Happy Sad Confused - Ari Aster

Episode Date: July 16, 2019

Few filmmakers in recent memory have begun a career with a 1-2 punch as provocative and memorable as Ari Aster. Last year he disturbed audiences with "Hereditary" and this summer he's taking them on a decidedly long and strange trip to Sweden in "Midsommar". Ari joins Josh this week to talk about his beginnings, his unique sense of humor, and Albert Brooks? Yeah, you read that right.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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none of you are safe. New episodes every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now. Today on Happy, Sad, Confused, the dark and depraved horror and comedy of filmmaker Ariaster, director of Mitzumar. Hey, guys, I'm Josh Horowitz. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad Confused.

Yes. new exciting filmmaker Ari Aster is the guest on today's show. If you haven't heard about Ari yet, you've presumably heard about his films. He's made two features thus far. Both are excellent. One is currently in theaters, and both demand your attention if you're a cinephile. One was hereditary. It came out last summer.

We had Tony Colehead on the show, Tour de Force performance from her, and one of the most haunting, visually spectacular debuts in film I've seen in some time. and now he's followed it up with the similarly memorable Midsomar starring Florence Pugue, Jack Rainer, Will Polter. This is a crazy movie that you've probably heard your friends talking about if you haven't seen yet. It is definitely well worth your time. I've seen it twice.

Yes, twice. I'm that kind of crazy guy. And to reveal a little bit of it, it's basically about a couple who is clearly not meant to last. It's a breakup movie of sorts. They end up going to Sweden for a festival, and the shit hits the fan. Things go badly.

Things get really, really bad. It is dark. It is weird. It is bizarre. And yes, it is funny. It's very funny. Ariaster is a unique new voice in cinema. And I think you're going to enjoy hearing from him today.

He's somebody who, I think you'll be able to tell from our conversation. We share a lot of sensibilities, a lot of the same reference points. And I really, I couldn't be more interested and optimistic and excited about both the films he's made, but also the films to come in a what's sort of be a long and interesting career. So a real pleasure. If you're a cinephile, if you're somebody that's watching, kind of like the next wave of great filmmakers. Keep up with Ari Aster. He's making some really quality work and Midsomar is definitely worth your time currently in theaters. Beyond that, what else to talk about so much? I'm just back from Los Angeles for another quick little adventure. I think I can say this now because the interviews are done. I covered the new Quentin Tarantino movie and I've got some really exciting stuff on its way for you guys. I sat down for MTV for for an on-camera interview with some guys you might have heard of,

Leonardo DiCaprio, Brad Pitt, and Margot Robbie. Yeah, that's kind of cool. That's even for a jaded cynic like myself, that's a cool day at the office. That's a really, really fun, interesting interview, a rare chance to talk to some folks, you know, Brad and Leo, they don't do that many interviews. So I was very, very honored that they agreed to sit down with me,

and I'm really happy with the way it went. I think you're going to really dig it. that comes out next week, just in time for the release of Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. I also sat down with Quentin Tarantino. Yes, I can tease it. He is the guest on next week's Happy, Sad Confused. And that is a fantastic conversation with one of the smartest big brains in the history of cinema. So well worth your time of another big, important filmmaker coming at you next week, Quentin Tarantino.

And by the way, the movie's great. Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, one of the best of the year will surely be at or near the top of my top ten list. It is, if you love Tarantino, you're going to dig it. Trust me. Beyond that, headed off to Comic-Con this week. Yes, another year, another adventure in San Diego where I'll be talking to a thousand people and trying to stay coherent and upright for a few days. As I talked to the casts of all the big movies and TV shows that are visiting Comic-Con this year, It's going to be exhausting and crazy and hopefully a lot of fun for both me and for you guys if you're following along.

So all those interviews are going to be up on MTV's MTV News's YouTube page and social media accounts. So follow along. If you can't make it out to San Diego, at least follow along with me on my misadventures at Comic-Con another year. That's all the preamble for today. Let's get into the main event. This is Ari Aster, writer and director of Midsomar. and hereditary. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to happy, second, fused, spread the good word.

And here is Ariaster. Ariaster has entered my office. I was just saying, big fan of your work, a big fan of this new film. And as I understand it, are you sharing a part of your birthday with me today? Oh, yeah. It is my birthday. Yeah. I feel like I should have, like, the, the Midsomar, like, mural behind me of, like, a,

cake-eating Ariaster, like just some kind of self-referential birthday horror show for you. I should have brought it from my house. Your own collection? Yeah, I've got plenty of photos of me. I'm sure. Eating cake just all over my wall. I'm sure. Well, congratulations on the new film.

So there's a lot to talk about. First, I mean, I know from the sequence of events, this has been a much different kind of experience for you than hereditary because by the time hereditary kind of got all the think pieces and all the reception. you were knee-deep in this film. Yeah. So has this been, in some ways, more enjoyable? Is this more of the, the way you imagined the process of releasing a movie to be? In some ways, I feel like I'm, I don't know, like chemically incapable of enjoying anything, but... Why, you're welcome here.

It's going to be 45 minutes of self-loathing from two people here, guys. Strap in. Yeah, exactly. If anything, it's been an opportunity for me to kind of engage more fully with the release of the film and with the reception and get, like, more defensive. Really? Well, you know, there's something about especially making a film because you're relying on so many forces outside of yourself

that you can only ever really get so close to whatever you're intending. And so for me, every time the feeling that comes up is like, I just want to go right back and do it again and do it and get closer, get even closer. Right, right, right. So the release is always kind of, there's something depressing about the release. Well, it can't live up to whatever, whatever's in your brain. I don't even know if there is something in your brain, an idealized version of how this plays out.

The reception? Yeah. No, I mean, maybe. It's really more, I guess there's an idea about how people will decipher it. Because you know, look, you're self-aware enough to know these first two features are not going to be everyone's cup of tea. Of course. They are divisive films. They are provocative films.

they are by design by design yeah so to think otherwise to think that it's going to be like Avengers Endgame yeah it's is not the right path but like but to me this is the optimal like reception oh no oh no of these films oh absolutely I mean I feel extremely fortunate and of course like the they they are by design yeah uh like polarizing kind of they they they draw a line of sand and, like, you know, plant themselves on one side of it. Yes. And I think, yeah, I think there's something,

there's like a, the punkish part of me that's, like, writing that movie and then, like, directing that movie. Yeah, and then when it releases, there's, like, you don't want to admit it, but there's a part of you that just, like, everybody. Yeah, everybody like me. Yeah.

Never mind the pro. Can you all just team together and just say you want me? Exactly. But now I'm kind of gearing, well, not gearing up, but I'm deciding what the next project will be and they're all equally kind of like... This is what you are.

They are a middle finger. They're all, it's like which middle finger do I want to present next? Well, it's funny because like, and we'll get to this, but like, it took me this long to go back to your shorts. Like, I haven't seen your shorts before getting ready for this podcast.

And for anybody that thinks like, oh, this is like a, he's just becoming like a fucked up filmmaker and these are just, this is a new, like, he's been doing it from the start. And if anything, those might, be more subversive, insane, provocative works. So this is a theme that will run clearly throughout your entire body of work.

It would seem safe to say. Maybe, unless I one day just make a Adam Sandler, grown-ups three. Yeah, I mean, I would love to make grown-ups three. That would be great. Yeah, when you have to really just pay the bill. Hey, look, I love me some Adam Sandler. So we'll talk to me a little bit about, okay,

So when you walked in, I asked you, from what I gather, you're a New Yorker now. You actually were born in New York. But you didn't come of age here. Well, no, I didn't come of age. I was here until I was around seven. Then I lived in England for a few years. And then I guess I came of age in New Mexico, in Santa Fe. spent a long time there, when, you know, junior high, high school, and I think, I think like the end of elementary school and then college.

Do you consider that home if someone asks you where you're from? Do you say New Mexico or do you say New York or England? I consider myself a New Yorker, but I think I think I probably am equally New Mexican. I don't, I don't know. When I lived there, I didn't love it because I kind of, I loved the city, and then I liked England, and then all of a sudden I was in the desert, and it felt like a declension to me. And so I really didn't like New Mexico while I was there. My parents are still there, and whenever I go out there, I like it a lot more.

And so I think the older I get, the more nostalgic. I feel about the place. And I really like Santa Fe now. But when I was growing up there, I was going, I was just, I was like going stir crazy. It makes sense. I mean, given obviously what you've made your life's work and like where your sensibilities are, like to have like all the trappings of New York torn away from you as a seven-year-old for as lovely as I'm sure New Mexico is, it's not, it's a different thing.

and clearly I mean like your first memories of going to the movies must be here in New York like were there there are here in New York they're especially in England

because that's when I was like really fully I when my obsession was like you know it had fully formed by the time I was living in England and then

you know and then New Mexico I was always kind of bemoaning how slow it is there and um just

like the lack of action but um and also i was you know i was like a fat kid who who had a debilitating stutter and so i you know i i think ultimately it was very good for me as far as my trajectory is concerned because i just stayed at home all the time watching movies and reading books um and then writing screenplays got i i guess there are a lot of filmmakers who kind of grew up making Super 8 movies, but I didn't have the confidence to ask anybody to help me make movies, so I ultimately just...

You were writing in your room. I was just writing scripts in my room and going to like screenwriting conferences from like, you know, from the age of 12 or 13. So was there a great love of movies in your family? Was there like beyond just every family watches movies, obviously, but was there an inordinate obsession with film outside of you?

Yeah, well, my mom is a poet, and she used to be a visual artist. She is a visual artist. She's just, she moved kind of exclusively to poetry recently, or not recently, for the last 20 years. And my dad's a drummer, a jazz drummer. He used to be an R&B drummer. And I went to the movies with them a lot. My mom and I are pretty aligned in our tastes.

I'm sure my taste was informed to a large degree by hers. And so, yeah, I mean, it was this thing where, you know, every Friday I would go to the video store and I could rent a couple videos and then we'd like see a movie on Friday. and if I and if I and if the movie wasn't good like that ruined my week I was like I wasted my movie was she exposing you to films that were beyond your years a little bit like I mean that that that seems to be something that often happens for for kids especially people that end up in this industry that become that that really become obsessed with it is they see a David Lynch movie maybe a couple years too young et cetera yeah I mean I that's definitely the case I I mean, some of my favorite films are films that I saw with her are pretty young.

I saw the piano teacher in theaters when I was like, it must have been 15. The big ones were like Mulholland Drive, songs from the second floor. The ones that I saw in theaters, like Dogville. And then there were just a lot of things that I discovered. on my own, you know, um, from a, you know, an early age. And some of them were things that I, I definitely saw it too early. Like, I've talked about seeing the cook, the thief, his wife, and her lover, which, like, destroyed me. Um, and, uh, and, you know, kind of became obsessed with Martin Scorsese from, like, the age of, like, 10 and just, like, you know,

wanting to be him. I was going to say, was that, was that the first filmmaker that, like, you went down the rabbit hole and just sort of really dove deep in the filmography? He was, yeah, Yeah, he was the big one for me. He was, I mean, there were so many when I was young. Like, you know, I mean, kind of all the usual suspects when I first wanted to be a filmmaker. And it was, I don't know, Scorsese, the Coen brothers, you know. Hitchcock and, you know, Kubrick and all, you know, all those guys. And then there were, you know, it's just, it, there's like,

this long circuitous road you take. Well, one but gets five others, right? Then you hear that, like, their five influences, and then suddenly you're in a world of cinema as opposed to the New York filmmakers, et cetera. And then you disown certain people early on that you, like, rediscover later. Like, Spielberg is very cool to, like, kind of hate as a kid,

and then you come back to him and you realize, oh, he's actually the best. Yeah, I feel like I've gotten back and forth on De Palma, like, five different times in my life. Yeah, well, De Palma's a fascinating case because, like, there are certain things that you can, like, kind of never embrace about him. Yes. And there are certain things that, like, you can dismiss them, but, like, to your peril because he is, like, you know, who does a set piece better than Brian De Palma. Right, right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Unfortunately, it was, unfortunately, because by the time I started doing this, you know, he, you know, he's not making the best work of his career in the last 10 years. I'll say that. And by the time I was talking to him, and he's always been, like, an irascible, like, tough guy. Oh, yeah. You know, and, and by the time, like, I interviewed him, it was for, like, that movie, like, redacted, which is not a great movie. I know. And it's just, like, you want, yeah, because, like, I mean, he's, whatever, I could talk endlessly about him.

I'm sure you saw the Noah Baumberg doc on him a couple years ago. I did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and it's just, it's so much fun to listen to him talk. And, you know, I mean. yeah he's made a lot of weird ones but what did pauline kale say that like about um bonfire of the vanities

that like it's a terrible movie that only like you know the most talented person could have made you know that like he makes like only a genius could have made exactly i'm i'm literally i'm literally reading a devil's candy right now have you ever read that book that's like the making of bonfire of the vanities oh no i haven't read it oh you should check i'm about halfway to it right now it's a very famous like julie salman i think was the author who had like unprecedented access like total access to the production. And of course, it's infamously one of the most, like,

a huge debacle from start to finish. Oh, my gosh. It's a good one. Well, and not long after that, he made Carlito's Way, which is such a great movie. Such a great movie. Such a great movie.

So the early stuff you're writing as a teenager, I guess my question is, like, you know, you mentioned, like, your sensibility was very close to your moms. Like, are your parents and friends and family, when they see your films now, are they, like, shocked? Or are they like, oh, yeah, that's, that's, that's what he was into.

That's the kind of stuff that he would pursue. My parents or my family, well, no, my, my, there's nothing strange about it for my family. Like, this is, this is the kind of thing I've been doing since I was a kid. Yeah. So they, yeah, I think they find it, you know, more or less kind of funny. But, I mean, I don't know. I mean, yeah, I feel like most people who know. know me and know my sense of humor.

Yeah. It all makes sense. Yeah. Okay, so jumping ahead, you end up at AFI, which must have been an important experience to kind of the transition from cinephile to professional. So like before that, like I guess bring me up to speed. Like, how did you end up at AFI and what is AFI? Is AFI the defining experience that really gives you the tools to make this year living?

Yeah, well, for me it was Because for me, you know, I I did I studied film in undergrad at a school called the College of Santa Fe Which doesn't actually exist anymore It's been, it's been It physically exists but it traded names

I don't know what it is Absorbed into something or whatever okay It's something else now It's the Ariaster Institute for what the fuck happened I don't know Yeah It was a liberal art school. Got it.

Or as I like to call it, a finger painting school. So I spent four years learning to finger paint. And then... I went to one of those. Yeah. And, you know, you just... You beg people to help you on the weekends, make your movie, and you don't really have a crew, and you're sort of doing everything yourself.

Yep. Which doesn't actually teach you how to direct. No. If anything, it teaches you how to, like, produce, right? Right. Um, and so, uh, AFI was great because, um, all the fellows, they call them fellows are, are in certain disciplines. Yeah. And I was a directing discipline. I, I, I was a director there. Yeah. Um, and, uh, and, do they, do they have, do they expose, is that one of those programs where they expose you to

the other aspects or when you go in as a director are you like, you're there to be a director? No, you, you, you go in it as a director. and you you are there to be a director, you have to first AD, you know, two projects for every cycle. It's a two-year program. The first year you make three cycle films, these three shorts.

So the year has been split up into thirds. And the quality of every cycle film kind of dictates how your work is perceived. and who you get to work with because the best people, the best people. The, the, the, the, the people who make the films that, you know, the most people like, sure.

Tend to attract the other people that are the most attractive. And, and that was very useful because, I mean, you make a cycle film, then you play it for the whole school, then you just sit on a stage as the whole school just rips you apart which is really good and valuable

in a lot of ways and then you spend the second year making your thesis film and after you became the strange thing about the Johnson's that was the strange thing about the Johnsons or as it was originally titled Like Father Like Fun

Flash It's like, okay, so for those that don't know, and I'm a latecomber to this too, this is, it's a, for a short film, I mean, it's a 30-minute film. It's like, it's pretty ambitious. The premise is basically a son who is molesting his own dad, who's manipulating and abusing and sexually abusing his own father, which, obviously a comedy.

But it does feel like it's, it almost seems to me like it's a brainstorm session where it's like okay let me just think of the most like inconceivable fucked up idea like that like yeah you could possibly imagine let's see if there's a story there is that somewhat close to what you I mean like how much of it was like I'm gonna I'm gonna be a provocateur and see where it leads me I mean that's pretty much what it was I I you know AFI is sort of perceived as like the industry school and they are preparing you for the industry. Yes. And, and when you first, you know, kind of, when you first come in, they sit you down and they play some of the thesis films that they're the most proud of. And they were all very, very, like, well-made, solid films, but they all kind of felt like Oscar movies.

Like, they were just very strategic and, like, you know, Triumph of the Human spirit, politically correct to like a stifling degree. Yes. And, and... If anything, sounds like goaded you to go even further. It'd go to me and I was just like, what's the worst thing I could do here?

And then, you know, I turned that into an exercise to see how compelling and palatable I can make that. Right. And so it started as an exercise and then... And, you know, and was fun. There was a lot of opposition. But ultimately, I did get to make it there.

So to their credit, they actually. To AFI's credit, I was able to make the strange thing with the Johnson's, a.k.a. Like father, like fun. Now I'll never be able to think of it in the, except in that title. I also watched, was it Munchausen? was fascinating in many respects as well in that it's curly a riff off of Pixar shorts and specifically the famous classic up montage

which is so beautiful and it's a really beautifully made film like what you've made is like this like silent montage that is despite appearances is also like wholly subversive underneath and is really about a mom trying to cling to her own son in the worst way possible, I guess.

Also has Rachel Brosnahan in it, who you had in a couple of your shorts. How did that collaboration, friendship, whatever happened? Well, I first worked with her on Munchausen, and I had cast Liam Aiken, who was friends with her, and so he recommended her and he pulled her on, and it was a smaller part. but she was so good that then I wanted to write something for her and I wrote a short called Basically for her I saw that one yeah which um which we were able to do uh we shot that over a day and a half so there's a day and a half shoot

a day and a half long shoot and then she was in New York the next week um on Broadway uh doing the big knife with Bobby Conavale um and uh And so, yeah, I haven't worked with her since, but we're good friends, and I'm really excited to see everything she's doing. Inevitable that you're going to do an episode of Marvel with Mrs. Maisel. That's something I would want to see. Yeah, I mean, they're really, they're banging my door down. You never know.

So, I mean, you know, I think by now people are listening, I think they're starting to get a sense of your, the comedic side of your brain, like the subversive side of your brain, which, like, is funny because when Mitzumar started to screen, and as somebody that was clearly engaged in it, you were probably aware of this, like, there was this debate, like, wait, how much are we supposed to be laughing at this, right? And I saw it again over the weekend, and, like, I don't know, like any film that has, like, the line,

I think I ate one of her pubic hairs delivered in that way is a comedy in some respect for me. If you're not getting that, then you're missing something. Were you, I guess, were you aware, We talked about this kind of at the start, but I'm curious, like, what was your interpretation of, like, how people received the film at first in terms of just, like, how comedic it was or not? Did you care how people, do you care how people interpreted in that way?

Do you, what? I mean, I find it funny, you know, and it's, I mean, it's interesting to see what people find it. funny and what people don't find funny. I thought that a lot of hereditary was funny. It's a little bit more buried maybe. Yeah. Because it is a heavy movie. Yeah.

But for me, part of the pleasure of that film is absurd stuff being, like, hanging really, like, heavy weight onto really absurd things. You can't even really see just how zonky it is. I mean, what happens to Charlie and Hereditary? Like, I find that kind of funny. It's, you know, there's something kind of ridiculous about it, but it's, you know, it's awful. Well, it's funny. When I, when I, when I, and I've seen Hereditary a couple times, too, and every time I've watched it, I tend to somehow, and admit what this says about me, I tend to watch it through, like, Gabriel Burns' characters' perspective, and it's like, that movie should be called, like, the unluckiest husband and father ever.

Like, I feel so, that guy and what he's going through, that's a tragic comedy right there. Yeah. I mean, you can say the same thing about Jack Rayner and Mitzimar. He's just... Right. Except he's kind of an asshole. He's kind of an asshole, but, yeah, he's kind of a dick.

But, I mean, I think most of us have, you know, been on either side of that line. Of course, we are totally aligned with Florence Pugh's character, so he is, for all intents and purposes, the antagonist and the foil. Right. And so the movie is, you know, it's all kind of gearing up for a certain kind of catharsis. But, yeah.

You've talked about, so this is, you've talked about this in terms of a, well, actually, let me start with Heritory, and then we'll get into more midsummer stuff. So, okay, so Hereditary, the first feature, what, like a $10 million budget, something like that? Do we have that proxam? That was really about six. Wow, okay. Yeah. So is that a big?

moment, like first day on set, like $6 million budget, Tony Collette, Gabriel Byrne, like a really nice cast of people, although a lot of your crew I noticed was like first features as well. So that's like, you've got a blend of veterans and newbies.

Was there a sense of like this is what I've been gearing up for? This is where I'm meant to be or like, holy shit, like I'm not ready for this. What the fuck have I got myself into? Before you're shooting, there's a feeling of like, holy shit, am I ready for this? And then once you're on set, you just have to, like, it, it, it comes by so fast, it's, it's all about.

Yeah, it's just, you have to, you have to finish your day. Yes. And so from the minute you start, it's just a sprint. And so it, it's no longer something that you can kind of be in your head about. Right. And, I mean, it was amazing because, you know, I, I kind of held off for a long, time. Hereditary was like the 10th script I had written and and then I wrote a couple more after that, you know, and because, you know, while I was trying to get hereditary made and, um, and

everything I was writing was just too big to do on a, on like a really small, modest budget. And so I didn't know if I was ever going to be able to do one of these movies, the right? way. And so, you know, with Hereditary, I was given the resources to do it the right way, which is an amazing gift. And I don't even know how it happened because, you know, who hangs that much money on sort of an unproven. Right. Well, again, you'll get the shorts and you can see it in those as well. Well, and that was, there were years where I was just thinking, like, what am I doing with these shorts? Like, why am I doing this? And then, you know, by the time Hereditary was getting going, I realized, okay, I, I, because they didn't play.

many festivals you know two of them played the new york film festival but none of them got into sundance yeah it was it was it was you know kind of a depressing slog of putting my you know putting everything into these short films and they're very hard to make because you're everybody's doing favors so they're dragging their feet and you're you know you're you're making films out of pocket and and and so there was this feeling of like what what is the point um given that they were you know not really going anywhere. Johnson's had a weird life online. Right, the viral life.

Yeah. But by the time we were making hereditary, it's like, okay, well, so this was a long, circuitous road to this, but, you know, but no regrets. How much are, so I've heard you talk about this a little bit in respect to Mitsumar, and I'm sure you were on hereditary as well, but like how much are you thinking about genre and genre expectations when you're either writing or correcting?

I mean, like, for something like, Hereditary, are you thinking in terms of, like, I'm making the Exorcist or I'm making ordinary people? And, like, how much are you thinking about, like, what the audience is thinking when they're sitting in a theater? Well, Hereditary was an interesting case because I wrote it after I had tried to get a few other features going. There's one film called Eddington that's set in New Mexico that I still wrote. really want to make. Probably not next. But I thought that was going to be my first film. And it was this kind of ensemble,

noir, kind of contemporary Western dark comedy. And I spent a long time trying to get that going. And it almost went like three different times. And there were two other features that I was trying to get going.

And I finally was like so tired of, you know, not getting there, that I, I began to think strategically, which I had never done before. And I thought, well, a horror movie would likely be easier to get made. And I love horror, so why not? And a showcase for a, like, a name actor. Like, I'm sure Tony was attracted by that kind of a character. That's probably part of the algorithm, too. I, well, sort of. I mean, that, that, that occurred to me after I had written it, really. But for me, it was just, you know, I like horror movies. Why have and I have written one, and then everything I write is kind of fatalistic and dark and bleak.

It's not going to be so hard for me to fit that construct around what I'm interested in. Exactly. Those things, you know, which are otherwise, you know, kind of a deterrent to financiers and audiences, becomes a virtue in this genre. And so hereditary was, you know, two things. It was an exercise, me wanting to write a horror movie. that I would like and then it was also extremely personal

and I was putting a lot of my own life and a lot of my own feelings into that movie and so it was a matter of how do I marry these two things in a way that

kind of in a way that honors both all the way through and And, you know, it's funny, Mid Samar is the only film I've ever written kind of on commission. You know, I was approached by a Swedish production company that read Hereditary. They wanted, they wanted to make a folk horror movie set in Sweden. Right.

And they came to me saying, we want you to do with Hereditary what, you know. we wanted we we want you to do with this what you did with hereditary and so at I had never kind of taken a job before and I wasn't really interested in it I just wanted to like do my thing yes but I was going through a breakup at the time really wanted to write a breakup movie and as an exercise I imagined like what would a breakup movie married to a folk horror film look like and it it like opened up the breakup movie for me to the point where I really wanted to write it. And I actually didn't even want to take the job.

But because I had, because, like, the movie kind of formed in my head, I, I thought I had to. You were against the principle of taking the job on a side, but, but, but wait, this is actually opening up a whole world of ideas for me. Exactly. And luckily, they gave, they, you know, they gave me all the freedom in the world and, and they really allowed me to make my film and, and, um, there weren't other stipulations like, and the antagonist needs to end up inside of a bear at some point

No, I mean what I brought to them was this, was, I brought to them this like, I said like I want to make a breakup movie that like happens to be a folk horror film. Yeah. And it's like in the close of a folk horror film and I came to them a week later with the entire story, with the prologue

and then, you know, and then just everything that happens to each of them and then the ending. I didn't quite have the bear suit. But I did have, you know, one character sentencing another character to death. Right. I don't want to be too spoiler. Let me put up the disclaimer now.

We're well enough into this that we can talk about some spoilers, I think, for people out there. And, you know, I will say you've said this is, at least inspired by a bad breakup you went through. It must have been a pretty bad breakup. I've seen this film. Well, it was a painful breakup because it was a long-term relationship ending. Now, did you give a heads up to the significant other that you were writing this? Like, have they seen this? Are you in touch with them?

Or they... Well, I'm, you know, I really want to respect her privacy. Sure. And so, like, I've been not talking about it at all, but I will say that it didn't just end. like it kind of started up again and then like by the time it started up again like the script was written and then it did end you know after so so you're saying there's a chance for a sequel she's aware she's aware but at the same time i you know uh the characters are not in any way surrogates of she or i i put a lot of myself into danny yep but it was very important to me

that people be able to relate to christian even if they don't want to kind of relate to his situation. So, yeah. But I do, you know, I mean, I wonder, you know. I love that you mentioned the other day among the influences, it didn't even occur to be, but you mentioned Albert Brooks's modern romance, which I haven't seen it a while, but as I mean, I'm, you know, as you might expect, I'm a huge Albert Brooks fan. He's my hero. I mean, he's one of my heroes. Defending your life is, I think, the best romantic comedy ever made. I might agree with you. And I love that, like, I don't know if you noticed, and I think you tweeted about two, but one ripped torn passed away last week.

Suddenly everybody came out of the woodwork, and I didn't even realize it was like, oh, everybody appreciates that performance in that film as much as me. Because, I mean, I knew Larry Sanders was going to come up, but him in defending your life is just next level. Yeah, which is where, I mean, like, I mean, that was pre-Lary Sanders, you know?

Yeah. And it's, it's just, it's the funniest, the funniest, like, supporting performance in any movie. ever. He's so amazing. Rip Torn was just amazing. There's nobody like him. They're all in that too. They're all just fantastic.

And then he kind of plays the same character in Larry Sanders. This is true. Yeah, yeah. Kind of the most just like the best sycophant in the world. Like the most like the most adorable sycophant in

the movies. I wish I could remember verbatim but the exchange in defending your life of like when Albert is asking him what were you doing and he keeps saying you wouldn't understand and he finally says this non-sequitur

like gibberish and Albert just says I don't understand it's just one of my favorites and then when he's eating the thing he's eating like he's eating his food and people in Judgment City

have the best food in the world and he wouldn't you wouldn't like it and he says it tastes a little like horse shit right too good and now Albert is tweeting at you. You've made it. Mr. Albert Brooks is a close personal friend, apparently, by a social media. Definitely not, but I, I, I, but not for lack of trying. Do you feel,

but in all seriousness, I mean, I've talked to filmmakers that have been talking about your work the last couple of years. Like, I'm sure you've had filmmakers reached out to you in email and in meetings or whatever to kind of, like, do you feel kind of welcome to a club to some degree? Um, you know, I think I have the personality where if I, if I were standing in the club wearing the member's jacket, I would be, you know, waiting to get in. But, uh, yeah, I mean, I, some people have reached out and I've made, you know, friends with certain filmmakers in the community, I guess. and it's exciting. I haven't totally processed it, and that's also because Hereditary did come out

and I was, as you said, I was in Hungary on the ground prepping Midsamar. And so I wasn't able to like experience that because I was already like in the water and the water's up to my nose. And I'm just trying to survive this new film. And so this is the first time I've been able to kind of take anything in. But at the same time,

We finished this film a week before it was released. Right. So this is literally the first time to exhale. Exactly. And I'm doing press. I'm doing press when I'm not, I haven't made peace with what the movie is because you've just finished it. And anybody who makes films knows that you don't finish.

No. You are ejected from my room. And so it takes some time to like come to terms of that. And so I'm starting to come to terms now after I've done all the press. after I've said all the things I regret saying because I didn't have time to think about it. And, you know, for me, the thing that I'm starting to get my head around, which is, you know, the dream come true is that I'm making films.

I spent 10 years trying so desperately to make films, and I spent my entire adolescence and childhood, like, dreaming of it and thinking about what that might be. and it looks like I'll have the opportunity to make a third film. And so I'm extremely fortunate and grateful. And on your, you know, budgets withstanding, like, on your own terms. Like, it seems like, you know, in a certain framework, you can probably make the kind of movie you want,

at least the next couple times at bat. Like, you've got a couple more times at bat, definitely. And it's probably in this for the long haul. I mean, but it's, um, Yeah, it's, yeah, I mean, well, I mean, as much as you can enjoy this, you should start to enjoy this because it's, it's well-deserved. Here's a spoilery, absurd question. Do you own a Will Poulter face mask? Do you have, who owns that?

I wish I did. I don't own anything. I don't own any of the miniatures from Hereditary. There are, yeah, there are no props, no, there's nothing. So where did that go? Where did the Will Poulter approximation of his face go? And don't forget the necropants, his skinned penis and legs. Well, that obviously Will kept just in case.

Yeah, those I might be wearing right now. I was going to say, this is his birthday costume? Yeah, my birthday suit. You don't want to go to an Ariaster birthday party, guys, trust me. No. No, unless you want to leave much lighter. but so we don't know where it is

no I don't know where it I imagine they're in a warehouse somewhere I know that that Millie Shapiro has been trying to get her head from hereditary and some you know there are there there are monsters out there

who just won't give it to her are you worried about running into Alexander Scarsgard one of the most notable Swedes he's a New Yorker he might just punch you like if he sees you on the street Like, how is you're standing in Sweden right now, as far as we know? I mean, I, you know, I've got my fake mustache for when I leave the house. Has it been released in Sweden?

Is there any... It has been released in Sweden. And I think so far the reception's been okay. I mean, sweets, you tend to have a pretty good sense of humor about themselves. There are certainly some Swedes who won't. And, yeah, I mean, I... I wonder what the overall reception is. I'm getting some vague word back that it's doing well there

and that the Swedes find it funny. I would just be aware, if you're invited to some kind of special festival there, like under mysterious circumstances and you get off the plane and suddenly things take a turn, like I wouldn't put it past them to, again, you ending up in that bear suit. I mean, if it happened, I would deserve it, given that I should, of all people, Exactly. As you're being burned, the last words was, I should have known.

I kind of respect this. So of the, you were saying before, I mean, do you have, like, of the 10 or 12, like, scripts in different forms, are there $100 million budget ideas in there? Like, how big are the big ideas in there? There's one sci-fi satire, sort of an ensemble. satire um satire being a very

dirty word I should find another word for it if I'm going to get a green wits out and people love

that's yeah but uh but uh that that crowd pleaser

that that that that will be expensive um otherwise they're all they're all bigger than

they're in the bigger than some and smaller he doesn't want to limit his own budget he doesn't want to say it's like I can make them all for 10 million because then they're only going to give you 10 million I mean I made the

I made Mintsimar for 10 and I and that was so hard it was a tough production of everything I've read sounds like this was about the limit for you it was logistically the hardest thing I've ever experienced and I I would like for every movie I make from here on out to be more

comfortable than that. So does, are you going to be tempted by like IP at all of like, like, are you going to even take meetings with the, the Marvel DC Star Wars? Do you like, do, I mean, does the kid in you like want to take that meeting just to like hear out people that, I mean, that's nice to even be thought of in that company? Yeah. I mean, and, and I, I've received some really enticing cool offers and I certainly want to hear what the offers are.

I am self-generating. I have so many films I want to make that I've made or that I've written rather that are very vivid in my head and I just want to like put them out. Yeah, I just want to make them. But as we know from the Midsomar experience, look, someone has a framework.

Maybe it's married with an existing idea. Maybe it ignites some new idea. Exactly. You know, and that also kind of happened, but that also did happen while I was really struggling to get something made and I needed some money. But of course, that ended up being something

that felt very close to me. And the reason I made it second was not because I owed them that. It grew into something that I felt very close to and I really wanted to make. And I felt like I just had it in me to make next. But, you know, I mean, I'm starting this production company with Lars Knudsen.

And you're going to do some TV as I understand it too. I'm interested in TV and I'm excited about supporting projects I believe in and, you know, I'm especially excited about making movies that shouldn't exist. Yes, yes, yes. So I, you know, I'm, I'm excited about what that will be and so never say, never definitely want to look at everything that comes my way. But it'll take a lot to sort of pull me away from these projects that are sort of on the tip of my tongue that I'm ready to make. And as a fellow cinephile, I'm sure you're as aware as anybody to see like filmmakers that you've

respected be lured into payday is a horrible term. But like, but those opportunities, which you can't begrudge anybody to like get to play with those tools. But sometimes they can really derail a trajectory for somebody so I'm sure you're as cognizant of that as anybody but there are I mean so many of my favorite films are studio movies well I mean you see what no one went from Memento to working on the largest scale possible and he's married it there are there are ways to make it work no I mean absolutely there there there are so many examples I mean yes you can easily point to yeah like disasters and you can you can point to you know like a total flowering of potential.

So, and then you look at like, you know, let your head explode too much, but like you look at something like the Coens, who I can see you kind of working in that, in terms of your comedic sensibility, like, and they have pretty much consistently, Hudsucker proxy, notwithstanding, like worked on a similar budget level

for 25, 30 years, and it's just like they're able to execute brilliant vision after brilliant vision on their own terms. I mean, and I would argue with. I would never, ever, ever, ever liken myself to them in any way, but I will say that they are for me. The model.

The model, they are for me, like, they're the best filmmakers working. Yeah, the most consistently, like, brilliant, yeah. Yeah, I mean, and, and yeah, I mean, I really love this, like, sort of, like, chaotic design of their career as well, where you make. no country for old men, which is perfect. And then you make Burn After Reading, and then you make what is from me, their best film, which is a serious man.

See, this is why. I'm a Jew. You're welcome here. We have the same reference points as, yeah, as if you haven't been able to tell already. We haven't even talked about Death Becomes Her, which I saw you cite as your best of the 90s,

and that's one of my favorites, too. Death Becomes Her is just so incredible and so funny. It's missing a third, act, but it is, but I only want that third act because the first two are like the, just as good as anything I've ever seen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's my favorite Zemeckis, yeah. I think so too. The sequence with like Bruce Willis and Cindy Pollock is the doctor and the bone protruding at a Merrill Streep's shoulder is one of my favorites in like Eddie film. It's amazing. Also, just the, the, the, the, the, in that movie. It's like so efficient, so, it's such an economical film. It's so funny.

That for me is when he kind of peaked just as like a, just as like a master. But I mean, back to the future, Roger Rabbit. Roger Rabbit, definitely. But those are the three for me. I would say later stages of the Americas, I think what lies beneath is a pretty great movie, too. Well, I haven't seen it since the theater, but I loved it then. Yeah, it's like, yeah, Schmaltese is fine, too, that has its place. But, yeah, I like his subversive spirit, which has always been there. I mean, you go to, like, used cars and whatever. He's kind of, like, got that too.

Yeah, and I want to hold your hand. Yeah, yeah. And just to go back to the Cohn's for one more movie, Hudson. I love it so much. That, that's, that's, like, as far as, like, Hail Mary's, like, somebody just, like, they're invited into Hollywood, and they're given, like, the Joel Silver money. You know, just the, like the... Literally, yeah.

It's a total silver movie. I mean, he's producing. It's not his money, but it's, but it's being vouched for, right? Yes. By, by, it's a, it's a totally, it's a Hollywood product and it is like... That's what they used it for to make this, like, bizarre... To make this like Preston Sturges, like Howard Hawks, Frank Capra, like massive, massive, massive... Yep.

I mean, it's a masterpiece. Yeah, when Jennifer Jason Lee was in here, as you can imagine, she was one of the, that was like one of those things where it's all I wanted to talk about. She's so incredible on that film. Well, clearly, hopefully this is

the first conversation of many. You're welcome here for every project. I'm putting that down right now. Congratulations on the new one, man. Thank you.

People haven't checked it out. Check out mid-Somar. We only spoiled a few things in there. You can piece it together, but it's really about the ride, as it were, the bizarre, funny at times,

disturbing at times, haunting. journey for these characters it's an exceptional piece of work and if people haven't seen Hereditary go back and check that one out too thanks for stopping buying your birthday no less I don't know thank you for having me

a great way to spend my birthday all right we did it and so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused remember to review, rate and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts I'm a big podcast person

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