Happy Sad Confused - Bella Ramsey

Episode Date: February 2, 2023

She's the star of the show everyone is talking about and she's on HAPPY SAD CONFUSED to talk about all of it! Bella Ramsey joins Josh for a spoiler chat (make sure you've seen the first 3 episodes of THE LAST OF US!) including how she got the role, her ropes for the future, and her experiences on GAME OF THRONES. UPCOMING EVENT! Get your tickets now to see Josh tape a LIVE Happy Sad Confused episode with Marc Maron in NYC on February 10th! Get your tickets here! To watch episodes of Happy Sad Confused, subscribe to Josh's youtube channel here! Check out the Happy Sad Confused patreon here! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes of GAME NIGHT, video versions of the podcast, and more! For all of your media headlines remember to subscribe to The Wakeup newsletter here! SUPPORT THE SHOW BY SUPPORTING OUR SPONSORS! This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/HSC and get on your way to being your best self. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

D.C. high volume, Batman. The Dark Nights definitive DC comic stories adapted directly for audio for the very first time. Fear, I have to make them afraid. He's got a motorcycle. Get after him or have you shot. What do you mean blow up the building? From this moment on,

none of you are safe. New episodes every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, Sad, Confused begins now. Today on Happy, Sad, Confused, Bella Ramsey on Game of Thrones, The Last of Us, and looking ahead to a season two.

Hey, guys, I'm Josh Horowitz, and welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Very thrilled to say that we have the right guest about the right project at the right time. Sometimes it all lines up, and this is one of those weeks, Bella Ramsey on the show, talking about my favorite new series. If you follow me on social media, you're probably sick of me touting it. But The Last of Us is just amazing, emotional, harrowing, intense, amazing performances from her and Pedro Pascal. We're going to get into all of it in just a bit.

It's a really good chat. I'm so thrilled that happened. But first, let's talk about some exciting things in the Happy Say I Confused Universe. We have our first major live event of 2023. It is on the calendar, guys. February 10th, 7.30 p.m. in New York City, be there for me and Mark Marin. I am so psyched about this. I've never chatted with Mark.

And he is truly perhaps as responsible as any human being is for what this podcast is. I've been a longtime fan of WTF. He continues to kill it week after week. And not to mention, he's a fantastic actor, a great stand-up comedian. We are, in fact, going to be talking about his latest stand-up special, dropping very soon on HBO Max. But we're going to talk about everything. Career chat, podcasting, all of it, a meeting of the podcast minds through 92 and Y. The link is in the show notes, the purchase tickets, be there in person, or you can watch us live virtually.

That option is available, too. I hope to see you guys out there again, February 10th, 7.30 p.m. actually physically at the Museum of Modern Art, but it's through 92 NY. All that information is available once you click on the link in the show notes. So that is going to be a special one. Other things to mention, I've been told to remind you guys, and I wasn't even aware of this, that not only are we on Spotify right now, but did you know you can watch us via Spotify? Sure, you can watch us on YouTube, and I encourage all of you, please subscribe to the YouTube channel, YouTube.com slash Josh Horowitz, if you want to watch these episodes.

also on Spotify. Spotify now has the ability to listen and watch. So check it out. Subscribe to us on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. We are available in all the places that you can imagine. Let's see. Other things to mention. I think those are the major bits of housekeeping. Let's talk about Bella Ramsey. Okay. So the last of us. I was aware of this game. I'm not a gamer. I mean, I'm tangentially, you know, aware of that world and I've dipped my toe into playing games over the years, but I can't consider myself a hardcore gamer. That being said, I was aware of the fandom around this game, and I definitely tracked the progress of the making of the show, and when I heard that Craig Mason, who I believe was the showrunner on Chernobyl,

an amazing limited series, was signed on. When I heard Pedro Pascal was on board, I was like, okay, this has all the ingredients of something really interesting. But I was not prepared for watching this series, guys. I've watched the first four. episodes. If you're listening to this when it drops, by now the first three episodes are out. Episode three is an all-timer, guys. It's an all-time great hour of television, and I can't recommend it highly enough. I am so freaking busy with all the stuff I have to watch, but it should tell you everything that I made the time to watch the first three episodes of this show a second time. I literally have no time for anything like that, but I did that for this

show. So yes, in terms of the conversation, are there spoilers? Yeah, I guess there are. She, Bella, drops like a major spoiler heading into season two. So if you're not familiar with the games, you might want to tread very cautiously in this conversation. We also talk a bit about episode three and what transpires. So if you want to go in without any worry, watch the first three episodes, and even hopefully be aware of the major plot points of what are coming in future installments of the show. I just don't want to ruin anything for you guys. Just go in with your eyes and ears wide open. As for this conversation, this also happened at a perfect time. This was the day that The Last of Us was renewed officially for a second season.

So I spoke to Bella just a couple, really a couple minutes after that was officially announced. So she was in a great mood. She's delightful and such a talented actor. Most of you probably saw her first in Game of Thrones. And yes, we talk a bit about that. But a lot of this, this is one of those ones where I really want to dive deep into the backstory, the machinations, all of it around The Last of Us. And even looking ahead as she plays this character in future seasons. She's a 19-year-old woman who is playing, I believe she's 14 in the first season, but in future installments, she will be closer to her age.

So that's an interesting aspect as well. A very intelligent and talented actor that I was just so thrilled to catch up with. So I know you guys are going to enjoy this. And by the way, I haven't seen like any long-form conversations with Bella. So I think we're really lucky here. This is like kind of the first extensive chat that you're probably going to see or hear. with Bella Ramsey and I'm sure you'll be as captivated by her as I was. So enjoy it. Remember to review the podcast if you can. Take a second go on iTunes. Those reviews matter. Spread the

good word. Do all the things. Follow me on social media, Joshua Harowitz. Subscribe on YouTube. YouTube.com slash Josh Harowitz. Go to the Patreon. Patreon.com slash happy say I confused for early access and all the bonus stuff and the merch and all the all the cool. stuff. All right. Let's get to the main event. I know while you're here, you're here for Last of Us, chat. Here is me and Bella Ramsey. Bella, this is really exciting for me. This is one of those shows. This is like my current obsession right now. And I hope you're feeling the love out there. There's a lot of excitement about this series. Yeah, there's been a lot of love, which is sort of unprecedented, which is a word that I haven't heard you since the COVID-19 outbreak.

So it's sort of a way to bring it back. But yeah, it's been a, I think we all hope the show would go well and that people would like it, but we didn't quite anticipate that the reaction would be like this big and this good. Yeah, you hope you go in with the best of intentions, but as you well know, part of it is a lot of it's out of your control. And as we tape this today, big news. I mean, we saw this coming. We knew this was going to happen. But officially the last of us is coming back for season two. Is it relief, excitement when you, did you just hear the news today as well?

Or did you get a tip? No, I heard the news earlier this week. But I'm so happy. Yeah, I sort of anticipated it. Well, I did anticipate. I didn't anticipate it. But it's really nice to have it solidified and like just to know now that it feels more real,

like to know that we're going out to Canada again and spending time with some of my best friends making the show that I really love and yeah, I'm so excited for it. So before we get to The Last of Us, when I started to do my copious research on you, I was like, okay, I wonder if she's done podcasts and I did a podcast search.

And here's what I came up with not only, I didn't really come up with you on podcasts, but I did come up with the fact that you were kind of sort of hosting a podcast that never happened. What was, Oh, no. What was not Bella Ramsey? There is a trail.

Teller, Bella, for a podcast at the end of 2019, and no evidence of it actually ever happening. Not Bella Ramsey was a bad idea that I had when I was... I think it was during... I don't know when this was. I will tell you, November 9th, 2019, there is a trailer. And the irony of the description is, I think that you say even in the trailer, this is a podcast dedicated to people like me who are indecisive. So is this the ultimate indecisive podcast that you weren't able to follow through on? Like you lived up to the title.

Well, I've tried to get that taken down. I don't know how to do it. Yeah, this was just a bad idea that I had. I was like, oh, I could make a podcast and just talk about random things. So I made, but I was, I've been waiting for the moment where someone would like find it and ask me about it. You've done it. You're the guy. Yeah, not better.

Yeah, not better. I was just, because I'm not a pod, I don't, not really a listener, a consumer of podcast, particularly. And so I thought, and that's mostly because, like, I go on the podcast, like, charts. I'm like, I have no idea what I want to watch, what I want to listen to. So I was like, let me make one for people like me who don't know what they want to listen to. I don't know. It was a terrible idea, and I never did anything other than the trailer. And, yeah, that's amazing.

I watch this shoot up the charts now. Yeah, exactly. Only the trailer. Just leave it there. and make it mysterious. I did hear like a stat, there's some kind of crazy stat out there where like 90, you're not alone.

Like 90% of podcasts like never go past like episode three. Like every, like a lot of people are like, hey, I'm going to try it out. And then they're like, oh, this is fucking more work. Like, why am I doing? No, I'm good. Okay, good. Yeah.

Well, I'm pleased to be part of that statistic. You've stuck with acting, thankfully. Thankfully, we're all of us. Yeah. Talk to me a little bit about like what it's been like, last few weeks. So as we tape this, by the time people watch or listen to this, the first three episodes will have been out. And so far, people are really receiving it very well and they're interacting with it. It's kind of become appointment, television streaming, whatever we

call it nowadays. Like, are you actively engaging with the reception? Like, how are you kind of receiving it right now? I have an oath with Craig Mason, the writer-show runner of the show. that we an oath to not look at comments um because it's very easy like although majority of the reaction is great but even like the great stuff it can be it could become quite overwhelming one just it's just like a lot of attention yeah but also um you can there's still there's always going to be negative stuff like that and it's easy to fall down that rabbit hole it's just better we just like have a happier time when we're just not spending all day like on Reddit posts and like falling down those rabbit holes and stuff so so yeah we haven't we

have an oath not to really look at too much sometimes we give each other like exceptions and that's going quite well I think it's a smart yeah go ahead yeah I think so too we did just have to revise the oath the other day because we both sort of fell down so we now have the oath number two fresh edition I like how it's not like a like a simple promise or whatever like oh we talk to each other about it it's an oath It sounds like it was done in secret, done in the dark, with candles lit. Like, what happened? Yeah.

Do you want to actually know how it happened? We were, we just, yes. Okay, so we'd just flown to, into L.A. We'd had like a 16-hour travel day or something from London. This was in, this was on the 30th of December. And it was in the car on the way to, like, on the way to where we were staying. And I was like, like, jet lagged, exhausted. and the oath was born out of exhaustion.

And, you know, I think it really serves us both. I think it is wise. Because, yeah, I mean, look, even in the limited experience I've had with that kind of thing, you read the comments and you're like, oh, there are 10 great comments in a row, and you just, you're stupid enough to keep going until you find the one crappy one, and then that ruins your day. So it's not worth the psychic energy. Yeah, totally.

And even if you don't think it really gives it, you're like, oh, this is fine. It's just one bad comment. But then, like, you'll think about it all day. Yeah. All right. So let's talk a little bit about how this one came about. Because I believe you were cast in this about two years ago. And it's a long production.

What was the audition process like? Because we're back into like, look, obviously we're still living with COVID. But two years ago, that was even more intense COVID times. Did you ever, like, get in an actual room with Craig? Or was it all Zoom? What happened? It was all Zoom. So I had a, they sent a self-tape over.

So I just did a couple of scenes from the first episode, the Marlene scene and the one in Joel's apartment. And I said, eight teas. Eighties means trouble because my American accent was a bit dodgy. But they could see that, see past that, thankfully. And after that, I just got on a Zoom with Craig and Neil and our castor director. And from there, like, got a call then from my agent a few weeks later

It's been like, it's happening. And then got on Zoom again with Craig and Neil and the gang to sort of talk about it. It was very exciting and very surreal. So I read something that Neil said. Neil said, quote, we were looking for a specific combination of contradictions, someone that could be funny and quirky and violent and rough. So does that, is that dovetail with your skill set? Would you say you have all of those in your toolkit?

I mean, apparently so. And I think, I mean, the contradiction thing is cool, because the amount of times I've thought in my life, I think Frank maybe said this, like, I'm a bundle of contradictions or something. And I felt like that so often. So it was, it's cool to play somebody like that. Yeah, she's at one point, she's like that she's the smartest adult in the room. And then she's like a terrified little kid. And I think that contrast is really cool to play. Um, yeah, I, I mean, I, I, I relate to all of the things, apart from violent, but, you know, I think I maybe have some, like, deep embedded violence that can come out in safe spaces, like, on set. Okay, okay. Well, how's that manifest? Is there a specific example you want to cite? Like, pounding on craft service if they don't have what you want? Like, what happens? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think we should leave it at that. Okay, yeah, let's leave it mysterious. Yeah, okay.

Yeah. I love that. I mean, who doesn't? I mean, I've visited a few sets. It's like, it's a miracle that, yeah, that I don't gain 100 pounds every time I visit a set. Yeah, easily done. All of this is for me? What? So Craig has famously said that he asked you and Pedro not to play the game. Oh, yeah. So, dude, I find it difficult to believe in all these months leading up to it, the months of production, there's not late one night, you're in your hotel room and you're like, you know what, he'll never know. I got to just try it. It would be, it never happened. You haven't played the game still? I actually started playing it like two weeks ago.

Right, but I had, I had watched some of the gameplay. Like, even before they asked me not to play it. Like, before the audition and stuff, I, I had. watched some of the gameplay so i was aware of it and familiar with it but i'd never actually sat down and like been joan and ellie um so what's the sensation been like recently playing it is it surreal or you how do you relate to playing your own character it's um i've not got to the bit where ellie comes here i haven't really done it for like a week but um it's uh it's actually it's actually not as weird as i thought it would be and i have it on like the easiest mode so it's fine but i do find myself like, I think I need to just get on with it because I get in a room and I look at all the details. I'm like, oh, there might be something relevant here. And I'm just like wondering around.

And then I end up getting lost because I've forgotten where like the entrance and the exits are because I've like got so confused walking around in circles, looking at all the details of the room. And yeah, I think I just need to like go forwards and get to the point. Well, it is this interesting thing. And look, it's you obviously, a lot of folks came to know you through Game of Thrones. And And one of the things that is comparable in both of these circumstances is that the fan base will know in some ways this world better than the actors, at least at the start, which is a strange place to be where like you encounter fans that like know every single thing about these games and you're like, you're working all of the scripts. You're working with the material. So is that a, I don't know, is it an odd thing to know like you must feel ownership over the character, but they also feel. a different kind of ownership.

Yeah, totally. You froze a bit there, but I think I've got the gist of what you're saying. Yeah, ownership over the characters. Right. And I totally get that with, like, the ownership that is felt. And although I think I like,

I prefer the perspective of, like, nobody, like, owns anybody. It's just like, Ellie is a character that has been, like, I have, like, hugged in my, maybe like embrace. It's been like, Ellie's been embraced by a lot of people, like, embraced by Ashley Johnson. And then people have embraced Ashley Johnson's, like, iconic version of Ellie. And then now, thankfully, people, like, are embracing my version of Ali as well as, like, their own personal relationships to Ellie. like I just feel like it's it's more of like a collective embrace rather than

ownership I think it's a nice way of looking at it and I think it's it takes away any sort of toxicity that comes with like feeling like a character is yours and like yeah they have they are yours in that you have the you have an individual relationship with that character that is different from everybody else but like it's the same character you're just all experiencing her and them like a different way and I think that's that's like a beautiful thing I think for everyone to be able to like have their own personal experience yeah I wonder if like centuries ago there were like the diehard Shakespeare fans that were like no this is my hamlet you shouldn't be doing it that way I had this hamlet in my brain who's this way probably

if Reddit had existed back in the days of Shakespeare oh my gosh yeah I was going to say make Shakespeare shit, but I'm not going to put it in effect. The term Shakespeare shit, though, should be a hashtag. I like Shakespeare shit, yeah, nice. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. I don't know about you guys, but when I feel my best, that's when I can really achieve and accomplish great things. And I know life can be hard.

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Let's talk about Pedro, the most charming, annoyingly sweet man on the planet. Yes. This is a beautiful love affair that you guys have. I saw you do a lot of press together, and why wouldn't you? It's a fun, fun group. Did you guys, how is the relationship evolved? You had a lot of time with him. How was it day one versus where you are?

Was there a time that it took to kind of like key into each other's vibe or what? yeah I mean when I think of day one and I think of now like I am it's a total difference in a really nice way like at the beginning we were so shy of each other and um I think we're just so nervous of like we knew that we had to spend a year together and possibly more for like further seasons and there was so much riding on like our relationship and our chemistry that I think we would just I was certainly like just nervous I just wanted us to be friends and I was so concerned with like being like I don't know not being annoying that I think it it took a while for us both to like get into just get

into their like I don't know just be ourselves around each other and I think at the minute that we did that and just let go of any sort of pressure and expectations that we had of ourselves and each other in terms of how we relate to each other like it just our relationship flourished and like we're incredibly comfortable which now but the thing that I had immediately with him was like a feeling of safety like I knew that I was going to be okay and that we were going to be okay because he yeah it's just an immediate safety and familiarity and yeah we instantly got along I think it just it took the time sort of like Ellie and Joel um to just to really like relate to each other I guess in a way

in a way that is, yeah, like you said, it is a love affair. Do you relate to each other on a pop culture level? Because Pedro, like myself, is a very old man. Who has taught more about pop culture? Have you taught Pedro more about contemporary pop culture? Has he taught you more about what the 90s were like? He's, I mean, he's been trying to educate me on, like, TV and movies that he loves. And I've not been a very good student, I have to say.

I just sort of like nod and say that I'll watch all these things that he wants me to watch and then I just forget and never get around to it but I have some things which I definitely watch like we're going to watch Thelma and Louise at some point together which will be fun but I've taught I don't I don't know what I've taught him to be honest no I don't know I think he's mainly been teaching taught me about like horrid Henry maybe I introduced him to that, which was, I don't know whether you know about Horrid Henry. I don't. Oh, my gosh.

I grew up on that show and continued to. Like, I had a whole phase shooting the Last Abyss where I remembered about it and then, like, watched it religiously for a week or so. What's the thumbnail description? What's the elevator pitch on the? Oh, it's, it's, well, there's Horrid Henry. He has a brother called Perfect Peter and their enemies. I don't know. He just, like, gets into trouble and doesn't like brushing his teeth and going to school.

And I wanted to be Horrid Henry when I was a kid. Amazing. That's that. He has a gerbil mouse thing. I don't know. It's just the greatest. If you have to watch it and listen to the theme tune because the theme tune is a real banger. Would you like to recite it for me?

Would you like to give me a little taste? Absolutely not. I mean, I'm good. Well, I think there are two and I've got two in my head. I'm afraid that I won't do it justice. Better enough. Okay. Second podcast.

We'll get you on board for that one. Who do you, okay, so Pedro obviously has cornered the market on protecting beloved characters. Who do you think he loves more, you or Grogu? Oh, that's a difficult one. Yeah. I think, oh goodness. Is it bad that I haven't seen the Mandelian? No, I mean, it's a little surprising, but it's okay.

You're busy. I think it's bad. I mean, so I, from an uneducated point of view, I'm completely ignorant to his relationship with Grover. I know it's special. And I know that he likes to see his baby grow and flourish and become more famous than him as, I really have seen too many of his interviews. But I think, you see how I'm like dodging around this question because I'm afraid of it? Because you're just making stuff up because you don't want to say the wrong thing you should embrace yourself

embrace the character he loves Ellie and you more of course I think he loves I think he does because well I can't really I mean watch out for the end of the season you really see like the love between Ellie and Joel grow and I think

I think he yeah I think he loves me more than Grogoo Grogoo that's how you say it right you got that right at least yeah you got the pronunciation yeah good baby Yoda Baby Yoda Grogu, why are that your names? Because technically it's not Baby Yoda. Yoda is its own character.

I mean, if you really want to spend the next half hour for me describing Star Wars to you, I can, but I don't think we want to do that. Okay, okay. I'll just watch it after this. Fair enough, fair enough. I've got to watch Horrible Harry. Horrid Henry. Horrid Henry.

That was close. Yeah, probably, yeah, you're close. Horrible Harry is the knockoff. It's a different thing entirely. Yeah. Exactly. Okay. So I have watched the first four episodes.

I'm not going to talk about episode four because people haven't had a chance to see it. But by the time people listen and watch this, episode three is out. Bella, episode three is an all-time episode of television. Not just this show. I've watched it twice and I don't have time to watch anything twice. I'm obsessed with it. Have you watched the finished product? I mean, this is a special one.

I haven't. I'm watching it as it comes out. I'm terrified for the feelings I'm going to feel because I've heard phenomenal things and I've seen clips and oh my goodness I think I'm going to be broken and I've read this I know what happens and I still think I'm going to be broken but yeah I'm watching as it comes out so so let's see yeah I mean so for those that do or don't know part of this episode depicts this it's almost a little bit of a bottle episode as they call it in some respects where it depicts a beautiful heart-breaking relationship played by Nick Offerman and Murray Bartlett, two great actors. And look, I mean, I think it's going to be a special episode for many reasons. And we've seen many great depictions, obviously, of LGBTQ relationships and TV. It's not like the novelty of that. But I think it still should be acknowledged that that aspect of it being depicted in such a

humanistic, heartbreaking way is an important thing to acknowledge. I mean, wouldn't you say that normalizing that in the context of a show like this? I totally agree. Like, why shouldn't we hone in on that relationship in a post-apocalyptic world? Like, it's not like all the gay people got blown up and it doesn't exist anymore. You know what I mean? So I think it's really important. And I just like the fact that, like, from reading the script, obviously, I've not seen it yet.

but it's a it's a relationship and it happens to be between two men and that love story is so beautiful and heartbreaking and I mean it's so important I think yeah like you said it's like normalising gay relationships

LGBT plus relationships with all the various backdrops like be it the apocalypse be it like 2003 like it it I don't know I think it's I think it's just really really nice that people can and important that people can feel represented and and the hope is that it is it impacts people who aren't in the community just as much as it impacts right people who are it is Ellie's queerness important to you like as an aspect of that character I mean it is thus far it's referenced without not being overt yet I don't

I don't know if it becomes more into the four as the season progresses or not. Yeah, I mean, you will see. There's an episode which focuses a lot on Ellie and Riley, her best friend and more than that. And yeah, her, Ellie's queen is important. Like, she's, it's, it was something that I really loved about her from the beginning. And I loved the way that it was woven into the story, again, without it being a big deal. And like, it's not talked about. It's not really talked about. It just exists. And that's, that's why I really love about it the most. But yeah, it's a super important aspect. I feel I'm just so happy. It's, I got to play her. And I know she means so much to like so many people. And so it's, it's an honor for me to embody that. Well, and also the reverberations of something like that aren't just like in the tomorrow. It's, it's, it's, honestly, it is like the more these kinds of roles in normalizing these relationships happen. in every

facet of entertainment the more audiences see themselves the more it will just for decades to come the ripple effect is important

I think to think about yeah it's so exciting that that is the case like yeah it's so exciting I can't wait for people to see that episode

and to obviously that the episode three has come out by the time people listen yeah I'm I'm so happy about it and like why why shouldn't

queerness and gay relationships exist within a show like this. Yeah. I just think it's super cool and like a great thing that Craig and Neil have been so so invested in it and into the idea. And I think, yeah, I'm really happy with that. Talk to me a little bit about Ashley, Ashley Johnson, who of course played this character in the game and who is going to be seen in the series in a role that I don't believe has been depicted in the game as Ellie's mother. What was the collaboration like?

What was it like to pick her brain or not or just compare her notes and to also just share the scenes with her? Well, it was, yeah, I remember I walked into the production office and I saw her like picture taped up on the wall. Being Ellie's mom, I was like, oh, this is interesting. Because I hadn't, I haven't been told until I saw it up there. And I said to Craig and he was like, yeah, you're not supposed to know that yet. Yeah, it was surreal, actually, seeing, meeting Ashley for the first time. We haven't really talked about Ellie much. We just sort of have this real strong mutual appreciation and love for each other.

Like every time we meet, it's like, I love your work so much. And we just sort of end up spearing compliments at each other. and yeah, she's awesome. Again, I haven't seen the episode that she's in, but I've seen, again, clips, and she's phenomenal. Like, she's going to blow people's minds. I mean, one of the exciting aspects of getting to do this over two seasons and perhaps more,

Craig has said that potentially the second game is more than one season in his brain. But I would imagine one of the exciting and intimidating prospects is to go off and do your own thing. and to, you know, add characters, add backstories, expand the universe a bit. Is that, is that something like, are there, now that you have this investment in this character, are there aspects of Ellie you want to explore that weren't explored in the game? I mean, I don't know, really. I've not really thought about that.

I guess it's down to Craig and Neil as to like what bits they really pull from the story. I'm really excited, to be honest, for the Ellie Dina story. like I've watched a cut together someone's made like a phenomenal I don't know how they do it like an amazing edit of just like the gameplay like Ellie and Dina's love story so I'm excited to play that out and also like the complexity of a relationship with Joel and how that gets decidedly like more complex and I'm looking forward to that and just yeah like I think the violence that ensues is um thrilling in a way to get to maybe explore that in a like I said like a really safe environment. It will be cool. But I am nervous

about it too. I'm nervous about because I know what happens in the second game and I'm nervous about being potentially without Pedro for a while but it's going to be really sad. Right. You will though presumably be playing closer to your age at least. You don't have to be

14 in the Yeah. Although people people still think I'm 14. Like I got, we were in a restaurant the other day and someone didn't believe, like thought that I was genuinely 14, which is great because I'm meant to be like that for Elliot and it doesn't bother me at all. But yeah, I'll be 20 probably by the time we shoot that and I'll be playing 19, yeah. So yeah, I will be closer to my age. But yeah, I didn't actually really think about that. is it true um you've been working on getting your driver's license or do you have a license by now

yes well i failed my first test because i pulled out at a roundabout when i wasn't supposed to i was sitting there for like five minutes i was like i need to go but i just got yeah anyway and i pulled out and then she's the examiner stand on the brakes we'll try this again in a few months Exactly. I actually have got a test again next week. So we'll see. I'll email you and let you know if I passed. Please do. Just so you know, again, to make you feel better, I'm a 46-year-old man that still does not have a driver's license. I never got a license. Okay, that does make me feel better. So you have 26 years to beat me. Yeah, thanks. You've never had the roundabout stress. It's real. It sounds horrible. It's horrendous. I have to ask you a little bit about Game of Thrones. You were cast in that one, I believe, when you were 11, which is an interesting circumstance. because most 11-year-olds are not watching Game of Thrones. You must have been aware of it, but not consuming it.

Did that put you in a weird spot at the time or no? Yeah, I guess so. I actually hadn't heard of it. But, yeah, I was 11, so it totally just wasn't in my world. Yeah, it's weird to me now because I didn't feel that young at the time. You never do. Like, you feel super old and, like, why? mature. But now I see 11-year-olds now and I'm like, wow, I was really small. Yeah, so it wasn't

really something I was aware of. I soon found out about it. My older sister, she's considerably older than me and she had watched it with her friends and was sort of educated us on what it was. Yeah. Did you, so did you read the books eventually at any point? Did you have any interest or did you just go off scripts and leave it at that? The books are far too big. No, definitely not. I'm noticing a consistency. She doesn't play the video games.

She doesn't read the books. Are you even reading the scripts, Bella? What work are you actually doing here? I'm reading the scripts two times over to make up for the fact that I, yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm going to get ripped apart for this. um the thing is right let me try and just let me try and redeem myself okay make your case i've not even read the fourth harry potter book goblot of fire because that's it's because because because it's very big i'm like i i don't have the the uh patience i guess for it i don't know uh i just got into graphic

novels which are like way easier to like process anyway uh yeah so i haven't read game maybe i will at some point i also haven't really watched all of the show yet so i need i've got so many things that i need to do and not enough time watch someone louise with pedro um read off game of thrones watch the mandolarian play the last of us part one and two you've got a long list of to do's um one of the odd things about and i came into game of thrones remarkably late myself like i i came in the last season i was like i could just got to watch this thing everybody's talking about and I just, like, binged it and became obsessed at the end. But, like, I quickly became up to speed on all the clinical controversies around the show.

It was a show that, as beloved as it was, for some reason, seemed to always attract something, whether it was the ending, they're too dark, the faithfulness to the books, is Calisi, a positive spin on, it just seemed like a lot. Were you, again, kind of like, did you feel removed from it? Did you feel silly to you? how is that kind of colored your perspective on pop culture and work going forward going through that madness? I felt sort of completely, I felt completely removed from it

because I was really not in it very much. So I didn't, the attention that had, like, on me was very, like, isolated. Right. Like, so it was, and, like, contained. I wasn't really talked about when it came to the show as a whole and

the specifics of it. I think the one controversy that I was slightly a part of was the coffee cup thing. Just because I will end those scenes. Who was the final culprit on that one? Was it Kit? No idea. Not a clue. Okay.

I lost track. It's a mystery still to be uncovered, yeah. Yeah. We'll never know, to be honest. They should do a fingerprint test. I mean, I guess it was long gone by then. Right, right. One of the great mysteries of life. So one of the also curious things, look,

what we're talking to you now and you are 19, going to be 20, you've been acting since you were like three or something insane like that. And there is this interesting, like, kind of transition for young actors, kids, into adults, where, like, when you're a kid acting, it's a different thing. Wouldn't you agree where it's like you're kind of like, there is performance, of course, and there's craft, but a lot of the early stuff is almost being there and being present and just kind of having a natural charisma and charm

and whatever you bring to the table. And it becomes less about that, I would think, as you get older, and more about calling upon different skills. I mean, am I off there? Does it feel like you're like, you have to kind of like develop new skills as you get older and kind of transition from being a kid to an adult actor? so i think actually the best adult actors are the ones that act in in the way that kids do which

like off instinct well i guess i don't know but i think even like for some uh like child actors i hate that phrase and i hated that when that was like put on me but um i think it yeah i think really like the less that you can think about it and like the less conscious it is like the better no that makes sense it's almost like stripping away all the the artifice and all the stuff to get back to the kid stuff i what you're saying makes total sense yes yeah exactly it's like like a child like innocence around around it and like a child like curiosity and it i think it that's what really um makes it believable i guess you just have it's like i guess just believing and finding the truth in what you're saying and who you're being and

yeah I think like for me it's very much still like an unconscious process and that's terrifying also because I don't know what I do so I'm terrified that one day I'm just just going to not be able to do the magic power is going to go away what happens yeah exactly I mean we'll see but yeah I think for as long as you can hold on to just like following your instincts about something and if your instincts are often correct like the better because then I think you can always tell when someone's overthinking it or or trying to be a certain way rather than just like being i don't know it all sounds so like mystical and whatever but i get it yeah yeah in the years that you've been acting which is almost your entire life like has it been a consistent thing where you're like you've been certain this was the path like have there been moments or years where you're like this is fun but i should probably think about doing something something else i mean i i i only professionally started when i was 11 But I've been doing, yeah, like amateur theatre groups growing up since I was three or four years old, just because it was fun.

And my oldest sister did it, and I thought she was really cool and still do, by the way. So I, so yeah, I just, I just, like, did it because I loved it. I never thought about it as a career. But, yeah, I guess since I was 11, like, from then onwards, I think because I didn't know that I wanted to be an actor, when it happened. It was such a happy accident. suddenly I felt like things slotted, like I, into place, like I found what I was meant to be doing by accident, sort of. So it was a really surreal sort of experience, and I, and I wouldn't trade it.

There's not been a moment where I've wanted to do anything else, other than, like, in the industry, even if, even if, like, I do lose the ability to act one day, like, I will start on set, I will be a runner, and then I'll be, like, a third AD. Like, I will be on set, even like a I it's just it's a um it's just a one they're just wonderful places and I I feel so at home on on a set and I think I would as um just being there so yeah that that co that collegial atmosphere of the collaboration the kind of everyone for a common good a common cause trying to push a boulder up the hill kind of a thing yeah exactly and and the relationships that are formed out of that and are so unique and most of the time you know

never talk to the people again that you've spent like a year with because you all get busy and then like you meet a few years later and it's like meeting an old friend that you've known like all your life. It's the coolest thing. And it doesn't, yeah, I've not found that anywhere else in my life. So it's really cool. And outside of like, you know, earlier on we were talking about the oath and kind of not reading the message boards and all that kind of thing, like, you know, it's an industry often based on judgment sadly, right? And that's tough for anyone, let alone kids or young adults, and outside of not reading the message boards, what have you found is helpful for you to kind of like maintain being a happy, somewhat well-adjusted human being? Great question. I mean, in terms of how far the judgment sort of goes, I've not, I've not experienced much of that. I've been fairly sort of sheltered from that.

just because I've been in, I guess, yeah, Ellie is the first time that's happened on a bigger scale. Right. But I think I just, I don't know, like, I'm, I live in, like, my little village with people that I've known, like, adults that I've known my whole life. And I'm still, like, I think in a way, like my childhood, like, I'm coming to a lot of things later than, like, a lot of people my, feel in a way a lot older than me but in certain ways I feel a lot older than them so that's

sort of a weird balancing act and I feel like I'm just experiencing outside of like acting and stuff I just sort of get to experience the normal things that like a 19 year old experience maybe just like I don't know in a different sort of way but silver I don't I just I've just change you know I'm saying no no it makes sense oh look she hasn't gone Hollywood you're not living in Beverly Hills rolling up in your Rolls Royce, you're, you're living a real life, an authentic life. Yeah, exactly. I still, I live in the same house of ways there's like, I've not, I've only changed

in ways that like, like, then you naturally are meant to change from like when you're 11 until you're 19. Right. So, and I just like play football locally with like my friends in it. It's like nothing really has changed apart from that that now every time I go out, I get recognized by at least one person like that sort of the change but that because that's manageable you just right have a nice self yeah with somebody and then and then it's sort of it's done so you can you can you can dip into l.A or new york when you do the press you get to go to a big

fancy award show enjoy that silliness for what it's worth as long as it's the perspective that really keeps us grounded and sane and it seems like so far so good um i really appreciate the time Bella. Good luck on a lot of things. Good luck on watching and reading a thousand books, apparently, passing the driver's test. You've got a long to-do list, and now we have to add season two of The Last of Us. I'm sorry, but you've got some work to do. I'm really excited about that. That doesn't even feel like work. Excellent. Thanks for the time today. It's been a real pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for chatting with me. And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes, or

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