GYM GIRLS LOCKER ROOM - How to Get Jacked and Actually Perform with Abbie Dennison

Episode Date: March 3, 2026

S3 EP5 – How to Get Jacked and Actually Perform with Abbie Dennison In this episode, we’re joined by hybrid athlete and creator Abbie Dennison to break down the reality of training for performance, aesthetics, and longevity, all at once.If anyone has cracked the code to looking and feeling strong, it's Abbie.We unpack what truly matters when it comes to building strength and endurance without breaking your body. From beginner advice and smarter training structure, to marathon fuelling, ultra prep and fully committing to HYROX, this is THE conversation for girls who want to do it all.We also dive into Abbie’s journey into content creation, how she built her platform in the hybrid space, and what it’s really like balancing aesthetics with elite-level performance.In this episode, we cover:*How to train hybrid as a woman*Building strength and endurance without constant burnout*The importance of your recovery habits for injury prevention*Fuelling properly for marathon training (before, during and after long runs)*What you should know before signing up for an ultra-marathon*Smart training plans for Hyrox*Performance vs aesthetics, can you genuinely have both?*How Abbie built her platform as a hybrid fitness creatorThis episode is a reminder that you don’t have to choose between being strong, fast, aesthetic, and ambitious.Performance isn’t about shrinking yourself and it requires dedication. It involves fuelling properly, training intelligently, and committing fully to your goals.The more intentional your training becomes, the more confident you feel in your body.🎧 New episodes every Tuesday⭐ Follow the podcast & leave a 5-star rating, it helps us grow the community.

Hello and welcome back to the gym girls locker room podcast hosted by me, Sydney Cassidy. Today we have a good guest and a actually very good friend of mine. This is going to be an amazing episode for any of you guys that are interested in doing it all, doing the whole damn thing. Functional fitness, running, you name it. And before we get into the episode, I think it's time for Sidd Session, which is the segment we do at the start of the show where I explain to you what I'm doing for training today. As we all know, I do pretty much a big old mix of everything.

Today I'm doing, I haven't actually trained yet today, but today I am doing a 10km broken tempo run. As you guys know, I'm training for high rocks and this means we're doing a lot more speedwork, which can't say I'm too happy about. But what does that look like? It looks like 5.24. minute per kilometre with an RPE range of around six to seven out ten so five minutes of warming up three kilometres at RPE six three kilometres at RP six point five then RP seven and then walking

and RPE is rate of perceived exertion for anyone that doesn't know it's a really great way actually side note to measure the intensity and the effort that you're putting into a workout especially for us girlies that kind of really see that dip in energy around our periods and our cycles. It's a way that I really like to kind of measure how much effort I'm putting in because there'll be some days where a six minute per kilometre pace for running feels so, so hard and there'll be days where it feels really easy. Or, for example, a 10 kg dumbbell feels so heavy or it feels extremely light. So using the rate of perceived exertion is a really fantastic way to keep that consistency on your training based on how you're

feeling. Before we get into the episode, if you do enjoy what you're listening to, it would mean so much to us if you could rate or review the podcast. It goes such a long way in pushing out the podcast further. Don't forget that we're on YouTube now. So if you do want to watch us, we will be over there. Give us a like, comment and a subscribe. And on with the episode. Today's guest is the ultimate hybrid weapon, proof that you can lift heavy, run far and still maintain muscle. She went from sprinter to lifter to marathon runner and now dominates the hybrid space

all while still somehow making it look very, very easy. She's run ultras, marathons and place fourth at the Hirox World Championships and now coaches others to train hybrid. She's the definition of train smart, not just hard. Please welcome the powerhouse herself, Abby Denison. Yay! That was the nicest introduction ever.

I know, I thought, do you know what? Let me just like stroke her ego a little bit. How are you doing? I'm good. I feel like so busy, but doing really good. I feel like when aren't you doing something extreme and crazy? I mean, you probably feel the same. Every single time I think I'm having a down period,

something comes up pretty last minute and I'm travelling or I'm super busy, but I love it. At the top of like every episode, we always like to ask people, what is your current workout split? Now, I'm sure for you, this changes all the time. So I'd love to know what you're currently doing. So, okay, first thing coming up is Lisbon Marathon. I've got that in just under three weeks.

So those are my workouts that are set in stone. I think I've got five runs a week. One long run, one speed session, like intervals, one more temporary threshold and then two easy runs. Then around that, I try and get in one upper and one lower body strength. And then sprinkling in a little bit of high rocks because I do have high rocks in December. So that's more just doing as and when I can. and then once I'm done with the marathon

we'll have set and stone high rocks workouts so it's such a difference but it varies every week depending on what I'm doing and how busy I am but that's pretty much it so some days a double days I do have like at least one full rest day a week but some days will be like an easy run and a gym session doubled up do you feel like because a lot of your stuff

is it fair to say it's like performance sort of training like you're always working towards a goal do you feel like that is pretty much just how your years worth of training are or like your months worth of training are at the moment like you are just very much like doing different training plans depending on what the the goal is well I think definitely in the last year since I've really gone all in on hybrid training I always have some kind of event coming up whether it's a high rocks or a running race so yes everything kind of is geared up towards a specific goal I think I had a bit of a more down period after high rocks worlds which was definitely

because you can't be in a race block the whole time. That was more kind of like a zone two strength. Back to my lifting routes focus, but definitely back end of this year, did the ultra. Wasn't actually sure how I'd get on with this training block for the marathon, but surprisingly touchwood, it's been going okay. So it's been straight into marathon training, and then we've got high rocks in December.

And then that's it. I've only planned up to the end of this year, and then next year is all on the cards. I've got no idea. I love how you're saying that's it when it's like, We literally have like three months left. I know. Right. We will touch all upon that. But I just wanted a first for anybody that doesn't know or anybody that's a little bit confused.

Like how would you define hybrid, which is this kind of like buzzword that's been going around for a while now? What would that mean to you as someone who would call herself a hybrid athlete? Yeah. Well, it's such a love-hate term. Some people absolutely hate it. In my eyes, well, hybrid just means like dual. It's two things.

So it's some kind of strength and some kind of conditioning. So someone could cycle and do strength training and that's still hybrid. Just like strength and conditioning training really. So like multiple different disciplines at once. So for me, that is strength and running. And then I guess high rocks kind of fit somewhere in the middle because it's a bit of both. And that isn't something you've been doing since you started your finish journey, is it? What did you start out in?

Well, okay, so I started doing sprinting, which I absolutely loved and I competed to quite a high level. And then when I gave that up, when I went to you. university and just wanted to drink and, you know, party like everyone does when you're 18. Yeah. I obviously had, like I still loved fitness and I love training. So that's when I got into the gym, which I think is kind of the natural progression for girls especially, like go grow your glutes and get strong. Did that for a few years.

Did make a lot of progress. Did train really hard. But you do kind of hit a ceiling. You can't grow forever. You can't get stronger forever. We'd have girls squatting like a thousand kilograms. So hit a bit of a ceiling. and then missed the competitive element.

So obviously coming from the track background, I loved competing. Like I'd compete most weekends in the summer. And then that's what I found with endurance training. So training for my first half marathon. My first marathons, the Hirox's is a competitive outlet that I think I was missing with just the gym. How is like your mindset sort of changed around the whole thing going from sort of being in the gym to then doing hybrid? Like what's that shift mentally like?

I think. So I think I'm quite like. lucky that because I did the sprinting when I was younger, like a lot of the kind of like habits that you need for performance sports and the drive, like I've kind of had it instilled in me from so young that it was always there. So in that sense, I feel like it's just a part of me from literally when I was a kid. I was going to say I think that's quite a like natural character arc that sporty kids go on is that actually they they spend that time, you know, I think, because I was the same, like I was really sporty. I'm a very very, I'm a very,

very competitive person, did sports all throughout like my childhood. And you kind of see the grass is always greener, right? So you see everyone else going out and like partying and you're like, but I want to do that. But I think that you'll always come back and I always see on social media people talking about that, about like your 20s is about just kind of going back to the things that you loved as a child, which I think it's lovely. I think it's just as well, having like performance goals it just gives you so much more, like enjoyment in the journey, I guess, like when you have a specific end goal, whereas obviously with aesthetic goals, there's not really, I mean, you'll obviously get to an end point where you're happy, but there's not a defined set end goal that you could go on

endlessly, whereas at least with a time-based goal, like a race or a competition, it does just give you a lot more fulfillment in the training process. Like I don't ever get bored of hybrid training, whereas I did get bored of just strength training and doing the same leg day for no, real reason. I really relate to that, actually. I think that's kind of like... She's had the same kind of journey from... I think it does kind of get that way.

And in fact, I was actually watching an old video of yours that you've done on YouTube and you were saying as well, I'm sure it was on YouTube. You were talking about like it's also for like the social element, which I think a lot of people don't discuss about like more hybrid training or just kind of dipping your toes into different types of like disciplines within fitness. It's like gym can at times be quite isolating. You know, you just go there. A lot of people are like working busy nine to fives,

just want to get in, get their head down. And then I think when you're exposed to the world of like running and run clubs or, you know, for me I tried like cycling clubs, it just feels a lot more sociable, which I think a lot of people really crave in their adult life. And that's obviously why fitness is on the up since COVID. But I think it's also when you do a CrossFit class, or something crazy.

I don't know what the psychology of it behind it is. I know there's something, but when you've gone through something really hard with other people, it brings you together. So like when you've done that same horrible CrossFit class, you're like, oh my God, those burpees, like they were awful, whereas obviously in the gym, everyone's kind of on their own journey doing their own workout.

Whereas with a class, I think you can have people not really talking before and then everyone's suddenly best friends afterwards because you've both done the exact same workout. For someone that, like, is wanting to get into, hybrid training or just like try new things they may be go to the gym currently and they're just like I have no idea what to do how to navigate that what's something that you'd recommend what did you do to kind of kick start that ball rolling yeah so I can tell you what not to do for sure which is when I initially started I wanted to just do the exact same lifting program while also doing all this

running so I just combined basically like a full on lifting program with a full on running program which is just too much. Like my body wasn't recovering and I was just constantly like legs were so sore, so fatigued. So I would definitely say before you do anything, take a step back,

figure out what your actual goals are, maybe pick like one or two main goals that you can then get a plan in place for. So if you just want to get better at running, you can say, okay, I'll add in two running sessions per week or two running walk interval sessions per week and work back from the goal that way.

That's tip number one. two, definitely to go out and find a gym with classes or run clubs or things like that, because having other people to do it with, one, they can teach you, and two, it's a lot more motivating and it's social, like we said. So that's definitely tip number two. Number three. Just try a bit of everything and see what you actually enjoy because I think as well a lot of people think they need to get into running because they're seeing everyone else do it, whereas

actually, so personally for me, right, I look at people and I'm like, why would you not want to run an ultramarathon? and it's amazing. Like, how does this not, like, make you so excited? But if you ask me to do, like, a triathlon or a bike, like, that doesn't interest me at all. So it's definitely trying different things and what actually interests you,

not just copying what you think everyone else is doing. How do you, because I think naturally, there's always going to be things that we like to do and we prefer to do and things that we are less inclined to want to do. Something that I've actually, me kind of asking this for my own personal game. But, you know, right now I'm on a high, high rocks training block and I'm having to do well it's more so that I'm training for it and I'm

training with sort of intensity where I now don't have time to do the sessions that I do love like I love for the social aspect doing CrossFit but for me that intensity of those sessions paired with doing high rock training I know is a surefire way to get an injury so how do you kind of like settle with that in your mind when you do have these training blocks where you're like like, are, okay, I'm going to have to kind of just lock in on that for a while. Is that even something that you face as a problem? No, it definitely is. I think, so for example, like personally with my,

when I was trying to train for my ultramarathon, but I had so much high rocks going on, I can't run anymore. Like, I physically can't add anything else in. It's a difficult one because obviously there will be times when we don't want to train and do things. I think it just comes down to how much you really want that goal. Like, for example, you how much you really want to do that,

high rocks. And I think just always remind yourself, okay, I want to do well in this. It's a short term thing. And then when you're done with the high rocks, you can go back to, I'm guessing it's talking about obviously CrossFit. But I think one, not forcing yourself to do things you really don't want to do. So I don't know, if I signed up for a triathlon and I really didn't want to do it, that's obviously not a good idea because I'm not going to enjoy any part of it. Whereas if it's more you do want to achieve that goal. You do want to do the high rocks. It's just not your ideal situation. Just remind yourself, okay, when I'm on that start line, when I get that through that finish line, it will be worth it. And it's an eight week, 12 week block, whatever it is.

And just remind yourself that it will end. You're so right for that. Yeah. Even like when it's like dark and cold and like this is we're going to get this a lot because we're coming into winter now. It's obviously, I'm really not a winter person. Like I can't get myself to do anything when it's dark. So I'm just trying to remind myself like, okay, I actually want to do this high rocks. I signed up for a reason. Like, just got to get the work done. Yeah, that's actually really helpful to think about that end goal and just be like, you know, I want to succeed. And the only way I'm going to get there is by actually, you know, really giving this a good crack. Like my first high rocks I did, I literally did it with like three days prep, which is like ridiculous. Like, come on now. That's

just like seeing what you can do. Whereas it's like, no, you know, let me try and actually fully send it rather than just give it 80%. So the first one's always hard as well because say if it was your second hierarchy, you'd done the first one, you'd seen the hard work pay off. You know, okay,

once I put in this work, it's all going to be worth it. But because you haven't done that yet, like you said, you didn't really prep for the first one, you haven't had that high moment yet. You're just in the work phase and it's all a bit hard and boring.

But I think once you've done that first hierox, and you see the result of all your hard work, it'll be worth it. So then for the next one, you can always remind yourself, well, think where I got to you last time. If I put in the work again this time, I'll be even better and it'll be even better of a result. What are your go-toes to kind of, if you are in a little bit of a rut where you're not enjoying your training?

Like, what are your immediate, like, reaches where you know that that's going to, like, flip that session round for you? I think small things like having good music makes such a difference and making sure you're fuelled going into it, just those small things. But also personally, like, I've got a high rock coach. So having the accountability makes a huge difference because it's, I know that once I do the workout, I'm going to feel better, but sometimes we obviously don't want to do it. But having the accountability of like, well, I'm paying for this person, this person's checking up on me, the accountability makes a huge difference.

But also things like sometimes if I don't want to do my own high rocks workout or if I'm just not feeling very motivated, I will jump into classes sometimes. It might not be the exact same workout, but it's a very similar stimulus, like as long as you're working to the same kind of level of intensity and that can switch it up sometimes. It's a good alternative. Yeah, I always think training call a friend is a great way to just, yeah, punch some sort of like excitement back into the workout.

I actually am just, it's funny, I've been training for four years and because I have a very strong aversion to being told what to do, I've yet to have actually ever had a coach. And this training is my own. Oh yeah, I see it's so everyone. No, no, I don't. I'm just doing this for the pure enjoyment. However, I've realised kind of moving more into performance that that isn't really going to cut it if you keep doing that.

You're not going to succeed too well. It's so hard though, because like when you want to do everything as well and like I really want to do everything, you kind of have to be like, okay, I can't do everything like all at once. So like I've been in a big strength block. But now as I shift more into high rocks, I can't be lifting three rep maxes twice a week. my legs will just be shot. So it's also kind of just, oh, I hate it, but like having to be a bit realistic as well. I don't know if you know her, my friend Georgie. I'm doing it with her and she's a high rocks coach as well.

So I, God, the accountability card really does work, doesn't it? Like I am such a people please or I'm like, I don't dare miss a session or like, you know, if I'm not feeling on form. And I had this, I think I was like pre-period. So I really couldn't for some reason do many pull-ups. And I was just like, I just want to. tell you, I wouldn't, so it does really work. I'm really like, oh, okay, I get my people do this now. I guess something else, like, for your specific case of the highrocks, where you're doing it

with her, you'll keep telling yourself, like, well, I don't want to let her down in the race. So, like, and this is actually something that, so when I do high rocks, I race with a girl who's so quick and she's just rapid and definitely, she's ahead of me. Like, I'm chasing her. So I already know that just by increasing my running, our time will already massively improve. So that's why I also, when I have the really hard running sessions that are like horrendous, when I'm running, I'm literally imagining myself in a high rock race and I'm imagining myself keeping up with grace. And that's a good thing, I guess, for your case is you can just always refer back to, okay, well, I want to be as good as Georgie. Yeah, visualised. Honestly, like, when I'm on the treadmill and it's dark and I like see my reflection, I'm just imagining that I'm in a race.

Like, it works so well. Next one, you have a whole session do it. I absolutely will. I will. So obviously we spoke about like how hard it is to balance like all of these things have all of these fingers in all of these pies. But like has it been a challenge for you to navigate over training and avoiding injuries that sort of thing? Because that's territory I can imagine is quite hard to move into. So especially at the start because I wanted my two crazy leg days per week. that's what I wanted and I wanted to run five times a week and I wanted to do the high rocks or whatever it was. The first thing I would say is that it does get easier over time. So I can run five days a week and do a leg day.

So that's six days of like legs. And now I can cope with it. But that's because I've been doing it for a year and a half or whatever it is. So with time it does come. But it took me a really long time to let go of the fact of doing two leg days because in my head it was just Well, that's what I've done for how many years. If I don't keep this up, I'll lose all my progress. But I think the turning point is when you realize,

okay, well, I'm actually not making progress in anything because I'm just doing too much. So I can either go back to the strength trading or, you know, figure out my volume, which is what I did. I think something else is that I'm quite good at not pushing through niggles and things. Because in the past, I have pushed through, and you always regret it. So I've pushed through back pain and ended up having, like, three slips discs and then you're out for so much longer than a couple of weeks.

So I'd say now when I get a flare up, I'm quite good for stopping and resting for a few days. And I think that's something that a lot of people, especially with social media, it's like the grind and everything. People think you have to push through and it has to be like go, go, go all the time. But I think once you've had an injury from doing that, you realise it's just not worth it. You'll better to have like a couple days off or a week off and you will be back. So like with my ultra, I miss. Basically with the ultra, we trained. like seven weeks from like 20k a week to 100k a week training, which is not a good idea. Definitely don't recommend.

And obviously I got a, we think it was like 10 deniers in the back of my knee, but it was like really sharp pain. So, and I obviously didn't want to stop training because I knew this ultra was on the horizon and I needed to get in these miles. Like I needed to do these really long runs. But I also knew that if I push through this, I'm going to injure myself and I won't even make it to the start line. So I did have like a whole week off training and it went away and I was fine.

So I think it's that like dropping the ego and just knowing that a couple days off is better than a couple of months. Oh yeah, absolutely. But it is hard. Like I've learned that from experience from injuring myself. What would your action plan be? Like do you ever see the physio or do you have like a plan in pace with like the sort of intensity you train at where you have like a really kind of like nailed down recovery plan? Recovery, nutrition and sleep are always the biggest things. And I would say I try and sleep I'm good with.

I can sleep. Food could sometimes be better when I'm busy. I'll go for like meal deals and things, but generally it's quite good. Those are definitely the biggest drivers. I also get like a sports massage deep tissue every two weeks, which definitely I find helps loosen me up. I have compression boots as well,

which probably not as effective as a massage, but to pop them on sometimes definitely helps. But something that's really helped for me is, so back in March when I was high rock training, I again went from doing not very much running to a lot of really quick running and I started getting like shin splints and some weird calf compression thing. So I went to go get like a full strength test done with I call them physios, but they're actually podiatrists is what their qualification is, but I basically call them my physios. And they did a full strength test of like my toes, my ankles, hips, knees, like everything. And they basically found that everything was really weak or like not everything.

So my compound strength, like my quads and my hamstrings were strong, but my toes, ankles, hips were really weak. So especially comparatively to the rest of me, but just not coping well. So since then they've given me, I must have gone to see them maybe like five times since then. Every time I go, they give me more exercises. And then when I retested the last time I was there,

everything's got stronger and like touchwood. I haven't had any of the injuries come back. So that was a worthwhile thing doing. It's obviously like a bit of an investment up front. but when I compete as much as I do and it's my job and I love it, like it's kind of a worthwhile investment in my opinion. Yeah, absolutely. I was struggling with shin splints actually.

And shin splints is one of those kind of like ominous things that they can, I found out through research and through talking to people that shin spilence is like kind of like a very broad term that I think a lot of people suffer with when they start running, but it could really be a whole heap of different things. I think a big issue that I found that I think, a lot of people get shin spints through and could avoid getting shin spins through is by yeah like you say not having that strength built up in those smaller muscle muscle groups like yeah okay you might have you might do like leg days and you might go to the gym but are you actually

working on those muscles that are taking so much of a beating when you are running yeah like strengthening as well like I've never trained calves before and now it's like a staple Like even the toe, is it toe raises and like doing all those sorts of things to like strengthen and just like kind of yeah, build everything up to kind of support all of those running things. Yeah. Yeah. So that's what I do. I get a little resistance balance and I loop it around my toes and I just go like that with it. So when are you fit?

Like in my head I'm thinking so when are you possibly fitting that in? Like I know everyone talks about like, yeah, you know, stretching is really important. Like that's another thing. It's like, yeah, I know I should do it. but like, yeah, when? Okay, I'll be honest, I'm not the best. I was really consistent with it when I had the injuries, because then you kind of have to.

And then obviously they got better, and now I kind of do it probably not as often as I should. Because it is hard. It's like an extra, could be like an extra 10. Well, if you're stretching and doing that, it could be like an extra half an hour on your day, which if you're already training twice per day, it's like crazy.

So it's hard. It's like a do as I say, not as I do, because I'm not very good at myself. But it's just trying to. remember that you kind of have to treat it as it's the training itself like if i don't do this rehab work i'm not going to actually be able to train and perform that's the mindset but i think we could hold each other accountable because i'm not the best yeah no no exactly but no one is but it's yeah it's necessary yeah absolutely um what's what does like an i can't be bothered training day look like

for you or how do you tend to motivate yourself when you do feel like i just can't be bothered I think honestly, like as soon as I'm in the workout, I'm in it and then I'm okay. So it's just getting out the door and getting warmed up, especially like the CrossFit gym I train out for my high rocks. It's so cold. Like, well, I'm literally like track suits, like warming up, but still freezing and you have to take everything off. But then as soon as I've started, I'm okay. So I think it's just remembering that as soon as you get out the door, it's fine. And I think there's this, there's this like mindset trick that I actually used to use.

it's like the five minute rule where you tell yourself, I only need to do it for five minutes. And if I still can't be bothered, then I can stop. And that's kind of enough to get you out the door and get started. But like 99% of the time, once you've actually started, you'll feel good and you'll want to carry on. So that's a good little mindset you can tell yourself, oh, you only need to run for five minutes, then I can come back.

And then you'll just do the whole hour or whatever it is. Yeah, yeah. I've actually, I've heard something similar to that about, I think they used it. The thing that I heard was about in reference to like starting the gym, like if it feels really, really overwhelming, just in terms of like forming that habit, start off by just going there for, like, just walk in, walk out.

Yeah, and people will be like, why would you go to the gym just to walk? But actually that's maybe someone getting, like you said, getting the habit built, just being in vicinity. So obviously with like all of these like performance goals, like we spoke about in mind, like it still amazes me and I am, it's so in awe.

And I feel like the thing that's quite unique about you is how unbelievably aesthetic you look. And I just wonder, do you think that a lot of that's genetics? Do you think a lot of that's just like the way that you structure your sessions? Like, are you really, really super optimal with those gym days that you have? Like, how have you maintained it? And for anyone that doesn't know, Abbey has, like, the most unreal physique. Like, literally, I feel like you could fully just, like, jump on stage

and do bodybuilding at any given point. time. You know when people talk about like, oh yeah, as soon as you start running, you're going to lose your glutes? No, this girl has glutes for days. Thanks, Sid. So one, definitely I think genetics does help because I'm so much more of like a so like I said I used to be a sprinter, right? Like fast twitch muscle fiber girl. So like strength training comes quite. One, I do work really hard. Like I'll give myself credit for that. but also naturally I think it comes to me quite easily. So like squatting double my body weight, RDALing double my body weight.

Like I can do that fairly easily, which I think comes down to genetics. And that's with the sprinting. I think if you put me on a track now, I'd still be able to sprint just because genetically that's what I'm better at. So that definitely helps. So and because I spent like three year, four years purely strength training, like my base was kind of already. really built, which is, and it's easier to go from strength training than adding in running, then be trying to do both right from the start, because it's obviously a lot easier to maintain muscle than it is to build it. So I think it's that. And then also, I kind of definitely

go through different phases of the year. So I'd say my physique stays pretty much the same, but it definitely does vary a bit. So like when I was doing high rocks properly, I was not really strength training at all, whereas coming off the back of it, I've been so consistent. in the gym the last eight weeks and like kind of have gone more back to like a true strength program where I'm lifting heavy I'm doing squats, RDLs, hip thrusts progressively overloading every single week and then I've obviously built some muscle and strength now which I can then maintain through my high rocks and it kind of be working like meso cycles like that is definitely the best way to do it but genetics definitely and like the background that I have like I was pure

sprinter strength training hypertrophy for years and years and years and I'm still actually relatively new to endurance training. I always see that on social is actually about like sprinters physiques. Yeah. Insane. Do you know Kelly Matthews? Yeah. That's who I was referencing.

Yeah. Well, she's like the dream physique, right? But she's like an ex-sprinter, I think. Yeah. In her 30s, with the most insane physique. Yeah. Incredible. With those strengths sessions, do you think a lot of like your work is still

hypertrophy focus? Like, do you think? At the moment, yes. But it depends. Like, so when I'm really deep in high-rox training, it won't be because it will be more muscle endurance kind of power. So lots of supersets, high-rep ranges, because when you're on a high-rox race, and you're doing sled push, that lasts a couple of minutes. That's not five reps.

But right now, it is more strength and hypertrophy-focused. So you can have both as long as you're realistic. and you are picking maybe like two main things at once. And you're not saying, I want to do strength, I want to do hypertrophy, I want to do high rocks, and I want to train for a marathon and an ultra marathon all at the same time. That's obviously not possible.

So it's kind of having specific focuses and then everything else at maintenance, and then you shift that every eight weeks. So right now I'm running and strength. The strength will kind of dip to more maintenance, and it'll be the running and the high rocks, and then the running will kind of go a bit, and it'll be like the high rocks is the main priority.

So that's how I kind of cycle my training. Okay, that actually makes so much more sense. It's like you can have it all, but you have it all within reason and within the cycles of like purely focusing on something until you then finish that training block and move on to the next thing. Yeah, like your three pillars. I'm like, only your third hand, but they kind of all just like jump up and down.

They're all always there, but it's different things at one. Yeah. So like within a year, within like a given year, you've done like so much of everything. But actually if you break it down and look at it a little bit closer, then you'll realize that actually you've really given it, it's time and its moment to just like lock in and focus on that specific goal.

Yeah, amazing. And you obviously can do everything at one, like at the same time, but you're not going to have the same results because you can't do five runs, five hierops and five strength. So you maybe do like one run, one hypox and a couple of strengths. So that you can still do everything, but that's not the most optimal way.

The most optimal way is having those different meso cycles, like I said. And of course, we all know that like nutrition no matter what your goals are has such a big like impact and it's such a huge factor of anybody's sort of fitness journey how does your nutrition change depending on like what goals you're working towards or does it um so i don't track anything now but okay when i first started the gym and my goals were like muscle growth i tracked like everything and got really in tune with nutrition so now I can kind of eyeball things and I know. But the biggest change coming from hypertrophy to hybrid training for me was when

your hypertrophy training, they're like if it fits your macro's approach is kind of fine. You can get away with time protein shakes and oats and that's fine. Whereas with the hybrid training, I find that food quality is really important. Like if I'm not eating nourishing foods, I just feel so sluggish and bloated in my sessions. So that's definitely the biggest change is like more micronutrients and just better, more whole foods. And then obviously just eating more. Like I'm so much hungrier with the amount of running that I do. And I try and make sure that I'm eating small, not necessarily small, but like frequently throughout the day,

as opposed to just three big meals and like really making sure that I'm having my carbs before and my protein after. But I'm definitely not perfect. I think when I'm busy, like with anyone, like it is difficult because you just want the quick option and it does take more time out of your day to meal prep on a Sunday like that who wants to be spending on Sundays meal prepping and I don't do it which is and I should do but I think as long as you're good 80% of the time as well because it's also important to enjoy the foods that you love and not be too strict and too over restrictive because that's obviously not sustainable. Don't you find that like when you switch make that switch to performance that something kind of

just like it somehow rewires your brain chemistry where you actually are able to see the food for it is as fuel. Everyone says it to you, but until you feel it, you're just like, you're not interested. It's not actually affecting you, but you feel it so much. Like, it's when I started high rock training and I was having two, the first time I was really doing two sessions a day, like my second session, if I just eat like a meal deal or just, I don't know, protein bars for lunch, the second set, like I feel it so much and you're kind of like forced to take action.

but it's like even I think with things like um I don't know if you have like a whoop or anything but you know your sleep alcohol obviously ruins your sleep when you can actually see your whoop is telling you your heart rate variability is so low from having like one drink or whatever it is and you're thinking okay my body is actually from one you can see it it just makes it more real even though you know it and everyone tells you to actually see it in front of you or feel it is crazy do you drink alcohol or do you I do but not

not very much. Like I wouldn't drink it at home during the week but maybe like out for a meal on the weekend or like on holiday I will like I love a cocktail I love an apparel. I'm definitely not like

restrictive. If I want one, I'll have one but I'm not a huge drinker because I don't really like wine or beer or anything. I'm not like a, no that's wrong words.

I'm a social drinker not a at home drinker. It sounds to me though with like everything sort of nutrition and lifestyle wise that you do, have like a pretty good grasp and like grip on everything in moderation and knowing and kind of

understanding that like balance doesn't just mean only doing healthy things it actually means yeah enjoying the bits you want to when you want to yeah because I also think like with obviously what we were saying with performance that you want to feel good a lot of the time so the majority of the time you do actually want to eat well anyway so it's not really so much for oh I have to eat well I have to eat this like vegetables like when you don't want to. Whereas if you're restrictive, you're constantly going to be thinking like, I just want to eat this bad food like all the time.

Whereas we only, I don't know about you. I don't crave bad things that often because I do just allow myself to eat it when I want it. Yeah, but I think because nutrition is such an important part. But it's also tricky. I think so many girls especially because I definitely when I first started was probably too strict. I think everyone goes through a phase of being too strict. especially girls and then you can't learn the hard way that actually having this extra cookie isn't going to do anything it actually benefits me in the long run yeah just for a little morale boost you know

yeah you mentioned earlier about like you know when you are feeling when you are in these like really busy periods and when you do have like a lot on your plate that your food and nutrition starts to kind of slip a little bit what are things that you kind of try at least to put in place do you do meal prepping or anything like that because I think a lot of people hear this and they're like, oh, I'd, yeah, obviously love to eat very well and that sort of thing, but I just literally don't have the time when I'm working and then I'm training and I'm training and I'm looking after the kids and God knows what else. Do you have any advice there? So I sometimes get meal prep, but obviously that can be quite expensive. My go-to, like,

quick meals is so, like, boring, but I'll get, like, packet rice and prawns and, like, some veg that I can just throw in the oven. Like, no prep meals. basically which would take like five minutes or like egg fried rice super easy like I'll just get a packet of rice scramble an egg in it that's easy tuna and rice this is so bad but like there are there's a theme here they are like chicken sausages are super quick it's just obviously not like a meal it's not like a nice tasting meal but I'll kind of just use those on repeat until I get sick of them yeah and just being like smarter with with what you're yeah what you're choosing to make It doesn't need to be about all bells and whistles to be able to be a, like, healthy and nutritious meal.

A tiny bit of planning before going food shopping definitely goes a long way. If you have actual food in the house that's not, like, I have a load of protein bars in the house. And if I don't have a good food shop, that's what I'm eating, which is, there's nothing wrong with a protein bar, but you don't want to be living off protein bars. So just like a little bit of planning before you go to the shop. So you've got the basics, like rice, bread, like potatoes. Like potatoes are another really quick one. you can just boil some potatoes. It takes two seconds.

So just having like your staples that you try and get every week. But it is hard. The thing I struggle with most and something that I really have actually noticed since doing high-rocks training where I think there is just this like higher intensity to it is needing to have a pre-workout meal. I've never really been someone that's needed a snack or anything before. Always kind of just been like, oh, you know, it's fine. No.

That's not going to fly. yeah literally need the carbs otherwise you best believe i'm hitting that wall like you know an hour into the session and i'm just like not able to give anything uh what do you like to do for that do you do that okay yeah so if it's early in the morning because it's sometimes it is hard when you don't have an appetite i'll just have toast with peanut butter and banana that's always my morning go-to-to-do or then if so sometimes i do like two morning sessions back to back and even if i'm not really hungry, I know I need to refuel. So I like, you know the ESN oat bars, they're like a flapjack basically because they're quite easy to get down, but super dense. So it's basically something like

a flapjack, banana sometimes, or sometimes if I'm really don't have an appetite, like energy gels or a carb drink, because that's easy to get down. But always something definitely before like a 110th session, because I think I used to be able to go, maybe similar to you, I used to you, I used to be able to go to the gym, like strength training without eating, and I'd be fine. I actually used to feel like I had a better session without eating, which is weird. But like you said, you just can't, you get dizzy, like you don't have the energy, you burn through everything so quickly, all your glucose. So, yeah, drinks and oils are the easiest to get down.

Or like dates as well. I heard you saying in your ultra race that you were referencing, it was in one of your videos and you were saying that it's more of, people call it more of like an, an easy. eating race than a running race. What was what like what is we'll go into the ultra actually. I want to hear all about it but like what is your general when you're doing more endurance races like what what's your general um fueling strategy that you like to use that works for you? Number one eat before you're hungry. If you're hungry you're fading it's already too late. So it's you've got to think of it as like you're staying on top of your energy levels. You're not waiting for them to dip. So when it comes to like marathon

training, I'll have a gel every half an hour, which is probably overkill. Like if I'm training one every hour, but in a marathon where you're going so hard, one every half an hour. In a Hirox race, I'll take one gel right before and one halfway through the race. So I kind of keep it in my sports spot. And sometimes I feel like I don't need it. Obviously you don't feel hungry when you're in the middle of this workout. But again, like I said, it's just staying on top of those energy levels. And when you're training or working so hard, your body does need it. Once every, hour for a training run once every half an hour for a competition is the general rule of thumb and then the ultra was just as much as possible basically what gels do you like to use what's your

preference the ESN hydro what they even called hydro something hydro gel what flavor do you like I actually like all of them the green apple is my least favorite I love the lemon ginger I love that I actually love lemon and ginger anyway but it's a w it sounds a bit weird but it's you're really nice. But they're just, because they're watery, aren't they? They're a lot easier to get down. I was going to say that. It is a lot easier.

Like, I think a lot of people do really struggle with, like, gut issues and, like, with trying out gels. Like, it's definitely something you do not want to be doing on race day. That's something you want to be trialing out. But a lot of gels, yeah, do have, like, that kind of, like, gel consistency. When you're struggling to get it down, like, just having a watery consistency, knock it back. Yeah.

I prefer it. My friend who I did the ultra width and I'm doing the marathon with, we like trained together like 90% of the time. And we had our gels. We were doing a 30, we were doing our longest marathon run. We were doing 34K. And I'm literally like,

I shot mine back and I was just done so quickly. And she was in disbelief because she had like a really big, thick one. And you're breathing heavy. You can't breathe and eat at the same time. So it's just quite difficult. I think for high rocks as well because like in high rocks, you're so,

fuck. It's like you're literally, can't breathe. Like you need to be able to just get it down. and not be chewing on a gel. I've been kind of lucky that I've never really struggled. Must have a gut of steel. Yeah.

Yeah, I empathise with people that do. So I've normally, I've never had issues with gels or anything, but I have had issues with them. It's like, so basically for the ultra, we were trying to eat real food, obviously, not just gels the whole time. And you know when you can get like little pancakes and like pan of chocolate from the shop,

they did not go well with me. But I think that's because, it's obviously must just be processed to keep it. You know the ones that's in the little pancakes. plastic packets. It's obviously not like fresh. I just gave me really bad like stomach cramps. That gave me issues. But yeah, generally I touch wood. Okay so far. But yeah, I always use the ESN one. So at least I know that when it comes to a marathon day, I'll be fine with those. And what about electrolytes as well? Is that something that is like a big part of your race plan?

For the marathon. Well, and high rocks, actually. It's hot. You can't really, unless you're carrying like a vet. I don't like running with a vest. I'll just have like a tiny belt. Like I'll use the water on the course. So that's more staying on top of it in the three days leading up to the race, making sure I'm really hydrated going into it. And then just drinking the water they give me on the course.

I do actually have some little, like they're just from Amazon, like little salt tab. They're like chewable tablets. Yeah, I've tried those before. Yeah. Because the problem is with, you have a lecture, you just can't mix it or like even if you have a small cup of water, If you've got like a gram of salt, it's just some taste.

It'll make you sick because it's so salty. But it's definitely more leading into the race. My problem is with, which this is for Lisbon, my goal is to not do this. I will always like overhydrate and drink so much water in the morning of because I'm nervous and then just like really need a weed the whole time. So I bet that's just overkill. I think if you're hydrated in the days leading up to it, that's the most important thing. Then trying to cram it all in.

And like carbs even, you should be carb loading like a few days before a race, not the one meal before the race. Yeah, I saw something you were saying before about how like you also don't want to overdo it because I think that's I, okay, I'm a foodie girlie. So tell me I need carbs. I will absolutely send it. Like I think for Sydney Marathon, which I did like this year, I ate so many carbs that by the end of it, I was so bloated before the race.

And I think that's also something that people don't talk about, which I heard you mention. And I was like, at Medcan, we know that life's greatest moments are built on a foundation of good health, from the big milestones to the quiet winds. That's why our annual health assessment offers a physician-led, full-body checkup that provides a clear picture of your health today. And may uncover early signs of conditions like heart disease and cancer. The healthier you means more moments to cherish. Take control of your well-being and book an assessment today. Medcan, live well for life.

Visit medcan.com slash moments to get started. Great point. It's so hard as well to remember because when you're doing these races like Sydney, you're exploring a new city, you're not, you know, you just want to have fun. The last thing I'm really thinking about

is I need to be eating this many grams of carbs and this much water, so it is difficult and then it gets the day before, no, I haven't eaten anything. Yeah. But definitely the goal is to try to do it a few days before and just be staying on top of those like levels instead of trying to cramble in.

On to the Ultra, which was 92 kilometres in Sweden. You actually did it with a friend, a girl that you met at a run club, right? Which is so cute. Love that. Yeah. So like we live in the same place, but just had never crossed paths. Went to a run club and obviously just figured out that we both really love running. And she'd said that day, oh, my boyfriend's family is Swedish.

There's this ultramarathon. Like I'd love to do one one day. and I think like literally then and there we were like, should we just sign up? Should we just do it together? Like literally having met each other for like five minutes and we went home and we booked it and then didn't really think about it

because I just had so much high rocks on. Obviously I was still running but not in the same way. She did a marathon in Marathon in Marathon maybe so she was training for that and then had a bit of time off and then it got to like seven weeks before the race after I was done with Chicago. High Rocks was and we thought okay right

we better start trading now so we just every single morning we're up running together. But it was actually so, the training was actually so fun because it's so much zone too. So the actual set, it's time on your feet and it's long, but it's not actually hard. So we basically were just like talking for hours and hours every week just like catching up chit-chatting. So that's, I can't imagine training for it on my own. That would be like a whole different ballgame. Like when we had our like five hours running on the weekend, it was hard, but we were doing it together. Like I think doing it by yourself is like a whole different challenge. Like it's

crazy. Why is it that the best friendships are always formed at run clubs? Like I met Georgie, the girl I was talking about earlier, like, I met her at a wrong club on January 1st and we literally have been like that since. I think that's so lovely that you get to train with someone like all the time as well. Like I'm very, very jealous. The race was really hot. It was really painful. I think partly because we obviously didn't train for very long. I can't imagine doing it on my own because there's such dark places but like knowing that I was doing it with someone the whole time. Like there was never a doubt in my mind that we weren't going to finish it. But because we were together, I think it would have been, I can't even.

It would have been like a million times harder alone because it was really hard. What was your peak run? Like what did you, what distance did you get up to in the training block? So, okay, we did a marathon. Then we had 55 kilometres. But I, that's, I had to pull out of that because of my knee. So that was one that I really didn't want to. to stop because I thought if I can do 55 mentally, that's such a big run, but I pulled out of it.

So knowing that I'd only done 42 and I had to do 92, mentally, that was quite scary. But we kind of, with ultra training, so the longer ultras as you do, it's not so much doing these crazy, like you're not going to do 100K training run. It's more just accumulated time on your feet over the months. So if you're running 100K a week for six months, that's really building up the strength in your tendons and your ligaments. And that's what we struggled with was it was our knees. We're so painful because we'd gone from running like maybe 30K a week

or like 20, 30K a week to 100K a week. We only reached those high levels like for two weeks. And you really just need to build up over time. So we really want to do 100 miles at some point, which is 160 kilometers. The training isn't that different. We'd be doing exactly the same just for longer. So really getting high mileage weeks, not just like two random ones. So that's what we've been doing since.

We've been trying to keep our mileage quite high around like 70, 80K, just to keep that baseline. And then we only have to go like a tiny bit up. I think I've actually heard that. I've been, my recent fascination is watching all of these live streams and then documentaries of these ultra marathon runners that are doing in the same things. But yeah, I kind of was thinking the same, like, how do they do that?

And then I think in one of the documentaries I was watching, they was talking about how, like, well, you'd maybe do like, a double training session. So it's high volume, but it's obviously not just in one, like, block of time, so that makes sense. Yeah, like things as well, like back to back runs. You might have a long run on Saturday and a Sunday.

Yeah. It's stimulate running on tired legs, but it's just time on your feet. And it's the more miles you get in on your body, like your knees, like your ligaments tend to just get stronger and stronger. So that's all it is. So that's why, and this is so interesting, right, For women, the peak ultramarathon age as well is like 30 to 40.

Like it's, and that's one pain tolerance, but also because they've spent so much more time on their feet. Like they've really built up that like 10, 20 years of running mileage. But it's, yeah, that's the way. I love it. And like start to beat the men because we were obsessed with watching all the documentaries, obviously after our ultra, feeling super inspired. And there's this woman called Courtney DeVolta, who's like the OG like female ultra marathon runner. and she's just incredible.

Like she does all the crazy, like Moab is this weekend, is it this weekend? Or like in a few days time, which is the 240 mile desert race. And there's just women like beating the men doing that, which is so cool. I was talking about that earlier with someone actually, that like the gap between men and women, the longer the distances closes between them, which I think is just like so cool. How did your feet hold up in the training?

Like was that, was it a short enough period that were actually, have you, lost toenails and things like that? I actually am quite lucky. I think because I'm a size four and a half and I get all my shoes in a five, I have that half gap anyway. I've never really, I've never lost toenails. After the ultra, I did think, you know, and they feel really bruised. I was convinced my toenails

would be gone, but after a few days they were a lot better. So I'm quite lucky in that sense that I haven't had issues, but it was our knees were in absolute agony. Like, because we were, it was 13 and a half hour. which is great. And the longest I'd ever run was four and a half hours to then do that jump was crazy. So our knees were just like screaming,

basically. Neither us that night could sleep, even though we'd had no sleep the night before. We'd been up at like two. We'd run for all that time just because our knees were so sore. I've heard of that actually, where your body's in so much pain

that you're just not able to sleep. You're like... No, and like everything was super seized up that evening. So I think we finished at like 5pm, so we had the whole evening to chill and we were literally like hobbling around. the room or the house even. And I thought that the next day would be worse.

But actually the next day, I still had aches and pains, but I could walk normally. Like I wasn't limping. I definitely think going to the gym and having strength helps with that. So I don't know how you recovered after your marathon as well. But I found that everyone says to you, oh, you're not going to have to walk for ages after your marathon. You're going to be in so much pain.

Whereas I found that I kind of get back to it quite quickly, but I think that is from having the strength and going to the gym, whereas some runners purely just run. Yeah, I was actually really surprised by that. I will say I was hobbling a week after my marathon, not because of like the doms or my muscle pain, but I had the worst, the worst blisters. Like I literally had the worst blisters,

which is strange because I think what Abby was mentioning earlier is that for anyone that doesn't know, is like they generally recommend to like definitely, definitely size it up. Like I think I'm a whole size. bigger, which to be fair could be my downfall. That could be the reason why I got blisters. But that's just to avoid your toenails whilst you're running,

like hitting the top of your shoe. But yeah, for me, I was covered in blisters. I'm talking under my toes, around my toes, on top. Like, I had so many. I thought I was going to lose a toenail because I had a blister there. Because I was worried about my shin splint injury, which I'd taken off time for

prior to the race. I was kind of like, oh my God, will I even be able to do it? So I chose, I didn't wear any kind of speedy shoe. I wore my everyday runner. I just think maybe the shoe is the wrong shape for my foot. Because the friction, I think it was just the friction of the toe box of the shoe, you know. So I was worried about blisters as well before the Ultra, obviously. I've got these like, I don't know what the brand is.

If you just go on Amazon and you search like anti-blister socks, wait, let me take it off and show you. Oh, there you go. They're called Danish Endurance. They were great. Like I didn't get, I got like one blister in the ultra. which was on the inside of my toes where I kind of get them a lot. And our shoes were getting wet and things as well. So, and they weren't that expensive.

So maybe that's worth any runners out there. If you've got a race. So talk us through the actual race itself. How was the experience? Obviously, you've done your marathons. Yeah. You know what you're in for there. Yeah.

Obviously, you're running at, I guess, a slower pace. Okay, so while going into it, I was quite nervous because I knew I'd missed that the longest I'd done was a marathon. I knew it was such a crazy extra distance. And there is a point where you have a limit, right? It's not always mind over the mat, like your body. Like sometimes your body reaches its limit. So like someone who has never run before, can't go out no matter how hard they want it and run 100Ks.

That was definitely in the back of my head. Like, am I actually ready for this? I don't know. And then obviously with the little like injury, I was just scared wasn't going to come back. So going into it, I was nervous. But when we were in it, this is the thing about ultras. It obviously is a run, but it's so different. to like a marathon, like the range of different people there, like when you looked around,

no one looks like stereotypical like athletes. It was the biggest range of like ages, body types, like literally everyone because it's so much more of like a mental battle than it's not really running. It's just time on your feet. A lot of it you're just plodding along really slowly. A lot of it you're walking as well. You're kind of like hiking up and down trails. So it's just so much more of like a mental battle and what can your joints actually sustain. then how fit you are. Like our heart rates were low the whole time. It is running, but it's not.

So you have marathon runners who are really quick, but couldn't do an ultra. And then you'd have ultra people that can run 200K, but their marathon would be quite slow. So it's two completely different sports, really. Although the top ultra people are crazy. Like they're doing like sub four minute pace for 100K, which is absolutely wild. But the majority of the people are just like everyday people, like, which is really cool to see. I think it's so lovely to see that like a sport where it really is for anyone. And like, I think that's why running in the first place exploded because of accessibility.

But I think it's so special just to see people. And I've heard like the running cult, the ultramarathon running culture is like very different as well. Yeah. Did you notice that? With like marathon running, I've never really come across people like this. But you can kind of see sometimes it's a bit cleaky. Like I don't know. You've got the top people who've been running for 10 years.

who are way quicker and just think they're a lot better than everyone else. You get some run clubs which I think are a bit exclusive because it's more competitive. People are racing for times and you have a PB and you've done a 5K. Whereas with the ultra, I think because the goal is just to finish, no one's asking you how quick did you do this, what pace did you run at? There's less of that competitive element. So it definitely feels more friendly and more welcoming.

Not that I think running is particularly, I don't think that running is unwelcoming, but there's definitely a difference. I think because it's just so hard and it is that mental challenge. I think everyone just has so much respect for each other knowing that no matter who you are, this is about to be so painful and so hard. So I definitely want to do more. It's just trying to fit it in amongst all the other goals,

like we said, you can't do everything at once because that was crazy to travel. And that was quite difficult. That's when I had to really lock in because it was just so many long zone two runs and I couldn't be doing like high rocks as well. And that was a bit like, oh, Like I just want to train hard and train speed,

but it was also knowing that I can't injure myself because I really want to do this ultra. But then once I've done it, it's all worth it. So yeah, I definitely want to do more, but just finding the time. Something that certainly kind of draws me in about endurance running. I kind of imagine this like, you know,

you've been on your feet for ages. You really meet yourself and sort of have this chance to see, like, what am I really made of? And hot take, okay, maybe I wasn't pushing myself hard. enough. I really, I, I like, pre-marathon, I said to my sister, I'm ready to come out a different one. Yeah. I'm ready. I just, I didn't feel it. But yeah, I just like, I really, I can imagine that you do feel that when you're doing it ultra. Can you explain, like, when you hit that place? Because you've explained that it was painful. I just want to know, like, take us through

that. The hardest part, right? Okay, so we, me and Ashtra just chat in our runs, right? And we were saying, what point do you think are we going to stop talking? Are we going to really just be in the hole? 60K, like 70K, like we might go a bit silent. So first of all, to get to this, basically you stay at the start line of this place called Mooran, Sweden. The start line was over here and you basically run. We had to get a bus at 2 o'clock in the morning to drive us to the start line to start

at 5 and then you run back. So we had to be up at 1.15 a.m. Obviously, nerves you haven't slept. So we were exhausted. did get to the start line. It's so pretty, sunrise is happening, really cool. Run around the corner, three kilometers, straight uphill. So with Ultras as well, you kind of, you walk the uphills and then run the rest of it. That's kind of just the known thing. But we had 3K of straight walking uphill. I know, okay, this is a little bit boring, like right at the start. My calves

were like on fire from the walk. Then we get to this like single trail track where it's one person after the other and it's like so much traffic that we're just walking and we're going so slow. It took us two hours to do 6K and we were like, oh my God, we're like, we're going to be hit. That's when it really hit us. It's like, it's going to be hard because we were like, oh, what will be done in like 11 hours maybe? And that's when it hit us like, no, we're, this is going to be long. And I think because we were so tired, we were drained and we were 6K in and it was struggling so much.

We weren't talking, exhausted, like plodding along behind all these people. and that was like a real moment of like oh what have we got ourselves in for to know that we've got all that ahead of us God it was not nice but then as soon as we started running like actually running we're like okay this is fun like we're enjoying this and definitely every time we saw to Astha's family

and her boyfriend came out to watch every single checkpoint we saw them it was just like the best thing ever but it was hard so like that early on and then obviously later on your body starts to just really break down and hurt and that's not enjoyable when did you start to feel that

like body break down. So the little niggle that I had in the back of my knee, weirdly I started getting the exact same pain but in the other side, but it was like a sharp pain like right behind my knee. But like that kind of, I don't know why that made, the fact that it was in the other knee made me feel better because then I thought, okay, well, it's definitely like an overuse thing than a real injury. So strange it made me feel a bit better, but that was about the halfway mark. So then at first I was like, oh no, I've got a long way left to go. But I kind of realized that it wasn't getting any worse. It was the same, but not getting worse. Then I thought, okay, I can still do it. It must have been around, I think, like, 50k in, so 40K to, a marathon to go is when, like,

knees and things were really starting to hurt. So the uphills and the downhills, so I couldn't really run uphill properly because of the pain in the back of my knee. And then the downhills were the worst because it's the impact. So everyone was walking the downhills, basically. And that was mentally hard, because you just wanted to run and get it over with, but it was just, like, agonising. Like, it's literally so bad, I can't even explain. But it's understandable when you've been running for 10 hours or whatever it was.

But it was hard. I think something that's so strange, though, is that I say to Astro, like, I almost, we were running for 13 hours, but I also don't remember it fully. Like, I feel like we just stoned out. Like, our brains were, like, protecting us. Like, we just went into this, like, different area of our brain

and just, it was just one foot in front of the other, like, just move. We weren't constantly thinking, like, what have we got to do next? How far have we got? I was going to ask you, like, what did you, how did you get through that? But maybe dissociating. Yeah, basically. And I think because when we're being so tired, that helped. But like, we kind of just dissociated. And then also, we had, we're going to treat ourselves to music in a marathon. Like, my top thing is in both of mine. I've done no music for 30K. Just listen to the crowd. And then music on for the last 10K. I did that. I did that. It's so good. So we were like, yeah, we can do this for the ultra.

We had the music, it just did not help at all. Like, we ended up turning it off because it was just annoying us. So that was hard. But I honestly think it was literally just keep moving forward, like, just knowing that we have to get this done. But it was like the hardest thing ever, but also the best thing ever. Sid, we need to sign up for an ultra and we'll do it together. And you will meet yourself. I got the opportunity to do the high rock.

Like, I'm not going to turn that down. It's fun to do it. But, you know, I'm working on speed for now for the rest of the year. And then I think, you know, next year, I think, insurance really interests me. I love exactly that, like having come from a gym background, like,

and kind of all the sports I've ever done have always been quite like, similar to you. Like they've always been like when I used to do competitive cycling, I used to be a sprinter. Like I've always kind of just been about like power output. Yeah, yeah.

Like when I did power lifting, it was all about like, you know, just max reps. But I think endurance, like testing yourself endurance wise is like different gravy. Like it really is, interesting and it's it's like that mental resilience and being able to like show up for yourself

and um this is actually a question i wanted to ask you like you know those training runs where it's dark and it's a sunday evening and it's like starting to rain and you're running and and actually commit into the goal and the journey and like still showing up and doing it i think that's where you really like you know that's where the growth really lies do you think the race for an ultra was harder or do you still think that your training runs were? Personally for me, I think the race was definitely harder, but that's also because I did my training runs with Astra. So it was more like a social thing.

Whereas I think if I was doing it on my own, honestly the training runs would be up there because when you're in a race for something, like even just a marathon, say, the race itself with the buzz of the crowd, like you did Sydney, which I can imagine was insane, it's just such an enjoyable experience. that even though it's longer and harder, it's so much more fun, whereas the training's the hard part.

So I would say, I reckon the training for most people, if you're doing it alone, is harder, but I was so fortunate that I had it with Astra. And, like, her sister came on a lot of the runs as well. So when we had, like, our marathon, we used to, like, 20K on our own. She'd come join us for 10K, and she'd, like, lift us up. So that's my number one tip for anyone. If you want to dabble in it and you're not 100% sure, like, do it with some. one first. Yeah, no, I really love that. One question I just want to ask you, just kind of going back

on myself here, talking more about trading runs, but when you were covering that long of a, like you guys were out running for like, what, five hours or whatever, where did you, what did you do for routes? Because quite often I'm like, I don't even know where to go. And that was only marathon training block. So what did you guys do? So we basically did the same loops over and ever again. So four, it's not idea. Where we normally run is we do a 6K loop. It's close to where we start from my house. It's like a short drive for Ashtra.

We do a 6K loop. So the longest run we've done for this marathon box was 34K. So what do we do? Six and a bit laps. That's obviously really boring. But definitely doing it with someone, it makes it, because you're kind of talking, it makes easier. But then for the ultra, because it was a trail ultra as well,

because we need to practice on trail. Astro found this 10K route that we just had to do multiple times because it's hard as well when you want to carry water and food because in a race they have the aid station set up whereas when you're running by yourself, you can't really go out and just run. Well, you wouldn't even want to run 20K away and 20K back because then you're worried that what if I end up too far away from my house?

So yeah, we just did the same loops, which is so boring. But doing it with someone. at Desjardin Insurance, we know that when you're a building contractor, your company's foundation needs to be strong. That's why our agents go the extra mile to understand your business and provide tailored solutions for all its unique needs. You put your heart into your company, so we put our heart into making sure it's protected.

Get insurance that's really big on care. Find an agent today at Dejardin.com slash business coverage. Yeah, do it with someone definitely. My biggest takeaway for everything, just do everything with someone. Also, you just don't want to be unsafe as well, do you? There's so many routes you could go blind. Do you know what I don't understand? Okay, Emily Fares, she's like running through the woods.

I'm like, I physically would be too scared to do that. Even if I knew I had that near me, I would just be so on edge that I couldn't enjoy it. So I'm very much stick to my little loop by my house. Yeah, I must admit, like daytime I'm fine. But definitely as like the seasons change, I notice a big difference in myself and I just would not even contemplate going out. I don't want to.

I'm not interested. It's so hard because I like would love to run outside, but when it is dark, I'm just like treadmill jail. Is that what you'll do? Yeah, so I've doing, I've been going early to get like my run in before to like 6 a.m.

And I'm just like on the treadmill. I think intervals on the treadmill are okay because you're moving through the different paces. it goes quite quickly if you're only working for a kilometre at time. It's the easy runs that are hard on the treadmill. I can't entertain myself. Like even podcasts or TV, I can't actually know, I lie.

I was watching an ultramarathon documentary the other week and that really got me going. Okay, nice. But not it's just hard, but it's just what can you do? And it's pushed off outside. Do you know that ultra marathon runner that's like popping off at the moment? The German guy, Kim, Gotwild. He did like 100K,000.

on a treadmill and I just thought what demons are you fighting that is absolutely insane that's crazy I remember I did what did I did 36 and that was like the worst thing I've ever done in my life like it was awful yeah I remember you doing that and you had no other choice did you well like I did but then actually I chose to do that like I kind of I did but it wasn't the best option so I'd like committed to this and then once I was on it up it was the worst even if it's you're with people do you really want to run it because I'm thinking like me and ayesha could run in the dark but would we even want to be running in the pitch bike by ourselves? I don't know. I know we've mentioned high rocks already but we have to mention you getting

fourth in the world champs which is like incredible. Did that take you by surprise? Was that something that you kind of expected? No, it was definitely a surprise. So I think we've done we've done three races together. Manchester was our first one where we beat our goal. Berlin we like smashed our goal So we kind of knew It was our first pro race was the difference We don't done open before Whereas at worlds you have to do pro

So we didn't really have a benchmark to work against I think we I'm trying to think I think our goal was like 65 And we came in at 59 or something Which is crazy But I think I definitely know that Like personally for myself

I definitely shine more on the doubles Coming from that sprinting background Like I can go hard if I have a rest So that stop start really works a lot better for me And obviously Grace is really quick So we do work well together in it But it was still a surprise Like when we saw that it was sub-60

Was crazy And like it's so not We were fourth by like three seconds or something And the most annoying thing is Grace had done Solo and mixed doubles I've done a solo already So like we were tired But we were starting thinking like

Oh if we knew that we were like three I think it was three seconds You start thinking of did we have pushed a bit harder but it's just not worth thinking about um but no we were like so happy so this year like i'm going to go all in on the doubles what does going all in look like for you like what are those changes that you'll make that you think will count yeah once lisbon is over like i'm going to be fully high rocks training so goodbye strength training i'll still be doing it but it's we're very much high rock specific so I'm not doing strength I'm not doing anything else which like we were going

back to I probably will get bored of after a little while but I just know that we've made so much progress and like this was my first season properly doing high rocks and grace is still new to it as well like really just seeing what we can do together so we've got London that's hopefully we'll qualify for worlds and then can like get the head down again because one mistake I made last year was doing too many competitions because when you're tapering for a competition you might obviously have the week before is pretty easy and the week after you're kind of getting back into it. Three weeks of training time gone.

So if you're doing that, like I think I did like six races because I was doing a few where I was doing like two races in a weekend, like six races in a month or something, it leaves no time to actually improve. So that's what change I'm making this year is booking less races and actually have decent training blocks. So I was meant to do Madrid solo in November. But I sacks that off because I'm like, I actually just want to train for this. doubles and have a solid eight-week block in between, which is what I will have.

So that loads of speed work, super fast intervals and just really hard sessions. Yeah. No, that makes so much sense. I think it's like so easy to be like, oh yeah, I just, I want to do it. Like, I want to book all of the races. But actually, never thought about that, that you're missing out on these really crucial lumps of training. Yeah.

Yeah. So you could have at least eight weeks really between every competition. I mean like towards when you've had a decent training block you can obviously get away with so like professional athletes for example like if you're training for the Olympics they'll do they'll train for the winter and then they've got lots of competition spread out in the summer really like priming themselves they can kind of get away with that because they've had the whole winter training block whereas if they were competing every two weeks throughout the whole year that wouldn't work so you can kind of get away with maybe like around worlds doing a bit more

as like practice like prep races but um yeah definitely I know need that training. But even from the ultra to now, the differences in my running has been crazy because I have actually had a training block, whereas towards the end of Hirox, I was just competing all the time and I just felt like I wasn't actually improving. It was just like grasping at straws, just like trying to hold on to what I had, basically. Probably should have mentioned this earlier. For anyone who doesn't know what Hirox is, can you explain what it is? The Hierox is a functional fitness competition, very similar to CrossFit, but technically easier. So you basically run a kilometre, perform an exercise station, and you do that eight times.

So eight kilometres and eight different exercise stations. But it's super accessible. So the stations are things like the rowing machine, sled push, wall balls. So they're all really challenging, but like technically they're not difficult. Like anyone could do it, whereas the difference of CrossFit is like a barbell station. snatch, not everyone can rock up and do that. So it's a functional fitness competition, essentially, with lots of running. I think the excellent thing about it is that they've created this race that anybody could do in virtually any gym, like any gym will have the equipment

that you need. What is your favourite and least favourite station? Oh, okay, least favorite would be I don't really like the urgs. I'm quite short, like the ski is not fun. And they're just long as well. favorite lunges or wobbles i think what are yours you're crazy to be decided i think i'm like quite powerful at rowing i think that's probably one that like i find easier it's not one i necessarily enjoy um that's the thing it's like trying to think hey what do i actually enjoy versus what am i just ranking farmers carry farmers carry i like blew myself away uh i think i've got like pretty good grip strength grip strength i just like bolted um but yeah the urgs No.

Need to work on those. I think, yeah, there's nothing that really stands out to me because it's all so hard. Yeah, exactly. When you're, this is the thing as well with the high rocks. The stations on their own are not difficult. So like if you're doing just a sled push and you're not tired, it's actually not that bad.

But it's when it's within the context of the whole race and you're tired and your legs are blown up, everything just feels hard. So it's a whole different thing. Whereas if I just gave you a warble and said, like, do 20 wobbles, you'd be fine. But when you're dying after the run, it's like the hardest thing in the world. What advice would you give for doubles? Well, for all of them, really.

Because I know that they are different, very much different races. You know, for context, if anyone that doesn't know, they have like the solos, then they have the doubles. And then they now also have like the, do they call it the relay? Yeah. Yeah. So it's like the amount of time that you're at. actually working out for them, I think of really big jumps. Yeah, they're super different races.

The solo is more of a pure endurance. Like, it's a long slog. It's just start to end, no rest. Whereas the doubles, sorry. So I think a lot of people think the doubles is half as hard because you're doing half or not half, because you're still doing the running, but they instantly assume, oh, well, the solo is harder than the doubles, which in some ways it is

but the doubles if you're doing it properly is so hard and so fast you're like pushing yourself to a higher intensity because you're getting that rest so the doubles is kind of like this whereas the solo is just like a long slog so there's so much crossover with the training obviously it's like an endurance sport

but with the doubles you can kind of go a bit harder in your training but like have it spit up so like intervals where you're actually resting whereas with the solo you might go more over under where you're continuously running the whole time basically and then the relay is just create the relay is like a sprint because i've heard it i've heard it's rough one one station so that's

just like flat out that's completely different um so yeah a lot of people think it depends who you're doing it with obviously if you do the doubles and you're both doing it together and you're doing it kind of more chill it will be easier because you're doing less work but it can also be really hard if you're really going flat out. I wave for other doubles. Yeah, I've got a solo one. Oh, which one are you doing? Manchester.

That's in January, right? Yeah. You'll be so fine. Yeah, I just got to just gotta do it, got to do it. Obviously, you've done like, you've done your fair share now and you're pretty, pretty good at it, I'd say. What are some like hacks in your training for high rocks that you could share with us, audience that you really think like oh yeah this is can't believe people more people aren't doing this

we've said this like a lot but going back to it number one is like doing classes or training with people because it's so hard to slack off and not actually push yourself so when you've got say like an amrap where you're doing wool balls and sled push into run it's so easy to just give yourself a five second rest and try and catch your breath because it is really hard and like i do when i'm training on my So I hate training on my own because it's so hard to physically. The heart rate's like 190. It's impossible to get yourself to go. Whereas when you're in a class or training with people,

you kind of just move with the collective and it happens. So definitely training with people if you can. And then the other thing would be it's so much more running than people think. So that's where you're going to really move the needle the most with your performance is the running. Because the better the runner you are, the runs become more of a recovery in the race whereas for some people it's like that's the hard part is the run so it's not getting too bogs down on

I'm going to do these specific high rocks workouts five times a week and I'm not really going to run I want to practice all the stations the running is the most important part they call it a runner's race yeah it really is because like the top guys like the runs are easy for them whereas I still find that when I'm doing it the runs are hard like I'm guessing myself out there

but yeah classes it's 100% the biggest thing to actually push yourself. It's so hard to push yourself on your own. Yeah, just to keep that sort of intensity, isn't it? Yeah. With like you obviously being a creator, how did you start that journey to being the fitness creator that you are now?

It's when I was at university, I was just filming my gym workouts basically and pulling them up. I find the creator side, I'm not, I don't think myself as a very good creator. Like I just love the gym and I love training. and the content kind of like comes on the side, but I'm not very good at being creative and doing the best content.

But I think it's kind of become like a habit for me. Like I just try and film pretty much all of my sessions now. I'm not as scared of filming in the gym as I used to be. Yeah. So I always kind of make something out of that. But it's definitely more that I just love training and it's more just documenting what I'm doing as opposed to having to think really outside the box.

Yeah. It's more like a, it's literally just fitness is my, niche it's not a bit of everything how do you balance like being a content creator and also kind of trying to be an athlete and focus on those girls yeah it's difficult as well because sometimes in the gym so with strength training it's quite easy to film because you're resting anyway but with my high rocks workouts well how when i was just saying you want to be going straight from exercise to exercise you don't really have time to be moving a tripod around so sometimes i'll go back and refilm afterwards. Then obviously that adds on more time. But it is difficult because it's

the balance of, okay, well, content creation is my job. So I needs to do that. But then also the fitness is kind of my job as well and I want to do well. So it's kind of 50-50. Sometimes I will take the hit on the training and I'll film a bit more if I know I need to. And then other times I'll prioritize the session and then film afterwards. But I think getting people to like sometimes I get a photographer that helps but that's obviously expensive. Do you feel like a pressure to perform either for socials or? No, I don't think so. Like it's more I want to perform for myself, definitely.

I mean, if I were to get injured and I completely couldn't train at all, I think that would be a different story. Because obviously where fitness is my niche, it's not so much about my lifestyle and get ready with me. It's very much fitness. I think if that was taken away from me, I would struggle. But for now, I think as well because I'm not

like I'm not a professional in anything it's more I just want to be the best I can in a few different disciplines it's not I have to be the best marathon runner or I have to have the best high rocks time whereas I think people that fall into one category definitely would feel that pressure a bit more I think yeah I think as well coming from

just like a straight like a high perch feet background it's not my following wasn't built on initially on performance goals so it's not having to keep up that appearance for my followers but I don't know but I think if I lost if I couldn't train

then it would be a different story what's your favourite thing or least favourite thing about the fitness space do you have any strong feelings towards it? I think I just really hate misinformation

and people certain creators that will just tell you any like to sell certain products I really dislike that because there's a lot of misinformation out

there but in general i'd say it's quite positive like i think anyone that's spreading factual inspirational fitness information i love um i'm trying to think there's any specific like trends that i don't like it's just all the supplement like the green supplements that this is what helped made me lose 20 kilos it's almost like um any other reason or any other way to achieve the body or the goals you want outside of hard work is when it gets a bit messy or maybe I don't know maybe it's just my few page

I'm like generally I don't see too much bad stuff but that could just be that my explore page is a good one just finally really about you being a coach and your new sort of endeavour with ladder and do you like to see yourself first and foremost as a coach or where does that kind of slot in

I'd say it's pretty 50 like I say myself as a creator coach and athlete pretty evenly. So I think we had loads of conversations about this. I had my own like coaching business before, which was difficult because it started to like with any business creep into, I wasn't necessarily coaching but managing people. And that was like a whole different set of skills which I didn't actually enjoy.

Whereas the move to ladder allows me to be a coach and use my fitness expertise. And that's it. I'm not having to worry about the growth of the business or customer support or all those other hats that come with being a business owner. So that's really exciting. And obviously the way that the app is set up, like I won't go into too much detail. But it allows me to coach in the exact way that I want to that people are getting so much benefit out of it. Like I'm recording literally for hours every single day, little voiceovers, as if I'm like a coach right next to you, which I could never do before with the software that I had. So it's just allowing

me to basically just be a coach and do what I'm good at, as opposed to. all the other business side of things. I don't know how you fit it all in. I'm forever and all of you. You've literally got the same, content creator, podcast. No, maybe, but I don't know. Yeah, maybe it helps you realize that you're also equally as insane. I'm looking at you, like, how are you doing it?

Just to finish, we like to do a little segment called Cool Down Quickfire. It's just where I ask you questions and you answer. If you want to expand on any of them, do you feel free to. But yeah, so first off is morning or evening workout. Morning. Favorite rest day activity. Ooh. Getting coffee or brunch.

Oh, yeah, love. Solo or group session? Group. I knew what that was going to be. What's your guilty pleasure workout song? Oh my gosh. Okay. I don't know if this is guilty pleasure, but when I'm training, like I don't listen to drum and bass ever normally, except when I'm training.

Like I need the beats. Like something like high time. And I'm not like a drum-based person normally, but that is my go-to. So, like, in my marathon in Lisbon, I'll have my drum-and-based playlist at the ready. Okay, we need to share a playlist because I'm exactly the same. Like, there's something about it that just helps you, like, when you're struggling, and you're in the depths, yeah, it's unreal. I would highly recommend.

Yeah, anyone listening, I select to Astra on one of our runs. And again, she wouldn't, I don't think she even had drum bass on her phone, but we were doing a fast interval and she did it. And she said it helps so much. I know. It's like a kind of like it unlocks this like aggressive. Yeah. It's like main character but like aggressive, which we love. Who's your dream workout partner?

Oh, this is so hard. Like someone to train with consistently or just once? Whatever is your question? It could be whatever. This is really hard. Because I'd want to do like a different session depending on what it is like with a different person. So like, oh God, I don't know. One person...

Just throw one out there. That I would train with consistently is Amy Kringle, because she obviously trains so hard. Like, I felt like she would push you. It'd be cool to do like a track session with like Hussein Bolt or something and just see how he actually is. Yeah. Love that.

What's one thing that you'll always carry in your gym bag? Okay, recently with the running, chafing bomb. And then in my actual pure gym bag, I mean, is headphones? Does that count or is that too boring? No, that absolutely counts. Chafing bomb headphones, lifting straps. The three things. What more could you go ask? Yeah.

Like, yeah, I feel like chafing, having, like, chafing on a run is a surefire way to just, like, ruin the whole entire workout. No, you can't think of any, like, it's bad. Current go-to-snack or hyperfixation meal? Hyperfixation meal, it's not really a meal, but, like, I've been having a lot of egg fried rice, like, every day because it's so easy. Yeah. snack. I've been really loving just like Greek yogurt bowls with a load of fruit. Like I'm not really a fan of just yogurt on its own. Like I need some sustenance in there. It's like loads of chopped up fruit. It's good. That makes me sound so healthy. That's just

my current. I feel like everyone, like especially the gym pros are like obsessed with the skier bowls. So don't worry. That's not too. Too out there. When do you feel your strongest? After a really hard running session. Like when you really like push yourself. to a dark place. Dark place. If you've done something that you don't think was possible, when you go into a session,

you're like, well, don't actually know if I can do this. And then lo and behold, you do it. Love that. What's a mantra you live by? I really like acts like the person you want to become. That's a really big one for me. And I kind of think it's just so easy to action it. Like if you're ever feeling unproductive or like you're procrastinating,

just think who is that ideal woman that I want to be? it really helps. The person I want to become wouldn't procrastinate. They would get to the gym and get this done anyway. They would sit down and do this work. So that one really does help me. Now, I actually love that. I actually love that so much because it's like, you know, even when you're struggling, it's kind of almost easier to think outside of yourself and think, well, what would they do? If I'm not doing it, what would they do? And then slowly over time you've become that person, don't you? This is the final question. Where can people find you? Anything you want to promote? So Instagram and TikTok, I think, are both.

Abby Denison Fit. And YouTube, I think, is the same, actually. So nice and easy. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for coming on. I love that conversation. I'm sure lots of people will take lots from that conversation and best of luck with all the things you're doing. I want to sign up for an ultra with you. Maybe. Maybe. He knows. 2026 could happen. Yeah. Amazing. All right, guys, thank you so much for listening if you got this far into the episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I certainly found that so interesting. I could have kept to talk forever but yeah if you haven't reviewed our podcast that would mean so much for us if you could and apart from that have a good week and I will see you in the next one bye you