Happy Sad Confused - B.J. Novak

Episode Date: July 21, 2022

Yes, B.J. Novak is fully aware how strange it sounds for him to writing/directing and starring in a film called "Vengeance" but that's just part of the surprising fun of the film. B.J. joins Josh for the first time to talk about his career from PUNK'D and THE OFFICE to this very auspicious filmmaking debut. For all of your media headlines remember to subscribe to The Wakeup newsletter here! Don't forget to check out the Happy Sad Confused patreon here! We've got exclusive episodes of GAME NIGHT, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Happy, Sad, Confused begins now. Today on Happy, Sad, Confused, B.J. Novak, from the office to a feature film writing and directing career with vengeance. Hey, guys, Josh Harrow is here with another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused, and a new first-time guest to the pod, but someone, of course, you're familiar with,

Mr. Taryn Edgerton. Taran Edgerton. I'm already promoting next. next week's podcast. Tarran Edgerton is next week. B.J. Novak is this week. I'm losing my mind, guys. I just came from the Taran Edgerton event. We taped a live event at the 90 Second Street Y. You know what? I'm going to keep this in. This is real. This is real life. No, today's podcast is with BJ Novak. BJ, of course you know from the office, among other things, but now he has turned his sights on a feature film writing and directing career. He has also starring in the new film Vengeance.

which I got a chance to see it. It's Tribeca Film Festival premiere just a few weeks ago. As soon as I attended, I was like, oh, I got to talk to BJ. This is the perfect excuse. And this conversation more than lived up to it. He's a smart, funny guy that I definitely relate to on many levels. And it was a joy to talk about this new film, which starts off with a really fun, provocative premise. Basically, in a nutshell, BJ plays a podcast or journalist type who,

has been hooking up with a woman who has turned up dead in West Texas. He gets a phone call from the family saying, you are our daughter's boyfriend. That's what she said about you, so you have to come to West Texas. He did not consider himself a close acquaintance. So he finds himself embroiled in this mystery around the sadly deceased daughter. Was she murdered?

Was it a drug overdose? The mystery will unspooled before our eyes. But it's a really twisty, fun, smart drama, comedy, mystery, a little bit of everything. Features BJ at the center, but also Ashton Coucher is great in it. Boyd Holbrook is fantastic in it. Great ensemble and a really promising debut for BJ. And it's not a surprise. This guy has the stuff as a writer and creator. So this was a fun excuse to catch up. Some other things I do want mention that I've been up to because it's been a busy time. The Gray Man you probably have heard of by now. This is the new ginormous action movie from the Russo Brothers, Ryan Gosling, Chris Evans,

and a big ensemble. I got a chance to moderate a big event with the entire cast in LA last week. That was awesome. But for your purposes, I got a chance to sit down with Ryan Gosling. And that was awesome. And it's up right now. That's Lucy. Can you hear Lucy my dog snoring behind me? She's not interested. But you are hopefully in Ryan Gosling. Got a chance to sit down with Ryan and we had a great chat. I'm really proud of it. It's up on MTV News's YouTube page. It is silly. It is fun. It is a great time. I highly recommend it. Check it out. And check out the Grey Man. It's on Netflix this Friday. If you want a big summer action movie, I dug it. I really did. Big fun action set pieces. Chris Evans is a great bad guy. And Ryan Gosling does his kind of

Stoic Leading Man thing really well, some nice quips, some nice supporting cast turns, highly recommended. Other things to mention. I mentioned Taran Edgerton when I flubbed that intro. He's on the podcast next week. Had a great live conversation with him at the 92nd Street Y. You'll be able to check that out on the podcast next week. If you want to watch it, just subscribe to the happy, sad, confused Patreon. Patreon.com slash happy, sad, confused.

virtually every episode of the podcast the last couple years is up there in video form. Not this one with B.J. Novak. And let me explain why. That's the one sad part of today's conversation. The Zoom conversation, usually I record these over Zoom like everybody else, failed me. Zoom literally just decided not to record. I hit record. At the end, it just like imploded. My computer basically self-destructed. No recording. Oh my God. The podcast lost forever. But no, B.J. Novak again saves the day. He recorded the audio on his end. What does that mean? BJ sounds pretty great. I sound like shit. I apologize. What are you going to do? Here we are. But the good news is the podcast exists. It's usable on my end, and B.J.

sounds great, and that's the most important thing. So I just want to explain to you the audio quality. The one last thing I want to mention, because I know a lot of you guys out there follow all the genre properties and are perhaps either attending or going to be paying attention to San Diego Comic-Con, I'll be there. So if you see me out there in the wild, of course, say hello. If you don't see me out there, don't worry, all of my interviews, and there are going to be a ton of them will be up on MTV News and Comedy Central's, various social media and YouTube platforms. I will, of course, be pushing these out on my platforms, and it's going to be a fun time. I'm really excited to be out there. Again, it's one of my favorite events, and it's been too long. So follow along my misadventures in San Diego from afar, if you so desire, Joshua Harowitz on Twitter and Instagram.

Okay, that's all the business at hand. Let's get to the main event. Remember, Vengeance is out in theaters on Friday. I definitely recommend it. Great film from a really talented gentleman in Mr. B.J. Novak. And speaking of B.J., here's my conversation with him. And yeah, I sound a little crappy. Sorry, I'm sorry. There's no formal introduction, but this, well, one of the characters in B.J. Novak's new film says, I do believe every white guy needs a podcast. And I'm Josh

Hartowitz, and this is my podcast. This is what it is, B.J., I'm sorry. I mean, look, I obviously my character is much like you. So I identify. I identify. Sometimes a white guy needs a podcast. Hey, I'm just finding a good fight. Um, congratulations on the film man. I saw you on a big, big day for you. There was your big premiere in Tribeca. Um, and look, you're a smart guy. You know what it's like. You never know how it's going to be received. I've been to many a premiere from many an actor making their debut and you're always like, what's it going to be? Um, my sense is you felt pretty damn good that night. That's got to be a moment. I felt good that night. The whole time.

I was whispering to Mindy Kaling next to me, the sound is too low, the sound is too low, the sound is too low. And she was like, well, you shut up, it's fine. By the way, it was too low. But that's not,

the point is the movie. You made them lean in. I did make them lean in. The movie worked that night, and that's much bigger than whether the decibel level was 7.8 or Dolby 8, which was my fight.

So look, but that's how I, that's how I think. Yes, thank you. Big picture. It was a good night. has this been on the list for a while to write and direct your own film i mean somehow you've you've been a best-selling children's author rather and an app developer before you made your own film i know i was procrastinating forever because this is my dream this is what i came out here to do

and um it took me till i was 42 years old and had done every conceivable uh side hustle until i got to um really got it together enough but you know you you realize Every movie is a miracle that it gets made, let alone one that came out how you wanted it to. I really had no idea the odds that are against anybody, even someone with so many advantages like I had going into this, the odds against any project happening, let alone happening the way you wanted to,

are like infinitesimal. I say that word carefully and deliberately, because I didn't know how to pronounce it. I can spell it but not pronounce it. I mean, that does get to sort of like a big, basic stupid question I have, which is like, how difficult is it for someone like you, for BJ Novak, with the resume you have, to get a movie of this size made with you starring in it? Like, can you contextualize a little bit of like how much of a boulder up a hill it was?

Absolutely. Well, it's, you know, if you really want to get into the film aspects of it, which I know you do because I know I know the podcast, yeah, let me try to break that down. So I think that probably the most important thing you said was size. And, you know, this is a $5 million movie that became six and then became 6.5 because of COVID. But, you know, a movie that size is, it takes a lot less to get someone to take a long shot bet. It's sort of like it's a penny stock to somebody like, you know, universal in the big scheme of things now a lot of movies like a lot of movies that are as good or

better than this one are two million you know um sorry to bother you with something like three um bodies bodies bodies was probably i don't know less i you know i think that and yet i never know what a movie costs and i told them that when i signed on i was like you is this people and people always ask you if you're in my position you know what do you think this costs i don't know what anything costs What are you talking about? $5 million, $50 million. I don't know. It all looks the same to me.

Now I get it because I've had to go over budgets and make compromises, et cetera, et cetera. But I think the fact that it's $5 million makes it a real wild card that someone can choose to take a bet on a $5 million movie if they really believe in it for any number of reasons or any combination of reasons. So I think people, the people that backed it really liked the script. That was one thing.

The actors, I'm very good at writing four acts. actors being an actor and being a verbose person who loves writing a monologue. I love writing a monologue to a fault. Actors love monologues. So if you fill it with monologues, the audience might get bored. But the actor thinks finally the, you know, the scene chewing scene I've been waiting for. Ashton turning to some of the speeches he gets. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Come on. Yeah. That's rich. That's cold. Thank you. So I write a good speech. and um and you know i write a decent script when i spend you know years and years on it and um and have a lot of writing uh training so i think a script that some people liked and that attracted good actors

and was with a recognizable actor not a bankable one i would say but you know sure that's something and and so i think you know putting a combination of script cast and someone who just personally believed in it and caught Jason Blum in a good mood, you know, it's not crazy that this movie would get made, but it's also, you know, it wouldn't be crazy at all if it never got made. I think the fact that it's $5 million is just under the threshold where someone can take a bet if they really like a couple things about it. Right. It's funny because, like, in watching the movie, and I didn't know much going in, and I almost

would encourage people not to know too much going in, but like, if you watch the first five minutes of the movie, you're like, oh, this is kind of the movie I would expect B.J. Novak to be directing. This is going to be kind of like a relationship comedy, urban, you know, and then it's just like totally takes a 180. And I'm just curious, like, you know, it kind of takes balls for you, someone like you, to write exterior West Texas as the first shot in a script, I would think. Thank you. It sure did. Because like going in, it's not like there's a secret portion of your life I didn't know about, where you were, like, living in West Texas for 10 years. Dude, I'll tell you the scariest thing I did was writing the title page, Vengeance.

I'm like, am I serious? Vengeance, B.J. Novak. I'm like, now, that is also what gave me the confidence to write it. Because I'm like, you see Vengeance B.J. Novak, you're like, something ain't right here. Maybe I will read this. But, yeah, that's what gave me the existential, like, what the fuck am I doing was literally a title vengeance but also it made me think you know this there's something funny in an interesting way if i'm writing a movie called vengeance so yeah i think getting out of my comfort zone in that sense

was um was what drew me to it and the challenge of writing texans in a way that wouldn't get me beat up in texas um you know i think all of these things made me think oh this is a dangerous movie and um and so it's the kind of thing i can get obsessed with getting right which i think is the draw to deciding what to do so you you you I presume went there to kind of like at least yeah like to like get a sense to people like no like I'm always curious like are you like hi I'm researching a movie and they're like you know you're the guy from the office what the fuck are you doing in my little town here like what's the vibe or it's exactly it's exactly what you just it's exactly what you just said with a different line reading it's I wish I could quote you exactly but

it's with a sort of happiness a delight in Texas anyway and And I thought the opposite. I was like, oh, my God, they're going to see this Jewish East Coast Hollywood guy saying he's making a movie about them. And they are going to want to kick my fucking else immediately. How do I ever convince them that, no, I really want to tell like a fun, interesting, honest family, you know, story that it's, sure, it's a comedy, but blah, blah, blah. So I got like, oh, my God, you're the guy from the office, you're here to make a movie.

Let me show you everything. Come, have dinner at my house. Come to Easter dinner with us. I got, and I do think there, it is something very much about Texas, and maybe, maybe other parts of the South too, but, you know, being from Boston, my cousins aren't that friendly to me. You know what I mean? Like, it was, it's a very, very important to the script. Everything you just described, was that already in the script? Because you just described literally what the nature would have been too much of how you're taken in by this family.

No, I mean, that's, that is why I did the research first. I mean, I think it was reflected in, in the script after I did that. research and then the actors, really, the rehearsals with the actors and that little space we had, you know, and I really am an obsessive perfectionist about things that matter and things that don't. So just going to every possible house, is it? Are they in a trailer? Are they in a double white? Are they in a suburb that's faded? Are they at the, in a big house at the end of a dirt road? You know, I visited all of these locations and the families, you know, you can also get a sense when new location scout who lives who lives in this house for real and what are they watching on TV

and how are they dressed and how do they treat their kids i mean you pick up all sorts of things just um when you're sort of invisibly prepping a movie and i could see i think that the house they were and it was a comfortable house um with a a cramped kitchen table and that leads to a certain type of family dynamic right so what is what is like the germ of the idea that gets you excited for something like this is it putting yourself like someone like you your persona essentially in the context of like you know film noir like you know you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're jettis you're in chinatown but like what if it were bj day it was everything i hated about myself and everything i wished i were i i think were the polls of this movie um i hate that

the coolest i feel is you know when i can get a a little glamour from standing next to someone like John Mayer at Soho House. I hate that about myself. This is shallow. I'm not as smart as I think. I'm not as cool as I think. When I have one too many drinks and feel like a cool guy and then I see a picture of myself the next day,

I hate that person in that photo, you know? And it had just been after a relationship where I regretted, oh my God, I was, I sucked. And I didn't pay attention to this person that now is gone and I have all these regrets. So it was really everything I hate about myself, everything I regretted. And I wrote it and, well, I'll tell you one aspect of that now is that it's a very interesting.

It's like the douchebag version of the more personally you are, the more universal you are. So so many people read the script or saw that movie and I was like, that's me. That's everyone. And I was like, well, I'm not the only guy. I'm not the only person, not just guys. So many girls have, you know, Jake, you know, Club in their phone or, you know, Mike Tinder. it's not just me it's not just john you know it's and you realize like oh okay being shallow in these times is something everyone battles with everyone relates to some more than others but

so that person became the universal so it really started with what you know what i wanted to put myself through the ringer for in a funny way well what's the worst thing that could happen to me and i was regretting this breakup so i was especially that's where a lot of the best writing comes from when you are so vulnerable and open and then i think the other side was honestly wish fulfillment, sort of like a version of, what if I started a movie called Vengeance? You know, Vengeance by B.J. Novak. Oh, yeah, could I do that?

And that fantasy has to kind of meet somewhere, well, who are you at your worst and who do you wish you could become? And what is the realistic, realistic Venn diagram? And how far could you push that? So I think that's why it was such a personal movie and why I was so shocked when they said I could make it, even though for all the reasons I told you, it's not the most insane thing

that a guy from the office with the script like that and some actors interested would get it, I still couldn't really believe it, you know? Do you yourself give friends and family a usual nicknames in your phone? Do you have really literal names? I, sometimes if I'm in front of them, I'll be like Princess Natalie, you know, whatever,

if I'm ribbing someone, but in general. No, but all the time, you know, Mike contractor. you know stuff like that alisa housekeeper you know definitely i have stuff like that um i think i mentioned this to you at the party i appreciated the terry gross cameo she has chosen her roles very carefully over there she has not done much outside of the simpsons i think oh she was on the simpsons that's funny yeah she and she um she gets the the juicy line i love what you're doing with dead white girl to hear terry gross say that great seriously yeah love it yeah as an npr fan myself like that was my big That was definitely my big get.

Do you give her line readings? Do you just let her do her thing? Like, are you directing her? Does she just send that line to? You know, we recorded, we did a few takes. I think I combined a couple takes. I really liked her sort of quote off camera when she was just like, great to talk to you or whatever.

I used that because it was just so natural. But it wasn't too much of a stretch for her. Do you, yeah, exactly. Do you, so do you show this film to friends and family? Like, do you like, do you like ask Mindy to look at this for her notes? do you ask filmmakers you know for notes or me you're terrified to show mindy um but yes i i'm i'm like clutching my fist in terror when i show it to people but i also very much believe in showing it to people and you know the earliest you know way i i struck out in the world um you know on my own

was doing stand-up and so and stand-up is really a a brutal lesson in uh learning what works and what doesn't And so I think anyone, and I've noticed Jad Apatow do this too, and he's a former stand-up, he shows, I was knocked up, I had one line and knocked up, and they tested that movie a hundred million times. And my line was different every screening, because they were just seeing what, by the way, the line I wish was in was not in, which, anyway, I'll tell you another time. But I think, you know, if you've done stand-up, you want to test your movie a lot, and it's funny because many filmmakers run from that. And the studio wants to test it. The studio didn't even want to test it. And I was like, no, you please, you promised me a screening. And so they put together

it was during COVID, so they had to put together employees from the universal lot, um, who I was warned, they're going to be brutal because they're, they're trying to impress their bosses by giving notes. And I was like, all right, I'll take it. I'll take it. And I, I hid behind the glass wall. It wasn't so bad, you know. Okay. Yeah. How much, how much of this is also about, like, And their notes were helpful, too. Do you find that, like, look, you're presented with interesting opportunities, I'm sure. I'm sure you're up for some interesting roles. But maybe there are limits to that in terms of what people envision you as.

Like, I don't know if you're getting the offers to be, like, the lead in a movie called Vengeance. You only can write that for yourself. I've got to imagine I'm the last person on any list for a movie called Vengeance, which was why it was funny to me, as well as why I would have to write it for myself, sure. But is that an exciting thing in terms of, like, yes, I get to, like, sew my oats as a filmmaker in this one, too. But I also get to stretch myself as an actor. Because no one is presenting this kind of fun opportunity. Oh, absolutely.

You know, I wrote the script and, you know, again, I keep saying, I seriously, I take everything, but I worked with an acting coach on it, you know? And I showed it to her. And she said at first, when I read this, for the same reason you did, she said, I kept turning the cover page, like, did BJ really write this? Because it wasn't just that I had, you know,

written about characters, not like myself. It's that I was writing myself so far. She's like, the first few pages, I get it. That's what you do. But then she's like, then I realized why you wrote this. It was to stretch yourself as an actor. And I thought, well, no, I wrote it to stretch myself as a writer. And this is where the character had to go.

But, you know, she, her lens is acting. And so, and that made me realize, oh, you have a real, you have a real job here as an actor to stretch. And that was, I like acting, so that was cool too. And I definitely think I'm better. I definitely had to be, you know. What do you, is there like a general way to say, like, what kind of stuff you're offered in terms of acting roles

or what comes your way? What do people still pigeonhole you in a certain kind of thing? Well, you know, they, everybody's a writer, which I get it. I look like a writer, I feel like a writer. But, yeah, no, generally it's like a writer who this, writer who that I'm like I can play stupid I can be an idiot I am an idiot already and not but in the thinks he's smart type of way I'm sure maybe I'll get that after vengeance um let's go back if you'll indulge me a little bit so um growing up who who is who's kid BJ like with like a 10

12 year old like what are the aspirations what yeah yeah first of all name was Ben which I changed to BJ when I was like fifth grade which is huge pros and cons my friend Okay, let's open up that candleworks for a second. Because, I mean, come on. Like, who does that to themselves? I didn't know what I was walking into, first of all. And I didn't know what I was walking into. But you know what?

I thought it sounded famous and I wasn't wrong, Josh. No, but for real, I was like, I'm exaggerating somewhat. But there were four kids named Ben Ben in my class, Ben M, Ben N, Ben K, and Ben C. And I was like, my name is really Ben, Ben, fucking N? I'm sure I didn't talk like that then but that's how I thought in my head and there was a kid on Nickelodeon named BJ and I was like that's cool

and my middle name was Joseph so I was like yeah BJ Novak and my parents were like I don't think you want to do that they look at each other you know what now it's my fucking name and you know what now I like it but like some people call me that some people call me Ben but no now I like it you know it just it is

but it's also it's nice there were probably bad years in there, I'm sure, but you got through it. I got through it. See, now if I change it back, you'd be like, oh, you think you're so smart now, I'm Benjamin. But I do think that, what was I going to say?

I forget. But no, I mean, it's my, I don't know, I do, it's nice to have a different name on your Starbucks Cup. Do you know what I mean? Right. Yeah, it helps you. Stay on. So what were you into? What were you passionate about it as a kid, like 10, 12, 15, what are your obsessions?

Honestly, I've been the same kid since like six, seventh grade, honestly. I wanted to be a writer. I wanted to be an actor. I wanted to be funny. I wanted to play pranks. I wanted, I had this deadpan sense of humor. I wasn't a popular kid, but I wasn't a loser. I was just some kid in the middle who was a little,

there was a rumor that he was a little bit funny maybe like I don't know you know but I wasn't I really do think I was a version of who I am now the whole time I was probably more interested in the Red Sox at that point and I still like them but I was very into it but it's pretty the evolution has been subtle I relate very much I was diehard Yankees and I feel like I could barely I can name like five Yankees now and I'm like I don't know what I've become like what happened exactly I'm so ashamed because now I can get Red Sox tickets. And I'm like, story. Got it. I know him. Evaldi, sure. Poser! Yeah, I know. I know.

Now I get the tickets, and I used to be able to name the whole lineup. Yeah. But you talk about feeling like you're kind of in the middle or whatever, like, look, going to Harvard, being on the lampoon, like, this is lofty. This is, like, pedigree. This is, like, where, like, great comic writers and do you feel, but do you feel, but world, like, one of the good ones?

Like, I'm set. Like, I'm on the, I'm on the, I'm on the, upper tier. We're all going to make it. Like, what were you, where was your attitude, your confidence level in the college years coming out of college? It was, um, everything was like, and it's still probably reflected in how I was describing vengeance, you know, writing that title page and then thinking that would be awesome. And then it's like, wait, am I, I'm out of my mind. I'm never going to get away with this, you know. And then someone says, let's make it. And I, you know, and I freak out. I think that is this sort of huge, confident swing that doesn't quite feel real, and then it is, and I adjust.

So I think, you know, oh, I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to get into Harvard, and I'm going to write for the lampoon, and then I'm going to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then, like, out of, you know, I won't quite say a miracle, but, like, my parents were surprised that I got in. Like, I was not an A student quite. I was bright, but I was a B plus, say minus. you know, whatever, but I went for it and I did it. And now here I am. And I think, okay, all right, like, here's your shot.

And I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that. And I forget your exact question, but it's not like I ever felt comfortable. It always felt, okay, if I have this, what would be the coolest, most rebellious thing to do now that I'm sort of in the inner sanctum? you know and and what and what was the ultimate so getting out of school as i understand it stand-up is kind of the first thing you kind of pursue is the goal then like i'm going to be the world's greatest stand-up i'm going to get a sitcom i'm going to like do that ride or when i developed an app i was going to be the world's greatest app developer i was going to be Zuckerberg you know what i mean like whatever when i started doing stand-up i was going to be you know the greatest stand-up i still

do like stand-up a lot and would like to um i would like to um i would like like to have something new to do to say, but I don't have that right now. But I don't just want to go up to kind of wing it with the old stuff. But I love stand-up. You and Eddie Murphy, we're waiting for the return for both of you. Yeah, well, it'll be a double bill. We're co-headliners, for sure. So the first thing I want to talk about in the career that I'm fascinated by,

because I, too, love the pranks and love the prank shows. Punked. Punked was awesome. I thought punk was great. Yeah, my mom. doesn't agree, but I do. I love that. So what are your memories?

The Zoolog sticks out. Did all the stuff you do make it to air? Were there horrible incidents that didn't make it? Was it stressful? It's got to be like, that's, you know, it's one take you have. Exactly. It was the most, first of all, I was plucked out of, you know, I had been a raising dad writer, which is Sagitt's sitcom on the CW.

I think it was, it was called the WB. and um you know and then i was that then i was a former raising dad writer you know um and then all of a sudden like ashton kutcher you know puts me on punked i was a stand-up then and they're always who are the stand-ups around town and i had developed a reputation i got to audition and i did a great um improvised improvised audition and i got the part you know right after Dach Shepherd. All these people keep coming back in my life. They're like from, it's like talking about like the cool kids from high school to me now. It's like Dax and I mean, I still know them now in different contexts. But, but so all the, the most overwhelming thing was simply

that I was suddenly on television. My first time on camera. It was MTV, which was the coolest possible thing at the time. It was my scene partners. If you think, if you break it down, it's a crazy first job. My scene partners were the most famous people in the world who did not know that they were in a scene. And you have one take. And if you break the reality, you have wasted $500,000 of some of Ashley Coucher's money. And if you are boring, you'll be fired, presumably. So like, it was, and you know, I was 24, so I was like, bring it on. You know, it was, I was, um, I was ready for it and it was thrilling but I love pranks so I think that love you know I thought every I thought these were the funniest ideas I'd ever heard you know it must have been such a high to be in the

middle of some of these moments like to be on that higher water at like yeah like just be yes but it was terrifying as well I was like I mean I still have I would wake up in the middle of night with like what I should have said you know like we did a prank on Jamie Presley the actor which was such a funny setup. And like the next night I woke up and I was like, I should have told her she's only successful because of her dad, meaning Elvis. And by the way, that would have been funny.

It's okay. You know, you don't always think of it in the moment, but I would, you know, so that was stressful after the fact. And then one time I was doing Tommy Lee. I had to pretend to be a paparazzi photographer who was getting Tommy Lee hitting a guy in his Hummer. A stuntman jumped in front of the Humvee.

And then I was a photographer laying in wait as part of a scam and trying to shake him down for the photos. And Tommy Lee was and is an intimidating guy. He's had some assault allegations. And the rumor was that he was not in a good mood that day or let's say it's so overminded. You heard that going in.

You're like, just see now. Yeah, he was not in a soldier. Unstable, Matt is feeling more unstable than usual. Yes, and you are going to jump out at him and shake him down for money at the risk of destroying his reputation. And I had brought my ID with me because I had to drive to set. So I just had my driver's license in my pocket. And after the prank, I took the license out of my pocket and it had been crumpled beyond recognition because I was so nervous. I was just crumpling his driver's license.

It's not like a business card. And I had to get a new license. So I was definitely, you know, terrified, but keeping it cool on camera. So the show of the office that you will be talking about until the day you die, for good or for bad, is just a remarkable unicorn, obviously. This is the kind of thing actors would kill to have. I'm curious, like you've talked before,

and all the actors have talked about. And for those that are too young to remember, the context of this is this didn't seem like a no-brainer at the time. This actually seemed like a really, like, dangerous, kind of shitty idea. It was a suicide. A rip-off of, like, the greatest show, one of the greatest sitcoms ever. Not only that, it was the rip-off of one of the greatest sitcoms ever that also was the least likely thing to be popular in America anyway.

Right. You know, so, like, both the critics that we wanted to impress or the comedy elites that we wanted to impress, that we wanted to impress hate. did it. And people who liked friends would be like, what the fuck is this? So like it definitely felt like a suicide mission. But, well, anyway, I'm jumping ahead. Well, no, but I guess my question is when did it go from like, this is a bad idea to, you know what, I think this is going to work out. This is actually clicking. Well, look, the reason I took the job and other people took the job was that Greg Daniel...

First of all, I always felt like so many TV shows are imitating bad TV shows, right? At least we're imitating the best TV show. You know, that's already something. We aspire to be like a great show. Most shows aspired to be mediocre. The show aspired to be great. That was something right there, I thought.

Another is that Greg Daniels was brilliant and humble and knew what we were up against and was going to go for it. And that was, you know, he was a legend already. And, you know, he had created King of the Hill. He had been his only credits, as he once made me realize, not forced me to realize, as I once realized, his only credits were all shows that are still on the air,

King of the Hill, The Simpsons, Saturday Night Live, the office, parks and recreation. Those shows don't go away. And so we knew who Greg was, and he was scared. And that was a good sign that he was scared. And so we wanted to work with him. And then Paul Lieberstein said in season one, we all know this is getting canceled.

Let's just make a show that's so funny that other comedy writers will hire us after they see it for the next show. That's liberating. Yeah, just like let's do what we think is really funny to us. And also I was like, oh, here's a grown-up who's not scared of being canceled. Okay, let's relax and take some risks.

And I think with that pressure off, you know, ironically it's always the lesson you learn right that you know the more personal the more universal so when we really were our our personal selves i remember my script diversity day um steve carrell's i mean we all write them collectively at my script because i was the point person on it so you know um steve carrell's making a video about diversity and paul Lieberstein pitch that michael says if you Abraham lincoln once said if you are a racist i will attack you you with the North, I couldn't believe that such a brilliant, crazy line had come out of a person's mouth. And I, it was so weird. It was so inspired. And I thought, I'm just going to put this in

the script. And I thought, it's hard to tell the difference between a room bit, quote unquote, and a real pitch. And I don't know if that was a room bit or a real pitch, but I was like, this is the kind of show where we put room bits in and Paul was really the compass I felt for for the soul of the office in season one and so you know I put Paul's joke in there and made the cut and some fans quoted it and I thought wow you know it might work

I don't think we would have put that in if we were scared of being canceled right and yet it's that kind that kind of joke obviously is what events eventually set the show apart. Well, and you talk about making, you know, using the personal in this basis, and you well know, and you and Mindy are very sweet about kind of being open to a degree

about your own relationship and minding it on the show. I mean, I guess in the moment, when you think back to those times, was that, were you guys talking about, like, how much we should use of what's going on on the show? Like, do, or is it just sort of like, no, all the other writers were like, just looking at us, like, smiling while,

We were fighting, and they would be like, we should put this on the show. And I didn't really believe them, but, you know, we weren't, who were we to turn down screen time at that point? They're like, yeah, okay. Let's use our up and down relationship for our career. Yeah, if we can finally have a subplot, sure. And, but we didn't get it. We just thought we were, we were thinking, no, the other person is wrong. Like, listen to this argument.

I'm right. and the other writer saw it is like these two are just so fiercely in love and such fierce enemies at the same time. Have you, in the subsequent years, have you had your like Bill Shatner get a life moment where it's sort of like, I need a break. I need a day, I need a week where someone doesn't mention the office to me,

because it would be understandable. I would get it. Anyone would get it. Or how have you rationalized it's, it's omnipresence in your life every single day you're out in the world um well i i rationalize it in terms of respecting it because there was we were writing the episode the fire season two which has a now somewhat famous song ryan started the fire and when that went in the script mike sure said with a laugh

People are going to be singing. Ryan started the fire to you for the rest of your life. And we all laughed because our show was so small. And it was so going to be canceled. It was amazing. We even got those extra six episodes. And the idea that, and it was such a weird joke. Ryan started the fire because he burned of cheesy pita and it's a parody of Billy Joel's.

It was so random. And we all laughed. And prophetic words. Not a week has gone by, probably not a day has gone by if I'm out in public where someone doesn't sing. Ryan started the fire at me. And it would be annoying if I wasn't so conscious that when Mike said that, it was the most preposterous prediction. And it was really a, oh, yeah, wouldn't that be nice? So when they're going to you and you're smiling, the fan doesn't realize why.

you're smiling when you're reacting in that way. You're thinking back to Mike saying that at the moment being like... That's why I'm never too cool for it. And if someone offered me a button to make it stop, I would not press that button because I remember how special that idea was, you know, that that would happen. Okay, so time is flying by. Do you want to get to some other stuff, including your comfort movie pick,

which segues out of what I'm going to bring up, which is an amazing opportunity. You're in one of, I mean, all Tarantino's movies. are amazing. But I have a soft spot for Anglorious Bastards. Talk to me just about, did that come out nowhere? Did you have any relationship with Quentin? Had you hung with him at Soho House? Like, is it not a random phone call? I got an audition and I auditioned and then I got a callback and maybe a second callback, maybe not. But no, it was just like the traditional thing. And I mean, the stakes, you know, it's probably the same as Tommy Lee. I was like,

you know trying to keep my cool but you know it was it was wild and it must be wild when you not only land it but then you read the script and you're like oh i'm in it till the end i'm like i'm not the guy that's like dispatched in the second scene right well way to spoil it josh um 10 year 12 year yeah sorry yeah you spoiled that famous gif brad pit has facial blindness do you think he'd recognize you if you come up to him he has he has recognized me um in random contexts since we started filming. So I don't know if I'm special or if he's underestimating himself,

but I have found him to be very attentive to the people he's worked with. So shockingly, in this comfort movie discussion I've been having the last few years on the podcast, nobody has selected a Tarantino movie. And I mean, I guess I wouldn't pick death proof as a comic movie. Oh, death proof is up there for me. Really? Absolutely.

It's a great movie. Other than once in one time in Hollywood, so I feel like there's different types of favorite books and favorite movies. There's the Desert Island, and actually this was in the episode of The Fire, too. There's the Desert Island, quote unquote, meaning the one that you believe is most representative of your soul, or has meant the most to you, or you think you should, if you were forced to read a book or watch a movie on a Desert Island, that's the one you choose because it's best for your health. And then there's, and I think we all learned in the pandemic, there's the one that when the world is ending and no one's watching, what do you actually watch, right? Or what do you actually read?

And for me, I don't think death proof is as good as some of his other movies, but it is the one that I watch again. And again, and I'm surprised no one picked the Tarantino movie because music is so key. Like I just saw Baslerman's Elvis. And while I think there are plenty of, you know, weaknesses, is in my opinion, I loved it. And I would watch it again and again and again. And I think it's because it's so musical. And Tarrington, the soundtracks are so musical that it feels like the kind of thing. And that Grindhouse soundtrack, that's my favorite of his soundtracks,

which is saying a lot because he's amazing. It is saying a lot. So Once Upon a Time in Hollywood is a very recent pick, 2019. I don't need to tell the folks what it's about. But it's kind of like the ultimate, I actually don't generally love the quote-unquote hangout movie. But this is kind of like his hangout movie in a way.

What, I mean, is it, talk to me a little bit about why this one conjures of comfort for you. Is it hanging with each of the characters? Is it the music? Is it the surprises? What, what is it that strikes you? I think it's a very immersive world. I think the color scheme, the music, the cars, the details, the look of Leo's trailer. It conjures a world that I don't know. You know, the amazing thing about that soundtrack is it's from 1969, and I think I knew one of 30 songs.

1969 is probably the most known year in the history of music to choose all songs. Now, I didn't grow up then, but still, like, I know 1969, baby, I saw Forrest Gump. No, but, like, it's nothing obvious. And so there's one thing about that world, but I also think that Leo's character really breaks my heart. I love him. He's so funny. And he's so overlooked because Brad Pitt has the. more subtle role and is mind-blowing with the dimension he brings to that subtlety.

So absolutely deserves all the praise. But people sleep on that lead performance from Leo, which if you think about it, this is a washed up stuttering, emotional, blubbering, narcissists. There are so many character traits that are not leading man traits, but because he's Leo, we think, He's just Leo being Leo. Not at all. Look carefully. This guy is dancing backwards on the ceiling and we're not even noticing. That's how good he is. He is so funny. And the, you know, the scene where he's like, he's like crying about his career and then he sees Roman Polanski and he's like, I'm making it. I live near Roman Polanski. Like that up and down I relate to so much in Hollywood where. a random cue five seconds after the last one

makes you feel like you're the king of the world and then you're what have you done with your life and career and changes every five seconds based on nothing and that's so stupid and yet I do it

and here's this guy doing it and Brad Pitt's so loving and it's also if you work in Hollywood it's an above the line below an above the line below the line the line romance like i've never seen and these are the two strata of hollywood that make it go hollywood is a combination of theater radio and carnies this is my theory if you look at the history of it which is interesting to me these are different groups that had to combine to make

hollywood and there's a carney side to hollywood and um and they are transient people who might be artistic gifted, might be crooks, might be solid-hearted people, might live with their dog in a trailer in Panorama City. And they do stuff that is not even on the radar. A friend of mine said, if you want to know if someone's a celebrity, ask them to fill out a form. You know, like, I went to a doctor's office and they gave me a form and I'm like, someone didn't fill this out. Like, so many things in Hollywood just hand it to you if you're on the call sheet, you know, and you can become the worst out-of-touch person. And then there's a whole, the backbone of the industry

is like manual labor. And these people are five steps, five inches from each other. And completely different planets. And yet very tied. And it's this movie, you know, Vengeance is Rezae Blue State. This is like the two classes of Hollywood that is like the secret, you know,

one of many terrible secrets of social dynamics in Los Angeles and Hollywood, but you know, it is sort of this hiding in plain sight dynamic and it and by the way. He loves all of it. He loves every shot. All of it.

Yeah, all of it. And Brad Pitt sort of knows the score and he's very Christ-like. He knows the score and chooses to love. Leo's character doesn't know the score, which makes me feel sad for him because he doesn't get to

it just i saw the movie five times in the theater twice more on video i just and and it's the music and it's the camera movement in that scene where you know he's fighting bruce lee and the camera doesn't cut for like seven minutes how do you choreograph this um anyway yeah i just um and then the the lsd cigarette and you know awesome butler is great i don't know it's oh yeah the whole ramp sequence is amazing on its own Um, last thing for you, this is totally random. How close did you come to getting Jack Nicholson in your show? You wrote a script for Jack.

Did you come, do you have me eating? Did you get anywhere with Jack? No, absolutely not. I respect the try. I respect the swing. Yeah. The premise you wrote, you wrote one of your scripts with him in mind. I guess it wasn't one that you actually shot though.

Is that right? Correct, yeah. It's called Fat Man on a Chair and I'll do it someday. But, um, I, look, one of the producers thought, Jack would be right for it and new Jack and it just it still feels like wait was that bullshit like what are you talking about like nobody knows Jack

one day yeah never know um congratulations man oh thank you I'm a fan of this one and I honestly it's a great I feel like I made it just talking to you so thank you oh please stop it vengeance is the film the start of a new aspect he's yes he's a children's author yes he's an app developer

yes he's an actor but now he's officially Some of those things I wouldn't say I am, more things I did. No, but congrats, man. I can only imagine. As a fan of movies, I'm sure to see the written and directed title card must be like a moment. So enjoy the moment and people should check it out now. And thank you for doing what you do. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused.

Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressure. to do this by Josh. I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the LA Times. And I'm Paul Shear, an actor, writer, and director. You might know me from the League, Veep, or my non-eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters. We love movies, and we come at them from different perspectives.

Yeah, like Amy thinks that, you know, Joe Pesci was miscast in Goodfell. And I don't. He's too old. Let's not forget that Paul thinks that dude too is overrated. It is. Anyway, despite this, we come together to host Unspooled, a podcast where we talk about good movies, critical hits. Fan favorites, must-season, and case you miss them. We're talking Parasite the Home Alone.

From Greece to the Dark Night. We've done deep dives on popcorn flicks. We've talked about why Independence Day deserves a second look. And we've talked about horror movies, some that you've never even heard of like Ganges and Hess. So if you love movies like we do, come along. on our cinematic adventure listen to unspooled wherever you get your podcasts and don't forget to hit the follow button