Handsome - Sarah Paulson asks about forgiveness

Episode Date: January 16, 2024

Sarah Paulson inspires some hilarious storytelling, as well as a VERY catchy tune about a button maker, Mae Facts about birds, and some very cathartic host-to-handsome-host forgiveness.We have a LOVE-themed live streaming show, February 12! Tickets here: https://www.squadup.com/events/handsome-podcast-1 Handsome is hosted by Tig Notaro, Mae Martin, and Fortune Feimster Follow us on social media: @handsomepod Merch: handsomepod.com Email the show: [e-mail] Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey guys, we listened to your suggestions and guess what? We have new merch! Go to handsomepod.com to check it out. We have pretty little lady sweatshirts, little cowboy baseball hats, a What A Podcast travel mug, and a new pack of stickers including Mayfacts and Pomp Tees. Again, go to handsomepod.com to get your handsome merch hey handsome listeners we're very excited to announce a handsome live show on monday february 12th that you can stream from anywhere in the world our first show was so much fun that we're doing it again and we'll be

taking your guys's questions plus we're going to have a bunch of surprises and maybe a special guest or two so get tickets at dynastytypewriter.com now and join us again it's february 12th your link will last all week and you can get tickets at dynastytypewriter.com Hello, handsome listeners. This is your very good friend, Tig Notaro, along with my co-hosts, Fortune Feimster and Mae Martin. Hello, friends. Hello, friends. Hello.

Hello. martin hello friends hello friends hello uh i have to tell everyone um oh just ahead of time oh yeah everyone buckle in um ahead of time if you do end up seeing a clip on zoom i did something i haven't done before and i adjusted my face on zoom yeah yeah on the touch up the touch option i've never done it you and i fortune we've been on this train for years like i am touched up to the max and i'm shocked that you're not tig and how do you feel now i am now i touched up how does it feel well i i you know i'm i'll be 53 in March and I would say I look 49. I'd say you look like a pretty little lady. Thank you.

Girlfriend. I don't mind a touch up because I have these bags under my eyes. And it helps. It just wipes them away. Now I'm glowing. But then people see you in person that's my issue yeah they're like oh my god you have a week to live I want to use every tool at my disposal to

look like a wax figure I want to be smooth and waxy do you think you're gonna have or maybe you already have face stuff done oh I've had a full facelift. Yeah, I'm sure I'm sure I will. I think the technology is going to get so good that it's just going to be like a little zap. And yeah, I got I got nothing against it. And would you just would you just do injections of like Botox or would you get an actual? I think I'm actually more inclined to wait till i really feel like i want to do a

full facelift i haven't thought about this before and then do that but do not do anything right now you're young and gorgeous no we're talking wait but those injectables are sketched aren't that people look very inflated i know this is hard to believe you guys but i've never had work done i haven't either except on zoom that's where i go get my free work done i picture taking my face off if i do anything this is the only thing that i'm willing to do is have my face completely removed what oh wow put an iron use an iron to just iron out all the wrinkles yeah oh my god that's pretty smart right oh i can't wait for technology to catch up to that i can that i so viscerally could see that process it seems like um technology you'll get to a place where you can

just put your face i mean it's probably already there it's probably actually way past my invention i'm about to share okay okay thomas put this on the list no but um where you just have a computer recognize your face do all your touch-ups and on the screen and then you just look like that throughout the whole movie oh yeah i think people are already doing that aren't they okay well no one, no one's giving me the option. I'm sorry. You wanted Thomas to put that on the list. Thomas, put it on the list, please, for our patent that idea. Yes, Thomas, patent that, please.

Well, because now we're on YouTube. Hanson is on YouTube. So we are going to need that feature. I don't know if, Tig, for One Mississippi, you were in the edit. need that feature i don't know if take for for one mississippi you were in the edit um like i so i was there were a couple of times where i was really pushing them to like get rid of zits or like smooth out my skin tone and it would get to a point where they were like if we just do this for you and no one else it's gonna look really weird oh yeah yeah because you have this like smooth face and everybody else is like yeah i had to normal to normal. I had to let go of that.

Yeah, I didn't. It never dawned on me. I think when I was doing that, I maybe I wasn't I mean, I for sure wasn't quite as old as I am now. There's certainly been movies and TV shows I've been on where it's alarming when I come on camera. movies and TV shows I've been on where it's alarming when I come on camera. Because everyone else is. Everyone else looks so good and smoothed out. And I'm like, I'm in this scene too. No, you're crazy. Well, no, I mean, I'm not somebody that's terribly hard on myself in that way. But I would say in the past couple of years, I've certainly noticed a change in my look,

which is why I haven't done any adjustments on Zoom and other things, because I do think it can be alarming when you see people in person, when their face is always adjusted, and then you see them right and it's like oh what's going on well i saw you in person the other night and i was very happy about it okay well i was happy to see you but that doesn't mean that and you look great was my point that's what i was waiting for there you go so uh what were you guys doing just Just hanging out? A couple of handsomes? A friend of ours had a Christmas thing for their company. Yeah. Oh, I see.

I see. And neither of us knew the other was going to be there. That's fine. As long as it wasn't like a one-on-one handsome excursion where you're dressed up like cowboys on horses. We were never without you, man. Propeller hats. Propeller hats all over the place.

And we're just like, may who? Where's that little cowboy? Yeah. You just hired a little boy to tag along. Then we pull in a wagon. Just me and Fortune walking down the road arm in arm

and just pulling a little red wagon with a little cowboy in the back. Well, we ended up sitting in the corner talking with each other for like two hours. Oh, that's so nice. Well, I told Tig I had just watched Tig's documentary. I had seen it before back when it came out, but I wanted to see it again now that I'm seeing Tig on a much regular basis just to sort of revisit that time in her life yeah me

too i i felt the same thing i want to re-watch it it's a good time it made me cry it made me cry but also made me very happy for where tig is at in life oh thank you thank you guys i i had a oh this is i'm sorry no i thought you're gonna say were going to say, guys, I have to go. Guys, I got to go. We're giving Tig too much attention. I got to bounce. Yeah, sorry. No, I had a facial for the first time the other day. Have you ever had one?

Many. Yeah, I like a facial. Really? Yeah. I've never had one. I think I have. I mean, it's becoming obvious as we talk about these things. I have like weird face stuff and image stuff.

I think there's a lot of talk about skin and skin care in my house when I was a kid and faces. But I've never liked people touching my face or feeling like there's anything on my face. But this woman who I'm involved with and live with. Heavily involved with. This woman I'm involved with whose bed I share. Yes. Some might call her my girlfriend. Girlfriend.

She bought me a facial as a present. And actually the woman doing the facial was a previous Survivor contestant. So I was really excited to go as I'm a deep Survivor fan. And it was awesome and and she she did these um vibrating forks that she held I had that you haven't had the force doesn't sound like you had a facial I don't know what I had sounds like you're a pa I mean I I came so is that normal? Wait. Wait. I'm joking.

I didn't come. But it was great. And she did like. Never mind. I did not do that. It was amazing. It was so relaxing. Did she ever touch your face though like yeah she ever give

you a facial aside from the other weird stuff yeah she she she gave me like a facial massage and then i guess she did the extraction thing uh-huh which i wish i could have watched it is that gross like i wanted to see up some people love that stephanie loves extracting things they have that show dr pimple popper yes they do that's all they show and people are obsessed oh my it is so gross i you hate it i hate it so much i hate it but can't look away i guess probably me too i guess what's psychologically like satisfying about it is the clear like at the end it's all clean and clear like it's seeing yeah because i do enjoy them but and you didn't have a problem with her touching your face no i had to it was like exposure therapy because really hate, I had this acquaintance who used to at parties,

I barely knew her and she would come up and put both her hands on my face. Oh God. Kiss me on the mouth. No, no, no, no, no,

no. I know. And I would not be into that. So finally, after like years of this, I said to her one time, you have to stop doing that. I really don't like when you touch my face. And she did it again. I thought, well, So finally, after like years of this, I said to her one time, you have to stop doing that.

I really don't like when you touch my face. And she did it again. I thought, well, no. Yeah. So what did you do? I think I just would avoid her after that. Like, I kind of thought, well, I gave you the warning. Yeah.

Now you don't get me. Now I'm running across the room. Well, I have to say, Mae, this is another one of those two against one situations i think unless fortune speaks up we'll see i cannot stand my face being touched oh i don't care but jack takes it yeah so tig you and i are yeah two against one here i cannot stand it however you know step Stephanie, I'm good and fine with that. You know, if I'm with somebody and I'm involved, I don't mind. But when somebody just, oof. Well, strangers or a person you don't know that well is weird.

But even you, Fortune, I don't want you touching my face. But I wouldn't. I love you dearly, not clearly. I wouldn't touch your face. You know what I mean? Well, I understand. But I'm just saying no. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Absolutely not. Yeah. It's not okay. I touch my face and my mouth. Jax is always like, stop touching your face. Stop touching your face. Oh, really? Okay, so Jax is with us.

Yeah, I have touched Jax's face once in our nine years together and no and she hates it she's a she hers is a big she's a germ person very big love some anti-germ and uh just doesn't also like her face being touched so yeah i got the message on the first go i often get um told by audience members and things that i'm neurodivergent i feel like it's like a spectrum isn't it of different things and like there are things that i think like sensitivity to physical touch and things like that or like you know walking on my toes all the time i don't know i have i've heard that word more lately but i truth be told don't know what it entails me neither me neither okay well we should

google it oh yeah maybe thomas can tell us at some point um but um i've heard it but i don't feel neurodivergent but i also maybe don't know what neurodivergent is oh here it is here we go definition this comes in very big-handed okay differing in differing in mental or neurological function from what is considered typical or normal i mean these but all these words like isn't everybody everybody isn't everybody i i used to do this thing asking you know i like to ask questions and one of them is like do you feel different to most people? Everyone says yes. It kind of reminds me of when people like to say that, you know, when you say, oh, I'm

a comedian and they say, oh, gosh, that's such a dark world. And everybody everybody's so depressed. And and I just feel like comedians are at a microphone and are on a stage. So you're hearing about it. But if you go next door, your neighbor is probably dark or depressed or your mail carrier. It's just that musicians, comedians, you have a platform. Yeah. I bet there's like tortured button makers, you know, famously. For sure. Button makers. Famously, yes. They are.'s like tortured button makers you know famously for sure button makers

famously yes they are tortured button makers they're drinking have you ever heard of joe joe the button maker hi my name is joe i have a wife and three kids and i work in a button factory one day my wife came and she said joe are you busy i said no nobody's heard that i've rarely talking about i've rarely been speechless in that way i feel like it's like a song for kids and everybody works in a button factory but what kid would love that terrible song no but then guys stay with me what happens to joe hi i'm busy at are you know and then she said turn the button with your left hand so you start doing this okay the kids are for those of you who can't see i'm turning the button so then you start over you go, my name is Joe. I have a wife and three kids and we're a kid button factory.

One day, my wife came in. She said, Joe. Is this the first song ever written for children? He said, turn the button with your right hand. Now you're doing this. See, the kids are moving their hands. So what? Why is his life story so kind of because it rhymes and boring

i mean it's just like hey my name is joe i'm telling you family i'm going to work i'm telling you sing this song with a five-year-old and see if they like it you move all you're turning your buttons with all your limbs so the kids are like doing all these movements. I feel like the bar is higher now. Why not the hokey pokey? Why don't we have to limit ourselves to one? Joe, the button pusher or button maker? He works in a button factory, you guys.

And he, you said there's probably dark button maker. No, I know how we got there, but I'm shocked that this is i've never heard of it and it sounds like in the olden days where they hadn't invented toys yet and they gave people like a stick to play with it's like that it's like they hadn't invented songs yet and they went i guess this is a song yeah they hadn't invented a children's song and then somebody that had terrible ideas a terrible voice he's probably called jo. I don't think you two are the target audience. Okay. I think my five-year-old friends that love songs that rhyme

are fans of Joe and his button factory. Okay. Well, it's also on the same album as I'm Betsy and I walk down the street. I put on my shoes and I wave to people because I'm Betsy and I walk down the street. I put on my shoes and I wave to people because I'm Betsy and I have a hand and I can wave to people

on the street. I haven't heard one rhyme. There's Betsy with her hands waving at us. She has shoes on. Betsy. Tig, not one rhyme.

Wait, I don't... Every five-year-old right now is like, the song needs, you know what the song needs more rhyming but there's no rhymes in the joe one hi my name is joe i have a wife three kids at a work in a button factory hold on she's a joke are you busy here we go i said no come Come on. Oh, my God. So Joe and no, that's the only rhyme?

Oh, no, Joe, is what the song should. So it turns out there's only one rhyme. And I'm. But there's a lot here. There's one rhyme. There is nothing there. We've been talking about it on the podcast. I've been treading water lately, just a few minutes out of my day that I take for myself to do something that's good for me. I wake up feeling better. I have more energy and you know, small actions like that can have big benefits, like how taking care of your gut can support whole body health.

Well, Seeds DS01 Daily Symbiotic benefits your gut, skin, and heart health in just two little capsules a day. Now, I've been using Seeds DS01 Daily Symbiotic, and it's great. My skin feels better. I feel better. It's just good. So trust your gut with Seeds DS01 Daily Symbiotic. Go to seed.com slash handsome and use code 25handsome to get 25% off your first month. That's 25% off your first month of Seeds DS01 Daily Symbiotic at seed.com slash handsome code 25handsome. I love the show hacks and it is back baby for season three. That's right. We are going to see what kind of antics Debra Vance is up to this season. She is such a treat to watch because who doesn't love Jean Smart? She is so freaking talented.

Now, season two left off with Ava being fired. If you haven't watched any of Hacks, guess what? It's on Max. You can catch up. And I highly recommend that you do so before season three starts. There is also an official Hacks podcast. restarts. There is also an official Hacks podcast. In each episode, Hacks creators Lucia Agnello, Paul W. Downs, and Jen Statsky speak with cast and crew members to unpack the Emmy-winning comedy series. So check out that podcast, but watch Hacks streaming exclusively on Max and listen

to the official Hacks podcast on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. I was more into Betsy's story. She at least had a little pep. She was walking down the street. You know what? Betsy's a real bitch. My name is Betsy. You write a song.

No, you write a new song, Mae. Okay, here we go. Hi, my name is Jessica, and I walked to school, but on the way, I saw a bus. It was a yellow bus and on the bus was my old teacher who I hadn't seen since I was a little toddler hit song hit song you know what I could have done a lot better I'm gonna know there's no way to top what you did, Mae. Do you know what I take from this experience? Nothing. Because there was nothing happening. There was no song.

There was no rhyme. I think that my song has inspired you guys to write other songs. That is a positive twist. And it would be called an inspiration. Hi, my name is Betsy. And I have hands and I wave at people look it's joe the guy that has buttons i need to google to make sure he does work in a button factory oh my god where else if it's a bucket factory we're because oh no it is button factory oh thank god i will clarify one part of

the song please then it'll all make sense this part always threw me i was like why is why joe's wife coming in to the button factory it turns out it's his boss not his wife so it goes you guys no no we don't need to hear this hey we don't need to hear this again and i work in a button factory. Oh, wait, I got it out of order. Let me do it the right way. That's why it didn't sound familiar. Hey, my name is Joe, and I work in a button factory.

