Halford & Brough in the Morning - NFL QB Tiers + NHL Coaching Hot Seat

Episode Date: August 28, 2024

In hour two Mike Halford and Jason Brough talk to Mike Sando about his NFL quarterback tiers. ESPN’s Arda  Öcal joins to discuss Sidney Crosby’s future with the Penguins and NHL’s latest news. They also discuss which NHL coach will be in the hot seat this season.  This podcast is produced by Andy Cole and Greg Balloch. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

7.03 on a Wednesday. Happy Wednesday, everybody. Halford Brub, Sportsnet 650. Halford Brub of the Morning is brought to you by Vancouver Honda. Vancouver's premier destination for Honda customers. They have a friendly, knowledgeable staff that can help with anything you're looking for, be it sales, financing, service, or parts. Which European city are we in right now?

I always like to go with Dusseldorf. Prague. Budapest. Budapest. Budapest. We are coming to you live from the Kintec studio in Budapest. Kintec, Canada's favorite orthotics provider, powered by thousands of five-star Google reviews.

Sorfie, what are you waiting for? Kintec, that's what you're waiting for. Getting more and more excited for the start of the NFL campaign. I've had two days in a row now where I've gone to get my 7 a.m. coffee, and I've been approached with fantasy football talk from a local. Just some inter-office banter. Do you like your team? I know you had your draft a few days ago.

I don't. You don't like it? I don't care for it. The general manager stinks. He is also me. One went better. I'm in two leagues. Okay'm in the is this a full draft or do they are there some leagues where it's like carryovers from they're called keeper keeper leagues i don't know yeah stuff so um there's one that we do i'm

in two different leagues and they're very different one is very serious and it involves like a very lengthy process and taxi squads and separate rookie drafts and everything and then there's the other one i have and it's more of a fun social league and we actually do the draft live we don't do it online okay uh this year we did it at a friend's place and he had a pool and i actually conducted the majority of the draft from the pool which tier of quarterback is your starting quarterback brother there's not even a tier that low. Let me tell you. It is not.

Who's your guy? It was not a great. No, I'm just kidding. I've got, as a starter, I've got, who do I have? I've got Dak Prescott. You don't even know your team? I've got Dak Prescott, and then in my backup, I have Will Levis.

Okay. So it's not actually that bad. Anyway, the reason he's bringing up quarterback tiers is because Mike Sando from The Athletic has his annual list out. If you're not familiar with this process, every year there is a panel that includes general managers, head coaches, coordinators, executives, assistant coaches, and some analytics people, and they put together the list,

the tiers of all the quarterbacks in the National Football League. So joining us now as part of his media blitz for the QB tiers for 2024, Mike Sando from The Athletic joins us now on the Halford & Brough Show on Sportsnet 650. Morning, Mike. How are you? I'm doing great. Thank you. It's my favorite project of the year. It is a lot of fun.

And I've been following along over the last couple of days. And Mike Sando is everywhere right now, but with good reason because this list is a very cool initiative. It's got a lot of history behind it, and it's always got a lot of different jumping-off points for conversation. I guess the one this year that I've seen in a number of your hits, and it's been pretty prevalent, is that there's only three guys that got in that Tier 1 selection.

I'll spoil it for the listeners. It's Patrick Mahomes, no shock there. Josh Allen, no real shock there. Joe Burrow is the third guy. So when the results of the list came out and you post it for public consumption, two-part question here. One, how surprised were people that there are only three guys in that first tier? And then the second question would be how many people were more surprised that Lamar Jackson wasn't in that tier? Yeah. So actually, and actually Burrow was ahead of Allen. So when Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, and yes, I would say the number one reaction I got from, you know, people in social media and other reporters and people who follow the NFL closely

was that Joe Burrow's injuries might keep him from being in Tier 1. And then just the fact that he's maybe less dynamic of an athlete than a Josh Allen, you know, he would be below Josh. So within the league, you know, I think if Burrow has another injury-plagued season, I think that'll start to hurt him. It hurt him a little bit this year, but not enough. The way I look at Tiers 1 and 2, for the most part, if you have a quarterback in the top two tiers and there's 14 of them, I think you feel like you got a chance to go to the Super Bowl, injured. I feel like those guys are kind of your tier one and a half. They're real close.

Lamar Jackson was two or three votes from being in tier one. And you might say, like a lot of people have, wait, MVP of the league, not in the top tier. Please explain. And really the only hang up for Lamar Jackson during his career is that when his team has had to pass the ball, meaning when it's no longer feasible to run and do all of the other things they've done, when they're trailing, when he's got to throw, it has sometimes looked bad. It has been tough for him in the playoffs. You know, I think he's 2-4 in the playoffs.

His passer rating's low, 75, something like that. And we just haven't seen him have that second half shootout with Mahomes or whatever, that sort of a thing where he really held his own even if he would have lost. So that's why he's right on that edge. But certainly he got closer than he ever has before, and I think if he has a better season like last year, he might inch over that line anyway. How much do you get? Mike Sando doesn't know what he's talking about when this list comes out.

And then you have to explain the methodology. Perhaps you could explain the methodology. Yeah. Yeah, so the methodology is really fun. It's a little daunting in the beginning because we're usually right after the draft is when we know who the starting quarterback candidates are for every team. And I always set the rookies aside because no one's seen them play in the NFL. And I will have a list. It'll be maybe 35 quarterbacks that are vying for starting jobs or are going to start. And I will go in person a lot of the time to teams or over

the phone as well with 50 coaches and executives in the league. So that's head coaches, GMs, coordinators, other front office executives. A number of them are former GMs or just people who've been around the game a long time. And I will remind them what the criteria is, which I've developed over a 10-year period with help from people in the league. It's not mine. And then we'll go through it. And so there will be a little variance. I mean, some people, this year there were some voters who only had Mahomes in Tier 1. And then you might find another voter who has 6 or 7 in there.

So there is a little variance, but that's why I do 50. And then some of those outliers get sort of smoothed together. And in the end, what you have is a market analysis. For better or worse, this is what the league thinks of the players. And I think that differentiates it from any other type of a list that could be my list or your list, which could be interesting but not as informative. Were there any selections or – they're not selections,

but when you looked at this list yourself, were there any like, I disagree with that. So initially, initially, I thought Lamar Jackson and Rogers might be in tier one. I don't know that I disagree. I see the point. I thought Trevor Lawrence was a little low for Jacksonville. He fell seven spots. He's in the top of tier three. I thought Trevor Lawrence was a little low for Jacksonville. He fell seven spots. He's in the top of Tier 3.

If you're in Tier 3, you're a fine quarterback. You're going to start. You're probably going to make a lot of money. But I don't feel like your team has as upward of a shot, right, to really go all the way. And so Trevor Lawrence, just a year ago, I think people were really high on him. And so I wondered, is he too low? Should he be higher than this? But as I looked at who I would move from above in the bottom of tier two, Jordan Love, Kirk Cousins, Brock Purdy, Jalen Hurts, Jared Goff, those guys at the bottom

of tier two, I didn't really see somebody that, you know, I would put him over that he's earned it. So I think it's a pretty solid list. You know, I don't know that I would change a ton. I would put him over that he's earned it. So I think it's a pretty solid list. I don't know that I would change a ton. I would tweak a couple things, but I think it nails it pretty good. So you got Dak Prescott ranked ninth overall tier two quarterback. So if you're the Dallas Cowboys, and let's say Dak is the same this year as he has been, and the Cowboys don't win the Super Bowl, but they make the playoffs, and they're a good regular season team.

Now, is it possible that Dak becomes the highest paid quarterback in the NFL? And if you're a general manager or an owner of a team, how do you deal with that discrepancy? Because there's no question that you might be overpaying him, but if you move on from Dak, then you're in kind of no man's land. It's a, it's a great point because I think people expected when the NFL switched to its current collective bargaining agreement, the general framework about 15 years ago,

it made the drafted quarterbacks, the guys you took super early in the draft, it made them cheap and people thought, well, now you'll have teams move on from these guys and find the next one. And we really haven't found teams that do that. I mean, Kirk Cousins is one of the few veteran quarterbacks who's actually become a free agent over the years. And now, take a look at the top of Tier 3. Tua Tung of Loa. This is Tier 3. Tua Tung of Loa of $53 million. Trevor Lawrence, $55. Kyler Murray to Sean Watson of a low. This is tier three to a tongue of a low of 53 million. Trevor Lawrence, 55. Kyler Murray, Deshaun Watson, huge contracts, right? For guys that the league isn't even perceiving to be elite difference makers. So it's a great point. It's a great conundrum.

I think for Dallas, they're a little different than some of these other teams because Jerry Jones, the owner of the team, is the GM. I think what happens with some of these other GMs is if they're not going to pay their guy or if they're going to try to play hardball with him, they have to have a difficult conversation internally with their owner where they admit that their guy maybe isn't all that special, that guy they drafted, right? And so sometimes it may be easier nowadays to just pay your guy and buy peace with him. And we've seen a couple instances with Philadelphia, with Carson Wentz, or the Rams with Jared Goff, where these general managers paid the guy a ton of money, and then they were able to move on from him anyway and get a different quarterback.

It didn't end up costing those guys their jobs. So sometimes I think the GMs may perceive greater risk in playing hardball and admitting that our guy is not the guy than they do of just paying the guy and moving on and figuring it out later. But Jerry Jones is different because he isn't going to get fired. So if he wants to not give a contract extension to Mike McCarthy, the head coach, which he hasn't done, and he's made it plain why they haven't gotten over the hump and wants to do that with Dak Prescott. He can do it.

We'll see. What do you think about, just in general, the Seahawks quarterback situation as it stands right now? You've got Geno Smith tied for 20th. Not you, the list. Has Geno Smith tied for 20th with Derek Carr in New Orleans just ahead of Russell Wilson, which is kind of funny. Well, if you look at, so he's 20th in this thing. He's also 20th in the

salary list. Okay. He's his salary per year is 25 million. The 21st guy in salary is making 12 and a half, half as much. So there's a huge cliff right after him in quarterback tiers, where you go to Russell Wilson and then down into Tier 4. Russell Wilson's plunging, right? And then the guys in Tier 4. There's the same salary shelf, too. So we might say Geno Smith is kind of the last of the legitimate, real legitimate quarterbacks that their teams are happy to have.

They're looking forward to the season. they're not super worried about them. The coaching staff in Seattle has seemed to be super positive about Geno Smith. They did acquire Sam Howell. I think the personnel folks there liked Sam Howell too. So they have a little bit of a plan B in a younger guy if it doesn't go well. But I think internally there, they're really excited to see Geno Smith with this new offense, and I kind of feel like Geno's a tick or two underrated. I think Seattle would take Geno Smith over several of those guys that are above him in Tier 3. I think you can make a case that he's better than some of those guys in Tier

3. Yeah, it's a tough one. I mean, we're Seahawks fans here, so we have our biases. But I think it's fair to say that Mike and I like Geno Smith, but we don't know if he's good enough to help win the Seahawks a Super Bowl or really be contenders. And the question is, and actually I have a real hypothetical for you. Would you rather be, if you're looking for the quarterback of the future, the worst team in the league so you get the first overall pick, or you're an okay team, maybe quarterback is your biggest concern and you've got a decent defense, you've got some playmakers on offense, but you've only got the 20th overall pick. Which situation is better to be in?

It really depends on who's available in the draft that year at quarterback. If it's one of those, I mean, there was a year where the Chiefs had the number one overall pick, you know, over about 10 years ago, and they didn't even take a quarterback because there wasn't one. There's other years where Caleb Williams or Andrew Luck is waiting for you, even Trevor Lawrence. I think I would rather have that type of a year where I have access to one of those higher odds, really good prospects than I would to go the other route. Some of it, too, is just what's the makeup of your team?

What kind of a runway do you have to build the team as a GM? So many of the owners of teams now are not family football people. They're guys who made a ton of money in avenues or businesses where if Wall Street doesn't like what's going on, they just replace the CEO and they might do it next year too. And so that is really changing the dynamic, I think, in the league as well. These guys have so much money. The owner of the Panthers can just fire one coach, fire one the next year, fire a guy 11 games in, right? In that case, you'd almost rather have the 20th best quarterback, right? Or somebody like that, because at least your floor is higher and you're not going

to get fired after five minutes. We're speaking to Mike Sando from The Athletic discussing his 2024 NFL quarterback tiers piece here on the Halford & Brough Show on Sportsnet 650. An exercise like this will always generate some pretty polarizing debates and conversations. Brock Purdy, I noticed that there's people that are either saying he's too high or he's too low. You know, he was fourth in MVP voting

or there's no way that he could be 12th. How much conversation have you had around Brock Purdy coming in, in Tier 2, 12th overall, just right between, sandwiched between Jalen Hurts and Kirk Cousins? You know, I think, it's funny, I think that people are okay with where he's at. Last year was difficult because he was lights out the year before, but only in seven games, and people had him,

he was down at the bottom of Tier 3, of tier four more like hey we need to see more that generated a lot of pushback a lot of 49er fans i did a lot of san francisco radio you know and they're like come on brock purdy i think he got his due a little bit you know you could make a case uh that he should be hired in a couple guys but i think he will be if he has a better season like that he's going to creep up now Now, is he going to push for Tier 1? I think that would take a pretty spectacular. Maybe he would need to, hey, we finish it off, go to the Super Bowl again, or win the Super Bowl, that sort of a thing.

Because I don't think people see him traits-wise as, oh my gosh, we're playing Brock Purdy this week. But you have to respect the production. And I think they did that in this. I mean, he's above Kirk Cousins, who's been a good quarterback. Not great, but good for 10 years. I think he's right about where he belongs, Purdy.

So Mike, final question. Which quarterback heading into this season do you see as having the most pressure on him? And while you think, I'll give you some candidates. Lamar Jackson, Justin Herbert, Aaron Rodgers, Dak Prescott, a lot of the guys in that tier two list. It's interesting. So the most pressure to me, I'm going to look at it a little bit different way. Like I think some of those guys are super established. I mean, Lamar's got a huge

contract. Dak's going to make big money either way. He showed he can make huge money when he hurt his ankle really bad. I look at a few other guys, like tipping point guys. To me, Jalen Hurts, you know, they weren't as good on offense last year after Shane Steichen, his offensive coordinator, left to become coach of the Colts. Or how about if you're Kirk Cousins? How well does he have to play? How much do they have to win so they don't move on to Pennix? Like these are guys, you know, Hurts in that market and just being perceived differently. I think a better down year for him, he could be in top of Tier 3. But Kirk Cousins could lose his job.

Like if they were 9-8 and missed the playoffs or just one and done, they could move on from him in a year. So I'd say him and then the next guy would be Trevor Lawrence. Great expectations, but the coaching staff's near the end of the line if they don't get something going there. I feel like those are some real hot-button ones, and you probably even put Deshaun Watson in there too. No pressure because he's going to make $130 million over the next three years,

but if he has another bad year, would they move on from him and just eat the money? The 2024 NFL quarterback tiers list is out now at The Athletic. The author is Mike Sando. Go check it out. You can also visit him on Twitter at SandoNFL. Mike, thanks a lot for doing this today. We really appreciate it.

Enjoy the rest of the media tour and enjoy the start of the regular season. Thank you. Loved the conversation. We'll do it again the regular season. Thank you. Love the conversation. We'll do it again. Sounds great. Thanks, Mike. Appreciate it. That's Mike Sando.

A couple of people texted in. Where can we find this list? We'll reply to you individually. But if you just go on to the interwebs, it's at The Athletic. And then if you want to check out Mike on Twitter again, it's at Sando, S-A-N-D-O, NFL. It's a very cool list. The bottom three. I want to read the bottom three.

Yeah, do it. Bryce Young. He had some draft pedigree. Sam Darnold. Poor Josh. Like, he's a Vikings fan. You know, Josh, your replacement. Josh Elliott-Wolf.

I'm familiar with his work. Yeah. J.J. McCarthy gets hurt, and all of a sudden, he's like, oh, good. Sam Darnold. Sweet. And number 30th, Jacoby Brissett with the Patriots, but maybe that is Drake May.

Like maybe Jacoby Brissett shouldn't even be on this list because he's not actually a starting quarterback. Right, and if he is the starting quarterback, he might not be for that long. Yeah. That's what I go up to. What did Russ come in at, number 22? I don't, yeah, it's funny.

Which is interesting because I don't know how long he's going to be the starter in Pittsburgh. Do you, I think he's got to, I would wager he is going to be the starter for the entire season over, at some point they go, okay, fine, Justin Fields, you get a chance. Because I think Justin Fields is not good. Yeah, but you know who else isn't very good? Russell Wilson. Yeah. I'd be shocked if they go in a tailspin

and they lose a bunch of games and they don't make a change. Yeah. I just don't. That division is still very competitive. The Steelers still have playmakers in a lot of important positions, and they probably

could grind out another 8-9 win season to make the playoffs, which is sort of part and parcel over the last couple years. Well, maybe it goes like this. Russ doesn't play well for 4 or 5 games. Everyone calls for Justin Fields. Justin Fields gets a start, and everyone's like, okay, back to Russ. Yeah, I mean, that could happen too.

The preseason has been ugly. Fields has been marginally better at times, but you're right. It hasn't looked remarkable with either guy behind center. And that's part, you got two guys. I think it's most likely that just neither of them works out and they got to figure out something next year. Right.

And it's been this sort of rotating door for the last few years of quarterback. And that's what happens when you draft late. Where's Kenny Pickett now? He's a backup somewhere. Yeah, but Pickett was never meant to be a number one guy. They really forced that issue, forced forced his hand his very tiny hand yeah they're like yeah he went to pit let's try it right so he knows the stadium yeah and it's just like well it didn't work out and they've had countless guys come in and then now it's well

you've got to you've got two intriguing guys but only intriguing because you're wondering if they can get their careers back on track it's not because they came there under great circumstances i mean russ was dumped out of denver and justin fields was dumped out of chicago so the reclamation projects do you think russ still thinks he's super mobile like he's got that i think it is capability i think in his mind he still believes that he has a lot of the tools that made him as good as he was in se. And I thought what Tanier said to us on Monday was the most interesting thing. It's like he's hit that age where we've seen countless quarterbacks

just fall off like that. Not as gradual decline. It's a sharp decline. But mentally, he doesn't think he's there because, and there is this argument to be made, statistically, the numbers he put up in Denver last year were fine he was a fine quarterback last year he doesn't stretch the field anymore though no he doesn't do a lot of the things that he used he used field I mean I remember he could

drop it in the bucket pretty effectively that was a great long that was a great deep ball with accuracy and that seems to have gone away as well. So it's not just the mobility factor. It's that he can't make the throws he used to make. So you have to have. Does he even try anymore, though? Well, I mean, a smart coordinator is not drawing up, like, let's go deep. They're not drawing that up anymore. You have to tailor your game to what he can do.

The Seahawks did for half a season. It looked like Russ was going to win MVP. And then the other defensive coordinators are like, we should probably take away that deep ball. Right. What happens if we blitz a lot? Good one. Okay.

Oh, we're up against it for time. Okay. So we're going to talk to Arto Ocal. ESPN NHL coverage. We'll get to some of these stories in the NHL that we spoke about earlier. Sidney Crosby's future in Pittsburgh. Some of the pending UFA guys going into the final year of their contracts. We also haven't talked about the coaching hot seat,

but that also goes back to Pittsburgh and Sidney Crosby as well, because I think the number one guy going in to this season on the hot seat is Mike Sullivan in Pittsburgh. It doesn't seem like there's a candidate that's even close to him. So we can talk to Arda about that as well. We can also talk about some of the other teams that might be interesting. We've got a new team in Utah by the way. I totally forgot about that. I actually

asked someone the other day. It's like, when do the Canucks go to Arizona? And they're like, they don't. They don't do that anymore. And to the Tampa Bay Lightning, a team that underwent some major off-season surgery, including the removal of Steve Sampson. Is that era, are we seeing the end of the era

right now? I do wonder. We can ask Arda about that coming up. It's all coming up next on the Halford & Brough Show on Sportsnet 650. 7.33 on a Wednesday. Euro Dance Wednesday is here on the Halford and Brough Show on Sportsnet 650. Greg found out this morning perusing some of the audio clips and slugs that Shaquille O'Neal is an EDM DJ.

Really? Yeah, I didn't know. He's coming to Toronto apparently. You thought that it might have been a spin-off of his fledgling rap career, but there's two different Shacks, two different musical elements to Shacks. There's two wolves inside Shack. Isn't Paris Hilton quite popular too? As an EDM general?

EDM DJ. Big hair Paris Hilton. She was. I don't know. I'm not big into the EDM world. No? No, not at all. I knew the Shack thing.

You don't like the music? No, I don't mind it. Do we need to call Jay Swing here and get him on the line? No. No. The joke with Shack is like, No, I don't mind it. Do we need to call J-Swain here and get him on the line? No. No. The joke with Shaq is like, could you imagine going to an electronic music show and maybe being on some sort of like-

Here comes Shaq. Right. It's like, what's happening right now? There's a giant man on the stage. How many drugs did I do? What's happening right now? Do you think he wears his like Kazam outfit? No.

I've seen him. He gets into it too. He's jumping up and down and everything. Yeah. Break the stage. I like the music, but I think I would feel 6,000 years old at one of those festivals. Maybe we've talked about this. Yes.

There needs to be like a middle-aged section, which is cordoned off from the young people. That's what everyone wants at their EM show. Like there's not drugs here. There's a nice bottle of wine. Daniel and Campbell does confirm that Paris Hilton is, he says she's quite good. Yeah, yeah. There you go.

I did not know that. We're learning things ahead of what we learn. By the way, get your What We Learns in Dunbar-Lemmer text line at 650-650. This is the Halford & Brough Show. You are listening to the Halford & Brough Show. Our next guest on the Halford & Brough Show from ESPN, Arda Ocal joins us now on Sportsnet 650. Morning, Arda. You are listening to the Halford & Brough Show. Our next guest on the Halford & Brough Show from ESPN, Arda Ocal, joins us now on Sportsnet 650.

Morning, Arda. How are you? Gents, I'm doing good. I just heard Paris Hilton with no context. What were you saying? Jason here, my co-host, alerted me. I had no idea that in addition to being the hotel heiress and a social media influencer,

Paris Hilton is also a popular and I guess successful EDM DJ. Yeah. There you go. I did not know this. Yes. So actually, when Clubhouse was a thing, if people remember that app, especially during the pandemic, it was a big deal. It was like audio stages on your app, right?

It was almost like a Twitter space. I guess it inspired Twitter spaces, but Paris Hilton would be all over them and she would just pop into random ones all the time. So like I've been in several spaces where she just popped in and jumped on stage and started talking and she would talk about her DJing career. So it was pretty like a pretty, pretty wild thing to happen. It's pretty cool. Um, all right, let's get back to the hockey talk. So one of the things that we were talking about earlier in the show and have been for the last two days is Sidney Crosby and the fact that he hasn't signed

an extension in Pittsburgh. What do you think is going to happen there? Well, well, first I'm wondering how this affects paris hilton i just want to be clear yeah um beyond that uh uh i i think that they get it done i it's i know that we just went through this with steven stamkos and how jarring it's going to be at first to see him in a predator's uniform and you know the funny clip of him remembering an overtime goal he scored because he remembers every single one of his goals. It's like his gift. But with Sidney Crosby, it's just really tough to see him more than any other player in the league, honestly, donning another jersey. So I understand it's a business. I understand there are different motivations at play, especially when people get on in their careers and that's the ruthless part of the business unfortunately but

i just see i can't see them not coming to some sort of terms and i honestly don't think that in everyone that i've spoken to about crosby and who cover him extensively he doesn't want to play anywhere else that's the response that i've heard over and over again as early as or as late as a couple months ago even. So, you know, who knows what happens? Nothing is guaranteed. But it would be, if I were betting, I'd say he's staying with the Penguins. Can you just imagine, though, if he's available at the deadline? I think that would be crazy.

I would love that as a media person because there'd be a lot to talk about. I hope it happens on the very last day of the deadline because then we could do it during our trade deadline special. That would be fun. How do you think the Penguins look after a few moves that Kyle Dubas has made this offseason? To me, they generally look the same. Yeah, I don't know if they're, they could be a wild card team. It was very weird at the end of last season, right,

where it was almost like hot potato, but in reverse. Like, no, you go into the playoffs. No, you go into the playoffs. No, I don't want it. No, I don't want it either. Like, it really felt like every team in the East, however many there were, upwards of six or even seven, that were battling within the last week of the NHL season, just kept squandering their positions.

And the Penguins were one of them. But this year, I really wonder, especially with the other teams being very top-heavy in the East, whether they will be a wildcard contending team on paper right now, or if they're going to miss the playoffs and they're going to be in that like, you know, 17, 18,

19 spot where they still don't get a favorable draft pick when it's all said and done. We're speaking to Arda O'Call from ESPN's NHL coverage here on the Halford and Brough show on Sportsnet 650. Arda, you alluded earlier to Steve Stamkos departing the Tampa Bay Lightning. Another really interesting team out of the East to watch this year. In terms of, is the era over?

They've made moves. They brought back Ryan McDonough. But the Stamkos departure might have been more symbolic than just the longtime captain in the face of the franchise leaving. He did score a lot of goals for them last year, and they did move along. What do you think the outlook is for the Lightning this season? Yeah, I think they're going to be a team among those that people might say they they will regress uh just based on the departures they still have some key features they still have some quality all-star mvp caliber players they still have the boolean uh they still

have um uh terrific net minding with vasilevsky. So I hesitate to say that they're going to be a bad team based on the pieces they have. And I also wonder, that's a very, very smart front office that they have there. And of course, they have one of the best coaches of our time at the helm. So I feel like if they're a team that contends healthily, they go on a couple win streaks, maybe they stumble once or twice, but they're still pretty competitive near the trade deadline and they make a couple of moves, I wouldn't be surprised if that's their trajectory this season. Why do you think they ultimately did not make space for Stephen Stamkos?

Probably the same reasons we're thinking about with Sidney Crosby. I mean, this happened the last time too, right? Like I think there was a surprisingly long wait to sign Stephen Stamkos in Tampa the last time they were doing contract negotiations, which surprised a lot of people also. And I don't know if that lingered. I'm, you know, athletes will never really say that in public that it did, but behind the scenes, if it were me, I'd certainly be heard about it, or it would certainly affect me, you know, thinking I put my heart and soul into a team and this is how I get treated. And I understand it's all business, but, you know, business and personal often bleed, as we know, as media types, right?

So I do think that there's a little bit of that, a little bit of advancement in the career, despite the numbers. Maybe they just felt the price tag is not worth what we believe we will get from this player for the next several years, despite the fact that a lot of people would believe he earned his spot for the rest of his career based on his production in the past. But past production doesn't always get rewarded, especially in cases like this. Hey, in a related story with all this Stamko stuff,

is there a GM in the NHL that you're more fascinated in or more interested in than Barry Trotz in Nashville? That guy has made some huge moves in just, what, the couple of years he's been in charge there? I think it's awesome. And, like, he's coming in after David Poyle, who's like, you know, the GOAT. Like, I just like that whole system. Like, Barry Trotz is a very well-respected guy, obviously, one of the most respected

in the league what he did as a coach winning a Stanley Cup now uh transitioning to general manager and being under that learning tree and making the moves that he did like could you ask for a more impactful first impression in a sense you know like I I'm i'm very impressed now obviously this if we have another uh segment like this in six months and the predators aren't doing so well maybe we'll have a different conversation about it but but for now it looks great uh the intrigue factor i've got two for you here one how intrigued are you by the NHL and the first season in Utah? Very, very, very intrigued. I think the recipe for success is there for Utah. You have a very motivated, very hungry, very ambitious owner that wants to succeed, wants the team to succeed, and will invest in the team. And if every team had an owner

like that, it would be the best possible foundation you could have. And it will roll downhill. I really think that motivation, that ambition, that vibe, that paradigm will roll downhill. And I think that Ryan Smith will ensure that. So I'm very bullish on Utah. I think they're going to take some healthy swings. I think they're going to take some healthy swings i think they're going to do a lot of fun things and you know like the newness factor is always there like it's going to be cool to watch the first game just like it was with seattle and to see what it's like and what the fans are like etc but yeah i'm definitely bullish on utah and i'm happy that we have ryan smith in the nhl uh the other intrigue factor, a bit of newness,

although it's a sort of re-foray back into best-on-best international competition. Not quite what we'll get at the Olympics, but the Four Nations face-off. Of course, you're working for ESPN. ESPN is a rights holder. They're going to be airing the final. How intrigued are you by the Four Nations face-off coming up in February? Also very. I'm happy that this is a bridge. I'm happy that the World Cup of Hockey in its full form will return as well.

I've always been an advocate for best on best. I mean, everyone listening to this remembers 2010, the Olympics very, very well. My personal sports career highlight was 2002, watching the men's and women's win gold at the 2002 Olympics and remembering being that guy watching both gold medal games and being so proud to be Canadian.

And, you know, the storyline of that men's team in particular, not having won a gold medal in half a century, and they finally get the job done. And that game was incredible against America. And, Gio, Sakic, like like just the calls that you remember forever stand up and cheer canada like just you know the late great bob cole uh you know bringing us home so yeah i mean look that's at the end of the day the nhl like hockey is awesome best on best is what the players want. It's absolutely what the fans want. And it's just the best kind of, to me,

the best kind of competition that can exist. So Olympics, World Cup of Hockey, whatever it is, I understand all the business stuff that took a while for us to get here, but I'm just happy it's here. Season can't start soon enough. Arda, thanks for doing this today, man. We really appreciate it. Anytime.

Arda Ocal from ESPN, part of their NHL coverage, along with our good buddy Greg Wyshynski here on the Halpern and Brough Show on Sportsnet 650. Let's talk a bit about Tampa. Okay. I was reading an article in The Athletic that was written in May, and they were talking about Tampa, and they had just gone out in the first round again,

and it was to the eventual Stanley Cup champs in Florida, so hey, fair enough. and they were talking about Tampa and they had just gone out in the first round again. And it was to the eventual Stanley Cup champs in Florida. So, hey, fair enough. But John Cooper had this quote and he said, if there's ever a time when the band breaks up, we'll have all gotten a room and say, okay, it's time for the band to break up. I don't think it's a situation where you wake up one day and someone is gone.

It's not the way it's run here. This is a special organization because this is so hard to do in pro sports. It's hard to have the best record in the league and get swept in the playoffs and bite your tongue and keep the group together. That's what makes this thing works because of the trust.

We're all in this together. And then like a month later, Stamkos was gone sure right um I don't know what to make of this team right now I kind of understand their thinking and saying like well Stamkos is kind of old Jake Gensel is good and he's young so maybe we could replace those two. But don't forget, they also sent Sergeyev packing to Utah and they brought back Ryan McDonough. And I know I shouldn't do this because our brains are just like, we look for patterns. That's all it is, right?

Yep. When they brought back Sergeyev, did you not think about Brandon Sod coming back to Chicago? Like they're kind of like, well. When they brought back McDonough, sorry, right? When they brought back McDonough, sorry. They took him from Nashville, gave Nashville cap space, and they traded away Sergeyev to Utah.

And it was kind of like, it just reminded me of that. They're like, we've had success. And then we went on hard times and they're like, now we got to bring that guy back. We didn't appreciate how much we lost when that guy came back. But like McDonough's 35. I almost felt like they had a side deal in place. Like we'll bring it back in a couple of years when we get our finances sorted out.

We'll send you to Nashville, stay there for a couple of years, and then we'll bring you back. Promise not to age. Yeah, just can you stay in some sort of chamber? I just feel that. I'm not bullish on these guys that's all that's that's my that's my point no no okay i think um if we're going down the narrative road there those are two conflicting narratives which is we're going to move on from someone you're also going to try and get the band back together those things don't jive they don't make sense i think mcdonough might have been

maybe like it was the easiest fit it made sense and he fit what they needed where stamkos didn't i mean i'm my thought on genzel remains the same for when i was leery about him signing here in vancouver when there was all the chatter that he might end up at vancouver canuck it feels like an awful lot of capital and term and risk for a guy that is getting closer to 30 and will be on the wrong side of it. And I know the JT Miller thing. I don't want to go down that road with the conversation. For Tampa Bay,

it really feels like a artificial shot in the arm for a team that is more on its way out than on its way up. Well, the guy's selling the team too. Don't you think that might have an impact? Yeah, I mean, Vinik said that... That was another thing that Coop has this big quote about, like, you know, nobody's going to leave, and then Stamko's left, and then the team's for sale. He's like, well, maybe some people will leave.

I think it's a very weird vibe, which you don't normally get out of Tampa Bay. When they were a cup contender and then eventually a cup champion, is you kind of understood how they were conducting their business, why they were conducting it, and you saw the patterns of all. Like, we made this move to make this move, and this guy fits here, and everything made sense. And now it's sort of like, like well the pieces don't really align and it does feel as though like you've got the remnants of a multiple stanley cup winner but you you've been you know whittled away

and whittled away and you're getting older yeah so you're getting older like Nikita Kucherov still a great player 31 years old Victor Hedman still a great player 33 years old I don't know like I you look at this roster and you think well they'll still make the playoffs because they got some really good players but that's not even Kucherov, Braden Point, Jake Gensel well I think they've got a better chance of making the playoffs than the Leafs do I'd push back on that why because I think they've got a better chance of making the playoffs than the Leafs do. I'd push back on that. Why? Because I think the Leafs have proof of concept with a team that's coming back almost in its state.

Oh, the Lightning don't have proof of concept? No! Steve Stamkos is gone. Right. Tons of guys are gone. Mikhail Sergachev's gone. Like, that's what I'm saying is there's no guarantees that Gensel comes in there and is just, okay, this is going to work.

Sometimes they don't. I think Sergachev was a disappointment for them overall. There's a reason he got traded. Sure. I'm saying is there's no guarantees that Gensel comes in there and is just, okay, this is going to work. Sometimes they don't. Sergeyev was a disappointment for them overall. And there's a reason he got traded. Sure. I don't think, I don't think he gave them as much as they thought he would. And now they're hoping.

Like he was good when he was young, but once they asked him to level up a bit, they were like, Oh, let me pivot. You can't let me pivot this conversation in another direction. I think what they've set themselves up for. And unfortunately is if it doesn't go right, they've got so much invested in the active roster

that the next inevitable change is behind the bench. That was going to be my hot take. That Koop will not be the head coach, not this season, but the following season. That's my hot take. This is John Cooper's final year as head coach of the Tampa Bay Lightning. Because they've created that environment.

Wittingly, no. This is what they've kind of built, is a team that's got expectations, has invested even more with the Gensel acquisition. They seem to be flailing just a tiny bit, and you're just not used to that from Tampa Bay. No. And that's what happens when you're hanging on to the past

and the vestiges of these cup winning teams. I mean, you got to remember just the volume of players that they've lost. Yeah. Right. And you can go. But they've still got really good ones. Sure.

But I think what is underscored is how hard it is to win a cup, how hard it is to win repeated cups, and is how hard it is to win a cup, how hard it is to win repeated cups, and how hard it is to keep these guys around. And you're talking about Coleman, Gord, Goodrow, Killorn, Palat, Stamkos. You can go down the list of very important contributors that leave year over year. And yet they've still got Kucherov, Braden Point, Anthony Sorelli, and Victor Hedman. Over a year. And yet they've still got Kucherov, Braden Point, Anthony Sorelli. Sure.

And Victor Hedman. And of course, they've got a pretty good goaltender in Andre Vasilevsky. And now they've got Zemgis Gergensens. Who's the coach on the hottest seat? I mean, it's got to be Sullivan. After the way last year ended. Let me throw one out, a name for you. Sure.

Andre Turingi. Okay. I don't even know if I'm pronouncing it right. You threw it out there regardless, but with confidence too. Yeah. He has been the head coach in Arizona for the past three seasons.

Now he did sign a contract extension, like I think it was last off season, but that was before the Coyotes were, they weren't sold. they were just like shut down and then i don't know they're in utah now right okay they're in utah they're in utah now um i just wonder if ryan smith the new owner is gonna just be watching him pretty closely right because you can't it's like it's like we had Don Waddell on earlier and he said, yeah, I came here and I basically said like,

this is Columbus. You guys have been a mess the last few years. This can't be acceptable. Like we can't have this as acceptable. If I'm the owner of Utah and I have lots of money, like I don't think budget should be in concern, then all of a sudden, even though I look at my roster and I have lots of money, like I don't think budget should be in concern, then all of a sudden, even though I look at my roster and I'm kind of like, this isn't a cup-winning roster,

you still just might want to get your own guy in there. Sure. You know? I would not disagree with that at all, because if I'm talking about the situational problems that John Cooper might have in Tampa Bay, I think the same situational problem, now a different type of situational problem,

but the situation in Utah is sometimes a fresh start isn't the best thing for a head coach because in this particular instance, it's not like they're an expansion team and it's not like he's going to be given a long leash to grow. He's been on the job. They want, you know, everything that you hear from people that cover Utah is they want to make a big swing.

They want to make an impact. They're going to have, I think they're going to honestly have similar vibes to Vegas where Vegas came into the market and took it by storm. And they want to try. No, no, no. Organizationally, they want to do that. They want to. Everyone wants to do that.

But they are more positioned. I just look at the roster and I'm like, you guys still aren'tally, they want to do that. They want to. Everyone wants to do that. But they are more positioned to do it. I just look at their roster and I'm like, you guys still aren't good. But they're not terrible. Like Sergei Chet. Well. They're not. That Arizona team last year was not terrible.

Okay. They were in the playoff chase. They were better than they were a couple years ago. Yeah. And part of that, I think, might have to do with the coaching because he actually did a pretty decent job considering how bad the active roster was. And the situation was very challenging as well.

That's tough, right? So I think, but at the same time, if it goes south, the easiest and most immediate, and this is not just a Utah thing. This is across the NHL. The easiest and most immediate change you can make is get the guy out from behind the bench and put somebody new in because we've seen it work in a variety of places, right? I mean, Bruce Boudreaux could go there and give him the Bruce.

Well, the GM could go too. Sure. Like there could be just this big house cleaning. They've had so much to do. It's almost like they're like, yeah, bring the hockey team over. We'll let you make a few, I don't know if you'd call it minor deals, but they are. They weren't massive deals to bring in Sergeyev. I mean, I don't know if you can call them minor deals, but they are. They weren't massive deals to bring in Sergeyev.

I mean, it wasn't massive. I don't consider him a number one defenseman in the NHL. It was a significant move. But if you're the owner, you're like, we don't even have time to design a logo. Yeah. Right? All this feels rushed. So, yeah, yeah, yeah, you guys come over, the GM, head coach, sure, sure, sure, sure.

You do your best, but we're probably going to fire you. On that subject, since we're talking about all these coaches, who are the next coaches up and ready, like the candidates right now? Because off the top of my head, I can think McClellan, because he was close to getting the job in Columbus before that kind of fell apart. And that was the punch, the kicker that I was going to have at the end that you stole from me. I was going to say Jay Woodcroft first,

and then I was going to say, and then there's Quenville. But it's Quenville. Right. And he's just – Let's just be at the top of your list, though. He's just hanging out there. And then in Utah, everyone's like, what happened with Quenville?

We haven't been following hockey at all. We're new to all this. And then Ryan Smith can be like, nothing. Nothing at all. Okay, before we go to break, I need to tell you about the BC Lions. The Roar is back at BC Place, and this weekend, Royal Athletic Park

for the BC Lions 70th season. Get your tickets now at bclions.com. 8 o'clock hour is on the horizon for the Halford & Brough Show on Sportsnet 650. Dan Robson is going to join us for a little footy talk, a little Canadian footy talk. He is the co-author of Atiba Hutchinson's new book, a memoir written, of course, by Atiba Hutchinson,

co-authored by Dan Robson. Remind me, because I will forget about this idea. We need to have, as the season grows nearer, we need to have a hot take day. Okay. Like when it's just, when it's us. Every day is a hot take day in my world. Well, I know that.

And one day one of them will come true. Nah, but I want to hear legit hot takes. Maybe this is a new thing we do on this show. We could freshen up this show, man. Let's be honest with you. We could freshen up a lot of things. Yeah. Fire a dog.

Yeah. Get rid of Laddie. Oh crap. He's here. He's right there. Sitting right here. Sorry, Laddie. Sorry about that.

Okay. Uh, Dan, Dan Robson is coming up next. We, we, we got an HR thing here. Oh, he's right there. I'm sitting right here. Sorry, laddie. Sorry about that. Okay. Dan Robson is coming up next. We've got an HR thing here. You're listening to the Alfred and Brup Show on Sportsnet 650.