Happy Sad Confused - Armie Hammer

Episode Date: November 29, 2017

It would be so easy to hate Armie Hammer. He's been blessed with the kind of looks that would make Captain America roll his eyes. He was born into privilege. And he was cast as one of the most iconic superheroes ever (Batman) at 19 years old with virtually zero film experience. But damn it, try not to fall in love with Armie Hammer. Go ahead listen to this podcast and try! Good luck. In this episode of "Happy Sad Confused", Hammer proves himself to be a charming self effacing storyteller (how many times did he see "Titanic" in the theater?!?) and gets candid on the up and down arc of his career -- from the highs of "The Social Network" to the lows of "The Lone Ranger". Plus Armie talks about his beloved new film, "Call Me By Your Name", why he could only have done it now, and why he's cool with becoming a dancing internet meme. All of that AND Josh picks Armie's brain about the long lost "Justice League" film he almost starred in, why he doesn't have any desire to play a superhero, and whether he'd ever work with Roman Polanski.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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to you by the First Amendment. Moving like a river in my soul. Learn more at freedomforum.org. Today on Happy, Sad Confused, Army Hammer on his critically acclaimed new film, Call Me By Your Name, that time he almost played Batman and why he's not looking to play a superhero anymore. Hey guys, I'm Josh Harrow. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad Confused. Gosh, this is Sammy.

I'm Army. No, you're not. You're not nine feet tall and a Ken doll. Not yet. A girl can dream. Yes, the guest this week is the great Army Hammer. Having a real moment, thanks to his fantastic performance in, as I said, it's a critically acclaimed film.

It's called Call Me By Your Name. If you check out, like, the reviews on this one, you will find that virtually 100% of the folks that have seen and have fallen in love with it. And I totally agree. I've seen it twice. It's a beautiful piece of work. It's directed by this Italian filmmaker by the name of Luca Guadino

who did I Am Love and a bigger splash. And this one, I believe it's based on a novel. It stars Army and a young actor by the name of Timothy Chalemay. You were around when we chatted with both of them in Toronto. In Toronto. They were great together.

They were so wonderful. So this is like, it's a very well done, delicate kind of coming of age, love story. It's a summer in Italy. It has its own kind of very specific pace and tone, and it's just a lush,

beautiful film that makes you you know, it transports you to another time and place. It takes place in the 80s. And both Timothy and Army are fantastic in it, as is by the way, Michael Stoberg, who plays Timothy's father in the film. This is going to be another major awards

player, perhaps for Army, perhaps for Timothy, perhaps for Michael. It's an embarrassment of riches. So I'm very excited to talk to Army about this very, very special film. And we're all Army Hammer fans. Yeah, I was going to say, how were things with Army? So here's the thing. I had said to Sammy, maybe going into Toronto or coming out of Toronto, like for whatever, I've talked to Army a bunch over the years. Like, you know, for social network, I was on the set with him for Mirror, Mirror, and like, and like, random things. I just feel like we never vibed. I feel like he didn't like me. You were, yeah, you felt.

like you, you know, you were giving and he was taking. I just felt like he just didn't appreciate the Horowitz's wit. Well, that every time you talk to him, you show him fan art of him dressed as superheroes that he doesn't want to play. I did do that in Toronto and he probably didn't. He was perfectly

nice about it, but he clearly didn't love that. But... But... I... For the record, I disagreed. I thought you guys had great chemistry. I thought he was happy to see you. Okay. But you were really insecure about it. I was insecure. And I will say he was fantastic.

Maybe he was, maybe this was all in my head or what, but we had a fantastic conversation. He's a great interview and very honest and open about his career and, you know, his background. He's kind of a fascinating story. Does he know that he's gorgeous? He's very aware of.

Like, do you think he knows? Yes. I think he's aware of his physical attributes, his God-given gifts. Like it's bizarre. Yes. He's tall. Like, when you see him in real life, it's like, is that art? It's kind of crazy.

And he's, look, he's very open. He was born into privilege. He, like, I mean, how many people, like, came of age in the Cayman Islands? That's literally, like, where he spent, like, his teen years. So he owns that, though. He talks about it and he gets it. But she even makes him cooler. Yeah.

And I have to say, I'm a fan of his, and I'm happy that we'd had this kind of conversation. Maybe it was just the length of the conversation that let me kind of, like, see different sides of him. And he, he's a great storyteller. or two, by the way. He's just like, there's, there's some gems in this about, um, about his wedding and about, uh, his dancing skills. Their, his dancing skills are very evident in the new film, call me by your name. Um, and, and yes, we geek out yet again. I did this with, uh, J. Baruchel recently. And I, I sometimes feel guilty about bringing up this project, but I'm still so fascinated by it. Uh, you know, as film geeks know, army was cast as Batman in the Justice

League movie, not the one that just came out, but the one that was going to happen like, 10 years ago, directed by George Miller. And Jay Baruchel had some amazing stories when he was on the podcast a couple months ago. Go back and check that out if you want. And Army was just as open and had some fantastic, fantastically interesting things to say about specific scenes from that film that we'll never see. But I think I and any, like, superhero and film fan is still fascinated by. And he's also very honest about kind of the superhero thing, about like, where he stands with it. Because, you know, as we said, he doesn't want to do it.

Well, he get, he, you know, he's often in the mix for these things. I think, like, with the right opportunity, he would do it. But, you know, I'll let him speak for himself about why he has more than mixed feelings about putting on tights and a cape. I feel all right about it. I'll tell you that. Sure, you know, gross. I'm fine with it. Hey.

So, anyway, that's the conversation coming up with Army Hammer. Go check out, call me by your name. It's a special little film. And it's going to be around for a bit, I think, through the award. season but um but go seek it out uh and in the meanwhile remember it's a review rate and subscribe review rate and subscribe it's a trifecta or you can do one of the three you don't do all three yeah but if you're there you might as well do all three if you're on iTunes guys how you're not going to go and just do one yeah you just like hit the five star not not to plant

that in your head but i mean what else are you going to but also right you're not going on to well i won't give anyway yeah yeah yeah while you're there write a couple nice words about Sammy and me and me too it honestly it does mean a lot to her it's my fuel she needs this guy I need this I'm saying this not for the podcast now I'm saying this for my own well-being we need to keep her going we need to keep her a lot please she has our iTunes reviews value me oh no um anyway please do that and enjoy this conversation with army happen It's good to see, as always, man. Congratulations again on this one.

Thanks, Josh. I appreciate it. Good to see you, too. I saw it again last night. Does that bother you? The hissing sound can be? You know, it's just going to be one of those things we're going to deal with. Fair enough, right?

Fair enough. For those that can hear the hissing in the background, we are slowly being gased to death. For those who can hear the hissing noise in the background, turn it down. You're listening too loud. Exactly. I guess you're listening to Loudly. You've got to conjugate your adverbs. You're so good.

You're so smart. We've come a long way since the set of Mary. Mirror. Good God. Happier time. Look, that was a happy experience, hopefully. Was it? I mean, it was great to go to Montreal.

Great to work with Tars. Yeah. Those sets were cool. There was a lot to it. We'll circle around. This film is obviously a special one. I saw it for the second time last night, and it's, I don't think I've met somebody

that it hasn't worked with. Not to, like, jinx you or this through this fun ride, but, like, it's just for whatever reason it really just resonates. Great. Now you've just challenged one. person to be like, yeah, I didn't like it. Well, I want to meet that person. Actually, I don't want to meet that person.

That guy sounds like an asshole. I know, right? How do you hate love? Come on, man. Do you think that you could have done this one like five years ago? Is this something that like is... No. You know, it's a great question. I think that this movie took every single bit of cumulative knowledge that I had.

Because I've said it before, there's no distractions in this movie. There's no green screen. There's no special effects. there's no monsters, there's no big set pieces, there's nothing to distract you from the fact that the only thing that propels this movie from scene to scene is the emotional life of these two people and how they connect and how that drives the story. And if at any point that didn't work or it fell flat, the movie wouldn't work.

And that's a huge daunting challenge and responsibility for an actor, you know, to think that if I have a moment of dishonesty on film, people will pick it up and realize it because the whole point of this is watching these two people progressively fall in love with each other. And I know one of the words that keeps coming up in both talking about the film and you probably use it yourself is intimacy. It feels like such an intimate film.

And that's one of those intangible things though. That's the tough thing about a movie like this. It's like if you're doing a comedy, you kind of get a sense, like, okay, that's a funny line. That Netflix makes me laugh. And you also know in a comedy, if you say it's either funny or it's not. Right.

You know, like something like this, because you're playing this sort of like unknown territory and you're playing with just human emotion. It's all kind of all over the place. But fortunately, we had someone like Luca helming the ship. Yeah. What's, on set, is there a particular piece of wisdom or advice or whatever that Luca gave you that kind of helped you steer in the right direction? Oh, dude.

Yeah. I mean, there wasn't a single moment on set that, didn't feel like Luca was in complete control and that he knew exactly what he was going for and knew exactly what he needed. But then there also was this amazing sense of freedom where he was just letting it live. And you can feel that in the movie

that he just lets moments live and he gives them their time to live in space. You know, like the best example of that is there's one scene where Oliver and Elio ride bikes past the camera and they continue to ride. Right. And they continue to ride and continue to ride. and continue rights for a bit.

It was an American film that would have been like, oh, well we need two minutes somewhere else, so let's cut that, blah, blah, blah. But he's like, no, I want to give the audience time to realize that these two people are just in their own world. They're riding off together.

And it's like, it's such a simple but beautiful moment, and that's kind of part and parcel and a perfect example of how Luca directed the whole thing. Are there, is this a film that's like replete with moments where you feel like you're out on a limb, like you're kind of like you're pushing yourself and you feel scared as an act? or do you feel once you're in it and the first couple days go by you're like,

okay, this feels right and I'm acting in the right key for him and me and Timothy have a thing or whatever? Yeah, both, both really. This movie was definitely something that challenged and pushed me as a creative individual and sort of Luca pushed me and challenged me and unrelentingly sort of made it a about this honesty and this whole thing. And so we did have to do things that, you know, I'd never done on film before or, you know, or that I was uncomfortable with.

But it also simultaneously felt so safe. Because it was just like it was such an atmosphere of love and understanding and openness and acceptance that anything that happened was okay. And that's beautiful, you know. And to be clear, Army's talking about Dan. not any of the sex stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, right, yeah.

Just the dancing scene. I hated that scene so much. So have you accepted your newfound fame as a meme? This is a big moment for you, man. I'm after this movie, I'm quitting, and I'm just going right to dancing with the stars. That's it for me. Yep, I've found my calling, and I just want to dance, Josh. That's it.

There's a lot of you on the dance floor. Too much. Too much. Like, unless you are a professionally trained dancer, you really have no business being on a dance floor if you're a six, five. and over because you're going to bump into somebody. You're going to throw a gangly arm over here and catch somebody in the back of the head or something. Do you need like a little liquid courage that day? Or what helps you through something like that?

That probably would have helped. Yeah. I mean, I don't know any time when alcohol doesn't help dancing. In fact, I can emphatically say that that is the only time in my life I have ever danced stone sober. Because I've never in any other time in my life been like, you know, I'm just sober. I'm feeling good. Let's just go dance, guys. Did you dance at your own wedding?

I did. Oh, yeah. But I was also not sober. I was very not sober. Yeah. We danced until like eight in the morning. Wow. I did only one dance my wedding.

I can't do it. I just can't do it. You did the dance. I did the dance. That was it. Oh, man. Well, by the time, the dance was over. There's not enough alcohol in the world for me, Army.

That can make me do that. Well, I can tell you this. My father-in-law is in the wine and spirit distribution business. So one of the wedding gifts that he gave us was a truckload. I'm talking like, you know those massive U-Hauls, like the really big ones, sir? They loaded it so full of alcohol for our wedding that my two brothers-in-law, John and Joseph, who had to drive it out to California from Colorado, had to drive around the state of Utah because it was too much alcohol to bring into the state of Utah.

That's how much alcohol we had at our wedding. So I guarantee you there was enough there. What about a karaoke? Does it take much to get you on a karaoke bar? Short of a nuclear blast, there's not much that would get me to a karaoke bar. I think the last time I went to a karaoke bar was actually in Japan. And I was like, this still isn't any better. This doesn't feel right.

This doesn't feel right. Because the thing about karaoke for me is like, you've always got that one friend or one person who's a ring on. Yeah, let's go to karaoke. And then you go and you're like, of course you wanted to come. You're fucking good. Like, look at you. Like, yeah, we get it. You can sing.

Okay, sit out and shut up. Now you're just making us all feel bad. Yeah. It's like playing like a shirts and skins game with you. Like, I don't want to play with you. I get it. You have a good body on me. Congrats.

You don't know what's under here. It's ugly. It's ugly. I saw the movie. I can see it. I feel like half the movie you guys are just like shirtless. Yep. Not much spent on wardrobe.

No, not much spent on wardrobe. And I don't think I've ever seen shorter shorts in my entire life. But there is, I mean, in relative seriousness, I mean, you have to like feel super comfortable with, you know, the more kind of, again, to use the word, intimate moments. Like, I mean, Timothy's like grabbing your crotch. Like, that's not day one of a shoot normally. Right. Yeah.

And you have to like get to that point where you feel like. I mean, I grab my crotch pretty much all the time. So my crotch is pretty much used to it. You're kind of the Michael Jackson of 2017. I don't know where to go from there. Okay, let's circle back around. Okay, so because obviously... Back to my crotch or...

Yeah, back to your crotch. Tell me about your crotch. No. About career-wise. So like, when we started talking, like you started talking to most people in my biz was around obviously social network. Do you feel like, I mean, you have two kids now. You got married around the time of,

social network. Yeah. So, like, do you feel like that guy is a totally alien creature to the army that's sitting with me today, or? You know, yes and no would be the easy answer for that, you know, because I think the whole, well, it's not necessarily that I think. I'm pretty sure that the whole point of life is, you know, your evolution as a person. No one stays the same at 23, 24 as they are when they're 53, 54.

You know, you've lived and you've learned and you've grown. And hopefully anyway, you know, and especially as an actor, I get to work on all these different projects and each one of them I get to focus on something new, something totally different. And I get to challenge my perspective in a fun, interesting new way every time. So hopefully I'm a very different person than I wasn't. I mean, I'm still essentially the same person. I'm me and I'm happy with me, but I'm still always convinced that me has room to grow. I don't have kids. Did having kids kind of automatically mature you a bit?

Oh, for sure. Yeah. For sure. Yeah, I mean, it's beyond the fact that, you know, it definitely changes your sleep patterns and it changes like all those things. You now have like a life that you're responsible for, a life that is completely dependent on you. And that's huge, you know, so. Did you need some maturing? Did you feel like were you kind of like, you seem like a relatively...

I still need maturing, dude. Ask my wife. Yeah, of course. Yeah. I mean, but at the same time, like, I'm youthfully enthusiastic about life, and I think that's a good quality, but at the same time, you know, I think everybody can grow and mature in some way. Do you think that, you know, in the successes and failures that have come, you know, since social network, and you could, that there's a, you know, what constitutes a success, what constitutes a failure, that's another conversation, but seeing the films that do or don't resonate with audiences, whether it's box office or commercially or in your own heart, whatever. does that make this process a little different in terms of like I guess my question is at what point do you trust your instincts that this movie worked like are you like still waiting for like the actual public to take it in or are you kind of pessimistic or optimistic having gone through the process a bit now I would say I'm sort of like realistic about it right because I've I've I've been in the situation before where people have gone this is going to be huge like oh this is going to be great blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, blah, and then it just doesn't work.

Yeah. And that's fine. Like, for me, as an actor and as a performer in a movie, my job is really done the last time the director says cut. Right. On the last day, when he says, cut, that's a rap. I'm done. Like, my job is so now he's going to go edit it.

He's going to go do his whole thing. And then eventually they're going to call me again to do like a whole song and dance and sort of get out there and be like, oh, everybody should go see this movie, blah, blah, blah, but I can't change anything that happened in the experience. Right. All of those experience. especially the ones that had more expectations on them or more, you know, more pressure on them,

those made this experience feel all the more valuable. Yeah. Because I did this because I believed in the story and I believed in the script and I wanted to work with Luca Guadignino and my experience was one of the most rewarding I've ever had while working on a film. So does this teach you?

trust your gut all the more going forward or what's the lesson learned of like career wise is there a lesson to be learned from something like this? I think, yeah, but the thing for me is like I don't even really think about it in terms of like my career as sort of like a holistic whole. I think of it as like experience to experience. Right. So I trusted my gut on this one and it paid off. I've also trusted my gut on other ones where halfway through shooting I just look at myself and I go, why the fuck are you here? This is terrible. You are not enjoying this. You're not having fun. But this was one of those experiences. But it also was an experience. that showed me that all of the conversations that I had as a young actor with, you know, acting teachers or other acting students in class and all that of, you know, the times where they sit around and go, you know, you will do a movie that makes you grow as an artist and challenges your perspective and forces you to mature, like, all that stuff.

It's not all bullshit. It's not all bullshit. You can do that. And I did it. And now I'm like, I want to do that more. Yeah. One of you, when have you been most shocked by, like, how a film turned out? And you can take that any way you want in terms of, like, the actual product or how it was received or.

or what? Is there one that stands out to you that sort of... I'll keep it on the positive side for this one and just say that this one. I mean, I never even considered how this film would turn out the entire time we were shooting. I never thought about who's going to see it, who's going to be interested, how's it

going to do, how's it going to perform, is it going to be a box office success? None of those questions ever entered my mind. So now everything that's happening is sort of just like, whoa, it's kind of defined. fact that it's resonating with people so much validates how much it resonated with me in the process of making it. Totally. So since we have some time, let's go back to a little bit, even further back. Sure. I think you're the first guest on the podcast that came of age

at the Cayman Islands. Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah. So I mean, what, you know, like all I know of that, of that environment is, you know, references in the firm. Sure. So, like, what is, is that a fun place to kind of, like, come of age? And, like, what do you, is that, like, what you consider, like, the most important years of your life were spent, at least formatively? Yeah, man, I mean, definitely like my formative young years that I remember. You know, I lived in Dallas before that, and I lived in L.A. before that. But I don't really remember L.A., and I remember Dallas, but like all, like, if someone says, you know, your childhood, my mind immediately goes back to palm trees and tropical paradise.

You know, I had a machete that I sharpened all the time. I mean, you could cut paper with it. Right. And I would come home from school, throw down my backpack, grab my machete, jump, on my dirt bike and just ride around and go see friends, go do whatever. If I got hungry, I'd cut down a papaya or climb a coconut tree, get a coconut down. And then just like go fishing,

go swimming. In the morning before school, I'd swim with sea turtles and feed them by hand. It was just like bizarre. It was just a bizarre way to grow up. And for people that can't see Army here, which is only just me, he actually came, he's in a loincloth right now with a machete, which is like so old habits

die hard. Yeah, they said I was going to the jungle. I didn't realize it was the concrete jungle. I feel like I got sold a false bill of good. So how do you announce you're going to be an actor? What's the big conversation in the Hammer household? Because I know it didn't go down so well. Well, I just basically said I want to be an actor, and they just started laughing at me. And I was like, no, really?

And I was living in the Cayman's at the time. And they were like, what do you mean? You want to do, like, Island Theater? Like, what are you talking about? Yeah, what's the theatrical scene in the Cayman Islands? I don't know what it is now, because I haven't been in several years, but there was one movie theater that had two screens. And that was it.

It's a multiplex. That constitutes a multiplex. It is a multiplex. A funny story When Titanic came out While I was living down in the Caymans And it was such a huge Like smash success

I mean I think it was like one of the first movies To make a billion dollars or something like that But they were making so much money off of it That the people who owned the theater were like Well shit let's just put it on both screens So for months Titanic was the only movie playing in the Cayman Islands But I also loved going to the movie so much

I wasn't going to stop going to the movies. I probably watched Titanic in theaters five or six times because it was the only thing. So how much attention was there in the household, like around the time where, like, you were starting to commit yourself or wanted to commit yourself, and they, obviously, it wasn't necessarily what a lot of parents don't necessarily want their kids to go and do something that's so dicey a profession, you know. It's a crazy idea. It's like that great expression of, you know, you don't find reasonable men at the tops of tall mountains. Like, you don't find reasonable people who go, no, I want no job secure. and I don't want health benefits and I want, you know, I want rejection and I want to be judged and, you know, the whole thing. Totally.

It's tough. And, you know, if my kids came to me and said that they wanted to do it, I would try to be as supportive of what they wanted. But, like, my heart would break for them a little bit, knowing what they have to go through in this business. It's not an easy thing to get into. And that's almost a good thing because it weeds out the people who truly aren't passionate about it. Like, anyone who wants to go into it just because they want to be famous or just because they want to blah, blah, blah, or they want the attention or they want the lifestyle that they think it brings, which it really doesn't. but like they want that lifestyle, you know they're going to burn out. They're not going to be able to take it because it's fucking rough, you know.

So was it your form of rebellion? Because, you know, from the outside looking in, like, you know, and you've been very open, obviously. You led a life of privilege. You know, you came from wealth and, you know, you obviously have been gifted with some great assets. But is that a way to kind of like, you know, counter the system or break through in some way? Yeah, yeah, maybe. I haven't really kind of thought about it in that sense but I'm sure that's part of it

because part of me doing it involved dropping out of high school and telling everyone that I'm going to go take control of my own life and do what I want to do. I think for someone who grew up in my situation there's a lot of expectation

and a lot of pressure and you know I mean now looking back it just sounds so ridiculous to think about but like I remember being told every day like when you go outside you represent the things. family you are a hammer and you are going to go to college and then you're going to go get

your MBA at Columbia because there's an arm and there's an arm and hammer building there and blah blah blah blah so it's like if you let it all of those things can dictate what you're going to do for the rest of your life and it's truly a powerless proposition where you're just like I have no control I just have to do this thing right because everyone else in my family has done this thing and it sounds like it'll make me miserable so are they miserable also like I don't get it like why would you do that so yeah I'm sure it was like a big form of rebellion of me being like, I don't want to be told what to do. Like, I want to make my own decisions. I want to be my

own man. And that's kind of tough because it probably would have been a lot easier to just go with the system. Like, now, speaking of job security, now I got it. I know what I'm going to do. Like, this is great. I don't have to worry about cash ever again. Like, as opposed to being an actor where you're like,

oh, boy, now, oh, man, oh, gee, you know, the whole thing. So, and in those first years before we all got to know you on the social network, were you making a, living? Like, at what point was, like, were you consistently working? I was doing, like, TV jobs here and there. Not enough to, like, really make a living. And, you know, to my parents' credit, even though they weren't happy with what I was doing, they weren't going to let me starve to death. Right. You know, so... They helped you through a little bit at least. Yeah. They definitely helped me through. And I'm, I feel really fortunate to have had that, you know. I mean, it's, it was like a

wonderful opportunity for me to really pursue something. And I know that not everybody gets that. And I know that like financial reasons can be a huge reason why some people don't follow their dreams. You know, and I was allowed to follow my dreams. You know, I mean, it wasn't easy. And it definitely wasn't something where, you know, I was like, I don't have to worry about this.

Like, it was always something that I was aware of. And I also, I didn't, like, it embarrassed the fuck out of me every time I had to go to them and be like, I need, I need help. and I'm going to pay you back. Because I didn't want to have to do that. I wanted to be my own man. Of course. It's always tough when you have to go to somebody,

especially your parents who told you that this isn't the right thing to do, and then you have to go back and ask them for help. It's a big slice of humble pie to have to eat, you know? Were there, I mean, ironically, your big break, for those that do or don't know, was a film that we never saw. It essentially was the Justice League film. Getting that, I know, helped get you other jobs.

For sure. Even before that, I want to come to that in a second, but even before that were there close calls and other gigs that you thought were going to change your life that just didn't come to fruition? Because it's such a giant leap to go from virtually nowhere to being Batman in a George Miller film. Yeah. That was like when I was 19,

so I'd really only been doing it aggressively for a year. or something like that. So there were, there, I mean, there was, like, tiny roles in little independent films that nobody would ever see again. Right. And maybe nobody ever saw in the first place. So there was, there was, there was enough to keep me hooked. Got it. But there was not enough to actually make it survive on, like, not at all.

And then Justice League happened. So what's the moment getting that part? That was crazy. I mean, I can only imagine. For Ben Affleck getting it, it's a huge part, and he's won Oscars. And he's Ben Affleck, yeah, exactly. And you were, frankly, a nobody at the time. 100%.

Yeah, 100%. I was just a kid with a goofy name. It, I can specifically remember getting the phone call and then being like, you got the part in the movie. And I, because we didn't know what part we were going in for. Oh, really? They didn't say you're going in for a Batman. You're blah, blah, blah. It was nothing.

Like literally nothing like that. they didn't even give us scenes from the movie. I had to do, my audition scene was that Ned Beatty monologue from Network, where he's like, you have meddled with the primal forces of nature, Mr. Beale. Like that, I had to give that monologue, which is an Academy Award-winning monologue. So I remember working my ass off on that and going in, doing it, and then getting the call, and then being like, you're going to play Batman in this movie. I was just like, what the fuck

Are you talking about it? It was just the craziest thing. Were you going to do the Batman growl? Were you going to do the... No, no, no, no. It was a totally different... It was... It was darker and it was...

You know, it's funny. It was pre-Christian bail, but the Christian bail Batman had a lot more in common with it than any of the previous ones. Oh, really? Like, whether it be the George Clinton. the Michael Keaton, you know, all those, which were almost campy.

Right. This one was about a guy who is severely psychologically almost deranged. Right. You know, I mean, it was dark, and it was really intense, and this guy had major trust issue, you know, the whole thing. And it was really, it was a great concept, and it was a really cool idea. I know I must feel weird to keep talking about something like this that never came to fruition. but it's one of those projects. And it's like, I think I told you recently,

I got a chance to catch up with Jay Baruchel. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And off the set that you guys clearly had a good time in Australia. We had the best time, yeah, love that guy. Yeah, he's a character in itself. Here's my one last question. I don't know if something will come to mind. He gave me a couple scenes that jumped out at him that were like,

he told me, like, the introduction of Wonder Woman, where she, like, beheads like a minotaur. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Was there, like, a scene that you, to your dying day will wish that you had seen realized on the big screen that still jumps out at you from that script? Superman and Wonder Woman have or had the most brutal fight with each other that you've ever seen. And I mean, it would be like when two superheroes actually fight, like they destroy multiple cities like by accident because they're just like they don't even see anything else

other than like trying to destroy the person in front of them. And it was incredible. I mean, at one point they'd destroy an aircraft carrier by accident. And then also the death count was going to be. extremely high because Jay Bereschel. Did he tell you about his character? Yeah. Okay, so he plays this guy, Maxwell Lord, yeah. Who, like, one of the things that he has is, like, a fast food chain.

And he, which is everywhere. Like, imagine if it would be like McDonald's or something. But inside of all the food that he's been preparing for people, he's putting, like, nanobots. And this is back when no one knew about nanobots. Like, this wasn't anything that we talked about. Sure. And so everyone's consuming this food, like, an addiction,

because he's putting like shit in it to make people addicted to it too and then they're consuming these nanobots and then at one point he pushes a button that's like activate and these nanobots literally like kill almost every person that has eaten his food and turn them into these like

there's a commentary there for the like the masses that are eating shitty fast food by the way I don't doubt that that was an intentional commentary about it but and then all of a sudden you have to fight these like nanobot huge humans that are like now programmed to be like kill all these guys like and it was just it was it was it was yeah let's see what else stands out oh they also had martian manhunter in it

who's played by hugh key keys burn who was the oh yeah yes and the first one who then all played immortal joe yeah of course yeah and he was amazing and uh a little bit like a martian himself in all the best ways like i love that guy he's an incredible but um so where are you at right now with the whole superhero thing which always will come up and always has come up and i know like You know, early on, you seemed open to it post, like, social network. And, like, you know, it's an honor to be in those kind of conversations. Do you still feel that way, or do you feel like I'm good? It's working without that whole thing or what?

Yeah. Man, it's just trying to answer to the way that's not going to get me in any trouble. Wait, have you signed on to something you can't talk about? Is that what's happening? No. No. Okay. No.

Okay. because all right let's might as well go for it are you shaking your head I haven't seen a superhero movie in a long time where I thought fuck I wish I was in that right you know so

for me there's not like a huge rush you don't feel you're missing out if you're seeing I really don't I mean would I love to own a huge Yes, for sure. But at the end of the day, like, I'm more interested now in my artistic credibility and doing the projects that satiate me as an artist and make me feel like I'm doing what I love. Because I tried doing the big movies, you know, I tried doing that. And there was like almost like an effort to get me to do these things.

It just didn't work. And at the end of the movie, I didn't feel like I was any better for it than when I started. Whereas, you know, these passion projects that you do, you sign on because you truly believe in it. And then you devote every single thing to it. And you're out there and you're like in the trenches. This movie we shot for nothing. Like it literally at almost every turn. You're not sitting in your trailer for half the time.

You're working. Everyone has to carry gear on these movies. You know, like it's that kind of thing. And that feels like it's like soul quenching in a way that like being a tiny cog and a mass. of machine wouldn't be. Right. Well, as someone that just can't, I'll say it because you can't, I just came literally for this morning, I want to

catch up on Justice League just to see it. I don't think you're missing out, Army, you're doing good. I'm telling you, yeah. I mean, look, if a great director came around and was like, look, I have this idea. If George Miller wants to do a superhero movie, you do it. If George Miller wants to do anything, I would do it

for sure. But at the end of the day, like, no one's asked, and I'm not going out of my way to do it. Yeah. So social network, which obviously made your career in a tangible sense after the would-be Justice League movie. I mean, is the learning curve on that, like, huge, though? Because it's not only like a high-profile movie, it's Sorkin Dialogue, it's Fincher, who's just obviously the most notorious of idiosyncratic in a very interesting way.

To put it nicely, yeah. What did you feel like out of your element, or do you feel like you were ready for that? I mean, you obviously, the proof is in the pudding, you delivered. But, like, was there a bit of a learning curve of the first days in that one? Yeah, I mean, it was intense. It was intense. But it would be like, I always say, like, social network was, like, running a marathon. And it feels like almost every movie since then has been, like, a 10K.

So after you run a marathon, a 10K doesn't seem like it's that hard. Right. And also, to be honest, I had two amazing crutches in that movie. I had David Fincher directing and Aaron Sork in Dialogue. So that, like, it's almost hard to deliver Aaron Sork and dialogue poorly. Like, you really have to try to fuck it up. Was Fincher, I mean, is Fincher, I wouldn't, I mean, I've never been on his set.

I've talked to him. I know what he's like. I've heard a thousand stories, and I respect the hell out of him. He's a genius. Is he a nurturing filmmaker, though? He seems to be the kind of guy that's like, you either deliver or not. Oh, not on set. Oh, absolutely not.

No, no, no. And he doesn't want to sit around and talk about your character. He doesn't want to sit around. He hired you to do job to do it. And he'll tell you that to your face. He'll go, I don't want to talk to you about this. I have hired you because I think you're the best person to do this job

so don't prove me wrong and do your job. You go, okay. Hey, it's a vote of confidence and also scary as shit. And then when you're on set, and you're doing 60, 70 takes of one camera set up, he'll just go, cut, do it again. Cut, do it again. Right. Cut, do it again. Cut, do it again? You go, do you want anything different?

He'll go do it again. Do you want me to do it again? Oh, okay. That's fascinating. It's amazing. Did you spend much time with not to go towards a lightning rod, but Kevin Spacey, was he involved much in that production? I didn't know. I'll be perfectly honest.

I didn't even know he was a producer on the film until the rat party. And I was like, what's Kevin Spacey doing here? And they're like, oh, he's the producer of the movies. He's one of the producer. And I was like, really? Oh, okay. Yeah. So coming out of that, did you feel emboldened or paralyzed by the kind of

like expectation and success of that one? Did you feel like, this is the beginning of the rest of my life and here come opportunities? Or shit, like, I now need to like, follow-up a David Fincher. Neither. I think I was young and dumb, and I just had no idea. And I was like, oh, cool. I think I went through the social network press tour, like a golden retriever puppy where I was just like, where are we going now? Okay, cool. Oh, now we're

going to get on a plane and fly somewhere cool. Like a private plane? Whoa, even better, you know. And was Jay Edgar, like, one of the first things you did after? Yeah, it was immediately after. Yeah. It's so funny to think, like, again, talking about Fincher style, like you can't go from a more different kind of a filmmaker. It would seem. Dude. Quint does one or two takes. Max, right? I mean, I've never experienced that kind of, you know, shock before. Like, you know, coming from a David Fincher film where I know for a fact there are scenes that we did more than a hundred takes of just one camera angle. And then they have to move the camera and then you start all over again.

I could tell you for a fact. My first day on Jay Edgar, I show up on set and they go, I still. have not met Clint. So they go, okay, they're ready for you. And I was like, oh, okay, okay. So they go, okay, go get hair and makeup, go do the whole thing, and go to your trailer and we'll come get you when they're ready. And I was like, okay, okay, okay, okay. So I go through the works,

I go to my trailer, I'm there, I'm like, I'm psyching myself up, I'm going over my lines, I'm thinking about the scenes, you know, and I'm really kind of doing my actor thing. And then someone comes up and goes, knock, knock, knock, I go, they're ready for you. And I go, okay, great. So I go to set and I walk into set, and we're shooting in a movie theater. And they walk me up,

and it's Clint, or I'm sorry, it's Leo DiCaprio, Clint Eastwood, and Dame Judy Dench sitting in a movie theater, like in a row next to each other. And the guy goes, that's your seat. And he points to the seat that Clint's in. So I was like, okay. Is someone else going to tell him to move? Yeah, because it's not going to be me.

I'll tell you that for a fact. So then I kind of just, like, stand there. And like, they're having like a conversation, and then I like keep standing there. And then I keep standing there and I keep standing there. And then finally Clint looks up and he goes, oh, you must be armed me. All right, come on, let's do this.

And so I get up. and I now sit in the seat that he was in. And we still, that's the most that we've spoken. Right. So I was like, oh, yes, yes, sir, sure. So I sit down on the thing. And then he sits, like, in a chair kind of a little bit removed from us while the camera's looking at us on the thing.

And he goes, you know, so in this scene, you're watching the movie, and it's on the screen. It's a good movie. You like the movie. You're proud of it. Maybe you even look at each other and have a moment where, you know, you feel proud of the movie. Right.

And so we're talking, and I go, do you mean something like this? And I look at Leo, and he looks at me, and he goes, yep, just like that. All right, moving on. And I go, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, what? He goes, yep, we got it. And that was, like, the camera was rolling. Like, that was our take.

There was no rehearsal. There was no... That was it. And I literally just, like, sat in the chair and, like, my palms started sweating. And I was, like, what is going on around here? Because social network was really my only experience. Yeah, I mean, we did, like, some...

We did some stuff for Justice League and camera tests and all that, like, and some scenes we did, but, like, I don't know where those are. Someone's got to have those. But that was... the first I'm sorry, that was the only other actual film

I'd ever been in so I had no frame of reference and that just continued through the rest of the time like it was just that fast. Is it valuable for you at this point now to like know how the director is going to shoot whether it's that polarizing extreme of Fincher or Clint before you step

on set? Is that something you make a point of knowing? Well I mean sometimes you can't get that information beforehand because sometimes they don't know. Sometimes you Whatever. You can talk to people that have worked with them and you can sleep around a little bit. I mean, if I was diligent enough to do that, then I probably could. But also that's a big part of what we do as actors is like I have my routine and I have what I know works for me and my process and what I need.

Like I know that I need to do a lot of research. I know that I need to have my lines so completely memorized that I don't think about them for a second because if I spend a minute thinking about my lines in the scene, then I'm already sucked out of it. So I know these things about my process and that's like the challenge of an actor is figuring out how to make your process work with the director's process because every director has a different process so you can't just come in and like force your way into like

well no I need this you have to learn how to make your shit work with their shit yeah do you are you the kind of like is there a filmmaker you're curious about their process and sort of seem like if I could work in that environment or how as you said your style would kind of mesh with theirs yeah you know I mean there

there are some directors that do everything extremely fast and loose and like all handheld camera you know like so like Kronova shoots that way it's I don't know there's like there are dudes where you're like I don't know how that would work for me and it seems like a fun challenge yeah and what's like

Wheatley like for instance Ben Wheatley is that he's amazing dude he's fantastic and his process exists entirely to service the edit you know he has a full edit bay built on set when he's shooting because he wants to see it coming together as it goes because this is like his background He knows how to edit, and he's editing in real time.

So there's a feed coming directly from the camera right to his edit station. And so as this footage is coming in, he's going, and it's like he's not going, okay, let me cut this and paste this here. No, let me move that a few frames. He's literally not looking at the keyboard, which is not a normal keyboard. It's got like all these symbols on it. And he's just like, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. So by the end of the day, he's got everything from that day cut together. And on the end of the last day, he's got an assembly of the film.

film. So he can watch it and go, I need one shot of someone's hand grabbing this gun because we didn't see that. And also I need this to establish the camera direction and I need this. So it's really efficient filmmaking. Do you feel at this point, I mean, I've talked to a lot of actors who like, I mean, it can be an actor that's been working for 40 years that has a bunch of Oscars to their credit and they still feel like they're at risk of being fired on every project. Are you that kind of an actor or are you the kind of actor that like you're secure. And I don't mean this is a negative thing, but you're secure enough where you are now that you deserve a place at the table, and you're going to... No, I don't feel that I deserve a place at the table, but, like, at the end of the day, you can't go in there worried about getting fired because... If they're going to reinforce the... If they're going to fire you, they're going to fire you.

Like, I mean, I've been fired. You've been fired? Yeah, I mean, it happens. But, like, if they're going to fire you, they're going to fire you, but at the end of the day, like, you have to also just focus on what you're doing. Yeah. And if they're not happy with it,

then, you know, there's nothing you can really control about it. Do you feel like when you look back in, like, these kind of conversations or whenever you have an opportunity to think about what you've been able to do the last few years, like, you've been a disproportionate amount of movies that have had a lot of drama around it? Yeah, what the hell? I was thinking about that when I was, like, looking at, like, the films. Like, whether it's Lone Ranger, I mean, Man from Uncle, I wouldn't say, is super dramatic, but it has a lot of narratives around it. Yeah. That was slightly dramatic, yeah. I mean, I'm curious on that one, and this is something that keeps coming up more and more nowadays, and I'm wrestling with it myself.

Where do you come down on, like, separating the art from the artist kind of a thing? Do you think about that in terms of, like, we didn't, like, no one really knew. There was, that was... Right, that all came out. The next stuff came out after. No one really knew that passed too well. I don't know, man. Like, for me...

Like, if Polanski wants to work with you, what do you say? You know, it's funny, man, because part of me as an artist, would say there's not a lot of artists in history who don't have something fucked up about them. You know, I mean, you don't find reasonable men at the tops of tall mountains and sane people don't decide to become artists

because it's a weird job with no job security and, you know, whatever. But it's... The idealist in me would like to think you know, okay, I'm not working with Polansky, to use your example, the person. I'm working with him as an artist, and this is a new thing that he's doing, and I think that he is a talented artist or whatever. But at the end of the day, like, as a human and as, you know, someone who's trying to live a virtuous life, you kind of go, is it worth it? Like, you know there's just going to be drama.

You know it's going to be an issue, and you know that it's going to be something that, can overshadow what you're actually trying to do. So, I don't know, man. It's not an easy question, because, I mean, again, like, it's full of gray, you know, it's hard. I mean, I grew up, I mean, Woody Allen, you know, was my spirit animal, as you can imagine stereotypically, and it's like, what do you do with that?

Mel Gibson, I grew up with Mel Gibson films, and it's all just like, I don't know if I can throw all that out, but I hear everything you're saying. It's a tough one, I don't know. Yeah, the thing about, yeah, yeah, it's like, I don't, yeah, you, yeah, yeah. You just, I think, wrapped on a, on a film that I'm very intrigued by

the Ruth Bader Ginsburg film, right? On the basis of sex, yeah. With a Felicity who's lovely and so talented. Amazing, she's incredible. What can you tell me about making that one with Mimi Leeder who's a great filmmaker in her own right? She's great, yeah. It was an amazing project, and it's such a fascinating thing

to get to really go back in time when the gender landscape in this country was vastly different, when women couldn't rent a car unless their husband was there with them. And I don't even know what, maybe it's because they were afraid their wives were going to run away

from the shitty home lives that they had. I don't know, but like, this is a woman who just by her own sheer determination and will changed the landscape of gender law in this country. And she is an exceptionally, smart human being who, I mean, Ruth Bader Ginsburg sleeps three hours a night because she's too busy reading. Like, I mean, she doesn't own a television and she only listens to opera. Like, she's like that kind of intellect, you know? So, and Felicity Jones did such an amazing job,

sort of bringing that to life. That's awesome. I can't wait for that one, man. Do you have a little time off? I know you're going to be helping spread the good word on this one for a bit. Do you know what you're doing next? No, dude. I'm on the call me by your name train. Like, I'm going back to L.A. at 5 in the morning to go back to Moore and then I've got to Santa Barbara, then I'm back to it, blah, blah, blah, blah. Just nonstop talking about dancing and peaches and... That's it. That's it. All the important stuff. Yeah. Yeah. The finer things in life. Exactly. No, but in all seriousness, you know, I'm a fan of this one, and it's a worthy project to spend some time talking about and to urge people to get out and see. And, you know, I feel confident in

recommending it to anybody because it just, as we said at the outset, it works for everyone. Thanks, dude. I appreciate it. I feel really proud, man. Good to see as always. Nice to you, Josh. Thanks for having me. Thanks, thanks for me. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sa. confused. Remember to review, rate and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Davey Ridley and I definitely wasn't pressure to do this by Josh. The Kid and Butch and Sundance. Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, and Geronimo,

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