And one day, my boss came up to me. He says, Joe. I said, oh, wait, this person rewrote it. Never mind. This also doesn't rhyme either. I think people are making their own versions. Turning this off and leaving the show. This person says, I've got a wife and a dog and a family.

Oh, my God. I got a wife and a dog and a family. This reminds me of on SNL years ago. You know that Tracy Chapman song, Fast Car? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Chapman song, Fast Car? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. You're gonna have a fast car.

Fast enough you can fly away. You're gonna make a decision. Luke Holmes just redid it. Yeah, redid it. But on SNL years ago, they imitated Tracy Chapman sitting in her apartment in New York and holding her guitar and looking out of the window and just being like basically say what you see naming anything she sees that's funny i didn't see that yeah that was a good one i don't think there will ever be a moment in time that i'm in a conversation with

someone and a button factory will come up and it will give me the opportunity to sing about Joe. So I just want to say thank you guys for giving me that moment. You're welcome. And I want to say, how dare you push that terrible song onto us. People were mad at y'all a while ago for when y'all didn't know what bread and butter pickles are, just so you know. Were they mad? Can we say that? pickles are just so you know are were they mad can we can we yeah people people were saying that they were screaming into the ethers well bread and butter is a pickle you think there's my name is joe fans at home there will be a handful of people that say i know exactly what fortune's

talking about that was my favorite song from my childhood and then everybody else will be like i've never heard of that song i don't know why it's bumming me out so much to think about a kid who that's their favorite song oh no why is it it's so sad dark and depressing you guys kids love it because there's movement that goes with the song if my kids came home from school and we're like oh my gosh we just learned this incredible song my name is joe and i work in a button factory and i push buttons and i would call the principal well i would probably move them to a different school no i think that's a reasonable reaction you don't think kids are coming home going when you're sliding in the first and you feel a big burst diarrhea oh my god that just brought back so many memories see that's fun

of uh memories of your airbnb oh god yeah of having an explosion oh no yeah oh by the way not to change the subject but real quick please do please do please do yeah you told us a couple episodes back about the benefits of treading water for a long time yeah have you started i've done it twice now no how awesome does it feel it's really great i did it for 20 minutes each time fortune i'm so happy for you and when i'm in the water I'm like there's no way this can be like doing anything because it doesn't feel that intense right and I put on a podcast one day put on some music the next day because I can't just sit there with my thoughts for 20 minutes was it the handsome podcast you put on it was it was a handsome body and um and I was like oh that wasn't bad i set an alarm and uh to wake up last

you're treading asleep right last night i told jack's like five times i go i'm really sore and she's like i got it you worried but it it did more than i thought it did oh my gosh and it works your entire body and this is not a commercial for treading water but man do i try and encourage people if if they can find any interest in trying it out and it works for them because it makes my whole body not just feel stronger but like it loosens it up yeah i feel powerful even though i've done it twice i'm like i'm probably the strongest person there is probably we could wrestle each other after you work out i gotta do it for a while well and you have to move up to an hour at a time do you think you can even imagine an hour though

you for real doing an hour every single time and i've never ducked out one minute early and not once how many days a week do you do that i only do it when it makes sense i don't have like a workout regimen or anything um or schedule but um yeah i when i go on tour i bring my lesbian bathing suit and i um sweatpants a bonnet and a winter coat and my girls hiking boots so uh time for our question this is an exciting episode it's a very exciting episode we have a question from from an icon from your your good friend who's also one of the best actresses out there she's pretty good she's pretty good okay good terrible person but pretty good at acting uh she's an emmy and golden globe winning actress known for her roles in american horror story the bear american crime story carol

many many more she even made an appearance on my old podcast don't ask tig and i cannot encourage you enough to go back and listen to that episode cried laughing about listen to the whole episode but also find the video online of them talking about a gavel. It is this particular gavel that I hold whenever I'm podcasting. It is the wonderful, and I'm embarrassed to say that because we don't talk to each other that way, but she is wonderful. She's one of the funniest people alive, Sarah Paulson. Okay, this question's coming from her. Hey, handsome pod. It's Sarah Paulson.

And my question for you is, do you believe forgiveness is truly attainable? And it could be a multi-pronged question. Do you believe we as human beings are capable of true forgiveness? Not do you believe in forgiveness as a principle or an idea, but do you believe that we as human beings are capable of forgiveness? And if so, what does forgiveness look like to you? Okay. Look, I know I teeter up as one of the funniest people i know

i like it she's getting deep i met her once only once and uh i really ran up to her with the familiarity that i shouldn't have had did you and i went oh my god we both know tig and and but she was sort of at first a little bit affronted that I just run up to her. And then as soon as I said your name, she just like lit up and was so, so sweet to me. I think I met her backstage at that standout fest or whatever. Yes.

Oh, that Netflix thing we did? Yeah. I had never met her before, but I know so many people that are dear, dear friends of hers that I'm like, well, obviously we're now dear friends. Your best friend. She's like, I don't know you. Hello. Yeah.

Dear friends by proxy. She was very nice, but we just don't know each other. But I'm like, this person's your good friend and they're also my friend. She's like, great. Step back. Yeah. A security guard just comes and removes it can you please remove this woman but i'm friends with take two but she is such a treat to watch on screen and she has never not crushed it in an acting role oh my god and i truly she is somebody that i laugh so hard with it's stupid stephanie and i both we're just like when we have plans with sarah we're like we are in for it for a real good cackle

that's so good yeah those kind of friends are nice to have i don't think anyone says that about me i'm just trying to think if anyone doubt that i don't know if anyone goes we are gonna cackle i think i you know i usually got something going on i want to i want to get deep like yeah well now we're now you're in the zone this is your chance to get deep because this was a deeper question okay yeah i'll kick it off i'll kick it off about forgiveness i think well i like the the specificity of the question like is it is it possible really to fully forgive someone i i think i think it is uh but there might be like some scar tissue there and and things might never

be the same but I I feel like the evidence that it is possible is if you think back to like your 20s or something or or uh how do I say this like there's stories from my life that for a long time I couldn't tell the stories without being physically tense, telling them and my heart rate going up and feeling it in my body in such a tangible way. And then having then processed it and dealt with it and like felt the anger and then got to a place of forgiveness or acceptance. And that doesn't mean like staying best friends with the person. I can now tell the stories without having a physical physiological reaction i think that's like proof that you can actually let go of things in that way you know what i mean like imagine you get shot or something and then you know the wound heals over unless you can feel like you have to first feel the anger and the pain like you

have to go in and through the excruciating process of digging the bullet out uh so that the wound can actually heal because if you don't dig the bullet out because you're scared of actually feeling it then it'll slowly toxify your body over time that's my analogy what do you think sarah pulson well i think letting go is a big part of it which is probably the hardest thing for people to do right yeah because a lot of some people like really have their identity around holding on to trauma to being that victim and they don't want to whether or not they realize it or not subconsciously they don't want to let go of it because they've built who they are so far around being wronged, you know, so that that's a hurdle that some people have to overcome to truly forgive. to that person maybe or to that thing and like the anger and the resentment is almost it's it's still a connection to that person it's scary to let go of that sometimes and

but sometimes like forgiving someone and letting go is kind of that's the best revenge in a way i mean i guess to give sort of like a specific a specific example in my life without going too far deep into it um we want names we want names yeah well my mom I mean my mom just say it's about Joe and the button that's right my mom would say talk about this too and so it's not like a secret like our relationship has definitely evolved over time when I was young we just really got into it and and did not see eye to eye and like really struggled for a long time in our relationship and it was such a source of um pain for me back then and there was a time in my life where i was like i just don't know if we'll ever get over our the humps that we have and we kind of always have

this dynamic i don't remember it started when I was young but I don't remember exactly when where I was kind of felt like more of the adult and she felt like kind of more of the kid and I was always kind of the one like talking in the adult kind of way and and I remember I was moved the first time I ever like really realized like I missed my mom was when I I lived in Spain for a year and something about being far away from each other I go I really miss my mom and that started some of my healing towards those issues that we had and I had a very pivotal moment where I was moving to LA after I got from Spain back from Spain she's like I'll go with you if you want and I said sure so we'll take a road trip try to I had a very pivotal moment where I was moving to LA after I got from Spain, back from Spain.

And she's like, I'll go with you if you want. And I said, sure. So we'll take a road trip, try to, you know, reconnect and see what each other's like.

We hadn't been around each other much in a year. And we were walking through Vegas. It was along our way. And I talked to her in a way that was that adult talking to a child kind of reprimanding. And someone said, don't talk to your mom like that and um well somebody overheard you yeah yeah a stranger said that yeah and i go and i go i and i talked to her that way because i had resentment right had resentment from our issues i couldn't let them go yeah and when i heard that

i thought oh i had this light bulb moment of like if i don't let go of this resentment and this hurt and let her grow we'll never have a relationship yeah i can't and also her job was to be not the person you know she had to grow up too yeah crucially change i couldn't just forgive her without also there being some change on her part and it really changed our relationship we started from that moment talking to each other better seeing each other in a different light and i was like i have to allow her now to be my mom and me be the kid vegas does that do that vegas is so healing but we haven't had we're very close now a lot of people you know she's in my comedy a lot she's been on another podcast i do

that we that she's a big part of my life and we're very close but it was such a journey did you directly address like everything with her or is there some stuff that's just water under the bridge that you don't talk because that's my thing there's a lot of stuff i can't talk about um we will talk candidly about some things and go you know man that you know that was a tough time that was a really hard time and then there are other things she just doesn't want to talk about it's too hard yeah for her to talk about you know she she after my parents divorced they just both kind of took some time to find themselves and you know it was just a tough time and she doesn't love that time in her life um and and even now if i've tried to like touch on it and stand up she's like i don't

like that i don't like it's too hard for her and i get it i get it you know but um and does she let you do it do you continue to do it or do you drop the material i drop the like the big details of it and kind of just touch on a little bit of the yeah lighter stuff what if you found out one of two things one that she had paid that person in vegas to say that and hired someone or two that it was me who said that i was the stranger who said that and you took the cash and you took the cash okay the irony is that i was a good kid like i was a very like i was a good responsible kid i did everything i was supposed to do so it's when i tell you that story it sounds like i was a piece of shit no i was talking bad to my mom but it was just we had developed such a a weird relationship in that way where

i had to kind of be like you know reprimanding her yeah and um because she had not taken on the the adult reigns it for a few years and i had stepped into this other role and we had to shift back into our roles and it was it was a weirdly powerful moment like that if i had been in a different place with her i would have heard that and they're like you don't understand like our past case specific too because with like some relationships you if you decide i want to have this person in my life then that that's one thing. Then you kind of, you got, but other people, you can forgive them and still decide like, I,

I, I can't have that person in my life, but I still forgive them. Which I think that happens to quite a bit where people are like, I do forgive that person, but I'm moving on. I for sure have had that where it's like, yeah,

yeah. And does it help once you make that decision of like I can't have you in my life does that help you to sort of forgive them like having the space and well there's that I think there's also people I've forgiven where I've just been like yeah I don't care if you're in my life or not in my life or where it's just like I I'm just done. And, and, um, yeah, I think there's different levels of people where I was like, hard pass, toxic, no, thank you. Keep it moving. Then there are other people where I'm like, I feel like there's some toxicity there. There's a hard pass. No, thank you. But there's also like, I be around you you know i i get why

you are the way you are or the way our dynamic does not gel but like we were saying may before we got on this episode my ex that i was with during when my life fell apart in 2012 we were so estranged yeah it was tough times but now like literally last night our families were hanging out together the latest max and finn have ever been out at night we had so much fun and she texted me this morning just like we have to do that all the time yeah and it's the best feeling to like no so then you think like well if now you're so reaping the benefits of having that person back in your life then it's like i think i i even though i can have really firm or i'm learning to have like firm boundaries with people who i think are really bad in my life i i the door is kind of always open if they if the growth is there and they come

people are actually doing the work on themselves i there are so few people that are like irredeemable right in the in the world like as long as you're just protecting yourself and i find it a lot harder if people are hurting like people I love then I can go hog wild yeah and you don't want to see me go hog wild guys it's uh May's going hard while buttons flying well time certainly helps with a lot of healing and forgiveness and things and you have to kind of decide do I want this person in my life anymore um and sometimes you have a conversation with each other where there is forgiveness and you go thank you for saying that and i wish you well you know and yeah there's some i i don't have a lot of people in my life

where i don't talk to them anymore um but every now and then you just kind of grow apart or for whatever reason and the best thing is just like i do genuinely wish you well yes well and i think that's something that people don't understand is that sometimes relationships run their course and it's completely fine to cut that loose and it doesn't have to be dramatic it doesn't have to be uh ruthless or mean but it's just like this relationship is friendship work whatever it's just not it's not making you feel good anymore no and and i am all right super grateful though for like the forgiveness i've been afforded by people as well. Like I, I have an ex who is a very good friend of mine who like, cause really,

but I also had to do the conciliatory work of like taking responsibility for stuff. But Oh man, I'm so I, I try to think about that. And then also I, there's some quote that's like mercy, like real mercy is what you give people who don't deserve it.

Like, and that's what really takes effort but if if you can get there like it's uh it's a real physical relief on yourself it's even just from a selfish point of view like it is heavy carrying around that raging sense of injustice you know i talked to an ex of mine that um it was a little awkward because we are good friends. And I know I was not at all meeting her at the same level. And frankly, that's been many relationships of mine where I just wasn't available and I couldn't do I just wasn't capable. And I wasn't present. When you were dating? Yeah. Yeah.

Or maybe I didn't, we just didn't have exactly the same feelings. But I could really see how I was hurtful to this person. And it was like years i mean like so long probably over a decade after we dated that i like really was like hey um i just wanted to say something you know and just brought that up you know yeah and had a very uncomfortable where she was so open and kind about it but i just needed to say i know i hurt your feelings and yeah i was not easy and i am sorry yeah and i was just thankful that she was open to hearing that and yeah that's great well don't you think a lot of those like way down the road apologies are more for yourself for sure than for

the other person you're like i just need them to know a million I don't think I fully understood the ways that I hurt her right until I did some growing and changing and yes it helped me feel better but I do feel like the way she received it and said I think she even said thank you. And I can't imagine that was easy. Yeah. You know, and I could, I think it did land and it felt good to her to hear that. And that's always nice because sometimes, sometimes you're like, you know, deep down, like that it wasn't you per se. And then when someone tells you feel like a little less nutty you're like oh yeah oh my gosh

yeah like i'm so glad i wasn't like in or when there when there's people that are toxic that hurt you and you hear from other people how toxic and hurtful those people were that's so valid and you're like the juiciest feeling you experience that too like oh my gosh yes yes yeah but man you hear about these stories of like like restorative justice or like people who've had family members murdered and then they go to the prison and they're sitting with the murderer and saying i forget like that's pretty amazing and yeah yeah that's i'm always in all those people standing in a courtroom in front of someone that's murdered someone they love and when they offer that true forgiveness you're like that you had to dig deep for that it's pretty

impressive yeah yeah so i think i think there people certainly can reach true forgiveness a it depends on the person who's doing that forgiving. It depends on who it's towards. I think there's a lot of circumstances there. Yeah, and sometimes you got to do it without expecting reciprocity. Like just do it inside yourself. Yeah, yeah. Do you guys forgive me for before

when I improvised the song and it wasn't funny or good? Oh, I didn't hold any resentment towards you. I was impressed that you were trying to make your own song. I could take that, yeah. I guess, do you guys forgive me for... I still, I don't forgive you for Joe. Joe the button pusher. Can you please forgive me for bringing up Joe the button maker?

No. Look, I'm going to forgive you only so I can release myself from the anger. But I haven't forgotten. That is true. here no look i'm gonna forgive you only so i can release myself from the anger but i don't but i haven't forgotten that is true if you hold on to anger it is just not good for you yeah it's true oh my god great bumper sticker also by the way when you mentioned friendships running courses it takes me back to the old reason season lifetime what's that you guys never heard that no so you have friends for a reason a season or a lifetime friends come into your life for a reason you're both at a certain place in your life oh i have heard that maybe you're single and you can like

go to the bar together hang out or like you're missing something in your life and this person really brought something in that for that specific moment time you needed that person in your life uh so that friendship might run its course because it was there for that specific reason and now it's no longer yeah a season is just like oh i was really good friends with this person we hung out all the time and now we don't hang out because we're busy there's no hard feelings it's just yeah it's just like a season of your life and then the friends that are there for a lifetime like this is a person i've known forever we can go months and months and months without talking we pick up where we left off and that friendship will always be i like that and have you actually applied that fortune where you're like yeah reason season lifetime and then you just

i just text them just getting a reason season lifetime and that's all it says on a text or what if you you make a new friend and you send them like three check boxes reason season or lifetime they check which one and then you know going into it what your expectations are what they think it is but things change that's true. Things do change. You have some friends you think are lifetimers. Oh my gosh, it's crazy when lifetimes are seasons. And it fizzles out.

Yeah. But that goes with dating too. Reason, season, lifetime. I think you guys are starting to get into this rhyming thing. Well, yeah, and you need to because you sang an entire un-catchy song. With not a rhyming thing well yeah and you need to because you sang an entire uncatchy song with not a rhyme with not a rhyme reason season or lifetime because i believe in true forgiveness

i'm going to forgive you guys for trashing my button song do you i i don't know if i've told this on the pod before this little uh anecdote about a bird and stuff please is this a may fact sort of just that sounded so unappealing this uh little anecdote about a bird and stuff uh this bird um he forgets to go south for the winter because he's having so much fun he's partying and so he forgets to go south and then he looks around all his buddies are gone and uh he freezes as it gets cold his wings freeze so he can't flap he can't fly away and then a cow is walking by and um shits on him and uh this is a children's story i don't know who the target audience is, but he's now covered in cow shit.

And the cow war, it warms him up and it thaws him. But then, uh, he's stuck in the shit. And so this cat is walking by and he's going, let me out of the shit. And the cat gets him out of the shit and then eats him.

And the moral is not everyone who shits on you is your enemy. And not everyone who gets you out of shit is your friend oh whoa i was kind of good night night kids good night but it's good because uh you know with turn the light off forgiveness like you know not everyone who wrongs you is your enemy because you might learn a lot from them you could if you reframe it as like wow that really taught me something yeah i mean you can still learn something from people that don't shit on you no that do and they meant to yeah that's true you can for sure walk away going all right you can learn you can learn stuff from people shit that is true reason season lifetime but it also is helpful when other people in your life do admit to their part in it. Yeah.

It's really hard to move on or find some path forward when the one person, they're so wrong that they're like, I can't even face it. So I'm just like, not going to talk to you or we're going to have a dysfunctional relationship. It is helpful when you can bring your own awareness to the situation yes yeah and and in a sense of injustice is hard when you you want everyone else to when they have a strong narrative of why they're right and and they're they're popular they're out they're talking and you got you find yourself ranting to your friends being like but don't you understand about this and this person and then it you gotta let go

and be like yeah you gotta let go yeah let go and let god let go let god reason season lifetime man we're like dropping some nuggets today well should we hear what uh sarah has to say absolutely so i realize that i'm asking a question that I myself wrestle with. So I'm not quite sure that I will have an answer in a compact sense in terms of having gotten to the end of the process of what it means to forgive or what it looks like to forgive. Or do I think it's possible for human beings to really forgive? I think the truth is, for me, it lives somewhere in the space of, and it's not that it depends on the situation, because even in the smallest situation, I sometimes wonder if forgiveness is something we seek and therefore would like to believe we've arrived at, in, whatever the grammar would be

there. But I sort of feel like forgiveness feels aspirational to me. I'm not sure I've ever had it really settle into my body in terms of having felt that I've been wronged or harmed emotionally or intellectually or spiritually and felt that I was able to truly forgive, like purely. I'm talking about the purity of forgiveness in an almost holy sense. I've never been able to achieve it. And there is a part of me that has come to consider that maybe it is something to aspire to, but that it is maybe not something that I personally feel we are fully evolved enough to experience. I wonder if we think we have, and maybe I'm speaking entirely personally, which is what I'm trying to do here, which maybe I'm not doing very well, but the idea that I think I know what it feels like to forgive intellectually. I'm not sure I know what it feels

like to forgive completely and truly and wholeheartedly in my heart. I think sometimes those two things don't feel integrated for me. And this is one of those things that feels like it lives in an ambiguous space. So maybe I asked a question that ultimately doesn't have an answer. And I think that's okay too. And I also really might be speaking to a personal limitation that I have and that I would like to find a way to not be limited by. And at the same time, I sometimes think when we live in a world where people talk about, you've got to forgive, you've got to forgive, you've got to let go, you've got to let go. And although I think that is the most, probably most challenging thing in the world to do, but also one of the most significant things to reach for in one's life. At the same time, I just sort of feel like it sets us up sometimes to feel like we're failing if we're unable to, you know? And I, I wanted to sort of release myself and anyone listening from that feeling of failure if they feel unable to arrive at a place of forgiveness when they've been wounded,

you know? I don't know. That's, that's nice. Yeah yeah like i really probably need to hear that yes and i really relate to it's it can be infuriating when people are like you have to forgive and forget it's like i don't have to do anything like leave me alone like yeah yeah but uh it's got to be possible but no uh it it you can't no one can tell you to do it. You have to feel the anger first. And I think it's case by case. Well, I get what she's saying. It's like we think like, oh, yeah, we forgive and forget, move on. You might forgive, but there is something probably internal

that is holding on to some morsel of something to reach the highest level of true forgiveness where you feel where you're cleansed of it might be a level that humans as is are incapable of reaching aside from a small handful i have a fact oh boy so they did a study and um of all these different species like gorillas dogs uh all kinds of species dolphins and after they would get in physical fights they would all of them like have a reconciliatory moment later if they're in a little small community like they they would go and like hug later or have a moment except cats cats do not do it cats if they they wrong each other they're they're holding on to that they're holding on to that grudge or they're not

making up wow interesting well you know at the end of the day we all uh have a little ego involved in the hurt so that also makes it hard to fully move on i mean yeah it's no good if uh you're beating yourself up about it too i think it's a cool way to think about it like she um sarah said it being an aspirational thing that's a that's enough i think if you're if you're yeah having the having the aspiration of like i'm going to work towards trying to be better at forgiving uh to the best of my ability yeah that's very aspirational and it's also worth it to just have those very deeply uncomfortable moments where you have conversation with people because when you stay in conversation in an argument or all of that uh it

and you don't let the the bridge between you fall um it's it's really helpful and it's hard it's so hard yeah yeah i think that's why that ghosting became a thing because people did not want to have uncomfortable conversations they did not want to face having to let someone down or tell someone this isn't working out yeah i guess if you have if you force yourself to have those uncomfortable conversations it is for the best in the long run yeah It gives the other person an opportunity to grow. Otherwise, over multiple lifetimes, they're going to be inflicting psychic wounds on people.

That's right. Without ever evolving. They're going to just stay a cat. I think we also don't want to get on Sarah's bad side. Oh, one million percent. I agree with everything she said. Yeah, because I don't think

she'll forgive us. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, if she'd like to hang out. Yeah and i are since you guys are friends maybe she'd want to go hiking with you look give her your email give her your email my email no you and sarah i'll make sure to check my spam in case i don't hear back from Sarah. Okay. Well, we appreciate Sarah giving us such a lovely and thoughtful question and answer.

Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed. Thank you so much. We appreciate everybody for tuning in to this week's episode of The Handsome Pod. Some cool things. We're still selling merch.

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Handsome. Fortune, what do you have coming up? I have a lot of fun shows. I'm on tour. I'll be in Washington, D.C. And then for my European folks, London and Amsterdam, the end of January. Madison and Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Wisconsin.

Oh, Fortune. I forgive you. Wisconsin. Oh, Fortune. I forgive you. Wisconsin. I forgive you. Houston, Los Angeles, New York City, and Toronto dates are all up there. And I'm doing my next special in Seattle. Those tickets are up for April. Go to fortunefeimster.com for tickets.

Nice. Well, I'll tell you now if anyone cares i'm gonna be in peakfield new york on march 8th uh and then i'm also gonna be in maryland uh i don't have that in front of me but i think that's january or february maybe April. I don't know. Also going to be at Largo and Dynasty Typewriter here and there. Stephanie and I have, we did a show the other night called She Said, She Said. And I heard about this. We sat on stage together and I talked about our relationship and family and everything. And then she chimed in with her thoughts and then the audience would chime in with things that they related to about what we were talking about it was really fun and I think we're gonna continue to do that yeah that's great I got very little

to say for myself except this comes out on the 15th and on the 16th of January, I'm at Largo with a very exciting surprise guest. And you two are going to do it. That's right. We're going to be there as well. I have it in writing by a text that you guys are down. You're going to,

so that'll be all three of us at Largo. Yeah. That'll be super fun. We're going to blow the doors on that joint. Yeah. Also make sure you go to tignotaro.com for any shows i'm forgetting and apologies for any cities that are like what i thought you were coming i am i'm i'm probably gonna be there i just forgot all right until then

handsome is hosted by me, Tig Notaro, Mae Martin, and Fortune Feimster. The show is produced, recorded, and edited by Thomas Ouellette. Email us at handsomepod at gmail.com. Follow us on social media at handsomepod. What a podcast! What a podcast! What a podcast!