Happy Sad Confused - Bo Burnham

Episode Date: January 6, 2021

Bo Burnham is going to give it to you straight. He's not going to sugarcoat the insanity of the last year or hide his insecurities or anxieties. And that's why we love him. That and his skill as a comedian, filmmaker, and actor. Bo joins Josh in this first episode of the new year for a chat about his latest film, "Promising Young Woman". Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

D.C. high volume, Batman. The Dark Nights definitive DC comic stories adapted directly for audio for the very first time. Fear, I have to make them afraid. He's got a motorcycle. Get after him or have you shot. What do you mean blow up the building? From this moment on,

none of you are safe. New episodes every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now. Today on Happy, Sad Confused, Bo Burnham, from stand-up comedy to becoming a filmmaker with eighth grade to a starring role in promising young woman. Hey, guys, I'm Josh Harowitz.

Welcome to another edition of Happy Sad Confused. Happy New Year, guys. Welcome to 2021. We made it. The darkness is behind us. Maybe some darkness ahead. There's always darkness ahead, but more light than dark. Let's all hope and pray and make it happen.

Think positive thoughts as we begin this new year. We're starting off with a fun one. Beau Burnham, first-time guest on Happy, Said, Confused. You know him for his fantastic comedy, his comedy specials. That's sort of where he made his name and on YouTube. And then, of course, with eighth grade a couple years back, he wrote and directed that fantastic film starring Elsie Fisher. I love that movie.

I got to know, Bo, a little bit on that silly award circuit. he's hard to miss in a crowd, by the way. He's like nine feet tall. And he's like younger than every other awards nominee, so he was easy to gravitate towards in that year. And I was thrilled to catch up with him again, actually twice in the last year because I saw him early in the year at Sundance when Promising Young Woman debuted, caught up with him and Carrie Mulligan, who is the true centerpiece, by the way. She is the promising young woman at the center of that film. But Bo has a sizable, he has the leading, leading male role, so good for him. And anyway, I got a chance to catch up with them about that film.

And that was a real treat because it really was maybe my favorite film of Sundance. And one of, frankly, my favorite films of 2020. I didn't do the top 10 list. Maybe I still will. I'm feeling the peer pressure. We'll see. But it's one of the best films of the last year. A great bit of satire, comedy, black comedy, drama.

It's got a little bit of everything. It is definitely its own beast. Very much. I would think if you're going to compare it to anything, I think of the great Gus Van Sant film to die for. If you remember that film with Nicole Kidman, I don't want to say too much about the premise because it's got a lot of twists and turns. But Carrie Mulligan basically plays a woman who has been wronged and who feels wronged and is out for revenge against men who have taken advantage of her and other women in her life. And yeah, it goes to some dark, unexpected places,

but it is thoroughly entertaining from start to finish. Go in and enjoy everything that promising young woman has to offer, including a great performance from Bo Burnham. Good for Bo, who not only has the chops as a stand-up comedian, clearly, and as a filmmaker, but holds his own against Carrie Mulligan, who may be the best actor working today. So that's quite an achievement for Bo. And I'm thrilled that it gave us an opportunity to catch up after nearly a year apart. And Bo is nothing, if not frank, and honest and funny about what this last year has been for him. It's been difficult for him, like it's been difficult for most, if not all of us. So I always welcome that kind of honesty, especially from somebody as smart and funny as Beau.

So I think you guys are going to enjoy this conversation. It's our first really kicking off 2021 in style. So very happy about that. Other quick things to mention. Stir Crazy. Yes, we've taken a couple weeks off from Stir Crazy on Comedy Central, but fear not. We are back next week. And the guest, I am pleased to say, is the fantastic former guest of Happy Saganfused, Jane Levy.

Currently starring, of course, on Zoe's extraordinary playlist, back for season two on NBC. support that show. It's a great piece of work. And Jane is always fun. And she delivered on this episode of Stir Crazy. That's on next week's episode. Seek it out on Comedy Central's Facebook and YouTube pages. One more thank you. I want to mention we did a special happy, I confused benefit at the end of 2020. It was just for the folks that bought tickets to the Symphony Space event. No, it will not appear as a podcast. And part of that, the reason for that guys, I hope you understand is the whole objective of that was to make some money for some good charities

and we did. We succeeded. So good on you guys and I have to make it special for the folks that came out for that live event. Don't worry. Katrina will be back on the podcast. Of course she will. Of course we'll do silly things. Of course she'll do stir crazy at some point. She is part of the Josh Horowitz's friends and family collective. So don't worry. But for those of you that did come out, 2,000 plus of you for that live event.

What a joy. What a thrilling way to end. 2020 and raise some money for some good causes. So my heartfelt thanks to all of you. I hope you guys enjoyed it as much as I enjoyed hosting it. I guess that's all I want to say, except to say, I hope you guys are staying healthy and safe. I hope things are looking up as we begin this new year. I'm filled with optimism and hope and excitement for all that's to come. And let's start the year off with a great conversation with a great actor and filmmaker and writer. He's one of those multi-hyphenates that I would hate if he wasn't so charming and nice and self-deprecating. Here's my conversation with Bo Burnham.

Beau Burnham, welcome to the happy, sad, confused podcast. We were just saying, we last saw each other in the before time when everything was good. What happened, though? Well, we last saw each other in this sort of happy of the version of that. And it's now we're sad and confused. Yeah, sad and confused. very gentle euphemisms for, I think, what's going on right now. I think you might need to add a few more slashes.

I might have to be happy, sad, confused. Totally fucked up and... Yeah, depersonalized, dead, reborn, dead again. I will take this 40 minutes of distraction with you, though. Hopefully we'll cheer each other up a little bit amidst this hellfire. I'm curious, what was this year supposed to be for you? And what did it turn out to be? well you know what okay this is a good example i was supposed i was supposed to turn 30 and i and i did but i was

gonna say it was bad but they didn't destroy your birthday too did that i was always like i never have birthday i hadn't had a birthday party since i was like 15 and i right people always be like yeah my birthday i was like i'll have it when i'm 30 and we'll all do something and and then it's really sad yeah i i don't I mean, it's silly to talk about, obviously, that all of what's happened in the context of my stupid, like, you know, privileged life. Like, I'm having it better than most other people or most, well, other than the, you know, my chemical predisposition to not be able to experience joy. But that's why we're on the phone together because we share this. Well, I was going to say, I mean, you've been very open in talking about how you've dealt with anxiety over the years. And I'm curious, like, how have you coped in the most collectively.

stressful year in modern history like what have you're yeah it's interesting you know it's been I don't know it's been I think I went through the period that other you know people anxious people are people with whatever mental health issues I know but people had said like well when the world really felt like it was ending I actually felt great because like it's like I'm always worried that the world's going to I'm always worried that things are bad so when things really are bad I kind of have like the sense of calm and I had and I had that a little bit but then it kind of kept going and yeah i mean it's hard for everybody i mean but i take i take solace in the fact that but also i'm sad about the fact that every single person i talk to

seems to be in a very particular crisis like it's and like we're not all in the same crisis like my close like everyone's kind of going through something very specific during this time and like we're kind of all you kind maybe just united by the fact that we're all going through our own thing but it's like it is a deeply like for many people it's an actually is it like it's a it's a time where they're struggling physically or with their health or i mean i i'm not having to struggle economically which is the biggest thing that is affecting most people yeah um but it's also just like a very psychic time it's a very i found it to be very interior psych and that that's tough for me I mean that's just like that's that's not

totally easy to deal with because I'm just like I'm the guy that you know is already kind of shut in in his head and now that I'm like encouraged by the government to be in my own head that feels like it's not the ideal I like it was just even this year I was like you know I need to go out more I need to engage with the world more I need to like be outside and I and I and then so they There's just a kind of a sick irony to all of that. Well, and then there was all the, like, the expectations that different people brought to the year in terms of, like, this is the year to kind of get to the projects I never got

to or, like, self-improve and whatever. And for me, it's like, we're all just trying to survive this year. 20-20, chalk it up as just, like, the year to just make it out alive and hopefully make it out with your loved ones alive. Let's not put this extra, you know, weight on our shoulders to also, like, get to the screenplay you always wanted to write. do great god bless but um this is this is a once in a generation moment well yeah and hopefully like this this this moment really also like kind of breaks down the sort of like puritanical individualism of our

culture of just like that mindset where we're all just trying to make our own thing and we're all just trying to you know better ourselves and better our own careers like that's how we get in a position where this happens, where things go wrong and we realize like, oh, there's no social safety net. There's no sense of community. There's no sense of like we take care of each other. I mean, this moment more than anything, hasn't proved that like what this moment doesn't need right now is more screenplay as it means like, caring about each other. Yeah, more communal.

Yeah, health services and and and providing for people so that, you know, I don't know, it's just like so it's and and also that has happened this year which is nice to see it's like a real i think social awakening towards like you know some sort of common interests no totally totally your dog agrees yes you go beau um so so i'm curious you know going to the more superfluous kind of silly but but important career stuff which is partially what we're here to talk about i mean you know I first started to talk to you a couple of years back when eighth grade was just everywhere. And I'm curious, you know, now you've got promising young woman where you're, you're starring alongside Carrie Mulligan.

At the end of the eighth grade saga, the long road that that was, and it was a glorious kind of road for you, when you put the tucks in the closet for the final time, did you have a clear idea of like what was next, of what you wanted to prioritize, what you wanted to be, what you wanted to pursue? No, no, no, not really. And I've, I've always kind of had like a weird, like a weird, just kind of impulse to like start all over all the time. I even had kind of convinced myself like after anything, I'm like, okay, I'm a filmmaker now. You know what I mean?

