Happy Sad Confused - Al Pacino

Episode Date: December 8, 2014

One of the greatest actors of all time, Al Pacino is a great storyteller and a fully engaged human being. Al joins Josh to chat about his film The Humbling, wrestling with fame after The Godfather, the infamous scene in Heat, and much more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Visit square.ca to get started. Hey guys, Josh Horowitz here, and you are listening to Happy, Sad Confused, because you have great judgment and you manage to click on whatever device you're holding in your hand, whatever computer laptop is in your lap. I don't know how you did it. I don't know how we all got here together, but we're here. And welcome to another edition of my weekly interview podcast. I hope you're having a great holiday season, guys.

Hope you had a good Thanksgiving. And things are going well here at Happy Say I Confused Headquarters. And by that, I mean sitting in my apartment on my couch. That's our kind of headquarters. Well, also my office where a lot of the interviews that you hear on the podcast are done. But things are going well because, frankly, the guests are boggling my mind. And this week's guest, I feel like I say this every week. like, oh my God, we've reached another level, whatever.

We kind of have. I kind of feel like I've peaked 30-od episodes in because I got a visit in the office recently by, and yes, there are the sirens. You know the sirens are always going to pop up during a happy second-fused intro. Anyway, the guest this week is Al Pacino, which is crazy.

Why is Al Pacino coming to my office to talk to me? what has happened to the universe? How is it fractured in this way? I don't know, but here we are, guys. In fact, this is kind of Al Pacino's second appearance on the podcast in a weird way. I mean, not in a weird way, it happened. If you go back in the archives, you'll see something I called a short, a Happy Second View short episode, which we haven't done since.

But I was so excited when we got about a 15-minute interview with Al, Mr. Pacino, back at the Toronto Film Festival, that I decided to post it because he's freaking Al Pacino. Well, flash forward a couple months, and he's out there promoting a film called The Humbling, which, as you'll hear in the podcast, is directed by Barry Levinson, one of the great filmmakers out there who's worked with Al before. And he's trying to get the word out, you know, just like any other actor. It's also, it's award season, and he's been mentioned in those conversations, as any great Pacino performance does. So, you know, I went after this one, and for some reason, there he was, sitting in front of me for about 40 minutes, and that's what you're going to hear today. He was and is awesome. He's fully engaged.

He is a great storyteller, and my God, he's lived a life where he has a thousand stories, and these are just a few of them. And yes, we hit upon some of the big ones, whether it's wrestling with fame after the Godfather, the infamous scene in heat. There's a lot of juicy stuff in this podcast. I wish it could have gone on longer, but hell, I'm not going to complain about 40 minutes with truly one of the great actors of all time. Before we plunge into the interview, guys, a quick reminder. Hit me up on Twitter, Joshua Harrowitz. Go over to Wolfpop.com.

Check out all the great podcasts there. There are forums. Let me know, let us know what we're doing right. And, yeah, I guess you can let us know what we're doing wrong, too. But on to the main event. Here is Al Pacino sitting in front of my confused face for about 40 minutes as I try to wrap my brain around how I'm so lucky. Enjoy. Around November, October, mid-October, the end of December, I've often said the talkies come out.

it's like there's movies all year but then the talkies come but one's certainly worth talking about yeah and then they all kind of and then there's this rush and everybody is so it's been you're trying to say well I'm here too so you put your hand up and there it is so you get out and about and you start it just didn't used to be this way

it's this way now it's fine but I mean it's got to be a source of pride and something you can lean on is i mean i know in watching this film the humbling it's a it's a great piece of work it's a fantastic performance it's harry levinson it's buck henry it's all these amazing talents that have come together so i mean at the end of the day you can you can think of that and think that you produce something worthy i know that that's why you sort of say well you feel somewhat justified uh and and and and because it it we got it we put it together and here it is and so it's good to hear that thank you for your encouragement i i mean

it's it's a it's um i mean phil broth is a tough guy to adapt clearly and i know this and this one kind of started with you well yeah well the thing it i think that that helped a little bit was that the idea that it was about something that i i felt i'm familiar with you know the world i come from have spent all these years doing and so I thought gee if I'm ever going to adapt a novel into a movie this would be this would be a good start because at least I know the subject I know the world that it comes out of and I and I remember purchasing the book I got the rights to it and then I thought well now I'll go to Barry because I go to Barry Levinson with everything he's a good friend to lean on totally he's just got it you know and i i love working with him

and so i i went there and showed him the book i and and i had a feeling he was going to respond to it yeah because it's it's a world he knows to so then that's a good start and then afterward you start the legwork you know and how how do we do it where do it who do we get to write it you know because this is philipraith and you know with books you have to adapt them it's not it's you know it's it's a film so films are different than books and you you have to find the film language and we both thought that uh buck henry would be a good choice of course he has that innate uh sense of things he has a way of looking at things kind of awry ironic yeah he knows humanity and the business you can sort of comment on both and and i i think the idea of an actor sort of going down the drain but at the same time uh wanting to give up acting and be become a human being so to speak amuses him it amuses me too so it that idea to start with kind of kind of touched us in

that area of funny yeah and uh and it plays as such definitely yeah yeah yeah and we're And that was how we started it, and it broke through in the text, and it took a couple of years, and finally we found it, well, how do we make this movie, so it isn't having to be people with a lot of, I guess they call it, it's called names, territories, you know, get the amount of money to do it. I said, I don't think that's going to work, because this depends. on a collective that is really people that understand this world and come from it and want to do it, want to participate. So how to do it.

And we got Millennium to back us in Avi Lerner, who is not used to making these kind of movies. But he was sort of very encouraging. He said, oh, go ahead and try it. And then we did it kind of real independent. Yeah, I mean, that's part of what I appreciate and love about it, the fact that you, I mean, you and Barry, I mean, you know, obviously as in some respects mainstream and acclaimed as you can get, you're making this movie, this real clear labor of love, like, in what, 20 days, I know it's not even a continuous shoot. You're kind of piecing it together, just a couple million dollars. Like, you don't need to do things this way, but because it's so important to you, you'd make it work. Yeah, because, yeah, I think we felt as though this is something we know, and we have an opportunity to share that and get that out. there and it would have and we we it excites you to be able to do something that you you have a

like they say that word a handle on but it could go from there you know if you that's that and and it was fun exploring it too at the same time because you got to keep experimenting and that's what barry levinson does he just keeps throwing things out there that are different and he's ever changing so no matter how long he's been around he's He's, you know, he does movies on cell phones now, too. You know, he's, he really is, he's going through a phase, I guess, that's, and I'm very lucky to be, you know, tapping into that with him, you know, that, that, that's a good guy to have around. Totally. Because he's, he's very open to things, and he allowed this to happen.

Of course, we did in increments, like you said, and that was, uh, it's got to be a challenge, got to be, it was a challenge at the same time, I like to make, movies. I make my own, I occasionally have made my own little movies. I call them little art pictures that no one will see and that's the way it should be. No one will ever see them? 50 years from now. You work on a movie, you really work on it, you put it together

to say, gee, you know, I like it, but I don't think anybody else will, so. But wouldn't it be cool to make it work on a movie and not open it? I think that would be really fun. Hey, man, it's pretty good. Yeah, let's not open it. That's a powerful. We're enjoying it too much.

powerful sense of withdrawal. Wow. That's fortitude. I think the first line of this one, if I'm not mistaken, is this actor hearing like the 10 minutes to showtime kind of call. I'm curious. I mean, obviously, you're still very much a creature of theater. I know you're going back next year. When you hear that backstage, what goes to think to you feel something in your stomach and your mind and your heart when you get the call that you're about to go on? well I guess there are times where you're so tuned in to what you've got to do you're wondering why haven't they called 15 minutes yet you know and then finally they once you're through with all your rituals and and you're having to go up there on the wire walk across the wire you're sort of trying to get prepared for that right because that's uh that's a do or die experience you what are the rituals that you well we all do them I don't know sometimes on certain nights they multiply depending on the mojo

in air and you just say oh my I'm going to need all my bag of tricks I'm going to need everything I can do I think we were fortunate

in the film because you have the character I play in the dressing room to start the movie looking in the mirror talking Shakespeare and coming back

and wondering how did you get how real was that he's telling himself in the mirror and finally and he takes those masks

the tragedy comedy and he puts them together and I thought gee we didn't plan that but in a sense that's what this movie is it's a tragic comedy yeah

if I eaves dropped on you if I saw you in the week or two before you're as you're prepping for a movie are you talking to yourself at him are you kind of like what are you like in that kind of prep well I'm talking to myself when I'm not doing a movie or a play

I just do it You get a point where you just say Hey I'm just going to talk to myself Who cares? Sometimes if you're walking in the streets Especially in New York City My friend and I always used to say Do you think it just came upon him today

To start talking to himself When you see one of those people walking by It was like how long So you can only gauge how long He's been street walking and talking And there's nobody else there The loneliness sets in Pretty much just say

Oh screw it I'll just start talking and something will happen. But, yeah, you know, you do sometimes. I used to worry about it. Sometimes you say, oh, you're going to. But now sometimes I just, if I'm thinking about a role or something, I just say, fuck it.

I just start talking. Sure. You know, and after a while, you get a kind of seniority license because they probably say, there's Al, he's doing a part. He must be working on a part, and they're right. You can get away with all of them. it now you might as well let it all hang out you let it all go see they understand they've seen me before um i'm privileged that you've come by come by to my office in midtown new york

pleasure and uh i mean i'm a i'm a born-bred new yorker i know obviously you grew up in the city here uh you you don't make your home all the time here now because of your kids right you're that's right i have my my youngest children are in los angeles and i split custody with my acts and so there it is so when you i mean obviously you're recognized wherever you go, but in New York, is it a different kind of recognition, a different kind of interaction? It used to be, but now it seems to be

everywhere I go because of cable. You see, I think that's a big thing, cable. They do your, and if you have broad-based movies, movies that sort of have a kind of a good variety of people.

So, it's amazing. It's wonderful. But New York, of course, It's Al from the trucks, from everywhere, from the streets. Every time if you don't know me and you see me on the street and I'm talking to a few people, you can rest assured I don't know them. We've met and we're talking about things. And that's New York, which is great. Was that something that, I mean, I've talked to a lot of people here that have wrestled with that pivot of, you know, dealing with fame and dealing with, you know, when you suddenly become a recognizable figure.

And obviously, you experienced it in a huge way. Was it, did you handle it well at the time, do you think? Well, not when it first happened to me. I was very young, and it was like very, it was very strange. Two, the world was different, and fame wasn't in your face all the time. And the awareness that it is today, I mean, kids want to be famous first before they've done anything. You know, it's like, it's the cart's a little before the horsey. Yeah.

But back then, it was like being, it was almost like being, I was shocked, as my friend used to say to me, when we'd meet people in the street and he'd come up to me and ask me for an autograph something he said oh you look surprised and i was still like surprised i thought what did i what happened and then you have to compute that yeah so that's where we were at those days you know i'm talking like 40 years ago sure and uh now now it it's the cameras because that changed everything, you know, because you, you start to see that it's really excited, everybody's got one, everybody's got a cell phone, so you're taking selfies all the time. I like this guy, though, in the old days, I remember once crossing a street, and this guy comes up to me,

and he says, are you Al Pacino? And I said, yeah. He said, congratulations. You look like you ought to take that over a selfie any day yeah yeah that was very original it made me smile I mean do you kind of like lament I mean you kind of alluded to this our notion of celebrity is much different now clearly it seemed to be based more

on a direct correlation between talent and celebrity and now we've all types and yeah it's it's well it's just it's exploded it's exploded the last 10 years especially and you like to see people

you know it's fine if somebody's a celebrity over whatever they do because it takes a certain amount of ingenuity to get to that level anyway where you can be famous for doing nothing so you had to be able to focus on how to do nothing and become a celebrity so it takes a certain amount of talent

to do it but the idea of the young ones wanting to be famous first that that's what's motivating them that that's what's inspiring And that's a little tricky. One would like to get it from another angle if one wants it. It's a funny thing about that. Because anonymity, as I've always said, is something you don't know you have until you've lost it.

And then it's a different thing. And there's something to say for getting used to it, being famous and living with it. And as my great friend and mentor used to say, Lee Strow, for galling you simply have to adjust and what's the other option yeah where's the other option I don't know

I mean the given take of that of course is like again back in that crazy heyday when it all first exploded and the run of films was like it seemed like classic after classic after classic you must have felt I mean you must have felt a sense of invincibility though too I would think I just felt too but

you know I didn't feel I was responsible I mean I didn't make those movies the godfather please i didn't make it i was in it one would argue a significant factor that's that's i'm glad to hear that that's very pleasing to hear but somebody was asking me the other day about the 70s which people seem to want to talk about the 70s when they see me i'm like gee that means something you know that means uh what have i been doing no it doesn't know actually but i do say that uh well i said the 70s I would talk about it

if I could remember it right and because I am huge patches of things that happened to me in the 70s certainly I wasn't really aware of the effect it has and

happily so I wasn't because I kept going back to the theater I kept my friends the few friends I had and that that That kept me, if not literally sober, you know, psychologically sober, to what I was in relation to the world. I kept trying to do that.

But I was sort of, I considered myself shy as, as a matter of fact, somebody I've known from before saw me. Apparently, I was on some red carpets because they've been coming my way lately, you know, oh, there's a red carpet. I said, maybe I see a red carpet. I just go to it. But I think someone said to me, I knew, and she just said, I liked you better when you was shot. That guy's still there. I thought, gee, I mean, who is she saying? I said, you know, the fantasy is what I mean.

Right. The fantasy just starts to it, you know, it takes on up because she knows me very well, too. So for her to say that, I thought she, you know, she's on the Internet. She sees that. and people then interpret it or they give it they endow it with reality but it's really

I'm out there because my movies I happen to do two at the same festival you were there when I did two which was a not a good coincidence I have to say and you've got another one coming in a few months I just saw the trailer for you

I don't have to go to any festival I think too at that movie I wonder what it's going to be like to promote that because it seems like it's a kind of an easier film to it's more audience friendly right has i think more of an audience than these because of its uh content and the way it's expressed sure it's a good it's a nice movie yeah yeah bobby color valley amazing great uh and then and then of course christopher plumber what he's like you say to him i mean talking about another guy it seems

like a kindred spirit of man who it seems will be acting until they drag him i don't really i don't really know how he does it i must say to do do it with such alacrity and such joy. I think he's our greatest actor. Do you hear the truth? Hello, friends. Time for a special little message just for you. It is the holiday season. I know

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Just use my coupon code happy with the first purchase. That's harries.com. Enter the code happy, $5 off, and start shaving better today. You, it's funny. You mentioned Strausberg, who obviously comes up a lot in conversations with you. It feels like you have, I wonder if it comes from the mentorship you got from him, but some kind of desire or need to mentor others. I mean, we talked a little bit in Toronto about Jessica Chastain,

who obviously helped, and she gives you full credit for kind of helping launch. Oh, she does she ever, a little bit too much credit. You know, you're sitting there and you look at this gift in front of you and you say, am I looking at a prodigy? You know, that's what I was looking at when she auditioned for Salome. It was something to see. Yeah. But is there a desire? Does that bring you joy to kind of like mental?

mentor in some way, younger actors in whatever way possible. Oh, yeah, if I'm helping someone just through, you know, as long as we take the title of mentor away and just say, I'm talking to somebody who's got less experienced than I do, and maybe I have something off of them, sometimes they'll remain nameless, but some of the young actors I've met who you can see around them are people that you can tell, don't quite understand what this is. is yeah and occasionally i'll talk to them and uh it's not enough really if if you're going to do it you have to go all out and do it it's not a you know you just don't mentor somebody and and it works with a couple of sittings or a couple of suggestions i don't think so you have to be there a lot yeah i mean how did you navigate that because i mean i were you just lucky in who you surrounding yourself with and my great friend charlie lawton who was my real mentor and who passed the way about a year ago and he was uh he was what kept me together i mean as a matter of fact

he got me off that wild thing i was on in the 70s right my dad and and he got me to understand and relate to it and admit to it yeah and i think that was why i'm still here no doubt about it and i mean you've talked about this a lot obviously if you look at the filmography there is that period in the 80s where you took a very conscious step backward i took about four years off In hindsight, did that, did you need that? I did. I did. It was a wonderful time. It kind of coincided also with, like, frankly, the kinds of movies that were being made probably weren't necessarily your cup of tea anyway. The 80s aren't known necessarily for the high point of...

Well, you know, it mainly was a kind of... I thought that I was in this thing that didn't seem to stop, and I didn't get back. And then I moved back a little bit to take a look at the painting. You know, when you're too close to the painting, you can't see it. And those years were really invaluable to me. But I got back because I was, you know, I needed the coins. Sure, sure. You know, you can live four years for so long.

Right. Without finally saying, wait a minute, you've got earned some money. It's impossible, of course, in our times it go through, like, all the parts I desperately want to. But just to mention one in, like, famous scenes that will live on forever. obviously heat, which is just a remarkable film, and within that film is one of the most compelling sequences ever. I mean, living up to the hype of putting you and Robert and New York together is a tough thing to do. I'm just curious what do you remember about shooting that scene in particular the diner scene, of course, where you guys never actually share a frame, but yet have an amazing

interaction. With Bob, who's so smart, and I naturally thought we'd rehearse, and he said, I don't think so well let's not rehearse let's just wait when we're there and then we can do it there and turns out he was totally right you know it just made such a difference to be able to do it right there

in the moment you know so does it feel like electric in that moment because watching that scene you feel it I don't know it just feels like magic yeah well I remember seeing it I haven't seen it in a while but I remember seeing it thinking wow it's funny because I mean

I think of that director, for instance, Michael Mann. And I think of, like, some of the most significant filmmakers you've worked with, you know, they're difficult as a, is a too strong a word. But they're hard-edged guys that know what they want. I think of a diploma. I think of Oliver Stone. These guys don't suffer fools. No. Is there a commonality?

Is there any in the ones that you've gravitated towards? They have their eccentricities and there is different as anything I've ever got, people I've met, there's different from. each other, you know, but they do have their idiosyncratic things, as we all do, generally. I mean, it's called aging. They just get more pronounced

as we get older. Yeah, we start talking to ourselves on the street, you know. But I think, yeah, they do have. I know that sometimes you look at Michael and, because he is really a great, I mean,

what he did with the films he's made, some of these films he's made. I mean, what can you say? Yeah. And with Heat, I mean, this is a, this is a, you know, this is a movie that's been done before, right? Yeah. What he did with it.

So, because he had that feeling for it, or the inside of it, which I was lucky enough to be in, with Russell Crowe and what he did. But, you know, you start to get a little bit, sometimes you start to see it. And with Michael, which is interesting, I mean, I remember saying, he would say let's do it again

he would say let's do it again and I finally wound up saying a lot of actors will say why Mike what do you want he said no don't worry about it it'll be fine just do it again but you know you're in the hands of a master

right so in a way you do it again but you know that he will formulate something he's looking for something so let him let him go in that way yeah and so so so so so that's one of the perks with working with

those kind of people because like a Barry Levinson for instance you know he's got this built-in sensor and even Warren Beatty who directed me in a movie you can just trust that

intelligence that sensibility you know you're in the hands of somebody who's going to see it frees you a little bit totally you start to Well, I can do pretty much anything because I got a censor here who I can trust, you know, his taste. And, yeah. You obviously know actor can work with everyone.

But, I mean, it's kind of surprising, like, as many of the greats that you've worked with, like, for instance, like some of, especially the New York iconic filmmakers for whatever reason, you know, Woody or Spike or Marty, I know there's talk of that still. I just don't know how I missed them. I don't know what it is. but I guess you know so much of directing is casting and when they see somebody

in a role there's wanting to work with somebody the differences between wanting to work with somebody or are they right for the part? I know that these directors

have even voiced how they would like to work with them but unless you sort of fit into their the great ones anyway they're sort of their idea of the movie you're not going to get in

because that's first for them what they're doing. Is the Marty film The Irishman still something that's going to hopefully happen? Yeah, yeah. I know it's been in the ether for a bit. That's right.

It's a wonderful script. You know, Steve... Is it Zalian? Or Zaliyah? Oh, man, he can write. Yeah. He can write.

And this is such a great part for Bob. And it's such a great script. It's wonderful. You got Peschi. You got Bobby Conner Valley in it. It's interesting.

When I spoke to you in Toronto, that was when the world discovered that the most unlikely Marvel movie fan was Al Pacino Guardians of the Galaxy. Oh, yeah. Have they come calling since? I met with the Marvel guy. You know, I thought, you know, it's a marvel how things happen, you know. But I was saying it in passing because my little ones took me to see it. And I was so impressed. And also, you know, it's my new pet thing that I.

I talk about is doing things on big screens. Let's see movies on big screens again. How do we do that? I know it's hard, but you start to see other things, and it makes certain demands on the audience and the filmmakers, and this is a kind of mutual experience thing. And seeing this Marvel picture, I was saying, I'm going to go see another picture with my kids,

so I'll just sit there and think about other things. Either that or frozen for the fourth time, probably. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I tell you the truth, with this movie, I was taken up, and it was just inventive, funny, both. It was strong, the sound, the music, the production of it, ingenuity of it. And I was very impressed with it. So I remember someone mentioning it to be in Italy or something about it. I said, oh, that's a great movie.

End of story. It was all over the Internet. I know. As though I wouldn't, why wouldn't I like a movie? I guess that's true. appreciate a movie like that. I'm not necessarily going to be in it, but at the same time, you know,

there's value to it and you can see. So have we willed something into the universe? You said you talked to, was it Kevin Feigey, the head guy at Marvel? Yeah, yeah, oh, yeah. You think something will happen? Well, I would imagine either there's something he feels is right for me,

and if I feel, you know, here we go. There's Kevin. He's offering the part right now. Every time we talk about Marvel, that's kind of things happen. They've got there. De Niro and Marvel are listening on all times. Well, I hope that comes to the past. It would be a trip to see you in one of those sort of movies.

I mean, it feels like, when you look at the filmography, do you like, do you feel like, are you proud of your batting average in terms of selection of material in terms of like? Well, I don't know, you know, the periods we go through in life where, you know, the cycles we take. And sometimes I just stop listening. I stopped listening to my sense of things and you know you sometimes just it depends on how you're how you're built in your mind

and sometimes you just go do something because it's time I'm tired you know in movies especially take care of you you say yes to a movie you know oh say you go through the old things and finally say okay yes I'll do it the next thing you know you're in a nice hotel

you're being fed, you're going out, you know, you, you, it's, it's being done for you. Yeah. And, and I think that sometimes you're seduced into that. Yeah. And usually there's different reasons. Sometimes it's for money. Sometimes it's because your, your life is in a, in a certain place and you're trying to, you're trying to escape from it, you know. Right. Right. Right. It's funny how, like, for some reason, in acting, somehow the audiences are less forgiving about people. taking roles work for money like as if it's this is the practicalities of life sometimes where like people

you know but it's certainly time there are certain expectations and certain artists and you want to see them continuing that basically so I can understand the reaction when you go off you go off message a little bit

right and but nobody sets out to make a bad film of course you know you really are now I did this movie looking for Richard, which was my idea. And it's doing those kinds of movies and being lucky enough to do it. And I had the finances to support it. But I did two or three movies while I was doing that movie.

You can see the various looks I have if you've ever seen the film. But it is a movie done out of a need. And then I did the Salomey stuff. which is still floating around, eventually will make its way here. I hope. And Jessica Chastain is worth the price of admission right there. She's worth going to see her in that. This is her great role, great role for her.

When you're on a set nowadays, are you, I mean, what turns you off? I mean, you talked about directors that knowing, like, you have that comfort zone, and that's obviously got to be the best thing. When do you know you're in trouble? When do you know, I'm going to. have to kind of... Well, I'm doing a lot, when I'm doing a lot of small talk on the set,

I know I'm in real trouble. I'm telling jokes or whatever. Because, you know, it's a very private thing. Movies are exhausting in another way. Fear is exhausting in the fact that you're doing ridiculous eight times a week. They should outlaw that.

And the other, in a movie, it does drain after a movie. Usually, in the old days, but today's world, the kind of movies we make that are, which we call, I call them the talkies. Like I mentioned, come around in November, December, they all start coming out. Well, when you make those movies, usually you have six weeks to make the movie in. And more than likely, no rehearsals.

So it's pretty hard to get drained because you really got, you got to do these scenes. Right. I did a movie where, you know, the director was calling action. and while we had the scripts in our hand doing a little read-through. Just toss them away quickly? What happened? I think they should call all the movies I make rushing.

It's funny because you want to... You understand it at the same time because there's a pressure to do these things and these people are good people. I mean, they're trying to make a movie, but they're being squeezed. So to compensate, I keep saying, well, let's at least then have the right.

rehearsing. You know, Lament, I made movies with Sidney Lament. And Lament used to shoot five, six weeks. He's out of television. That's how fast he was. But we had a month to rehearse the movie. Right. That's, you know, so you've got the buildup, so you can tape the fast, the fast shoot.

Especially the way he shot, though he so knew what he was doing that it was talking to his camera operator. Who I met him, did dog bait, camera operator for dog day. And there's another movie, for instance, if you want to see what

Lamet can do, if you see dog being on a big screen, you'll see. It's like, you're there. I mean, he puts you in that street and you start, it's kind of very special.

Did you happen to see the new, the documentary, the dog? I didn't. No, I missed it. I missed it. Interesting. You know, I never got to see him the guy. I just thought it wasn't, it wasn't. It wasn't the thing to see him. And I got to know

Gavork him after I played him because I thought, well, he went to prison. I'd rather talk to him not in retrospect, you know, not him remembering. Whereas in Serpico, Frank was right there, you know. We were dealing with the whole thing. I have to say one thing Frank said that I think

is one of the most interesting things I've ever heard. We were in Montauk and I was working on the park. And Frank and I were in separate, I was with them all the time, we just sort of, and I enjoyed it too. You know, I mean, there were times he would always sit with his, not with his back to the door

if we were at a restaurant. He had that big 9mm gun there, and he'd face that door. Well, that's that's, that's, that's, that's, it's killed in the lilia. But it was still impressive. And then I remember him,

we're out at Montauk, sitting on a deck, looking out of the ocean. And finally, I said, said a kind of plumbly and question, but I thought, why not? I said to him, Frank, there you are in the midst of all of this. Why didn't you just take the money? Take the money and then give it to charity. And he looked at me a long time and he just said, well, if I did that, who would I be when I listened to Beethoven? And everything else doesn't matter when you're just yourself. Who would I be when I listened

to Beethoven? Wow. Now that juxtaposition, that image of it, the question that him coming up with that thing was, was who that guy was. You know, he was very smart. Did that role put you in any danger yourself?

Did you ever feel at risk thanks to him? Well, when I was that age, I was young, I was running up the stairs with the cops. I thought, then the mid, mid-flight, going from the first floor to the second floor, one of these tenements, I thought, what the fuck am I doing? I don't have a gun, and I'm not a cop. But I got the feel of it, you know. And so, and finally I just said,

okay, we're going to back off that now. I'll release you into the wiles in a moment, sir. But I'm just curious also like, you know, you mentioned that our period of the talkies right now, some really quality flicks out there. Are you, I mean, what I love about you and many reasons I love about you is that you are an appreciator of the art, of the film or form of great actors like Jessica, et cetera. Who's on your radar right now? What films are on your radar or anything? Well, of course, I saw a Birdman,

which I thought... This is my Birdman action figure. Wow. I mean, it was, you know, it's not often you go to a movie and you see stuff you haven't seen before, ever, you know. And so that was really uplifting. But at the same time, he's playing an actor. And that's what I'm playing.

And we're in some sort of weird, warped competition of something. But the truth of the matter, is you've seen both films so different and one's I think I think it's

I think Birdman is kind of a satire which we don't get much of here in America movies that have satires of that significance you know it's got real

so I was very engaged with it and thought wow and then I saw what else I see I saw this kid

be really good in the Hawkins movie the pod. Yes, Eddie Redmayne. Amazing. He really does a good job. Then, I don't know, let me see.

You know, you get those screeners. Yep. You don't want to look at them. You don't want to look at them. You want to go to the movie. Of course. But then you get sort of like cozy at your house. He's just put it in.

But as soon as you put in that movie and you know you can pause it, forget it. You're done. Yeah. That's in your head. So how are you going to give yourself? because it takes a certain amount of giving of yourself to a movie. Why not?

I mean, you've got to. I mean, it's not made that way. Movies aren't. I mean, the movie seats are softer than the theater seats. You can lean back. It's a movie. I mean, you can sit and enjoy. You want to be entertained.

You have popcorn. It's literally the last refuge of like where we don't have seven devices around us, like, competing for our attention. It's, I mean, it's that or church, I suppose, at this point. I mean, it's, we need that. Well, it is a form of getting together. Movies a form of communion. And I mean, and we lose, we lose sight of that.

And that's why it's good to go with my kids when I go, because I'm in there with a crowd, and you get in the movie. I feel that way, but I'm going to wind up watching some screeners. Just too busy talking about myself, you know. Or talking to yourself on the street. Yeah. Here's my unsolicited recommendation, whether it's a screen or a film. And as an actor that's been compared to you, and that's Clive Prey's, is Oscar Isaac in a most violent year.

He's so wonderful. It's a great film, and it feels like it could have been made back when you and Lumet, et cetera, were making films. It's a good one. He's a pleasure. I met him. I know him a little bit, and he may be in a movie. I'm going to probably produce. Nice.

So, there you go. I can't thank you enough for coming back today. The humbling is another added to a very long list of the very best performances that you have contributed to the amazing medium that is film. And thanks again for stopping by, man. Oh, my pleasure. It's been great talking to that. Pop. Pop. Pop. Pop. Pop. Pop. Pop.

Pop. Pop. Pop. Pop. Pop. I'm Anthony Devon. Executive produced by Adam Sacks, Matt Gourley, and Paul Shear. podcast, and we are ecstatic to break down late summer and early fall releases. We have Leonardo DiCaprio leading a revolution in one battle after another, Timothy Salome playing power ping pong in Marty Supreme. Let's not forget Emma Stone and Jorgos Lanthamos' Bougonia.

Dwayne Johnson's coming for that Oscar in The Smashing Machine, Spike Lee and Denzel teaming up again, plus Daniel DeLuis's return from retirement. There will be plenty of blockbusters to chat about two. Tron Ares looks exceptional, plus Mortal Kombat 2, and Edgar writes, The Running Man starring Glenn Powell. Search for Raiders of the Lost podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube.