Happy Sad Confused - Ben McKenzie

Episode Date: March 26, 2018

Lightning has struck three times for Ben McKenzie when it comes to beloved TV shows but the guy could use a break. 22 hours of TV a year isn't for lightweights and nowadays Ben's a father and a husband (to co-star Morena Baccarin) but he still knows how lucky he is. And of course it all started with "The O.C.". On this episode of "Happy Sad Confused", Ben talks frankly about the opportunity and frustrations associated with becoming a teen heartthrob virtually out of nowhere. Plus he discusses the critically beloved series, "Southland", and his current project, "Gotham", in which he's just directed his second episode.   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

D.C. high volume, Batman. The Dark Nights definitive DC comic stories adapted directly for audio for the very first time. Fear, I have to make them afraid. He's got a motorcycle. Get after him or have you shot. What do you mean blow up the building? From this moment on,

none of you are safe. New episodes every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts. Today on Happy Say I Confused, Ben McKenzie on Gotham, directing, and the O.C. Hey, guys, I'm Josh Horowitz. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. I'm Josh. That's Sammy.

Hi. If you point to me, they don't know that you're pointing to me. That's the only way you'll know to speak. Got it. It's my cue. We've rehearsed this for months. It's true. Um, today's guest is Ben McKenzie.

You know Ben McKenzie, of course, from three very notable shows, uh, Southland. One. People love the Southland. Um, of course, Gotham now in its fourth season. Two. I'm like Sammy. I got distracted by your, there's a costume here of 11 from stranger things. I got distracted by.

That was sent to me just to clarify. Got it. And three, I'll say three because I don't can't rely on you. Don't count on me. Uh, the O.C. which was, of course, the series that, you know, launched his career. Catapulted. Catapulted Ben McKenzie to fame and fortune.

Ryan Atwood was, of course, his character on that show. And, yes, we talk quite a bit about the O.C. Sammy. I know what the people want. They're going to freak out. He's a... I really like talking to Ben. I don't think I've spoken to him much before, if at all. But I think we did.

We connected it in a very profound way. I feel like you guys have probably passed each other in the halls at Comic-Con at some point. I think I probably talked to him at Comic-Con, yes, if I really plumbed the depths of my memory. Because I remember talking to her at Comic-Cone. Marina Baccaron, his wife. His immortal beloved. Yes, right. They have a baby together now.

I think a two-year-old, actually. Named Batman. No, not true. Yeah, so we cover a lot in this conversation from the O.C. And how that show did catapult his career and how he's kind of reconciled that show and the fame and the fortune and the silly, you know, idea of becoming a teen idol. And how, you know, he followed that up with a really stellar work on stuff like Southland and then returned yet again for another hit TV show in Gotham, which is now in its fourth season. Ben was on not only to talk about Gotham, but they talked about his directing on Gotham.

He has directed his second episode. You can catch that this Thursday evening. Always like it when, you know, actors are, you know, taking the bull by the horns. They want to, you know, you want to have some degree of control in your career. and Ben is, you know, interested in producing and directing and not making 22 episodes of a network show in the future. We laugh about sort of like the grueling nature of that. I really enjoyed chatting with him.

So that's coming up on this edition of Happy Say I Confused. Also worth mentioning, Sammy, you and I, we want to give our quick mini non-spoiler reviews. Non-spoiler reviews. Because we shared two special evenings at the theater. seeing Harry Potter and the cursed child I think Sammy now owes me

forever because it's like annoying I know it's like I can't ever be mad at you like it's annoying for now for now yeah that'll last a week yes we had a blast we had a lot of fun going to see

oh it's so good it's very good I had not read the play I am not the Harry Potter of Fisciano you are I of course know and love Harry Potter the movies The movies. Never read the books.

Okay, now you're turning the audience against me. Well, they should know. They know by now to just be prepared for disappointment when it comes to me. I got it. I got this, guys. I got the Harry Potter. But yes, tons of surprises in there. We're not going to spoil anything.

No, but you guys have to see it. It's obviously an insanely hard ticket. I walked into these tickets. Six hours of Harry Potter. It's perfect. It's really good. And the production is stellar. It's just,

it's next level. I've never seen anything like it. The audience literally goes, ooh, it's like amazing. Yeah, it's definitely a unique theatrical experience. Magical. Okay. Magical experience. Magical experience.

So, yes, that's our mini, total non-spoiler review. It's, yeah, it's a fun take on. I'd love to do a spoiler review one day. DM me for spoilers. I'll tell you everything. Get up, Sammy. She'll be happy to talk at length. Yes.

So anyway, yeah, I saw a lot of theater in the last week. I saw that in seven and a half hours of Angels in America. Two, two-act plays. And you keep confusing them. No, that's not true. Hopefully, I think, well, it's not jinxing it because I've talked to them about this. I think Andrew Garfield's going to come on the podcast. I saw, I got a chance to go backstage after Angels and see both Lee Pace, who's been on the podcast and is very, very good in the show.

He's actually new to the production, and I got a chance to see Andrew afterwards as well. Did you say nude of the production or nude in the production? Okay, yes, Lee Pace does happen to be naked in this production. Yeah, cool. Not the entire performance. Was he naked backstage or? I'm not going to betray the trust of a friend. Okay.

Yes, they're both excellent in it. So hopefully, I think Andrew's going to be on and it'd be great to have lead back on as well. So we'll see. Anyway, that's theater. But let's talk a little TV with a guy that's had not one, not two, three major successes. Three major successes in television. Ben McKenzie. And of course, one last reminder, review rate.

Subscribe. Please spread the good word of happy, set confused. Please. Please. Don't make us beg. Ben, please. Yeah, Ben, if you're listening to this, we had a good time. Would it kill you to write a review?

If it was as real as Josh thought it was, write a review. It felt special. Here is this conversation with Ben McKenzie, and remember to check out Gotham this Thursday evening for Ben's second directing effort. Welcome to my office. Ben McKenzie is here. There's no official introduction, man. We're just going to chat.

Dude. Like some human beings. Oh, God. What a novel concept. Well, at least one of us will pretend to be a human being. That's your job. I don't know what I'm going to do. Oh, I thought that was your job.

No, no, no. Oh, no. We're so fucked. Oh, God. A lot to cover. Congratulations. are in order. Gotham, obviously,

fourth season, right? Is that what we're in? It is, yes. Time flies. Yeah, I know. You're like, yeah. So slowly it flies. And it's not like you now

have a kid and a wife and a life and directing and all this shit to kind of deal with. So, no, but a lot of congratulations in order. Talk to me a little bit about, you know, you found yourself you've become a New Yorker by now. Yeah.

Do you feel like a New Yorker by now? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's your New Yorker voice. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, no. Yeah, I mean, as much as this, like, Texas-born, you know, guy who lived in California for however many years I lived in there over a decade can be.

Yeah, we love it here. I mean, it's amazing. Do you think you'll stay here after eventually Gotham is done? That's what we want to do. Yeah, yeah, we want to raise our daughter and my stepson here if we can. And, you know, we just love it, you know? I mean, we occasionally actually get to see theater, and it's just such a, you know, an international city.

I love LA as well But living here has been just I'm one of those rare breeds I grew up in the city I turned out semi-decent I'm a semi-coherent human being Some values in me Definitely at least halfway

Where did you go to school? I went to so I grew up on the main streets At the Upper West Side I was like to say But no I went to Stuyvesant And then I actually We live right by Stuyvesant Oh really? Yeah

There was an old Stuyvesant. Oh, right, right, right, right. See, that shows I'm not a real New York. No, it just means I'm ancient. But no, I'm glad to hear that you found, because you were in New York for a hot minute early in the career, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, long, long time ago, started out here, ended up in L.A., and I'm so glad to be back.

Yeah, totally. So talk to me a little, I mean, when you're done with, because, you know, you're not in one of these silly little 10 episode Netflix shows where you get to live an actual life. Your life is Gotham. Yes, it is. Like, what, 22, 24 episodes a year or something like that? 22.

22, old school. Yeah. The way they used to do it back in the day. I know, I talked to, I had, like, I had Julian Anderson in here, like, a year or two ago, and she was talking about, like, just the sheer volume they used to do. They did, like, 200 X-Files episodes. Yeah, yeah.

And, like, you could see, like, her, like, eyes glaze over and her dye inside as she described it. That's right. She becomes an alien. Seriously. So when you're done with this season, are you done by now? Just wrapped on Friday. Nice. Congrats. Thank you. So are you going to stick around or do you go back home? I'm actually going to LA after all that. We're going to LA for a little bit of work stuff and life stuff.

But yeah, we get about three months off. You know, it's the old school network TV season. Ours is actually a little elongated even from that because we start earlier. There's a lot of post-production on the show, which you probably saw in the episode. Yeah, I mean, you know, green screen work and all kinds of crazy stuff. And so it is a full-time job. Is the lifestyle of like a network 20-plus episode television season like suit you at this point? Or do you feel like it's like you've put in your time? I think this may be the last one.

He says as politely as possible. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, everything is changing so quickly, obviously. and there are so many different ways of telling stories now. And it is, as you have heard, I'm sure, many, many times the golden age of television. So if you can tell a story in 10 to 13 or 15 or anything, God forbid, other than 22, and be more creatively on point, be able to tell them more sort of, you know, trying to find right words less meandering more focused let's describe it as more focused and not use negative words and use positive words to describe it find a more focused way of storytelling then

then why not I mean obviously as actors you're paid by the episode but it's not like you need to do 22 episodes to sort of it's it yes there's a lifestyle that I that I look forward to is part of the reason this is your second directing effort for Gotham is part of the reason to do something like this also just like, I mean, I'm sure it fulfills a few different reasons for you. I mean, you know, opens up a whole new area of creativity that you can grow in and explore. Yeah. And also just sort of like keeps it fresh. Yes. Um, all those boxes kind of ticking. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I mean, you know, uh, probably shouldn't even say it out loud, um, for risk that it will never happen. But the, the, the goal for me would be to do something

where I can be involved on all those different levels so that they can sort of push yourself creatively. I mean, I saw what Jason Payman did with Ozark, for example. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Not saying I'm anywhere near that. He's a fantastic director, and I don't know him from Adam, so speaking of no. But just professionally, you know, he got that script and became...

Did he direct, like, all of those episodes? I don't think all of them, but he did many. and obviously was the lead and I think I'm sure was involved in sort of breaking the story and all that stuff so that's a great kind of thing is exactly what I'd like to doing. So when you walk into directing an episode of Gotham

like you know there's a system obviously in place like you know you don't want to be thrown to the wolves and something like that and you have to obviously keep consistent with something that you've built over what 70 plus episodes that you guys have done. Right. An 88. Who's an 88?

Who's counting? Why do I imagine in your home There's like a giant wall And you like etched in blood After every episode Yeah It's an entire wall It's an entire room

And I just go in there And Rand's like Ben Can you come out now? Yeah Almost Is that the baby Or is that Ben

That's a grown man in there Growing grown man tears Cracked open by network television Exactly Oh the pain It's like Can you imagine anything less sort of substantive than like an existential crisis over doing network television.

Oh, God, what's sort of sad experience? Privilege problems, it's okay, it's okay. So, but do you still, do you feel like a little room to kind of play in that sandbox or do you feel rained in when you're within the Gotham conference? No, no, no, no, no. I mean, there's, honestly, no, I don't feel rained in at all, really. I mean, the structure is there in a good way in the sense that, you know, it's not like you have to start your own

it's not like you get the script and you're like oh great I've got to hire the crew and I've got to build the stages and I've got you know everything is there and honestly we really and this is truly not even me kissing their ass asses but we have unbelievably talented people both in front of the camera but behind it we have two DPs that are phenomenal

and the production design team it's incredible unbelievable visual effects that just won an Emmy, actually, last year for their work on the show. So we've got an unbelievable sort of ball club that you get to sort of manage for, you know, a game or whatever the equivalent is. Yeah, one game out of 88. And so that's really freeing, and then you're able to kind of play within it. I mean, based obviously on the script that you're given. Right. And was this like, is it the luck of the draw of, like, what script do you get?

Pretty much. I mean, you know, quite frankly, John Stevens, our showrunner, did me a real solid by assigning me Charlie Houston, who wrote the script, who's a terrific writer and novelist as well. He assigned me, or so assigned Charlie to that script so that I ended up getting this terrific script, which had a lot of really fun stuff in it. A lot of effects work, so there's a fair amount of green screen. Sure. So that was new to me. I really had never done that as director. I never done in green screen work so that was that was interesting um but man i got lucky and it helped me look good and you uh because i remember also it came up a couple years ago i don't know if you

guys are still trying to develop it the um the dickey movie the uh r a dicky movie right right which i still hope will come to fruition in some capacity is it still some of you guys are trying to work on or someone else or what yeah i mean it's around you know i think the problem is those movies that because it's you know it's a it's a it's a movie that takes place, it partially takes place in the major leagues. This is about Ari Dickey, the knuckleball pitcher who, you know, spent over a decade in the minors and then became, you know, suddenly, seemingly, seemingly suddenly, but actually over the course of, you know, 20 years, became one of the best pitchers of baseball.

And my partner, Logan, Marshall Green, and I, Logan, who famously played Trey on the O.C. Most famous obviously, yeah. I think that's how people will know him through. me in the sense. I mean, he has much better body of work, but I'll reduce it for the audience to that. We

in any way, he found a story and didn't want to tell it. It's hard to make those movies in that medium range is what I guess I was originally saying. It's like it's really hard. You need, you know, you would need major league baseball licensing. You need to make it fit, you know, and that's just a really hard thing to do. Are you guys still trying to work on other stuff and

yeah, yeah, yeah, he's got other things. He actually just directed his first movie, Logan, just directed a script that he wrote that Blumhouse produced and Ethan Hawke starred. I assume I can say all this. I hope so. Anyway, it's too late now. End of a friendship. Yeah, I know. These things have to run their course. Often they end on podcasts. Yeah, I know, right? It's all over now. It's really the 2018 way to end a friendship over a podcast. It's super modern at least. Yeah, exactly. You're always the cutting edge. It strikes me like, you know, we're joking about sort of like the time you put into like these TV series like the three the ones that you're

you know most known for of course that have sucked in a big portion of your life out in a good way I mean suck might be the wrong word why are you describing in exactly the way I think of it in your diary sucked in the best possible way but wait what do you mean okay I'm going to turn this into positive it's just kidding but um but they are all like they couldn't be more different from each other I mean aside if you did like a three camera sitcom I guess that really, we go somewhere right different. But, you know, you start on something like the O.C., which is like

slick and everyone's just gorgeous and and kind of meticulously produced in its own way to like the rough and tumble Southland and then to another kind of meticulous but very highly stylized world of Gotham.

Like when you look at all these three jobs, like does it feel like, there are three wildly different jobs when you think about it. Do you think about about them that way? I do. 100%. And I've taken different things

from each of them. Yeah. And I... Sorry, you finished the question. I was going to say, I guess I didn't really have a question except I was throwing a lot of information out there. But to say, like,

what, does Gotham feel like something that was built on the shoulders of those experiences, or did it feel like starting from scratch, or did it feel analogous to anything you've done? I think you were always building on what you've done before

in the sense that, you know, you, one of the wonderful things about a really tough business with the highs can be very high and the lows can be very low is that if you are sort of mildly functional, you are absorbing a lot of information that you're not even necessarily aware of until you get to the next job. And then you get to the next job and you realize, because inevitably on any job, any life, you know, there's decision trees throughout your life every day, almost every minute of every day. There's like, I could handle the situation this way or this way. Usually you start by doing the wrong thing as you're young and you make many, many, many, many, many mistakes.

But if you're smart, you think, okay, well, I won't handle it that way next time. And you also just sort of, you know, you absorb, you know, you absorb so much of an intuitive understanding of how things work. Right. And going from the O.C. to Southland, going from, like you said, that sort of like slickly produced, soap operator type thing to a real rough and tumble, John Wells produced, like, intense experience was such an education that I was able to take that experience to Gotham. And I think that's actually, in a way, I think that's how Bruno Heller, who created Gotham and wrote the part of Gordon, you know, thinking of me.

I think that's how I'd probably register on his radar. I mean, they were all Warner Brothers, they're all Warner Brothers shows. so they've worked at that company for a long time. But I think that was an opportunity to show people, Gotham, Southland was an opportunity to show people that, you know, wasn't just things. Yeah, exactly. Like, I think it's obviously very easy if you are only doing a teen soap.

That there's many people who sort of never are able to continue on in any... And it's a comfortable life, too, if you want to kind of just kind of ease into it. Yes. Yes, yes. And so you have to kind of, like, prove your... prove you're worth doing other stuff and I think that was helpful but but yeah I do I do I literally think of Gotham as as the sort of bizarre and certainly unplanned like culmination of another decade prior of different work you know where I can kind of fuse the two a little bit

Gotham like you know also came you know at a very unique time like in our pop culture history where like comic books you know took over the landscape and like because I remember when we're roughly around the same age but I remember when I was a kid like the odd comic book inspired TV show was like just like such a not was like I remember the original the flash TV show right and it was like so exciting and they usually were horrible yes they were but like it was like so it was it was you know very rare yeah and then someone like like Bruno He was coming off of what was he doing Rome right and he did Rome and then the mentalist and then and then yeah so I mean like the fact that like these kinds of shows were were and are

attracting kind of the level of talent they are now is such a difference. Were you, I know this is the standard of a Comic-Con question, but like I'll ask it anyway, growing up, were you into comics? Was that your world? Or what was, give me a sense of your sensibilities as a kid of the 80s, 90s? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it was kind of, you know, it was present in the sense that, you know, you could hardly escape comics, you know, if you're a child of, of, of, you know, our approximate age, unless you sort of like purposefully I absolutely loathe, which would be a bizarre stance to take as a young child. So I remember seeing the Burton Batman's in the movie theater,

which had a huge effect, or obviously an effect on me. I never was an aficionado. I mean, weirdly enough, not to like jump into some sort of a battle between Warner's and between DC and Marvel, but Iron Man was like the thick comic that I had. We had a nice, like, bound copy of like

one of the graphic novels of Iron Man. But I think the Frank Miller badmands were very impactful when I was like a teenager to finally kind of stumble upon those and think about oh wow, there's like a whole other way of doing this that's much more, that was you know, kind of scary at the time. I agree.

Yeah, I remember, yeah, again, I'm a couple years older than you, but I do remember Dark Night Returns, and I remember reading then, like, Watchmen and, like, these kind of, like, adult comics that was just, like, it really kind of was, like, it exploited, like, it's just, like, reoriented, like, this is even possible, and this, like,

it's like, you're sneaking something past your parents. Totally, and especially, given where pop culture was at the time, it wasn't, that wasn't what we were seeing on the screen, right? What we were seeing on the screen was like, da-da-da-da-da-da-da, you know, it was like Joel Schumacher was doing Batman and Robin at the same time that you saw, you know? Right.

It was like George Clooney's nipples were out there while you were reading about, you know, sort of existential crises of, you know, like grim, neo-noir, like, you know, worlds. It was a total, yeah, it was a little bit of a, like, good slap in the face. Like, I go, oh, wow, this is exciting. So has been, like, kind of, you know, living in this world for a few years made you, is, is there an oversaturation point where, like, the last thing you want to do is watch, like, a super? superhero movie at this point, or are you still? Yeah, I mean, there is, to be honest with you. I mean, I, it depends on what it is, but I, I think we're at a saturation point in general, but, but, but, you know, then again, you know, Black Panther, which is, I actually

have not seen it, I'm embarrassed, I have two kids, that's my only excuse. I am planning on seeing it. I bet it's fantastic. I know several people in it. I'm really excited to see it. But other than, and Black Panther made a billion, or billions, Avengers will make them a fortune. Deadpool, too, is going to be the hot movie of the summer.

What's going on? But I think that overall, especially in television, how many shows they're being made, I mean, I think it's like, really? We're going to do another one? Yeah. I think at some point we have to kind of, you know, move on to something else. Although, defined broadly enough, what is a superhero show, right?

Like, you could sort of take any particular point of view you want. Well, and I think that's certainly, especially in film, we're seeing the ones that are breaking through, if there's a silver lining, it's like when you see something like Justice League, which I'll say, because, you know, I don't want to get you get in trouble with D.C. was not a great success creatively. And see, the audience reject that. Right. But then to embrace something that feels a little innovative, whether it's Logan, which really, you know, went in a great direction or Black Panther, guardians. You know, it's the ones that are kind of screwing with kind of the conventional format that seem to... And that's needed because, as you say, we're getting seven to ten movies and seven to ten TV series a year. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I think you're right. And right now it seems to be, you know, not to like define it too broadly, but it seems like the ones that can send themselves up and have a sense of humor about, you know, Guardians or Deadpool or whatever. and or the ones that have a different cultural reference point, different point of view, like Black Panther, the ones that are going to at least shift a conversation a little bit and keep it fresh, keep it interesting. You know, and I'm happy to watch them and enjoy them, those specific ones, but everything else is kind of like,

you know, that's overload. Totally. And honestly, you know, if you're living in it, you just got to want to. What was funny about Gotham was we, you know, from when Bruno first called me and sent me the script that he'd written, you know, the conversations that he, he and I were having, and Danny Cannon as well, who directed the pilot and is our, you know,

our maestro of the look and feel of the show from a visual standpoint. They were, the references were all, you know, kind of like 70s, New York. And this, doing this noir-ish show set in the world of Batman that really wasn't, clearly didn't have Batman in it, and it wasn't as, I think, kind of, it wasn't exactly what the show became, to be completely honest with you.

Not in unnecessarily a bad way, but I think that's sort of the demands of network television. It was supposed to be a little bit more, you know, at least not that we ever would have gotten away with it, given the powers that be, but like what we wanted to do, I think, was a little bit more like Rabin Chandler-esque, a little more, you know, this kind of, that year one feel, if I think of the comics. In a big way. More than any other reference point, or Gotham Central, like that, you know, inside a police department that happens to be in the most famous, you know, pretend city that's ever existed, that has this Batman character lurking in the deep, deep background, but is really more about the kind of Greek tragedy of a city, an entire, like, set it in a place that's completely falling apart that will only continue to do so as this one.

one guy, this one every man, normal guy has to kind of like, you know, beat back the barbarians at the gate and ultimately fail in order to to manifest his destiny, which is to, you know, basically be the bad man before there's a Batman. Right, right, right. Hard to resist that rogue's gallery, though. Yeah. It's like you've got so much kind of juiciness and I think you guys have been able to achieve a balance. I mean, it's, it's a challenge. I mean, every show goes through that though it's and and you when you're doing network TV it's like well we want our you know we want our bad guy to come in we want to have the stuff for the trailer to read for the episode and we want to you know and like you got to keep

yeah priming the pump and there's always that unfortunate and and almost inevitable when you're doing 22 like well what's what's next week's big action sequence that we're gonna so let's go back a little bit so you were you were born raised in Austin yes before it was cool and hip to be in Austin You were, you were a trendsetter. I'm an OG. Was Austin that much different back when you were growing up? I mean, I've only been, again, recent years because of like South by.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it feels like it's, you know, now every Friday Night Lights member was there. Right. It's true. Take it over. I know, well, you know, we got us wrong. It does feel, I mean, it's, it hasn't changed, it's not completely different than it was growing up, but it was a much smaller town.

I mean, it has grown unbelievably fast, just, just, just. sort of, in terms of its actual physical size, which becomes something more than that, because effectively so many of those people are transplants, right? Not to knock them, it's great. I think the culture has remained seemingly, when I went back for Christmas for a week or two, it seems like pretty similar, you know, but you, not to sound like an old fuddy-duddy, but you will, you know, you do bemoan a little bit of the, like, smaller, town charm or the Austin and keep Austin weird that old bummer sticker like you it's not quite

as weird as it used to be you know it's like it's weird but it's also got all this like you know tech you know money and and and which is great it's got a lot of like you know baristas wearing their overalls and mustache is like serving you your five dollar lattes and whatnot so we'll just live in Brooklyn. Yeah, it's kind of like Williamsburgs. The world has become Williamsburg, basically. Love Williamsburg. So, and growing up, you did have some connection

to the business I know. I mean, your uncle is and was a successful screenwriter, correct? Yeah, and playwright. And, yeah, Robert Shankan. And that's how I first, that's how it first creeped into my subconscious that I could even possibly do this at some point later, which I hadn't decided until I was sort of in college, really,

but I saw this play that my uncle Robert wrote the Kentucky cycle. I saw that first in L.A. and then on Broadway when I was like 12, maybe something like that. And I remember because my mom had, we had to get blazers and buy blazers, matching blazers and slacks and a dress shirt and a tie and go to the theater. I appreciate that you wore the same exact outfits on podcast today. You can't see it, but I swear. wearing the same. It's a little tighter on him now. He grew up a little bit. It's weird, right. It really shows off the muscles. I remember seeing that and that was like a big, had a big effect. It's funny. It's funny because like I try to go to theater as much as possible

here in New York. Why not? If you're in New York, you want to take advantage of that. And I always think when I go to like, I got a chance to see Angels in America, this new production, which is like seven and a half hours. And it's like, and I think what I'm saying they're like, I'm appreciating it. And I, and I always hope and think that it's very likely that there is someone in that audience Like, theater has that ability to, I feel, like, just ignite something in a kid and spark a passion, like, even almost more than a film can in a way. Every time I sit in a theater eyes, I look across those young, young faces and the audience is seven-year-olds with their blue hair, and I think they're just going to be inspired to change. They're going to become brand. They're going to be the artists of the next turn.

No, you're right. It's a cynical. No, you're right. I should be the cynical one. born and raised New York. You were keeping Austin weird. I know, but you're right. You're right, though. You're right. I think nothing can, nothing can mimic experiencing something live. And I think it's actually, I would argue possibly, I don't know, because I'm not a member of this generation, but it would be only

more true today because young people are so inundated with visual screen, you know, experiences of creativity as opposed to live. Like the novel idea of the actually. something being in their presence. Yeah, you know, and maybe it's Hamilton for this generation, which great, or whatever the experience is, but it reminds you that, you know, there is such a thing as, like, true unfiltered performance live in front of you without heavy editing and green screen work and all this other stuff. So were those kind of lofty ideas in your head when you were taking up acting in college, or was it, oh, there's some attractive girls over there, I want to go where they are, or what was the...

Do I have to shoot? I think it was definitely a little bit of both, but it was, I was really in that way that I think teenagers are particularly prone to, like, searching for something that wasn't just my studies that were sort of further dry, and I was studying economics and political science, and I was, you know, kind of had this like, yeah, this is really interesting, but, man, why am I, you know, kind of not inspired. Why is this doesn't feel like a passionate pursuit.

It feels a little sort of, you know, intellectual. And and you see a play or two, and then you do an acting class or two, and then you really just sort of give over to it and you fall in love. So that's Virginia, correct?

Yes, right. Move to New York. You just set the world on fire here. Not quite, not quite. I think I was third spear carrier from the left, like almost literally, in a production here, one production. And that was basically my... But why did you move to New York and not L.A. at first? Because that was the dream, right? I mean, that was not to be...

This is true. I would really... I just felt like if I was going to try this and fail, which I assumed I would, because it's a tough business. And I didn't... I was, you know, certainly humble and hope to be like... like, I don't know what I'm doing. Right. Fail the right way and fail in the way of doing like off,

off Broadway theater and waiting tables. And I accomplished both of those. Off, off Broadway theater and I had to wait a table. And then, you know, L.A. was this foreign land I really didn't have. You know, I went to school on the East Coast or Virginia. The people that I knew out of school were mainly moving to New York, either to go to grad school or to get into it. Right.

It just seemed natural. And I did that for a second. And then I got lucky. A friend of mine, a friend of my uncles, actually, was willing to introduce me to his agent in L.A. And I, you know, over a course of six months, like, finally, you know, booked something. Started to get a few guest spots here and there.

So how long, what kind of period of time are we talking before the, quote, unquote, big break and the OC happens? Well, it was really quick in terms of, I moved out to L.A. So I spent less than a year in New York. It was, 9-11 also happened like that same year. So it was a very strange time to appear. And hard to, the business was obviously weird, you know, kind of pause because, you know, some bigger things were happening. Ended up going to L.A. and a year after that, I booked the O.C. After almost a year to the day that I lived with that.

And was it at the time just another audition? Or did it? It was. I was, I was getting some traction at Warner Brothers because, I tested for some other pilot that never ended up going. And then when that didn't happen, they were like, oh, we'll come in and write read for the, for the U.S.A. So, yeah, just luck. And how, when you think back to those early days of that show,

like is it, does it feel like a blur? Like it sort of happened quickly? Because it feels like remembering when it came on, once it came on, it immediately struck a chord with that a core audience. Yes. Did it feel like that to you, like a whirlwind at the time? Oh, yeah, total whirlwind. And now it's kind of fuzzier because I'm so old.

But a blur in the way that it went down for sure, because you just, you just, you can't possibly, no one I would argue, but certainly not a 23-year-old, 24-year-old kid, whatever I was, can possibly keep up with how fast your life has changed. I mean, I went from sleeping on the floor of my friend's apartment in the valley, the floor of the floor of the, the floor of the, a very nice but modest apartment in the valley and driving a car that I bought for literally $500 off of the penny saver that I had to, you know, slip the guy at 20 to like pass the smog inspection because that was never going to work out. 1986 Cadillac de Ville. 228,000 miles on it to no AC, radiator shop. Are you going through something right now?

Do I enjoy that leave for you? I mean, I know the story very well because I lived it and it was a very like, I don't know that I, you know, that your first year and L.A. was like the loneliest I've ever been in my life. Yeah. You know, like, no, there's nothing worse probably than not succeeding in L.A. Yes. Right. Put it very well.

Because it's only, it's a town that only exists for success, right? And it's only there to sort of, like, spur you to be competitive with every possible person around it. What is your function in the universe here if you're not actually able to get the right table and be recognized? What fucking used to you have? No, I do find it that way. I mean, I can't, and maybe it's different if you're not, if you're one of the blessed few who are not in the entertainment business out there. But it's such a, it's such a beautiful place in terms of the weather and the beach and all that.

And it's such a competitive place. Yeah. I find it really, really kind of insane. So, yeah, I, you know, I got a call and I got it. And life, you know, if I went from, you know, effectively having, you know, a dollar to my name. to all of a sudden I'm the, you know, the lead, one of the leads of this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, it was like,

it was a real, uh, it was a doozy as they, as the kids say. As the kids say, I still use that phrase. I appreciate that. Um, how did you deal with fame at the time poorly? I mean, I don't know. I did, I mean, I think I did like, on the scale. I was gonna say on the relative scale. I don't, I haven't seen too many horrible mug shots or whatever of you like. That's true. I've never been arrested. I feel like I should point that out. I feel like on the scale of teen idols, I did great.

Exactly. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like I don't have a reality show that I'm starring in. You hit it well. Whatever shit you were going through, I don't know about it. So congratulations. Thank you very much. No, it was fine. It was just like, you know, you, you, my, after years of therapy, I'm able to finally, like,

perceive it in the eyes of a 39 year old man in the way that I think at least it's better it has some context which is you I knew enough to know I didn't deserve it because no one deserves it right because it's not a thing that one it's not like you you know no one deserves like all that sort of attention fame right money all that but you don't know enough not to handle that as gracefully as one ought to and then you really can't not at that age I mean no one really can it seems like a recipe to turn anyone at that age like 20 to 25 with that kind of success that kind of heat people throwing themselves out you in different metaphorical in whatever ways you inevitably that brings out the asshole I think in all of us

it's to some degree absolutely because you're kind of like you're kind of it's it's hard to exist. And it's also just, it's a way of like, um, you, you, you're also really scared, you know, you're also really, you know, it happens, it happens so fast and you're like, well, this guy, I was just, I was the same guy. Yeah. That's the mind fuck where it's like I was literally that guy. So why are, yeah, so why is it all, you know, and, and so it's hard to find, you know, it's hard to find people you can trust. It's hard to find meaningful relationships, romantic or otherwise, and it takes time. And it takes making some mistakes to be able to correct them.

Did Fox try to cultivate like an image for you? Like, because you're playing this kind of bad boy guy. Was there an active kind of like, we need to kind of like portray? Because you're not that guy. Well, if you, yeah, yeah. No, that's true. That's very true. And I remember like pushing back pretty strongly.

But I remember, did they cultivate an image? I'll give you a very specific example of how they cultivated an image. When the show first came out, they did these like one, sheets these you know the the posters that were in I don't know malls and bus stops and whatever and and they did a like a Photoshop version of our each of us as a kind of a you know like a glamour shot and they added this CG'd stubble to my face to make me look like I basically looked like George Michael I had this like really blonde hair and I was obviously very young and better looking than I am now and and they added in this

this bizarro stubble that just didn't exist. I was like a baby face kit. And so I looked like, I pull up the image and you'll see. I look like George Michael or a, you know, whatever, a, whatever, Hitler youth slash, slash George Michael. They're putting into that Hitler youth audience. Yeah, exactly. But it was like, it was really bizarre, right?

And I remember just going, oh, I'm on a, I'm on a trip now that I have no control over. You know what I mean? Like, there's no handbook for this. There's no, you can't disavow an image that's like, oh, that's, that's kind of like me, but then they just went a whole other direction. And you have to kind of go, all right, I'm playing the role of, in our own limited, you know, whatever we were Thursday night to date on Fox Way, rock star. You're playing the young rock star role.

So you have to meld that with your reality, which is that you're sleeping on the floor of your friend's apartment in the valley and driving a 500 other car. I would imagine you've gone through quite a journey in reconciling that show, which obviously made you, made your career, and you can never forget that. I can never. I mean, no one will ever let. Thank you. No one will ever let you forget that. That's true.

But I just forgot it yesterday and now you're bringing it back up. No, no, no. But in terms of reconciling, like this did all these great things for me. I wouldn't be here without it. 100%. But also, it's, it follows you probably every day. Every. No, you're absolutely right.

I am incredibly grateful for it. I learned an enormous amount from it. It, you know, put my name out there so that someone would hire me for a show afterwards and, you know, paid me money and did all these wonderful things. And yet you have mixed feelings about it. And I think that, you know, I'm at the risk. of, like, you know, offending somebody out there who loves the show, those are two different things.

I love the show, too. It was great. I had a great time on it. I'm proud of a... I was going to say, all, and then I was like, most. I was like, definitely a good percentage of the work that I did. A good percentage. Okay, good.

There was some unfortunate hair choices. I'll be honest. There's some self-tanner that I think probably should not have agreed to be self-tanned. You're a company ma'am. You know, I'm a company man. But there were, you know, there's a lot of great stuff out of there. And at the same time, I have to allow myself to, you know, to create a distance there and to go, yeah, that was a part of my life. It has now been 15 more years and I'm a slightly different person.

And you've built a body of work past it now. And it's like, I would imagine a tiny little part of you dies inside when, like, you're coming off of Southland and you're in the middle of Gotham and it's like, and you're at the Starbucks and someone screams Ryan Atwood. would. Exactly. Correct, correct. And it's not, I don't blame people for that. Like, that's fine. I, I, I, you enter this pop cultural, you know, the zeitgeist and like, if, even for a minute and people will always have that reference, right? Like, I'm staring at your, at your wall and it's, you know, it's, Michael J. Fox will always be Marty McFlaughty. You know, people probably still yell at it. And, and honestly, it actually becomes quite a lot easier, um, as you get older and have a body of work to say, yeah, cool, man, you recognize

something. Admittedly, I did 15 years ago, but, like, that's great. That's not a problem, because I also have Southland, and every time I go to an airport, like, the TSA guys are like, dude, Southland, because every TSA guy aspired to be a cop. And then, you know, the Gotham, you know, the comic

book fans, like, a lot of them anyway, are, like, really into that. So, you know, but you, that's the thing that's so hard to appreciate, right? Like, at 23, 24, 25, when you don't have anything else to define you, that defines you, right? In the eyes of the public. And it's hard, especially if you went to college like I did and you studied all these subjects and you, you know, your uncle's an acclaimed like playwright screenwriter. You have aspirations beyond being a teen. You never intended to be a teen idol. I was never the, I never went to University of Virginia acting class going, you know what? If I can just master this like scene in streetcar, then I will absolutely get, you know, the next teen heartthrob role on the Fox summer series, you know, the OC. And and yet it happens. And so you got to go, all right, great.

This is going to be a weird trip. It's going to be a weird ride. I'm going to look like George Michael for a minute. And then I'll get to if I work hard enough and if I get lucky enough and I kind of like just breathe, I can eventually do something else that will be a little bit more, you know, what I actually want to do. I would imagine Southland remains one of the most creative, fulfilling experiences of your life. And those that saw that show, it was probably a lesser audience than O.C., but the people that saw it. Oh, yeah, a lot less.

No, it was. It was. I'm not knocking either of them. I mean, I think that, and I think that you understand that as you get older, like, there's a trade-off and that's okay. Yeah. But yeah, it was. And the people that saw it acknowledge and loved it and were obsessed with it. And I learned that I didn't have to, like you come from, you know, sort of

acting classes and and doing theater, albeit, you know, off Broadway theater. And you go, suddenly you get thrown into, you know, teen soap, like the OC, and you're like, wait, is it possible to do that acting thing that I originally did, you know, just at, like, in college theater? Is it possible to do that on screen? Because I, right, these are pretty different. Yeah, yeah, you can do it. And you can have that same creative experience,

or similar creative experience. Not to knock, there was, there was interesting stuff to do in the O-C-2, even if it was a little melodramatic or whatever. And being able to, like, finally like join those two parts of your of your of your of your um psyche they're like they're like oh this is my public face and this is my private person and I can actually be proud of um both together and not have to you know do some weird right you know psychics splitting it was a was a very good experience is um and we alluded to a little bit sort of where your heads at like a you know knee deep in Gotham in season four and wanting to, you know,

whether produce or direct more, but like are you, do you feel like, you know, you have a very busy life. You have a very busy work life. You have a very busy family life right now. Are you strategic about sort of the future and sort of like thinking about the long haul in terms of like theater or film

or a different kind of TV that's not 22 damn episodes? Like, what, you know, are you, do you feel like you are in control of that? Because, you know, I have this conversation with actors a lot of times. Like people, I think everyone on the street kind of just assumes like, oh, you're making all these choices. There's some choice.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's some choice for the rare for the Tom Cruise out there. For sure. But 99% that are lucky enough to work, it's, it's... Yeah, I mean, look, it's both, right? But it is incumbent upon you, I've always believed, to create some of your own opportunities, and you have to...

Certainly that is true right now. I mean, the great news about the changing nature of, you know, how we consume content is that the way we produce it has changed or the way that we distribute it has changed. And that's just allowed so many different people to have so many new creative experiences. Like before, it's, you know, there were four or five channels and all that stuff had to go right through them. Yeah. And so they owned it. And they controlled exactly. And unless you were in with, you know, that's a little bit like the mafia, right? Like unless you're in with them, unless you're like, you know, somehow managed to squeak in,

then you're on the outside. Now, I mean, hundreds and hundreds of television shows being made in all different kinds of formats. I think there'll be 500 different series next year. I saw that number. Isn't that extraordinary? Where you must have, I don't know what the number is, but imagine, you know, four or five networks.

It must have been, I don't, yeah, I can't do the math. Quickly, 100. Exactly. Something in that realm. Yeah, 100, like, certainly it is more than doubled, if not troubled or even more in a very short amount of time, relatively speaking, like less than 20. And when we did the O.C. in 2003, I mean, there was cable, but that wasn't, I don't think

Michael Chichliss had won for the Shield yet. Right. And that was the big, like, big turning point. That was a big turning point for cable being recognized as like a platform where people could, and the sopranos and all that stuff. Anyway, yeah, that's what I'd like to, I think every, every, every, so many artists aspire to have some control over their career for life and, and still get paid. The inevitable, like, oh, you can control your artistic life, but no one wants to puppet show in a seat for ten. Right,

exactly. Biro Beach, you're like Bero Beach, you can go down to some theater down there, whatever you want. I think now more than ever, it's doable, but you got to do it, and you got to certainly get lucky, but you also got to create your own luck

and you've got to push forward, so that's certainly something that's on my mind a lot. Is there a kind of a thing, whether it's a specific project or like just like a different aspect of the career whether it's directing or producing or if it's doing comedy or something else that like that that kind of gnaws at you that that's really consuming your your brain a lot lately you know I'm I'm a I'm a I'm a I'm a real political junkie so I'm sort of interested in things that touch on either politics per se or sort of kind of you know kind of larger societal issues that that are possibly intractable, like kind of, you know, capitalism and the kind of the, the, um, oh, I'm going to meander. Anyway, I'm, I noticed because I was looking at your Twitter feed. And I only kind of like, I got, like, I feel like I keep saying, you know, after the election,

I became more weaponized. Like, you know, I was an Upper West Side liberal my entire life. But, like, suddenly after the election, my Twitter feed turned from, like, entertainment to politics, like on a dime. Totally. Like, you just had to speak up or, yeah. I mean. I, that's how, and that's, that's, um,

Always been a little bit, a little part of me, but it's certainly true now, because how can you not? I mean, if you have any perspective whatsoever, you can understand that we're living in an unusual time, and one must react to what's happening, I mean, on a basic level for survival in terms of our country, because it certainly has to stand for a few things, otherwise it stands for nothing. And if it stands for nothing, and I mean this not in a, I mean this not in a, you know, oh, America's, you can believe that America isn't, hasn't always been that much better than so many other countries, right? You don't have to fully subscribe to E. Pluribusunum to, to believe that we've lost our way and to believe that we should be different from, say, Kazakhstan, in ways that are meaningful to how we operate as a society.

Like we actually should believe, democracy should function on some rudimentary level in order for this thing to mean anything. And if it doesn't, then we're in real trouble. And so, you know, that's a really long way of winded way of saying that there are certain topics that interest me and certain things that I'd like to, you know, be involved with on a creative level that I think could, you know, I think as artists we're we're artists who are in like the sort of like where commerce hits art pretty full on you know or not like like Gotham has artistic merit for sure on some level but it's also for certainly a piece of commerce like obviously you know you've got massive corporations involved and and and and that's okay um but there's a part of you having been involved in things like that that wants to um do something more more, you know, more meaningful to you on a personal level that can be your contribution, however,

minute to, you know, the conversation that, the millions and billions of conversations that are happening, right. I would imagine some of that comes from age and also staring at a two-year-old. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I remember, yeah, yeah, that's right. I mean, I, you want your kids to, you want them to grow up in a world, in a, in a, in a, in a country and a world where America does mean something and not, um, and I'm very inspiring to, I mean, I'm sure a million people say this, but it's very inspiring to watch these, these, these younger people speaking out. And, and it's, it's bizarre to, to, to, to. to watch and incredibly sad and incredibly inspiring at the same time, the exact same moment, to see the maturity they possess that are our elected leaders of many different

elected leaders do not. It's a, it's a strange time, and it's a revolutionary time, and it should be. Ben, we're ending on hope, but this is good. We did it. We came full circle. There was some cynicism in there. A sprinkle along the way. But it's not about us. It's about the next generation. That's right, man. It's about the kids. Anyway, it's been a pleasure

to catch up with you today. Gotham, it's episode 9,000, 312th, that he's writing it on the wall. But it's a great show, and I'm happy that you're enjoying it and happy that you're getting to mix it up in different ways. Your second directing effort is airing this Thursday.

Correct, this Thursday. Check it out. And you're welcome here anytime, man. Thanks for stopping, bud. I appreciate it. And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't pressure to do this by Josh. I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the LA Times. And I'm Paul Shear, an actor, writer, and director. You might know me from The League, Veep, or my non-eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters. We love movies, and we come at them from different perspectives. Yeah, like, Amy thinks that, you know, Joe Pesci was miscast in Goodfellas, and I don't. He's too old.

Let's not forget that Paul thinks that Dude, too, is overrated. It is. Anyway, despite this, we come together to host unspooled. A Poole, a podcast where you talk about good movies, critical hits. Fan favorites, must-season, and in case you misdums. We're talking Parasite the Home Alone. From Greece to the Dark Night. We've done deep dives on popcorn flicks.

We've talked about why Independence Day deserves a second look. And we've talked about horror movies, some that you've never even heard of like Ganges and Hess. So if you love movies like we do, come along on our cinematic adventure. Listen to Unspooled wherever you get your podcast. And don't forget to hit the follow button. Thank you.