And then I kind of go like, ah, I don't know, maybe I'm not. I don't really quite know. I just get not bored. That sounds like, that sounds like fucking so annoying. But I just get kind of antsy or like, I get very. engaged by doing new things that's like that is what I get excited by is trying something that I haven't really done so I didn't quite know you know I had signed up to like write these songs for the Sesame Street movie because it felt like oh that's something that's like I'd really have to

challenge myself I haven't done that and then the idea of acting was really exciting because like I haven't really to really just like give myself to someone else's vision like Emerald's vision and just try to act but um eighth grade was also like very very special and for me and is like I'm definitely not someone that's like I mean it would have been great I had like you know all this momentum that's like in the in the industry doesn't exist for very long and in you know independent film like yeah where I could have you know got another movie going and attached stars or who cares but like it just felt like no that movie worked because it really it kind of was a story I felt like I just absolutely had to tell and there's kind of a

painful part of the creative process for me where it's like you kind of just have to be patient and like you for me I have to wait until it's like an idea that is so so important to me and so so meaningful to me that I will take a year and a half or two years to to make it you know as opposed to you know like after eighth grade people wanted me to do that oh direct this thing with these kids or whatever it's like yeah you you suddenly get into kind of like that that every two year directing maybe someone else's material that sure you connect with on some level but that's just that's a different path and maybe maybe your path is once every five or six years when the muse strikes you get the the the project that you that you feel so passionate about you can't do anything else and

maybe yeah and i and i don't and i don't really feel like some great functional director i probably am not like a great hired got like i think like the re if if eighth grade worked the reason it worked was because of how invested I was in it and passionately about it. I passionate about it I was. So it's like, and it's just kind of the only way I can work. It's like the only way I can really work or not really the only way, but like it's like this weird thing with career stuff where it's like you're always looking for you're always trying to build and get bigger and oh, make a bigger thing or make it.

And it's like, and I could try to be like, okay, I made it. I mean, eighth grade was a small move, very small budget. And it's like, oh, I could try to make a bigger one next. And it's like, but at a certain point, I have to look around and go like, wait, I'm actually, I've kind of arrived at the place where I wanted to be at, which is I can kind of do, I can kind of in theory do what I want next. So let's just let's just do that as opposed to, I don't know, still trying to build the moment. Like the idea of, what are you building towards when like you've already made something that you personally love and others love, like that's the aspiration. If you can make five more, if you can make one more of those, if you don't make another one of those, that's great. Like, I mean, you've already kind of. Yeah. Yeah, that's nice. Yeah. And I really, I genuinely, I find like momentum, career momentum to be stifling. I like don't actually like it. And like I think I best, I best operate from a place of like having something to prove. That's what I always kind of want to feel like. Like when I made all my specials, even when I was doing standup, it was like, oh my God, I was so embarrassed by the material I made when I was 16. So I had to make it when I was 19. And then when I was 23, I was like, I'm so embarrassed by my, oh my God, that comedy was so bad when I was 19. And then when eighth grade came, I was. around. It was like, all right, everyone knows me as this stupid, like, musical YouTube guy. Or, like, so, like, I have to make this movie to, like, be substantial. And then even then that worked. And it's like, okay. So it's just I'm much, I think I'm much better from a, yeah, I don't

really want to be like the, I don't really want to be like an established guy or anything. I don't, I don't think that. I'd work well from there. Well, yeah. And the next kind of mountains to climb, my guess and challenge was to establish yourself more in the acting space. And, you know, to your credit, I mean, promising young woman is truly one of, if not my favorite movies of the year. And you more than hold your own against arguably the best, you know, actor in the business, Carrie Muller. Oh, that's nice.

Well, it's funny because, you know, it's so funny. So with acting, I really am not, I mean, I'm not trying to become anything. You know, I don't like that what's nice is that I'm like, I'm less like personally invested in acting. so it can just be kind of, I can kind of engage with it in a slightly fun and more confident way than the other stuff because it isn't as loaded with me. Like, honestly, like, if I did this movie and, you know, everyone just thought, like, Jesus, what the hell is he doing on screen?

Like, it would have been embarrassing, but it would have been like, all right, okay, I'll go do something else, you know what I mean? So it's like, I'm lucky to not have to, you know, fully rely on my acting career as my future. Because I don't think I would have one if that was my future. But I can get a worse feeling to feel like you don't want to be in a scene and disappoint the director. Exactly. So, I mean, did you get to a place pretty early on where you felt like you had a place at the table and could hold your own against Carrie and not disappoint yourself and others? Well, not really, no.

I mean, well, the good thing is at least the scenes kind of integrated that feeling pretty easily because the scenes are just about like me trying to constantly impress her and being worried that I'm not impressing her. so like I could kind of like channel all of what was actually going through my head into the scenes. But it was, no, it was very funny just though to go from like having directed a bunch of actors, you know, work with them to then being an actor and being like, oh my God, I am a needy actor that needs to like be quick. Like I was just like I could, I never was on the set thinking of myself as a director. I was never thinking of anything other than thinking like, oh my God, if I was dealing with myself and like if I had an actor, that was being like I'm being, I'd be like, dude, just shut up and do it and, you know, it's just like, like, so were you asking after a take? Like, was that good? Or are you? No, no, it's just like, no, I'm just like, in my own head. And it's just like funny to be like, okay, like this gives me at least empathy for

actors that go crazy. Like, I totally, totally get why actors are insane. Like, of course, you know, big movies are like, yeah, they're overpaid, they're over anything. But it's like, there is something like psychically violating and insane about being in front of the camera. It's just like the eye of God and the devil staring at you, like immortalizing you and taking your soul. It's just like, it's just naked. And a film can't just, it's naked in a way that, you know, like if you make a film, it's like, oh, they didn't like my film.

Okay. But if like when people don't like your acting, it's like they didn't like your face and kind of just how you were, which is like, that's kind of brutal. The ultimate rejection. Not to mention you had some challenging stuff in this. You had to do the artful dance of montage acting. Oh, my, yeah, exactly. It's just real Eisenstein shit.

Has Paris Holden Stars Are Blind gotten a bump yet on the charts? Do we know? I hope so. I mean, I hope we get like a vinyl, like, re-release or something. But I think it's a pretty, I always said like it's like the lyric like stars are blind. It's like some chilling like T.S. Eliot shit. Like it really, it really is like, wow. And I think the movie kind of reclaims that aesthetic, kind of reclaims like,

yeah, this like aesthetic that people dismiss as girly and thin and decorative is actually kind of meaningful and deep if you actually listen to it. I mean, a lot of that kind of pop music when you actually listen to the lyrics, you're like, oh, this is actually kind of more deep and stark than I thought it was. The film, I mean, I guess dating back to Sundance when it first screened and as more people have seen it, I wouldn't say it's like polarizing, but certainly there have been some along some gender lines some differences of how

people are interpreting it. To me, it feels a little silly. It's like if you're a dude in 2020 and you don't recognize that our gender has performed rampant toxicity for the beginning of time, then maybe you need a reality check. Yeah, well, I mean, if it wasn't, but yeah, but if

the film wasn't divisive, I think it wouldn't be that it just means it's not actually engaging with what's going on. Because like what's going on is divisive. So I would hope that, you know, it's tapping into that conversation. Does the material, reading a script, performing this kind of material, make you kind of reassess your own toxicity, your own?

And we've all, you know, been there to various degrees. Well, definitely, definitely. I mean, and that was, yeah, definitely. And it's, I think the important thing the movie does is, like, cast a very wide net in terms of, like, showing the different levels of culpability and, like, how actually gradient it is, that it really fades all the way to the littlest possible. thing, that it isn't like some clear line in the sand where these guys are bad and these guys are good. And like, if you self-identify as a good guy, you're probably the first one that

should self-examine. Right. Because, like, you're the one that seems, that thinks you're above criticism. Um, so yeah, I mean, it's like, it did. And like, and, and, like, there were things in the script with the other guys that, like, resonated with me. I was like, oh, my God. Like, well, like, recognizing myself. Like, Christopher Mintzblotz, like, talking about consider the lobster. I'm like, oh, Jesus. You know what I mean? I mean, like, I can, like, totally identify with all of that. And that's what's fun and funny about the script, too, is that it, like, it really does kind of, I think,

give an accurate portrayal of the, it's not just certain type of men. It's not like, it's the way men are when they're trying to impress women. That's what's funny is that it's not like, it's like, it really exposes, like, the performance of, like, heterosexual male courtship as, as very ridiculous and like goofy and funny until it's not until it's all of us until it's very not so yeah I mean yes it's it's also interesting to me that like you know you know most of the men in this film are reckoning or being forced to reckon with these kind of you know mistakes of various degrees in their past and not to equate your your life because certainly you haven't done

the things that the guys in this one have done, but you've been very open and even in this in this conversation of sort of like reckoning with the early material of your career. And like from the beginning, like going back, like I listened back to your like Mark Maron conversation, which was like you were like 21 or something at the time. Even then you were apologizing for stuff like at 17. So it's like that's your DNA. This is like right up your alley. Yeah. Oh totally. Yeah. I mean it just It's, yeah, just sort of, well, it was kind of just a product of the way I started, which is just like, you know, I started at 16, 16, 19, 21, 25, you know, so it's like this conversation that's really kind of peaked these last couple years about like whatever it means, whatever you call it cancellation, whatever, whatever, accountability, whatever that is. Like, I think it's the thing that younger people my age and younger really have been wrestling with for a while, which is that because like our lives and like the, the roadmap to the the person we currently are is just accessible online. And it's like, and it's like an embarrassing roadmap for most of us.

I know for me, it really is. Like, it, like, I wish I could have some like spotless uvra that just was just like totally self-contained and like told a coherent, you know, moral story. But it just isn't. I mean, I was like an 17 year old kid in 2007 trying to be funny at like the peak of like family guy. You know what I mean? Like it's just like pretty embarrassing shit.

And not to mention the complication. that that's that's what earned you fame that's what got you where you were that material exactly exactly is that it actually worked but i also i always knew even when i was young even when i was 16 i knew that like i'm not as good as i can be like the whole like i know i'm going to be better at this so even though this is working like i have to get better like i want to get i'm still a i don't know what i'm really doing yet and um that's sort of been like my yeah my whole life has sort of just been like creatively like putting stuff out to be like no no sorry sorry for everything I said before actually I mean this sorry for everything actually I mean that and it's like

the hope is that we can allow for that change one but that also it doesn't but also that when people ask for that change people don't get so defensive because it's like comedians especially I think it happens with older comedians they're just so defensive about this stuff and like so a defense about re-examining their previous work. And it's just like, I mean, like things are changing. In comedy ages like milk, it just does. It just like, like you watch like a comedy from the 90s. You're like, Jesus Christ.

Like you go like, wow, I did not realize how actually insane some of this was. Should I not go back and watch your work in Hall Pass? Is that what you're saying? I don't remember. I might have been good than that. I think I just, I was just, I was a bartender. 18 like I think I gave a shot to Owen Wilson that's what I did but yeah I never really thought about that in terms of that this movie kind of deals with that too but yeah it is it is you're right

it is about something even bigger than just the topic of sexual assault but just like the way in which we all sort of contend with our our past yeah and it's going to get increasingly difficult going forward just because now as we go forward just like what's going to happen in 30 years when the people running for president we have everything they've said since they were 15 or truly you know you mean it's like we're going to have to figure out how to how to move forward i i have a small confession to make to bow the first time i i kind of encountered your work or new of you like uh you know part of my gig for many years has been working for mtv for a long long while and you had an mtv show back in the day hell yeah and and i had

the instinctual you know again maybe self-hating kind of reaction of hating kind of hating that had an MTV show because I can't respect anybody that actually works for MTV. And I say that's somebody that works for MTV. Did you have the same kind of, I mean, I don't know, what was your experience at MTV like? Because that was kind of a, again, kind of a self-reflexive show dealing with what some of the issues that you were dealing with. Did you feel like you were able to kind of create what you wanted, or were you put through the meat grinder? What was your? Well, it was part of it was like, hey, I'm going to go into like, you know, pardon the term.

I mean, it's a whole different regime, so no one will care. But I was like, I'm going to go into the belly of the beast and talk about all these issues about, like, kids in the relationship to fame, my age, people my age, the relationship to attention and fame. And then I got in and I was like, oh, shit, I'm in the belly of the beast. What am I doing it here? Like, wow, it stinks. But, you know, we had some nice executives that actually really did enjoy and really understood

the show. And what stuck is that there was just a complete regime change when we finished the show. and just knew people came in and that thing just happened where they didn't really understand the show it wasn't theirs and so they kind of just dumped it on a Saturday and that's like that's fine

I mean it was fine like I really hold no animosity towards anyone there and they're just doing their job and you know it's like there's no criticism I have of MTV that doesn't apply to basically every form of media in existence

exactly the real unique about MTV in that regard yeah oh my God like the real the damage being done to all of us by just like media and I just mean I don't mean like media like I'm some like you know maga person talking about like I mean every form of media I mean like the every picture on the wall every advertisement in the street just like this thing that we've all just been at least I have

been marinating in for 30 years of my life just images in videos and pictures it's just like the totality of that damage that is being done just to like the psychic just it's just a just like my subjective experience of the world that I'm just sort of kind of waking to that is I think what all my stuff is kind of yeah trying to see from different angles is like what what is this doing to us and it and it and it all kind of becomes inward facing because it's of course I'm making media about sort of my fraught relationship with it so that's that's sort of um and I think promising a woman is about it in some ways because promising a woman really does play with this idea of like movie tropes of like what a moot like what have movies done in their representation of

hookups or in the representation of like a comedy where a drunk girl stumbles out of a bar or a comedy where guys wake up to a dead stripper you know like that like all like the movie really examines like which i believe firmly that like the representation of things in film really do inform the way they play out in real life that the first first time I went to a college party, I thought, oh, man, this is like animal house. You know what I mean? So the things that were funny in that movie, I then think are permissible in that frat house. Like, oh, that guy's not being an asshole to that girl.

He's being John Belushi. He's being fun. Right. Let's go back to the good old days before media saturation turned all of our minds and souls into toxic wastelands. We're talking about the Gutenberg press. to protect about back in the 15th century. Yeah, exactly.

Just pre-Gudenberg, that's what it were. I'm so in it that I was thinking Steve Gutenberg for at first, so I got really good. That's hilarious, Steve. Before police academy? There was something before then. But I did ask you for a comfort movie because I've been asking most of my guests

for this in crazy times. And I'm just curious, before we get to your selection, tell me sort of like where your movie these sensibilities were as a kid? What were your, who were your guys, who were your girls? Who were you fascinated by? What were you the poster? Honestly, like, I was not, I was not like raised.

My father just watched Conair and Armageddon every day, like genuinely. So that's like sort of, that's sort of the cultural atmosphere that I was raised in. So it was like a lot of like, I mean, it was like genuine, like dumb and dumber. I mean, like Jim Carrey, like, oh, you know, me, I love Jim Carrey as a kid. I love Sandler So it's just like a lot of comedies Tommy Boy I mean that's like if I'm being real on it Like that's that's right as a kid

It wasn't until I saw like I think like one floor of the cuckoo's nest Was the first movie I saw that made me go like Whoa whoa whoa like what is this thing With these people acting like this And it like it felt so alive in a way That was just like stunning to me

But as a kid it was very I just think very very basic Like I loved like men in black and independence. Like, I love Will Smith. I thought he was the coolest person in the world. And I think, I cherish that. I cherish the fact that, like, I grew up just with very, I think, very basic normal sort of cultural interests.

Because, like, even comedy, like stand-up, I like stand-up. I like stand-up comedy as a form because it is very, it's meant to be like a, like, a medium of the people. You know what I mean, really? It's meant to, like, communicate to, like, real people. That's like, I do want to do that. want to like, you know, I'm not just trying to make like, you know, indecifable stuff for like 12 really cool people. You're not doing New Yorker cartoons necessarily. Yeah. And no, and it's not

because like, I mean, I wish I could do. I mean, I also, I might just, I don't think I'm like skilled or smart enough to do that. But it's like I enjoy, yeah, part of me. Like, I want to make stuff that my brother loves and my sister loves and, you know, I really value my kind of connection to like, yeah, just like normal sort of cultural interests. The British office is probably the most formative actual thing for me in some ways. Right. You know, it's a TV show. Like, I know people overstate that, but I watch that like once a year.

And that's probably, that probably had like the biggest effect on even eighth grade was that movie, just that, that style of performance. That sort of, this, the thing that's gotten lost, I think, and all the adaptations, of the British office and all of its forms in America and not just the office but every form is just like yeah just the particular relationship

of people to the way a camera changes a room really specifically the way a camera changes people which is like that to me is like one of the central questions that we have to and the more we've forgotten about cameras and rooms

the more we need to examine that question the more normalized they've become it also like the film you chose Rebels in discomfort. Yeah, yeah, in the best possible way. So on the movie side, you didn't go with one flew over the cuckoo's nest, as comforting as Milos Foreman's work can be. You went with one of Christopher Guest's best.

What was your pick? I went with Best in Show, which is so funny. I didn't even realize until this conversation that, like, oh, right, like Jennifer Coolidge is in promising a woman. Like, I didn't even think of the connection of, because I mean, Jennifer's like, like absolutely one of the highlights that movie and one of the highlights

of the highlights, probably, I think she's brilliant in it. But like, yeah, well, it's funny. Best and Show is similar to One Flow the Cuckus Nest in just being like as robust and impenetrable an ensemble as is like possible.

Right. Like just actually how across the board incredible everyone is. And it is like, yeah, just truly kind of mind-blowing. Do you remember when or how you first kind of saw it or became obsessed with that? So I first saw it up in like my grandmother's like little,

she lives in like a little cabin in Maine. I'm from Massachusetts. So my family, my mother's side of the family is up in Maine. And I went up there. I must have been, it must have been around when it came out. So I was like 10 or 11.

Right. And there was a VHS of it. And me and my cousin watched it. And I just thought I just never, ever seen anything. funny in my entire life and there's like there's it's like with best and show like it was similar when i watched the british office of waking up to that but like there there are there are sort of levels of the levels of that comedy that you kind of only get a repeated viewing like obviously the

first time you watch it you're you're it's like fred willard is what you're really really because he's just like it's also unbelievable of of like dramatically like how late into that film he shows up how late he to show up that late into a film that is already that good and somehow steal the movie is is so impressive um but yeah i mean i just watched it really recently like parker posy is is unbelievable katherine o'hara is unbelievable obviously obviously eugene levy and just recently i was really particularly marveling when i saw it the reason i had katherine o'hara of her in that film amazing yeah she's across the board just so wonderful i'm so glad i haven't watched shitts creek but i'm i'm it's like really amazing to see her kind of and eugene kind of really get like a rousing cultural response like the the overdue like totally coronation culturally that they that they deserve because they are just you know i mean like iconic all-time great comedic performers that and like And that's like a thing that's really dying out.

Like, we don't have those performance anymore. We don't have. And it's another thing. Like, we don't have comedy, really substantial, like, straight up comedies anymore. And this is the conversation I have with everybody all the time. Like, everything's a dromedy. Even eighth grade, people were like, I'm like, eighth grade's not a comedy. Like, if I, like, I mean, it's funny.

There's funny moments. But like, trust me, if I try to make a funny movie, it'll be funnier than eighth grade. It'll be funny. And, like, eighth grade, like, I won't, if I try to make a funny movie, It's not going to, like, be that serious as I was like. It's true that there aren't the Christopher Guest movies. Even the Farley brothers back in the day, Mel Brooks. I mean, even, even McKay's stuff of like, stepbrothers.

We lost McKay now. McKay's gone to dramedy. I love his new stuff. But, like, he, that's a guy that can work on that level just of absurdity that is just genius. I know. And you know what? And it's why it's honestly like, you know, like, I'm saying Sanders holding it down. And like you watch those family movies.

It's like, you know what? These movies are trying to be funny. They are just trying to be funny. And like, I watched Hubey Halloween and I was laughing. I was really laughing. I was like, it's just like, it's so refreshing to see something that is really just trying to make you laugh. Right. Because like, rather than like also trying to do all this other stuff, it's like, gosh.

And that's what I mean, like best in show is just so. And it's amazing. because you can also, it can also be read politically, it can be read as this like hilarious indictment of just like brain dead white people that are so like insulated. Like from the like pain of the world that they're just like worried about competing their own like purebred dogs.

It's like it is so all there's all, it is like biting and smart in a way that it never has to stay. But it's like it is such a, just a breezy, funny comfort. And it's movies like that with that type of performance that is like kind of just existing on the edge of spontaneous and improvised that I feel like I can watch multiple times because there's just so much subtlety to enjoy it.

You know, a pick that I was almost going to say, am I just talking? No, no, this is good. I almost wanted, it was hilariously, I wanted to almost put, let them all talk as my comfort pick, even though it came out two weeks ago. Because it's like the first movie that I've watched, like I watched it twice in like a day,

and I haven't done that in a long, long time. And that movie similar is just like there's a certain warmth to a type of performance for me that is spontaneous, that feels spontaneous. It's something I really tried to get an eighth grade where it's like it's a type of performance. You can never get twice. You can never get.

that type of line read twice and it's just like it's on the edge of falling apart at any moment that is just like really beautiful to me because the more the more the more the more the more the more the more we have cameras in our face 24-7 the more everyone's on instagram or Twitter or ticker so trying to present themselves the more like it's like TikTok like when you see TikTok and you realize like oh the stuff that goes viral there are these like weird human moments that kids captured, like they captured their, their mother, like, tripping and spilling a dinner all over the place or, like, like, those moments that go viral on Instagram and Twitter and TikTok, which are these, like, little, because the fact that everyone's filming stuff all the time,

they capture these little human moments that could never have happened of, like, I don't know, some raccoons standing on the porch, like knocking on the glass or something. It's like, right. Well, the funny thing you mentioned, I mean, for Let them All Talk, which is, coincidentally, also on HBO Max guys. You're selling HBO Max subscriptions today, Bo. Best and shows on there too. Oh, yeah. Hell yeah. But they both were approached in a similar way

and that they both are very heavily improvised films. I mean, Best and Show infamously, the story is that there's the 16 page kind of outline for that film. Soderberg was actually just on the podcast. I was talking to him about let them all talk as well. And similarly,

he had an outline essentially and had a direction for his act. You know, as you well know, having been even a part of the Apatow world, like there's that been that push and pull in the last 15, 20 years between like improv and script and like maybe leaning maybe too heavily on improv when you. Well, that's the thing is, well, it's a certain type of improv. I mean, it's leave to maybe lean too heavily. It's just I don't like directionless improv where it feels like you're riffing trying to find like a joke rather than like let them all talk. They are always riffing in character on dynamic. story exactly yeah exactly the story becomes like the really subtextual relationship between people where one is more successful or has more money or is better off or like this how the subtext of people's relationships plays in the stuff that you would never think to write there's so many moments and let them all talk that are like these human counterintuitive moments that you would

never ever write in a script because it wouldn't read write but then when someone does it it's like it's like that incredible moment in the beginning and let them all talk when the first scene of Lucas Hedges and he's at the billiard days he's playing pool with his friends and he does like a weird like he does like a scream to his friends

that like it may have been Lucas just like screwing up a line or just like but it's just it's like that just absolutely like that type of like lightning moment that only can happen spontaneously and I wish that like the word improv wasn't such a dirty word

because I feel like people say that they say a movie's improv and then they feel like oh, well, it's nothing. And like, I feel like the actors in Let Them All Talk are not getting credit because people think they're acting or they're improving so it's easy. And it's like, no, it's not like that.

It's way more difficult than that to be open and human in that way on screen. So I wish that performances that used improv were given more credit. And it's not like Merrill Streep improvised her way onto a boat. It wasn't she was like, hey, let's go to that cruise. ship and they were like, okay, I guess we're doing it.

Everyone follow Merrill. But yeah, it's like, I just think, yeah. So it's like, I almost wish they didn't tell everyone it was improvised because I feel like people would have given the performances way more. Right. Wouldn't have given them their due if they didn't, you know, get clouded by that dirty word. Where are you at right now in terms of your attitude about performing, whether it's acting or stand up?

Is stand up even in your mind at all? Or to you, is that a closed chapter in your life? Um, no, it's not closed. Um, I mean, well, there's the logistic closing to it. Well, sure. For sure. But, um, no, I mean, I'm open to it. Um, I mean, it's all about just for me, like, it's motivated by wanting to say something and then like, where's the best place to say this? Right. Um, um, and there certainly is, you know, something that I was maybe more, uh, terrified of. Um, um, um, and there certainly is, you know, something that I was maybe more, uh, terrified of. of now that it's been, now that it's really been taken away for me has become, you know, maybe appealing again. But yeah, it's difficult. I don't know. It's a strange time and, you know,

a strange way to engage with the world. It's also, it's very tough to offer, when it feels just like the world is just drowning in opinion and drowning in commentary to feel like you're gonna be additive when, when it feels like, the most additive thing would actually be subtracting from it in some sort of way. Well, it does feel like, frankly, like since eighth grade, like you're not really on social media at all. It's like, you know, I search deadline.

It's not like there are like four different Bo Burnham stories. You're kind of laying low and doing your thing. And there's nothing wrong with that except it's just like it's not the norm in the industry where people sometimes I kind of feel this impulse to be seen constantly to be, you know, even in a year where no one's actually out. and about they're finding ways to TikTok or Instagram or make themselves feel relevant. And it's clearly, to your credit, I don't think you have that inner, you know, thirst. Yeah, well, no, I might probably,

I think I, I mean, I'm probably, I have thirst. I mean, I'm definitely a thirsty, but it's just like, I mean, I've also, I started too young, so I've, I've had, I've got some of that out of your system a little earlier than most. Or not even that. It's just that I've been around too long. I realized that, like, I've been around too long for half of my life now in some way. And I realize that, like, I would understand anyone at any point getting tired of me.

So I feel like I am only, I really just that I only want to engage with the world when I have something to really put out there. Like, I really think we need to, like, talk more about, like, our cultural emissions, not just our physical emissions. And it's like, I'm not really going to, you're only going to hear from me when I have something that I've really, really worked very hard on and think is worthy of your attention. I mean, the thing that I just think is really, really strange when I see like comedians or whatever, it's like just like on Twitter commenting on every single thing that happens every day. And then it's like, and then you want to put out a special or then you want to put out a movie. It's like, well, who cares? Like, it's just like, who, who cares? I've, I've been hearing from you this entire time.

And, like, it's strange. It's strange. It's also like, I really think the only way to, for me to make stuff is in silence. You know, I can't, like, I have to. You don't need everybody as a sounding board, everybody weighing in on your, your Sesame Street development deal. Yeah, exactly. Or just going like, trying out an idea here, trying. I mean, I get the impulse. I get the impulse. It's just, it's, I don't know. I also think at a certain age, it's like, all right, guys, like, cool off. We're like, we're too old to be doing this. Like, let the kids have the internet now. Like, they should be the ones, like, making all the stuff. I think, like, at a certain point, I just feel like, nah, I'm getting to the age where it's just like, no, I work and I present stuff. I'm not like out there. you know,

spinning around every day. Well, it must be a relief in some ways having turned 30 that like as somebody that's been like the narrative of your life has always been about

how young he was, how young he is. Yeah, exactly. You're a legit adult. Like, yeah, exactly. And it's over.

Yeah, it's like, exactly. It's like, it's like, it's not impressive anymore. Like so it's like, no,

no, no, but I mean it's like, it is, it is. It's like a total relief. It's just be like, okay,

now I can just. And I've always wanted to do that. I mean, that's what I actually want to do. I'd rather just be the guy that pops up every two years and releases something. And also, like, I am genuinely very happy with my level of recognition, which is very minimal and would not want any more of it. Like, I don't want to be any more known than I am, which I know is very stupid as I'm, like, promoting a film that I'm in. But, like, I just mean, like, that is not something I need to, I feel like I've built enough

whatever that I can like justify making my next thing and that's all I really care about. It's just the ability to make things. And genuinely I yeah, it's just like what what does engaging with the cult what does engaging on Twitter all that stuff do other than just like I don't know. I don't know what it does for me. Well it also makes me sick to my stomach. Like, if I go on Twitter, I just, I like, I just, it makes me want to, yeah. Well, well, you're nothing, if not an engaging set of paradoxes, uh, Bo Burnham. Uh, that's part of why I always enjoy chatting with you. I appreciate it.

And it's also, it's important for me to like, I want to kind of, in the corniest way, give like a roadmap to, a potential version of a roadmap to younger people. Right. Going up. Because I would go like, man, if I was young trying to make stuff. I would be so confused. And I wanted to help people like, you know, it's not just about self-promotion. It isn't just about having to be out there all the time selling yourself.

You know, like you also can take the time to just work and not worry about just, I don't know. I wouldn't know how to how to start now. I feel very guilt. I feel bad for people coming up now. And I, yeah. Well, in that case, then I'm happy to say that maybe it'll, be two years before we catch up again. You can you can suffer and create your art in silence.

It'll be the horrors of Twitter like I do because I'm a fool. And but I do look forward to. No, but the thing is truly that you're doing the right thing. I mean, it's like there should be people like, there should be commentators. There should be that. It's just like, it's just like it's not everyone's job to do your job. That's my point. It's like for a particular type of people that do your job.

It shouldn't be the thing everyone does. Right. Fair enough. Fair enough. Well, happy to say that a promising young woman has brought us together, not once but twice in this insane year. Congratulations on it, man. Honestly, it is one of the best films I've seen in quite some time, and you're excellent in it. And I hope everybody checks it out. And I hope we can keep talking as the years go by is, you know, I'm excited. I love your career in that, you know, as you openly have said throughout, like, you're not going to be in stasis, certainly. You're always going to be mixing it up and trying stuff. And that's an exciting, an exciting path to be on. So thanks for your time. Dude, I appreciate it. Thanks, Josh. I hope you talk soon. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh. Goodbye, Summer Movies, Hello, Fall. I'm Anthony Devaney. I'm his twin brother, James. We host Raiders of the Lost Podcast, the Ultimate Movie Podcast, and we are ecstatic to break down late summer and early fall releases. We have Leonardo DiCaprio leading a revolution in one battle after another,

Timothy Salome playing power ping pong in Marty Supreme. Let's not forget Emma Stone and Jorgos Lanthamos' Bougonia. Dwayne Johnson, he's coming for that Oscar in The Smashing Machine, Spike Lee and Denzel teaming up again, plus Daniel DeLuis' return from retirement. There will be plenty of blockbusters to chat about, too. Tron Aries looks exceptional, plus Mortal Kombat 2, and Edgar writes, The Running Man, starring Glenn Powell. Search for Raiders of the Lost podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube.