Halford & Brough in the Morning - The Best of Halford and Brough 12/04/25

Episode Date: December 4, 2025

Mike & Jason look back at the previous day in sports, they discuss if the Canucks might trade Quinn Hughes this season, plus they talk some more 'Nucks update with Canuck Talk host & The Athletic Vancouver's Thomas Drance. This podcast is produced by Andy Cole and Greg Balloch. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

You're listening to the best of Halford and Brough. You're listening to Halford and Brough. I don't think there's going to be a Quinn Hughes for Dylan Larkin deal out there. I think that's actually crazy talk. Maybe it's a clean house time. Maybe it is. Maybe it's time. And I like Coach Tomlin.

The only history we're making is being the worst. Pittsburgh Steelers team statistically almost in the history of the organization. Good morning, Vancouver. Six o'clock on a Thursday. Happy Thursday, everybody. It is Halford and his brow at Sportsnet 650. We are coming you live from the Kintech Studios in Beautiful Fairview Slopes in Vancouver. Jason, good morning.

Are we the Steelers show now? Good morning. Adon. Good morning. Go Steelers. And Laddie, good morning to you as well. Slow News Day. Hello, hello.

Halford and Brough in the morning is brought to you by Sands and Associates. Score a debt freedom hat trick. One, no more interest, two, much lower payments than three. Financial peace of mind. Visit them online at Sands dash trustee.com. We are in hour one of the program. Hour 1 is brought to you by North Star Meta Recycling. They like steel.

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before the year runs out. Visit kintech.net. We've got a big show ahead on a Thursday. It's another four guester here on the Halford & Breft Show on Sportsnet 650. It's time now for the Duick Morning Drive. Our daily guest list brought to you by the Duick Auto Group. It begins

at 630. Ken Levick is going to join the program. He is the radio voice of Inter-Miamy. Boo! White Caps flew to Miami yesterday in advance of Saturday's MLS Cup final. We wanted to do a deeper dive on the opponent. We've done a lot of White Caps heavy stuff throughout the first few days of the week. So, Ken Levick, the radio voice of Inter Miami, I will not boo him prior to coming on the air. He's just doing his job.

He's going to join us at 6.30 to talk about Leonel Messi and company of what they've done lately. He's going to join us at 6.30. 7 o'clock, Luke Fox, NHL writer from Sportsnet. It's going to join the program. Five games in the NHL last night. Ten tonight will go around the league with Luke at 7 o'clock. 7.30, Brady Henderson, our Seahawks insider from ESPN. Seahawks back in action this Sunday, a 10 a.m. kickoff against the Falcons in Atlanta. Hawks are seven and a half point road favorites heading into this one.

Brady will break it all down for us at 7.30. 8 o'clock, it's the Drancer, Thomas Drans, Drans, from the Athletic Vancouver. and Canucks talk right here on SportsNet 650. Canucks back in action tomorrow, Friday, when they host the Utah Mammoth, lots to get into on and off the ice with Drancer. We'll do that at 8 a.m. Okay, this is going to take a while. We have three giveaways today on the show.

Three. At 7.30, we're giving away a $50 gift card to White Spot. At 8 o'clock, we're doing Halford & Brough's 12 days of Christmas. And at 8.30, we're giving away a pair of tickets. to see the Vancouver Giants in Portland Winterhawks Friday, December 5th at the Langley Events Center. 7.30, 8 and 8.30. I'll try and remind you as many times as I can during the show.

The phone number here is 604-280650. You have to be lucky calling number, caller number five every time, caller number five. We'll go through that throughout the show, but lots of giveaways in the holiday season from Halford & Brough. I'm not even going to go in reverse on the guest list. We got so much to get into. Without further ado, Laddie, let's tell everybody. what happened.

Hey, did you guys see the game last night? No. What happened? I missed all the action because I was... We know how busy your life can be. What happened? Missed it? You missed that?

What happened? What happened is brought to you by the BC Construction Safety Alliance, making safety simpler by giving construction companies, the best of tools, resources, and safety training. Visit them online at BCCSA.ca.ca. If you listen to yesterday's show, you'll know that a large chunk of a large chunk of of the final hour of the program was dedicated to an interesting bit of trade news, rumblings, rumors from Elliot Friedman, but the possibility of the Vancouver Canucks and the Detroit Red Wings potentially connecting on another trade,

having previously consummated the Philiparonic deal from a couple years ago. We played the audio. We went through Friege's clues live on the air. It was an interesting radio experience. Some say poor. Shortly after, Fridge went on this very station. to clarify his remarks. So I feel like we have to take this step by step to, in case anyone's not up to speed,

maybe we do need to get him to speed. Unfortunately, I have to throw you on the spot here. I think we need the audio from yesterday. They actually original Fridge clip, right? Because before we do any of this, we need to tell him what he was on the air, sort of clarifying, not necessarily apologizing, but clarifying for. Well, I think long story short is we thought that Fridge was suggesting that there could be a, if Quinn Hughes was traded to Detroit,

we thought that Fridge was talking about potentially Dylan Larkin coming back. Right. We won't play the audio. That's a pretty good synopsis. That's the long and the short of it. And then we were like, well, wait a minute. We started thinking and our brain started grinding. And we were like, is he... Because we were like, that doesn't make sense for anyone. Sure. Because Dylan Larkin is almost 30. That's not the type of player that the Canucks have said

they said they want to get younger and also he's got a full no trade clause and it just it doesn't it didn't seem like it made a lot of sense but then we were like well Fridge made it sound like it was super obvious the guy that they were talking about super it was super obvious the center that would come back from Detroit and then we were like I mean I guess they have you know had discussions about whether or not Dylan Larkin is the right guy for them to lead the team et cetera et cetera but then we came back and it's like it still doesn't make sense though so we were like well who is

because he made it sound like there was one obvious candidate right one obvious candidate and they're like well we got a couple we don't need to play the audio laddie but we were like well they've got a couple of young centers like Marco Casper and Nate Danielson who we were like he sounds like a quarterback

but he's actually a young center who the Canucks had had interest in in drafting so Fridge was like I have made a mistake. I made a huge mistake, and I'm going to go clean it up on Canucks Central with Sat and Bick.

Here's the audio from yesterday as we try and navigate the waters of a possible Quinn Hughes trade. Here's Fridge cleaning things up on the situation with Detroit. Well, you know what? That's the thing. Like, it was...

Like, I walked into a problem today, and it was my own fault. I don't blame anybody but myself. And I figured I'd better go on and calm this down because it was a crazy zone this morning with all the text I was getting. So I did an appearance today with Colby and John, and they were talking about, like, you know, guys who could be available for Quinn Hughes. And they were saying, you know, could Matt Vey Michkoff or Lucas Raymond be available for Quinn Hughes?

And I was like, I think that's a little much, guys. Like, I don't think you're going to see anything like this. And then I talked about, like, first of all, let me just say, I don't think anything's going on with Quinn Hughes right now. Like, I don't think there's any there yet. Like I've said many times, eventually I think there will be a conversation about it, but I don't think there's anything there right now. Anyway, you know, I started talking about how I do think Detroit will be a potential match if the time ever comes. and I really do believe that if the time ever comes

and you know I started talking about centers and the Red Wings fans are like he's talking about Larkin I was not talking about Larkin I don't think there's going to be a Quinn Hughes for Dylan Larkin deal out there I think that's actually crazy talk

but you know what I just figured I better come on and say where I think things are all right now and I can kind of calm everything down when the time comes or if the time comes yes, I do believe that I do believe that Detroit will be a player but I don't think it's going to be for like

Raymond or Larkin and we'll see but Detroit does have centers that I think could interest Vancouver. So that's kind of where it is and I was like I better just calm it down a little bit here. So the purpose of this exercise isn't to further analyze the Detroit situation.

We did that yesterday on the air as mentioned kind of a failed experiment but we move on. There's a bigger picture here and there's a larger narrative at play and it's December 4th. That's a very good point to make.

We can't do this every day. But now we're not doing it anymore. It's the other markets. Collective NHL media. All 31 other markets, maybe excluding Florida and Utah. They probably got other things to focus on. But let's say 20 plus.

are probably all looking at this and saying, the team is bottom three in the NHL. The president of hockey ops sent out a memo league-wide saying that the Reddit has shake things up. And this Hughes story, which was already out there, could further be intensified by the players perceived frustrations, body language on the ice. That clip went viral across the league.

And everyone knows his contract situation. So you put it all. together and you are looking, unless we forget that the Kinnock season is kind of cooked already. So a lot of the off-ice stories become far more intriguing than the on-ice ones. And you're looking at a, I don't know, two and a half, three-month odyssey journey of trade speculation, potential packages, things like that where a report is put out there and then has to be refuted. This is, this kind of is, I don't want to say staring into the abyss because that sounds too dark, but it feels like. like we're going to be doing a lot of this. It feels like the rest of the league is going to be doing a lot of this. Yeah, there's a couple of things to say here. Number one, it's not

the media's fault because it's what fans want to talk about. And I'm not talking about Canucks fans because they're probably like, I can't do this. But you know, I was thinking, you know those mailbags that all the writers want to do? They're like, it's, it's mailbag Monday. Get your question in. Right? What do you think a lot of those fans are asking their particular beatwriters right now? Could we get Quinn Hughes? Could we get Quinn Hughes? And what's it going to take? What would it take for whoever to get Quinn Hughes out of Vancouver?

And then, like, that's what they were doing with Friege, right? What would it take to get them out of there? Sure. I mean, and that's, and Fridge was just like, you know what, it might make a little bit of sense because the Red Wings have some centers. Sure. You know? So that's what you need if you want to talk to the Vancouver Canucks about anything pretty much.

You need centers. So that's what's driving this in a lot of cases. It's just people want to know. And the media are like, well, this will get eyeballs. So I'm going to write about it. The other one is, the other thought I had is, do the Canucks and Quinn Hughes come together and, say like we're not going to deal with this during the regular season or will the

Canucks push him to provide some sort of clarity before the trade deadline. I want to take you back a couple of years to when Elias Pedersen was a pending RFA and Elias Pedersen said I don't want to deal with this during the regular season. And he openly said I do not plan to a decision on this or anything, I don't even want to talk about this during the regular season. And people are like, okay, but that does give you a window to leave like Matthew Kachuk left out of Calgary. So what happened then? The Kinnock said, we're not letting it get to that. We're not letting it get to the offseason where you could potentially do that. You could potentially force your way out of town. Now, this is a different situation because

Hughes is a penning UFA. He's the captain of the team and Pedersen was a penning RFA. But the Canucks pushed very hard to get Elias Pedersen to the table to discuss his future. They are slightly different situations,

but there is an argument to be made that the Canucks could get a bigger return. It's an argument, some people disagree, could get a bigger return if they trade Quinn Hughes before this trade. deadline as opposed to waiting until the off season. So if they feel that, if they agree with that, do they force him in a way, lean on him

in a way to say, listen, like, you've got to give us some clarity. Because we want to keep you, but we feel that we could probably get more value out of a trade before the deadline as opposed to waiting as with the off season. I don't know, I'm not making an argument on either side of what's going to happen. It worked out really well for Peders, right? You know, like every, every party was happy with how it turned out, and everything's been great ever since. All I'm wondering is will there be some sort of statement from Hughes on, I'm not talking about this and I prefer to wait onto the off season to make a decision and I'm not going to tell the Canucks anything? Yeah.

And will, or will the Canucks say something like, we're okay with that? Because, man, this isn't, this isn't, this isn't good, but it's also like we have to talk about it. Because, you know, like, DPD was sent down to the HL. He was. Yesterday. Played last night. So he played last night. Now he could be called up again.

Most likely will. For Friday's game against Utah. But in a normal season, we'd be like, hmm, that's interesting. They've got this young defenseman that they're pretty excited about. I wonder what they were thinking, sending him down to the H.L. And we would have been watching closer. how is Elias Pedersen playing anyway? Like, is he doing well?

Yeah. Well, let's go into his numbers. Let's talk about it. What will be the best, what are the best pairings right now for the Canucks on defense? Things normal teams do, right? He played with Victor Mancini last night.

That news was just like, yeah, yeah. Anyway, because it's tough to focus on stuff that seems when there's just big, big picture issue going on, focusing on the little stuff does seem like, you know, like, oh, okay, you're going to focus on the rearranging of the deck chairs on the Titanic. I mean, that's what it is. So Rick from Colonna texts in Dunbar Limer Text Line 650, 650. Do you think Rutherford regrets that PD Convo?

I'm glad you brought up the idea of Rutherford and regret because I'll go to a more immediate potential regret. And that was sending out this memo, what, a week? and a half ago across the NHL and then having nothing to come of it and I know trades don't just get consummated like that although in some cases they do and with a guy with as much experience

and as a trade history as Jim Rutherford maybe you would have expected more it's going to be hard to unring the bell now I think like you're talking about maybe they'll go to Hughes and they'll say do you just want to shut this down entirely and no more talk about it my answer to that would be like how much talk has there been about it Hughes is barely addressed it

And the Canucks haven't really addressed it. But everyone knows the situation. They are coming home now, though, right? They're going to have to have some home media. Sure. But the genie's out of the bottle and the cat's out of the bag and the bell's been rung. I don't know if you can undo any of those. The president of hockey ops has acknowledged that the current plight of the team is dire.

And they're looking to make moves to change it up. Now, every insider that we've had on the show has said most teams have responded and said, well, let's not talk about your pending UFAs. let's talk about Hughes. And they're like, we're not ready to do that yet. That's the conversation, though. Well, if not now, when? And, you know, saying you're not going to talk about publicly is great,

and it's probably a nice deflection for, I don't know, a handful of months. But we've done this long enough. We've worked in the industry and the business long enough. If something's out there and the fire is burning and there's interest between fans clamoring and reporters digging, it's going to be a story. So do you try and do the old ostrich head in the sand or hide under a pile of coats to ignore it?

I don't think it's possible. The inbox is as scattered as the Canucks seem to be. And I think that's another issue going on right now. People actually don't know what to talk about. They don't know what, there is no consensus on, what to discuss and how to discuss it because some people are texting in with trade proposals for Detroit and we're like yeah we kind of said like we don't want to go down that road right now

because if there isn't a trade to do with Detroit then there's a bunch of other teams where you can do it right like don't get hung up on Detroit if they're not willing to put in a good return then fine they don't get them but then there's this whole and then you bounce around to well wait a minute are they going to trade them anyway? You know, some people are still like, is there any way we can keep them? And then we get this text from Graham from Hardy,

and I'm not blaming you for this Graham, but like this is how scattered Canucks fans' brains are right now. He's like, morning guys, maybe I've missed it because I've become apathetic towards the Canucks, but why are we not talking about trading Petey more than trading Hughes? And you're kind of like, Graham, we can't, I can't, I don't have the bandwidth for this

right now. The texts are just all over the map. There's texts that come in and they're like well, you know, instead of trading Hughes, why don't they look at management and maybe new management would create a better

atmosphere for Quinn Hughes here and then other people are like, sell the team, you know? Like it's just it's all over the map and we can't provide clarity because we don't know what's going on, which brings me to the idea of could the Canucks call a press conference and make a statement or something? Do they, are we at that point

where they, where they need to do that? Where, you know, they've sent a memo to the rest of the NHL and we're kind of like, well, we don't even know specifically what that memo said. You know, everyone says, oh, it was about the pending UFA. It's from my understanding. It was just about we're willing to talk about our veterans and they weren't specific like I don't even think there are any names in that memo they were just like give us a ring which is why people called back and said what are you doing

with Quinn Hughes? Yeah the banner at the press conference operation keep Quinn happy is cross status as operation we're not trading Quinn Hughes this is how far we've gone the shirts Mike Theorologist from I will turn my attention to we're not trading Quinn Hughes shirt We can do that yeah Mike Theorologist from Brockville texts in and he starts his text out perfectly

says brough is right. I don't even know what to text in at this point and I usually have an endless stream of thoughts about the Canucks that I text in. I mean, if you want to look at a big picture, this is the result of an organization that maybe, maybe makes it up as they go along. That when you don't have a firm and resolute plan

and you kind of act on instinct or you're reactive instead of proactive, this is what you get. I've worked at places before where you're constantly, constantly changing the direction, the narrative, the idea, because you don't really know what you want to be or what you're doing. And so you're talking about this.

Now there's an idea out there of maybe we should hold a press conference to silence this whole thing. And I understand that you have to be reactive in the moment. Because, you know, Fridge has this line he always utters. He's like, you plan God laughs. Yeah. And I get that. You can't dictate and plan and map out every single instance.

But there is something to be said for having a little bit more of a roadmap instead of just kind of winging it and seeing what might happen. And understanding that all of your actions, big, small or otherwise, are going to have consequences, right? Unintended sometimes. So when you send out a memo saying we're open for business, call us about our veterans, the unintended consequence

is probably going to be people might not call about the guys that you're thinking and might just go directly to the one prize that everybody really wants, right? The other thought I had about that memo, by the way, too, is like, you know, and the guys were talking about it on the station yesterday and made a good point.

The Canucks always seem to not give any consideration to what other teams may want. And I know they're in charge of the Canucks, right? Like, follow me through on this. With Kiefer Sherwood, there's a lot of teams that are like, yeah, we like Kiefer Shirwood, but I don't know if we want them now.

Right. You know, because what, there's a reason a lot of people like to wait to the trade deadline is because injuries happen. Yeah. You know? And maybe you have to address something else where you don't want to,

you know, come out of your boots to land Kiefer Shurwood in December. when your needs might be different around the trade deadline but the Canucks are like well we're ready to talk but here's the thing is that what there

was that the idea behind it because the more that I think about the more than I wonder if this is an old school motivational tactic from Rutherford I think it might have been a little bit of both

but what I think it might have been was them trying to go like you know here's here's Kiefer Sherwood in thinking you might get this like big hall sure and and I think you know And Dollywall has hinted this as well.

You know, making guys like they're veterans. And it wasn't just the pending UFAs. Putting a guy like Connor Garland out there might have been them thinking maybe that's how we can get a center. Yeah, and that's fine. But the unintended consequences of it now are you had Sherwood on the road trip

getting asked by a reporter Ian McIntyre who was embedded. If this is going to be your final game as a Kentucky, lo and behold, guess what's happened in the aftermath? Sherwood's gone seven straight games without a goal he had a rather noticeable

low ice time against Colorado played just over 15 minutes and I think the inevitable was that his shooting percentage was going to regress back to the mean and it has. Now, did one cause the other? Who's to say?

Is Sherwood distracted by the fact that his name got dangled out there at the beginning of December when he was, you know, previously in negotiations to stay of Vancouver Can I? I don't know. But it's all part of

the consequences of your actions. Derek and the Ridge we'll move on after this because this is a good text. The one consensus from the fan base is that the fan base is not talking about the day-to-day operations of the team. Fans don't

care who they play tomorrow or any team in the next coming weeks. They want to know the organizational plan going forward. Trade, signing, etc. are the focus of the fan base. Yeah, I mean, I was going to mention like Utah is coming into town on Friday and last night Utah absolutely blew the doors

off Anaheim wasn't a good night for the California team that California trip we we overstated how difficult it is to go down there Utah beat Anaheim in Anaheim 7-0 and the Washington capitals beat the San Jose Sharks 7-1 that was watching a bit of that game of I think it was 4-0 Washington in the first period it was 7-0 they got a um San Jose got a Not in the first period. No, no, no. That's what I meant. But it was almost on track to be two seven-nothing wins for the visitors in California.

But then Pavel Regenda, I don't even know if that's how you pronounce his name, but he scored Power Play goal late in the third period to make it 7-1. I watched that Habs Jets game. That was a really good game. The Habs end up winning it 3-2 in a shootout. Another loss for the Jets, but a much better performance from the Jets. Compared to that loss in Buffalo that they had. You know how we talk about

Will Bedard and Celebrini Make Team Canada Who is more likely to make Team Canada Badard or Celebrini? I was having that thought during the Habs Jets game Will Suzuki and Shifley Make Team Canada Who is more likely to make Team Canada

Suzuki or Shifley? Because neither of them were on the Four Nations team And they both responded after the Four Nations that got hot and they've kind of stayed hot. Shifley scored again last night. I think Suzuki goes over Shifley. I think Suzuki is the perfect 3-4C for that team.

And I think part of it is... Couldn't Shifley be, though? Like, I'm with you. I would probably take Suzuki over Shifley. But it would feel really unfair to Shifley. Because you still have a great year, you know? No, if he gets snubbed again, you're kind of left asking, like, what more could I possibly do? I think Suzuki's a little more positioned to be a guy that if he's going to play 12 minutes and in a more defensive role.

I think he's a little better suited for it. Not to say that sheafely isn't, but. Like, is Seth Jarvis going to make the team, you know? Like, it's the guys like that. They love Jarvis, though. Yeah, I think we all know that Travis Kineckney is not going to make the team, right? Like, he's the one guy that's like pretty sure Kineckney's not going to make the team. Tom Wilson feels like a lock now.

Everyone's acting like the ice that they're going to play on over in Italy is going to be like five by five or something like that. It's just a little smaller. It's still cool. It's just a little smaller, that's all. You're listening to the best of Halford and Brough. You're listening to the best of Halford and Brough.

To the phone lines we go, Thomas Drance joins us now on the Halford & Bruff show on Sportsnet 650. What up, Drancer? Gentlemen, good morning. Good morning, Drancer. Do you think we'll get a body language question after practice today? Yeah, I mean, probably.

And it's fair. That play was pretty tough. Like, it was tough. But, you know, I feel bad about it from the perspective of, like, I won't be at practice today, most likely, just because I'll be on air. But the, you know,

I feel like you get one. You know, I feel like you get one moment like that. Sure. And you don't get multiple. You know, it was a bigger deal for, you know, a previous Canucks Center, for example, because there were examples of it often if you were paying attention, right? Like, it wasn't isolated when it happened. There was a lot of moments where you could see a guy who was, you know,

like sort of coaching on the ice or just doing stuff that, isn't common, right? Like the pointing on the penalty kill, the pulling a goalie when the coach hasn't signaled, stuff like that was like commonplace. So when it happened and drew national attention, like when it really happened, it was like, yeah, well, this is sort of a constant state for this. With Quinn Hughes, we don't see this much. And that makes it more notable.

That's what makes it more notable to me, right? Like, we don't see this very much. I feel like makes it more like more understandable or at least like something that's like yeah if it's just you get one you know like you get one where you've been on a road trip and you've been playing 30 minutes a game and you know you're counted on to lead both the offensive and the defensive effort and for like the third time all game you've been like up ice and your teammates have have failed to get the puck to you when you've got space or I have even failed to make just like a baseline responsible play

and you smack your stick slightly into the ice and you're just like, come on! Yeah. And have a moment. To me, that's not, to me, that's not the same, right? Like, to me, that's not an example of, like, volatility. Transter, for me, for me, it's, like, I know I've seen a lot of people that have reacted very angrily to the play, like,

get this guy out of here, trade him. For me, it's not, I'm not making a judgment on Quinn Hughes's character. And Halford and I even said, like, if we were on this team, our character would be questioned multiple times because our work rate at times would be inconsistent.

I think the observation... My fitness. Oh, boy. Well, I mean, my fitness would not. I'd be you levy in the corner or training camp. but I think it's less than a judgment on Quinn Hughes it's more like a damn they even got to Quinn Hughes because Hughes

let's talk about last season where he has such disappointment in missing the Four Nations due to injury and frankly it looked like he was playing injured I don't know most of the season maybe not most of the season but a lot of it never never

we never had shifts like that. So for me, it's more just a, it's just like, I don't know, I, I think it has to be pointed out. And there are some people that will say, like, oh, this is just Canucks Media, you know, picking on a guy, oh, and they're going to run this guy out of town too. No, don't put that on us, because we are just trying our best to observe what's going on with this team and for me that is the most stark thing that happened on this road trip because really who cares about the results at this point well and it's like it's not common then right like it's not you know I know there's a sense that you are more exposed in these intense hockey

markets or everyone's watching every game but you know those those moments are a big deal and you don't see them that often night to night across the league. And so I think you will be asked. I don't think it's an unfair question, but I do think there's an element to which I just regret it because I don't see this as being telling about his character in any way. What I do see it being telling of is just like what the level of frustration, perhaps even resignation,

is beginning to set in with this team, right? And look, it sucks. Like, I think there's a lot of good players on this team, right? Like, as much as I will say, like, I haven't believed that this core could combine and win, right? It hasn't been because I don't think they've got it. It's because I don't think there's enough of them, right? Like, that's always been my issue. In fact, I think there's a lot of guys, like, Brock Besser, is Brock Besser a star

top line winger? Like, no, he's not. I think he's more in that sort of Tyler to Foley level guy Right? Right? Which is not bad He's a good player No it's a good awesome player You can have a guy like that

Playing big minutes for a team that You know is as good as Colorado Right And I think you get the added benefit On a guy like Brock Besser That he's like wildly clutch Like for whatever reason His heart doesn't pump as fast as your average person

In big moments And that's sick Like, that's cool. And I wish he'd had way more opportunities to show that on, you know, in huge games across the course of his career. But this team hasn't been good enough. And, you know, like, could it have been good enough if Brock Bessor was Mika Randen? Like, sure. But like, come on.

That's not a fair expectation, right? There's a lot of good players on this team. There's never been enough good players on this team. and over the years I think because this organization is trended to be poor directionally and I think partly too is struggled to evaluate character

you know I don't think there's been I just don't think there's been enough opportunities for guys to grow into the sorts of leadership roles where that would be prevented or you know this team spent a lot of time in years

propping up and suggesting that a guy who had moments like that regularly was like this iconic leader for the franchise or, you know, on and on down the line. And it's like all of this, you know, bad planning, lack of talent, no direction, tolerating this stuff for year over year, not retaining TANF, not, you know, like on and on down the line, right? Choosing a Miller over Horvat, right? And then, like celebrating in arena guys who said that it's just like on and on

it's just a whole it's just a whole toxic mess Transor can I say something? I was very proud of you earlier in the week because you said something very mature you said you looked back on an opinion

you had as a guy in his 20s maybe and you said you know that that young guy who thought he knew it all was wrong and the topic was character and how important character is for an organization and and I'm with you because I remember when there would be conversations about a team's culture and I'd be like is it the culture or is it the fact you don't have good players right you know and sometimes sometimes culture was thrown out there as like that's a culture problem I was like yeah I remember

that would always be the thing with the oilers. And I'd be like, is it a culture problem or is it the fact that you don't have a true one C? And then you get a guy like McDavid and you're kind of like, wow, that made a difference. But I also think that McDavid brings and Drysidal too, they bring culture. And the special players in the NHL,

and I think we just saw one from Nathan McKinnon, yes. They mean everything to an organization. Yeah. Well, and, you know, Nathan McKinnon's an interesting guy, right? Like, he's hard driving, right? Like, there is a culture that comes with Nate that's not easy to tolerate, right? That, like, needs to be reined in. But they also have Landisog who does exactly that, right? And he's so vital to that group because he's the guy who can tell Nate to back off when Nate's, like, getting after someone for eating a cookie. Usually Nikita Zodora. It's just like that's, but that's part of it, right? You put it all together. I mean, Nate's McKinnon's different because he's got some of that Jordan wiring, right? Like he's a jerk, right, in a way that propels a team, and that's a little bit different from...

He looks so nice in the tall and all ads, but I think he is quite... Yeah, at least he's helping people. But, yeah, no, and look, I mean, that's an opinion that... as you've been around and had a chance to cover people in this league and hear about people in this league and meet people in this league, right? Like the quality that some of these folks have, right, is, and look, let me give you another example of, like, it's not just about one guy, it's also sometimes the guy who reigns them in, right? Like one concern that existed when I was down in Florida, right? internally, like I'm talking, hockey ops people, had this concern internally that Barkov was too nice, too deferential, didn't have that killer instinct, et cetera, et cetera. And we've now seen

him win two consecutive Stanley Cups, right? And be just like an absolute blanket over the best player we've seen in 30 years in, on the biggest stage in consecutive years, right? I mean, there's no one questioning that today. And, you know, As much as I think Barkoff probably has grown into as he's, you know, aged, more of a killer, I also think it mattered that they got Matthew Kachuk. Yep. Right? Like I also think there's an element where, you know, like it's okay to have a guy who is your best

player and is just this like special, special person who builds everyone around him up, right? And that's hugely important, but you also still need more, right? You still need. And it can't come from a fourth. line player, right? Like, it has to come from one of your best players, and it has to come from a guy who always does the right stuff, right? Because you can't be pointing on the penalty kill and then a goal goes right, you know, puck goes right through the seam or giving up on a play on the back check, like, you're doing that. If you then go into the room and try and tell people

like, we've got to shape up, we've got to, you know, pull our heads out of our, you know where, everyone rolls their eyes. Who are you talking about? The standard is so high in terms of, you know, what leadership means to a guy with a $30 million guaranteed contract. Like, obviously, as it should be, these guys have seen everything. They've, they're immensely talented. And there's an enormous amount of talent on this Canucks team, flat out. But for whatever reason, and I don't think it's like,

is this team struggling because they have a culture issue, or are they struggling because they've fallen beneath a baseline level of functionality down the middle? and don't seem to have an organized game plan night to night that permits them to have a shot at controlling play. Yes to all those questions. Yes to all of them. Like it is everything.

But it's more, right, the lack of center functionality. Sure. Man, do they miss Rick Tock, in my opinion. Okay, I want to expand on that, actually, because we talked about this yesterday. I was listening to the post game show after the Colorado game and sat and bick were kicking around the idea of if this conducts team does

any one thing particularly well and then there was this long awkward pause and I was like I think I know the answer to this and then it turned the conversation's attention back to Adam foot like they could have a bottom third

roster in terms of talent I also think like and I hate throwing the guy under the tracks like this but like they might have bottom third level coaching in terms of when you were going to point to something that they do well and you can't find anything

that has to reflect poorly on the coach. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for me, gentlemen, there's just like, you know, and this is a numbers take. So this was something my young 20s self would have liked about it.

But there's a level at which if your results fall beneath a certain baseline, that shouldn't be doable in the NHL 5 on 5 with even like a rebuilding roster, right? Like even the depths of the Chicago roster. Sure. That begins to spark my interest, right? That begins to shine a light on a head coach.

And I call this the Greg Cronin Doug Weight Test. Like how bad? How bad a coach can you really be here? The numbers. Well, and it's just like, are we surrendering 32 plus shots against per hour while not generating 25 of our own right like that's to me the test that's like a really tough place to be and you know again we that there were seasons where like Chicago wasn't well coached and was undermanned and didn't generate those results right like there are there have been

some grisly like there were grisly under talented willie de jordan and Travis green seasons in Vancouver that didn't generate those types of results right and And, you know, the Canucks have been there this season. And so it's only 27 games. I like to wait 30 before I declare it. But when you start to produce those results as a team, that's always something that I pay attention to and tend to think might be strategic. Like, because, again, we, we have 20 years of data, right?

And we have, like, the Ted Nolan Buffalo Sabres. Like, we have lots of bad teams that we've seen across those 20 years. Yeah, once you start to produce results that you shouldn't be able to produce with a group of 23 NHL players, that to me is when I start to go like, hey, coaching might be part of the issue here. So what numbers do you look at and which site are they, are these public numbers? Because I'm a, I'm a natural statric guy. Yeah, me too. You know, and so what do you look at? Like, if you were, if you were to go to compare numbers, take us through like a Drant's day where he's on his laptop and he goes to natural statric. Do you go to like the teams column and then do you look at rates? What do you look at scoring?

Do you look at scoring chances, high, high danger? What do you look at? No, I don't use any of those carcinogenic Russian numbers that are based off of location data. That's not of interest to me. Okay. Because I don't trust it, right? So I have access to some proprietary stuff to capture that. And then so I'll use for if I really want.

want to get into scoring chances or or high danger stuff, right? That's stuff where I'll lean on proprietary data. But the natural stat trick, I look at shot attempts and I look at shots and that's really what I'm mostly focused on. You guys will remember when I was, maybe you'll remember, I don't know, but when I was early in my career, me and Cam Chiron over at Canucks Army,

we used to count scoring chances for every Canucks game and collect that data over the course of multiple seasons. We did it for three and a half years or like three years plus the lockout shortened season. So four seasons. Yeah, it was a good hobby for you. It was fun. Honestly, and it helped differentiate what we were doing. It was worthwhile.

And then at the end, right, of every season, we'd sort of correlate like, how did our numbers match shot attempt data? And it was identical, right? Like, it was like, truly there was no purpose to what we were doing. We could have just fun. looked at shot at this was a complete waste of time but but i mean it wasn't it still gave us more uh information to work off of in a variety of different ways and and on and on but the truth is is that shot it like the teams that out attempt out shoot and the teams that outchew

and as a general rule if you stick within that and and abide by that general rule like you know that's why when people are like well you're not looking at as high danger scott the scoring chances. It's like, yeah, no, but I am. Like, just look at the big picture and you'll get the small picture too almost always in hockey. So, yeah, I mean, that's what I'm looking at. And, you know, for what I'm saying about this test, it's just shots, four shots against, like the easiest stuff. And then the last thing is, once we get past about the 30 game mark, you are better off just looking at goals, right? It takes a while for goals to reflect true talent, but once it does, it's actually a better predictor of team quality going forward.

So, like, you know, at the end of the day, if you're able to, if you're a 45% coursey-4 team that's, you know, controlling 55% of goals for and you manage to sustain that for 30 games, all of a sudden it's like you might just be doing something that works. Or your special teams are unbelievable, or in the case of Minnesota, you've got amazing goal-tending. Well, yeah, I'm always looking at 5-on-5, right? Like, I'm always looking at 5-on-5.

So that's sort of where I land, and that's kind of the base level and then I'll get deeper into various things which I won't bother walking our audience through it but in terms of like just basic team evaluation at least the numbers stuff because the other part of this is like I'm not just looking at these numbers

and being like I understand these teams right like I'm watching an embarrassment of hockey so that's the other part So Drancer how many teams in the NHL right now have with the numbers that you believe are important how many teams have worse numbers than Vancouver like I wonder if San Jose is there

I know they've had some good results but they're roughly there yeah San Jose yeah and San Jose you know I like there's a lot to like about their young talent and Ascarov and on and on

their blue line is a disaster their blue line I mean Timothy will do you see the Ryan Leonard backhand goal last night yeah that wasn't well played defensively that was not well played by Timothy Lilacrin like that was brutal

but let's not take away anything from how cool Ryan Leonard is right now. Yeah, Ryan Leonard is very good. He is so sick. Yeah. One of my favorite watches at the moment. But yeah, I mean, that's, I think, and I also would add, like, the San Jose Sharks had a game against the Avalanche two weeks ago that the Avalanche,

or not even like a week ago, where the Avalanche beat them 6-0. Yeah. And there was, there was like a 3-0, the Aves score a 3-0 goal, and Morsovsky sort of answers with the Ryan Reeves line. and the abs win the drawn immediately go and it's 4-0. Yeah, that was the one Celebrini said, we got waxed

which is a great word. But also it's like it's 2-0-0 then it's 3-0 and then like in a blink of an eye it's 4-0 with with one bad sort of you know coaching lineup change sort of impacting that and that was a moment for me where I was like watching it and I was like Ryan Worsovsky's going on

my may not pass the right guys are on the right ice at the right time test right? Like this is something that I'm going to start monitoring over the course of the next couple of years. Like that was to me, it was such a big red flashing light indicator. And if that seems absurd, like that's that's sort of what hockey is.

Those are the sorts of the things that if I covered the team, I would have been, you know, ranting about on the radio here right, the next day. And monitoring is like a bad process indicator, right? Because I'd have been fairer, frankly,

to the team that I cover than I would be to a team that I'm just watching. you know play 10 times a year right so but yeah i mean i think there's some issues in san jose i don't think that's a team with staying power um but you know other than that like if you look at the score adjusted stuff which you should um you know the conucks the canucks have the juice to be in this tanking battle right like i don't really see even with heidel and demco back um i don't think this team is much better than the 27th place team right i mean this road trip's a good example, they get three points. They shot 11.5% at 5-on-5, right?

Like, they had 930 goaltending across this contest. The game they won in Anaheim, right, they gave up 40 shots. They were outchanced 2 to 1, and they score on a double deflection, right? Like the game in LA that they get another point out of, they probably deserved one goal if that game had lasted for 300 hours based off of what they generated, right? Like this road trip was worse than the results. And that's kind of been a trend for this team. Like this team's 30th in the NHL and they feel kind of fortunate to be there given some of the results that they've had.

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