Happy Sad Confused - Ben Stiller

Episode Date: November 13, 2018

Ben Stiller makes his "Happy Sad Confused" debut to talk about directing the new limited series, "Escape at Dannemora", his various films from "The Cable Guy" to "Tropic Thunder" and his love of "Star Trek".   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Please play responsibly. Today on Happy Sad Confused, Ben Stiller goes dramatic with Escape at Danamora. Hey guys, I'm Josh Harrow. It's welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused, the man of the hour today. It's not me. It's not you. Let's put the focus where it should be. Mr. Ben Stiller is making his debut on Happy, Sad Confused today.

and I could not be more thrilled. People always ask me who haven't I had on, and I always draw a blank, and I never know. But come to think of it, Ben Stiller was one of the top people, frankly, that I've always wanted to have on the podcast. I know I appreciated and enjoyed the work of Ben Stiller, as we all do. But when I really dug into the research and went back and thought about it,

I realize his work, frankly, is a huge part of my love of film and comedy the last 20-plus years, even further back. The Ben Stiller Show, Zoolander, Tropic Thunder, the cable guy, so many great things. And those are just the films he directed, not to mention all the amazing work he's done in front of the camera. So this was a real great pleasure to have been on the podcast. He couldn't have been more open and honest and funny and smart and all the things you wanted to guess. So super proud of this conversation with the great actor and filmmaker, Mr. Ben Stiller. And as I said, the reason for him coming in is not a comedy. And certainly he's balanced dramatic work with comedy over his career, but he's never done it behind the camera.

His directing work has always been decidedly comedic, and that has changed with his newest project. It is called Escape at Danamora, and it is a seven-part miniseries on Showtime. It debuts November 18th. Check it out. I've watched the entire thing, and it is an arresting, fascinating true life tale. If you don't remember, if it doesn't ring a bell, back in 2015 in upstate New York, there was a prison break. This doesn't ruin anything. It helps to have a little bit of context, and it comes.

kind of is introduced in the opening moments of the series. Two inmates escaped, and they escaped with the help of someone working on the inside. And the three people we're talking about here are played by some of the best in the business. It's Benicio del Toro, Paul Dano, and Patricia Arquette. And special points to Ben Stiller for casting Patricia Arquette, reteaming after their previous work together on fording with disaster. I mean, come on. It doesn't get better than that.

exceptionally well acted, wonderfully atmospheric and well-paced. Stiller clearly has the chops as a director, but clearly can commit himself to dramas if he wants. Like if he wants to just totally commit to this for the rest of his career, he'd be, I think, one of our better dramatic directors, too. So what a jerk for being talented in all aspects of his career. But kudos to him on this new venture, Escape at Danimora. As I said, it's November 18th. The first of seven episodes that premiere on Showtime, definitely well worth checking out. Other than that, other things to mention, gosh, we've been very busy here at MTV. I've been doing a lot of interviews that are starting to pop up.

Did a great group chat with the Fantastic Beasts cast. That was awesome. Sat down with Benedict Cumberbatch, for The Grinch, sat down with Claire Foy, for her new film, The Girl in the Spider's Web. all of those interviews in different forums are popping up on MTV's social but if you want to just cut right to the chase I always put them out of my social media so go to Joshua Harowitz on Twitter or Instagram

and I'll tell you where to find them very proud of all those conversations also worth noting after hours continues to truck along with some of our favorite guests and we have a new one going up as I tape this I'm going to give you the exclusive I haven't told anybody this

Sam Hewin is coming back to after hours. We've taped a new crazy bit with the Star of Outlander. My muse, my friend, Sam Hewann kills it in this sketch. You're going to love it. I do.

The second of many sketches to come, hopefully with Sam Hewin. And yeah, another fantastic beast-see sketch coming up soon that we've already taped. Some things in the can, some things in the works. A lot of cool stuff on After Hours on Comedy Central. So check it out. Go follow After Hours' Facebook page. Just look up After Hours Comedy Central. You can't miss it. And you will not miss a thing. Anyway, back to the podcast. Remember to spread the good word of happy, say, confused. Review, rate and subscribe. Spread the good word to your friends and family this holiday season. It's the easiest gift available. It costs nothing. And as if I needed to incentivize you any further, I mean, just tell your friends, here's an exclusive 45-minute check. with the great Ben Stiller. I don't think he's done

on their podcasts. I don't think so. I haven't heard him do. Maybe, he probably did Marin. Maron always beats me, but it's a good company to be in. Anyway, enjoy this conversation with Ben Stiller and check out Escape at Danamora, November 18th on Showtime. I have Mr. Ben Stiller

in my office. Look at that. How are you? He just materialized that of nowhere. I know. I just appeared. Thanks, much. I teleported. Yeah, you have that magical. but also everybody's have that ability they didn't you know that's just certain ones uh congrats on the new uh limited series i guess we should say miniseries what do we even call this kind of thing nowadays i guess it's yeah i guess they call it a limited

series yeah back in my day it was a mini series right this is the north and south of uh of our times this is the i mean for me it was like yeah roots and shogun and i'll go to v let's go to oh the yeah yeah come on right um thornbirds right uh but congrats on this man it's a great piece of work I really enjoyed it. Did this feel like making four different movies? I mean, this is a lot of material to tackle. Yeah, it was, I mean, honestly, it's been a long process. It's been about two years working on it.

And it's been great, though. It was kind of, well, we shot it all the way you would shoot a movie. Right. Because we had to. You know, you just had to shoot everything in one location. We started in the summer and then ended in the winter. so we had to shoot everything at the end first kind of in terms of exteriors.

And so and then we shot everything in the tailor shop of the prison and then we shot everything in the cell block. So in that way it was kind of like making a movie that had a lot of material in it. Is there like one giant script? No, no, no, no. There were seven different scripts.

And that was important to me was to try to really have each episode. so to have a beginning, a middle, and an end, and, you know, be its own thing. But, and then be able to look at the whole thing overall when we were finished and make editorial choices based on looking at the whole thing together, too. It's funny, because I ran into Benicio, like, a few months back, and I was asking him about this. And even for him, I think it was like a new beast. It was like, it's a lot.

Like, it's a lot of material for an actor. And I think definitely, which I totally understand. I mean, I think that was who it was the top. toughest non-worthy with the actors because they had to jump in and out of different parts of the story. We tried to keep it, you know, as controlled as possible in terms of not going between different episodes too much, but we had to sometimes, especially as we got further down the line and all of our brilliant plans for how to do it and start to fall apart. That's late plans weekend.

Never mind, we've just got to get this done now, guys. No, yeah. I mean, it gets to that point, you know. but for the actors it was and also just to have to inhabit those characters and you know Richard Matt the guy at the Benizio plays is a pretty dark person so he had to live within that for a long time yeah you've got like I think the greatest special effect you have in the film is just like Benicio's face like it's just like you can just leave the camera on there and like yeah he's kind of let him do his thing yeah he's a really interesting interesting actor and I think

you know that's not by accident too i mean you know he's very very uh talented he's also very concerned i think about finding each moment uh and finding something to do in it that is um you know not the necessarily what you would expect but not also but was also motivated too he's not you know just trying to do something but he has this thought process which sometimes i would be let into. And then other times, I'd be like, oh, that's interesting. He did that. I had no idea he was going to do that. Right. That's really interesting. Like, you know, be like watching by the monitor, like, kind of like, wow. Yeah, yeah. That's Benicio de Tura. How does he do? What's he doing? Yeah. Did this, because this is, I mean, obviously, I think a lot of people

are going to cite this as a change of pace directing, from the directing side for you clearly. It's, it's unlike anything you've ever done. Seemingly. Yes. Yes. Yes. Were you surprised that you responded to this material? Like, was it just sort of like where you were at in life and career that like for whatever reason this was the thing that felt like early of two years of your life yeah i didn't i mean first of all i didn't know it was going to be two years um they had said that at the beginning i mean it was it was an interesting uh progression and it happened pretty organically and the way the timing of it is coming off of zoolander too i just like it was that i got the material the first material

that they wrote right i think it was just like right before the movie was coming out so Um, you know, I'd been in that for about a year or so. And, um, and, and then this thing was there and it was, I didn't, I was actually filming Zoolander in Italy when this whole thing happened. So I didn't really get the day by day, you know, CNN, um, uh, uh, info on it. And then, uh, and then when they sent me the scripts, I, I read the scripts and they were, they, they wrote two scripts and I thought they were really well written and interesting, but I didn't know how much of it was true or not. And that was what was holding me back at first. Because I didn't, it is different than anything I've done. It's not different than the kind of thing I wanted to do because

I've always been interested in directing different kinds of things. And as this progressed and became a reality, I realized, oh, I've never really done anything like this before. Though in my head, I've done it a lot. Sure. But it's also like you, I would imagine exercise. some different muscles. I mean, there are things in this that I don't think I've seen in any of your directing work, like in these, like, you know,

it's episode five. You begin with these, like, crazy, like, long shots, seemingly unbroken shots. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah, so, I mean, I feel like... Yeah, I mean, but the most freeing thing

was just not acting. Right. First time you haven't directed himself, right? Yeah, I mean, I, cable guy, and I did like a day. You have a key pivotal that I could quote I know in our times today that would... Yeah, but I mean, for the most part,

you know there was no no cameo in this one and um you could have played the same role wait i just this just occurred to me stand sweet yeah he could still be in prison he's up on uh level three he's been there for 20 years missed opportunities um that's funny you know not not not not being in it was was really freeing and uh i i i really enjoy enjoyed that part of it, for sure. So has it been, maybe this is a too strong award, but has there been a struggle to, like, kind of attach yourself to this kind of material as a director? Because I read, I was looking back, there was, like, talked to that film, The Current War

that went some, that eventually something else was going to do. Yeah. So had you been kind of, like, going up for things or pursuing things? And, like, obviously, you can get. I tried to convince Harvey Weinstein to let me do the current war. Yeah. Jesus. Here's the funny thing.

I mean, I just, we just debuted a, I did a sketch with Benedict for that. uh for that film that we've been sitting on for a year because we shot it right before yeah no i'm yet another casualty of harvey yeah no um no but yeah i mean like he he for whatever reason you know like i you know i had conversations about doing it and then i for whatever reason he he didn't want to do it i you know i um yeah it's not this kind of thing that you know i get a lot um or it just that's just the reality, I think, of show business, you know, that you do a certain thing and people come to you for that. And, you know, those are also based on the choices I've made over the years. And so I get that. It's not like, but it's, yeah, so then the material that

does come to me, or that it's either stuff I have to generate, which I've always done and had a production company for like 20 years. And, you know, that's really the best way to create stuff that you want to do. But the stuff that does come to me, sometimes it's not necessarily like I don't even know how this came through I don't know how many people they went through to get to me but they're definitely like you know I'm sure I wasn't the first person on the list but sometimes the stuff that gets to to me is interesting and like almost good but you know not quite good enough that I you know that to actually do it and or to figure out a way to make it good enough you know or it's too much work to do that and you know does this

widen the kind of or does this experience which sounds like it was grueling in the best and worst possible ways probably as all films are does it change sort of the stuff that you're looking at from a directing perspective or does it the experience of doing this make you want to do more like this or honestly yes

I really I really enjoyed it I really enjoyed not being in front of the camera and not having to edit myself you know it just was like that was one of the best parts we were just looking First of all, just working with these amazing actors,

I felt invigorated in that I kind of felt like I learned a lot about acting, watching them act and watching them do their thing and watching their, and not being, having to just jump back always or talk to an actor about a scene and figure out how we were doing it. And actors have always been incredibly generous with me as a director, because when you're in it, you have to just, It's sort of, everybody has to kind of jump on board, like, okay, we're doing this. It's a little bit awkward.

It's not really the most economical way to make a movie. And you have to just trust that. And then they help you. They really help you. And I really enjoyed not having to do that in this one and just be able to focus on them and watch them and watch, you know, and then also just the frame and all the things you want to do when you're acting and directing that you can't do because you can't be in two places at once. No matter how many times you direct yourself, there's just, must be, the layers of, like, ego you have to drop and kind of, like, get out of your own head, like, and in the middle of this crazy, tempestuous.

It's a head game. It's a crazy head game. It's one less thing to worry about. Yeah, I mean, it can be, you know, look, at times it's fun, and I've had a lot of fun over the years, but almost every project I've tried to figure out some way to either, literally on the first Zoolander, I tried to find somebody else to direct it. I had meetings with, I mean, I think I talked to Anne McKay at one point about directing it. You know, it was, I was trying to not do both, but then I also wanted to, I also ultimately wanted to direct it because I couldn't find any way that I, I guess felt, you know, got it the way that I wanted to do it. On the reverse side, did I read, maybe this is one of those IMDB things, did you want Keanu to play the Tug Speedman role in Tropic Thunder? Kianu and also Tom Cruise, I thought they both would have been amazing.

I mean, and I love the guys, but I also love those versions. Yeah, and, you know, yeah, so, I mean, that's always been, there's always been some sort of a process, and it always kind of came back around. Yeah. Well, you're available to yourself. Yes, I was available to myself. I could make the deal work. Exactly.

And I've enjoyed that. I mean, I've enjoyed it a lot. But this was such a different experience. And from the beginning, it just felt different. If you'll indulge me since we do have some time to go down memory lane and stuff. And I feel like, you know, to make it about myself for a second, I feel like I've always felt a strong kinship with you. Let's go down the line. Your mom grew up in Long Island.

My mom, Great Neck. Great neck, too. Oh, wow. My dad, Brooklyn, Midwood. I grew up on the Upper West Side. I presume were you an Upper West Sider? Yes. Okay, Upper West Sider.

Yeah, like the same reference points. I'm guessing. You know, I think there's probably Jewishness in you. It's slightly. Were you Bar Mitzvah? I was Bar Mitzvah. Okay, so you've got that over it. My sister wasn't, but my older sister wasn't, but I did.

I went for it. That was the last sort of, I mean, I'm not a, the last gasped Judaism for you. I am not an observant Jewish person, but, you know, but I am Jewish and my mother was Irish Catholic. Like she converted. She was the most Jewish of all of us. She kept the traditions alive as long as she could.

My dad, too. My dad would go to synagogue at least twice a year. Yeah. We're cultural Jews. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, look, you're always going to be, it's like, you know, if you're, you know, Jewish, if you're any ethnicity, you're going to be that to yourself and to other people. Yep. And you have to own that.

And, you know, so yes. Were you, so who were the, what was the first aspiration? Was it acting, directing, writing? I mean, you were obviously born into this business to a degree. What was the thing that, that when you sort of came of age, that you first became obsessed with? It was always, well, first it was, I don't know, it's hard to say because I grew up around my parents acting and doing nightclubs

and Broadway theater. My dad did a lot of Broadway shows. So the acting thing was, and the experience around it was always really interesting. But then around nine years old or so, I think I started to go to the movies, and these movies were so exciting to me. I'd go to the Lowe's 84th Street.

Yeah, that was mine. Back when it was the actual old, like, Lowe's theater. Right. Yeah. You don't remember that, though. No, I do. do. And I remember, it was Lose 83rd Street. Do you remember that? Yeah, Lose E3rd. And then somehow they just moved half a block down and became Lose 84th, as I recall. That's exactly

right. It was Lose 83rd Street because the actual building was built like at the turn of the century or something and it was a vaudeville theater or whatever. And then they started they started splitting it up. But I remember when it was just a single theater and then they split it up into two and then they went like across. I don't think I go back after. They made it to four. They started to, it started to be like you go up to the balcony and there was like a floor right in front of the balcony it was just so weird and then they finally just tore it down and built a big building there and made it into a whatever it is for some reason my memory of like when they reopened it as lose 84th is the first movie i ever saw there was that william cat dinosaur movie baby secret of the lost legend do you remember that it was like still like a like it was still like ray harryhausen esk even like in 85 they were still clinging on to some of those effects doesn't hold up i don't think doesn't yeah um probably not but i mean i love those ray harry housing movies i mean i I would watch those. Flash of the Titans, please.

Yeah, I loved all those movies and watching movies on, they had this movie at 4.30 in the afternoon. You're right. I think on ABC, W.ABC. And it was just, you know, movies in that era were just so great. And I remember going to Planet of the Apes. Yeah. I remember going to the Planet of the Apes Marathon at the Lowe's and, you know,

watching all of them together. And beside an adventure I was obsessed with. Were you, I know we also shared this. We've talked about this in the past Star Trek. yeah where you what was that so that was in repeats by the time like you were like yeah or nine it was probably on channel 11 right you're watching every night right every night yeah and I would watch it and over and over again and I mean it was just such a different experience watching television because you actually waited for something to come on

besides the fact you turned the channels on a knob and there were only a certain number of channels then when the cable boxes came that was a big thing do you find yourself telling these stories to your kids and having them their eyes glaze over or they they don't and glaze over, they just walk away. Wait, wait. It's literally like, I've become the old man telling these stories and they make fun of me. They really, they're like, oh, don't tell another one

of those stories. My son does impressions of me. It looks like, I don't know about you, but hearing from like my parents, like, about like when they would listen to like the shadow, like on the radio. I know. We become that. Totally. I've definitely become that. I mean, it's, um, yeah, because it was totally different. You'd wait for,

I don't know, it's like, you know, Like to see Wizard of Oz every April or whatever it was. It's part of what also I remember even like, I associate that with like S&L, why S&L felt so like edgy for me as a kid was like I had to stay up. And this is like way past my bedtime and I'm like. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And I don't know, it's on DVR every week. No, no, I watch the whenever I feel like it.

It's totally changed. But yeah, but going to the movies was really something that I loved doing. And I think that that made me want to be a director from the age of like nine. Right. So how strong was the Trek thing? Did you go to conventions? Did you ever do those? I did go to a convention or two.

My mother took me to a convention. And then she had this sort of like peripheral connection because she was an actress. And they, you know, I mean, my mother took me to some, I remember she took me to a Bob and Doug McKenzie record signing around, I don't know if it was when they did Strange Brewer, where they had their album, the Great White North album. And like we stood online at Sam Goody Records on 6th Avenue

for like an hour. I remember it's so well, like, and it got to us there, and I, you know, I had my record, and Rick Moranus, like, looked up at my mother. It's like, what are you doing here? Why is Anne Mera here? She's like, I'm with my son.

That's a fan. That's adorable. Yeah. So, okay, I can't obviously come up. But, yeah, but I did go to, and then she took me to a Star Trek convention, too, or two. How would you never appeared

or had any actual official relation to a Star Trek film. I've never been... I mean, I'm kind of glad maybe that I've never been asked because I don't want to be the guy showing up, you know, as a security guard.

I remember Christian Slater did that. Star Trek 6. He shows up to help... I know. And I'm sure he's happy he did it, but I just, I don't know. In retrospect, if I, like, want to see myself

in the Klingon makeup actually in... I don't... You know, and I love the original series, so there's never going to be any going back to that. I don't think I even probably would have shown up know, like any of the other shows.

You could direct someone. You could direct the... I would be happy to. If somebody approached me, I would be open to it for sure. I mean, but, you know, the Star Trek movies, I think the J.J. Abrams did a great reboot on them. Totally. I was really excited to see that first one. Oh, it was an amazing film.

Yeah. That opening sequence is still one of the best, like, yeah, it's great. Yeah, very emotional. Right off the bat, you're like, oh, my God, what's happening? I know. And he, you know, he somehow, like, found these actors that embodied the spirit without doing impressions

and it was, you know, it was just like, I think it's a great movie. I agree. I think, yeah, his not-so-secretchenous is casting. I mean, you look at what he did in Star Wars, too, just find like Daisy Ridley out of nowhere and, like, she can carry those, that's crazy. And, you know, like, having, like, a respect

for the original material, but then also feeling free to go off and, like, putting the Beastie Boys and that song was, you know, the song in the beginning, it's so cool. So, okay, so jumping around a bit. I'm fascinated by one of your early acting gigs, Empire of the Sun.

That must have been pretty head-trippy for you as a young man. It was incredible. It was incredible. I mean, it's one of the best experiences I ever had on a movie. This is obviously Spielberg. This is an underrated Spielberg in my video. Yeah, I think it's a good movie. I haven't watched it for a long, long time, but it was an amazing experience.

First of all, because Stephen Spielberg was my idol. Sure. And I was doing a play in New York. I had a small part in this play that was on Broadway. and it was a big success, The House Blue Leaves. And everybody came to see that play, and Stephen Spielberg came to it. And he asked me to have a meeting with him to be,

I mean, I still get excited. I still get excited. I still get excited thinking about it, because, yeah, he asked me to come to Amblin and have a meeting with him about being in Empire of the Sun, and I had a meeting with him in his office. And I read the book before I went in, and it was his character Dainty in the book

who was like one of the American POWs. And I sat in there, and he's like, yeah, so I think, you know, I think it'd be good. And, you know, we're going to go to Spain and shoot this prisoner of war camp in Spain. We're going to China and London, but your part would be in Spain. I'm like, okay, fine. I can do that. I can do that. I can do that.

Let me check my calendar. And then I'm walking out. I was, oh, oh, you know, you're supposed to be a prisoner of wars. If you could lose a little weight. Check. I'm like, of course, whatever you need. and then I was like waiting for the audition to happen or whatever and I got a call from my agent like that's it you're in the movie and I said what you're in the movie no audition it's like no no he saw you in the play and he thought you'd be great for it and that that blew my mind that he was hiring me I mean I had like two lines but he was still yeah like showing this confidence like yeah I think you're good and you can do it because and which was good because I would have killed the audition right in the wrong loss it definitely yeah not killed yeah I killed myself.

But, and then I went and lost 27 pounds and showed up on set, the first day of shooting. This is what Christian Bell adopted in future films. I think I inspired him. I'm going to pull him. He was actually six foot three, you know, he cut his legs. Right. He's so dedicated. No.

And I showed up, he looked at me, he said, are you okay? I'm like, you said to Liz Wade? I haven't eaten since our meat. meeting, Stephen. He's like, yeah, but I mean, come on. It was pretty funny. And then we were there for 10 weeks, and over the course of the 10 weeks, they had flown this incredible craft service from England that was, like, on the set every day.

And they would call us to set every day because he didn't know which way he was going to put the camera. So we were always on standby in case we were going to be in a scene, which was great because you got to watch him direct the movie. And then by the end of the 10 weeks, you know, hanging out of the craft service table, everybody was back to normal weight. And he had to reshoot some scenes so you can go back and watch the movie, like, certain scenes. Some of the POWs are a little bit healthier than they were. And on the cream puff tray during.

But it was, yeah, that was an amazing experience, though, just to watch him work. And just also, like, sort of the pre-digital effects were. old how he did that Mustangray. Yeah, hundreds of extras. Hundreds of extras. And also old school effects like for the planes that were parked on the runway, they were like

literally cardboard cut out, two-dimensional planes that were down in the distance and things like that. And then when they flew the P-51s and they also had some model airplanes too, which was cool. And then they had real P-51 that they flew in from Seville

which was about an hour from where the set was. And it was so exciting because they'd have to fly in from an hour out and they'd be like 30 minutes out. Okay, let's get ready. You know, 20 minutes out, 10 minutes out here. You're on the clock. Yeah. And it was just real. It had like it was a, you know, a real feeling.

And now, it seems like that would, you know, most of the time would be done digitally and just never have that experience. The, um, okay, so again, jumping around a little randomly. But somewhat sequentially, one of the, your big breaks was actually, I realized I had my color of money post. I know. I saw that was the first thing I saw. That is not here just for you. I assure you, it's always here. But you, of course, did a parody of that with John Mahoney.

Yes. When I was doing that play House of Blue Leaves. Okay. Right. So were you making a bunch of things like that? Like, that was the one that kind of got you some attention, right? Yeah. That led to some S&L work.

That was, yeah, that was the first real sort of sketch, I guess, I ever did. And it was, I was doing that play. And I had this idea to do a takeoff on that movie. and with a friend of mine named Ralph Howard and a guy named Steve Clayman and we came up with this little script and we didn't even know who was going to do the Tom Cruise impression because like Steve did a funny Tom Cruise also

and then I was like I think I could try to come up with something and then I just got everybody from the play John Mahoney and Julie Haggerty and my mother and my grandfather I was watching it last night I was like where was Julie Hatton? Are you watching it last night? Where did you get Julie Haggerty for?

I'm like, she was in the play. That makes sense. She was in the play. So, like, yeah, even my grandfather's in it and my girlfriend at the time. So it was just, it was sort of like a, and I was working for this documentary filmmaker who lived in my building. I used to do PA work for him. Right.

And he lent me the equipment and let us use his editing equipment in his editing room. So because we shot it on 16mm. And again, pre-digital editing. Sure. So it was, I took all the money I was making in the play, which, was not a lot of money, and I put it into making the short. And then we had this short, and we didn't have anywhere to show it, again, because there was no YouTube.

If it only had been, you know, 15 years later. It hardened you, though, Ben, and made you who you are. So you had to take your, like, hand of film around, literally, you know, it's pretty crazy. Or, like, your video cassette. I had a three-quarter inch in a VHS. And John Lovitz had come to see. the play, and I called up John Lovitz, and I said, hey, because he was on S&O, I said,

hey, do you think you could maybe try to, I made this short, maybe do you think you could get it up to them to look at? And he literally, like, said, meet me in the lobby of 30 Rock, and I went and I met him, and I gave him the cassette, which was like, what a great thing to do. You know, he actually did that. I didn't know him at all, hardly. And then I got a call like the next day that they were going to put it on, that was like a Thursday, and I think like a Friday you got a call like they want to put it on the show on Saturday and they'd never done that before

they'd never put a short on that didn't have anybody from the cast in it there must have been a head trip for a variety of reasons not the least of which is like that's like you're in the realm then of like Albert Brooks who I'm sure was like you know who did all those shorts and wasn't an idolat like that's what I wanted to do that was my dream was to be

Albert Brooks and and yeah that was it was and they called me and they said hey can you cut like two minutes out of it and so like went into the editing bay is there and then just sat in the green room. I remember when it was on and watched it, and the audience kind of laughed, but they were kind of like bewildered.

But it was really Jim Downey, who was the head writer, who was the guy who said, yeah, you know, this is funny. That's amazing. So in the early days of your career, like even I'm thinking like pre-Benz-Stiller's show, pre-kind of reality bites, like the acting career. Like, was the acting career feeling like it was going somewhere

where you struggling to kind of get, I mean, we talked about Empire of the Summer, But, like, it seems like, to me, looking back, it took you kind of like the Ben Stiller show and then putting yourself in reality bites to actually sort of start to kind of make some headway on the acting front. Yeah. It was a strange sort of balance. I was doing my own things like that, like making those shorts, and then I would get a part in a play. And then I would get, you know, a small part in a movie. I remember when I got on S&L, which I was brought on.

as a writer and I did want to be Albert Brooks and they didn't really need anybody making short films at that time. I had this opportunity to do, I did a little part in this movie Stella with Bet Midler. And I had to, I had previous commitment and I had to go and do that for a week, which was like, you know, if you're on SNL, you don't go like, hey, I got to go

do a role in the movie, I'll see you later with somebody who's an apprentice writer. Which I totally, you know, I get that. So I was sort of like, you know, one foot out the door anyway trying to figure out what I was doing. and then made a commitment because then I also had this opportunity to do this MTV show

called It's Your Hour which was the precursor to the Ben Stiller show on MTV which was they give an hour to somebody they thought was worthy to do whatever they wanted to do and not big budgets and Jeff Kahn who was my writing partner and friend and roommate at the time and I did a we started doing this little act together

where like I do like a Bono impression and he'd do Bob Dylan and you know we'd kind of put together it's like it's the closest thing to stand-up comedy that ever did and it wasn't stand-up comedy it was like sort of semi-sketch comedy at we do it at the china club in New York because I think he had a friend there who let us go on and somebody saw that and said hey do you want to do this it's your hour thing if you show half of the show is videos and then the rest you can do our little sketches yeah so we did that and then they said oh you know we're doing more programming do you want to host a show where you do sketches and as long as you show half of its video as long as you lose 27 pounds

exactly right so i lost 27 pounds and um no i um you know i i we also had to have the videos somehow work into the sketches which was the challenge not really the best way to engineer a sketch show right the theme yeah here's the guns and roses song exactly yeah um i mean so we really did have some funny, weird stretches of ways to, like, incorporate like, sting video into our theme. And then, and then one episode we did was

a take off on Fox TV shows. And then Fox saw that and they said, hey, do you want to develop a show maybe for us, a sketch comedy show? So at that point, I started to, I was getting these little, little parts in movies, but I stopped doing that so that I could focus on that.

And then when we started working on this Fox show, it took like two years to get to the point when we got the pilot even made and so everything sort of fell away and I was just focusing on that trying to get that done and then that's how the Ben Stiller show

and Fox happened eventually so like it was kind of like I had to focus on that stuff and give up doing I don't know if I would have had a more successful career as an actor in movies up to that point I was getting little parts here and there

And then, but it's, it's, it's, that odd trajectory kind of has enabled you to have kind of these crazy dual, triple, quadruple paths as a, yeah, yeah, it's been a little bit, it's been a little bit crazy though because I, you know, I think back on it, like it was sort of, I was going one way

for a second, and then, like, when reality bites happened, I was sort of, yeah, I was like sort of, you know, putting, putting myself in there because Helen Childress and I started developing the script and we started improvising scenes together and she was like, you should be in this, you should do it. I'm like, oh, that'd be fun.

I am an actor. And they were supportive of it, Danny DeVito and, you know, and Michael Schaumburg. And they were, you know, so they gave me that opportunity. But, you know, it was really I was directing that movie. That was more, and so after that, it was kind of like, you know, it was whatever, you know, opportunities were happening were based on as a director sometimes sometimes as an actor but right

then I went to did cable guy after that so I do want to talk about cable guy and a few of the directing efforts for my money cable guy really opened up my career as an actor after the movie came out I love the cable guy whatever heat I was getting as a director so let's then try acting

I'm one of those that worships the cable guy for my money honestly not to you know make your head explode but like Cable Guy, Tropic Thunder, Zoolander, I would argue, are three of the greatest comedies of the last 30 years. Like, they're genius. Well, thank you. So Cable Guy obviously. I don't know if a lot of critics would agree with you.

Well, I think people have come around to Cable Guy. Some people definitely, I mean, look, it definitely lives on for that group of people that really love it. So, I mean, and I remember all this because I was like a big film geek even back then. It got the albatross of like the Jim Carrey narrative. Like, he got the huge payday for that. That's right. And it was... Yeah, they announced it.

They announced it before the movie came out. Right. And it was clearly darker and weirder than people maybe were expecting. I mean, was it what the studio expect? Did the studio sign on to make the film you made, do you think? You know, I don't think so. It's 20 years. You can say...

No, no. I mean, honestly, what I think was happening, it was like a dysfunctional relationship. You know, like a dysfunctional relationship between two people. where that you know things are going on that aren't quite right but you don't want to deal with them. Right. Because you also need each other, right? I've never really used this analogy for this movie, but I'm coming up with it. I like it.

But it's that kind of thing where you choose to ignore the things that might be a problem. Got it. I think Mark Canton wanted Jim to do a movie, and he gave, I mean, to his credit, he gave us free reign to do whatever we want to do. I don't know if he was looking as closely as maybe he should have in terms of somebody who was going to marketed as a studio summer release. And also, you know, even though it's what, it was 1996, you know, things have changed a lot since then. I think it's a much more, a less sophisticated time in terms of how people really look at

movies coming out in the summer or like the, you know, in terms of what the actual expectations were, it was like Jim Carrey doing a comedy, Chris Farley had been attached before, you know, it's kind of, quote, unquote, a dark comedy. but, you know, we also then didn't have anybody telling us what to do, and we didn't have any concern because we were kind of kids and not really that mature, didn't care about what we were putting out there. Right. You were just doing what you thought was funny.

Exactly. So, like, you know, maybe if we'd had a little bit more concern about what would actually be successful, you know what I mean, for the studio, which, you know, you could argue as somebody, you know, who does this, like, you go, well, I want to put out a movie. that's going to be successful. Sure. But we didn't really think about that. We just thought about, oh, this would be funny.

And, you know, Judd brought it to me, and Judd Apatow, and, you know, Jim and him had a idea for it. So I was really just brought on as a director for hire, and I was really excited about it because I loved Jim, and Jud and I, you know, were friends and to work together. So Jim had the ability to do whatever he wanted to do. Right. And he put total trust in Judd and myself. And we had an amazingly fun time making the movie.

And to Jim's credit, he's always stood behind the movie. Like he's never once backed away from him because that's Jim. And I think he enjoys the fact that it was just met with just outrage at the time. You know, because he was like, yeah, I can do what I want to do. And that's what's great is that he decided to take a chance and when he could do whatever he wanted to do that movie. I mean, but people were not, you know, thrilled when it came out. I mean, I remember, you know, I remember it. Remember the dark times?

I do. I mean, I remember sitting at, you know, the Chinese theater, man's Chinese theater at the premiere and the lights coming up. And I remember the vibe in that room. Let's skip the after-party guys. Is it true that Terence Malik is a huge fan? of Zoolander? I hear that. He's never told me personally. And, you know, I've starred in so many of Terrick's movies. Yeah, no. I have heard that from, actually, I've heard that from a lot of people,

so I believe it is true. But I've never talked to Terrence about it. But apparently he likes Zoolander a lot. That's fascinating. Yeah. I don't, it doesn't, I did, I think I did something for him about 10 years ago, like a birthday greeting or something. something as Derek just his assistant or somebody asked for it but are you available for that like is there a price to put a hotline people can call for the zoolander birthday greetings check with me in a couple years we'll see what is there obviously zoolander 2 didn't get the the reaction probably you wanted no fair to say i mean i'm trying to be dramatic you can be you can be real about it no it was it was a very it was a tough one that was a tough one yeah oh my god were you shocked by like

I was shocked by. I mean, look, it's, yes. Like, I would harken back to Cable Guy, really, in terms of the experience of it. I confess, I haven't seen it since I saw it one time. I haven't gone back. So I'd be curious to see how it plays now removed from, like, wherever it was in the culture at the moment. I don't know, man. I'm, it's really, it's hard to deal with something like that. Yeah. Because you're not expecting it. I mean, the thing that really shook me the most probably was like my attitude. And it wasn't, you know, I don't have anything to like blame on, blame it on or I haven't gone back and looked at it.

But I put everything into it when I was making it. But that's the thing that really was sort of like shook me the most was just the like, wait a minute. Like, I thought that was funny. Yeah. You know, that's what's really the thing that... Have I lost my... Yeah, sure. And, you know, and I don't delve into reviews.

It's impossible not to be aware of them because... But I've made a choice actually after, from Zoolander 1 on, have never read reviews. But I, you people tell you and you go, that guy said that or this guy said that. Or you should take a look at this, but I wouldn't even look... Well, sometimes I look at like a little something. And sometimes you look at the little something that's mean or a little something that's good. but either way it's you know if you put too much in it you can't it's i find it hard to of course because you're you're just thinking about that on either side so but knowing what was

you know the way it was received yeah it was really it was it was like shit is this like do i i thought that was funny because i thought we were taking the same chances but also you know look it's 17 or 18 years later so you know there's i i didn't had no idea though you know that that was coming with it. Well, it's kind of a mind fuck because, I mean, I remember even interviewing you at junkets and stuff over the years, everybody, and including me and everybody, I'm sure what's asking you every day. When's Zoolander? So it's like, here it is. And I like it. Wait, what happened? What the fuck is it's like, what? But you said you, but what? Oh my God. I'm going to make a prison drama. You brought this on yourselves, people. He went to prison for you. You don't think this is

funny. What do you see this? Is there anything else you want to do with that character of Zoolander at this point? Is it too soon since Zoolander did think about that? God, no. Yeah, no, no. Sorry, everybody had their chance. You abounded me. I do, I do, like, people ask me to do, you know, blue steel, whatever,

and I'm happy to do it for pictures, usually. You know, who's a fan of the movie? Mark Jacobs, who's in the movie. I ran into Mark Jacobs the other night. I don't see him. a lot. And God bless him, he was telling me how much he loved, you know, this scene or that's him. I'm like, you're the best

work. I love you. Um, but, uh, yeah, no, no, I don't think so. I mean, I feel like that was, right. That was it. Okay. Okay. You know, um, but yeah, no, those those, you know, those, it reminded me of the, the cable guy experience, obviously, because I remember, you know, when I did read reviews,

I guess I did read reviews after, no, because the cable guy was forced you like. So that's why I stopped reading reviews. now I remember. I remember opening up the New York Times review of Cable Guy, and it being like the first, it's saying the first disaster movie the summer just open, and it's, you know, starring Jim Carrey. Oh, it's a great. It's a great opening line.

Let's talk that about happier things, because I feel most people can agree that Tropic Thunder holds up and is a pretty amazing work of genius from you and Justin, et cetera. I don't know, though. I don't know. Well, there's a lot to talk about, obviously, that comes up a lot. it came up recently, right? Yes, the simple Jack. The Simple Jack thing.

The Simple Jack thing, yeah. It does feel like a movie that, I mean, you tell me, it can't be. That couldn't have been made, couldn't be made today for a variety of reasons. I definitely feel it couldn't have been made today, for sure. Right. I mean, the atmosphere is just too politically correct. Yeah. I mean, even back then, it was a little bit dicey.

Yeah. And, and I think we just would have been overthinking it now, you know? Which, I mean, I don't even know what to say, but, I mean, like, because, seriously, Doughty's performance as Kirk is one of the all-time greats. It's amazing. It's like ledger joker for me. It's like that kind of like immersion in a character that is just so next level. While we were making it, I would watch it every day and go like, this is just like the funniest thing and most insane, amazing performance I've ever seen.

And he was channeling it from somewhere. And I was like, fuck, this guy is just, this is crazy. It made me laugh so much. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I did, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, you know, this is an actor, white, who's, you know, essentially, you know, putting on blackface for this movie. And I, you know, when we, when we were casting the movie, I thought, okay, there's only a few actors that I think would have the credibility to be able to do that and people would give them the benefit of the doubt and understand what they were doing. Yeah. And so, like, three actors I thought at that time could do it. Did you go to Daniel Day Lewis? Did you ask? He probably would have been actually I wasn't

I think actually he might have even thought of that Because in a certain way That's the kind of thing you're having a little fun with Definitely the whole shoe cobbling crazy Yeah sure I mean it was like any actor And Daniel DeLews is like the most brilliant actor ever And I think other actors We watch actors like that

And we're just like oh my God How do they do that And wait you really can be a cobbler You really can do that You know he but he really does that and you know he was Abraham Lincoln for six months apparently he was right like apparently

he was literally the president and you know that's how you get these great performances and everybody has their way to it and so but you know that's what the movie was about was the humor of actors making fun of themselves and the actor who wants to be like that actor and all of that so yeah I mean

I thought there were a few actors who could do that and then when we made the movie and when when Downey took the role he said we're either going to go to hell or I'm going to win an Oscar for what he said to me and he got nominated there you go um and when the movie was finished I screened it for the NAACP yeah you know because I was like all right you guys tell me right you know this is the intention and you know we had a good conversation about it and it didn't end up being an issue and then um and simple jack became the thing simple jack became the thing and look I have

you know I have conflicting feelings about it because I feel like the intention behind that character was to, you know, to make fun of actors who want to be taken seriously and will do anything to be taken seriously. But, you know, look, my daughter hasn't seen the movie, but when I explain it to her, like, her mouth just, like, drops open. She looks to me like, what is wrong with you? And I get it, because she's, you know, she's, you know, it's interesting how as you get older, you go, like, you become that person.

And yeah, I am from a different time. But, and words do matter. And like I said, maybe today I wouldn't have had the guts to do that, right now. But at the time, I stand by it because I think the intention is, and I also made the apology. I made the apology to the Special Olympics people. But, and they boycotted the film when it came out, which we did, you know, it was like, all right, which we. is their right to do. But it was, you know, for me, it was very clear the intent,

which is like, we're making fun of people who take themselves too seriously, and actors who want to be taken seriously and will co-op to any group to do that. I do want to mention one other things in regards to that film, which is your use of Tom Cruise, which again, you know, I guess the first association was that great sketch you did for Mission Impossible, right?

Right, right. a stunt double. What's he like just to work with as like a comedic performer? Like he's, we all know how committed he is, how serious he is about the work. Is he, does he have a sense of humor about? Is he self-aware of like what he means to people and what's funny or not funny about his image? Did you find that difficult to?

I think he does. I think he, you know, I don't know Tom that well, but I really, really like him. He's, I think anybody who ever meets Tom or works with Tom has most incredibly warm feeling about him because he's a very, very genuine guy. Right. I don't know, you know, about his personal life and, you know, his, you know, that aspect of his commitment to Scientology and all that. But as a person, I've never had anything but good experiences with him, and he's a, he's

a genius when it comes to making movies. You know, he's a, he's a film geek. He's a, you know, he has so much. input on every movie he's ever made and the choices when you look at his career oh yeah you know you realize the choices he made along the way are just amazing oh i always cite him all the time for the young actors if you look at his first like 10 15 years of you just look at the filmmakers he went with cindipollick and scorsese and it was just that was that was purely his choice to go to work with those guys um so i think he had an instinct about tropic thunder um that he had a that he

he saw there was a chance to, you know, do something funny and to be funny and to have fun. I mean, even doing the MTV sketch, you know, to have to sit there with a guy and be doing an impression of him across from, you know, like, it's like, I don't know how I would do with that. At a certain point, I'd be like, all right, enough, you know. And he just, he embraced it. And the experience of working with him on it was he said to me, you know, just tell me, tell me what should I do. Tell me what you want. What's going to help make this work? You know, he's funny.

The guy is funny. Like, he's funny in his movies. You see him in The Edge of Tomorrow. He's really funny. You know, in Jerry McGuire. You know, he's really, you know, he's funny in the new mission of possible. I thought he was great in that.

Yeah, yeah. That scene where he, like, bust through the office when he's running across him. And he's just like, look, I mean, he's, like, iconic in that kind of humor that he has, you know? And it's, I don't know. He was just very open to the, process and willing to do whatever and then took it very very seriously is there a script

whether because i think back i remember you guys were going to do that film that still hasn't been made hardy men i remember way back when was talked about and and there was the west grossman spin-off kind of thing that was talked about is there a script whether it's for play the father in the hardy i was going to say the age you at 50 million dollars to budget um is there a script at this point whether it's for tom or anyone that that that you're sitting on that you're dying to get made as a director as a filmmaker? There's a project I've always wanted

to make for 20 years, which is Civil Warland of Bad Decline, which is the George Saunders short story. And George and I have over the years written scripts of it, movie scripts, TV treatments. Right now, there's a TV version. But I don't know. I don't know if it'll ever. It's just his writing style is so unique. And I mean, people have tried to make, I think they tried to do the Seahoke, which was a story of his as a series, a pilot that didn't get picked up.

Because just his writing, his language is so specific that it's hard sometimes to translate. Right. But he's just got this amazing, dark and yet funny tone. But there's a couple of scripts that are interested in doing, but nothing like that that I've had for years and years and years. Right. Yeah. We just got the tip of the iceberg. There's so much more to talk about, but I know you've got more love to spread about this wonderful escape at Danamora on Showtime, November 18th. Do I have that right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, we've got to get the plugs in in the right way. You're welcome here anytime to talk about Star Trek, to talk about your movies, anything you want. Thanks for stopping by, though. Yeah, it's great talking about. Thanks for your time. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad. confused. Remember to review, rate and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your

podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't pressure to do this by Josh. Lost podcast, the ultimate movie podcast, and we are ecstatic to break down late summer and early fall releases. We have Leonardo DiCaprio leading a revolution in one battle after another, Timothy Salome playing power ping pong and Marty Supreme. Let's not forget Emma Stone and Jorgos Lanthamos' Bougonia. Dwayne Johnson, he's coming for that Oscar in The Smashing Machine, Spike Lee and Denzel teaming up again, plus Daniel DeLuis' return from retirement.

There will be plenty of blockbusters to chat about, too. looks exceptional, plus Mortal Kombat 2, and Edgar writes the running man starring Glenn Powell. Search for Raiders of the Lost podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube.