Happy Sad Confused - Bill Pullman

Episode Date: September 19, 2018

Bill Pullman may have been something of a late bloomer, never setting foot on a film set until his early 30s, but once his career was launched, there was no looking back. To look back at his career is to look at some of the great film highs of the 80s and 90s. And that's just what Bill and Josh do on this episode, going all the way back to "Ruthless People" and "Spaceballs" through his "nice guy who doesn't get the girl" period of work to his biggest hits like "While You Were Sleeping" and "Independence Day".  These days Bill is finding rich rewards in theater (he's set to star with Sally Field in Arthur Miller's "All My Sons" next year at the Old Vic) and television with the acclaimed series, "The Sinner", now concluding its second season on USA. You'd be hard pressed to find a nicer guy than Bill Pullman. Sit back and enjoy! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

D.C. high volume, Batman. The Dark Nights definitive DC comic stories adapted directly for audio for the very first time. Fear, I have to make them afraid. He's got a motorcycle. Get after him or have you shot. What do you mean blow up the building? From this moment on,

none of you are safe. New episodes every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts. Today on Happy Said Confused Bill Pullman from Independence Day and while you were sleeping to the sinner. Hey guys, I'm Josh Harrowitz. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad Confused. I'm back from the Toronto Film Festival. Feels since the last week's episode.

You know I was knee deep in lots of movies. 20 in all, by my count. I think it was 20. I might have seen more or less. I don't know. My brain was mush by the end of my nine days in Toronto. But I'm very pleased to be back in the home office, in my strange little office, doing my extended conversations with the likes of Bill Pullman. This feels right.

Bill Pullman is the guest on today's episode of Happy Say Confused. And what a pleasure. What a distinct pleasure. Who is in a fan of Bill Pullman? for as long as I can remember, I've loved his work. From his film debut in Ruthless People to Spaceballs, to Independence Day, and while you were sleeping, through Lost Highway with David Lynch,

all the way up to and including this great series that he's on right now, which I just discovered, actually. I mean, I'd heard about it because it got some Emmy love for Jessica Beal in the first season. The show is called The Sinner. It is on USA. As you listen to this, if you're listening to this, on Tuesday or Wednesday.

The finale airs tonight on Wednesday. If not, you can go back and listen to, or rather, watch the whole season, I'm sure, on demand, et cetera. I did it that way, actually. I watched the seven episodes of season two in the span of, I think, two or three days, and it's great. It stars...

The only continuity between the first and second season, really, is Bill Pullman's character, a detective who, in season two, kind of returns to his hometown to investigate a double homicide, seemingly perpetrated by a child. And that's kind of where I'll leave it off. It's the less said the better, but it stars Pullman as this kind of quirky odd detective with some demons and eccentricities, but also stars the likes of Carrie Coon and Tracy

Letts. It's a great ensemble, and it's really well done. So I definitely recommend checking out the sinner if that sounds like it's your bag. And this was a delight of a conversation. Bill is, you know, kind of an actor's actor in a way. Like, you know, you associate him with the kind of mainstream, I think, a lot of romantic comedies back in the 90s and late 80s. But this is a guy that's always been heavily invested in the theater. And if you look at the resume, has actually really, like, accomplished a great deal and a great diversity of work.

And is in a cool place right now where he's doing great work on. on television, but also he's about to go do Arthur Miller play at the old Vic in London next year. He's in Adam McKay's new movie, which we talk about. Which I should mention, it's called Vice. We talk about towards the end and for context. If you don't know about this movie, you're going to hear about it

very soon. It tells, it's about Dick Cheney, basically, hence the title, Vice, and it stars Christian Bale as the title character and has Sam Rockwell and Steve Carrell in this crazy cast, and it includes Bill Pullman. So anyway, that's the main conversation on today's episode, and I think you'll enjoy it if you love Bill Pullman half as much as I do. I think you'll get a kick out of it.

He is, as you would expect, super affable, super smart, super cool. As for Toronto Film Festival shenanigans, just to mention it because I did see so many films there. And I'm happy to say, by and large, really good movies. I was seeing, like, I don't know, between two and four. movies a day and that that's that's a lot especially after like a week and a half uh you know of solid work but um i was heartened by the fact that for the most part it was uh it was really good stuff i certainly saw a bunch of the big fall movies that are hitting soon um widows is great

starting by owa davis first man with uh ryan gosling and claire foy um uh roma directed by afonzo Corone is fantastic, maybe my favorite film I've seen this year, possibly. Also, Can You Ever Forgive Me, which may or may not be on your radar yet, is directed, I believe, by Mario Heller, who did Diary of a Teenage Girl, and it is her follow-up, and it stars Melissa McCarthy and Richard E. Grant and tells a story of a woman who forged literary letters, you know, by luminaries. And it's a real kind of, like, great character piece. about New Yorkers kind of on the fringes. Definitely appealed to, like, my, I don't know,

my love of New York and also just of quirky characters. That's one to watch. Melissa McCarthy is fantastic and more of a dramatic role than you're used to seeing her in. And Richard E. Grant, who has always been fantastic, finally kind of gets a plumb of a role after, I feel like it's been a while since we've seen Richard E. Grant in a great role, and hopefully he's going to get some awards buzz for that.

So those are some top line items for you. Some movies look out for Roma, first man, widows, can you ever forgive me, and a whole lot more to come. A lot of the films I saw also don't have distribution yet, so you'll see those films down the road. If you want to see any of my conversations with interviews, rather interviews with the likes of, oh my God, who did we talk to? We talked to the entire widow's cast. We talked to my soulmate Michael Shannon. We talked to Alexander Scarsguard and Jamie Dornan. All of those interviews are on a MTV News's YouTube page. So go check those out. A lot of fun. And of course, if you listen to last week's podcast, you listen to two of the conversations with Elizabeth Moss and Timothy Shalame. So an embarrassment of riches for you guys. If you couldn't make it to the Toronto Film Festival, you at least get to see some cool conversations and hear some amazing filmmakers and actors talk about it. So yes, that's Toronto and today's event, as I said, Bill Pullman. Before I throw to that. A reminder. Review. Rate and subscribe to Happy Say I Confuse. Spread the good word.

Lots of cool conversations coming up. If you love the show, keep listening and tell your friends. Don't be a hug. You know, like, share it with your friends. Let other people enjoy the conversations, too. Come on. Here he is, the one and only, Mr. Bill Pullman. and welcome. Let me say that again. I'm very pleased to welcome Bill Pullman to my strange little office in on a rainy day in New York. Well, I like what you said to be welcome. So I need to say, welcome to you to your own office.

Bill, you're the host of Happy Say I Confused my podcast today. Thank you for having me on. That's glad to be here. Such an admirer of your work, and I'm a new fan of the sinner. I have to confess, I only started watching the sinner after I got you booked on this little show,

And I'm hooked. I watched season two in like two days, except for the finale, of course. Whoa, good. It's good stuff, man. Congratulations. Thank you. I'm going to position this mic a little more

so they can hear your delicious voice. We don't want to deny the audience that. Put the card over there. So I didn't introduce you as Bull Pillman as much as I wanted to because that's still one of my favorite videos ever online. Is what? Do you remember the Bull Pilman introduction?

It happens a bunch of times. Was it at the Will Smith thing? Oh, my God. The voice of God saying, and now, Boll Pilman. Yeah, every six months or so, my wife and I pull up that clip and just laugh for about half an hour. That is good. I recovered kind of, didn't I? You really did, though.

That's what sells it. Otherwise, it's just like a silly goof, but you made the most of that moment. I haven't been called Bulls since college or something like that. Is that like the worst nightmare of an actor to like in that kind of environment? you know, where supposedly everybody in the room loves and respects all your work, have your name butchered to death? Yes. It's really strange, but it's amazing how often people do it.

Like, Letterman did it, you know, Bill. You know, but I, you know, some, it's too much to go into every time. But that one was, I mean, that was an outrageous night for Will Smith, and there was, you know, all these. Some galleon kind of thing for him. You know, one after another. Black guys that are like Riffin and black women that are just know how to, to control the crowd and work them up.

And then me, I was like, the white man on the planet, the bull pen of it all. What a stiff pill that is? He's going to be a pill to take here. You made the most of it. I also, here's a revelation I just had recently. I just saw a film, Bad Times at the El Royale. I had no idea until I was doing research on you just now

that I was watching a very talented son of yours in a very pivotal role in that film. Yes, yes. It's a big part for him in his career. Big part. Yeah. Yeah. That was one of those ones where he's been going strong and everything.

But that was one of those few roles, you know, as the agent said, this is the one role that kids, you know, actors your age really want and are going to be fighting for. And I think there was, you know, a couple, 300 people that had been narrowed down by the casting person. And then they narrowed it down to 140. And then, you know, damn it, he got it. Do you, so do you feel like more anxiety, pride, anything about his career at this point than your own? Like, do you suffer the way you did early on in your career about the ups and downs, the challenges that he's facing relatively young in his career? Well, you know, there's something about him that is his own game.

He has his own integrity. At 25, I was not capable of the kind of composure that he can muster. Not that it's easy for him or he's facile at all because it does, you know, at the heart of it, you know, there's a good performer has an edge of some kind of anxiety about different things, but he can also be very calm and everything. And he isn't driven by fame. Yeah, he's not driven by fame. Did you bring your kids to sets growing up? Like, was that just like part and parcel of the? You know, I don't know if that ever meant anything to him, but we did bring him to the sets.

You know, I mean, I remember choosing to do Casper so that your kids could finally come to a set after I've been all this terrible stories. Didn't bring them to Lost Highway? Didn't bring them to all these terrible movies that malice or something, you know. But, and then when we did Lake Placid, you know, that we were out in this beautiful lake outside of Vancouver. And I had my camper, you know, the trailer for the to shoot. And I just said, you know, we should just stay here. And so they let us. And we had all the boats and everything that the movie was using. Prop Department, they left us all these great canoes and everything. And everybody just went home and we stayed on the shore side where the set was.

And, you know, I think those kind of things really. And there was a very cool caterer who had a great, and it was in the days of burning CDs. And he burned a CD for Lewis and invited Lewis on the catering truck. So maybe that's his real memory of being in sense. Right, getting cool mixed CDs from the catering staff. Yeah, who's cooking and playing tunes. Always befriend Crafty, that's the important thing.

Yeah, it's weird, like Lake Placets come up twice now in the last few weeks on this podcast. Brendan Gleason was just here. And it's funny, he's working with David E. Kelly now on a TV show and has very fond recollections that all kind of come full circle on that. Oh, I forgot that David's doing this. What is the name is true? It's Mr. Mercedes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's in the second season, and he's excellent in it, as he always is, of course. So, yeah, it's interesting because, you know, growing up, you grew up in upstate New York, correct me if I'm wrong, right? Hornell, Hornell, which in my research, I feel like you and Bob Crane are the most notable actors to come out of Hornell. Bob Crane did, yes. Yeah, isn't that? I've forgotten that because who is it that? Gabby Hayes comes from Wellsville, which was, you know, maybe 25 miles away, but 20 miles away.

So, yeah, yeah, because I went to school, probably not so far away. I went to school in Geneva, New York, at Hobart College. So, like, what's up there? What's up around there? Hobart College. That's the claim of the band. Hopefully not. Don't be there's one in that.

Well, there's Alfred University and Alfred State, which are in one. That's a very, those are small, but very potent. at places of higher learning. And, you know, we are, it's a little bit, you know, in the center when it starts the second act and they talk about it to being the burntover district. Yeah. That's just something that really means a lot to me because there was, you know, it was an area that it was a hotbed of fervor in the 1800s and, but, you know, somebody would evangelize,

everybody would get fired up by it, it'd die out. Another one would come in and, you know, it happened over and over and they called it the burnt out district and it's not the finger lakes it's west of the finger lakes a little bit but it's kind of on the edge and um and so we're we're really um i think of it as the aligani plateau which is the norm it's a plateau that uh geologically it is one of the few in the united states only two i think in the eastern sea and eastern coast and um they're all you know very lyrical, it's the top part of the Appalachian Mountain

Jade. So growing up there, was there like an affection for that region or was there a sense of, I need to get out of here. I know you're the sixth of seven. Arts wasn't necessarily like in the family with more medicine was really in the Pullman blood. Yes, very good.

Yes. No, I think it was a place of, you know, because it had had a glory. Our town was a place where the railroad did a lot of repairs to engines. And so it's half between Chicago and New York, and had 15,000 people at one point, and it's shrunk now to 8,000. So that's like an apocalyptic event, you know, and the rust belt kind of thing. But, you know, then self-esteem in a place like that.

But I brought all that, you know, they wanted to talk about that, the writers and Derek, for, you know, you're playing a detective from a small town, western New York State, and what can you tell us about that? You're the onset expert? Yeah. So, what did, so did anybody else among your brothers or sisters pursue the arts, or were you the outlier there? Well, I have an oldest brother who was an English teacher, and he paints now, a really good painter. But that's it. The rest are in medicine, caregiving.

So what accounts for, you think, your more than interest, your passion for the arts? I mean, was the art something that was important to your parents, or was it? You know, I don't... The arts wasn't even a word. The arts wasn't even a word. I mean, it's so amazing. You know, we basically, you know, shared a sense of humor with my brothers and sisters, mostly my brothers, you know, that had... And we were huge fans of Jonathan Winters.

And in those days, we listened to more 33-R-PMs, you know, albums of comedy from Jonathan Winters, you know. And those routines would crack us up. And I've never put this together until right now. But that really might have been more important than any movie I saw. We didn't watch a lot of television or anything else. But, you know, anecdotes about people. And that was our thing. And, you know, Jonathan Winters, you know.

It's a used pet shop. You've got a lot of used pets. Here's a dog. got no claws, and he's right, Paul, got to lean him again some conversation, you know, all this stuff from Jonathan Winner's albums that we'd all say to each other and crack each other up and just, you know, the voices and I'm Molly Frecker,

the oldest living airline stewardess, you know, that stuff is like it burned into my brain. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you weren't, I mean, high school, by the time even high school comes around, you're not articulating yet, like, what you want to do with your life. Maybe you don't even know it at that point.

No, and I was bucking the family's tradition of going to most, a lot of my family went to Wesleyan College. Great school, yeah, yeah. Pullman there went there in 1856, you know, and I went to a two-year vocational college for a building construction. It was like, what? Right turn. Where are you going?

And then I followed some refrigeration students to an audition for a play and got cast. and the guy, Bill Campbell, who is the director there, really was one of those people that step into your life and you suddenly are pivoting and you're doing things that you had never dreamed of. And he said, you're going to do what I did. You're going to go to college in Oneonta, it's 22 miles away, State University of College of New York and Oneonta

and get a degree in theater and get a master's or something and then come back and teach her a place like Della. It's a good life poem and you don't like it. And I did that. See, and you were, I mean, you were a young teacher, presumably. You must have been in your 20s, probably, in the 20s. Yeah, very, well, I was two years in the graduate school, and then he called and said, you've got to take over my position for a year, you know, so hold it for me so I can get it when I come back.

I have to get higher education, and so I went back to, I did exactly what, you know, and then I finished a graduate degree, and I thought I'd be an educational theater or something, and I was in Montana. I taught for two years in Montana State University and really fell in love with it. Montana. I made a lot of my long-time friends are from Montana now from those years in the 70s. And then, you know,

just said, I can't do that. I'm going to have to... If I don't leave now, I'll never leave. It's so beautiful here. And got in a pickup truck and my wife, who wasn't my wife at the time, but my girlfriend at the time, and she's a dancer.

And we just, you know, drove to New York City. Drove to New York. Yeah. And so then just sort of dove in auditioning for theater as much as you could, just trying. Because, I mean, and we'll get to the film stuff, you know, but that doesn't occur until you're 32, 33, your film debut. So there's some life you've lived before then. You were prepared for this, you amateur, man.

You're starting to. Are you unnerved? Are you scared? Yeah, well, it's so accurate. It's so fast, as you really are, I mean, I can barely remember my own life. I'm here to correct all the mistakes you make in this conversation. Then you did this. No, no.

No, so I guess my point is like, so that's a lot of years where you're like, you know, A, you're teaching and then, like, so like, what age did you come to New York? That was, that was when I was, well, let's see, I guess I was, um, what was that, so 80, 81 would be 28. Okay, yeah, 28. So that, so then we're still talking like a good four years before, you know, set foot on a film set. So are those happy times kind of like toiling and trying to find work in theater? And are there odd jobs that are kind of like filling in the gaps or what's happening? Yeah, the survival jobs, you know, in New York City. And I had been a teacher.

I couldn't tell anybody that, you know, because I was doing grant work. I was carrying boxes and liquor stores and, you know, selling wine. And I had no reason to do that. And, you know, working for the New York Times and the poll department at night, you know. But I, it's very ecstatic to be in New York City. I still get this jump, you know, just being here now. I'm reminded about all the ways in which it was such a privilege to, you didn't care where you lived, you know, just cared what you did, you know, who you could pour, where you could insert yourself into, and, you know, they wouldn't kick you out right away, but. Was it thrilling to both to be exposed to the theater in New York, both as an audience member and to start to, like, get, get some roles? I mean, that's got to be.

Yeah, I think I, you know, there was a part of it that I just really loved to exhaust. that happened, or the kind of like, you know, coming down off of having done a play, have a beer in your hand, you know, it's like, yeah, we did it. I made it. I made it one more time, but I made it. I've forded this beer. I can drink it. What more do I need?

And I had no idea about television or film. Yeah. No aspiration. I had no, not, I wasn't in my vision or anything. And, you know, I don't know, people, I don't know if people didn't have dreams then or just I didn't have any. Yeah, I was going to say, like, why? wouldn't you? I mean like it's not like yeah I just wanted I wanted to be paid to be a theater

actor yeah you know get enough money to live and support myself you know and had got out of town jobs first and then I had to make decision I'm going to have to turn work down or stay in New York because it's going to really mostly I'm not going to get anywhere unless I stay here I can't be and so I put it enough hours I felt competent and everything and then it was a play that brought me to L.A you know I went to do a played by Bill Master Simone and it was part of a new theater complex and I went out there and got to you know I had some debt and everything and got a first Cagney and Lacey episode and I cleared my debts and said this is not bad debt free what was so what was it like to be on a

TV set and then soon thereafter you're in a great movie that I remember from my youth Ruthless people from the Zucker brothers and Jim Abrams right um uh were you play like a consummate moron like a classic idiot yeah so congratulations on that thank you um but like but do you remember feeling comfortable on film and tv sets at first i mean you've done a lot of theater by them did it feel like this was an environment that was totally different or well you know i was just trying to hang on you know white knuckle in it and everything and i later heard from the writer dale loner who said did you know you were almost fired this is on ruthless people? Yeah. Because we had gone to

shoot my first scene in Griffith Park. And it was a night scene in which my character is watching two people in a car and he thinks that the police of chief police is brutalizing her and all the noises are dying, but it's actually, they're having sex. Right. I get so repulsed by it. I throw up, I decided, and we were waiting and waiting and they had a big 10K up there, lighting up the whole side. And I think it was the same night is Haley's Comet. So there were like, you know, thousands

of people up there. All of them looking down at this movie that was being shot, waiting for Haley's Comet. And I just said, wow, this is like the Coliseum. This is really and we shot wide. We shot the big master and then we ran

out of time. We had come back to it the next night. And apparently they did, they said, I don't think he's, there's, he's not doing it, you know. We took a risk. We cast him he's never worked before he's not doing it and then somebody and I never found out who it was

they said well let's wait one more night and see how it does when we come in and they came in close and then they were like oh no no he's actually doing something is that jog with like your memory do you feel like you didn't like know what you were doing at first or it was

I don't remember I remember thinking I never thought that I would be fired I hadn't thought of that but I did think that I don't really know what I'm doing but I'm going to listen and whatever they do I'm going to try to apply myself to

but I didn't and they all were kind of enjoying and everything but it was really only after the movie started to test and people said you know your character and I thought this is weird does this happen in every movie a small

character gets so much attention, but there was something about that role that just was getting an abnormal. And they said it's abnormal. I remember, look, I was probably, well, it came out like 86 or something like that. So I'm 10 years old and I literally remember seeing it with my older brother and like just, I think there's the moment when you're looking at like the ID and that like stupid photo of yourself and you say cool in a certain way. And I just remember like saying that back and forth with my older brother. It's just like, whatever you were doing, it was It did jump off the screen. Well, and I think that's what Mel Brooks saw that.

And he said, there's something interesting about that. And we'll give him a shot. And so to rocket into space balls was a big deal, beyond the lot of MGM, you know, when it was still MGM, one of the last movie shot on the lot when it was called that. It was a great little window. But to think, oh, my God. And, you know, you realize how sometimes it happens, you know,

people get fired and they could have that close yeah yeah um i mean i'm sure a slew of memories from from baseballs i mean i've i've heard you talk about affectionately uh working with john candy who kind of like went out of his way to take care of you a bit yeah this last summer was the 30th anniversary so i wrote that piece for the new york times right that was very sweet very sweet and then of course like working with like a brilliant um intellect like mel um also having to like work opposite him as yogurt and all that makeup. What do you remember about

like working opposite him in that get-up? Well, you could see that he really he could the sharp edges of delivering a line. Yeah.

He really, it's a really bold style that comes out of vaudeville in the ancient ways, you know, and probably there's people that can't pull it off, most people.

But there's something about his ability that made it. I realized, well, this guy, he's a, he makes me laugh. Yeah. So by then, did it feel like you were off to the races, that it's sort of like you were on kind of like a track that you didn't need to steer that it was just sort of like a, okay, the career is underway, there are offers, there's interest from a variety of great directors, and this is just what the career is going to be, and I'll just ride the wave, or did you feel in control of it or what? I didn't, you know, didn't really, it was, the third thing was. the serpent and the rainbow.

Right. Which was such a big... West Craven. West Craven. We shot in Haiti and the Dominican Republic. I thought, wow, this movie making is so adventurous. And then there was a bunch of years in which there weren't anything as adventurous as that. You know, they were really...

I was doing interesting movies and interesting things, but they weren't that level, you know. Yeah, less edgy, but more like you were kind of like... that mainstream of like classic kind of like studio comedies romantic comedies you know you've got penny marshal and nor effron i mean these are great talents but they all also are kind of like within the framework of like when we think of like classic Hollywood movie making that's what they are yeah yeah that uh very uh you know and then there was the period in which they said you know second male lead you know you're the guy who doesn't get the girl and the you know that whole thing and then

did that bother you? Did that like when you sort of You know not when I was doing them And then somebody started it And it was like a buzz thing That people just said Oh yeah hey that's right You know

And I had never heard You know really thought of Ralph Bellamy As being like this quintessential person That I always thought Hmm he's up in the sky going What's wrong with Ralph Bellman? Hey

I got work I paid for my house You know what's wrong with that But there was kind of, there was a facileness that, you know, people didn't even know who Ralph Balmy was or what he'd been in, but they were quoting him and they were saying that I was like him. You know, these little memes now, I guess you'd call him in people's heads. They get spread around. So I was when, while you're sleeping came up, it was a great change to go, wow, this is perfect. That's one of those movies that I feel like 30% of the time when I come back to my partner.

and my wife is watching that movie. Somehow she finds the channel it's on and it will never stop being played. And that was a surprise. I mean, that was like the definition of a sleeper hit, I remember, at the time. That kind of came out of nowhere. Sandra Bullock was not Sandra Bullock then.

Right. So did that all shock you in terms of like the way that developed into something? Like the memory. What I'm always intrigued by in that film is like this, you've got this also great ensemble, these like older actors too. You got Jack Warden and Peter Boyle.

So that's got to be rewarding, too. Yeah, yeah. That Peter was a great guy. I worked with him a couple times. Did you? Yeah, very, he came from a great school of acting and everything, great joy about it, Jack did, to Glens Johns, you know, great British actress who had been an ingenue, you know, with All rightness and everything.

I just had, I remember hearing. The stories on that set must have been amazing. There's somebody that knew. I know somebody that knows. New Alleganis, this is fantastic, yeah. This is really good. And John Turtletop, who was young director, and there was quite a bit of, you know,

drama around trying to get the script to work for us. And John really was part of why it has its magic. I think he was really great at, like, taking a pretty straight-ahead script and encouraging us to make it specific. And, you know, I mean, just they had a conclusion of that newspaper boy on the bicycle, you know, throws the newspaper and crashes. Right. And no explanation.

We're moving on. It's such a kind of real freedom. And I think so. Another one from that era I do want to mention that some people mention, but maybe not enough to my liking. I really like malice a lot. I've always had a great affection for malice. Yeah. And it didn't surprise me, I guess, too much when I went back and looked.

And I think the script was by like what? It was Sorkin, one of the co-writers? No, he wrote it. He wrote it. He wrote it. A very smart, kind of like Hitchcockian, great film directed by Harold Becker. Sat by Gordon Willis. It's gorgeous.

It's like, yeah, what's he known as like the Master of Darkness? And that is one of those films that's like steeped in darkness, but it's great. Yeah, yeah. And a different kind of a role for you, I would think, right? Yeah. Well, it was, you know, I mean, it was, in a way, that was one of the roles that they said, oh, he didn't get the girl, but I didn't understand that. Like, I was married to the girl,

but then it turns out she was with Alec Baldwin, but then it turns out that I sent her to prison. So, like, I got the best of that. Yeah, it didn't... It wasn't landed on my back bleeding or something. It's true, it's true. Oh, I also wanted to mention, so... So you taught, like, one of your sins was John Dole, way back when...

Yes. He went on to direct you in another great noir last seduction. Yeah. What was the, I mean, did you have, like, a relationship with John going back that, like, was sustained through the years? No, it actually wasn't, because then I had been teaching and then I went to New York City. And he, he, and then I came to L.A. And at a certain point, he showed up. And he had been at that, there was a film company called Propaganda Films, and they were doing a lot of videos and everything and music videos. And he, actually, there was another part that, I think,

We were talking about doing it, and I didn't, couldn't do it. And then when last seduction came, I said, yeah, and I loved to do it. And, you know, so it was really, we had the easy way of fitting back into each other. And then I did another couple things with him. Did he do? Yeah. Did a TV series that he called Fallen Angels. Yeah.

And did an episode of that, to Heather Graham and other people. and then went to do the, you kill me with Ben Kingsley. I was like about like 10 years ago or so I wanted to do, right? Yeah, yeah, I remember that one as well. We can't ignore Independence Day. That's one of those films that, again, like, follows an actor around in a good way. I mean, what are your recollections of, like, delivering that now iconic speech? Was that tough to kind of figure out a way to deliver that that satisfied you that felt right?

or did it kind of sell itself on the page? I think it was, I think it, I remember thinking, this is kind of corny. Well, it leans into it, even the music. It leans into the cornyness, I think. Yeah, yeah. And I, fortunately, I had gotten a CD collection of the greatest, 100 greatest speeches of the 20th century.

And they had the speech by Robert Kennedy when he had been told that Martin Luther King was shot. And he contemporaneously Oh, it's an amazing I've seen that speech recently actually for some reason

It's an amazing speech Isn't that something? Yeah Yeah He quotes a Greek in it He He has that whole thing about You know

I know many of you Are just shocked That you've lost a brother But I also lost a brother Right Amazing It's just a You know

And I think the sense Of this is happening Right now This isn't a prepared speech I don't know what I'm going to say right you know this is and you looking out at despair yeah you know people who are left as the as the fighter pilots and that kind of thing imagining what robert kennedy must have been looking out at you know people that

were suddenly you know black-white divisions and everything was starting to gape open and and so i i think the reality of that and everything helped and it was also that they were going to call it doomsday and Dean Devlin and Roland moved the speech scene up earlier in the schedule so that to get it because they wanted the studio to, they were going to start sticking with Doomsday. That was going to be the title of the film. I didn't know I do. Yeah.

And they said, this can't be Doomsday, you know. So we shot, you know, he said, move it up and we shot it in the night, the darkest hour in the night, like three, four o'clock in the morning. Right. You know, and so, and then I remember going on and thinking, I think we did all right. But then Dean came in with a VHS in those days and said, you want to see the cutscene? Because this is what we brought to Fox. And I think they're going to go for the title because of this.

You watch it and tell me, if they don't go for Independence Day, they're stupid, you know. That's what makes it. Today is your Independence Day. You literally made the title happen. Yeah, yeah. That's one of those roles that follows an actor around, and hopefully, for the most part, in a good way. Did it feel, is that, like, I was interested in talking to actors

about, like, the good and the bad of those kind of iconic roles. Did it ever feel like an albatross, like, a little bit of, like, I appreciate the love, but I've done some other things, too. Yeah, yeah, I don't, you know, I suppose, yeah, there's usually, like, can you come on and be, you know, in a comedy show and be a president, you know, it's like, I don't need to I did that

I didn't feel like I want to do that I It's one of those things That because the people involved We're all so close You know we were In all kind of similar place There wasn't a star vehicle

Or anything like that So And roll in the filmmaker It's really quite a terrific person To work with You know I just He has such an energy for the process and very, you know, gracious guy in a lot of ways.

And Dean Devlin also, so loves movies, loves, you know, the thrill of it. And he, so, you know, we stayed together and the idea of doing the sequel is great. And the sequel wasn't quite as successful as the first, but it was a chance to get together with everybody. And, you know, it's been a long time. I mean, get it out of our system. Were you surprised at the space? Baseballs never came together as a sequel? Was there ever, like, an actual script shown to you for that one, or it just never got that far?

Never, never got that far, yeah. Lots of talk. A lot to talk. Okay, coming full circle, I mentioned at the outset that I'm a new convert to the center, which is now concluding its second season. This is a great character. I would think this is something that you're really enjoying. Like, it occurs to me, like, outside of theater, you've never played a character at this length. No, no, I never get to come back to it, you know.

very uh it and there was a lot of speculation whether it even happened or if it was picked up it didn't have to be it could have a bunch of other ways a whole new group of actors or something but uh derrick simons you know the the the runner writer and uh he really saw that he'd like to follow ambrose you know yeah so um that has been great i feel you know so fortunate to be working with him that they seem to give me a lot of rope to hang myself with and, you know, permission to follow my instincts and to, you know, there's so much. And I see the way the choices of takes they do, because I really do a range of takes, you know, and we usually kind of have a sliding scale that's somewhere about, you know,

how uncomfortable in your own skin are you? Oh, interesting. Yeah. Is that generally your practice on a set to like give the director a few different options as opposed to coming It's set with like, this is the one specific viewpoint I have of this? Or is it particular to this character, you think it works? I think that particular aspect of it is in this character. I mean, because it's, you know, it's challenging because, you know, dialogue has to be written so quickly.

And there is a sense of fast onus. And then, you know, there's the monster of TV is the fact that, you know, the plot is a cookie monster. It eats everything. It eats a specificity of character. it eats up all the stuff and it just it's really sometimes just relieving that you're getting all these story points in

you know and I and I hate that you know I hate exposition I hate the procedural part of it and the good thing is that he says small town cop so he doesn't use you know it's easy to write you know give them a a GDP you know

you have did you call in the S bar all right and you know it's like I don't, I think he's just still calling it. Like, did you call in the, you know, description of the guy or, you know, something like that? It's because it's kind of a crutch to be that specific. It's, even though it's more specific, it's more generic. Yeah. Because it's like any procedure has that talk.

Right. You wouldn't do well with like a captain of a starship on Star Trek with all that techno babble. That might drive you insane. I am friends with Scott Bacula. Oh, yeah. And I always look at him and go, how do. You do it, you motherfucker. You know, you got to, it's like, you know, it's like Shakespeare.

No, it's not like Shakespeare. It's like a lot of shit you've got to say. I can't do it. Get to the good stuff. Get to the good character stuff. And this, I mean, one of the cool things is, like, this guy, in many ways, is kind of as fucked up as the cases he's looking at. He's got his own demons that he's dealing with.

That's kind of why he's, like, relating to the victims and the suspects as much as anything. Yeah. And I'm curious, because it's, like, also one of those characters that, like, carries some secrets that are, like, kind of revealed as the show goes on. Are you the kind of actor that, like, whether it's written into the script or not, like, you like to have a secret about the character? I've heard actors talk about that, like, something that they'll never even necessarily reveal to a director or on camera, but it's helpful for them to kind of nail the specificity of a character. Yeah, I think so, you know, that everybody's got to do certain amount of that or something. thing. I think partly because you're trying to do a facsimile of real life and the spontaneity of real life. And the truth is that there's a lot of contradictory thoughts going on

in your head as you're talking. And that level of saying one thing and thinking about another thing is part of reality. And if you're a distracted person or if you're a person who's living some kind of denial about who they really are, that when they get, they have little radar going off, don't reveal, don't reveal. So they're talking about, you know, and one of the things I always love is when people say, can I be frank with you? And you know you're not going to get into. Yeah, once you hear that. Okay, so

we're not going to be frank. Okay, got it. Go ahead and lie. And I think, you know, that sense of, you know, I mean, it's so, it's elementary, but, you know, it's something about lines, you know, that feels primary. And fortunately, and we're in an

environment where, you know, it's not sometimes what you say, it's your reaction to what's said. Right. You know, keeping that in mind and Derek keeps that in mind. All the directors have really been great, and they're always saying, you know, if there's something that's really hard to say, you know, they said, well, what are you, what would you like to say with it? And we don't have time to change these words to kind of get this thing right.

So say that what you, but is subtext for what you're saying, you know. And just are helping us all to articulate. that, you know, so that we can keep it, you know, all kind of in the zone about, you know, finding the truth of every line. Was that a concern when you kind of jumped into this kind of an ongoing potential series that, like, again, it's, I think, you know, as much as we talk about this amazing, glorious golden age for television, it's the time, it's all about time in the end. And, like, if you don't have time to kind of, like, have those discussions and to kind of loosen up a scene and play with it, to, to be so rigid with dialogue and to just sort of like feel like a puppet is probably your worst nightmare as an actor, right? Yeah, yeah. And that was just of great fear.

I hadn't really signed on to very much that would put me in that thing. I just thought, I got everything I need. I got my house paid for. I don't need to work for money, you know, really. That's, you know, that kind of money to just take a job because you need to keep the flow going or something. and so I but this was so different you know this is so different

about botany thing which I really love and you know this it's amazing I was reading this great book called The Wonder of Birds by Jim Robbins as an New York Times science writer about birds and there was a great chapter on murmurations and I was talking about murmurations and lo and behold in episode 7

there's a murmuration I'm waking up. I'm in the hotel and I'm looking out and then this flock of starlings are flipping around and, you know, thousands of birds moving and no one's crashing. What is that? You know, it's a really, and so to have that to be so kind of being kind of farmed for stuff, you know, and that was really great. You also have performed in a film that I'm very much looking forward to this fall with a director that I know is pretty fluid. I've been on some. some of his sets, Adam McKay, which, so it's, I think it's now called Vice. It's called Vice?

Yeah, they called Vice, as in, I assume, vice president who's telling the story of Cheney. That's so good. They were, just the title thing

has been flipping. I know it was like backseat for a while, and then they just didn't have a title. Apparently it's called Vice. Yeah, so there's news to both of us, I guess.

That's very, you're the first, I heard from you. Yeah. So I couldn't be more curious about this one. What was the environment like on, instead of that one,

you're playing, I think like Nelson Rockefeller, correct yes yeah it uh it i think well if you were on the set i wasn't on set of this one but i've been on past adam mackay sets and i so i know the way he works but i've seen the way he works in comedies like full-on comedy so i don't know if it's a different environment on something like this is there a bullhorn involved is he screaming different dialogue yes yes well he's got it more sophisticated he's got ghetto blasters and he's got a microphone that he holds you know but it's a voice of god coming over and saying you know now say it's a big

tomato stuck up your ass now say you know if i could get that up your ass i do you know um just in certain times you know dropping into a moment or something and then other times uh you know but so free and uh you know i've gone back and added um narrating sessions the movie oh cool and uh said why why are we doing this i mean i'm not you haven't met me nobody's met in elson rockefeller and goes i know i know i like that part So do you have a sense of what that film is going to be or look like, or is that one of those things where it could be anything in the hands of McKay in the era? I think, you know, it's like catch your breath, you know.

What? Oh, my God. You know, there's just a kind of freedom that's dazzling and compelling, you know. And you can't, you know, to have these kind of doing some kind of, and there's a way in which, you know, politics in America can feel Shakespearean, you know. And people would say that that's Shakespeare, but no one would say there's actually a section where it feels really like Shakespeare, like Shakespeare. I don't think I'm spoiling anything, but it's like so free and things that would shift and all of the laugh and a giggle and just a big embrace of life. You know, he's got so much life in him and he's so intelligent.

and he really, you know, cares deeply about politics and everything, but he can make fun of everything, and nobody's sacred, you know. In a way, Nelson Rockefeller is like, you know, there were Rockefeller Republicans, and they were environmentalists, and, you know, people don't remember that they were, you know, at pro-education, they worked with labor and everything, and at a certain point, he became, he had to be disposed of, and the party took a hard right. And so, you know, in a way Nelson was, is, you know, something of anomaly nowadays when you look back. But I think he, even that, you know, he's not a saint to Adam McKay.

It's like we're all complicated people doing complicated things as we die. Right. I couldn't be more fascinating. I mean, yeah, I mean, please, that cast, Christian Bill and Sam Rockwell, it's going to be fascinating. Yeah. And fun, I would imagine the hands of McKay. You're also, I mean, we've talked a bunch about theater throughout. I just want to mention, I think you're going to be headed to London next year, right?

Acting opposite Sally Field and Martha Miller's, all my sons, is that right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like to get on the boards and to be in London. I studied there as a student in the 70s. Have you ever done to play there at the Old Vic? No, that's going to be a number. I've never done to play there in London and it's the old Vic and everything. Though I did remember very vividly listening to an interview with Anthony Hopkins when they, you know,

he was doing science labs and he said what's your version of hell and he goes playing a matinee at the old vick on a rainy afternoon he notoriously hates the theater like once he left the theater he was like i'm never going back movies was it for him that doesn't describe you you're somebody that it seems like still has a great affection for yeah yeah no it did scare the shit out of me you and tony can be different in some ways it's okay right yeah no i i think it's a great play and there's great You know, I have such respect for their sense of theater and everything. I am also very arrogantly proud of American theater actors. You know, I just saw a play the other night, last night.

How did you say? The True. And it's with E.D. Falco, Michael McKeon and Peter Scuilari. And, oh, my God, this is like acting, American acting at its best. You know, they're just tearing up Johnny Polanco and Benko. And really, everybody's kind of. kind of astounding and the words are great and it's about politics in albany in 1977 and i thought what is this going to be and it's just compelling as hell revealing

about human nature it's a it's a it's a love triangle of a really special variety and i just think well i'll go and be with the brits and i got a you know i'm proud of our tradition and american actors and i hope i can be part of that and and meet them in their best because the rest of them are Brits, you know, that pretty much that it will be in the cast, yeah. They do great American accents, and, you know, they're pretty handy. Does

theater still, like, satisfy something in you that's a little bit different than the film or TV work? Is there still something you get out of it that's satisfying in a different way? I think, yeah. There's a very, it's a great sense of freedom. You know, in a way, you're all, you're a director,

you're a, you're the editor, you're the, you know, you're the sound guy. you've got all that stuff and you're playing with it so it's a you know there's a sense of control and then a sense of freedom that you give yourself or you wait to find or you know and it's very humbling you know very crazy how bad you can be for how so long and there's no faster way to do it that's like technology hasn't improved right you can't go any faster than what it takes to find the play and find your character in relationship to everybody else. And, you know, that's pretty daunting.

But when I turned 60, I wanted to do a whole year plays. And I did a bunch and ended up in the last play that I did. In fact, it was in Norway. I was going to say, how did that, we'll end on this note, because I know I'm taking up a lot of your time. But yeah, how do you end up doing an extended run in Norway on stage? It's like doing the part of Othello in Othello. Yeah.

Yeah. It was because I had worked with. this Norwegian theater director like 28 years before and I always is in my mind and so when I was doing this thing about you know people whether they buy a Mazda convertible or something when they turn 60 I don't think that's going to do it for me and I'm going to do some Norwegian theater of a fellow that's my Mazda that's my thing oh my god and he's such a physical that the theater director and but it was in the national theater in Bergen you know Ibsen's theater and you know there's a part of me

that you know feels that the spirits of the ghosts that are in there are also climbing around inside me and you know it's a it was a really transformational thing it literally to just perform it i lost so much weight gained so much strength i mean it was like i changed my whole body and everything and um it was bilingual so i had to speak some norwegian and english and testing yourself in every way it was so huge i kind of made me think I think I don't need to do another play for a while. Right. You know, I don't know.

I'd done the sticks and bones just before that. I'd done a one that called Healing War, that it was, you know, really, that it. And so I thought that's it. But then this came up and it feels right. The timing feels right. Yeah, I got to itch for it. It's got to be like a great point in a career where, like, you were kind of alluding to this before. Like, you've, you have this.

amazing body of work and this great breadth of material on stage and screen where it's like you don't have to chase being something at this point. You know what I mean? Like you're Bill Pullman and like you have that body work and people know it and it's not like you have to go after being Tom Cruise. You can do Norwegian theater if like... It's so

good. Yeah. Nobody's good. The role police aren't blowing their whistles at me. And I did this the Ballad of Lefty Brown in December of this Western where he's a Walter Brennan type character, sidekick who becomes the hero. and then this this trouble is eccentric character he's smoking pot and he's you know firing from both with both pistols you know and uh so i feel like i'm going through a lucky period in which that

kind of thing seems to you know it's never really evenly paced or anything it's just have mees where they're like congealed in this particular time period but it's uh it's a it's a really It's great privilege to feel like, well, you know, nobody's going to say he's the boy next door, the guy that didn't get the girl. I mean, that's like, just please, you're in the dust. Yeah, that narrative has long since past, thankfully. It's been such a great pleasure to get to know you a little bit today. As you can tell them, I've always been a fan of your work and continue to admire the choices that you're making. And everybody, if they haven't checked out, the sinner, go back and check out season once.

Season 2, wrapping up right now, and hopefully we see more of Harry in seasons to come. Who knows? And you know what I'm hopeful to see? You set me up. There's a picture right here of Michael Shannon in a little rabbit suit, and I'm imagining that someday you're going to ask me to get into some little animal outfit. Don't make promises you're not willing to keep. Okay, okay.

But you have to have me back to do that. Yes. It's a date. I'm going to ruin your career at some point. And put you in some horrible outfit. Thanks for stopping by today. You bet. Thanks, ma'am.

And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressure to do this by Josh. I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the LA Times. And I'm Paul Shear, an actor, writer, and director. You might know me from The League, Veep, or my non-eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters.

We love movies, and we come at them from different perspectives. Yeah, like Amy thinks that, you know, Joe Pesci was miscast in Goodfellas, and I don't. He's too old. Let's not forget that Paul thinks that Dude, too, is overrated. It is. Anyway, despite this, we come together to host Unspool, a podcast where we talk about good movies, critical hits. Fan favorites, must-season, and Casey Mistoms. We're talking Parasite the Home Alone.

From Greece to the Dark Night. We've done deep dives on popcorn flicks. We've talked about why Independence Day deserves a second look. And we've talked about horror movies, some that you've never even heard of like Ganges and Hess. So if you love movies like we do, come along on our cinematic adventure. Listen to Unspooled wherever you get your podcast. And don't forget to hit the follow button. Thank you.