Habits and Hustle - Episode 16: Dr. Chris Donaghue – Sex Positivity, Being an Advocate, and Being Real

Episode Date: June 18, 2019

Dr. Chris Donaghue is a licensed sex therapist, one of only 500 in the world. He joins us to discuss Sex Positivity! Dr. Donaghue identifies with gender fluidity and considers himself sexually fluid. Doesn’t pigeonhole his attraction to specific genders. Has dated men, women, transgender, and was even in a “throuple” (relationship involving three people). He gives us his take on dating apps like Hinge, Bumble, and Tinder. 📺 Youtube Link to This Episode Chris Donaghue’s Website Chris Donaghue’s Book: Rebel Love ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ Did you learn something from tuning in today? Please pay it forward and write us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts. 📧If you have feedback for the show, please email [e-mail]  📙Get yourself a copy of Jennifer Cohen’s newest book from Habit Nest, Badass Body Goals Journal. ℹ️Habits & Hustle Website 📚Habit Nest Website 📱Follow Jennifer – Instagram – Facebook – Twitter – Jennifer’s Website Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Our guest is Dr. Chris Donahue, who is a sex therapist and a sexologist. Don't worry, we clear up the difference in this episode of what that is. We talk everything, sex positivity, sex and relationships and everything in between. This episode is so informative and really opens up the dialogue surrounding sex in our very modern times. You definitely do not want to miss this one. Alright, hi, so I'm really excited about our next guest. This is Dr. Chris Donahue, who is a sex therapist, and a sexologist, which we'll get into in a second, who is also the new host of Love Line and also has a podcast with Amber Rose and I can go also also all day

because he's you are literally doing a million things. Yes, and my new book Rebel Lo. Oh yeah and of course, which you forgot to bring today. That's right that's story in my life. Yeah that's right. He's a great self-promote everybody. He has a new book called Rebel Lo. which is not here right now or we would try to show it or talk about it more but on that note. So maybe next time you come on you can mind the ball. I will bring a ton. All right, good.

Everywhere. And you also have three books. This is not just your first book. Two, two, my second. Oh, you're writing a third book. Yes. Got it. Okay.

So my first question is for people who are listening and for myself, what is the difference between the sex therapist and a sexologist? I kind of feel like that word, sexology or sex, that a sexologist is been used much more recently. Yeah, so sexology is thrown around a lot because it's basically someone who studies human sexuality philosophically socially and they'll do a lot of coaching but sex therapy you have to a licensed therapist. And then you go and get three to five years of additional training and you get certified. And sex therapist in the world, there's about 500 of us total in the world that are certified. And I'm one of those.

That's it. Yeah, because you have to be licensed and the track and all the training you have to get the supervision, the clinical hours, all the research, it's intensive. Wow. You're truly specializing in human sexual life. A lot of people think that it's intensive. Wow. It's really specializing in human sexual life. A lot of people think that it's just really basic. You know, sex is what you do with your partner in the bedroom and it's like, no, there are psychological components and social components and anatomical components and there's biology

to it. I mean, it's a true specialization. Oh, wow. I'm a science geek, so I love that. This is amazing. Okay, so then when someone calls themselves a sexologist, what does that mean? Is there a course in college? I've never seen that in a book when I went to college.

Yeah, it's now offered in some schools, but see it as someone who maybe is a philosophy major, where it's the study of the concepts and philosophies of, but it's not so much trained as a therapist or a psychologist. Right. I'm trained in both, so I really kind of pull all that together. Did a doctoral program and clinical psych, I did a doctoral program and human sexual outing and sociology, also licensed, and my sex therapy training, so I kind of pulled all in.

Oh my gosh, okay, so wow. Okay, there's like so much here, so you went to school like basically forever until like, and you're, I, yeah, I just finished years ago. Is that okay? That's, that's, I miss it, I want to go back. Because that's incredible.

So does that, does that mean like you're like amazing and bad? Is that really what it really means? I would hope so. I would hope at this point like if not What am I doing? Well, you know it's really funny I find like the people when you're like not good at something you become that person like a lot of times I like the people who are the most screwed up are like the best psychiatrist

Yeah, you know like the best trainer the people who have all these like issues with like body image It's in some way I love that, right? Because they understand the nuance, they understand some of the struggles. Right, right. But I like to say that I wish for myself, or hold myself accountable to the same thing I hold my patients accountable to, which is,

I catch things better with less severity and maybe sooner, but I'm still a person in how my own struggles with all of that. Right, right, right. I've done the work around my sexuality, which means, we're in a culture where people are holding back and not exploring because they're all of that. Right, right, right. But I've done the work around my sexuality, which means, living in culture, where people are holding back and not exploring because they're afraid of being slut-chamed, or it doesn't make them wife material,

or they won't be seen as desirable or respectful, and we're afraid of being seen as sex addicts, and homophobies in there for some heterogies, not being willing to ask what they want. And I've done that work. So when you date me, I'm very authentic, I'm very confident, I'm very open, I'll ask for what I want.

You can't shock me. Right. Well, you've probably heard it all and probably seen it all at this point. So what is the most, when someone comes, because you, like I said, besides all the other like extracurricular things you do for your career, you actually have your own practice, right? So what would be like a typical, I I mean there's no typical patient, right? But give me some ideas or some things that people would come to think of.

The number one thing in terms of couples is low sexual desire or no sex. So it's a couple coming up where one of them is sort of wanting sexuality or their board and the other one is sitting there like, I'm good. Right. I'm not that interested or I'm not that dynamic. So it's working with couples on trying to figure out if they want to stay together, how can we try to improve upon the boring sex that they're having?

Also, the number one thing though, if I translated what everyone comes in with, it's essentially, am I normal? Am I okay as I am? People come in not feeling okay based on what they're thinking, what they're doing, what they're attracted to, what they're roused by, because they do like couples and sex therapy

and general psychology. People just want to feel normal. People just want to feel okay. People just want to feel okay. Right. And you can tell them that because it's not all okay, I guess like you were saying, it's about like accepting who you are and how you are. But you're right. I think that a lot of times like, is it a myth?

Like some people have a higher libido, some have a lower libido. And what do you do when you're like a couple has that situation? Yeah. Well, it's all contextual. Right. Because you contextual. Because you could be the lower libido person with one partner, but then enter a new relationship and also under the higher desire one. Because they have such a role. It's bright, it's all relative to who you're with.

So remind people that, don't feel broken. It's in relationship to this person. You might also feel like the kinky's person in the world, because it's someone very vanilla, but then you date someone else, and it's reversed. It's reverse, so tell people, you're okay, you are. Because again, we always have to start with like reducing shame. That's a number one thing I try to make my message about is psychological health is rooted in

feeling okay about who you are. Right. And from that position, we can make all the changes we need. But making changes from a place of feeling battered shame doesn't really stick. Also, isn't it like, I hope my mother doesn't listen to this episode by the way, or my mother. But like, is this sometimes as simple as like what if you're just not attracted to that person as you are to other people and like what happens in a situation when, because I think sex is a really big part and obviously of a relationship for the intimacy. But thank you for saying that because there's not a lot of people that really believe that.

Some people think sex is just this side add-on, not that important thing and you shouldn't be part and obviously have a relationship for the intimacy. But thank you for saying that, because there's not a lot of people that really believe that. Some people think sex is just this side add-on, not that important thing, and you shouldn't be focusing so much on that, and it's really about family and all that. And it's like, well, no, that's a beautiful resource for two people to have access to, to stay close and feel close. Right. And live in a hyper-sexualized culture, so it's really important to live with all social media and everything else.

So how do you, how do you sensitize yourself from that? Like, and I think it's unbelievably, it's kind of like in a way, not ignorant, but kind of that if you don't have that sexual component, you've technically like lose a lot of like closeness and relationship. But not everyone agrees with what you just said. And I love that you're saying that because you are, but some people think it's just not an important level of intimacy or compatibility. Do they convince themselves of that? I think your brain is very powerful, right? You can convince yourself or convince yourself of something one way or another, just by saying it and repeating

it over and over in your brain. Your body won't always buy in and so you'd be going against your body, but for the couples in my practice, they have that other person who's like you might have bought into that I haven't and so I'm gonna ask for more and that's why we're in sex therapy and so right It's a funky moment because sometimes it's one of them having to admit I'm not attracted to sexually and I never was but I find you attractive Right, and I love you and I love what we've built, but yeah, it was never there. Dr. Chris help us. I think that what you just said is the most, I think very, very common. Just with married people, with kids.

And believe me, I know I'm married with kids and I'm, please, this is not about my situation. But I feel like I'm going to be having a personal therapy session with you on this thing. But that's whatever. But how do you go past that? Like, that's exactly, if you're, if you've never been attracted to them sexually and you're not, you can't fake it, right? So like, does that mean the relationship is then like virtually over? Because even with you being a therapist, no matter how much you say to me, you know, like

do this, act like this, you can't, you can't like, like your, your, your physiology can't just, like, this act like this. You can't like Physiology can't just like make yourself like that and I don't want you to and people will try to force their body and Physiology to get a roused and show up to something that I turned on by and that's Disembodiment that's body negativity that sex negative like no don't do that So what I really try to do is I'll tell you what I do on the front end in the back and on front end I try to remind people that are singular dating, please have sex sooner than later. Please don't think that because I'm attracted to you or I like you and we get along that sex is just going to work itself out because it doesn't.

It's its own level of compatibility. You have to assess it before you get truly attached or moving together or whatever it is. That's a good piece of advice. Oh, I tell people, please, people think like we need to delay sex and I'm like you're delaying a Huge piece of learning about yourself the other person because through sex we learn about our body shame We learn about how much intimacy we want or can tolerate Through sex we learn about communication and boundaries. We learn so much more about each other than we would over coffee

Right absolutely. I learned about your favorite TV show, Big Deal. You like Game of Thrones, cool. Exactly. But it's in sex, where I can really figure all that out. And it's important, because like you said, you want access to that if you're going to be in a long-term and agonist relationship, the culture we live in, your sexuality has to go somewhere. So if you end up in my office though, and you never had that chemistry, because you thought somehow it'd work itself out magically, which is this bizarre cultural myth, or the other

stuff is more important. That's right. And for some people it is more important and they don't come in my office because it's enough of importance where they're like, it's cool that sex sucks. But for ones that don't, the work is twofold. One, trying to make it a little better,

because like you said, you can't fake chemistry. Or, sadly, the work is mourning the loss of the sex life you thought you would have that you'll never have. So how do you mourn that loss? Long therapy, it's just it's a grief and loss work like you would if you lost a parent or a pet or a loved one it's losing your sex life that in order to be with this person I have to accept that I'm never gonna have the sexuality I wanted to have or dreamed of having and the options are also be open having an open relationship. I was gonna say, bring the third.

Isn't it okay to like exactly? So what I was going to ask you is, it is very possible and happens all the time that you can be super sexually combative a little one person, but like you have nothing else in common. And like the relationship other than that piece is just not there. And then you can find someone that you get along with really well. Like you're a great friend, but like there's no sexual attraction. So then like as a life partner, what do you do? Do you just become, do you just kind of have someone who's your great friend? And then just kind of like you said, mourn the fact that you don't have sex anymore, or do you just kind of like, is it, I think people feel really shameful if they like go find

like a sexual partner on the side. But if that's because society says that that's not right. If you're married and do this, you should have all of that with one person. Which is a really high bar. Exactly. You should find this one person and we should do everything. Psychologically in terms of how to be emotionally, socially, sexually, it's a big ask. And the fact, once it has found that, like God bless,

but most of us won't, and we'll have some kind of imbalance in one of those areas. Absolutely. But the imbalances have to be meaningful based on what does feel connected, so we're willing to hang in there. But the people in my office, it doesn't. Where they're like, I love you and I love our family,

but like what's missing is important. Because it's not even just sex, it's a fiction, it's sensuality that's not really compatible over there. So it's all, it's not, I know, I'm not saying just, I'm not just saying intercourse. I'm saying like the whole, I guess the whole element of it, like the touching, the affection,

whatever, like the dissexual chemistry, or physical chemistry, you know. It's massive. It's over important, because think about it. One of the most beautiful things we have with people are dating is that after a long rough day, we can cuddle with them. We can hold their hand.

We have someone looking in our eyes that's been thinking about us all day long. Like that's under the umbrella of sexuality. That's what tied in there. And that's stunning. We need that psychologically. I agree. So what do you see mostly?

Like are you trying to get people to get over the shame of thinking outside the box? Like you said, I'm like, okay, if that's not a component in your relationship, it's okay to look outward and to kind of fill that gap. Like is that what you kind of tell people to do a lot of time? It's quite radical. I mean, my job is to initiate a conversation about what all the options are and all the options scare people. Because a lot of companies don't want to be told, you're not meant to be monogamous. Let's start there.

They're like, what? And I'm like, yeah, we have to own that. We're adults in this room. Like, let's start there. That doesn't mean you're going to go into nominogamy. But we're going to talk about the fact that that's an option. Or, morning, the loss of what you had. Or, trying to tweak what you have.

I also send people to workshops, so they can learn new techniques. Because sometimes it's just technique where they haven't had a lot of sex. It's the other thing. Have a lot of sex so that when you are in a monogamous relationship you've learned skills. Sex is a level of development that doesn't just arise on its own. That's a good point. You don't talk about sexual development though. Go have sex. Why are you single? It's so true. It's like anything else. They say it to be really to perfect anything and you need 10 thousand

Why do we leave sets out of that one thing? I don't know and it's my job to tell them It's a fundamental part of your life. Yes And people like because like I get I keep on saying this but like I think there's a lot of like shame and you feel like Guilty and bad and there's a lot of like emotional like screw-upness and like psychological issues with it You know why rate my books because there's very few books written from my field that are truly sex positive, that are talking about things in this way. A lot of them regurgitate the same issues, and that's why I've been issue with a lot of these like dating coaches that aren't...

Look at dating coaches, that's like nonsense. They probably can't find a date- That's my issue. That's my issue. Is a lot of them don't have enough training and so they'll... I did an episode of the doctors, and I won't say with who, but there's a dating coach there, and he kept saying this really sex-negative sexist stuff, and he's basically saying to the audience,

and they were nodding with him, and I was horrified, you know, a woman should delay having sex or she shows she's not wife material, and I thought, what a disempowered thing you're saying to all the females in our culture and in the audience, that if they have sex too soon, they're not wife material, like really, if they're sexually empowered and they feel okay about that,

and they're trying to get to know their bodies and their partner's body, that they're not wife material. Like really, if they're sexually empowered and they feel okay about that, and they're trying to get to know their bodies and their partner's body, that they're not wife material, and everyone in the audience is nodding along, that is so sexist, it's not 1970. But that's I think, I think with so many things, like you said, we're so like, we're, it's a very sexualized society.

However, there's such traditions till the baseline, I guess the bones of it are still very traditional. Or people still feel badly or guilty when they think outside that box or when they think of options or they want a girl, as always, you said slut-shamed if they want to do that as opposed to like thinking the opposite, which is they're taking the initiative, taking the power, taking this.

There's such a double standard between men and women. And it's changing a little bit, but it's slow moving. It's slow moving. It's very slow moving. Some of the research is finally showing that, and this isn't, now I want to walk you through this, because when I said this somewhere else, people went all in, but women are now taking over as the gender that's cheating more. Now, cheating is a horrible thing to do.

Of all the ways to manage whatever's going on that you're bored, you want to leave the relationship, you want to different kind of sex, whatever it is. That's the worst way to go about doing it. Like, speak to your partner first. Find other solutions. But what I do like about it is to sign that women are more sexually empowered, more willing to assert their sexuality, more willing to own that. We have a sex drive. We used to tell to own that. We have a sex drive.

We said to tell women that they don't have a sex drive, that it's more receptive, that a man has to initiate it for them. And I'm working with these with my practice that are like, I want to have sex. I want someone to smack my ass and tell me I'm hot. You know what I mean? Or whatever it is. I work with women and it breaks my heart that I've been in a relationship with a man for 10 years and they still haven't discussed with their partner the positions they like

in which they orgasm. Because they're afraid to express their sexuality. Right, they're like in Tim again. Really? That's heartbreaking. If you love the Habits and Hustle Podcasts and are looking to add more podcasts to your weekly routine, I have the podcast for you. I know you're going to love the millionaire university podcast because they dive deep into

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into a reality by listening to the millionaire university podcast New episodes drop every Monday and Thursday So find the millionaire university on Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts Would you say that So I why kids so you think why do you think that women are more the dominant in terms of the cheating right now? You say because they're now getting their feeling more of the sexual empowerment. They're working more and a lot of women are meeting these partners at work. We have technology and they're feeling comfortable starting themselves.

And would you say like for like men, okay, for both, I want your opinion for men and women. What's the number one thing that men are is men are all visual right or Or the women like was a one thing women are most attracted to the one that men are most I would see the one part And then one quality. I would say we can't speak in those terms anymore. I'm thankful for that Okay, it's so it's broadening and people are starting to step outside of these old school traditional like concepts and ideas to step outside of these old school traditional concepts and ideas. So I don't, I couldn't say because what I'm happy to now speak on is that it's kind of different for everybody and I like that because a lot of people feel shamed if they're not the standard male because a lot of guys will hear that.

Men are traditionally dot dot dot and so if I'm not focused on that, aroused by that or into that then there's something wrong with me. So I try to just kind of avoid those concepts. Okay, so you don't like... It's more about authenticity. Right, so you don't like putting anybody in boxes. Correct. So you won't be able to say, oh for women,

they like, because I would say, I like guys who are super confident. Right. Or who have like, who like feel comfortable on their own skin. I don't think that would be necessarily even like a putting it in a box. I would think most people would like that.

Yeah, but I work with some people that you'd like the more shy quiet. But you could still be shy, I think you could be super shy and quiet, but still have like a sense of like comfortable in your skin. 100%. Because it's about intimacy. And when a lot of us want to feel connected to

when we're with someone, and so a lot of us prefer people that occupy space, have a presence, vocalize something. It's really hard to be with people that are really introspective and internalized. Really? Do you think opposites attract or that just a miss? Um, I think it's a myth, and I don't know that I really believe in opposites.

A lot of the people I work with, it's funny. The very thing that they fell in love with their partner about also is the same thing that they hate about their partner. Yeah, it's always, of course. It's like you can't have one without the other. Absolutely, but I feel this is like, you're this is all based in psychology, like you said.

This is like with everything in life, I feel. Like you just said, everything, all the things that you like about the person ends up being the things you hate about them. 20%. It's just, but why is that? I think because it's like, but why is that? I think because it's like, I think about people in my life.

So I like to date people that are very dynamic and a little wild and a little bit of a rule breaker. And that's really stunning to me. That's really inspiring. That's intriguing. But then I get overwhelmed by it. Right? Well, can't you just be consistent? Can't you just stabilize? Can't you just stabilize? But then I get overwhelmed by it. Right? Right?

Can't you just be consistent? Yeah. Can't you just stabilize? Yeah. It's just human nature. You know, we like the shiny object. That's so true. So then we don't want to stick around and do the work that's required to like be around that or maintain that.

We want it easy. It's not relationship-sign. So you like that? So does that, even if you know, so you being a professional in this area, I do know better and you know how that is being a professional in this area, and you know better, and you know how that is, do you still tend to date that, so go, not date, just go after that, because you're single. Right, so do you still have health?

So that's a side of health. I've had people say, oh, well, you're single and you work in a relational field. That can't make sense. I'm like, it's a healthy sign that I've left the relationships I've left. It's a healthy sign that, and I'm always in multiple relationships. Like, I'm single in that I'm not in a committed monogamous relationship, but I'm not single in that I am talking to people. I am going on dates.

I do a relationality of all different kinds in my life. So you were saying earlier, I was asking you a lot of this thing. Like, what are you? Are you heterosexual? What are you said that you're sexually fluid? Yes. So can you explain? Yeah.

Because I've been to so many terminologies that like I like so like farmished. I'm so I'm so confused by all the different things. So what does that mean? You'll every week there's like five new ones. I feel bad. Are you gay? Is it gay okay still? Yeah, yeah, you can still sling that around. I can still sling the word gay around. Okay, so what's not what's not like politically PC now? Don't call someone a transvestite or a cross-dresser. That's not good. Well, all word is just transgender. OK.

What was the other one I heard the other day and I thought, yeah, don't say that anymore. So why do you have, so you're just saying to me, this is an interesting thing. You're saying about kind of getting away from societal, what society says is right, wrong, whatever. But then you're saying that this is not right, this is not like, for people who are like,

kind of like an ignoramus like me for this in this area, like then like I'm being, you know, shun because I'm not using the right terminology. You're, I would say this, it's all in how you approach, like you're approaching it with compassion and care. And curiosity. And so that's okay. And you're allowed to, you're not supposed to enter subcultures,

understanding all their dynamics. And even though I'm a part of a lot of them, I still don't understand them all. And I'm still a guest in some of them. Really? And so as long as the general vibe is, as long as you're curious and you're asking because you want to respect them.

Right, that's exactly. That's okay. It's the people that push back and say things like, I don't want to learn your pronouns. Right. I want to learn them, exactly. I's okay. It's the people that push back and say things like, I don't wanna learn your pronouns. Right, I wanna learn them, exactly. I don't wanna be offended. It's important for people that have anyone already status to feel like they're represented,

and that's why some of these labels are meaningful. They can build community, they feel like they're legitimized, they feel they exist, it garners some respect. Okay, so then go on. Oh, so it's actually fluid. It's a trend trend, you said for a good reason. Trends gender, be the word. I would give people to use for anyone that's outside of like The standard male female expression of gender, but isn't there two things?

I think like when you get the surgery. What is that called? We still kind of just use the word trans whether you're have had Reassignment or affirmative therapy or not. we still just kind of go with trends. Okay, and then why is it offensive to call someone a cross-dresser if that's what they're... Only because that traditionally was a pejorative, and that traditionally was based in heterosexual identified men that like to wear women's clothing for sexual purposes. Gotcha. So to call someone who is living in the world, feeling as though the gender they were assigned to birth isn't really who they are and to call them a cross-dresser. Gotcha. Okay.

So just put some in that box with that, you know. I understand that. Okay, so what's gender fluid? Is that the other one? Gender fluid one too. Okay, what's this one? So fluid usually just implies not living consistently with one identity, but kind of moving around. So gender fluidity would be someone who maybe one day feels more comfortable with a male presentation but then the next day more of a female presentation, identify sexually fluid which isn't tied to that. Okay, what sexually fluid then? Oh my god, I should get a note pad here. I know, I know. It's a lot. For me it's important just because the work I do I don't want any

aspect of my sexuality denied or not recognized but, but I was raised in a heterosexual culture and I dated women and had sex with women and it made a lot of sense to me. And then I had an experience where I had this girlfriend and she was like, make out with my best friend who was a guy. And I was like, okay. And it just started to create this like, acknowledgement of expansiveness. But in that at that time, I was led to believe that if you were interested in men, well, then you're gay.

So I started moving towards that community. And what's funny is the heterocommunity rarely says, hey, if you thought about being with the dude and the gay community never says, hey, when's that time with the girl? Is that still part of your... Yeah. So I moved into the gay world and I was like, I guess I'm gay because I didn't have any other options. And then I started running with a more advanced crowd that was like, I guess I'm gay, because I didn't have any other options. And then I started running with a more advanced crowd.

That was like, you're allowed to kind of like everyone. And then I started also recognized I had an interest and I dated someone who's trans. And so I was like, okay, well that's interesting. So did the trans person have surgery or not surgery? That's what I want to know. I dated a trans man who had not had any kind of gender affirming surgery of any kind. A trans man?

He's a man or a woman though. He was someone who was born, assigned the gender of female, and then now identifies his male. Okay, but I'm seeing that. Oh my God. Does he have that? So he does not have a penis or he does have a penis? He has a vagina

Okay, so then okay, and then how is he a guy then? Because gender gender is something we die we diagnose ourselves with you know gender Is it like a can this is the part? So confused? So we'll usually look at it as sex sex is traditionally tied to your anatomy So your sex is based traditionally on what your anatomy looks like. So if you have vagina, your sex would be female, if you have a penis or a sex be male. But gender is how we kind of present ourselves to the world. God, okay.

So gender is what I'm looking at. Okay, so how does he look like a man if he... Because he looks like a man, he presences a man, dresses like a man, embodies masculinity. Jim a picture? I don't. I love this. Okay, this is so fascinating and interesting. The world is colorful.

It is. So then what are you now? Now gender fluid, so then that was now, you've been with a transgender male, female, now what is your preference? I'm open. I'm open. And in case so right now making me swerve. I know, sorry, it's going to get worse on it. Are you dating anyone right now though?

Yes. Are they men? They men? I mean what's really what's really wild is up until a month ago I was dating a male couple so I was dating two people that were in a relationship ago I was dating a male couple. So I was dating two people that were in a relationship and I was like a third. So it's technically what you call a thrupple. Really? Oh my god this is amazing. I mean it's really funny, is it just, it sounds good. Is that a name? A thrupple? Yeah, yeah, three people together in a relationship. And it was really interesting when we'd purposefully walk down the street holding hands together.

People would be doing like triple takes, like three people in a row holding hands. No way, seriously. This is happening. how long was that going on couple months you know it's up north though I live down here and I work a lot I work like 14 hour days so we haven't even got into any of your other work because you're so fascinating yeah that was hard to pull off so you know but again like I think I assume you're much like me in that and you might not relate to this but I feel this is still what you very much do, where our work and our lives are very much the same. And so you live your work, meaning like-

Absolutely true, what that was. So I'm always living my work. So I'm always doing my work in my internal work, which is tied to my work out in the world. So even though I'm not the type of person that needs to flaunt, I'm dating two people. I'm like, well, I'm going to, because that's me as an activist showing the

world that this is healthy. And so I'll publicly talk about that to publicly normalize that. One of those people, like, you don't need to be so open about, but I'm like, but I do. Yeah. I need to promote what I'm promoting and I need to live it. And so watch me live it. You're so likable. Thank you. Like in any, in any gender sex, whatever. Thank you. So you really are. Thank you. You're welcome.

So then let me ask you. So then is bis now the bisexual word been now replaced with the word fluid? The problem is bisexual means male and female. I like males and females. The way that sexually fluid exists is people that also might like people that are neither neither of that. So there's people that don't necessarily identify as male or female necessarily and

there's people that you know are maybe non-gender conforming and so it's just a wider net. I know it's very like specific but. So now that you have such experience, such vast experience with so many different genders, people, whatever. What do you prefer the most? Do you like female sex, male sex? Oh, that's a good one. Do you want me to really blow your mind? Yes, blow it.

Okay. I want you to. So, we're now talking also about romantic versus sexual. So there's a romantic orientation versus a sexual orientation. So what you might be sexually attracted to doesn't mean that's what you want romantic relations with. Right, that's where I said you were. So it separated that a little bit. Right.

So I tend to be very like sexually fluid, pansexual, where I've sex with all gender expressions, but in my romantic dating life, I tend to see more towards dating men. In romantic dating life. But in the sexual, casual dating, all genders. All genders. Now you also just said pansexual. What's pansexual? I've heard it before.

Yeah, it basically just kind of means all. So it's basically a sexual fluid, term, bisexual fluid. You can just go with that, where it's just kind of everything. Well bisexual just means men in female. Pansexual fluid means, and everything inside and outside of that, that doesn't have a label. So it does sound to me, just from like everything you said to me, that you do skew more male.

Like you, in everything, you're more attracted to the male thing than the female. Like so, okay, so that's, but like you're open to everything, but you're more, so now like just to get into like now that you do your love line, should I write? Nightly radio show, love line. Love line. Is it people just calling in with any question?

Like a Dr. Ruth? Like that? Kids don't like the phones these days, so what do you do? We do a lot of, we have a segment called, twice, so it's two hours show each hour. We have sliding to the DMs, so people will more frequently send their questions through DMs on the love line page. Really?

Yeah, which is difficult because I'm reading their question, I'm not able to engage them. Sometimes they call in, but it's a lot more DMs, people don't pick up the phone. Right, that's our new, that's a new norm right now. And people who used to podcast, where you can't call in. Right. So my show is live radio show in 28 cities or in every city across country, but it's also podcasted.

So I think people still think in terms of podcasts where a lot of our listeners will stream it live, because you can stream it live or listen on the radio, but still think in terms of podcasting. And so. That's so interesting. And then with your podcast. So with your podcast, again, would you guys talk

and you would ambrose? Talk about everything. Everything, right? That's more geared towards our personal lives. Somehow we talk about, we get a lot of colors on that show. Right. We, we, It's so fascinating. So I was working I was doing co-hosting the doctor's daytime show. That production company was doing

the Amber Rose show on VH1 and they're like let's do a chemistry test because we might want you to do a segment and I was like oh gosh I'm good. I'm like apples and oranges. Yeah. I didn't know her well enough and I thought there is no compatibility there. 20 seconds in. What's your background? I don't know her well enough and I thought there is no compatibility there 22nds in back room, because I don't know much on your west with her so she yeah She did a Kanye West and was califa and so she built her name that way But she's definitely become a force in feminism current fourth-way feminism where it's sex positive body positive every year She does the slut walk which is sponsored by like Reebok and Pepsi and it's to raise money for sexual assault victims It's downtown. I speak of that every year. We have 20,000 people that come out to

Persian Square. So she's really working her ass off. So we hit it off where we kept looking at each other and I was like, oh my God. She's like, yeah dude, and we're like fist bumping and she's like, and she was like, you got to be on my show. And so we did the show and we became besties. And then we started doing work together with the slut walk and we got the podcast and just kind of took the world by storm. So your podcast you just kind of talk about your life and her life? Pretty much. We'll talk about topics a little bit but we just, it's like two friends sitting in the laugh and talking about our sex lives or dating lives. So like I had to get

comfortable quick really putting my truth out. They were clients or listening to my podcast and they're like hearing about a little job I got the week before. I was just gonna ask you about that. But here's my activism. Okay. I honestly do believe and we frame it under this concept called respectability politics, where we sadly believe that in order to be seen as respectable and competent that you have to be a certain way and that's why I show my tattoos.

I'll lecture at a top university, UCLA, USC or or whatever it is, and I'll show my tattoos. As a way to remind everyone, I can have tattoos and be a doctor and be taken very seriously and my work is well respected. I can talk about my sex life, and there should be no shame in acknowledging I have a sex life and talking about, and still go to the office and have a successful practice and publish books. You have to allow people to be all of those things, so I try to embody that. As opposed to, you're still right, because people are always like, if you're doing doing this you have to wear a suit. You've got to be able to play a part.

And I played that in the beginning. So, we're long-seed shirts in my office. I was on the doctors wearing long-seed shirts. And luckily my mentor on the producer on the show one day said, wear a short-seed shirt and I said, all the other doctors are in white lab coats. And I'm going to sit there like this. I'm going to be a joke. And he's like, no, go out there and be real. And I was like, damn, and I did. And it worked. And people in the audience would's like, no, go out there and be real. And I was like, damn, and I did, and it worked.

And people in the audience would be like, we love you, Dr. Chris, we love your tattoos. You normalize my childhood, homeless tattoos. I always wanted one, but as a doctor, I think I could. Or people write into me saying, you let me know that as a single doctor, I can be on a dating app,

and a client or a patient can see me on the app, and I can be like, yeah, I'm dating too. Right, exactly. You're just being real. And I feel like a lot of people prefer it and they appreciate it. But then why again is there such a stigma that's still thing, but you have to look at certain parts and be a certain way.

Like, you say, like, you think it's happening slowly the way it's becoming a less and less of a situation. But it's still not there yet. That's why people like me and you have to keep showing off authentically. We're like, you're not wearing a ball gown today because you think at the present moment. Or what are your versions of that? Yeah, exactly. But it's important for people in, I am where those people were, I hold people with

larger platforms accountable to using that towards something transformative and positive. Right. And so I just keep asking everyone to kind of be an activist in their own way and keep normalizing diversity and whatnot. Yeah, you just keep on like pressing it. Oh, yes over and over. That's all I do. My whole social media is curated to try to normalize diversity to try to hold space for people of minority identity and just keep lifting everyone up on my shoulders. You're very different than the doctor Drew doing that love line. Yeah, I mean, that's a thing like God bless them But at his he did it in a very different time and I hear some of the old shows and I'm like like

Shemi I wouldn't have said that really my show's way more sex-posome by positive I don't think everything is the result of a trauma and you better go get therapy because your husband wears your underwear like support him Right, tell me I'm gonna talk about what it on buy some for him it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. Tell me. Tell me don't be so shy. I'll now your big shy You're telling about like how you're like you know screwing around three minutes at the same time Also the love line legacy was has been on for 25 years and I'm and I'm blessed to take it forward And I'm blessed to be the one who's taking it where the fuck it needs to go Because people respect that and people need access to experts that are really giving them healing information and that show traditionally didn't do that We've had comedians that were just mocking things got less out of Kurola Right, right, but there's people like Emily Morris and Dr. Drew where that was their vehicle. They're clean the fame and so

It's been it's it's progressing moving forward It's really hard to see something you were part of move forward without you at times But isn't doctor Drew an addiction specialist? Yes. Not a sex therapist, right? So, why was he the love link? I don't even understand how it was like love line just so happened to be that way.

You're asking the guy who was built entire career on training, getting certified in the field of sexuality and relationality. And so it is frustrating to me to see people swooping into the field and making a mess because they don't have their training clinical experience or the know-how. And so there's a lot of people in the sex and therapy angle,

whether they're a coach, a life coach, or a psychiatrist, and they don't have the training. And so they do damage. And they end up in my office and I have to clean it up. Wow, so you don't believe then in sexual addiction? Absolutely not. You think it's just a silly terminology? Again, it's used by people that aren't trained in the field.

All the national organizations have rejected it. The Psychological Association, Psychiatric Association, the body that certifies sex therapists. On the clinical director of education for the sexual health alliance, I travel the country training doctors, nurses, and MDs in sex therapy. I saw them. I'm not sure.

I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure, I can't stop. But drugs now, call they will. They'll be high and drunk at the supermarket and they're kids of school because they can't. So we have to talk about problematic sexuality as though it's problematic. Maybe it feels difficult, but we can stop. It's just hard for us. And a lot of times it's also people not understanding that they have a higher sex drive or that they're kinky.

And so a lot of the things that get called a sex addiction are just higher sex drive people. People that are doing something kinky, a partner shaming them because the wife is upset that a husband prefers porn to the sex that they're with. But isn't that something when kais are all into porn? There's some people who are so into porn that it does

interfere with their life, that they're watching porn all day. And that's problematic. And that be considered a sex decision, no more in addiction. I wouldn't use more in addiction as much as I would just say. If your husband is watching football for six hours on a Sunday, drinking beer, and not helping clean the house or give you attention, even call him an addict,

you just say it's kind of jerky, redirect your priorities. I'd say the same thing. It's interesting. And why is there sex addicts and otomists? Or is it like, you know, like there's it's like a web thing, you have the homeless and otomists, you have NA, you know, like there's, like, a thing, you have alcoholist anonymous, you have NA, you know, narcotics. People misunderstood and thought that anything

that looks compulsive or problematic, you could use the same drug and alcohol 12-step model on it and you can't. Because if someone, you don't need drugs and alcohol in your life to have amazing, long love for life. Sex you do, you can't call it bad and spend your life avoiding it becoming sexually anorexic. You can't call it bad and spend your life avoiding it becoming sexually anorexic. You have to find a way to encounter sexual outings. Remember sexual

outings, sexual outings like how close we're sitting, sexual outings eye contact for making with each other, sexual outings what I'm wearing today. Like think about that. Sexual outings is always operating on us. We can't be addicted to something that's always operating on us. That will food addiction. You have to eat every day. You do. I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I don't believe in food addiction But I have a food addiction. You have to eat every day. You do. I don't believe in food addiction. I believe in food compulsivity. I believe in people using it as a maldaft of coping mechanism.

But I don't believe in it as an addiction because in natural healthy process, we just can't use that model. So it's not the reason why I don't like the terms is because it's the treatment model when you're using addictive model. That's probably what I got. So it's more of a, well, isn't like a compulsive synonym for addiction? No, and people think it is, right? Yeah.

Recompulsivity means that I'm in the use of this said thing, food or sex, I'm feeling out of control when I'm engaging it, but that doesn't mean you're addicted to it. Because addiction models one of a neurological thing and we need to remove it for my lives, and the treatment is about keeping distance from it, and with sex and food you just can't. See, I had a friend a few years back who had to, who got a divorce because her husband was a sex addict, or what they called a sex addict, because he was like, screwing around with like all these girls.

No, that's called. No, it's called. He's a jerk. That's good to say. Don't let him that's called? No, it's called, he's a jerk. That's good to say. Don't let him off the hook with that label. Like, that's being a jerk. And then he wants that. All cheaters are addicts.

No, they're jerks. Right, that's so true because then he's such a... He's such a... And like a sex addict. Here's the thing. If he was addicted, he, like if we were really food addicts, I would be grabbing food out of people's hands as I'm walking down the street

because I'm addicted and can't stop. I'd be jerking people off as I'm walking through the mall. But if I can plan to cheat, if I can wait until my wife is out of town, get to the hotel, pay and set it up. That's not an addicted. Right, so that's more like calculated. A jerk. Tiger Woods was a jerk.

That's so funny. Harvey Weinstein is a sexist, power-hungry, predator jerk. But he's not an addict. Okay, but how about food people? He chose specific people at specific times when no one was around to do those things. 100%. Okay, and I guess with food though, because I would say, I'm just putting sex and food together because of the addiction slash, which I don't think is a, because you have to eat

every day, you've got to have sex, you know, at least once a month, I guess, you don't have to, but, you know, it's a slash, because you have to eat every day, you have to have sex at least once a month, I guess. You don't have to, but it's like a whatever. The point is, with food though, sometimes I'm not hungry, for example, but the food's right there, and I'm like, oh my god, I need to eat that right now, and I will not be able to stop thinking about it and eat that entire piece of it. It's a struggle with impulsivity, it's a struggle with appetite of drives that we have. So it's more like impulse. Yeah, I would go more that model.

And the work would be around learning impulse control, boundaries, checking it yourself. Like what am I trying to use this food or sex to solve? Some people confuse loneliness with hornyness. You're not horny, you're lonely, go call a friend, go on a date, you're not hungry, you're sad or depressed. Is there a way to really dismantle work on that that because the food won't do that for you. And so that's the perspective I do.

That's a good one too. Loneliness versus horning is that so true. 100%. I bet you people confuse those to all the time. All the time. All the time. Sex is only job, the only job of sex is pleasure, fun, intimacy, connection. It's not supposed to meet a lot of other needs that we put upon it.

So like, so let's just talk about sex with success in life. It's important to have, a lot of time people are trying to get to a certain place, they eliminate sex. When boxers or people who are trying to get to the next place, they have to shut out women or sex or relationships. Good luck with your dating't you have eyeballs right but what happens is they become very tunnel vision and focused and They very much myopic in like climbing ladders like okay, I can't deal with women. It's gonna distract me So like what do you think about all of that stuff? I think it's ridiculous And I think it's a mess. I think it's ridiculous because you literally can't remove sexuality I will always be because I've eyes will be oriented towards attractive things in the world.

And when I see it in front of me, which I can't avoid seeing on a billboard or at the gym in front of me or in a magazine, I'm going to get in a rousal. I'm going to get into a rousal state. You have to learn how to carry that with us. We have to learn how to allow that. We have to learn how to let that lib penal energy drive us and push us forward versus shaming and pushing it away. Because what it really is is just energy, creative energy, horniness, it's all just a build up of energy. And we can choose what we do with that. Sex offenders and people like Harvey Weinstein, they haven't been trained that just because your

rouse doesn't mean you have to do something about it, carry it with you all day. Right. That's true. And so to remind people, it's not something to be afraid of or devoid. It's something you can't avoid. Don't be afraid of it. Learn to work with it. Learn to see the beauty in it. Well, I think people feel that they get like, then it comes with a whole other laundry list of shit. Like it comes with attachment. It comes with then like emotional, you know.

Yeah, that's right. Learn how to manage that. My God, you can't have a successful life without relational, you're sexual out in it. It's coping mechanisms all the way, right? But when people are trying to be successful, when they're at the, you know, they're trying to be successful or they,

or people who be successful, when they're at the you know, they're trying to be successful or they or people who are successful they feel like sex can be It can deter it further like you know what I'd say to those people I'd say what I'm learning is that for you historically dating relationships and sex you've chosen to have with the wrong people people that work in flexual or made it messy Choose healthier people because the people I didn't have sex with they only enhance my life They make it better. I always want it there. They push me forward. They're support.

When I think of them, I feel love and care. I don't feel stress or neediness. It shouldn't be depleting. So if relationships and sex feel to you like something depleting or anxious, you're having sex with the wrong people and you need a better experience of what's available because relationships should push us forward.

So what do you think of all these apps now and like how do people find this because especially in LA right or metropolitan like LA in New York? I'm on all the apps. You're in all the apps. Absolutely. Which ones are you on? All of them. Are you on Grindr? Does that still exist? That thing I'm always still going strong. I'm on Hinge. I'm on Bumble and I'm on Tinder. I work 14-hour days. I just worked too much straight with no weekends off traveling for my book and lecture tour and my practice

and my radio show. It's the only way I've access to other single people that in theory want to date. I manage it appropriately where I make my needs known. I'm not looking to hook up. There's nothing wrong with that. I went through hook up culture. I'm very much in a relational stage where I want romance

and other things. I'm cautious. I get them on the phone right away, I get them offline right away. I mean, as soon as possible, I don't build relationships online only for weeks. I get them on the phone. I assesses if they're really serious. But I find these apps a lot of times because of volume. You can find some really great and then because you know it's just one swipe away, you don't take anyone seriously. Like I think it's- Because we're about talking to 45 other people to see how to do it.

Absolutely, like it's become the, I think, not like I'm obviously not on these ads, but like it's a demise of our culture because you don't give anyone a real shot anymore because you always think what's better, you know. That's right. Over there. The tyranny of too many options.

Yeah. That's why for me, I try to make it work for me. And if I match match with someone we'll talk a little bit and I'll say here's my number text me And if that's too quick or too fast-feeding, you're not really interested in what I'm looking for right because the way I Presumably be like oh my god right on let's do that exactly Exactly and then I'll get them on the phone so I can hear voice and talk to you and I'll be like what are you doing tomorrow night? Is that too soon for you if so you're not the right one for me because I'm really motivated and so you sit them You basically we them up really fast But also you're probably like a hot commodity in your in your community, right?

Like you're so cute and you're likable and you're successful and you have this and sometimes my work over longs and Attempts people I've been slutshing because my work where I've literally just told actually by someone my friend said Do you want to date him because it kind of work? He does and I thought what kind of work do I do? Like how would you translated it kind of work? He does. And I thought, what kind of work do I do? Like how would you translate it? The kind of work. That's so crazy because you're so like, I would think because of your knowledge and your openness. That would be like a, I've also been told by people I care too much, that I care too much about all these isms and these social injustices. And they're like, oh my God, stop caring so much about this flyer for this bar and who's not being included.

And I'm at the doctor's office saying, you do a rush and take form. Only says male and female. Not everyone identifies that way. That might feel oppressed other people. Can you add a blank space? Like, I'm that guy. You are that guy. And so like, oh my God. I swear I'm telling you.

Sure. No, I swear I'm so fun. I'm so fun. So when you go to a doctor's office, or you go, where do you say, I'm male female, when do you say you are? I'm fun. I swear I'm fun. I see now you're triggered. I don't know male female? What do you say you are? I'm fine, I swear, I'm fine. I see now you're triggered.

I don't know, I mean, you sound like you're a kid. It's all the above, it's all the above. But here's the thing, so, off-lippin' on you. Uh-oh. So let's say you were single, I have to believe you be one of those people that would be like, um, aware of where you're going to eat me

or what you're eating, what they look like. And so that's your version of my version right where yeah If I'm dating someone in there like oh, I can't eat at a restaurant today. I'm like I know I know I'm 100% That's my way, but it's like what we do. It's like what we eat how much we're eating where we're going if it's clean enough not clean But also forget about that. I'm single not single. Yeah on the sexual stuff. I actually understand I Relate to a lot what you're saying. so I think there's so many things right now, or not right now, that I've always said, I'm very much, I'm always like a person

who beats to my own drum, and I find it very difficult sometimes in a society where, especially with where I am in my life, and I'm a Jewish girl, and did it at like, you're Jewish, Chris. 15%. Okay, I'm 130%. That's real. I'm Israeli, so. You just found this out, so it's near for me. 15%, Chris. 15%. OK, I'm 130%. That's real. I'm Israeli.

You just found this out. So it's near for me. 15%. Wow. Well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well difficult to get out of that box. A lot of people don't value that, right? They don't value that. You think that they would. Even though you said earlier about authenticity, like everyone's like, there's some people they're like, oh, I love that she's so real and authentic and I'll say whatever and I'll

do whatever. Right. But a lot of people are like, she's so blunt and she's like too, she's crazy, she's crazy. You know, like that's like the word for someone who's like, not... But it's like we're saying before, there's the good you know, like that's like the the word for someone who's like not. But it's like we're saying before, there's the good and the bad with that element that you like in someone. Yeah, absolutely. So it's like people will meet me and they love how outgoing I am and how loud and accepting

and I'm so fun because I'm always happy. I'm pretty much always in a good mood because I like my life. I like my work. I get to heal people. But then they get frustrated. Even this way, even nice way. Yeah, they can frustrate me. They'll be like, it's 10 o'clock.

Can you take it down a notch? Yeah. And you like, can you stop talking so much? Exactly. It's like, babe, that's why you love me, but not after APM. Apps, that's so true. Exactly. And like, I'll, you know, dress how I want to certain things

in the little bit. Can't you blah, blah, blah. It's like, you're normal. It's like, you're normal. It's so crazy. It's a wild world out there. It is a wild world, but you've made it work for you. That's the reality of it.

You've kind of like, I'm blessed in that because I very much couldn't have, right? Like you as well, like you're very successful and we could have somehow gotten derailed, but I'll tell you, my success is based on me believing in myself and never, never deterring from what makes sense to me. I turned down, I turned down two huge Bravo TV shows that probably would have made me a household in my billboards.

It wasn't right for me. Which shows were they? One of them was about, I think Emily Morris might have not, one of them was about sex or doctors in LA. I didn't remember any of that. I told the couple two or three years ago maybe, was that? Yeah, I was supposed to be the one guy's role and they used someone else. Well, the show flopped. It did. It didn't remember anything. I told a couple, two or three years ago maybe, was that? Yeah, I was supposed to be the one guy's role and they used someone else.

Well, the show flopped. It did. It didn't do anything. And my first TV show, I did a TV show called Bad Sex, Two Seasons on Rogo, and Bravo originally was gonna do it, but they wanted part of it my reality about my life. The show's about me doing sex therapy. It's a really great show.

And I said no, because at that time, I wasn't ready to make my life a reality show. Really? And so I just get my head down. I do my work. I say no to things that don't feel okay to me. And luckily the world is wanting some of it. You know, my work isn't standard and normative.

So I'm not as famous as certain people. And I never will be that are like dating coaches that are perpetuating the same stuff. And they have millions of followers and I don't. Name one is a ghost. Name one is dating coach. I don't want to. Not Patty Stanger. No, but she's kind of an example. But there's a couple people. I'm't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it.

I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it.

I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it.

I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don work is radical. I'm trying to push this forward. And so I'm not supposed to be. But you're also, if you say you're a niche person, but people who need to know you, know who you are, and obviously you're very successful in what you're doing.

But I think this is the, again, not to go back to social media, but in a world where everything is about social media now has become like the mecca for what success. And it's a pile of nonsense because most of it is Such it's all garbage. It's like how many followers do you have? It's like that's my blog. People say that my book how was your book selling and I'll say them I honestly told my agent I don't want numbers you were about that because for me people are reaching out saying I read your book and it transformed me I read your book at me me feel came the world. I read your book and I felt related to, and I'm like that success.

I'm doing awesome. I don't want to look at my social media, but how many Instagram followers do I have? And that's going to determine how I feel about myself and my career that day. But you know what the sad part is that people now look at that stuff and they rate your success or your legitimacy based on if you have a million followers, 10,000 followers, and it's become like a psychological mind-fuck in a way, right? Where it does like play into, even like in my brain, I'm not going to lie, like in the health and wellness space, before there was social media, you know, I had brand deals

coming out of my ears. I mean, and like this deal, that deal, this show, that show, and then once everything's skewed towards here, my value is now determined by how much people, or how many people like me, or don't like me, doesn't matter. People can buy a million followers. They can buy all the shit. I'll hear. I'll see my agent reference that a deal was sent to me in some of the big names of my field, that they had lesser and more followers, and so they could ask for more or less. And it's like, but your legacy then somehow doesn't matter anymore. No, nothing. And the certification.

That's what I've certified, therapists and licensed. And somehow that doesn't matter. And people that have none of that are offered, it's just wild. Absolutely. Wow. That's what I find wild, is that with all of someone's like,

my, your background, your credentials, your, just like, your season to what you do, all of that's like, this Yahoo who has a million followers, and they're basically showing their butt better, and spewing the quote of the day from some book they found. All of a sudden, that wasn't their quote. That's been re-gurgitated a million times. But this is like, you know? All of a sudden, that wasn't their quote. That wasn't their quote. That's a great quote. That's been like re- like,

grigitated a million times. But this is like, this is, this is the problem. That's where it is. That's where it is. Well, because the industry, Sally, doesn't value the work, they value the money. Because I'll see experts on television

that aren't an actual expert. But again, because they have the numbers on average and it'll make them the money, but they don't ever do their homework of like, who is this person? And, you know, so this person and you know so So it is you know we both keep our head down and we do all work and the people that want us and you to find us and access somewhere there for them And I just work really hard to not go online and use that to determine how I'll feel about myself today

Absolutely, so what do you think that why do you think that you you've like had such great success like it's that it even so like Does it matter how many followers you're in. But like, in your niche, I mean, you're doing a lot of projects. You're also like a successful, like therapist. So you think it's because you've just always been true to who you are. Okay, what are the other?

I've never played by the rules. I've never played by the rules. And I have a text from my father who passed away three years ago, and it was one of the last things he said to me, it was so stunning, and it was something along the lines of, I don't know where it even came from, but he was saying something to me about, keep playing outside the lines and because that's

what your work is about, that's what you're here for. My first book is called Sex Outside the Lines because I've never followed the rules. I started getting tattooed at 17, it was not cool back then. I was like, he's coast, it was very radical. We did it for that reason. I work in sex with in psychology, with in psychology, it's still not really seen as a worthwhile area of study. We're like the bottom of the barrel in the psychology world, the sex people, sexual sciences. What's that? Who cares? So I've just always kind of found my own worth, kept my head down and I just do my work. I do only things that make sense to me and are lying with my values

and I don't play by the rules. And I piss a lot of people off and I know that that's me doing my work when I'm pissing the right people off. Wow, you're scary. Because people in my field that are like your work is scary and I'm like good, should scare you. Now do you only do set like if I wanted to come see you as just a regular person? I do general therapy. You do general? That's my first doctorate and master's as general therapy and then I additionally went and got the couples and sex therapy training. So I do it all is that like an MRMFT Is that what an MFT does? No, no, an MFT would just be a license master's level therapist The certification is CST certified sex therapist and that's a massive

That's another I know I figured you had well you knew you multiple I thought that'd be just another one, another feather in your cap. So to speak. I love school. Amazing. How many hours a week can you actually take people on? I'm in my office about three, three and a half days a week, I do the nightly radio show and the podcast and I'm touring doing a book, a lecture tour and also doing the trainings.

I have a new project, I can't announce that that's going to be tacked on. But I have time, that's the shocking shocking thing is I still go to the gym I still see my friends. I still have a day on the weekend maybe I'm getting wasted and I'm out with my friends laughing I get to the beach I take vacations I just found a way to kind of do it all like I take it myself I take bats at night sometimes just sitting there in the dark with candles my favorite music So it's not like I'm run ragged and miserable like right? You can see you're having a nice time to date. Yeah, cuz I love what I do. It's amazing. And the minute I don't, I'll stop.

That's amazing. Well, okay, what did it ask you to do? I shouldn't forget. You said something that I actually didn't say it. I read it. So I'll hold on a second. Let me just get that it's hold on. You wanted to talk about what muscle dysmorphia

and fitness culture, which we never even talked about. Sure. I just, so one of the things I talk about is kind of going back to what you're saying, there's a lot of people in the mental health space, the fitness space, the wellness space that don't have any idea what they're talking about. And they're promoting some really problematic things

that actually fall under like disordered eating. Right. And so I'm just trying to always call out, like we just have to be careful the advice we're giving because some of it isn't really in service of health because any definition of health that isn't looking at the mental component isn't a complete definition. And so we just have to make sure we're weighing in that we're not pushing people into like food anxieties and body anxieties.

How do you do that? Well, me, I call out some of the threads and comments that I think are that not to call bullshit on people, but just to remind people be careful with that concept that could be misused And lock someone into some body issues and just trying to get people in the you know wellness field to just be a little more thoughtful with some of their terminology I think there's a you're the doctor, but isn't there a big correlation between body issues and sex? I think isn't that like we separate it out and that's one things I keep telling people we can't talk about There's the body positivity movement and sex positive movement, but they don't combine they need to that's it's the same thing It is the same intersect in and out and so that's what my next book is on is looking at the intersections of that

How they play off of each other and also just how like sex is when there's body Transforming the healing things we can do to have our body while vulnerable naked have desire from something reflected back And if you'll want it is one of the most body positive things we can have done to us But if someone is insecure or self-conscious about their body. Yes, that whole experience is like basically like shock to help It can be and that's why it's a slow progress But I always say to people my general off the cuff and again you have to work with this and kind of workshop this, but people that feel insecure about their body have more sex. But I guess, and I don't know, okay, that's actually true now that you think about it,

because don't you, isn't there something that you said, isn't it because they feel what they need to do? I think a lot of times, and like that, because with girls I'm talking, that when they're feeling, they don't feel attractive, they feel that they sometimes need to have sex with somebody in order to feel that they're one-sided. I wish.

Versus because they're, versus the other thing. The empowered position. Right, it's not that. Thank you for pointing that out. That's actually beautiful and necessary distinction. Because I agree with Right. It's not that. Thank you for pointing that out. That's actually a beautiful and necessary distinction. Because I agree with you. Your first example of, I'm doing this because I feel anxious, but it's not from an empowered

position, you're right. That won't make you empowered. That will make you feel misused. And you'll walk away feeling as bad as you did or maybe worse. I thank you. No, you're actually shifting this for me. And I have to use this in my language. I will do it in a therapeutic sense where I'm working with them.

We're choosing specific people that they know, they feel safe with, that they know the person really wants to be with them. So they will feel desire and healing reflected back versus I'm just gonna use your body to get off. Right, well that's what I think a lot of people do though. I think that there's obviously a segment of the population who feel really confident in them,

like the women like we're talking earlier about the gender, the cheating and and all that but I do think there's still a huge amount of people women mostly who are doing it more because they feel like they have to to kind of get this guy or that and I hate that and I tell people never do that like I try to do this three-point checking people where I say them how do you before you about to have sex with this person? Do you feel safe? Do you feel wanted? Do you feel desired? And the first set of women, I hope would say, no, like this doesn't feel safe. It doesn't feel good. I feel anxious and I feel like I need to have sex with him to feel wanted, but like it doesn't feel grounded and safe and I'd say then don't. Then the second point is, when you're having sex, how does it feel during sex or even on a date to be with this person? If it doesn't feel good, stop. People are anxious to stop sex during sex. They feel bad. They feel guilty.

If you're like, I'm not interested anymore, this isn't feeling safe or something shifted. Or even on a date, I've left dates. Oh, it's harsh. No, that's fucking honest. Yeah. I'm sorry, the chemistry's in there or this took a shift or I don't feel safe anymore. I'm actually going to go have an awesome night. Here's my portion of the bill. Yeah. People have a lot of positivity. That's sex- of the bill. Yeah, that's body positivity, that's sex positivity. And afterwards, how did you feel having sex with them?

Your husband even, oh, didn't feel good, you don't feel better, don't have sex with them again, or change the way you're having sex, because every date, every sexual experience, you should walk away feeling better, or at least neutral. But if you're leaving your dates and sex feeling worse, even if your husband or wife stop, change it, do something different, that's not what it's about.

That's very interesting. That's body and sex positivity. Yeah, I think that's one of the things I think that there's a lot of work that needs to be done. Because unfortunately, and maybe I'll get like yelled at for this comment, a lot of girls I know who are insecure, they're the ones who are like just like you know basically like sleeping around with a lot of people because they feel like they need to be like accepted or and they're uncomfortable. And what I find that dichotomy of that is like if you're if you have a poor body

image, how are you even able to do that psychologically? You know what I mean? Because you're uncomfortable. Well, it's interesting. So what I love is even in people that don't identify as having body images, I love helping them track the moments where they do such as GF sex with the lights on, or they can play off. Most of the types of lights off. That's not body popping. That's right, exactly.

That's me being afraid of seeing my body, your body in motion, because really good hot sex is loud, it's messy, it's sloppy. I'm doing weird shit. There's body fluids, but like we'll turn the lights off, or GF sex in positions where you can't see each other, people are like, oh, I often do it from behind. Yeah.

No, I kind of, are your eyes open? Why are you having sex? How about why you're kissing? Do you know how beautifully profound is to make out with someone with your eyes open? Does anyone do that? I do sometimes. Or during sex, actually, say open your eyes and look at me.

And to be in a position, making eye contact through the entire thing with the lights on, that is profound. Yeah, that is, but that's super, too intimate from 99. I'm telling you, people don't do that. So I just remind people though, that even though you might not be like,

turn the lights on and don't, we all have those moments of like body shame and shame being naked and shame around intimacy, we're all on the continuum somewhere. Cause I have my own moments, trust me. I'm like, I got the bar high for myself, right? Cause this is my field, but there's moments where I'm like, I don't feel secure, why is it me?

Is it them? Should I be doing this? Should I not not do I want to like try to tolerate more or what I need to change but I have moments where I'm like whoa I just had sex I didn't want to have or I'm on a date and it's not feeling safe to me or good and I'm sticking around or whatever it is like you know so we are in that struggle. Okay one more question I know that we have to I mean how long has it been I've been to probably like two hours already, but. One hour. Oh gosh, okay. So do you feel when you're meeting someone,

are people intimidated by having sex with you because of all your knowledge? Do you find that more often than not? I hope not. I want them to want to be excited and like, this is gonna be interesting. But they're priced, they're priced off conscious, right? I imagine so.

The people I tend to date tend to skew more confident and so they date with hold sharing that most likely from me They're probably like thinking about in their head like I mean it's good stuff So it's worth it's worth the struggle Well, I was gonna get past past the first part. It's good at the beginning I don't oh my god. It's guys like noticing every little like Interfici of how I'm doing. I'm good at turning that off and just trying to be in my body in the moment. Oh my gosh, it's amazing.

And then I'm gonna ask you to come on. Okay, I was telling you off the thing that I have this charity called Bapes for Boobs. I'm definitely getting you involved. So I'm going to say on this hotline. This is my commitment. Yeah, this is a commitment. This is a wonderful contract.

This is a wonderful contract. You are gonna be involved. I am happy to be involved. K be as a host or something. Or something. Or actually as a bachelor. As a bachelor, possibly. Be both.

Because I love you, I love your work, I love what the cause is and so I'm in. I love you. I'm so happy that you came on to it. Thank you for having me. This is amazing. Thank you. If I had the book, I would show it,

but let's say the rest. Breaking my heart. Rebel love, available everywhere, bookstores online. And then how do people find you? Oh, good. Okay. So my Instagram is Dr. Donahue, DR. Dio, N-A-G-H-U-E, and my Twitter is at Christonuhue, and my website is Dr.Cristonuhue.com.

And they can also listen to your podcast? Yes. My podcast, Amber Rose Show, Dr. Chris, it's on some of those podcast apps, and then Love Line is nightly, it's also streaming on the Radio those podcast apps, and then Loveline is nightly. It's also streaming on the radio.com app and also podcasted. Wow, okay, that's a busy, busy guy you are. I know, I'm out there.

Wow, well thank you, and I'm gonna ask you, you can, well, we didn't really cover another thing, but we'll come back. Okay, beautiful. Thank you so much for coming. Thank you, bye. Bye! I'm Heather Monahan, host of Creating Confidence, a part of the YAP Media Network, the number one business and self-improvement podcast network. Okay, so I wanna tell you a little bit about my show.

We are all about elevating your confidence to its highest level ever and taking your business right there with you. Don't believe me, I'm gonna go ahead and share some of the reviews of the show so you can believe my listeners. I have been a long longtime fan of Heather's, no matter what phase of life I find myself in,

Heather seems to always have the perfect gems of wisdom that not only inspire, but motivate me into action. Her experience and personality are unmatched, and I love her go getter attitude. This show has become a staple in my life. I recommend it to anyone looking to elevate their confidence and reach that next level. Thank you! I recently got to hear Heather at a live podcast taping with her and Tracy Hayes, and I immediately

subscribe to this podcast. It has not disappointed, and I cannot wait to listen to as many as I can, as quick as I can. Thank you, Heather, for helping us build confidence and bring so much value to the space. If you are looking to up your confidence level, click creating confidence now. build confidence and bring so much value to the space. If you are looking to up your confidence level, click creating confidence now.