Happy Sad Confused - Chad Stahelski

Episode Date: August 28, 2023

After a stellar career as a stuntman and second unit director, Chad Stahelski has emerged as one of the preeminent action filmmakers working today, helming the 4 JOHN WICK films. He joins Josh for the first time to chat primarily about the latest film (SPOILERS ahead!) and his ambitions beyond the Wick franchise. Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes of GAME NIGHT, video versions of the podcast, and more! To watch episodes of Happy Sad Confused, subscribe to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Josh's youtube channel here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS!⁠ NordVPN -- 🌏 Get Exclusive NordVPN deal here ➼ ⁠⁠https://nordvpn.com/HappySad⁠⁠ It’s risk-free with Nord’s 30-day money-back guarantee! ✌ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

D.C. high volume, Batman. The Dark Nights definitive DC comic stories adapted directly for audio for the very first time. Fear, I have to make them afraid. He's got a motorcycle. Get after him or have you shot. What do you mean blow up the building? From this moment on,

none of you are safe. New episodes every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts. You know why I do more John Wicks? Because I fucking love Keanu and because I fucking love the genre and I love that they let me do what I want. I love everything about it.

I love my crew. It is a arduous, painstaking, stressful. How do I outdo myself? How do we not let down the audience every day stressing, shaking hands and beating yourself up? And I love every fucking minute of it. Prepare your ears, humans.

Happy, sad, confused begins now. I'm Josh Horowitz, and today on Happy, Sad, Confused, we're catching up with the filmmaker who's doing action the right way, and that is sadly an all too rare thing nowadays. He's the director of the four John Wick films. He's beaten up Keanu Reeves more than Agent Smith. It is, of course, the one and only Mr. Chad's, the Hellsky, finally unhappy, sad, confused. I should note, it's been a few months since John Wick Chapter 4, but thankfully, we've soaked it all in, we've let time pass, and I have concluded.

this is a masterpiece sir and it is worthy of more talk welcome to the show man thank you it's nice to be here a big fan of yours in the podcast um yeah that's a masterpiece oh hey i i i rewatched the four films this gave me a good excuse to revisit the saga um i don't know if you remember can we can we just go down memory lane for a second you were you were in the throes of directing your first film alongside david i got a chance i was on set for the first I remember film. Yeah, I remember. They had a little press, all the people come by and stuff.

Yeah, totally remember. So that was, correct me if I'm wrong, was that like on a Brooklyn sound stage? It was obvious, totally independent production. Little warehouse in Brooklyn, little indie action movie. So if I were in your head that back then, you were shooting the Adrian Policki sequence the day I was there.

How confident were you in what you were putting together with David and Keanu? Oh, no, I was absolutely confident. That would be the last time I ever directed it. It was absolutely confident. We're like, let me get this straight. We're going to shoot 80 people in the head over a puppy, and we're not going to have a good guy or bad guy, and the wife's going to die up natural costs.

I'm like, yeah, no, we're done. We're going to do this artsy action movie with nice cinematography in New York where we have no business, you know, no budgets, even remotely stay in New York, let alone shoot New York. And then we'll do a car, Jason. And we're bringing all these thin guys. And it'll work out. It'll be great.

And we won't throw a punch or kick in the movie. It's going to be awesome. We're going to these long take. Yeah, it sounded really, really good when we were on, when we were conceptualizing. And then, you know, because I think the, you know, the arrogance of ignorance got us through it. You know, we didn't know what we didn't know. So we just figured, why not? Right.

If we had done it in traditional sense, I think we would have failed miserably, to be honest. When did you start to exhale? When did you know what you had? Because as I recall, you didn't even have distribution until like the very, very, very last. We ran out of money in post. Like we had done several cuts. We panicked somewhere halfway through the cut, you know, because it was, you know, at the time, the Borns were very big, the takens, fast, really quick editing.

Violence was a, you know, a topic, meaning all the headshot. And like, we were trying to get it across because we hadn't had any money for the visual effects yet. so people weren't getting that we're going to do like anime blood and it was supposed to be a graphic novel right but because we hadn't done di yet the digital internet i mean the coloring people didn't understand that it's a wacky world and you know if you if you read a john wick script on paper which we never really quite dialed in i don't think um you know hotels go coins like it read like some modern-day lord of the rings weird underworld because we actually made references like okay john wick and the notes on the side of john wick is so it did

Yes, yes, and it's, you know, Zeus and Charon. We, we stole from Dante and Greek mythology and Japanese, centuism and Buddhism and all these great little things. And people thought we were a little kooky. We had done our first test screening, you know, friends and family kind of thing. You show people, you know, you like, and there wasn't a lot of applause. People are like, yeah, good job guys. And they kind of scooted and we're like, oh, yeah, no, we're done.

And it wasn't until we're like, you know what, we're just, going to lean in. We had to come to God moment with Kian, and we're like, we're not changing this, we're going to own it, we're going to do our head shots, we're going to do our wacky choreography, you know, and we're just going to, we're going to do what we wanted and what we saw. We're not going to

get nervous. So we, we finished it as best we could, and we're very fortunate. Balzonic, our producer from Thunder Road, just went, well, fuck it, guys. We'll go to, we'll go to, you know, the Austin, you know, like the smokehouse in Austin, and we'll do

the Fantastic Fest. Right. And Keanu, myself and Dave snuck in. We're like, okay, we'll do the midnight show. We'll sneak in. No one will, like, it'll be this whole thing. And it's like, we're just expecting like, you know, we're going to hide in the back row. We'll see what happened.

We end up having to sit in the front row. So he snuck in. And about right after the first action sequence, which is, you know, late in the movie. It's not, it's an odd movie, right? There's no action for 40 minutes. And then the crowd went mental. And we're like, is everybody stone? We didn't know what was going on.

We had never had that kind of reaction. And that was the first time we're like, oh, like, I think I knew that we had something cool that I'd want to go see. Yeah. Definitely didn't fit the action normal of the time. And it was kind of right after fantastic. This is why we try to go back every year because we're really thankful for the people that were involved there. And that was, you know, I watched that in the theater and I was pretty stoked. And I saw Keanu smiles.

I know he was happy with that. It was just, there's nothing like seeing it with a real. audience, not just the Hollywood crowd. And that's kind of when we knew we had something kind of cool. But to be brutally honest, we were just happy. We had leveraged everything we had to finish the movie. And Dave and I

both went back to second unit directing for a year after that, try and survive and make up for all the bills we had. And it really wasn't until John Witt 2 came out. Did I know because, like, that's, John Wick 1 is a great, is still my favorite. It's the first. It's where we came for the character. But number two, whether it's your favorite or least favorite in the series, it's when we discovered the world. Right. We didn't have it. You really take it. The iconology,

the symbolism, the, the, the talismans, we really, that's what I really leaned into mythology. And that's when, when everybody really appreciated the world expansion, not just the action, but it was the world expansion. That's when we knew we had something cool. So it was, you know, it was a couple years before we figured out maybe we were doing something cool. it's funny to hear you talk about it in those terms because yeah i think i always talk on the podcast with filmmakers about like appreciating the big swings like there's nothing like you i hate more than like kind of like a half-ass like effort like kind of like shooting for the b like the b minus like who wants that and it does feel like watching all these films in succession if anything like these are

it's it's more distilled it's more like refined it's kind of like more of sounds like what you always wanted to do it's like the it's the pure product now that you were kind of have always wanted to do, but maybe didn't have the means or the wherewithal to make in the first place. Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. I mean, I think people don't really realize when someone direct, like, it's hard to practice directing. Now it's much easier you have an iPhone and that iPhone can shoot, can edit, you can put music to it.

You can make your own little movies. Like, it's a fantastic tool. Don't get me wrong. But directing on set with 500 people that you have to get on the same page, like, you know, directing is death by a thousand. cuts. If every little detail's not there, like you have to steer the ship. But at the same time, you can't do it alone. You have to be the creative force. You have to be the driving force. You have to be the managerial force. But you need all those people to make you. It's not like a musician that can just sing or play in it. I can't do it. So I need that. And that experience that you have, that's, you know, whether you look at Nolan or whether you look at Fincher or whether you look at Tarantino, hopefully you're seeing a progression and evolution because you're learning the technical craft. You know, hopefully all of us, or at least myself, I'll speak for, like, I, you know, even coming from, you know, 10 years of second unit directing and action directing and another 10 years of son courting, to learn to learn to get and communicate, not just, that's my vision, you know, I mean, like, you have to get it across, especially when you're trying to do something new or at least different. John Wick was different.

So, you know, I have people look at me like, you really want dogs to buy crotches and you want this to do that and be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what I want. How do we do it? We don't know. We never done before. it takes time to learn that like it's not like you can just go out and practice real directing all the time like it's years in between movies it's prep is you know you have to be great at development you have to be great at prepping you have to be great at shooting you have to get at posting you have to be great at publicity and selling and get like there's a lot of aspects

that you don't it's not just yelling action and cut so hopefully you'll see as you get these things go i think john wood for for me is everything i ever wanted out of john wick like there's no excuses for me there. Like I had all the money the studio could give me. I had all the creative control. That's me. Like if you want to see what I love, it's museums, it's classical music, it's ethereal music, it's atmospheric music, it's me, you know, it's action, it's kung fu, it's samurai films, it's westerns, it's Leone, it's Corrosawa, you know, it's big set pieces, it's anamorphic lenses, like everything I love about cinema is in it. So I have no excuse. If you like it, you like me, you don't like it, it's fine. But it does take a while to

get there. And if you don't realize that you can, one of the best analogies, I'm very fortunate. I've been working, I've got the chance to work with Donnie Yen and Jackie Chan and Samo Hung and Yung Wu Ping and Yung Kui and, you know, some of these, some of the greatest, you know, got to talk with Jean-Wu and Luke Boussant, like some of the greatest in genre action I've got either to work with or have a nice rapport with. And one of the most interesting things I ever got, from a conversation with Jackie Chan, who is literally one of the most intense, creative and passionate perfectionist

I've ever had the chance to meet. But he would, you know, we'd get into the, we'd geek out with martial art choreography and, you know, where does he come up with like the creative process? Because we're all different, you know? And it's very rarely what you think. Like, you know, moments of inspiration come randomly or,

and he's got a little mantra where, like, you know, we'd ask, like, where do you know, it's perspective. for him. Whereas most choreographers or stunt teams or even directors or any kind of creative looks for the easy way out of the room. Like in your room right now

if we were doing an action sequence, a guy comes in from those French doors behind you. We have a fight. I'm going to throw you over the couch. Like the obvious. I'm going to use the books. I'm going to throw you over, right? He's big with constraint. He would go, okay, once I come into the room, okay, you're going to throw dust in my eye.

I'm going to be blind. Those doors, there's a a beam is going to lock. Now I can't go out the doors. I can't go out the window. Now we're going to light the room on fire. And then you're going to handcuff me at the same time. I have to save one of the book. So my goal is not to beat you up. My goal is to get the book out one piece. But you want the book and three thugs come in. Right. Adding as many obstacles as possible to make it a challenge. Yeah. Okay. And you're like, okay, Jackie, that that's great how are we going to do it. Like, give me your ideas. And he'll just look at you and go, I have no idea. But if we figure it out, it'll be the best fight in the movie. Like, that's the

mentality i've tried to have through all the john wicks like if you asked me in prep during when i have to sell these ideas how i'm going to do a fight scene on 224 steps at sacra curro how am i going to do you know 30 stunt guys with 50 stunt drivers and the arctic triumph i swear to god i've looked several studio and producers in the face and go i have no fucking idea we're just going to trust that me and my guys are going to figure it out and that's and what you don't see in the john wicks are the dozens of set pieces that fail what you don't see are the ideas we've rose we've gone down and and and like oh that really was a bad idea you know like or we just conceded like wow man we couldn't figure it out but the ones we felt the most or had the highest probability not of

success but the highest probability of interest like if we did pull it off it'd be cool like it'll be trade and we try to do that not with one sequence literally with that and I look at that with scenes too like if I do get to shoot in the Louvre what's the best way like swing fuck it let's shoot in the Louvre and if they say no I'll try the Notre Dame if they say no to Notre Dame I'll get you know say in a stash if they say no to see in a stash I'll get the little church on the court like you just swing big like I'm shameless like when I go I was like yeah like on the first movie Dave and I were like you know you look at your cast and we're like well who lives in New York we're like well Warren's Fishburn lives in New York let's see who like and you know you know And you'd be surprised. I would say we have higher than a 95% rate of people wanting to work. And, you know, I guess for whatever reason, you'd have to ask them. You know, it's just they want to be asked and you have to sell it to them. So we take the same idea with choreography or set pieces.

It's like, you know, if we're going to go, like I'm, and you've probably heard it in business before, I 100% live by swing big, fail big. You just don't want to fail all the time. You're swinging big and losing all the time. You mean you rain it in a little bit. But I think with the creative aspect is like you can't just go bigger is better. Like I don't think that's it. But I mean with ideas because sometimes an idea of a staircase may seem small,

but you can grow the idea to something. You know, and like I love animals. I love dogs. So how do you take that to a new level? It's a simple idea, but how do you make it feel big and do something new? for those that don't know, and probably most people listening are watching the podcast, know your history, but you go back about probably 25 years now with Keanu from the stunt side of things, from Matrix and on. I'm curious, like, I know, and I know you talked about this, like Keanu loves movies. He's a geek. He's a film nerd like, like, like, like us. I remember seeing like him on a plane a year or two ago and noticing he was watching. I eaves dropped and watched him watch a clockwork orange followed by Morbius. And I was like, that's my guy. doesn't care high art low art whatever he loves movies um do you remember like bond were you bonding with him about movies on the set of the matrix do you remember commonality or common interests in

terms of film taste um when we were in the dojo the the training hall for the first matrix it's a pretty remember you got to i mean for all the kids out there kids anybody under 40 when we were doing matrix back in i think it was they were prepping in 95 shooting in 96, or maybe you know, 94, 95, 96. So the internet was just out. Cell phones are still the Nokia's. But like martial arts still weren't big. Like, you know, it was like a genre thing.

In modern blockbuster Hollywood movies, it was the Schwarzenegger Stallone, you know, kind of thing where you, you know, big power punches. Like, we just do brawls. We don't kick. You know, the, the Matrix really brought mainstream movies and put martial arts. together with them. After that, then it's easy to see the marbles and the D.C.s and all the takens and born, like, Matrix

opened the door for all that because Kung Fu became cool the way to which house. It wasn't a period piece or a Wuzha film that became modern-day super hit, slick sci-fi. Anyways, so as we're training in that, for the people that don't know, the choreographer on the first matrix, and all three matrices, there was

a fantastic Chinese choreographer, already incredibly famous in Asian cinema called Yomou And he comes from a big Peking opera background with his family of like eight brothers and they're all, he'd recognize them for the, the big classic kung fu movies at the time for the 80s and early 90s was, you know, like, you know, monkey fist and once part of time in China and, you know, fist of legend, like all these epic kung fu movies. And Yul Ping and his group had done. So as we're training, you know, know in the in the in the in the training hall because we're learning kung fu and we're doing the different styles and the animal styles of kung fu and we're learning the wirework and all that every break and i'll literally on a constant loop over in the little break area of the gym some hong kong or china mainstream wuzhou or kung fu movies going on so you're watching

fista legend with jet lee a thousand times you're watching once upon a time in china one two three four five a million time you know you're just you're in a jacky chamber like that's when you know I'm like, you know, would literally get his food and instead of taking a rest or he's, he's right every minute, every lunch break, everything, he's watching a kung fu move. And I don't mean just in the back, I mean, watching it. Like, I mean, the guy can quote movies from, you know, Jet Li, Donnie Yen, Samohan, Yombeil, like all these great. Actually, and that's what you know, like, we kind of bonded over. Like, there was no, like, hey, so what do you think of, you know, you know, one flew over the cuckoo's nest. It was like, right, right. It was like right off the bat.

I barely had met him and we're in Australia and we're bonding over watching some of the, you know, Shaolin Temple and we're watching some of these Kung Fu movies that talk about going down the geek rabbit hole. We're way down. We're way past Wonderland at that point. You know what I mean? So we bonded over like old Kung Fu films and, you know, Eagle Claw techniques and how we, you know, and what Kianna thought. So I'm watching him and I'm learning about him through like the geeky smile because nobody's looking like, you know. know, like this is before anybody really knew who Jet Li was and knew that, like, you know,

we're still in that time period. So it was kind of cool to bond over that. And then it just naturally progressed to, yes, I mean, I think Keanu is, I might be more into the genre stuff, but you'd be surprised how much he knows about manga and anime. And, like, he, I don't know if I said, but, like, I had been into Asian cinema. He's the one that kind of introduced me like Wonkar-Wi. And, you know, in the mood for love and all, like, the really artsy side of Asian. Asian cinema that I had got into and we would exchange things like that and he would go much

much deeper into I would say really high level or critical acting of really great performance pieces and aside from all that geeky stuff that we're into and mainstream acting he was also very into theater like he knew who was you know what shows were going on like an incredible broad broad perspective of performance and that's kind of how it did yeah I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the L.A. Times. And I'm Paul Shear, an actor, writer, and director. You might know me from The League, Veep, or my non-eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters. We come together to host Unspool, a podcast where we talk about good movies, critical hits.

Fan favorites, must-season, and Casey Mistoms. We're talking Parasite the Home Alone. From Greece to the Dark Night. So if you love movies like we do, come along. on our cinematic adventure. Listen to Unspooled wherever you get your podcast. And don't forget to hit the follow button.

Hey, Michael. Hey, Tom. A big news to share it, right? Yes, huge, monumental, earth shaking. Heartbeat, sound effect, big. Mates is back. That's right. After a brief snack nap.

We're coming back. We're picking snacks. We're eating snacks. We're raiding snacks. Like the snackologist we were born to be. Mates is back. Mike and Tom, eat snacks. Wherever you get your podcast.

Unless you get them from a snack machine, in which case, call us. I want to get into some specifics about John Wick Chapter 4. If you haven't seen it by now, folks, I don't know why you're listening or watching this podcast. What's spoiler alert, John Wick dies. Was this, was this, okay, was this ever on the table? for another any of the other films was he ever going to die in any of the other films and how resolute were you that this was going to be how this one ended and why um good question um process wise like i wish i wish i could say yeah or myself and some of the other people involved

were these creative geniuses architects of an amazing franchise that had a plan and go as i stated before after the first one we thought just assumed we're done it was a nice try oops, fucked it. Back to second unit directing. It wasn't until the movie come out literally a year later and did okay that, you know,

we got a good critical review and we had a good second run. No one really saw it the first couple weeks and then word of mouth going around. So it was almost a year and a half later we did number two. And again, we were still, that was really low budget number two.

We just got lucky. We still had Cana Rees, which is a godsend. And number two comes out. And again, if you look at like, I'm not a very fantastic writer. I think I'm fairly

creative thinker. I don't know if I'm a creative right, but like we had the idea and I know we wanted to do mythology and we wanted to do all this other storytelling. So that was an instant, okay, we kind of knew what we do. We're going to blow the world out. There's a continental in every city and I'm going to bring in everything I love about kung fu movies, the different styles and that

we knew that. How to end it, Keanu and I always hated when people rushed the third act and tried to cinch up the movie. So we just had it as well, we're probably never going to get to do another one. So let's just, we're going to make them think that everybody's out and we're going to do this cool you know more of a you know an operatic ending like a fourth acting where he just runs away and we're just going to let the

audience think what happens to him but there's no out for john he's always going to die we're just he runs out the thing we'll just let the audience assume either he lives a happy like i like um you can create the story in your own head yeah i like i like i like care both like not like novellias or you know the the nickel or dime store novels where like they just kind of leave you hanging yeah so we did that and then um number two came out and did okay so now like oh like we didn't know that i was already prepping a different projects at the time and then cana and i both were in japan on on a on a press tour and we were both adamantly number two was done we were like we're good we you know dodged a bullet we did two good movies let's this

let them rest. And then six months later, we're in Japan and we're sitting at this, at the Imperial Hotel. They have an incredible scotch. So we're sitting there just having a drink congratulating ourselves for not sucking, at least as bad as we thought we were. And we're like, oh, I have this idea. And he's like, well, what? Well, let's do like the gauntlet. And we didn't get to do, you know, we never got to do that. And we always want to do something in Chinatown. And well, you know, John Wick in a desert would be cool. And he, and he just looks like, John Wick needs to ride a horse. I'm like, yeah, horse in the city. And he's like, yeah, in a suit. And we're like, God, we got a lot of ideas. We should make a movie. So we got back

and I was prepping something else at the time. And the idea is just came, came, came. So we ended doing that. But we didn't know quite how to end it. We can't when I thought like, you know, doing a cool thing like a tragedy, everything over a long enough timelines of tragedy. Right. Like, wouldn't it be cool if we found a cool way to balance out that John, you know, gave his life? And it just, it became like a five-hour movie. So we're like, okay. let's just stick with what we know. Let's have John do this. We'll put Sophia in here,

the Halliberry character. We do this. We do something cool. And, you know, we'll kind of leave that open end where John has Winston. And, you know, we'll do a false thing

where he's got to, you know, just get out of it. We'll leave it like, okay, he's going to go after the high table. Kind of like our attitude on the second. Did the third movie. And then we were really done. We're like, we're done.

You know, that kind of thing. And then, again, it was a year later. And we're like, Henry both felt like we kind of let everybody down on the ending of number three. Like, I think it was well received, but it was kind of like, you know, people really like John and like, they're like, what the fuck guys? You know, that was an action ending, great. But like, you know, okay, what the fuck? Like, you know, tough talking mythology here.

You didn't really wrap it up. We're like, ugh. And you're like, we started talking more and more. And like, we just felt like we didn't leave everything we had on the table. so in an incredible very rare Hollywood moment the studio actually came back to us and the studio was really psyched about making another one and it wasn't a fight for money or it didn't feel like a cash cam

they're like look we get it now people love this character they love the world it's never really totally antagonistic with the studio it's just you know it's creative control what people think and now after three movies we had proved ourselves like yeah John Wick is pretty weird. It's not going to follow the regular thing. And my process is completely far.

It's not very inclusive of, you know, creative collaboration or anything like that. So, but, you know, Joe Drake and Nith Gahehan and Matt Leigh and Annie and all these guys with the studio came back around. And we're like, no, just, okay, go weird. And we're like, oh, well, we want to kill him. And then you saw everybody's face go really straight. like we want to kill our our premier franchise we're just getting going guys now we're clicking like look give us a go and if you i'll shoot different endings we'll do like i'll hear you i think this is i think what kiana ever is going to work let us do it let and they were cool they let us go

big i'm like look to wrap this up you know i had a several meetings about like look if you're going to go big can you do it in two and a half i'm like well maybe we'll see but they did they did end up backing us to at least shoot the movie we wanted to shoot. And then like when we finished that, Keanu and I saw the first rough cut and we're like, this is what we want to say, we're just not saying it well so we have to keep working on the cut, but like

it turned out. So an answer to your question in Long Forerner's no, no, we had no fucking clue. We didn't have a fucking plan. We just kind of flow from movie to movie about one's a rock opera, one's a old to 70's films, one's kind of a Western and one's kind of a twisted bourgeois samurai tribute

to Leone thing. So depending on what Roos World, but we want to express, that's what it was. And what was the alternate ending that you shot? Was it like Keanu literally like, was it John Wick appearing at his own grave site? Yeah, literally something as as uninspired is, I always need anything. But like, you know, you get a little bit more secure and more you direct and you become a little bit more adult instead of, you know, my normal instinct is to throw a temper tantrum, threaten kill, crash, throw things and smash But, you know, you learn that like, look, the audience, you never know, like the emotional So I'm always happy to try something, but just when you know you have time and money research,

you have to go with what you believe in. So we did that and, you know, people around us asked, well, what happens if you did see it? And you're like, fair enough. And at a little time, we'll go shoot this. And it is just a shot revealing John and stuff. You know, and my only caveat was like, look, hey, can we test them both? I want to see. And I was curious, too.

in my heart of hearts i knew what the right way to go was but like fuck it you know let's test it and see right and we test it and we got such a violent reaction from the audience um it was like i mean we weren't even not the credits had even finished wrong and everybody's like yeah it felt it felt it felt like you know it felt like very hollywood-esque right right well we'll get we'll get back to the future of don lick later uh if at all but like i do want to ask also, I mean, in watching for again, look, in a nearly three-hour movie filled with showy sequences, there's nothing showier than the Dragon's Breath shotgun sequence, its overhead sequence. That, I mean, you can't help but think that there's a strong video game influence on that,

on that sequence. And it's probably no surprise to see on your filmography that you're attached to, not one, but two different projects, Rainbow Six, and Ghosts, which both, right, exactly, that have, obviously, obvious video game roots. How strong are games in your life and do they do they infiltrate your sensibilities when you're making down? Funny enough, I'm I'm not a gamer at all. Like I don't play video games, but I don't like literally I don't own one.

I don't, I wouldn't know how to turn PlayStation on. But my partners and my friends, like they're very big into gaming. But I love the gaming world. I love the creative X, but I will sit and watch gameplay. for hours. I will sit and watch the cinematics for hours and days. Like, you know, I've always been into looking

and, like, I just, it clicks with me. It's like anime or manga. It just clicks. I get it. Like, just like I can sit and watch with no subtitles. I can watch a Japanese thriller. I can watch any of Kurosawa stuff, and I can watch any Wuzha film. You're not just

for the action, but I just, it it makes sense to watch it and try to figure things out. I love Korean cinema. So when it comes to games, again, I, like, you know, before they made any TV show, last of us, I would just watch, you know, my friends play it and I watch cinematics. I just, I got the story. You know, before Arcane became a very big, you know, animatic TV show, you know, I don't think the game was nearly as good as the anime, but I love what they were trying to say with that, you know, and then Assassin's Creed had come out decades ago, and I was like, this is the coolest thing.

I'd never play the game, but I would watch it for hours to watch people play. I love what I love, and, you know, having, you know, part of our stunt company did, we were some of the first, if not one of the first stunt team, was to really become involved in motion capture. Way back before it was even implemented in film, you know, so, you know, here in L.A. and stuff that people didn't know who to go to for martial art mocha. And so they came to our little company, and we spent a lot of time. So I was introduced to the video game technology very early on and got to meet some of the

creatives and to see the world like it's mind-blown that's why i'm so fascinated by like Pixar and i've had a lot of contact with you know and um uh you know whatever you want to say animated directors sure you know what's it like i i think i'm very good at taking a space and doing something with it like seeing the museum the hall the stairs around like i'm reacting to the physical world if somebody gave me a blank piece of paper i'd be like what do yeah yeah yeah yeah exactly so i've spent so much time with the video game guys way before John Wick

just exploring that world of the virtual camera and that's a challenge to me so like for the last 20 years that's been a huge influence in how I think and how my creative process goes is using the video game ideas of virtual technology and world building and all that like you can't which house is who I learned

90% of my career from you know what and whether I'm willing to bet any maize your director has at least least delved into anime or video game because the sky is it's the creative mind is the limit and if you're not delving into that as a director i think you're limiting your exposure to things so you know the video game reference like it just makes you think like well most people don't do elongated top shots because you're looking at a carpeted floor or you're you know you only get one perspective you

don't you see a puff of smoke so the challenge is well how do i show a gunfight in a different way and it's just like oh i i love top shots in general it's how we use stunt doubles and how we can do you answer questions. And for John Wigg, it's always, how do we make it look artsy? You know, how do I get the respect of the regular community in an action? Who, you know, we're definitely looked down upon,

that's for sure. But like, you know, so how do we, how do you blow them away with your cinematography in your production? Well, we'll get an ammunition that spread, and I had been exposed to Dragon's Breath years ago through my friends in that world. And we're like, well, we'll do that.

And we'll do that. You know, if you look down, it's like etch-a-sketch. You get to make pretty pictures. pictures with muzzle flashes and ammunition, and we'll change the color of the floors, we'll put holes in it, and we'll make the guys come in for it, and we'll put paper in the air. And it does have a very video game aspect. Right. But I think if I hadn't been so exposed to anime and video games, you just don't think like that.

So I think it's a huge part of my thinking. Are the two films that I mentioned still on the docket, and are you finding inspiration from the source material? I would love, love, love to work with Michael B. Jordan on Rainbow. I think, you know, we're in a bit of a conundrum right now with developing that, obviously. with strikes and then i think you know the one of my biggest passion projects is goes to shishima you know it's getting everyone's head around you know this is one of those beautiful video games ever made so it's a challenge to not do less than than the guys over at sucker punch have

done um to use in all japanese and all asian cash the mongols and all that stuff to get the rest of the world behind that that's a cool thing to do that it doesn't have to be you know uh you know all subtitle, all in English, like, there's a way to express that. Because I think if anyone knows the game, it's a fantastic story. It's an incredible myth. It ties in some very, very specific Japanese mythology, but at the same time, it's got a story that I think transcends any kind of nationality. I think it's one of the best video game stories about what happens to Jin Sakai.

So that's definitely on that. Like, I'd like to do either one of those as my next. And I'm attached to Highlander, too. So those are my three. I love all this stuff. I love Highlander mythology. I've loved it since there was a kid. And as I was a child.

How much time did you spend talking to Clancy Brown on the set of John McClure at Highlander? That's weird. I was looking to, the part, like, John Wick's scripts aren't a lot. Like, we keep working on them and they keep evolving due to avail. Like, you got to roll it, man. Like, we're just coming out of COVID. I haven't got out like, I'm asking for some weird shit. That role was very minimal.

It was a very simple. It was just meant to deliver a piece of paper and that was it. And then we started going, well, wouldn't it be cool if this guy laid down the lawn? We need somebody to bounce the marquee off of. We don't have a good filler scene here. That role became bigger and bigger. And the whole time I'm going down the road, well, you go from a regular little day player cast to who can you have. And we know we needed somebody with Gravatoves because now it became like, you know, his name's the harbinger.

So we need some money so much. And my partner, Alec Young, literally goes, hey, dummy, take Clancy Brown. And I'm like, you know, because we have a whole Highlander room here. He's just like, how did I not think of that? And like, literally within five minutes, we're getting in touch with Clancy's people going. I love you, sir. I'm also the guy attached to you. But, yeah, Clancy's, he's got great stories about Highlander about how that all came about,

which is every bit is fascinating if that more than the John. like stuff but not not how you think it was a lot of happy accidents a lot of right well how did we didn't know it was going to be this wacky how to like what what you know he was trying to tell him to play the kyrgyn as where the kirk came from i i think you know there were many dinners in berlin and there were many on set references obviously to clancy but he would i mean i i i still get to talk to him which is fantastic it i am curious one more thing on on highlander just because i'm i up with that film. And I'm, I, I haven't seen it in a while. Is it a good film or is it a great concept in search of a great film? Like, I mean, yeah, it's one of the, I'm going to go with

one of the best worst films ever. Yeah. I mean, like, but you got to, like, I've read Wyden's original script, which was a very different movie. And then you get, okay, he's movie, which, I mean, again, you get a reference thing back 80s action movies, whether it's old predator or so like they have a vibe tool it's masculine they're fun they're experimental they're they're little kooky they're in your face like you know so if you look at it that way like look at mackay or the director for the people that don't know some okay yeah yeah he came from a a music video background right he had done a queen video so like you know he's friends with freddie mercury and the band he he managed to get that soundtrack i mean that's like dude

The tagline is there can be only one. And he's like, Princess of the Universe. I mean, what? Like, that movie has power. Now, you can go, it's a little cheesy and structure. And you can argue that the whole, you know, present-day police love stories is forced and very 80-ish. And there's not a lot that happens in the second act. It's mostly about, you know, bitching flashbacks with Sean Connery mugging the camera.

Right, right. Curious accent. Yeah. Yeah, that's one of those happy things. Like, I, you'd read the original. all script and go, wow, there's something really cool here. Right. Right.

But then you'll see the boards and go, what the fuck are we making? And then you watch the movie and it has no business being good or cool or interesting. But for whatever reason, fish eye lenses, weird sword fights, fucked up dialogue and the queen soundtrack make it one of the funnest movies you'll ever watch. Like, if you just get popcorn and a drink and you watch it, like there's something, you can feel it. It's that unwritten thing that makes 80s movies

fucking awesome. Are you far down the road or is Cavill still attached? Yes, yes. I think we have some very good elements of the pilot. The trick is when you have the tagling and they're killing to be one.

You just can't kill everybody in that person. So we're looking to feel a little bit like I'll say it for you first. We're looking to do, our story engages a lot of the same characters and stuff like that, but we've also brought in elements of all the TV shows, and we're trying to do a bit of a prequel, a setup to the gather.

So we have room to grow, grow the property. Because honestly, like, with John Wick, I never would have said, and to this day, I would say, like, I don't think it's really a franchise. We keep taking one as a one-off. And if someone wanted to explore the world, that's great. You know, if there was a John Wick 5, if we come up with a good idea, yeah, we'd make one. If there is interested in doing the TV, yeah, we'd do that.

Like, I think the world is big enough to do that. But we didn't know that until fairly recently. to like three you know Highlander I can tell you right now that's a great I'll watch if some you know if we got our shit together and we pulled off the feature

yeah like we have ideas for days about how to make the coolest characters and to make that an epic TV show and I just think that's a rich rich rich metallic when you can pick any period in time any nationality any culture any type of person

and make them an immortal that have to duel and deal with the burden of immortality that's fucking cool to me so that's that's And a thousand percent sold. Yeah. It's like a little bit of creative burden going like, yeah, I just don't want me the guy that functions.

It can't be worse in Highlander, too. We know that, the quickening. Never underestimate the power of anybody like me to mess this. I'm looking at the track record, man. I'm sorry. You're succeeding. Goodbye. Summer movies.

Hello, Fall. I'm Anthony. Deveny. And I'm his twin brother, James. We host Raiders of the Lost Podcast, the ultimate movie podcast, and we are ecstatic to break down late summer and early fall releases. We have Leonardo DiCaprio leading a revolution in one battle after another, Timothy Shalame playing power ping pong in Marty Supreme. Let's not forget Emma Stone and Jorgos Lanthamos' Bougonia. Dwayne Johnson's coming for that Oscar in The Smashing Machine, Spike Lee and Denzel teaming up again, plus Daniel DeLewis's return from retirement.

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You reference, like, on that first one, you just somehow kind of, like, cast the net of, like, these great New York actors. And the ensemble has grown. We mentioned Donnie, who's just amazing, unsurprisingly, in this film. I'm also obsessed with Bill Scarsgaard in this movie. Like, short of Tom Hardy as Bain, I think I want to hear Bill Scarsgarde speak in that French the rest of my life. Because he goes, I want to do a little bit, like, fucked up French, like, Cajun accent. I'm like, I have no idea what that sounds. I don't know if it's accurate or whatever, but I love it.

People gave his shit a little bit because it's not a good French accent. I'm like, guys, it's not supposed to be French. Like, he wasn't trying to be French. He's a guy that speaks French, that's all. So generally speaking in your approach to cast, at this point, is it, do you tailor roles to actors, or are you finding the best actor for the role or, yeah? I would say 70% of the cast, they're written for those people.

They're in our heads when we're making the characters. and the other 30%, the names are coming off, you know, inspiration that we've written to the page. Like, you know, we try to cast the person. Like, I wanted somebody, like, Rina's a good example. I couldn't. We went through a lot of casting for the, the carer role, looking for people.

And it's just, I could just see something. I wanted the personification of an anime, you know, female anime character, just the stance and look that just, I wanted somebody that projected, you know, not to get onto like, you know, the strong female action hero thing. But I just wanted somebody that was incredibly feminine that you could believe it could beat the shit out of you. So, you know, look great in this kind of world, we have this profile that looked like, just had a lot of these elements that make you just go, well, that's different. And then I was just, I was in Berlin one night going down the YouTube route. And I was like, for choreographies or for martial art, people like ourselves, you know, we dive deep into the dance or gymnastic world.

I like dancers, a lot of people that have a dance background, even if it's not professional, because they can remember moves. And people forget that choreography is a lot more about memory than it is on actually sidekicks and back. So we look for people that have that athletic rhythm. And I was going to, okay, you know, Japanese dancers and then Japanese pop stars. and I kept seeing the same link come up but the girl in the tags on YouTube looked very different and it was it was always Rena but she had orange hair

and she had red hair and just like well she can change looks so I kept going on her videos and I'm not much of a pop music person but I started a lead and I'd watch her dance and like the woman had such for whatever reason over the next three days I kept going back to her videos you know what I mean like there was just something I

I don't know. Something that I got, and she just popped off the screen for me. So I let that mull around on my head for a weekend. I came back on Monday and asked my producer, like, look, you guys are going to think I'm kooky, but I want to get a hold of this person. And just, let's do a Zoom. Say, fuck it. Let's just do a Zoom.

Like, let's swing. So they got me on, and she happened to be living in London at the time. Spoke, like, British English fluently. She's from Osaka. So yeah, she has to the Osaka Japanese accent. I'm like, look, I'm Chad. I do these movies. Joan. She's like, I know I've seen John become a fan. I'm like, okay, great. I was like,

how did you like to be in one? And she went, what do you mean? I was like, well, I have this role. Let me explain the one. We talked and talked. She's like, that's great. That sounds super cool. I've never done an action sequence and I have never, other than music videos, I've never acted. I'm like, okay, would you like to fly to Berlin? Let's just have a chat. Let's meet Keanu. So I sent her to the pages and she flew to Berlin. Keanu and I all sat down. And she was brutally honest but like you look at her work and like there's a reason she's so successful in what she does

because she so we put her with the stunt team for just like two hours to assess and you know I brought my two top stunt choreographers you know in and they just gave me the look and went they gave her the nod

this will work this look and I went to Keanu and and he did a little read with her and I was like so what do you think he's like yeah she's but we wait for it. I'm like, all right, and called her back and go, hey, how would you like the gig? And then we actually got into it with her, you know, we put it with our acting team, and she did a couple of reasons. She did a little work on her own. And she ended up, Hiro Yuki Sonata is a good friend together, that plays Shimazu.

And Hiro took her right under her wing, and they bonded very quickly, I think because of the Japanese thing, because they actually liked them. and she would work with Hero literally every day and within a week of just being with us we ended up expanding the part you know I'm like sometimes you just get that

happy thing like that Bill on the other hand I've known for years he was an atomic blonde that David had done and I was always kind of a fan of his family of like his dad and his brother and then when I saw him in atomic blonde

I asked by Dave like who the fuck is that oh that's Bill because he heard about him and Bill and I I have talked on and off over the last eight years, and I've always wanted to work with them. So when this came up, I actually sent Bill the John Wick script at the time to be a different role, right? And Bill called me back and goes, yeah, no, I love the marquee. I'm like, I'm sorry, what? No, dude, I got you for this part.

He's like, uh-uh, this is the fun. I want this guy. And it's like, oh, that's awesome. Amazing. Yeah. Two more quick things. I know you have to run. I know you're busy.

I just want to jam in two. the look we talk look this movie ends with john wick dying that being said it is the most highly successful critically acclaimed of the john wick series i'm sure the studio wants another one have you had have you had the drink with keanu and have you considered like what do you do like could you would you embrace mythology could he be in the afterlife would you ever go that route like how do you if you ask uh cana russ like the whole thing's a fever dream he died in the first one when he's sitting there looking at the phone and this is all This is all Jacob's Ladder's shit.

He's in purgatory. So I'll cover it that way. Look, man, you know how lucky any of us are in Hollywood to have an audience or to have a studio or have anybody going to give you money to make more of what you really love? You know, I've heard people sometimes, why would I ever do that? Like, you know why I do more John Wakes? Because I fucking love Keanu and because I fucking love the genre. And I love that they let me do what I want.

I love everything about it. I love my crew. It is a arduous, painstaking, stressful. How do I out do myself? How do we not let down the audience every day, stressing, shaking hands and feeding yourself up? And I love every fucking minute of it. So like, that's why we do them.

But our main rule is, yeah, Kenna have talked. It's like, Keanu, if you ask him right now, would you do John Wynne 5? He'd be, fuck, yeah. But then he'd look and go, well, what is it? I have no fucking idea. Like if you ask. So we don't have the second part.

We have the first part, but not the second part of that question. And believe me, like, it's always, it's not like, let's going to, we're going to figure it out today. Like, look, man, we're going to do our other stuff for a little bit. But if, if I was driving in the car or if I was just walking the dog and an idea hit me, within 30 seconds, I'd be on the phone at Kianu and we'd be riffing. Like, we have a lot of set pieces. We have a lot of ideas. We have a lot of things that we didn't go or didn't do before. I have no doubt that we would come up with a lot of great pieces.

It's just what's the main threat? Like, we're about missed. So, like, you know, it's a fable. What's the, what's the message in the fable? What's the moral of the story? You know, for, we didn't title the movie, Haga Curry, but at one point, it was John Witt Chapter 4, Hagokuri. Haga Curry is a Japanese term that if you really dive into what it really means and how

it was expressed. there's some meaning behind that. And that was our guiding theme. Like what happens if this happens? That kind of, but if we found that moment and we found that thread, yeah. So like an answer to your question,

I think you wouldn't find anybody involved in Johnwick's that wouldn't want to do another on it. It has nothing to do with business. We just like the world. It has nothing to do with money or creative integrity. You're like, look, I feel very lucky that we've done for that people like that kind of have gone up and hopefully in quality because we've gotten better.

Everyone's gotten better. So that's kind of a cool thing. Would you ask me to risk? I don't consider it a risk. I don't consider it like bashing your own franchise if it's a good idea if we believe in it. You know, I mean, I'm sure there's plenty of examples you can think of recently that people have bashed their franchises, you know, trying to force a sequel where there was there was no meat on the bone to begin with.

You just don't want to rob the weight of that ending, right? that that yeah that's all i mean if there was a way to go like oh yeah okay he is in purgatory he's kidding his thing or like you know it's you know i look at it like Shane did Shane die right i think the audience is 50-50 split undid Shane really not but like i don't think there's any reason to bring johnwick back without a real reason like the reason it's got to you know it's got to not get you off the hook it's got to draw people back in because i think most of the audience would love to see Canada back. They just don't want to be treated like they're idiots. They don't want to be treated like, hey, give me your 14 bucks and we'll bring

back the guy and I'll shoot more people in the head. Like, I'm part of the audience and I would feel ripped off if I did something like that. So I just think it's about, you know, keeping what is the most important thing. The rest, we love the character. We love the world. And if you love it, you're going to take care of it. So we'll see what happens, man. But none of us are opposed to doing a five. We just don't know how to do it. We're not that smart. And I'll let you go on this. How optimistic are you at this moment on this ongoing discussion about getting a stunt Oscar? I know you've been heavily involved in those discussions. Yeah, no. The academy has been really cool. I've met with a lot of the people involved in that

decision. And the last thing I'll say, in defense of every side. Like it was up until very recently, I couldn't find a handful of stunt people or a handful of academy of people that I ever talked. Like it had become this urban myth that the academy didn't want sons or that stunned people didn't want. Just they never talked. So we started talking. And every single academy person from the top all the way through that I had talked to, which are quite a few, everyone loves the idea of it. They all think it's fair. They all think it's cool. They just haven't figured out the how. I mean, some people, it's a very easy thing. It was such as an Oscar that yes, every person on each side agrees with that. Yeah. Who gets it? Is it for a

sequence? What, like there are a thousand? There's a thousand things to figure out. It's just we we haven't sat down and have it. I think the people involved. And I think it's multi-layers, right? Like one, we think it's fair. Two, we are one of the major departments. Not that any department is bigger than the other. But it does seem that way. And we have some smart people in the academy has some really smart people that are currently figuring it out. And it does take time. There's a bureaucracy. And there's a lot of logistical things to feel out. But we also feel like, and we've made great strides and all the people I've talked to want to see more stunts in the like, you know, part of the show. We like, you know, wardrobe and the music and stuff. And how do

we help out the Oscars give it a little punch? Like, you know, everybody we've met in the last six months have been not just acquiescent. They've been incredibly proactive. So it's not like some of the other thing. I just, because I'm the guy talking to it. And the enthusiasm that every member of the academy has shown me and every courtesy has been incredible. Like I like you never know how it's going to go, right? Because you're still digging it. They've been incredible. So I think in the future, I'm not just, I'm incredibly optimistic that we're going to sort it out. It's just a matter of time. I don't think it's going to be tomorrow, but I don't, I, I think it's at most a ceremony or two away from really, really being a big thing. So, you know, thank you to all

of them, and I think we're in a good spot. I love ending on a very optimistic note, Chad. I can't believe it took it took this long to get you on the podcast. This is going to be hopefully the first of many appearances because, dude, we could talk movies all. Yeah, no, happy to, tip of the iceberg. I really appreciate. I mean, I, you know, I love it. So I appreciate it. I love your podcast. Yeah, so, man, anything you ever need, just give Dave a call. I'm, you know, in and out of the country a lot. But, like, any chance we get, you know, you got anything to chat? Let's chat.

Thanks, buddy. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh. American history is full of infamous tales that continue to captivate audiences, decades or even hundreds of years after they happened. On the infamous America podcast, you'll hear the true stories of the Salem Witch Trials

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