Halford & Brough in the Morning - We Try To Make Brough Cry On His First Day Back

Episode Date: July 17, 2024

In hour two, Mike & Jason talk a little Blue Jays post MLB All Star Game with Sportsnet's Zach Worden (3:00), they discuss the Mount Rushmore of sad Canucks moments (15:00), plus they chat some 'Nucks with Canucks Talk host & The Athletic Vancouver's Thomas Drance (27:00). This podcast is produced by Andy Cole and Greg Balloch. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

Wait a minute. This bar doesn't have a fire exit. Enjoy your death trap, ladies. I can't believe I found this song. 703 on a Eurodance Wednesday here on the Half an Abrupt Show on Sportsnet 650. This is a good pull. I found the song they used in the scene.

The deepest of deep cuts. Can you confirm that it's the exact song? We looked up the clip and it's the exact same song. Oh, very good. So the Simpsons was using unlicensed music? Yes. They too are cheap. That's awesome.

Yes. You are listening to the Halford & Brough Show. We are in hour two of the program. Zach Worden, MLB writer and Jays writer for Sportsnet.ca is going to join us in just a moment here. Halford & Brough in the morning is brought to you by Vancouver Honda. Vancouver's premier destination for Honda customers. They have a friendly, knowledgeable staff that can help with anything you're looking for,

sales, financing, service, or parts. We are in Hour 2 of the program, as mentioned. Hour 2 is brought to you by Primetime Craft Beer. Meticulously brewed for quality and taste, Primetime is full flavor without compromise. Get some at a liquor store near you or visit the brewery to see how it's made. We are coming to you live from the Kintec studio. Kintec, Canada's favorite orthotics provider.

Powered by thousands of five-star Google reviews. Sore feet, what are you waiting for? Kintec, that's what you're waiting for. To the phone lines we go. Zach Worden joins us now on the Halford & Brough Show on Sportsnet 650. Morning, Zach. How are you? Good morning, fellas. How are you doing? I'm doing well, thanks. We are good as well. Thanks for taking the time to do this. So let's start with the MLB All-Star game. Pretty good one last

night. American League comeback victory 5-3 over the NL. Lots of takeaways. Mine was that Mason Miller threw a 103 mile an hour pitch, which I didn't think was humanly possible, but here we are. Curious to get your thoughts on the game last night. I thought it was a pretty good game really nice for the fireballers Paul Skeens kind of looked the part as the NL starter Mason Miller as you mentioned throwing heat there and just kind of mowing down

through Shohei Otani, Trey Turner some of the better hitters on the National League I think it was you know we've kind of seen the all-star game maybe slow down in the past few years so it was pretty cool to see the likes of Shohei Otani step up and kind of getting some of these pitchers like the Skeens and some of the AL guys throwing really well towards the end of the game there as well.

On the Blue Jays' front, Vladimir Guerrero Jr. started for the American League. That's four all-star appearances now at the tender age of 25, grounded into a fielder's choice, grounded out again in the fourth. So trade deadline is at the end of this month. Vladdy's on a bunch of the lists that are out there on the internet about guys that could be traded, but it doesn't sound like he'll be traded. Is this the song and dance that we're going to keep doing

until the trade deadline passes, Zach? Yes. I think there's going to be a lot of Vladimir Giroud Jr., a lot of Bobachet conversations, and I think when all's said and done, both of them are going to be Toronto Blue Jays on August 1st,

and it's going to have been a lot of wasted oxygen, a lot of waste words when things kind of come and go as the trade deadline, but I think it is going to be interesting just to kind of see how the Blue Jays

approach those conversations and if they do decide to go ahead and move some of their guys with term. I think that obviously the decision has been made that they're going to move off their pending free agents and now it just kind of has to be evaluating the club where it's at for 2025 and then how they feel about some of their pitchers.

Probably more Bo Bichette than Vladimir Guerrero Jr. I think has better odds of being moved at this deadline, but I do think it's very unlikely that either of them will be moved at all. If they do decide to move guys with term, I think it'll be more kind of the Chris Bassetts, Kevin Gossman, like those types that they will decide to move off now. And if it is Vladimir Guerrero Jr. and Bo Bichette that are traded, that'll be kind of more

of an off-season conversation. Which one between Bichette and Guerrero do you think wants to stay in Toronto? Yeah, I mean, Vladi's been saying it a lot recently. It seems like he's ready to get something done. It's going to be a very intriguing

couple of months, I think, if they do keep him at this deadline and just kind of see where an extension could possibly go. I think it'll be the conversation for them to find common ground with him is going to be very difficult because does he value himself as a Matt Olsen

type, as a really good first baseman in baseball who is maybe not kind of on the franchise altering level scale as much as like some of the the younger stars in the league who got paid like 300 million dollars like the Fernando Tatisas uh the Julio Rodriguez's I mean if he values himself there are the Blue Jays willing to to go that far and give him that much money when the on-field play, I mean, it's been really good this year, but it hasn't been on the level of some of the younger stars who have already earned those $300 million paydays.

Where is Beau Bichette's career right now? Oh, it's an interesting one. The second half for him, I think, is probably the most important of any player on the Blue Jays if he does end up staying at the trade deadline just based on him needing to kind of get back on track and earn himself a better contract, especially when it comes to, you know, whether it's in Toronto or not in Toronto. I think this second half is going to be really big for him

to gain momentum going into his platform season. And the way that it's gone this year has not been very, very good for him at all i think that the numbers are weird because he hasn't gotten the on-field results but the stuff kind of under the hood shows that he's been the same hitter that he's always been which i think is very concerning for for for him for sure because it's not like he's changed all that much as to how he's approaching his at-bats or what he's doing in the box so um if teams are going to give him a big contract as well it's it's got to be scary to to look at the way this

season has gone and know that you know that there is a chance that based on him like there's there's no signs there's no easy fix for him to getting back to the hitter that he was early in his career and if you were ready to give him like 200 million dollars you probably want to see him at least have some of the on-field results like he did have earlier in his career so explain what you what you mean like what's the conclusion that you could draw by what you just said there yeah it's it's interesting because you know sometimes you'll see guys have their their quality of their contact fall off or they'll start to chase more or they'll just kind of significantly change their approach to the plate. But like, I mean, he's always been a really free swinger, which he has continued doing

this year. He has kind of, you know, maybe he's been looking to do a little bit more damage this year, I think, which has kind of taken away from his ability to kind of be like, you know, the American League leader in hits. And I'm just kind of the guy that's always on base and putting up tough at bats. But just the way that he's gone about it, like this he's swinging as much as he ever has. He's chasing as much as he ever had.

He's hitting the ball generally as hard as he ever has. So there isn't exactly necessarily necessarily an easy way to look at it and say, well, he just needs to stop chasing, or he just needs to swing more, or he needs to swing less. There's not really that easy fix in there. So you kind of look at that, and I mean, there's players in the past who have kind of

had the same thing happen, like Chris Bryant in Chicago is kind of the same way, where he didn't significantly change anything about the way that he was approaching at bats, or anything about the way that he was approaching at bats or significantly changed the way that he was hitting the ball or the way that he was swinging and just kind of the results fell off. So it's just kind of scary because there isn't an answer, which I think is kind of the most concerning part about the way that Boveshet's season has gone.

We're speaking to Sportsnet's Zach Worden here on the Halford & Brough show on Sportsnet 650. After Teoscar Hernandez won the Home Run Derby the other day, Zach, Jamie and I, the other co-hosts here, were talking about, not necessarily the one that got away, but how the Jays were fundamentally altered

after they moved on from Teoscar and Lourdes Gurriel Jr. In part because they lost a bit of their fun and a bit of their likability. And I always wonder about likability quotients or lack thereof in the case of this Jays team. And there's one thing to be an underachieving team wins and loss wise, but especially in Toronto

with how at times unlikable the Maple Leafs have become. And now this Jays team, I'm wondering with the fan base, is there more to the unrest this year than the underachieving in the win-loss column? Is it because maybe they don't necessarily either play as fun or look like they're having as much fun, or quite frankly, just aren't as likable as Jays teams of years past? I think so. I think it mostly maybe comes down to the brand of baseball that they play,

where you really lean into the, the, the pitching and defense thing. And now the pitching has kind of gone away. The defense is still been fine, but just the way, like if, if your team is losing and they're hitting 500 foot home runs or hitting,

you know, four or five home runs a game, like, I mean, obviously it's still frustrating because they're losing, but at least there's a little bit of fun and, and just in the, in the way that they play. But the way that this team plays where it feels because they're losing, but at least there's a little bit of fun and just in the way that they play.

But the way that this team plays, where it feels like they're just scrapping to score like three or four runs and hoping that that gets them enough to win, I think that that has kind of played into the fact with just maybe how unlikable it is or maybe just how, in general, I think maybe it's just not a fun watch for fans

to watch this team play, especially when they're losing and i mean it's not i i don't think that the players themselves are unlikable it's just you know like when when you have a teoscar hernandez or lord israel jr who look like they're having fun um almost all the time like it it helps your um enjoyment as as a viewer basically being able to watch these guys who look like they're enjoying being out there. And sometimes I think with, with this blue Jays team, it looks like they don't necessarily enjoy being there sometimes. And I think that really,

really plays a factor into it for sure. Cause I worked a watch party event for the Jays Mariner series. And it was interesting that Jamie and I were talking about hosting it and watching these games in great detail and the, the games themselves were close and and they had good finishes, so there was a certain level of drama. But we both mentioned that a number of times. It's like, it's not great baseball.

It's not really fun or engaging baseball. The end result was close, and you got the Sunday game went to extra innings, so there was some inherent excitement in that. But you bring up a good point with the watchability. It's when you watch the Jays night after night or day after day, there is a sort of lack of watchability. And I wonder how much hangs on the shoulders of Atkins and Shapiro because they're the ones that made that shift

or made the organizational direction to go that way. Yeah, it's funny with them because they obviously came to Toronto from Cleveland and started to turn Toronto into the Cleveland teams that they built when the teams that they had in Cleveland were pitching in defense and kind of putting the ball in play not necessarily hitting a ton of home runs so I think with the teams that they initially had in Toronto like it was maybe only a matter of time before they started to kind of shift it towards the way that the Blue Jays are now with kind of a different approach to the play where they're looking to to make contact and maybe not strike out as much and kind of lean into

the whole pitching and defense thing and I mean credit to them like it worked they were able to make the playoffs last season as as a run prevention team and bringing in Dalton Varshow and bringing in Kevin Kiermaier and kind of signing Chris Bassett, Kevin Gossman, trading Jose Barrios, like all those moves are really nice moves, but it just feels like the pendulum went too far in that direction and kind of moving away from the excitement and the really good teams that they had in 2021 and 2022, where they're hitting a ton of home runs and maybe not getting the results that they needed from their pitching staff but it feels like when you when you trade

a teoscar hernandez for a reliever then you need to kind of replace his value and it just kind of feels like they they never did that and anticipated that they would be able to to get that value elsewhere and it just obviously hasn't worked out the longer that we're, or the further away that we are from that trade. Zach, this was great, man. Thanks for taking the time to do it. We appreciate it. Enjoy a couple days off here before the season starts back up.

We'll do this again as we get closer to the trade deadline. Awesome. Appreciate you guys having me on. Yeah, thanks for coming on. We appreciate it too. Zach Worden, Associate Editor, MLB Writer, Jay's Writer for Sportsnet.ca here on the Halford & Brough Show on Sportsnet 650.

So tell me, Halford, while I was gone the last couple of weeks, how many Mount Rushmores did you do? Oh, it was a Mount Rushmore day. We did a Mount Rushmore. How many sports movies did you do? We even did a Mount Rushmore of Mount Rushmores. Of Mount Rushmore. Really?

Yeah. What is the Mount Rushmore? I do want to leave Mount Rushmore off. Yeah. I thought it was an easy answer. I mean, besides the Mount Rushmore, what other Mount Rushmores are of the Mount Rushmore? Andy wanted to leave Mount Rushmore off. Yeah. I thought it was an easy answer. I mean, besides the Mount Rushmore, what other Mount Rushmores are of the Mount Rushmore? We didn't do as many as my constant begging on Twitter suggested that we might for free content from the listeners. But we did a fair share.

Why, Brough, did you want to do one right now? Is that what you're hinting at? Why? What makes you say that, Andy? Yeah. What makes you suggest that we would be doing a Mount Rushmore on the show today? There was one that came in specifically addressed to me. It was from Woodrow.

Right, the eligible bachelor who texts in a lot on the Dunbar Lumber text line. And he said, to welcome me back, what is your Mount Rushmore of saddest Canucks moments? And I thought, okay, so my first day back, we're going to go through the saddest Canucks moments. But why not? You are the commissioner of the sad club. Okay. We've got to make some ground rules on this first. It has to be a feeling of sadness in the moment.

Okay. So it can't be hindsight sadness, like trading Cam Neely and watching him turn into a Hall of Famer. Agreed? Okay. Let's also keep it to sports sadness. Okay. Not actual tragedies like losing Luke Bordon or Rick Rippon. It's a very fair rule.

This is supposed to be a fun sports show. Those were real life tragedies and they don't belong on any Mount Rushmore list. So when you text in, why aren't you talking about loopboard on just go back and listen to the podcast. Okay. We've already explained it. So these are my personal ones and I pretty sure they're going to differ to others, but Mount Rushmore is our personal thing. The first one's probably going to be the same for everyone losing game seven in 2011, followed by the riot. Sad. I was legitimately sad then.

That was a sadness that I felt for almost a decade. Excluding. Still feel it sometimes. Excluding game seven of 2011 would be like Andy excluding Mount Rushmore from the list of Mount Rushmore. You can't do it. You can't do it. My number two is choking against the Minnesota Wild in 2003. I remember being at game seven.

I wasn't even working in sports media then. I was just, I don't know. God, how old was I? 50. I think I was in my 20s. I remember it well. And I remember thinking, how the hell did we lose that game? Darby Hendrickson, Richard Park.

Why are these guys killing us right now? Number three for me, and this is the first time, this is when it gets kind of personal. This is the first and actually only time the Canucks made me cry. Losing to the Flames in 1989. And I know the Canucks were heavy underdogs and the Flames actually went off to win the Stanley Cup that year.

But go watch that overtime on YouTube. The Canucks had so many chances to win that thing. They should have won that thing. We all talk about the, oh, he kicked it in as the game winning goal in 89. The real disappointment for me in that game was the fact that they didn't bury some of

their chances. Yep. Like Smeal had that breakaway on Mike Verne the real disappointment for me in that game was the fact that they didn't bury some of their chances. Yep. Like Smeal had that breakaway on, on Mike Vernon, Petr Scrico had a bunch of chances. Someone hit the post. I can't remember.

It might've been, I can't remember who hit the post, but they should have won. It was an incredible overtime. If you've ever got some time to kill, go watch it on YouTube in its entirety. That's number three. And number four,

I hate the flames. I hate losing to the Flames. Losing to the Flames in 2004 was my number four saddest moment. I thought the Canucks were destined to win that after Matt Cook tied it late. And then, you know, we all remember that he tied it with Ed Jovanovsky in the penalty box

and then the Flames just went on right into overtime and they won it on the power play. It was like, oh. Guys, we're good. We still got a man advantage here. Yeah, I mean, listen, the Canucks went through about, what, three or four different goalies in that series. So I don't know if they were going to go on.

I know the Flames went on to the Stanley Cup final. I don't know if the Canucks were destined to do that. It's so long ago that I can't remember all the details, but I just remember feeling that crushing disappointment, because I thought they were going to do it after they tied it late. Nathan Lafayette post. Okay, so here is my notes. I did not include 1982 or 1994-82.

I don't really remember. They were swept by the Islanders. The Islanders were obviously an incredible team. Nobody expected the Canucks to win that Stanley Cup final. And I don't recall feeling overly sad about 94. I felt appreciative for the journey. Your 89 was my 94 because that was my first real sports sadness memory. Right.

And I remember vividly, still remember that post vividly. And I was 10 years old. But I know it was a game seven loss. I know there was a riot afterwards. But the Canucks also had like this rally. There was a rally for the Canucks. I believe it was held at BC Place where people, I mean, that was a celebration of that team. There wasn't that sadness. And the thing about the Nathan Lafayette post

is I never remember them seeing that on the broadcast. I remember that being, oh, wait a minute. They looked back on it. And is that the same memory you have? Like we weren't sure what happened on the play. And, you know, there wasn't HD like there is now. And they were like, oh, wait a minute. Lafayette hit the post there? It my god cemented on replay than in real time actually i think that's why it's harder to have

like an actual play by play of the actual event like it was it was more immortalized when they went to the monitor after that's how i recall it anyway but this a lot of this is personal recall which is why you've got like the 2004 lost the flames i wouldn't have had that in mind yeah i just hate the flames no i get that but 89 i would have because that was my first real heartbreak with the facts that was the one i remember the most and it was a crushing way to lose yeah and in you know you and that was one where it's like well they were still underdogs and the fact they took it to seven was great. That is all true, but there was still the heartbreak at the end of it.

They should have won. They should have won. They deserve to win that series. A couple others for your consideration, just to throw it out there. Underrated one, but I wrote about this back in our Crippen blog days. I remember it distinctly. I said that this was the most crippling injury ever in Canucks history,

and that was Naslin breaking his leg against Buffalo in 2001, and it just cratered everything. They sputtered down. I remember watching him on the ice, and he was clearly in considerable amounts of pain. So right away, you knew it was serious. So there's the immediacy of sadness,

and you're like, the Canucks had just sort of turned the corner back into being a good team. They were going to go to the playoffs. I remember there was still a lot at stake at the end of the regular season because I think they were trying to avoid two teams in the playoffs, and it was Colorado and San Jose. And then Nazem broke his leg.

They sputtered down the stretch. They got bombed in the playoffs. And I just remember it was the most deflating late-season injury for a collective team because Nazlum was the team at that point. He was so pivotal. Do you know what? I barely remember that because I think I was still on my checked out of the Canucks.

All the early 2000 ones, that's why I'm surprised you remember 0-4 against the Flames because that was still in that game. No, but 0-3 was what brought me yeah west coast express west coast express brought me back so oh one so i know keenan wasn't there but i checked out on the canucks i really did and part of it was to do with where i was in life i mean i was in university i was doing other things i was you know it was it was just and they were bad and i was like i'm I'm out. So on that note. I cried after the OEL trade. Can we put that in there? So on that note, where you were kind of checked out at the time,

your memories of the Lidstrom goal against Cloutier, does that just sort of a blip for you? No, no, no. I remember the Canucks going into Detroit and going up 2-0. That might have brought me back in some ways. I'm like, wait a minute, are they going to do this? Because that one's kind of remembered. When you're talking about the immediacy of hurt that one is kind of remembered

as everyone in the building you could feel the air just being let out of the team yeah because they were up to nothing on detroit they you didn't really have control of the series yes they were up too but you were always kind of wondering like are they gonna have enough gumption to put it away and then that goal goes in and everything cratered from. Yeah. So that was one that I think a lot of people, that was a backbreaking moment that everyone expected to happen. But when it finally did,

it was like, it still hurts. Kudos to the folks at the province. Cause they did a, when the Canucks turned 50, they did a retrospective look about moments and they had the 1998 trade of Trevor Linden as one of the saddest moments in franchise history and I at the time I do wonder like I looking at it now you can't you can't really understand the sadness because it did give us great fruit like it brought

Bertuzzi in which paved way for the West Coast Express and everything and the trade tree from Linden gave great things to the organization but you know if you go back and you read some of the tributes that came out like people felt like they got their heart ripped out when Linden got traded all because of the fact that he was the Canucks and then

Keenan came in and essentially humiliated the guy and then they were forced to trade him. And then you could feel like he was broken up about it because he never wanted to be anything other than a Canuck. And the Canucks really never, ever should have had him leave the organization, even though it gave great assets back in the trade. Have you ever had a checkout of the Canucks?

Do you ever check out? It's not like you say, like, I'm done with this team. It just happens. You know, it just happens that all of a sudden you're kind of like, wait a minute, I normally would have been

interested in that and I'm not anymore. Was it the last four years before? I was going to say, like, dude, even working the games, like, I would feel

like half invested. I would feel checked out. Even working them, I'd feel half invested. I would feel checked out. Even working them, I'd feel checked out. But while you've been working, you haven't really been able to check out. Part of this was work-related. When we made the move to start covering the league big picture after 2011, I started paying attention less. And then after 2013, I remember thinking this is a bad sign.

There were red flags everywhere, right? They had been bounced from like really definitively in two playoff rounds. Vino got fired. And then when they hired Torts, I was like, that's a red flag. That's not good. There was a lot where I was like, okay, I can. And then the whole Willie era, I remember being very checked out. I went back and was looking at some of the things that happened

and I was like, God, I don't even remember that. And I'm talking like 2014, 2015, 2016. Players coming in. It's so bad, you're like half invested in the game. We did the Mount Rushmore. I guess Lyndon and I could work out. Yeah, we did the Mount Rushmore of bad Canucks contracts and someone was like, you forgot about Spiza? I'm like, I

did forget about Spiza. I just tuned out on that entirely. Okay, we're way up against it for time. Drenter's joining us next. We're going to talk to him. We'll ask him that question for his Mount Rushmore of the four saddest moments. We'll talk about the Ardor Seelovs signing after Drenter

at 8 o'clock. We'll talk to Andy Strickland, talk to him about his interview that he had with Jake DeBras. So lots of hockey talk still to come on the Alfred and Brough Show on Sportsnet 650. Hey, it's Jamie Dodd and Thomas Drance. Get your daily dose of Canucks talk with us weekdays from 12 to 2 on Sportsnet 650. Or catch up on demand through your favorite podcast app.

And what we just have to call Thomas Grant's erotica. Thomas Grant's erotica. Coarse. Thomas Grant's erotica. Expected goals. Thomas Grant's erotica. Expected goals. Thomas Grant's Erotica. Top model. Thomas Grant's Erotica.

Red Russian. Thomas Grant's Erotica. PDO. Thomas Grant's Erotica. 734 on a Wednesday. Happy Wednesday, everybody. Halford Brough, Sportsnet 650. Halford and Brough in the morning is brought to you by Vancouver Honda, Vancouver's premier destination for Honda customers.

They have a friendly, knowledgeable staff that can help with anything you're looking for. Sales, financing, service, or parts. We are in Hour 2 of the program it is time for thomas drance our two of this program is brought to you by primetime craft beer meticulously brewed for quality and taste primetime is full flavor without compromise you can get some at a liquor store near you or you can visit the brewery to see how it's made joining us now in the half of the breath show thomas drance from The Athletic and Canucks Talk here on Sportsnet 650.

What up, Drancer? Good morning, gentlemen. How are you? We are well. Artur Silovs is well. He signed a two-year extension yesterday. I noticed that there was a lot of Artur Silovs talk on the station yesterday.

Not surprising, given that it was July 16th and everyone was starved for content, but you also wrote a piece in The Athletic about Seelovs. What were your big takeaways from the two-year extension with the Canucks? Yeah, I mean, the two years is the most interesting part to me because of what it sort of tells us about how this organization handles those second contracts for young players who've sort of flashed but have yet to prove that they're like everyday NHL-level contributors yet. Right?

And so we've seen the club do this, and it's worked out in some cases, and it hasn't in others. And obviously it's low risk. It's below the amount that you can bury. Right? So Nils Hoaglander signed a two-year 1.1, obviously went off for just a whole whack of five-on-five goals last season. But they also did it with Jack Rathbone, right?

And they also did it before the playoffs with Vasily Podkolzin. So Podkolzin and Shelovs, you know, I think you can draw a straight line there, right? It's like the organization obviously wants these players to step up they they want she loves to be the backup and and to you know play a lot in the nhl next season but despite what he showed in the postseason he hasn't done it he hasn't been a full-time nhl goalie for a full season yet at this point in his career and likewise vasily podkholzin right i think there's been a lot of talk about him all summer, this sort of characterizing this as a make-or-break year.

These are players who don't have arbitration rights. They don't have a lot of leverage, right? It's really just something of a reward, a guaranteed NHL salary for a couple of seasons, but also manages their cap it and puts them in a position where they should make the team. There's no salary reason for them to not make the team. They just haven't shown it yet.

And so I think there's a philosophy here that's sort of emerging and that I'd been reporting on for a couple weeks before the deal where they wanted to do a two-year deal with Shelov's. They were going to manage the cap hit pretty ruthlessly here uh grind away if that's what it took and she loves ends up getting like a 30k bump over what he would have earned on his qualifying offer plus the extra year plus you know nhl security a guaranteed nhl salary for the next two seasons so you know it works for both sides even though i'm sure players in this situation feel their lack of leverage. I think there's a reason that these deals take a minute to get done.

Right. And sometimes don't get done until mid-July. But ultimately, that's the conclusion here. And that's how this club wants to do business with players that are sort of in this tier knocking on the door. And she loves his case banging down the door uh to get a full-time nhl job in the future you want to do some mount rushmore's with us yeah sure sounds good okay uh befitting of brough's return to the chair today someone wanted to uh compile the canucks saddest moments the sad club commission self spearheaded this one. And we had some ground rules. Yeah, the ground rules has to be a feeling of sadness in the moment. So Cam Neely being traded and blossoming into a Hall of Famer doesn't count

because it wasn't in the moment. And also, very important, sports sadness only, so not actual tragedies like losing Luke Bourdain or Rick Rippon. So Jason will reiterate his list of four, and then you can add or subtract as you see fit. So mine was losing game seven in 2011, followed by the riot. Very sad.

Obvious. Number one, choking against the wild in 2003, losing to the flames in 89 and losing to the flames in 2004. Those were my four. And it's a pretty, and so these are all personal lists. So what would your personal list be?

Okay. So I'm going to go a little deeper and go moments, specific moments. Because you're right, like my number one by a lot, by a lot, not close. And at this point, you know, I'm talking, I'm dating back to when I was still a fan. So, you know, the one that hurt me the most by far was from 2011, but was not losing game seven to the stanley cup final it was jonathan tave scoring the shorty in game seven against chicago right now good choice yeah now this sadness only lasted for what 25 30 minutes before alex burrows scored but it was

it was a deep sadness profound and a deep worry and a deep sense of dread. Oh, I'm telling you, this was looking into, like, the pit of despair. Like, I remember the just, like, pure, nihilistic, like, what are we even doing here? Why do I even follow this sport? Like, what am I doing with my life? Like, I was in a dark, dark place for a solid 30 minutes there. Right. And, you know, the context of the two consecutive series losses prior to it to Chicago, the amount of distaste that I'd sort of built up for away the three nothing series lead or pissed it away as Ryan Kessler once memorably put it. And then,

and then to, you know, the safety of like, wow, they've taken a penalty. They're going to do this right. And how well they played all night, despite not being able to solve Corey Crawford to pad their lead.

And then to get scored on that individual effort, right. Where, where there's not even any danger there until Taves bats in his own rebound. That was brutal. That was brutal. That, for me, is number one, and it's number one with a bullet. I would go number two, honestly.

I think number two would be the 3-0 goal in the 2011 Stanley Cup final, Game 7. That was when Marchand kind of bowled Luongo over. Yeah. And it went into the net, and it was like that was when marchand kind of bold blew on go over yeah and it went into the net and it was like that was the moment that you knew like that was the moment that it was like oh it's really not happening right you know you knew you knew earlier but like you really knew there um and you knew that the players knew at that point right that to me would be number two so

that's when the smart car got really worried on Georgia Street, too. To two from the same playoff run. That was brutal. That was grisly. I honestly, like, I'm tempted to put number three because, you know, the real moment where 2011 hits you is when you wake up the next morning and you're like, wow, wow. But I'm not going to do that. I think the other one for me would be um the other one for me would be the

uh i i do think the marty gelina elimination goal to power the flames past the canucks in 2004 that one was brutal because of the um you know the opposite effect of the jonathan taves moment right where you have this incredible incredible low following you know this unbelievable joy from you know the Naslund rebound to Matt Cook goal with seven seconds left to force overtime there um you know that that was that was rough that was rough for sure and then like for me I can't put 94 i can't put the stanley cup final loss in 94 on the list simply because i was a little bit too young you know what i mean like i didn't i didn't really like i appreciated that the canucks were losing i i understood that much

but like i remember most of the second period i was like out on a trampoline eating a slurpee like i was just like it's june you know so how often do you still do that not enough honestly it sounds great just like sitting with my friends because there's so many people over at the house for a game and being like and you know like we watched it's just i i didn't really compute but i didn't understand sort of that what the next 20 years of my life were going to be like as a Canucks fan. You know what I mean? I was just like, Slurpee, this red Slurpee is good. Better than your blue Slurpee.

Bad call, right? So, I think for four or five, or sorry, for four, I'd probably put the... I think the one that I do remember being really really mad about was the um Patrick Kane backhand right to seal the hat trick and and finish off the

Canucks because you remember how well they played that game uh Matt Sundin had that beautiful goal off some and the Canucks had been up in that series like that was the series where you know a Marion Hossa scored to tie game four Canucks were like 30 seconds or 25 seconds away from taking a 3-1 series lead that year so that one was pretty that one hurt uh as I recall um and then I guess I'll go with um I don't remember who scored it. I think it was Rob Niedermeyer scoring to eliminate the Canucks in that first Roberto Luongo Canucks playoff run. What was that, 06, 07? No, 06 would have been the lockout year. 07, yeah.

Oh, no, no, it's 08. It's got to be 08. Oh, to eliminate them. To eliminate them, okay. To eliminate them against the Anaheim Ducks. So game five of the second round in, I think, 2008. It's got to be 08. 07, sorry.

It is 07. 07, they lost to the Ducks in the playoffs. Yeah. That's what he's talking about. Yeah, yeah. I just mixed my ears. I was in Cabo. It was Scott.

Less sad. And it was Scott Niedermeyer, wrist shot from the point. Yeah. Okay. Scott Niedermeyer. So, I got the ear wrong and the Niedermeyer, wrist shot from the point. Yeah. Okay, Scott Niedermeyer. So I got the year wrong and the Niedermeyer wrong, which is always a good sign. But yeah, so Niedermeyer with, you know,

Mwango having a return from the bathroom. And yeah, you were in Cabo. I was on a cruise with my family and listening on the radio somewhere. So you were trapped with the family. Well, not only was I trapped with my family, but I remember I couldn't watch the game. Like, I couldn't find the game, and I walked sort of to the bar, and there was, like, four sad Canucks fans

listening to the game on the radio. And I was like, oh, sick, and joined them to listen to it. But I just remember, like, you know, I lived on the East Coast, so that double overtime or quadruple overtime game, which you guys, I know, remember against the Stars in the first round. I lived on the East Coast, so that double overtime or quadruple overtime game, which you guys I know remember against the Stars in the first round, like I stayed up till 5 a.m. to watch that game. You know what I mean? Like it was insanely late when that game ended.

I wasn't even at my house. I think I was at my girlfriend at the time's house. And then, yeah, it didn't last. And then I just had a sense that season, like the Luongo run, the Canucks have this goalie and it's all going to – so I feel like I was young enough. I was old enough to know the pain there, but young enough. I feel like that one's more about me.

I was old enough to know the pain of losing, but young enough to like really think that that team had a shot. Right. Even though, of course, they didn't. So that one hurt. That one will be five on my list but yeah my main takeaway is the taves the 30 minutes after the taves overtime winner against chicago that was the darkest uh that was the darkest hour for connect fans pre-analytic strands sounds like a pretty good guy sounds hopeful sounds optimistic sounds like uh sounds like a kind of guy I'd like to hang out with. Drancer, we were, of course, talking,

since this is my first show back after being away a couple weeks, we were talking about Gareth Southgate and how he went from a hero in England to, I don't think there are many people in England that are too upset that he has resigned the job despite the fact that I think some of the criticism of Southgate was pretty unfair and he took the England program back to a level that you know they had never really been at in terms of you know they won two Euro finals a semi at the World Cup quarterfinals at the World Cup and they lost to really good teams. There was no shame in it.

But we were kind of comparing it to Rick Talkett and talking about the criticisms of Gareth Southgate and the criticisms, whether they were fair or not, was that he was too conservative. He was too stubborn. He wouldn't evolve tactically. Sometimes he didn't adapt uh in games what are and and i wasn't saying that this is going to happen to rick talk but i just thought it was kind of interesting because we all know the state of the canucks when um rick talk it took over and you know most people

will know the state of england when when uh gareth southgate took over and they just lost iceland you know iceland in in the euros so i guess my question is how can rick talk it avoid the fate of gareth southgate who went from a hero to a much criticized manager in a fairly short time span uh not be a not be a coach of a professional sports team that matters a lot to hundreds of thousands if not millions of people right i mean that i think that's the fate of every coach right like i think the fate of every coach is to eventually have your time come yeah i do i honestly believe but some coaches win and some coaches evolve more than others. Yes. And so I guess, anyway, I cut you off, so I apologize.

No, no, it's fine. It's like if you win, then after the criticism subsides and as time goes on, you're remembered a little bit more fondly versus like an Alain Vigneault where, you know, you're still sort of recognized as the greatest coach in the history of the Canucks franchise, but you don't have, you didn't get it done, right? You didn't get it done. And that modifies your legacy. Right. And I think the,

cause I was thinking a little bit about this myself to be totally honest with you guys, cause I was reading a lot about Southgate. I quite admired the guy over time. But I came to sort of the, like reading about the stability that he brought, you know, the contrast, I think, that emerged in England between him and his eight years tenure versus like five national leaders right the the idea

that like Southgate was one of the most stable things in the country yeah over the course of eight years yeah um as the country went through all this instability and it did sort of really remind me a little bit of sort of like the emotional quotient the emotional intelligence that we saw from Rick Tockett that like one of the things that has been most impressive about talkett since he took over because we can talk tactics you can talk goal scoring you can talk whatever you want like i feel like the the real accomplishment of what we've seen over the course of the last 18 months well no there's multiple ones the defensive organization is obviously uh organization is obviously a top line item as well. But I do think it's like the way that Talkett seemed to be able to get the pieces that the Canucks had to blend in a way that sort of led to winning.

Right. And that was sort of my biggest question going into last season. Right. It's like I knew JT Miller was good. I knew Quinn Hughes was remarkable. I still believe in Elias Pettersson, and I think more than Jason. No, but despite the talent that the Canucks core had, they hadn't been able to put it together collectively in service of winning hockey games consistently. And as you sort of think about

like what we saw from Miller especially right who sort of became the face of this it just felt like with the way that Rick Tockett demanded this team carry themselves with how he was able to relate to his players you know and and you know I bring up the core guys, but like, it applies to Tyler Myers too, right? And Nikita Zdorov, like on and on down the list. It felt like they, it felt like the individual players on the Canucks were able to channel certain things that even had held them back in the past in service of winning hockey games, right? There was this,

there was this level to which they appeared to get better, not, not just as players, but in terms of conducting their business as individuals at the NHL level. Now, is that all attributable to Rick Tockett? Is this the maturity or sort of an immature group getting more mature, figuring it out collectively? I'm sure it's more complicated than that, but I certainly find it tempting to give Tuckett a lot of credit because of the way he carries himself, right? Because of what we see from him in interviews, because of sort of that generosity of spirit

that leads him to walk you through X's and O's. Like, he'll spend time lining up reporters and, like, really try to explain to them how this team plays, right? That's pretty special. That's not something that you see from a lot of different guys and and as i was reading about southgate's tenure that was really the sort of um the sort of connective tissue between southgate and talk it that i like that i independently uh sort of came to reading it it just felt like you know while people can get lost in the tactics or, or overweight the tactics,

it's like that, that EQ that both men share that I, that I do think is a real commonality between them. That being said, all of that being said, and I think that was really well said, um, there are going to be, have to be some tactical adjustments that Rick Talkett makes. And even he admitted admitted at the end of your press conference he's going to have to do a deep dive to figure out how the canucks can create more rush chances because there were times in the playoffs where forget scoring goals getting a shot on goal was a challenge for this team yeah yeah no, so my view of this is because there's a long-ranging conversation about this subject that applies to Rod Brindamore, right? And Rod Brindamore's had a better team that's been closer to contention and that has fizzled out in the playoffs.

And every time it fizzles out in the playoffs, people are talking about the stellar performance of a goaltender, right? Like we talk about Sergei Bobrovsky's run in the playoffs people are talking about you know the stellar performance of a goaltender right like we talk about Sergei Bobrovsky's run in the Eastern Conference Final to shut them out as if it was like some special thing and it's like wait but this happens to the Carolina Hurricanes every year the goals dry up right um but I do sort of believe that stress hockey as Rod Brindamore plays it and and talk it doesn't play stress hockey with quite the same level of like rigidness frankly uh canucks defenders make more passes like canucks cross more lines with possession on the ice than the carolina

hurricanes do um explain what you mean by stress hockey stress hockey like um the carolina hurricanes are basically always looking to advance the puck they don't care about advancing it with control right they just want to push the battle uh you know further north up the ice and are confident that they have enough speed and enough players that can win those battles gotcha still control possession so um that's that's how they play there. There it's like a, it's like the Kansas city Royals used to play baseball where everyone else was hitting for power. And they were like, we've hit infield singles with fast players and then we force you to make

mistakes. Right. So they apply stress to the opponent, stress hockey. That's Rod Brindamore principle. And the Canucks do some of that. In fact, the Canucks do a fair bit of that. The Canucks also try to defend like fact the Canucks do a fair bit of that um the Canucks also try to defend like you know the the so here's the tactical questions for talk it because I think what people struggle with right like let's I'll sort of try and personify this through Quinn Hughes right there's still a sense if you talk to people or or fans you know you usually not very smart fans on the internet.

They're like Quinn Hughes is an offensive defenseman, right? Quinn Hughes is an offensive defenseman. People say because he puts up points, but when you watch him defend in his own end, he doesn't look elite, right? Whatever. First of all, I think that's wrong, but fine. The thing that those folks are missing

is that Quinn Hughes is so puck dominant, right? He has the puck so much more than any other player in the league in the offensive zone. And when he does, right, when he's holding the puck for two minutes a game, guess what's absolutely not happening.

No shot attempts, no shots on goal, right? Like the, the, the opponents are not generating anything. He is defending when he has the puck 150 feet from his own net, right? And the Canucks made very conservative puck management choices on a team level with extraordinary discipline last season. And that was in service of preventing shots, goals,

shot attempts on their own net, especially off the rush, right? Like, why are the Canucks so deliberate about when they try to make a pass into a dangerous area of ice? Like, why are they so content to just have these, like, withering possession shifts with not a lot of inside touches and very few, like, home run passes to try and set up scoring chances. Well, it's because if you turn it over, that feeds the rush chance against like that feeds rush chances against what

happens if you miss from a high danger area, like what happens if you try to pick a corner and it's a great scoring chance and you miss the puck rims around the glass and gets going against your defenseman, where forwards can pick up speed and jailbreak and create chances off the rush against you. Canucks don't want that. Canucks especially don't want that, I think, in my opinion, because they have this big, not particularly mobile defense

with a variety of players that can be exposed when forwards are skating at them a million miles per hour with possession of the puck. Like that's the Canucks play a system designed to hide that. And that's going to limit their scoring chances. My view of it, and I think we actually saw this from Carolina this year. I honestly do. You brought in, they brought in Kuznetsov, they brought in Jake Gensel, and yeah, look,

they lost to the New York Rangers, but they lost in a 5-4 game. Like, they lost a series in which they lost four one-goal games, and they weren't one-nothing 2-1 games. Like, you know, the process is not what does Rod Brindamore have to shift. It's how can the Carolina Hurricanes get better so that they have Jordan Martinuk and Jordan Stahl type guys, you know, like who are like leveled up, like more offensively dynamic versions of those players

who can still play Rod Brindamore's hockey so that they can score enough to win and and so to me when I think about this Canucks team and tactical tweaks like how do you generate more rush chances like yeah you know having a having a Jake DeBrusque type like a 25 goal scorer who skates like a like a bullet you know shot out of a gun like yeah that helps that's going to help there's going to be rush chances that his speed alone can help you create but you also have to take more risks right like you also have to be willing to turn the dial on hey we're going to try to make some more home run passes hey i'm not going to make it a non-negotiable staple of our team that you cannot

turn the puck over the moment we cross the blue line, right? Like that was what killed Kuzmenko. But you create offense like that. Yeah. Drancer, we're going to have to continue this conversation next time because we've got Andy Strickland coming up. You have to be too big a topic. I know. I know.

That's on me. I'll take that. My bad. But save it. Save it for some of the slower summer months. Fair enough. Can I just finish it quickly with the point is to get better players and defenders that can help you attack up the rush.

I think the system can work. Sounds good, buddy. All right. Yep, cheers. That was Thomas Drance. Andy Strickland is going to join us next. He had an interview with Jake DeBrusque recently, and we'll talk to Andy about that.

You're listening to the Halford & Brough Show on Sportsnet 650.