody Loves Communism. You can follow him on twitter @LineGoesDown. Help support the show by signing up to our patreon, where you also will get bonus content: https://www.patreon.com/guerrillahistory 

You remember Dinn-Vin-Bin-Bou? No! The same thing happened in Algeria, in Africa. They didn't have anything but a rank. The French had all these highly mechanized instruments of warfare. But they put some guerrilla action on. Hello and welcome to guerrilla history. podcast that acts as a reconnaissance report of global proletarian history and aims to use the lessons

of history to analyze the present. I'm one of your co-hosts, Henry Huckermanaki, joined as of this moment by only one of my usual co-hosts. We have Brett O'Shea, who is host of Revolutionary Left Radio and co-host of the Red Menace podcast here right now. Hello, Brett. How are you doing? I'm doing very well today. And we will also be joined momentarily by Professor Adnan Hussein, who, of course, is historian and director of the School of Religion at Queen's University in Ontario, Canada. He's not here to say hello himself yet, but he'll be here within the next few minutes. So listeners, just be ready for him to pop in. Before I introduce our guests and our topic, I want to remind you that you can keep up with guerrilla history and all of the things that we're releasing by following us on Twitter at Gorilla underscore Pod.

That's G-U-E-R-R-R-I-L-A-U-Sore pod. And you can help support the show, keep us up and running, and continue to make you. the show by going to patreon.com forward slash guerrilla history. Again, guerrilla being spelled, G-U-E-R-R-I-L-A history. Every contribution, large or small, goes a long way to making sure that we can continue to do this. And in return, we try to give you some bonus content as much as we're able to anyway. And on that note, then, let's turn to our guests today. We have two great guests. We have Cala Walsh and Jorge Rocha, who are both from the National Network on Cuba. So hello, Cala. Hello, Jorge. I'm going to have you each

introduce yourselves to the listeners in turn. So perhaps Calla, you can start. And then Jorge, you can jump in right after she's done. Great. Thanks so much for having us on. My name is Calla Walsh. I'm one of the co-chairs of the National Network on Cuba, which I think we're going to explain in a couple moments. I'm 19. I'm from Boston, Massachusetts. I'm about to move to D.C. And most of my work revolves around organizing to end the U.S. blockade on Cuba. And most recently, I was also one of the coordinators for NNOC's International May Day Brigade, which we led the U.S. delegation on to Cuba to celebrate May Day. And I'm really excited for our conversation today. I remember when I was younger very clearly, like, searching what is Marxism in Spotify and seeing like RevLeft

Radio come up as the first podcast. So it's really cool to be here with you guys now since guerrilla history is also just an indispensable political education resource. And I can't wait to talk to you guys about Cuba. Great. I don't know we're sharing our ages, but I'm Jorge Rocha. I'm 27. I work with Kala on the national work on Cuba. because I'm on the steering committee for the international committee for DSA. I'm also on the citywide leadership committee for NYCDSA because I live in Newark City. And I'm also the co-host for a podcast called Everbillus Communism, a left-to-steering history podcast with Jamie Peck and Aaron Dorp.

And I guess I could announce this now, but I'm also, for people who are listening that love the show, but are also in DSA for some reason, you can, be aware that I am running for National Political Committee candidacy at the National Convention in August. So if you are a national delegate or if you know anyone that is, be sure to bug them.

If I'm a communist and I'm running to be on the NPC. Yeah, likewise was Cala was a big a fan of Rev Laugh Radio and a Red Menace, big influence on the way we do the podcast. First of all, yeah, thank you both so much for those kind words. It really makes me feel wonderful to hear that stuff.

Thank you. Yeah, it's always great to hear when we have guests that are listeners of the show. And it happens surprisingly often. I guess it shouldn't really surprise me. We have a fairly decent listeners. And very smart listeners, that's right, listeners. You are very brilliant and especially for listening to the show. But yeah, it's always really nice to hear. And I know, Kala, I've known you for a little while. And we have a little project that we're working on, which we won't announce too much about right now. But that'll be something for people to hopefully see coming out in the future. And Jorge, it's really nice to, have a communist running within, you know, to run for DSA leadership, which is, you know, excellent to hear. But before we talk about the topic today, which is going to be the brigade to Cuba, the state sponsors of terrorism lists, and how it relates to Cuba, as I mentioned in the introduction, you're both members of the national network on Cuba. Can you perhaps discuss what is the national network on Cuba? What are some of the actions that they have taken in past years? know that this is an organization that's been around for, I think, over 30 years at this point. So, you know, tell us about what is the work that the NNOC does, what are some of the ongoing actions that they take part in, and what is kind of their mission?

Yeah, so the national network on Cuba is a coalition. It functions as an umbrella organization for about 57 different organizations that are members. And we work with many other orgs that aren't necessarily members. And those groups include socialist and communist parties, you know, DSA is a member, the Communist Party is a member, all African people's revolutionary party and several more, as well as local Cuba solidarity groups, organizations that run solidarity travel to Cuba, faith groups, any progressive-minded groups, and we're all united around our goals of lifting the blockade and of respecting Cuba's sovereignty and right to self-determination. and right to live free from U.S. imperialist domination. So I will know there that we're not an explicitly socialist org, although I think it's fair to say most people active are socialists and very proud defenders of the Cuban Revolution and the socialist projects. But we also are building a broader coalition of people who aren't necessarily, you know, super politically

conscious revolutionaries yet, but who can see the inhumanity of the U.S. blockade and can unite with other forces to, you know, struggle to lift it. And our group was founded in the early 90s. I've been a coach here since last November, so perhaps I'm not the best person to speak to our history, but we do have a long history of coordinating these efforts by the U.S. people to make our voices loud and clear that we don't support these genocidal sanctions on Cuba. And one thing NNOC did really significantly was playing a big role in the freedom campaign, for the Cuban five, who were five political prisoners who were trying to infiltrate, you know, terrorist groups in the U.S. that were backed by the U.S. government that were bombing

Cuban planes and hotels to try to overthrow the revolution. And they were locked up by the U.S. Many of them were given multiple life sentences, but they are all living free in Cuba today because of this solidarity effort in this international campaign to free them and reunite them with their families. So that's a little bit about NNOC. Jorge, I'd love to pass it over to you to fill in anything that I missed. Yeah, absolutely. I think it was a great overview in terms of the purpose of the national network on Cuba. An important aspect about coalition work for those listening who perhaps don't have as much experience in terms of organizing, or at least organizing outside of very clearly, strictly socialist circles is there is a lot of potential

in terms of particularly this issue but also a variety of issues that you can build consensus that can go very far in terms of improving the material conditions that oppress people around the world that may not necessarily fall under the line of, oh, like, I mean, I just ask yourself,

does it matter more if the person that's going to be in your coalition necessarily agrees with the Cuban government or the communist part of Cuba but will support removing sanctions or would you rather just like a completely electric purity? I mean, if like we're all materialist, if we're sincere about that, we care that people in Cuba are free from the embargo and getting the food and resources that Cuba needs to be able to actually develop itself.

So it's, and that's why we work with Progressive. I think there's been like, we work with like Congress people that are toughly not socialists, but are in favor of removing the sanctions on Cuba. I think it's incredibly admirable and important work. So, you know, hats off to both of you and to everybody who struggles in that organization. It's really an important issue. And, you know, I really am incredibly proud to see people, you know, fighting this fight. Let's go ahead and get into the questions here. And before we get into the specifics of Cuba, it might be helpful just to start off with the question about what the SSOT or state sponsors of terrorism list actually is. What are the economic and political impacts on countries? who are listed on this list, just kind of give us the basics. Then we'll get into the specifics of how Cuba falls into this topic.

