Happy Sad Confused - Brendan Gleeson

Episode Date: August 8, 2018

You don't have to have the last name Gleeson to be a great actor but it certainly doesn't seem to hurt. If you're a "Happy Sad Confused" listener you already know Domhnall but today it's time to recognize the accomplishments of dear old dad, Brendan. And there's a lot to recognize.  Brendan only became a feature film actor in his mid 30s but he's made up for lost time ever since, working with the likes of Scorsese, Martin and John Michael McDonagh, Danny Boyle, John Boorman, Neil Jordan, and countless other notables. In this chat with Josh, he talks about what he needed to learn about film acting when he made the leap, embracing the magical world of Harry Potter, and at long last working for the Coen brothers in the upcoming "The Ballad of Buster Scruggs". Plus, Gleeson talks about making the plunge into television for Stephen King and David E. Kelly in the series, "Mr. Mercedes". The 2nd season premieres August 22nd on the Audience Network. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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D.C. high volume, Batman. The Dark Knight's definitive DC comic stories adapted directly for audio for the very first time. Fear, I have to make them afraid. He's got a motorcycle. Get after him or have you shot. What do you mean blow up the building? From this moment on,

none of you are safe. New episodes every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts. Today on Happy Second Fused, Brendan Gleason tackles the works of Stephen King and David E. Kelly with his television show, Mr. Mercedes. Hey guys, I'm Josh Horowitz. Welcome to my podcast. Welcome to the big show.

Welcome to a lovely conversation, a thoughtful conversation, and a fun conversation with the great Brendan Gleason. History is made on this episode. I said of happy, say I confused, yes, our second Gleason on the podcast. Donald has been on the show, I think at least twice. I'm sure he'll be on again soon. I just saw actually a new film of his. I can't talk about it yet, the little stranger, but more to come on that one. And we had dear old dad on for the first time on the podcast today, and he was a delight. He is an actor's actor. He is such a talent. I can't even tell you how much respect I have for this guy. One of those actors that great film, clearly gravitate towards. I mean, if you look at his filmography, and here's the startling thing about Brendan Gleason, he only started acting in film at the age of 34. He kind of lived a life before that. He was a teacher in Dublin. He was working on the stage in Dublin, and then he went full force into film and has not looked back ever since. And I mean, just looking at my notes here to look at some of the filmmakers he's worked with, you know, starting off with Jim Sheridan,

but then Ron Howard, Mel Gibson, Neil Jordan, John Borman, Martin McDonough, Stephen Spielberg, Martin Scorsese, Danny Boyle, Anthony McGill, it goes on. Ridley Scott, it goes on and on and on and on, not to mention his work in the Harry Potter films. He has just a stellar filmography, and I just love the way he talks about craft and acting and his passion for it in this conversation. I think you will very much enjoy it. This is one of those, like, great capital A actor chats on Happy Sack Confused. Not to mention, he doesn't take it all too seriously. He's got a positively amazing laugh that will maybe shatter your eardrums, so be prepared. But it's contagious and wonderful.

And just a delight. So anyway, I think you guys will enjoy this conversation with the great Brendan Gleason. As I said, his new show, it's not a new show. It's the new season. should say, second season of Mr. Mercedes starts on the audience network on August 22nd. And it is from the mind. It's based on three books by Stephen King, not supernatural base. It's actually Brendan Gleason plays like an ex-cop who's kind of taunted by a mass murderer.

And it's got a great ensemble, Jack Houston's in the second season, Holland Taylor, a really cool show. And it's showrun, it's showruner. I think the two minds like kind of running the show are David. Kelly, who's just a legend in the business, of course, and Jack Bender, who you might not know, but has directed for Lost and Game of Thrones, and he's just done a ton of stuff. So some real talents behind the scenes of Mr. Mercedes. So catch up, if you can, audience network is where you can find it. Not much more to say on this preamble to the big show, except to say, here's my recommendation of the week. If you are so lucky to be in a city where Black Klansman

is opening this Friday, I heartily endorse this one. It is one of the best films of the year. It is from Spike Lee. Certainly, Spike's probably best film in a long while. I would need to look at the filmography to think back to what the last kind of great Spike Lee film was. This is a special one. It is based on a true story about an African American police officer who infiltrated the KKK. And it is surprisingly, for a weighty subject, it's also like an easy kind of a watch. It's actually kind of, it sounds insane to say, kind of funny at times. It's a fascinating story. It's got a great ensemble. It's led by John David Washington, who is, yes, Denzel Washington's son, who's fantastic in the film. Also has Tofer Grace,

one of the early guests on Happy Second Feud, very happy for Tofer because he's fantastic in the film and he plays, it's a tough part. He plays David Duke of all people. He's getting great notices for it. So anyway, Black Klansman, you're probably starting. to hear about it now. You'll hear about it the rest of the summer and into the fall because it's a really great film and I think it will be hopefully factor into the awards conversations going into next year because it's certainly one of my favorites of the year and certainly feels relevant and potent for these times. So that's my recommendation of the week. But my recommendation right now is you sit where you are or continue on the treadmill where you are or

Keep driving where you are and listen to this conversation with the great Brendan Gleason, starting a Mr. Mercedes on the audience network. And remember to review rate and subscribe to happy say I confused and spread the good word. Here he is Mr. Brendan Gleason. I'm very excited to be joined by one and only Brendan Gleason. Such a fan of yours, man. Welcome to my office. Well, look at your office.

It's the coolest office in New New York, I would have said. There's handwriting. You might, do you recognize the writing of shit here? That's by your son. Yeah. That's Donald's shit right there. Yeah, I've seen that particular handwriting before. And I've seen the actual object that it describes before, too, actually from a very early age.

Well versed in his shit? I changed him quite a lot. As a young baby. This is a historic moment for my podcast, Happy Set Confused. This is the first father-son pairing finally at Long West. We had father-daughter with Ron Howard. and Bryce Dallas Howard, but... All right.

Finally. You should do a series. Yeah. This is my new niche. Exactly. Why not? Why not exactly? It's always interesting.

But congratulations on Mr. Mercedes entering its second season. We're going to talk about that and a great many other things because you've got one of those resumes that it's hard to kind of figure out where to start because you've done a lot of cool stuff, man. Thanks a lot.

So first of all, God, where to begin? It's just since I know Don't know a bit. And I warned him that I was going to be talking to you this week. And he seemed legitimately, like, jealous that I was going to be spending time with you. That's a very nice way to put it. No, he did. And I guess I don't know why it's off-putting or shocking to me.

Like, why is a son so excited about his own father? I mean, you clearly did something right or you've brought him well. We've been pretty close all the way along the line. Yeah. My parents absolutely I idolized him. I was going to say idealised but I thought that might be cruel but they actually idolised him

he was the first grandchild and mannerly he came out with manners Arnold yeah so he's the first born he's the oldest and then he ends up like that writing obscenities

on his own scripts no no but he was absolutely beloved of my mother and my dad so he always grew up in a little cocoon of kind of being loved but he had he kind of made it easy. You know, he was, um, he was just a gentle kid. And, uh, you know,

he used to hold our hands way into kind of well-being, you know, into puberty. And you're going to say, this is odd. Would he not, is he not finding us embarrassing yet? Uh, and it never really went into that place where he found us embarrassing, except when we wanted to embarrass him, which was always very gratifying. But seriously, he didn't, he didn't have, uh, he didn't have that kind of hang up. And like, he very much became his own person and all that. It's not that we're, um, that he didn't break free or become independent, but he never seemed to have to go through that petulant thing of throwing us out the window.

Like, we've had rels and things, but he's a gentle disposition. Four boys, correct, all on all? Two of which are actors? Two of which are actors, yeah. Brian and Donnell's the first. Brian is the third in the chronology of our breeding. I want to get that down right.

I want to, for the official record, the breathing record of the Gleesons. Yeah, so there was Donald and then there's Fergus and then there's Brian and then it's Rory. And we just worked together, we worked together a few times. I worked with Donal wrote a few, wrote, he did a short, wrote and directed short called Noring. He had done one with Brian prior to that. Not to mention the hilarity, the talk, I've watched your work with the talk together. Oh, yeah, yeah, that was the immaturity for charity. That was for the hospice, so anything is allowable for the hospice.

Yeah, no, that was kind of fun where I had to give a rather dubious sex talk to him as my son. Was that mirror the actual sex talk in real life? This is male on YouTube. People can enjoy this. It's pretty amazing. Yeah, I mean, the thing was it was written by Donald, so there was quite a lot of inappropriate things for fathers to be saying that their son's in it.

And we did a lot of last with all that. And then we did the Walworth Farris on stage, the three of us did together. Right. Which was good because we had a director, which meant that, you know, we were getting old. They were all getting older. And the lads were kind of moving past the apprenticeship, well past the apprenticeship stage where, you know, they now had kind of fully formed, you know, legitimate ideas and choices and processes and that would be different from mine. And so we had a, we, Sean Foley directed us and we found that great. And then we just did a short where I directed.

I know, this is your directing debut, correct? Yeah, for film, yeah. And, I mean, I directed a few plays back in the day and stuff. But that was interesting because it was about a father and two children. It was Rory, my youngest, wrote it about the family dynamic between the father and two sons. And then Fergus put the music to it, which was interesting. And just the dynamic was different between, you know, being a director and a dad. and then just being a director,

I was acting in it as well. It was kind of, it was quite odd because some of the family dynamic, John Borman saw the short and he said it's just so weird to see people who look the same, acting father and son, but being also father and son

that it crosses all sorts of barriers and limits. And there was a certain amount of that in the process too. Yeah. You know what I mean? Where they would have accepted something for me as a director, but as dad saying it was getting a bit irritating. And similarly with me, I was kind of saying, why don't it just do what they're told?

Not quite. But you know what I'm saying? Sure. Yeah, yeah. There's a lot more baggage that goes along with something like that. Yeah, you don't know. And we had worked very well professionally before that and never really got in the way because when Donald was doing this short, I just wanted to do anything.

You know, he was, you know, I might point some stuff out to him, but I had no real, I'd no real wish to take over any control. I just wanted to kind of help and stuff like that. But it was with the view towards, you know, you're doing something, you've committed to something where I didn't really see him I handed over control to him as a director but actually as well there was something else going on where I knew that you know

I don't know I didn't just hand over control to him completely I'd be honest about it I didn't mean to hold anything back but I'm sure I did and it wasn't that I wanted to do things differently just you wanted maybe you might see at that point something quicker way of getting something done

just from having the experience but 10 years on that whole dynamic had changed I'm sure yeah so it was just very interesting the whole process is very interesting and just in terms of the dynamics which were also reflected

in the actual script itself it was the passing on of the batten I can't wait to check it out that's amazing anyway that's neither hitting our but no no no it's interesting I'm curious because you know you clearly have passed on a love of the professional

love of the art a love of the lifestyle to to your boys that they saw reflected in just I guess the joy that you carried on in your life your own life like growing up in Dublin were the arts a big part of your parents' life did they instill that in you as well? Yeah my mother instilled it in my father

even though my father kind of resisted gamely up to the end but no she used to haul him off to a theatre and stuff like that and he would like a particular type of theatre which was country storytelling basically at its best being a countryman and she was a big theatre goer she didn't participate now

she always remember she'd kind of support anything that was going on around it was kind of a musical that some crowd were doing some residence association or something we're doing in our train she'd backed them up and she'd go along and she had a really she used to keep the programmes for the abbey

and the gate and all these things and write on them superb performance by such and such a thing and she really was she was completely of it. She used to make faces, you know, at the television when something was on. I can still remember her calling somebody that Muhammad Ali was fighting a brute

because he dared to hit the great man. But watching a player, watching a TV drama, her whole face would transform. And her whole thing was like storytelling. Like in the end, she had collapsed from low blood pressure at some point. And she came back telling us that she wasn't to do any sudden movement.

and she began to describe how the doctor told her and she jumped up out of the chair to do the doctor. Mom, no, no, no, no. It's like, what are you doing? But she couldn't help just put him on because he talked like this and he said,

well, no, what did you need to do, and she's up out of the sea. So she had a kind of a real, she was a bundle of energy. She could tell, she could be very, very funny. And was kind of quite ladylike and reserved and Victorian in another way. It was a kind of bizarre thing,

but she did give us, certainly me anyway, and I always kind of felt that the theatre was a friend from the audience point of view but there was nothing, there was no performance really in our side and my brother used to sing a few and still does sing songs but in terms of the theatre there's nothing like that so that's where it grew up. I took the kind of the well-disposed

to the theatre from my mother and then I remember going in my teens and I used to kind of when I started started, when I left school and started going to theater, I used to kind of avoid it sometimes because I found there was nothing better when you went to a good one, but there was nothing worse when you went to a bad one. I found myself, you know, having sweaty palms of embarrassment when something was not working properly on the stage. And I never thought it was going to be for me to do it. But it was odd. It's only looking back, I kind of think. I was very, very,

very intolerant of sort of bogus stuff that I'd see up there. Right. I really annoyed me, and I could never put my finger on it. And that was, mostly in theatre, not in film. When you saw it was a bad production, it was just, it turned off. Yeah, it said somebody was dire, or if they were, you know, putting a posing or it was all garbage. I just found it's like getting so annoyed about it. And I didn't realize why.

It just, and it was only afterwards when kind of, eventually the penny dropped that maybe I should do, give it a shot full time, that I realized it meant so much to me. Yeah. You know, that kind of way? And I don't know. I know to say that is pretty much from my mom. And for, you know, for those that don't know, and I had forgotten this, and it's just, it's startling to realize the film career, as it were, really only got going in your mid-30s.

I think you first stepped in front of a camera around 34, is that sound about right? Well, I went full-time 34, so I didn't really get in front of a camera for another couple of years after that. It's crazy. And so, yeah, and I said, you know, I was about 35, 36. And I said, God, I'm now, I better do some. I got an afternoon on the field. I had to say, you know, basically it's up that way or something, that nature. You know, something hugely momentous.

Good start, though, Jim Sheridan. I mean, Richard Harris, that's not bad, yeah. Absolutely. But my very first thing was where I had to drive a truck. And all I can remember is the camera being stuck on the side of the window here, like a massive, you know, mirror to where you cannot avoid. It's like having a mirror up in your peripheral view where it's very difficult to avoid. the fact, you know, being self-aware, you know what I mean? Yep.

Plus the fact that I couldn't actually drive that split gearbox truck. Mm-hmm. And the guy beside me kept in mind-a-ditch, Brendan. Mind the ditch, as I was careering down this, acting my little face off, but forgetting to drive or driving and forgetting to act. I don't know what it was. In that case, maybe driving is the better thing to prioritize for your own self-preservation. Not necessarily, though.

I think, yeah. It only means you have to go again if the other. Everything is rubbish. I know, I didn't, I suddenly, I suddenly realized I didn't know. And I went into it, I'd been asked to his soap and I did that for just, there was a weekly soap at home that was kind of the whole country watched. And it was really interesting because I was allowed in behind the camera to see what was happening and how it worked.

And there was a guy, John Lynch, she was directing and he said, come on in and I'll show you how it all happens. And I thought he, you know, you got a bit of a shock when I actually arrived and wanted to know. But it was like, I, so I had to. kind of do a really quick you know learning curve

because I found my own face lied on camera but you had been acting for a while I've been acting in theatre and there's such a vast difference between like I knew that I remember seeing Michael Kane talking about you know theatre

is plus it's like you're using a scalpel but you know film you're using a laser and all this kind of stuff and so I knew the notion of over-expression and I knew hitting the back wall, everything's exaggerated in the theatre. So I thought I'd just be natural but I didn't realize that natural facial

expressions of themselves are too much on film sometimes. And so your own face as well, my face I have a kind of a rubbery face that moves in many different directions all at once and it tends to tell lies if I'm thinking or I'm concentrating on something I tend to look as if I'm about to murder somebody

something of that nature. So you have to have to find out, you know it is kind of the instrument of what you're doing on film so you have to learn you have to tame your own face basically in a way that's slightly unnatural well it's it's very very unnatural and that's part of the craft of of figuring out you know how something goes across so that being natural of itself isn't enough amazing yeah and that was a big kind of thing okay i get that now and then you find a way of staying safe you know and keeping a straight jawline and all that kind of stuff and then that gets really really dull and really really really

boring because it's safe and it's competent but it does nothing and so working you need to work with good people then I met Jan Borman in the mid-90s when I was at it about six years seven years and I went up for a part for this real-life criminal in Ireland and John did the thing and he said yeah that looks that's a good impression but you're going to have you're going to have to go deeper than that and monitors had just come out so when I got the part we talked about the part for a long time

we talked about it and it was like at that stage I began to kind of understand what he meant and what he meant was going back into yourself and accessing a place for example where you had come across bullying of any nature where you come across the world where you're in a world where people nail each other to the floor

or where people where violence is a very real option all the time and where intimidation is just a bargaining chip. And so you go into a place, maybe, an older place that you knew at some point maybe when you get caught in different situations growing up. And you've opened the door back into those experiences in order to kind of inhabit the world where that is a reality. And he taught me the difference between, you know, basically telling a story from the outside

and then living it from the inside and it was only the beginning of the journey but when you know we talked about that for about six weeks before we started shooting then we shot and he could show me around in terms of the craft he'd bring me around the monitors had only really just start

you know where you'd see the monitor was there on set with you and you could look at the previous take and he'd bring me around and say I don't understand why I'm coming in from that side I should be it doesn't feel I mean I came from there the last time And that's the way out of the bathroom. What are we doing here?

And he'd say, well, okay, watch the way the shot is. And the narrative in the camera would be coming from a different place. Or I remember there was one instance, for example, where I said, I feel very exposed. I was sitting in the car opposite of place. I was a case in a joint that I was going to rob. And I said, I feel he was always a guy who hid himself. You know, he was always, he put his hand in front of his face a lot. And we were doing that thing of hiding in shadows all the time.

and he brought me around I never forget it he put me in front of the monitor and he said just have a look at this is the shot and the way he had lined up the shot the reflections came as a jagged sort of edge

across my face on the painted glass so that I was actually covert even though in reality I was absolutely exposed and so the kind of notion of having it was doing some of the work for you and waiting to do some of the work for you

exactly the choreography that happens between the camera and the person and that the narrative in the camera doesn't have to be and should not be repeat by what you're doing that you you it's complimenting each other it's yeah and it's like that you so if i mean i remember uh when me was directing braveheart and there was one particular scene where there was an english commander and he suddenly realized the scots were in they're going to get him

and there was this you know big sort of push-in shot and i said malcolm's doing nothing he's doing absolutely nothing what's going on he should you know i was looking at it in real life and then i saw the take back and the camera was doing everything but his eyes were terrified and the realization was in his eyes you know so from all of that I kind of I've always I've always loved collaboration in film as against puppet mastery

if you know what I mean I always feel okay you know there are a lot of people who go around and say I saw this wonderful face wonderful face walking down the street I said I have to have that in my movie and they take people and they kind of puppet master them in their little vision of what's going on

and I've always found that a little bit kind of uninteresting that it's the collaboration where you know that everybody on set not just the actor and the director but like everybody contributes you know what the set designer does what the costume department get up to

you know makeup and hair all the kind of stuff right across the board but the you know all the various different there's so much creativity on the film like you see all the amount of people who are involved in the films that not everybody gets the chance to be fully integrated creatively but there are so many different departments

that are all adding to the creativity of it. And it all has something to say. And I think the more, for me, the more you're aware of what's going around you, the less you're going to duplicate. Right. You know, and the more you can allow the bar to be raised for you by them. And then you try and push it up another little bit. And I would imagine, I mean, something I was aware of,

but I was more struck by the more I kind of like got into the granular nature of like the films you've done in the last two decades. It's just the amount of talented filmmakers you've worked with. Yeah, it's astonishing You can go toe to toe to With any actor I've had in here And I've had some greats But

And it sounds like you were spoiled In a great way by Borman And if you look at a lot of the filmmakers You've worked with You've repeated with a lot of them Which I think speaks to Your talent And what you're looking for

And what they're looking for Whether it's I mean, I don't know Who I mean And I think you just Correct me if I'm wrong You just worked with the Cohn brothers

Oh man That was a thing That was I really was jealous The Donal over that I was gonna say Donald got there before me and I was like of all the things horrible little man

he did two things I always wanted to go to Egypt and he went up to Egypt on a school trip I haven't yet to go to Egypt and then he got to work with the Cone brothers on top of everything else

just to spite me but you got there I did I did get there and it was absolutely thrilling and they say don't meet your heroes and all this and it's a complete fallacy it was everything I'd hoped it would be

it was only four days we spade like you know this kind of magical time in Santa Fe. And, you know, my wife was there, Mary and she kind of said that going into work, the four of us were, there were five of us in a carriage. That was our thing, in a stagecoach. And we used to get out and get, you know, going to get to go into the van and to go

into work in the morning outside the hotel. And my wife said it was like watching children who really loved their teacher going into Kresh. because we were all hugely excited to get in there but it was the process I was fascinated I was fascinated to find out I knew certain amount I talked to Donald about it you know and he was saying that it was really interesting

how you know Joel would go up and whisper a little direction into your ear and then about five minutes later Ethan would come up and whisper exactly the same direction in your ear without either of them realizing that the other had done it and he said that was the kind of you know the synchronicity that was going on And I said, yeah, but there has to be something that happens when they disagree. And what I found in Santa Fe was that they don't say but. If one says, well, why don't we do that?

Because you can see something that is unexpected, you know, in what they were planning to do. And you could see the but happening in the opposite things, say, but that wouldn't work because. But it never comes out. There would be a thought process whereby I can't see it at the moment. okay let's try it and it'd be similar with the actors if you had an idea

you'd say look just thinking maybe this they'd say okay try it and you would try it and then you'd maybe try it maybe once or twice and if it wasn't working

you would know and they'd say maybe go back to the other one and if it did work there was nothing more said about it that's the way it was and there was never praise for a good idea

which meant that you didn't get a bunch of children in the crash all trying to come up with good ideas to please the teacher what happened was that everything was about

whether the idea was better than the one we already had and whether it was going to raise the bar for everybody and it was a fantastic thing like I just came back saying to myself just in a broad way I'm going to try to take the butt out of my life because it's a very much a default setting with me

there's a butt in there all the time but it's not to be but it's not to say that it's without discrepancy though it's not like that you just accept everything like the standards are still the same but it's the kind of acceptance of the likelihood

that the idea is probably good if it's coming from that direction. And to go with it, it was just massively sort of, it's just thrilling, really. And that's, I guess we're going to see that in the next couple months, the Ballad of Buster Scruggs, which until like a week or two ago, I think we still thought it was a TV series, but apparently is a film, and that's a gift to all of us, so I'm excited.

I was always hoping it would be. It's kind of, you know, different vignettes. Nice. But it definitely hangs together. You know, the script, how do you have scripts of film scripts? I mean, they're genius. They're amazing. Pound for pound, they're the best filmmakers alive. They're just amazing. And it was so thrilling to find that that spirit was there, you know, that it was just really exciting, that they were excited.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Everybody was excited to be there. And but everybody, and so that, what you start, we're talking about in terms of that kind of, it's not a reverence for the craft, but it kind of, it's close to it. It's kind of, it is a magical sort of unearthly thing to be doing, you know, creating in that way. I remember somebody saying to me years ago, like about theatre, that if you, that it's a massive responsibility to be given. and the collective imagination of 100 or 2,000 people in whatever audience it's going to be.

And you really need to treat it with respect, you know. But when you get the chance to go and play, I mean, it's just, it is. It's like it's magical, really. Were you worried? So the main reason you're here, of course, is this lovely show, Mr. Mercedes, now in its second season. And I believe this is your first TV series, correct if I'm wrong. At least this amount of episodes, this sustained.

Yes, the first thing that was picked up. Okay, we'll go with that. No, no, well, actually, to be honest with you, I only did another, I did one other pilot. I was always very, I always, I just came to film so late. I'm still infatuated by film. I absolutely, I prefer it to theatre now, even though a lot of people think that that's kind of heresy.

I don't. I find it very much more intimate. The possibilities are just still for me, maybe it's because I had done a fair amount of theatre, but it's just the intimacy of it and the possibilities of it are completely limitless and so I'm married to film in a way

but the idea of kind of you know, Berman said the difference in a novel and a poem really you know you do get it shot in a long term character, TV series character to develop somebody over a longer period of time and if the writing is up to scratch and if the challenge is proper

it's a fantastic thing to do It just seems to be up to now quite difficult to sustain the standards. Right. And I had done a thing with David Kelly, David E. Kelly, Lake Placid. Right. I love that that's where this begins. Of all things, Lake Placid is the genesis of this team series. I was forgetting that's a David E. Kelly project.

That's fascinating. It's amazing. I think they got slightly sidetracked by the old crocodile. The crocodile was kind of part CG, and he was part on a. animatronics and he was part like and then I didn't he basically ate up the whole budget is what the most of the biggest thing the crocodile let was the budget and uh so then they started it was funny how they brought it they marketed it then as some sort of a horror show or some side of a you know

scary thriller type thing which is not what it is it's just really rye I remember coming across the script and it was the first thing the second thing I did in America or well an American project that I did because it was filmed in Vancouver the heart of America then too far yeah absolutely and yeah it was supposed to be Maine I think David Kelly

God love him has been trying to work in Maine for years you know he can't get up there keeps writing about it and nobody will go because he wants to work from home but he had written this brilliantly rye sardonic funny as hell script

I remember reading us that's where the writers have gone that's where they were there were hiding since the 50s. You know, it was like, just the dialogue was just so, I just got a kick out of every syllable of it. Yeah. And had you kept in touch with him in all these years?

Not really. I mean, one or two kind of availability and things like that that were as he was doing his TV thing. But to be honest, like as I say, I was kind of, I didn't really. Eyes were on film. Yeah. And I really didn't trust TV in the sense that a lot of the time it was just second rate film.

Like, that's what it was. Yeah. And then it started to change. and then it utterly changed. And I think it has utterly changed, but I do still think that there's a danger of getting fast and loose with the writing in TV. It's so difficult to sustain a long TV series.

And, you know, almost of its nature. You know, how do you stay original, you know, series after series? So this was a limited thing. This is kind of, it's based on the Stephen King books, of which there are three with this particular character in them. So I said, okay, happy days. I don't have to sign up for six or seven years or something because I'm too old. I had done one pilot with HBO that wasn't picked up before that.

The Milch thing, which I just thought was going to be really great, the money it was called. And I really enjoyed doing that pilot. When it wasn't picked up, I was disappointed. And another way, I was kind of saying, okay, you know, did I dodge a bullet? you know what it's seriously like it's too long for me it's yeah it's only turns into six or seven years which the first two might be great but yeah

who knows yeah and like you can't bail after four and then where are you out there I mean you know the thing is you're looking at and you're saying the potential is here for that yeah but then when everybody feels that they have it figured out the biggest problem with people is when they think they have it figured out that's when they start asking questions about

why do we need here could we not just do that for a little bit for a little bit different We don't actually need that. I mean, I saw that in theatre as well. There was a particular guy that I started in theatre with, and he did amazing things in Dublin with, you know, the theatre of the people type stuff. And he brought a fantastic originality. Before I went full time, I was doing full shows in front of 1,300 people for 10-week extensions

because this guy had set up this organisation that he wrote plays for people who live in the suburbs. Nobody writes about the suburbs. They write about, you know, inner city, Dublin, all the hard shawes in there, and they used to write about the country people. But most people live in the summers, and this guy was a time of, you know, unemployment and stuff. I was a bad time in Ireland at the time in the 80s, and he wrote all these plays that spoke directly to that. We're hilariously funny, hugely entertaining, and very theatrical. And then he went out and he started spreading all these, you know, complementary tickets into Dole offices and into, you know, social welfare plays. and he got people coming who would never go to a theatre

and they saw their own lives reflected in it and it became a fantastic sort of a movement but I remember at one stage the Arts Council tried to get involved and they say why did you let us help you and you can do bigger and better projects and that happened for a year and then the second year they started questioning

the model why are you giving away these free tickets like could we not and like everything they started wrecking the thing that had you know because of its independence of spirit And I think TV, that's a big danger with TV, and it will reemerge, because at the moment, we're in a fantastic kind of a window where nobody quite knows what these platforms are going to produce. So everybody is suddenly saying, throw it at the creatives, and we might get lucky. So the money is getting thrown at the creatives.

You're getting all this amazing stuff that's coming out. It's a real window, and it's like the 70s in the movies. It's like the directors have been allowed to run with these ideas, all that. Now, as soon as they figure it out, or think they have it figured out, they're going to... The bubble will burst, yes. Yeah, they'll go into formulaic nonsense. But for the moment, things are pretty great. And are you finding the pace of, I mean, not seeing the final script when you endeavor on the first script.

Has that been, was that a worry at first? Or did maybe... Not with David Kelly. Yeah. As long as David Kelly is there. Yeah. And I got kind of a commitment that he would continue to be there. And so he's just, he is a savant.

he's he has an ability like nobody else the problem is nobody can substitute for him and he's hugely in demand

so I don't know at what point like there has to be a limit to his capacity but I haven't seen it yet like once you can get down to the real stuff

it's consistently surprising and it's so intuitive this is the kind of conversation that could go on hours so I want to mention at least the few of the other savant filmmakers you've worked with

because they're, you know, both of the McDonough boys gentlemen have been instrumental in your career. Yeah. Who did you collaborate with first? Was it Martin? Martin and again, that Donald fella got there first. A little swine. Yeah. So, I know, he was asked into audition for the lieutenant of Inishmore. And I remember he was mad into this stuff and I was saying, oh, gives a look at that. And then when he did it in London, Martin was at it. and I met Martin there and that's the first time I met Martin and then he asked me to do a short which he won an Oscar for it which he won an Oscar not bad yeah and I was I was nearly going to

I turned it down at one stage because I said Martin are you just pushing the envelope here I loved his stuff I'd seen his I'd seen Druid's productions of I'd seen the trilogy in one day I'll never forget that it was my best my best experience of theatre I'd ever seen way and beyond and I was kind of dreading going in three plays in one day I don't know if there's too much

I don't know if it's like two plays too much you know what I mean but it was absolute genius and then yeah he got the Oscar for that and then he did in Bruges of course so that was Martin and then John I met I think

oddly enough at the award ceremony for in Bruges I met Martin or John yeah and so we were chatting and so that developed into into two films Was Calvary the last, with collaboration? Was that the last film he directed?

I feel like he's due for... No, he did more on everyone. Oh, I haven't seen that one. Yeah. And that was the last one. He did, he wanted to go and do one in America, I think. Okay. And I'm not sure of what.

I think there was talk of a few different things. I think he was kind of pondering some TV stuff as well to kind of go in there. But I'm not sure if that worked out or not. Or he was working out. but uh or whether he decided against it but no they're amazing they're the two of them are like to be in two people in one family to be you know obviously they shared a certain sensibility of sorts but they're very different yeah very different voices very different to um to work with really there's a common thread but they're very very individual the two of them you know and just to

have worked with both of those was um i mean you know that's that's when you get lucky I watched a couple of your very heart-wrenching death scenes the last day. I think they were virtually back to back in your career. It didn't even occur to me, but then I was watching it, I was like, wow, these are two brutal deaths. 28 days later. Oh, yeah. Oh, man. Danny Boyle, amazing.

Yeah. And I guess I just, yeah, I forgot how brutal that is where it's just like a random moment where that blood drips down on you and the daughter. Oh, it's just, it's heart-wrenching. It is. Yeah, and I was really thrilled. And again, it's like one of those things. Like, Danny is, he just is a stunning sort of a force of nature. All about enthusiasm.

I mean, my God, that guy. Yeah, energy and wit to go with it, you know, like true intelligence. And then all this drive, you know, to go through. And then a heart along with it. Like, it's a fantastic combination. It's very difficult to combine all those things. You know, there's usually a kind of a, you know, bitterness can come with intelligence too much you know right too much knowledge

and make the heart grow bitter easy enough I don't have that problem all that but you know it's it's but no he's a fantastic drive and he managed to it's finding soul within the thing and I knew like that wasn't a particularly huge part but for me it was it was one the best things I ever was offered just because of the heart and the soul that was in it and and again that lack of sentimentality but the embrace of such sort of emotion, you know. And really, it was kind of such a statement. I remember talking to him and asking him if he'd ever been to Auschwitz.

It came up, the subject came up in conversation. And he said, yeah, I did. He said, I went, and it was life-changing. And I always kind of saw his work a little bit informed by that. You know, particularly 28 days later when you think of the apocalyptic thing. I remember when I got it first, I rang him up, and I said, look, I think there are a lot of other things going on in this. Am I jump, am I reading something?

stuff into things that are not there. I mean, is it just a zombie movie? Or because it doesn't, I don't think that that's what it is. And we started talking about rage and all this kind of stuff. There's so much involved in that. Like, he really is something else. And I think relatively around that same period of time, you worked on a pretty special production.

I mean, just for a variety of reasons, gangs of New York, which was like a pet project of Martin Scorsese's for many years. As I recall, didn't you guys, like, shoot that on the famous, downstages and it was over it was just stunning it was just amazing and he like the whole thing recreated there and you know the ship in the dock and all the rest of it um and like i went in he i had been availability a few times and i said it began to wear me down because i really wanted to work with him so badly and i kind of say look i can't tell you either it's on the card or not you know what i mean i don't want to be hanging on here just idiotically for for something that's not going to happen

Is he interested or not? What's the deal? Well, I said, can I go and talk to him? He said, well, he's in Rome at the moment. Why? I said, well, I go to Rome. Can I talk to him in Rome? And so they flew me over in fairness to them.

And I went in and I talked to me. He said, I'm trying to get this made the last 20 years. I said, you? And it's the first time I really felt, right, there's nobody that escapes this constant kind of lack of vision by people who can fund things. Like, as far as like, I mean, I said to him, like, you should be funded by the Smithsonian. It would be funded by the taxpayers to go and do it.

He's chronicling American history for years. It's like he's the most amazing sort of gift to the nation. And like it was chatting to him afterwards and to various other people. You know, the fact that a lot of his films didn't make massive money theatrically, but they never die. They're always turning over money.

But he doesn't get credited with that. Right. They look at the figures and they say, no, it's not a big theatrical thing. And if it goes to a video or whatever the thing is going to be now, actually that's it gets you know the money apparently goes up

in some you know I don't know the money never just disappears but so he was having trouble getting that done and I read it and I thought it was the best thing I'd ever read in terms of it was that thick it was very very thick tone of the thing but it was the ambition of it

and I remember reading the thing this could be 18 you know what it's 61 or it could be anywhere in any region of the world at any time since we've been in planet and it was the first big battle you know between the tribes and it was about the whole struggle for power when people come in with you know it was a great speech that I got to do and it didn't end up in it I think it had been

in addition to it but it was just a real sort of a a description of of how people just tried to carve out a space for themselves and their tribe their clan and they try to make it safe for their own people and that's how wars happen that's how they begin because it's just purely saying I need somewhere to be and so especially somewhere like America that was you know welcoming all the huddled masses that this stuff was as old as time this is what was happening there was a huge connection from the in the intent of the script like that I had read the first time I read it all the way through and to what he was trying to achieve

it was a monumentally ambitious project that I always love like yeah like the the final shots of that which I think it even ends on like the World Trade Centre because that kind of flash forward and like the narrative and that kind of hit that that I can't remember the narration verbatim but essentially saying that like these are forgotten stories that like this this all happened here and it's all glossed to the midst of time and it's just crazy and it's also a kind of a thing that I said there's such a difference in the cultures like they say the Irish never forget and the English never remember you know the Americans don't bother they just keep moving forward you know it's like you kind of okay right that happened before I did not know those riots and when you'd look at you know in New York that it was only you know know, it was after, like, we're so sort of aware of the famine and stuff with that at home, like it was as if it happened yesterday. But this is, this was after the famine in the formative time of New York City. And it didn't, it doesn't resonate at all.

I grew up in the city. I was pretty much ignorance at all the whole, but it's amazing. It's amazing. It is. And maybe that's what it, you know, maybe you need to, you know, it's the nature of the city. But also you kind of figure, no, no, no, there are lessons to be learned if you, if you look back. Now, correct me if I'm wrong. You're not necessarily the biggest sci-fi fantasy genre person.

Yet, having said that, you've been in your fair share. And I think that's a testament to your ability. I feel like you're able to ground what is fantastical. I'm an anchor then. I kind of drag it back down to her. No, no, no, no. You make it feel real and palatable. Well, I do.

I'm a little, I need to be convinced. And, you know, I'm not a great reader of sci-fi either. you know, what's the guy's, Phyllis, Phyllis, and all that, stuff like that. Like, I've read some bits of, and Bob's up with him there, and there's, every so often you come across stuff

that is truly great literature, and in any genre, it's going to stand out because it tells so much of us as human beings and everything. So I'm not unaware of the fact that sci-fi is a proper place to explore humanity, a hugely sort of interesting place to go. But, yeah, I need to be convinced.

And if I'm convinced, I reckon the audience is going to be convinced. Right. So it's not that I go in cynically. I just say, no, no, tell me, no, no, make me feel it. It's going to be science as part of the fiction. I'll go with the fiction if you can prove the science. So was the leap into the Harry Potter world difficult for you? No, that's magic.

That's different. Okay. Different rules. Okay. And all I was worried about Harry Potter was whether the kids are going to be brats or not. Clearly. really not I mean they hit the jackpot three times over

they were lovely kids and they were lovely teenagers and they've you know any time I meet any of them around they were just that was handled really really well I have to say like it was just a whole thing was handled really really well in my opinion now

you know we got a certain view of it but it's just it was such the kids were brought off to school when they had to go to school I remember being warned not to get down laughing or giggling because once he starts he can't You can't stop him. You can't get him to do the scene if he starts giggling.

So the first thing you'd do, of course, was to make him giggling and see if it was true or not. And I just really, I just really liked him. He was proper, his proper age at his proper age. Yeah. And he was allowed, and all of that stuff, there was huge protectiveness around them that they were allowed to be kids and they were allowed to be teenagers and they're allowed to move on then, you know?

Right. Yeah, it was lovely. And there was great care taking. What I loved about that too was, it was the best of English stuff. like there was real belief in the craft, the old movie crafts that were kind of dying out, like the pure craftsmanship of building props or building sets. Really, the green screen only came in the last maybe two or three to any great extent. It was all kept in camera with the result of all these old movie crafts that really had no

business been still, were hanging in there. And they were just producing, I mean, the workmanship. Right. And because it was wizardry, they were given free reign. to produce wizardry. You know, it was wonderful. Really well. So not being a sci-fi guy,

we don't have to add to the list of grievances against your own son, him being in Star Wars. Are you a general Huxapologist? Do you believe... Is the first order have the right thing behind it? I mean, what's your take? I have to say, I have to say,

I never, I went out to the, to, yeah, the first one. I happened to be in L.A., and so he said, Dad, would you come along to the, to the Premier and I had to say it was I mean I had seen Star Wars but I never was I never was a

you know I didn't get enchanted by it in the way that a lot of people would it wasn't at my childhood you know the lad's not so much either it just didn't it just didn't correspond right and but I watching the Premier out

in all the palaver but it was the joy of the fans and was a real eye-opener to me it was like watching you know I don't know kids go to see a boy band or something there was something undeniable you are a big boy band fan

I've always been a well I think I'm a one man boy band that's what I think of myself as a one man boy band it's all in the cheeks so yeah I just I thought it was thrilling and I just I've completely

I've been completely won over to that I just that whole thing it was and I always remember when Harrison Ford come on the screen And the place, it was the love that erupted in the room for him. It was just magnificent. It was everything movies can and should do, you know. Absolutely brilliant, yeah.

No, I'm very proud of him. I'm very proud of him. And, like, I've seen that little general hooks thing. You know, I try to wake him up on a Saturday morning. You've seen that side of you're saying? I've seen that. I've seen hooks for years. Bring that out the next time he comes by.

I'm going to mention that. So, okay, you've shot him. I saw all these episodes. I watched the first two of the new season of Mr. Mercedes. You've shot a few days on this wonderful new Coen Brothers film. We're going to see in a few months. Life is still based in Dublin, right? I mean, from what I gather, like, and I appreciate this about you,

like, there's a real sense of, like, pride and love of country. And you never moved, I think, permanently, right? No, there's a delegation came up to me from, you know, the lads with the first thing I did. It was that Lake Plast thing up in Vancouver. we brought them in Canadians are extraordinarily well-mannered and so we were walking through I remember the night they came in

off the plane and there'd been all sorts of mess and tried to get them over but they came over and we were walking up looking for just somewhere to feed them and we the only place we saw open

was Hooters and so we took the floor to me like the lads were having were grand there were you know Three of them pre-pubescent. Donald was having some interesting sort of conundrums in his own head

along with fries, please. Conundrums and fries. Myself and Mary were kind of saying, oh, look, we're here, we're here. We're not going anywhere else now until they get fed. And God loved the poor girls serving. They did not really know where to put themselves.

So that was kind of interesting. But the delegation came to me and said, Dad, listen, if you want to move over to America, it's okay with us. If the rest of America is like cooters, dad were in. Plus, with all that good manners going on, the Canadians asked them how they were feeling in things.

It was amazing. Chicken wings and good manners. What can you want from a place? Exactly. So I didn't feel, like, I had kind of put down roots by the time. The kids had been there, like, and I kind of bought into, I wouldn't, I really do avoid jingoism. I try not to get into, I know what nationalism can lead to,

the worst ends of nationalism. And, you know, you don't have to look very, far it's it's a nasty nasty notion that you know you're a superior there's a difference between that hello yes and and and and finding something like say for example the Irish language for me you know I wasn't brought up with it I grew to hate it at school but I had loved it at one point just there was one particular book in primary school I always remember about this guy going out at donkey and it was just there was something he was a man of the roads and it always kind of was

a set of romance about it was written in the old script it was just something extraordinary beautiful that I always remembered and then I hated it in secondary school all through my teams because the teaching methods were catastrophically bad and then at some point I kind of reconnected with the music and everything and you begin to see that what people were expressing themselves two thousand years ago in a way that still resonates with us in there was something about that where you say and there was a lecture that we had at college when I did go back to college went back to study it and he said people are going to ask you about because it's a dying language so why he's studying it and he said well if your mother was dying you

wouldn't want to die alone and what he said was that rather than trying to be resurrected and make make it happen again as you know in a way that it's not real realistic when it's there as part of the gift of the word you access it and I've always felt that about home you know the artist music it's the same thing there's a kind of a language within the music people think it all sounds the same it's not the same and it's kind of you know when you hear good musicians it kind of, it almost indicates a kind of soul that is generous of nature. There's something about it.

Or that's maybe a little bit tortured in some ways, but there's huge human expression in something that's very basic. And when you feel that, okay, that's part of where I come from, that's what you, I make no apology to want to access that, you know, and try and learn from it and try and get solace from it. It gives me a certain feeling of belonging, which is, you know, we've quite a lot of people who come over from here, say, from the States, trying to retract their roots and stuff. It's all, there's something where you are trying to, I would hate to be a slave to

it now, and I would hate for it to be, to blind me to things. I try not to allow that to blind me to say another way of looking at the world. But there's something about just finding where your two feet are placed and that's, that I find valuable. Well, next time we'll do some introductory Gaelic. You can give me some pointers and I'll be well in my way. Yeah. There are a few things come to mind that I should sign off at that, but I better know. One of them would get me into an awful lot of trouble again. We started with talking about your son's shit, so we can't see deeper into the sewer. How soon is it?

How long do you get before people get bored on your podcast? How long do you think we can converse in Gaelic here? Hey. But it might go viral. It could go viral. You're so of the moment, Benin, Lisa. I know, you know. Desperate to go viral.

Isn't this what the young people say? Let's go viral. We'll go viral next time. This was the thoughtful conversation. Fogamy shoot Maritace, it means we leave that where it is. Perfection. Everybody go check out Mr. Mercedes on the audience network in second season. Catch up on the first, if you'd like as well, from the great mind that is David E. Kelly and Stephen King and the great acting.

It's a great ensemble, by the way, if you mentioned. Yeah, he's a brilliant cast. And a great showrunner, a great director, Jack Bander. He's really... Of lost fame, I remember, right? That's right. And I think he got nominated for one of the Game of Thrones episodes as well. but I just found him as the showrunner and you know working as a collaborative

we're talking about collaborative directors yeah it's just a joy to work with him and the crew that we've gathered in Charleston is there's just this feeling of it being collaborative and joyful and everybody's stuff being valued to the extent where nobody needs to draw attention to their own stuff right it's kind of uh so yeah hats off to him he's been magnificent excellent uh you're welcome here anytime man Cheers. It's a real pleasure. Thanks for a good. Thanks, Amelia. Thanks, man.

And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't pressure to do this by Josh. The Old West is an iconic period of American history and full of legendary figures whose names still resonate today. Like Jesse James, Billy the Kid, and Butch and Sundance, Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, and Geronimo, Wyatt Earp, Batmasterson, and Bass Reeves, Buffalo Bill Cody, Wild Bill Hickok, the Texas Rangers, and many more. Hear all their stories on The Legends of the Old West podcast. We'll take you to Tombstone, Dead West.

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