Yeah, sure. I could start this off. So the history, I mean, we can talk about the state sponsors to terrorism lists, some other time, what have you, but in terms of like how it pertains to Cuba specifically,

it wasn't originally on the list when it was created in 1939, but very shortly after it was created, that was created in 1982, it was added on the SSOT list by Ronald Reagan, our most lovely president that we all enjoy.

But in a report by the think tank for Congress, like the Congressional Research Service, there's an article called Cuba and the state sponsor to terrorism list that they themselves acknowledged that when Reagan added Cuba in 1982, that, quote, the addition of Cuba was not considered significant at the time

since the United States already had comprehensive economic sanctions on Cuba. dating back to the early 1960s as a result, the economic sanctions associated with being added to terrorism list have had no practical significance. I think this is really important to note because while there are all these extra legal restrictions on Cuba, because Cuba is so unusually focused on in terms of sanctions by the United States and the blockade, that this is just kind of a additional thing that the United States

wants to add onto Cuba just because it wants to. There is a really difficult congrueroons in terms of like the significant sanctions with respect on Cuba. And it's interesting to note

that the report itself said that the Reagan administration actually did not provide an explanation in the Federal Register for why they put the Cuban the state sponsor of terrorist limits. For those they don't know,

the Federal Register is the official journal of the federal government of the United States that contained government agency rule, proposed rules, and notices, and it's basically the step before it gets compiled and created into the permanent code of federal regulations.

This show kind of the brazeness that the Reagan administration was taken that we're not even to try to give a legal, formal explanation why we're doing. If we're just going to do it, you just have to believe us. But aside from that, the consistent thing that's been noted over and over again with respect to various government agencies when Cuba was put on the state-sponsored terrorism list originally was the CIA's pattern of international terrorism, which was published in June and 2001 for the year 1980s, says that Havana openly advocates armed revolution as the only means for leftist forces to gain power line America, and Cubans have played an important role in facilitating the movement of men and women in with weapons into the region. But also, Reagan in a State of the Union address in 1982

said that toward those who would export terrorism and subversion in the Caribbean and elsewhere, especially Cuba and Libya, who elected impermanus, February 1982, a month later after the State of the Union address, the Department of State published research paper titled Cuba's renewed support for violence in Latin America, presented in December 1981, to the subcommittee on Western Hemisphere Affairs on the Senate. Foreign Relations Committee and essentially said, asserted that the Cuba encouraged terrorism in the hope of provoking indiscriminative violence and repression in order to weaken

government legitimacy and attract new conflicts to armed struggle. This is a really important point here. The paper maintained Cuba was most active in Central America, especially Nicaragua, really relevant to that period of time, where I wanted to exploit and controlled revolution in El Salvador and Guatemala, where one is it over to the government. This is like, again, I'm quoting from the congressional racial service paper. It's not my opinion here.

But point is very consistently there's this deep concern throughout, in terms of right after the Cuba was added to the stage bottle of the terrorist list with respect to assisting or a leaf allegedly assisting like leftist guerrilla formations throughout Latin America. And very consistently it's been not been the group. that Cuba has been alleged to be assisting. In 2003, again from the report, State Department document brought in the explanation of why Cuba was designated as a state sponsor of terrorism in 1982,

saying that the rationale set forth in documents from 1981 and 1982 described above that in addition to that Cuba was providing support for other groups such as Puerto Rican nationalist group known as the Armed Forces National Liberation, the Faro Bundo Marti National Liberation Front in El Salvador, and the Sandinista National Liberation Front in Nicaragua. You know your guerrilla history. You know your revolutionary history.

You know that these are organizations that all have consistently been interested in armed struggle, not an accident why there's been the alleged ties to these organizations by Cuba, that the State Department, CIA, and the United States government is put against it, has consistently been of a leftist bent. Yeah. Brett, oh, sorry, I just want to make one mention. then you can hop in Cala. So, you know, we're talking about the case of Cuba specifically here on the state sponsors of terrorism list. I just want to let the listeners know that we do

have plans to cover the state sponsors of terrorism list in a more global sense and talk about all of the countries that are present and have been present on the state sponsors of terrorism list to impact on these various countries. But seeing as this episode is Cuba-focused, we're going to focus primarily in the role of the state sponsors of terrorism list vis-a-vis Cuba. So be aware that there are many other countries that are and have been on the list to varying degrees of, you know, crushingness on those countries from, you know, the impacts of being on this list. And we will talk about that in the future. But right now we are focusing heavily on Cuba. So sorry for the interruption, Cal.

Feel free to go ahead. Thanks. Yeah. Thank you, Jorge, for that great overview of the SSOT list and kind of the foggy reasoning. that the U.S. has always used to justify Cuba's designation as a terrorist state. And like you said, like this designation is really just another addition to the hundreds and hundreds of sanctions on Cuba. So that's why when we are rallying, the NNOC is organizing these off-the-list rallies next week, we're calling to lift all U.S. sanctions. We're not just calling to remove Cuba from the list.

And I think you make a really important point, which is that the threat Cuba and the Cuban revolutionary movement has always posed to the U.S. is that Cuba could ignite a revolution across Latin America and across all of America, not because Cuba's going into those places and exporting revolution, but because Cuba gives this example of workers rising up and taking control over their own destinies. And I think that gets to another important aspect of the SOT list. And it's important to remember that the U.S. war on Cuba, it kind of has like three main parts. One, there's the economic war, the blockade, which is happened. As soon as the Cuban revolutionary government took power, there's also the covert operations that have been going on by the CIA, the National Endowment for Democracy, funding so-called

democracy programs, trying to overthrow the revolution from within. But there's also a media warfare. And I think that is a huge part of why the U.S. designates Cuba as a terrorist state. And even people from within the state department have admitted this. They've acknowledged that the idea that Cuba is sponsoring terrorism is bogus and that really they're calling Cuba terrorists to justify the blockade, to justify the logic of continuing this economic warfare against Cuba because the word terrorism has always been used against enemies of the U.S., whether it's Iraq, whether it's Palestinians, whether it's Cuba, or whether it's people within the U.S., the Black Panther Party, stop cop city protesters. It has always used to,

you know, dehumanize and demonize these groups and justify using extreme measures against them. And it's the same case for Cuba. So we can also get into some of the more specific restrictions that this designation carries and how that impacts Cuba's ability to trade and to just be part of the international economy. Yeah, incredibly well said, incredibly important points. I'll let Henry ask the next question here in a second or on, none, whoever's up next. I just wanted to make a point And this is very obvious to everybody here and probably most people listening. But on the U.S. Department of State's website right now, it says countries determined by the security, the Secretary of State to have repeatedly provided support for acts of international terrorism are designated, right?

And then you're talking about, you know, their justification of putting Cuba on the list is that it seeks to use violence to destabilize governments and the massive monumental world historical hypocrisy of the United States. who does this to country after country after country, you know, wagging their finger at Cuba, who actually doesn't really do it to any extent that the U.S. has. I mean, you can think of the Contras in Latin America. You can think of the Ukraine situation right now, the 2014 Maidanku, literally arming and funding Nazis in Ukraine. I mean, fascists in Chile, Venezuela, Indonesia, what they did to Libya, Iraq, Afghanists. I mean, the list is just getting started. And so it's extra ironic that the United States morally grandstands. to the entire world about these issues that the United States and the whole world knows this

does 10 times worse than any of the country on this list. It's mind-boggling and posterity will look back and be astonished that we put up with it for so long. Yeah, just to echo that, even if we're talking within the context of Latin America, the United States is and has been far more active in meddling in other countries' politics than Cuba has ever been within their own region. Cuba, yes, has given aid in support to various groups and various countries at various times. The United States is always explicitly and implicitly trying to play various groups within countries to their own benefit against the will of the people, against what is in the best

interests of the people of those countries. The biggest terrorist state in the history of the world is the United States in recent history. So the fact that they're trying to label other states as terrorist states, States is, as you said, Brad, the epitome of irony, just to try to put a definition on terrorism, it is to say that the United States will bend this definition in any way to label a country that they are antagonistic with as a sponsor of terrorism. And Cuba is no stranger to this. Cuba has been labeled as a state sponsor of terrorism explicitly because the United States is antagonistic with Cuba, rather than for any real-world

justification that is in excess of something that the United States themselves does. I mean, anything that Cuba has done in its history, especially since the revolution, but even prior to that when they were a puppet state of the United States, it pales in comparison. So, again, just to underscore the fact that there is this rank hypocrisy from the United States, States, but just the usage of the term state sponsor of terrorism allows for the usage of the term terrorism in a very political way to advance a certain country's goals. And when that country is the United States and they have a predominant role within the world system, it allows for that twisting of that term to be weaponized in a way that is disproportionate within the world system.

So that was just, you know, a little bit of exposition on my part. I apologize. But to get into the next question. So can we just talk a little bit about how phony this charge of Cuba being a state sponsor of terrorism is? Because, I mean, we mentioned some of the reasons why they have been included on the list, but the fact that they are being labeled as a state sponsor of terrorism, again, is blatant political posturing and using this as a political term in order to beat Cuba rather than actually any sort of realistic designation. for the state. So if we can talk about how, you know, flawed this designation is in the case of Cuba. Yeah. So like Jorge said, the reasons originally used to justify Cuba's listing, like

in the 80s, were because of Cuba's support for national liberation movements around the world, Cuba played a huge role in Africa fighting against the colonial presence there, against U.S. in South African-backed apartheid forces invading Angola. And of course, the U.S. didn't like that and would call that so-called terrorism. Now the excuses that Trump used to add Cuba back to the list, just to go over a little bit of that history, you know, Obama had this period of normalization in 2014, 2015, he took Cuba off the list. He lifted some sanctions. Obviously, this was still aimed at regime change through a different set of tactics, but ultimately

had great, you know, impacts for the U.S. and Cuban people to have the U. this renormalization of relations and establishment of diplomatic relations for the first time since before the revolution. And Trump added Cuba back to the state sponsors of terrorism list on January 11th, 2021, a couple of days before his term ended, a couple of days after the January 6th Capitol insurrection. And over the course of his term, but especially around the election to really, you know, rile up extreme right-wing like Florida, Cuban-American voters, Trump added 243 new sanctions on Cuba and really doubled down on reversing everything that Obama had done that was positive and increasing just the hawkishness of these sanctions.

And the reasons he used to justify were one that Cuba was supposedly harboring U.S. fugitives, which is also not, you know, a justification because the people he's talking about, like, for example, Assad of Shakur were fleeing political persecution. and attempts on her life in the U.S. And it also is not really sensible because, for example, like Roman Polanski fled to France. The U.S. didn't label France a terrorist state for harboring him. There's so many other examples of people fleeing to other countries

that the U.S. didn't call terrorists. And then the second reason, which I think is generally more talked about, is the peace talks between Colombia and the National Liberation Army or ELN, a guerrilla group, which Cuba hosted. And these have been going on for several years. It's not just Cuba that is involved as also the Vatican, it's Norway, its U.S. allies, who have repeatedly praised Cuba's role in these peace talks. And actually on June 9th, just a few days ago, more successful talks concluded in Cuba, the delegations of the Colombian government, and the E.L. signed a historic six-month bilateral ceasefire, and the progressive Petro government in Colombia

has repeatedly called to take Cuba off the list. They've called Biden's listing of Cuba as a profound act of diplomatic injustice. But in 2019, there was a right-wing government in Colombia, and they wanted Cuba to extradite some of the ELN fighters who had asylum there, and Cuba refused to, as was agreed upon in the peace talks agreements, and that is what Trump used to justify listing Cuba. But obviously, this isn't a justification because the very people that he's using to justify are calling for Cuba to be taken off. So I'll pass it back to Jorge, if there's anything I miss there. I think that's great. I do want to mention something from earlier to tie to what we're talking about now, is even if you take the argument that the United

state government uses in terms of why Cuba is a terrorist state or a state sponsor of terror. It falls apart when you consider more of the broader history, you know, Brett was kind of mentioning before, but like a broader

history in terms of Cuba and the United States has involvement with it that because the U.S. propped up regime in Cuba with respect to, to Petista, but obviously the United States was sponsoring, you know, the terror regarding that, right?

But even if you, even if, like, say, even if you take the argument that the United States is saying, take it at face value, you even accept it, okay, yeah, Cuba is a state sponsor of terror. Well, who's responsible for this, right? There was a moment in time when Cuba, after his revolution, like the Fidel Castro and the communist party, like the revolutionary, really tried to have Google. relationship with the United States. You know, Bill Ocatcher went to the United States, but all over. Members of the United States really thought, oh yeah, this seems great. I mean, there's

a speech that El Castro gave at Harvard University where the person speaking said, he was like a George Washington of Cuba, like saying very lot ofatory things. And the only reason that Cuba isn't like closer to the United States is because the United States made it that way.

So, like even if you completely accepted, there is a reactive, there's a reactive force here, right? It's like it's a reaction to the United States refusing to have any normal relations with Cuba. Why? Because the United cannot stand and allow for any people, any oppressed people to decide. No, we're going to decide to govern ourselves now and we're going to view each other as equals. Yeah. Briefly, sorry, Dunn, one, one quick second, that interview that you were talking about where he was compared to George Washington was right after the revolution. It was Ed Sullivan.

famously went down and talked to Fidel in English and said things along the lines of, you know, many American people are supporting your fights for liberation and, you know, we're viewing you as the George Washington figure for Cuba. This was like in the weeks following the success of the Cuban Revolution. And Ed Sullivan of all people, very strange character for be hosting that interview, but alas, yeah, I just wanted to throw that out there. So listeners, if you want to find it, it was an interview that Ed Sullivan did with Fidel in 1959. And really quick, I just want to say it's an insult to Fidel to compare him to George Washington. Washington is down here and Castro is a chair, but nevertheless.

Yeah, well, that's just reminded us also of that trip that Jorge was referring to. He came to New York, met Malcolm X at the Teresa Hotel, was, you know, welcomed by thousands of Harlemites. You know, so there were other paths that could have been taken clearly. But as you pointed out, acting independently, particularly in like the Western Hemisphere was not going to be tolerated by U.S. imperial masters. But you've been talking a lot about the obvious double standards and hypocrisy of this whole construct of the state sponsor of terror list. And I just wondered if maybe we could talk a little bit more widely about how the U.S. weapon, this term terrorism against its enemies, how, you know, what actually constitutes in the kind of logics of U.S. imperial state, a terrorist state. And I guess what I note is that even before the

start of the global war on terrorism, where, you know, there was an umbrella of military imperialist engagement around the world that could be used, Cuba was put on the state sponsor list. Syria was, you know, the inaugural member in 1979. So this is well before the sort of George Bush era. So what does this kind of term terrorism mean for the U.S.? And how has it weaponized it? And what is its sort of general definition of a terrorist state? Is it just a state that supports liberation movements against countries whose governments the U.S. supports? I mean, what's at stake? in this in this construct i think when the u.s uses the term terrorism it is really devoid of all meaning it is whatever the u.s wants it to mean to justify whatever the u.s wants to do against those countries and you know the other countries listed on the ss.o t list right now are iran uh syria and the dprk north korea and i think if you showed like the average u.s citizen that list they'd probably be um a lot more

surprised that Cuba is on that list versus the other countries. And obviously, in my view, none of those countries should be on the list. None of those countries are so-called terrorist states, and they are really victims of U.S. back terrorism. But I think in terms of like the average U.S. persons, like political consciousness, they don't see Cuba as a threat in any way. There's actually a poll recently that 0% of U.S. people see Cuba as a serious threat to the U.S. Whereas these other countries on the list have in recent years been much more demonized and in the news and justifying, you know, warfare and manufacturing consent to like bomb and sanction these countries more, whereas Cuba has almost been on the back burner. And I think that gets to why Cuba is labeled as a terrorist state is because there is no other way that the U.S. could justify upholding the most long, like prolonged, frule. severe unilateral sanctions in the world without lying about Cuba, without building up this

complete demonization to justify these sanctions. And not only to justify the sanctions, but to justify, you know, continuing this absurd policy that is condemned by 96% of other countries on earth, including some of the U.S.'s closest allies, Canada, the U.K., France, they all vote to condemn the U.S. blockade. So I think in those cases, is where the U.S. is, you know, pursuing this, like, foreign policy that is, can, can be isolating, like, internationally or that doesn't have full of support. They use the word terrorism, because once they use the word terrorism, they can justify doing anything, whether it is sanctions or whether it is bombs or blockades. It is, it is a word that carries extreme weight

in the, in the, like, U.S. average person's consciousness that in Stokes fear and, you know, can justify whatever the U.S. imperialists deem necessary to crush these so-called enemy states. Yeah, I just, I think that's absolutely right on. And I think the point that you made about how terrorism authorizes labeling something as terrorism authorizes any response, you know, whether proportional or disproportional, it is sort of the framing of something outside. of the law outside of, you know, any boundaries of political military convention, right? It is the great, you know, a crime of international relations. So it's what authorizes doing pretty much anything against it. That's what seems to be at stake in the use of the term, you know, terrorism. I think that was a very good point. Yeah, I just want to add on a little bit

more with like some specific examples of how the terrorist designation has impacted U.S.-Cuba relations since Trump added Cuba back to the list. So of course, you know, it restricts like getting foreign assistance from the U.S., arms exports, loans from the World Bank, but it has also prevented Cuban Americans from transferring money to their family in Cuba. It has stopped faith-based groups in the U.S. from sending humanitarian supplies. It has prevented U.S. universities from working with Cuban academics and institutions. And I think if you told that to like the average U.S. person, they'd think that's absolutely insane. But once you put terrorists into the equation, like that is what is used to justify these extreme measures, which are not

just a blockade of trade. It is a blockade of people and academic and cultural and religious exchange. So in an extreme word like terrorism and this official list, which is created and maintained only by the U.S. but has these large extraterritorial impacts because of the U.S.'s immense power over the global financial system. That is how it maintains those justifications and is attempting to isolate Cuba internationally, just like it is to Iran, Syria, the DPRK. And of course, it's not really working. The U.S. has tried this in many times throughout history, whether it's using the terms like the Axis of Evil or the state sponsors of terrorism list. It is always trying to create this idea of these rogue states when really the U.S.

is the rogue state that is asserting its imperialist dominance, its foreign military base that is all around the world. And Cuba is actually engaging in diplomacy through peace, through sending doctors, not bombs. Yeah, I think we could talk a lot about this in the future, but there's an executive order that was done by President Tortoise Bush. shortly after 9-11 called Executive Order 13224. I recommend everyone look at it. And you can just find us on the State Department website. And you could see like there's a list that's been maintained now for 22 years now

of all the different groups and individuals that have been designated as terrorists. And it's really fascinating, you know, odd-podge of groups that have almost nothing to do with each other. I mean, looking at the original, like the first tranche here, you have a lot of people who were, were, you know, involved as like groups that very vaguely could be lumped into what happened in September 11th, but also maybe not. Like, you have Al-Qaeda, but then you'll have Hesbola included, which is like, well, I'm not sure that's like, really exactly what happened, but, but then you look a few days later on October 31st, you have inclusion, shining path. the real IRA and the popular front for the liberation of Palestine and ELN, right, or the Kurdistan Workers Party, it's like, well, what does that have to do is September the 11th, right? It's like, well, so it's if the meaning of terrorism from the point of view of the U.S. is really just any group that has an interest and active practice towards trying to combat the U.S. Empire. Now, that's, and it's like a objective statement in the sense that I'm not making a judgment about, like, say, whether a group is good or not, but I think it's important to note that because then it, it, all the propaganda, I mean, you mentioned like the axis of evil, right?

It's like, well, it's like, well, very much a clear propaganda term that was definitely workshopped to try, what's the way we could do to be like, no, everyone we say are bad or evil in the mindset was like, oh, These group of nation, they're like the Nazis. They're like fascist elite, which is ludicrous. Yeah, a lot to say there. I just wanted to point out really quick, too, when you think about who are Americans actually terrorized by? When was the last time Cuba or Iran or the DPRK or Syria terrorized a single American? It doesn't happen. America are mostly terrorized by right-wing, psychos, the OKC bombing, mass shootings, El Paso, synagogue shootings.

And then the state, think of 2020 uprising. the BLM protest and the violent terrorization of the state. Ferguson protesters disappeared. So the real terrorist for the actual American people are right-wing psychopaths and the American state itself. Cuba, Iran, Syria, D.P.A., they've never done anything to anybody I know ever. And so that's another layer of absurdity. And Cala made a great point, too, about, you know, rogue state status,

because that's another one of these buzz terms that can be thrown around quite often. And for 30 years, almost in a row, I believe, every country, except for the United States and Israel, have voted against the embargo on Cuba. Every single country, in 2021, there were only three countries that abstained. And that was Colombia, Ukraine, and Brazil under Bolsonaro. I mean, I think that stuff really honestly speaks volumes about what's really going on here.

But let's go ahead and move forward a little bit because I want to ask about the off-the-list campaign. So obviously, we understand the list. We understand where it comes from, the history, why certain states are on it and certain states are not. And then, of course, the revolutionary response to that is to try to organize and struggle to get them off the list as well as end the embargo, et cetera. This is also being met with the Force Act, attempts by Congress to codify into law forever Cuba's terrorist designation. So can you talk a little bit about off-the-list campaign and these other attempts by the U.S. state to keep the Cuba on. the list in perpetuity?

Yeah, absolutely. So the off-the-list campaign has the goal of taking Cuba off the state sponsors of terrorism list, but not just that. We are calling for an end to all U.S. economic terrorism towards Cuba, an end to all U.S. global terror against the global south. And so we have a whole week of action, which is based in D.C., but there's a lot of local protests happening across the U.S., Canada, around the world. We're starting off on Thursday and Friday with some advocacy days where we're going to be in Congress, pushing against the Force Act, which I'll talk about in a second.

Then on Saturday and Sunday, we're going to be having a lot of different meetings and art builds, rallying, sharing music, cultural performances, getting hyped up for a big rally on Sunday where we're going to be marching first at the State Department, then to the White House and rallying to tell Biden to take Cuba off the list. And we're going to hear from the voices of Cuban people and U.S. people who are impacted by the blockade. And it's really important for us to remember that the blockade is not being upheld by the U.S. people. It's being upheld by a very small, extreme sector of the U.S. ruling class who benefit from trying to crush Cuba. But a majority of U.S. people have consistently seen that these sanctions aren't working for their stated purpose and are detrimental to both the U.S. and Cuban people. And in the lead up to this campaign, which NNOC has been organizing this entire year, We've passed over 90 resolutions in different city councils and different labor unions around the country. Together, those represent well over 50, 60 million people at this point.

And so communities, unions, school boards, city councils are telling Biden, like, this is not the voice of the U.S. people. We do not want this genocidal blockade. And just most recently, the D.C. Council unanimously passed one of these resolutions and urged Biden and urged other representatives to take action to end the blockade. So Cuba has always understood that the U.S. government does not represent the U.S. people, and that's why we're rallying because we have to make it clear that we won't stand for this genocidal policy. And this isn't the start. This is just the beginning of what will be a long campaign to continue the normalization of U.S. Cuba relations.

So if folks are interested in participating in D.C. or finding the protest that's closest to you, you can go to nnoc.org slash off the list. We have a lot of political education resources there. We have information on how to travel to Cuba with a brigade. And it's a great way to start to get involved in the Cuba Solidarity Movement. You know, speaking of brigades, I guess before I go to the brigades, we've been talking about the blockade on Cuba and I know that we haven't talked explicitly about all of the things that have led into the blockade although we've touched on several

of them we haven't talked about all of the impacts economic politically culturally socially due to the blockade but I do want to make sure to direct our audience to the episode that we did on the blockade on Cuba with Helen Yaffy it was a really great episode came out maybe four months ago or so, four or five months ago. You can find it in your feed. Wherever you get your podcasts, it was named the blockade on Cuba or something like that with Helen Yaffe, where you can get a full conversation devoted specifically to that topic. But I want to make sure, oh, and I see that we had forgotten to mention the Force Act.

So, Calla, perhaps you can go in and talk about the Force Act before we turn to the Brigades. Yeah, my bad. I just got excited about the protest and forgot. to mention the bad thing, which is the Force Act or H.R. 314. This is a bill that was introduced earlier this year by some very extreme right-wing Florida Republicans, Marco Rubio in the Senate, and Ria Salazar in the House. And this bill, if passed, would codify into law Cuba's designation as a terrorist state, removing the power of Biden or whoever the president is to remove Cuba from the list. And this is extremely dangerous because it would make it virtually impossible for

Cuba to be undesignated as a so-called terrorist state unless Cuba meets these basically impossible conditions set forth in the bill. And this actually models many of the pieces of legislation that make up the U.S. blockade on Cuba, which all condition the lifting of sanctions on Cuba completely changing their political and social and economic system to be whatever the U.S. judges or deems to be free. Many of these bills will say, in order for sanctions to be lifted, Cuba has to have fair and free elections like overseen by the U.S., which is literally just neocolonialism. Obviously, we know that freedom as determined by the U.S. only means freedom for the ruling class to exploit and to control the resources. And so

that's what they want in Cuba. And that gets to why, no matter how much they say, oh, the blockade is about democracy and freedom. It's really about the opposite. They want the, the small ruling class group of people wants the freedom to do whatever they want to Cuba. They want to go back to the 1950s when most Cubans had no access to health care, no access to education, very low life expectancy, and they want to go back to that because that's what was profitable for them. So on our days of advocacy, we're going to be meeting with the representatives and rallying to tell them to vote no against the Force Act. And I also want to shout out some of the other organizations that are part of this week of action and the off-the-list campaign since it's not just the NNOC. And NNOC also isn't really

an organization. We're an umbrella. We are many different groups. But Code Pink and Asere, which is the Alliance for Cuba Engagement and Respect, to plead a huge role in organizing these advocacy days. We've been working really closely with Code Pink, the Answer Coalition, and many local groups in D.C., like the D.C. Metro Coalition and solidarity with the Cuban Revolution, the Black Alliance for Peace, the Palestinian Youth Movement, the Amazon Labor Union, the All African People's Revolutionary Party, and many more groups. And also the International People's Assembly and the People's Forum in New York have all been incredible partners in organizing these protests. So it's really been a group effort building this coalition

to be even bigger because we need unity in the U.S. That's something Cuba has that we don't have yet. And Cuba's depending on us to build unity and to get past our differences and unite against imperialism. Yeah, the end that has TPSA, that has C-PUSA, that has Cote Pink, that has PSA, folks. It's like there's stuff cooking. Well, that sounds like a great. great group and a lot of work has obviously gone into forging this coalition. I'm wondering if even, you know, if the Force Act is actually emerging partly in response to the successes of the campaign, since one of the consequences of it is that Biden wouldn't himself be able to just make a kind of policy decision to remove it from the state sponsors of terrorism list at the

State Department, but that they've clearly those who are very anti-Cuba, anti-in-want to maintain all of these sanctions may have become aware of NNOC and your partner's campaign. If 90 resolutions municipally and unions and so on have been passed, that suggests that it is a large group of people who are waking up politically to you know, the oppressive nature of this, of this designation. So are they responding, do you think, these lawmakers precisely because of the success of this campaign? And what do you think are the prospects for, you know, blocking them from actually being able to pass this? Yeah, I think it is absolutely a response to the strong solidarity movement that's building in the U.S.

the same goes for the fact that many brigadistas returning to the U.S. from Cuba after Mayday were detained and interrogated. That's also a response to the strength that the solidarity movement is growing, which I think is really skyrocketed just in the last year. And in terms of the prospects of keeping this past, keeping this from passing, a lot of quote unquote progressive Democrats have been condemning Cuba's listing as a state sponsor of terrorism. There's been letters signed to Biden, not just pushing him to lift the sanctions because they're inhumane, but using the immigration crisis at the border as particular reasoning for why he should alleviate these sanctions is because he's creating a domestic crisis for himself by driving such

severe economic conditions in Cuba and Venezuela that people are being forced to leave to find more opportunities. And I think in terms of the goal of the Force Act, it is to keep Biden from changing anything. I think it's unlikely, you know, Biden's going to make extreme changes before if he gets a second term. But Maria Salazar, who's like the main person pushing this bill and is actually interesting person because she used to be much less critical of Cuba. I think she even interviewed Fidel Castro and called him like a great leader or something

and was criticized that. But then she used to be journalists. Then she became a politician in Miami. saw how profitable um it would be to sell out to the anti-cuba lobby got a lot of that money and has become one of the most hawkish representatives on cuba and she asked um i think in march in a hearing with the secretary of state antony blinkin she basically got him to say on record that the u.s is not considering taking cuba off the state sponsorship list at all and clearly that shows like there was some there was some like back and discussion about taking cuba off the list

um which is why she was worried about it and why she was He's doubling down on this effort. But what Blinken said is that there's no plans to take Cuba off the list that they'd have to meet a very high bar to be removed, which my only question is like, what higher bar could Cuba be meeting? Cuba is possibly the most peaceful nation in the world. Cuba has tens of thousands of doctors who are surveilling on international missions like around the world, the most doctors in the worlds. How could they possibly be meeting a higher bar for what it means to be? a peaceful diplomatic nation. And objectively more democratic than the United States. 100%. You've mentioned the brigades a couple of times, but I want to make sure that the listeners are aware of what brigades you're talking about. And you also mentioned some of the treatment of the brigadistas upon their return.

So I know that this is taking us a little bit away from the list specifically, but I do think that it's valuable since we're talking about things that people can do to support Cuba as well. So I guess I'll address this to Cala first. So what are these brigades, the mega-day brigades that you took part in this year? What do you do during these brigades? And then you mentioned the treatment of the brigadises upon their return. Can you talk about that? You mentioned that it was kind of almost a form of intimidation against brigadistas upon their return.

If you can talk about the kind of underlying reason for that treatment when you, when you returned. Yeah, absolutely. And I think the brigades and just the importance of traveling to Cuba in general are directly connected to our conversations about the list about sanctions, because that's why it's why traveling to Cuba is so important is because once you go there, you really see this U.S. propaganda fall apart before your own eyes. And not only that, but you see the devastating impacts of sanctions, which I think in the U.S. we're taught are kind of invisible. We're taught that, oh, these are like gentle ways of, you know, applying political or diplomatic pressure. They don't actually hurt people. They're just directed at the Cuban government. But that couldn't

be further from the truth. These sanctions are a collective punishment on the entire Cuban population. And they have to deal with the impacts of those sanctions every second of every single day of their lives. 80% of the Cuban population. has lived their entire lives under the blockade. And so that's why we go to Cuba. We go to exchange directly with the Cuban people, with their mass organizations, like the Women's Federation,

like the University Students Federation, the Communist Party, the committees in defense of the revolution, the trade union Congress. We go to learn from them about their revolution and about the impacts of the blockade and what we can do upon our return to the U.S. to fight against the blockade.

And for the May Day Brigade, we also participate in the May Day celebrations for International Workers Day, which are really incredible because we don't have that kind of celebration in the U.S. But unfortunately, this year, the celebrations were postponed and slightly adjusted to be smaller, and that's because the blockade is getting harsher than ever. A lot of Cubans are comparing this to like a second special period compared to how bad the economy got after the fall of the USSR. And there's really extreme fuel shortages, which limited our ability to travel around the islands. But traveling to Cuba is so important, whether you want to join a brigade. NNOC leads the May Day Brigade every year. Our member organizations like the Venceramos Brigade and IFCO Pastures for Peace also lead different delegations throughout the year. So all that information is on our website.

But even if you just want to go to Cuba for yourself to like hang out and talk to people and learn, that's still a really good too. because it's not like when you go to a hotel in Cuba that you're giving all that money directly to the like huge capitalist owners of the hotel. Like that money is actually being redistributed among the entire Cuban economy putting into free healthcare, free education and helping the people with their needs. So that's important to remember too. And another reason why you should travel to Cuba is because the U.S. doesn't want us to. And I think in general when the U.S. is like, you shouldn't go to this country. That's a really good reason to go there. to figure out the truth and why they don't want you to see the reality there. The same goes for

the DPRK, which unfortunately we're banned from going, not because the DPRK doesn't want us to go there, but because the State Department doesn't want us to. But it is in fact legal to travel to Cuba. It's a lot easier than most people realize, and it's so, so important to take advantage of the fact that we can go because we weren't able to for decades. Solidarity brigades had to go take freight ships from Canada to get to Cuba or they had to fly, like, to the Czech Republic before they flew to Cuba. And now it's a lot more easier than people think. And so when we returned from Cuba, both the NNOC brigade and the International People's Assembly Brigade and the L.A. Labor delegation that was there at the same time, all of these groups experienced political repression, interrogation, like hours-long

detainment. Brigadistas had their phones taken. their belonging searched, very clearly politically targeted questioning. And this is an attempt to scare us out of why we're doing, of what we're doing, which is, you know, learning from Cuba and exchanging with the Cuban people. That's why they are trying to scare and intimidate us. And we shouldn't let that scare and intimidate us. It should motivate us to be doing this work even more because it scares them so much. So I'm, you know, we stand in solidarity with all the people who were detained, and who experienced this harassment. But all that it shows is that everything the U.S. says that's true about Cuba, that Cuba's a police state, that Cuba is repressive, that there's no

freedom in Cuba. All of that is in fact true about the U.S., and we experienced that literally as soon as we stepped foot back on U.S. soil, whether it was in the airports in Florida, in New Jersey, in Texas, like all over. They are trying to stop us from traveling to Cuba, and that's why it's more important than ever that we are going there, that we are seeing the Cuban reality and bringing it back to the U.S. so we can fight against the blockade and so we can build our own revolution here. I want to make sure that Jorge has an opportunity to say anything that he wants to on this topic as well, but I will mention that you had talked about how many Americans perhaps are under the illusion

that sanctions are a softer, gentler, kinder, more humane option of coercive measure that the United States could carry out. And this is something that sadly is all too prevalent within American popular thought, something that we've been trying to dispel on our show. I know long-time listeners would be well aware, but perhaps if you're only tuning in for this episode, you wouldn't be aware of our Sanctions as War series, which has been a series that's been going on over the course of the last, what, almost year, guys.

where we've talked about sanctions from theoretical perspective, case studies, et cetera, to really delve into the devastating impacts of sanctions, both in terms, again, theoretically, the inhumanity of sanctions and the inhumanity from a practical real-world perspective, seeing what happens in these various countries. And that Cuba episode that I mentioned earlier was part of that series. But again, if you want to hear the more theoretical side, we have episodes on that.

If you want to hear other case studies about China, DPRK, we have an upcoming episode on Russia, which will be coming out in a couple of weeks, which, of course, I have personal perspective that you'll be hearing as well because, of course, I live in Russia. We have episodes on other case studies as well and more upcoming as well. So it is not a kinder, it is not a gentler form of coercion. It is devastating. It is brutal. it is deadly. It is completely incapacitating for many countries. Fortunately, the situation that I'm living in isn't as incapacitating as it is for smaller countries, but even here we see very severe impacts as a result of the sanctions. In smaller countries that don't have the ability

to circumvent sanctions quite as well as Russia does, like Cuba, the impacts are all the more devastating. And so for anybody that still has the preconceived notion that sanctions are a humane form of coercive foreign policy, dispel that from your mind right now because it is absolutely false. If you ever hear that from anybody, you must combat that immediately. Do not allow that false narrative to get out there because it is all too popular in popular culture that sanctions are something that the United States does as a parochial, you know, but humane entity within the global stage. This is not true. I can tell you from personal example. We've heard many other examples, some personal, some from a more academic standpoint. This is not the case of sanctions. And in

Cuba, it is certainly not the case. So be sure to not let that notion get out there and continue to fester because it really, it really is something that we hear very frequent. yeah i think a lot of what you said is really really resonant um fortunately i'm not gone on the brigade would love to go in the future uh but i think regarding what kail brought up in terms the brigadista they came back and being detained i think it's quite telling that the united states government i mean paul mentioned like the claims that cuba is like a police state or what have you whether or not that's true is irrelevant it's relevant to the fact the United States is clearly one, because why were they so ready?

It means that they were observing. They were keeping track that this was happening, right? Like, why, like, you don't just bring that upon us like, oh, yeah, I, it was just random spontaneous, we're going to detain an entire brigade of people that came from Cuba. Like, are you kidding me? It's like this, like, very much clearly like meant for intimidation. But, call I mentioned, it means it's working. Don't be afraid.

but stay frosty. Just keep a cool head, but be observant. Don't be dumb. Don't say anything that would be, how do I say it, could be interpreted in a way that could really abuse to persecute you. And again, I'm not even suggesting that like any views you're hiding. Not even that. I'm just saying it's like there, if there is an intention of trying to repress

and trying to persecute and trying to intimidate, the government will use anything it can because why not right it's a sovereign entity it can just get away with it because it has the power to do it

but in terms of what you mentioned about sanctions it is you know I completely agree sanctions are not a clean form of like coercion I think it's like nonsense I mean but also late within that it's like you're mentioning coercion

it's like well there's also your towel right it's like the fundamental thing. It's like, oh, it's a nicer form of coercion, but you're still, there's still coercion here, right? And I think it's more we kind of goes into more base level questions. What is violence, right? And I think there is so much effort.

It's so fascinating to me that the United States, that, you know, United States internationally is one of the most violent political entities in human history. I think this is just like, you add up all the conflicts, interventions, wars, proxy conflicts, you know, supporting of groups. We have been in every single continent on Earth. We have intervened in almost every single country in the world. And that's been the case.

You know, we completely cleared out the living people that were on this continent. We brought in, you know, millions of people from Africa. have enslaved them. And so it's like in what sense can the United States like the U.S. is extremely violent historically. And but

on that note it's like it's if you're using economic sanctions which is coercing countries, in fact it's not so much like in the ways there's so much propaganda about guns being bad. You know, it's a very complicated issue. Don't want to get into it. You know, there's a lot of nuances there.

But the thing is it's really ironic that the United States particularly many people who aren't the left any liberals have like a phobia of guns but it's like well look if you are going to have that you have to be consistent it has to be that you have to be against what the U.S. does abroad but the danger of that too is like

okay I'm against all wars but you have to also understand that sanctions are an aspect of that like if in fact in many ways it can be a more sophisticated form of war, because you don't even have to put boots on the ground, but yet you can accomplish devastation on a scale that weaponry cannot. Yeah, absolutely.

And I also wanted just to say about the FBI intimidation of the brigades coming back from Cuba. They do this with protesters. They've done this with me just for having a radio show where they'll show up at my house. They'll objectively lie about things. They'll try to intimidate you. Literally, they know that you've done nothing illegal. The point is simply to dissuade you from doing it in the future by taking up your time, scaring you.

A lot of people aren't used to talking to cops, aren't used to talking to the FBI? That's incredibly scary. At protests, they'll round up people, regardless of what you're doing, throw you in jail just to dissuade you from going through the next time. You know, and I think part of them also know, like your face is going to be on the television.

You're going to be targeted by your political opponents. This is tried and true domestically abroad. They want to intimidate you. And if you can be organized, you have an organization of people who are willing to back you up if anything does go into legal trouble and you're willing to stand your ground and you say we've done nothing illegal. Isn't this the country of freedom? You know, we have the freedom to travel around the world.

We have the freedom to talk to other human beings. That's the way to do it. But I'd also like to say that if you, especially if you're by yourself in any of these situations coming back from Cuba at a protest, there's no legal obligation on your part to speak to cops at all. you can always, you know, evoke your right to remain silent. And that's almost always the best case scenario because they can start intimidating you. You're frazzled. You're stressed out. They start asking a question. You say something a little wrong. You misremember what day you did something on. And they can start wrapping you up and really scaring you. So if there's ever an opportunity to not speak at all to the cops, that's always the best move to take, especially when you're isolated and away from any organization that can really have your back. It's worth thinking about. But, um, Let's go ahead and move forward a little bit. I don't know. There's a couple questions I would kind of want to ask. Either we can go the Biden direction and talk about the Biden administration or we can also talk about the latest kerfuffle, if you will, about the Chinese spy base in Cuba. You guys can take either one of those topics and let us know what's going on. Yeah. So I guess just to speak about Biden specifically, and I guess the question of why is he doubling down so forcefully on Cuba's? designation as a state sponsor of terror. I think exactly what Trump intended is kind of playing

out because Trump added Cuba back to the list in the very last days of his term to kind of set up this political obstacle for Biden where he'd be getting pressure from both sides to either take Cuba off the list or keep Cuba on the list. And either way, he'd be pissing someone off and also not staying true to his campaign promises, which had always been to return to Obama-era normalization and to reverse Trump's harshest added sanctions, which he hasn't done because he hasn't taken Cuba off the list. And so now Biden is getting that kind of pressure from us with the off-the-list campaign, also with the Force Act and with these right-wing Republicans, and even from his own party, these Democrats who are saying these sanctions are causing or contributing

to the migration crisis, why aren't you doing anything? So obviously Biden isn't like the most politically adapt person, but I don't really know or care what he thinks personally. The reality is he's the voice of the military industrial complex in the U.S. And I don't think we should be very surprised that Biden is breaking his campaign promises, but we should be trying to hold him accountable to them and using that as more reasoning that he should take Cuba off the list. In terms of like who actually controls Biden's Cuba policy, I think he is still trying to appeal to this very small, right-wing group of Cuban-American voters, who he has already lost. Like, they went for Trump in

2020. They're going to go for Trump again. There's no reason to keep trying to appeal to them. But it's also not just the right-wing Republicans. It's like people in the Democratic Party. The blockade has always been bipartisan upheld by every single Democratic and Republican senator since it was enacted. And the person who really controls Biden's Cuba policy, if you listen to sources inside the administration, it's Bob Menendez, who is a right-wing Cuban-American Democratic senator who has always been very hawkish on Cuba policy. And it's just an awful person in general. Like, he was just investigated for corruption and fraud and, like, abusing his power for financial benefit. And Biden relies on Menendez to get his appointments through the

Senate. And so he's not going to do anything to piss Menendez off because Menendez is a powerful chairman in the Foreign Relations Committee. So that's someone that we're going to be putting particular pressure on. I won't say any more than that, but keep your eyes out. And that will take me to responding to this new allegation by the U.S., first published by the Wall Street Journal, that Cuba is somehow harboring a quote-unquote Chinese spy base. And obviously this is a continuation of Cold War propaganda. It's Cold War 2.0 on China and the same Cold War that Cuba has been dealing with for the past 60 years since it never really ended for Cuba. And clearly the U.S. is not even like getting creative with their propaganda anymore.

They're just recycling the same old claims that they've been using since the Soviet Union was still around. But what I want to highlight here is that China does not have a spy base in Cuba. Cuba is a signatory to the agreement of the Caribbean and Latin American states as a zone of peace and therefore opposes the presence of any foreign military bases, especially the illegal occupation by the U.S. of Guantanamo Bay, which has gone on for 125 years. Last year when I was in Cuba, I got to visit Guantanamo and just saw how devastating it's been to the local population to be deprived of the right to access their own land, their own water for literally over a century. So obviously this is meant to distract from the reality that the U.S. is really the one

having this illegal military occupation in Cuba. But it's also the threat that China and Cuba's relationship poses to the U.S. as a multipolar world is emerging. Because one of the main aspects of the blockade is that Cuba can't use the U.S. dollar in any transactions, whether it's with the U.S. or with other countries. And so they need access to foreign currency. to build infrastructure, to buy products. Cuba's a tiny island. They can't produce or grow most of what they need to survive, so they need to import a lot, and therefore they need foreign currency. And that's the threat that Cuba and China's partnership poses to the U.S. is because this growing multipolar world, Cuba's relationship in trade with China, with Russia, with Iran, with other countries

impacted by U.S. sanctions, the dollarization, all of that is going to help alleviate the effects of the U.S. blockade and make things easier for Cuba. And of course the U.S. doesn't want that. So the Cold War that they're waging against Cuba and China with these sanctions, with this propaganda, is really one and the same. I just also wanted to point out kind of quickly that the Chinese spy base is like the newest thing to get worked up about. But we also remember Havana syndrome. You know, we remember the Cuba Libre movement where the whole media was instantly coordinated to amplify this tiny minority within Cuba. it seems like every time something else dies down they need to recreate something else

and there's always something that takes the place of the previous thing and I just think this new Chinese spy base is just another talking point and it's really convenient because you can combine two big things that you hate Cuba and China into one further demonize Cuba as an ally to China etc. So these narratives work but you have to see how they're coordinated attempts to denigrate these places

and once one runs out of steam they just invent another one. Well, I'm sure we're going to hear about just like in the Cuban Missile Crisis that China is installing spy balloon launching facilities, you know, here in the space. So watch out for that one. Yeah, only the U.S. could create propaganda regarding balloons seeming them as like a terrifying prospect. I mean, this whole situation with the by-base in Cuba, alleged that being from China, it's like, it's just, I think it's so, it's such a fascinating

case study in terms of how the U.S. operate because, because, you know, the Wall Street Journal alleged that this was, this was gone from in terms of intelligence sources that the Wall Street Journal had. But the Biden administration officially said, this is not true, we don't believe this. Really fascinating because, like, why, suppose, like, let's say that the Wall Street Journal is not lying and they do actually have

source intelligence service say like it's the CIA right why are they getting two different responses from the same to government

and I think this has done so many time historically the U.S. does this but I think what it is

it's just like it's trying to play both side to see what it's trying to it's you it's interested

in trying to see all right well we're going to try to create this narrative let it out a bit

but we're going to say we're not for that because of course we're not before anything like that but

it's almost like you're doing a little bit of like you're testing the waters of what could be possible and if people respond well to that then maybe you can keep trying to push that but what's also really interesting regarding that is because the Biden administration officially denies it then it can just, it has like this veneer of a shield

saying no we don't believe this nonsense conspiracy theory that's saying about this but yet somehow there's more and more things coming from intelligence sources. So either it's completely made up, which seems like this would be the case. Or, so, like, completely, but on the flip side, it could be, when I'm saying completely made up, it's not even saying that that's made from the U.S. government. I'm saying it could be completely made up by the Wall Street Journal. Because again, the Wall Street Journal is a capitalist press. It is the voice of, I guess, like, probably like the center and

right-winning of the financial ruling class. I mean, the other main publication really being Bloomberg, but it kind of leads more left than, say, Wall Street Journal does. And so Walter Journal really represents this kind of central financial ruling class and the voice is trying to create propaganda towards them. And so if there is an interest by a segment of the ruling class that is aligned with, say, the Wall Street Journal, you know, Murdoch, what have you, like are interested in terms of trying to do this, then why not just say intelligence? I mean, what's the worst that can happen? The U.S. government. denies it like it did, but also, on the flip side, too,

it could be column A, column B. We know that the United States historically abroad have had, you know, intelligence officers be as a front job, be in media publications, right? So why are we so naive to sue? Why are we so, like, you know, I don't want to go on too much of a tangent on that, but like, why is it such a that out there idea, that maybe that could be the case too. So it could be a little bit of both at the same time. Because guess what? The interest of the capital and the government are aligned.

Yeah. I think that that's a great note to end on great conversation. Like I said earlier, we do have plans to have a future conversation looking at the state sponsor of terrorism list in a more global perspective and looking at other countries that are on it, as well as, of course, you know, reexamining Cuba as we go through that conversation and see how Cuba, the example of Cuba on the state sponsors of terrorism, Rism list intersects and interlocks with other countries that have been placed on the SSOT in the past and in the present.

So do stay tuned for that. That'll be coming out at some point. Who knows when, but we definitely have plans to do that. So I want to thank our guests. Again, we had Jorge Roja, Roja. That's Rocha. Sorry. Yes, Rocha.

And Calla Walsh on the show today from the national network on Cuba. Jorge, can you tell the listeners how they can find you and any of your other work that you do? Yeah, absolutely. You can find me on Twitter. That line goes down. So it is a reference to the financing of capital, the rate of property go down. I could also find, I have a podcast they do, as I mentioned in the beginning. Everybody loves communism. I'm also involved with the DSA's international committee. be sure to check us out, join if you're interested, join DSA-I-C. And I guess one last thing I want to mention that the International Committee

on June 20, 4th, as well, same weekend as the protests, but the day before, we'll be having an event at 8 p.m. Eastern Time, with the co-host of the Blowback Podcast, Noel Colwin, and organizers from the United States and Korea and organizations in these two nations like International Committee mentioned before No Dot Dool,

women cross the MZ and international strategy centers to discuss the causes and impacts of the war in Korea and a path to peace. Great, and that'll be coming out. That event is taking place the day after we drop this episode, hopefully. So if you are listening to this episode on the day that it comes out,

that will be tomorrow for you. And the protest will be the next day. So we've got lots of stuff coming up for you immediately after this episode comes out. So hopefully you're listening to this right away. Cala, how can the listeners find you? And then either one of you, can you tell the listeners how they can find more about the National Network on Cuba and how to get involved? Yeah, so you can find me at Calla Walsh on Twitter and NNOC's Twitter is at NNO Cuba. Our Instagram is National Network on Cuba. Our website is NNOC.org.

And like I said, all the information you need to get involved is on our site. You can register for the June 25th weekend of action. You can find a local protest. You can find out about how to travel to Cuba. You can sign up to join our task forces or see our member orgs. So I really encourage people to go there and to follow along our social media since that's really where we're fighting the battle of ideas. The CIA has tens of thousands of fake Twitter and social media accounts that they're using. to push public opinion against Cuba and manufacture content for the blockade. So it's important that we're getting the truth out there and countering that propaganda with the truth. Yeah, absolutely. It was a pleasure having both of you on this show. Looking forward to talking with you each again

and hopefully the near future. Calla, I'm looking forward to this project that we're working on, which again, I'll just tease the listeners that we are working on something, but without any further information as of now. Brett, how can the listeners find you in your other excellent podcasts? Yeah, well, first and foremost, I just want to say thank you both so much for not only coming on and sharing your knowledge and experience with us, but for being on the front lines of the anti-imperialist struggle in the United States. You know, on this show, we're constantly telling people get organized, get into an organization, and, you know, organizing around working class issues domestically is one thing.

It's kind of more challenging sometimes to think about how can I organize domestically around anti-imperialism. But this is a perfect example of people doing exactly that. So hats off to both of you and to all the comrades of fighting this particular struggle. As for me, you can find everything I do at Revolutionary LeftRadio.com. Yeah. And, of course, highly recommend the listeners do that. Brett, since this episode is coming out soon, what's the next thing that the listeners can be expecting to come out from you? Well, we have a, right now on the month of June, we're doing a best of series is another round of some of our older episodes.

You know, people are always coming in, so we want to introduce them to. some of our classic Epps, but we're coming back in July strong. I think the first one we're doing interview is a book, I forget the author's name, but it's an American family about the secours. So, you know, Asada's experience and all of that. It's a brand new book just came out. I reached out to him on Instagram. So that will be our first interview back on Rev Left come July,

and I'm really looking forward to that conversation. And Cuba will certainly be brought up in that discussion for sure. Perfect. Looking forward to that. Adnan, how can they'll this in response? find you and your podcast. Well, you can find me on Twitter at Adnan-A-Husain, H-U-S-A-I-N. And it's in the Islamic world, Middle East, Muslim diasporic culture.

You can check out the M-A-J-L-I-S on all the usual platforms. We haven't had a recent episode in a while. I have to organize something soon. But I would also encourage people to check out if you're interested in my work and a kind of online course that I did on the crusading society. All of the sessions were recorded, and if you register at adnanhussein.org, you can have access to about, you know, 10, 12 class meetings, and I'm looking forward to doing more things like that.

Survey of Middle Eastern history, maybe a guerrilla history, kind of basic training, sort of, you know, a set of work. workshops. So check that out. Follow that also. And do check out the Mudge list again, M-A-J-L-I-S. Naturally, I recommend the listeners to do both of those things. Listen to the Mudge list and subscribe to Adnan's courses on his website. As for me, listeners, you can follow me on Twitter at Huck 1995. That's H-U-C-1995. By the point, by the time that this episode comes out pre-orders for the Stalin history and critique of a black legend translation that Salvatore Angle de

Mauro and myself did for Iskra books should be available. The book is slated to be released on July 1st, which will be just over a week after this episode comes out. So by the time this episode comes out, pre-orders at that time should be open. You can find that by just going to my Twitter page and I'm sure that I'll have links to pre-order. Just a reminder that the PDF will be free. We want to make sure that as many people can get it as possible. But the print edition is going to look really, really cool. So I, you know, I do kind of encourage people if you are financially able to. They're basically printing it at cost and it's really going to look slick. So stay tuned for that. And again, you can find that by just Googling Iskra books following Peace Land

and Bread on Twitter or just following my Twitter. And I'm sure that I'll be sharing lots of stuff about that. As for guerrilla history, you can follow the show by going to Twitter and looking for at Gorilla underscore Pod, G-U-E-R-R-R-I-L-A-U-L-A-U-Square-POD. You can help support the show and help us keep the lights on by going to patreon.com forward slash guerrilla history, with, again, gorilla being spelled G-U-E-R-R-I-L-A history. And until next time, listeners, solidarity. I'm going to be able to be.

Thank you.