Happy Sad Confused - Chris Weitz

Episode Date: August 22, 2018

Don't even try to pin down Chris Weitz's career, it's a fruitless endeavor. From "American Pie" to "About a Boy" to writing a Star Wars movie, to helming a fact based thriller like "Operation Finale", the only consistency is quality.  Chris joins Josh on this episode to reflect on his unusual childhood (and fascinating parents), the lessons learned from directing "The Golden Compass", how he sold Disney on [SPOILER ALERT] killing off every major character in a Star Wars movie, to directing Oscar Isaac and Ben Kingsley in his latest.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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none of you are safe. New episodes every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts. Today on Happy Sack Confused, filmmaker Chris White's on the journey from American Pie all the way up to his new film Operation Finale. Hey guys, I'm Josh Harowitz. Welcome to another edition of Happy Sack Confused. Today's guest, a filmmaker I greatly admire, an eclectic resume to say the least on Chris

whites. You know him from such diverse works as About a Boy, the Golden Compass, American Pie. He was one of the writers of Rogue One and has a new film out called Operation Finale. It actually opens August 29th, so this is a little bit early, but go seek it out when it is in theaters. It is a thriller that tells the true story of the hunt for the notorious Nazi Adolf Eichmann. And it's in some ways a great two, Hander, anchored by two weighty performances. Oscar Isaac plays the agent who is part of a team charged with hunting down Adolf Eichmann in Argentina, and no less than Academy Award winner, Sir Ben Kingsley plays the notorious Adolf Eichman. Solid thriller all around, great performances, great direction from Chris White's. And always fun to talk to a director that I go way back with. Chris White's, he's kind of popped.

up in my life in weird different ways over the years. We talk about the fact that he was part of a book I did 14 years ago called The Mind of the Modern Movie Maker. I did a collection of interviews with young filmmakers charting their own paths and figuring out what kind of careers they wanted to lead. And Chris and Paul White's brothers were profiled in the book along with 20 odd other filmmakers. Fascinating in retrospect, frankly, to look at the filmmakers that were in my little old book back then. It's folks that were kind of hot at the time, whether it's Kevin Smith or Michelle Gondry, but it's also people that kind of went up and down throughout the years. Patty Jenkins, for instance, was in the book and on the heels of Monster and then didn't direct another film

until Wonder Woman just like a year ago. So fascinating to sort of see the ups and downs of a career. I'm always fascinated by that. So mind to the modern movie maker, hey, you can probably order it on Amazon for like 25 cents now. It's not burning up the bestseller list anymore, but it's a cool snapshot of these filmmakers 14 years ago. So anyway, I got to know Chris White's back then, and since then, our paths have crossed in weird different ways, collaborate with people I know, and also the fact that he directed one of the Twilight films, Moon certainly helped put him a part of my work life since I was such a big, you know, part of the Twilight Saga.

I covered those films like it was nobody's business. So anyway, very cool to have Chris White's on the show. I'm such a fan of so much of his work about a boy, I think, still stands up as one of the great adaptations of Nick Hornby's work and a great Hugh Grant performance, not to mention it gave us young, adorable Nicholas Holt. Aw. So I hope you guys enjoy this conversation with Chris White's. A couple of other housekeeping announcements. One kind of big one that I'm really excited about is that if you listen to this podcast, if you follow my work, you may know the entity known as After Hours.

What is After Hours? After Hours is the comedic side of my brain. It's the absurdist side of my brain. It's the sketches I've been doing for many years at MTV on MTV.com primarily. And it's something I take a lot of pride in. They're scripted crazy bits with your favorite movie stars. and you might have noticed or maybe not that we haven't done one in a little while. Fear not, we are back in a very big way.

As of August 23rd, I don't know when you're listening to this, but as of August 23rd, Thursday, August 23rd, after hours, I'm very thrilled to say, is relaunching with Comedy Central. I am so stoked that we are part of the Comedy Central family. It feels right. The team is excited about it. We've already been shooting some amazing sketches that we have lined up for you. The first one out of the gate is with Sam Rockwell and Ben Schwartz, and it is awesome.

And I can say that because it's really on them. Their performances are amazing. And we've got a lot of familiar and not so familiar after hours regulars coming up in the weeks to come. So that's kind of a tease, but I encourage you to go to Comedy Central's, Facebook page, Comedy Central's YouTube page, and follow me on social media, Joshua Horowitz. Hopefully you won't be able to avoid my incessant promotion of After Hours, because I'm very proud of this new incarnation. It's bigger and better in many ways. We're putting a lot of resources into it, and it's all the stuff hopefully you've known to love in After Hours and just done

on a bigger canvas. So there you go. Lots of shenanigans to come. But in the meanwhile, I hope you enjoyed this side of my brain, which is still a little silly, but a little substantive to these kind of long foreign conversations on Happy Say I Confused. So enjoy this one with filmmaker Chris White's. Go check out Operation Finale when it's in theaters on August 29th. And remember to review, rate and subscribe to Happy Say I Confused on whatever podcast platform you use. And without any further ado, here's Chris White's. Should we reminisce about old times and new times? Lots of cover. Are we doing this?

This is one of the things where you're recording it before you've been now? I just hit record just a second ago. I got all the incriminating talk about New Yorkers on there. Yeah, I said, I went on the limb and said that people like New York, hot take. It's so controversial. Chris White's good to see you, man. It's good to see you, too. You look young and sprightly as ever.

Was that the adjectives to assign to me? I don't know. Well, young is nice. Sprightly, I think, is good, too. I will take those two. What adjectives do? Now I'm, now it's all on me to reciprocate. No, I've aged.

No, you have. You're a shell of a man. I went to this college reunion a while ago, and I looked at all of my contemporaries at the time. I said, man, these people look terrible. They're all like balding and fat, and they looked like they were hit with a death ray and just escaped. And I thought, wait a second. I must look that way, too. That's not true.

That's just not correct. It's always good to see you. Yeah, I feel like it has been a while. The last time I might have seen you, might have been on the set of your wonderful film A Better Life, as I recall. That sounds about right. Right. But we go way back to, of course, the Twilight Days.

And before that, look what I took out. The book that you were kind enough to be a part of 14 years ago. Mind of the modern movie maker. This book is available at Reminder Bins Everywhere. Wherever you watch, 99 cents on Amazon. We might go back into this at some point during this conversation to see what you answered and see if the answer still hold up. Okay I'm trying to remember. Yeah, well, I've got it in print so you don't have to remember Congratulations on the new movie though. Thank you very much. So Operation Finale is the new film. I've seen it. It's a great piece of work. We were just talking about the great Oscar Isaac

He is the great Oscar. It doesn't get much better than that right now. Pretty extraordinary. Yeah, was he was he associated to this before you came on board? No, but he was the first person that I thought of and this studio. Actually, for once, we were kind of all in agreement. And we wanted him to do this so much that we waited for him to get done with some other stuff. We waited about a year to start the film. And it was totally worth it from my point of view. So there's, I mean, we're going to circle around to a bunch of things. But let's start with Operation Finale, since I'm sure it's on top of your mind as well. There has been a bit of a gap in terms of feature directing for you. Even busy writing a bit and TV stuff at some. writing a lot of stuff. The last time I directed was about seven years ago. I have three children, and directing is very bad for families, really, because, I mean, if you do it right, you should be obsessive about it. And it certainly seems to require those kinds of hours. I mean,

the workday is 12 hours at minimum. And you end up shooting in some place that is not home. So that's tough. And I'm also quite lazy, so I don't actually want to wake up as early. is required. So that's why I do it about once every five or six years. I think like, oh, God. So is this the first film you've directed since you've had kids, or they've come of age a little bit? Let me see. No, well, we had, my wife

and I had our first baby when we were working on Golden Compass. So they've kind of, let me see, now I've got a six year old as well, so that was probably a little bit after a better life. But now you've got the brood. This is the first time with an actual fully functioning partridge family on wheels kind of thing going on.

kind of an amazing number of children to have to think about. How does that do you for it? Jesus. How does that affect your focus in terms of you're talking about the hours required of being both a parent and a filmmaker? Are you able to, when you're in like the throes of directing for a few months? I think I'm a much worse parent when I'm directing a movie because there's just not enough time and you come home and theoretically have every right to be exhausted and then there are children who have no particular could regard for that. Right.

We have to tell the story of capturing Adolf Eichmann. Don't you understand five-year-olds? I want to impress upon them the importance of remembering the Holocaust when they want to play some stupid game. Priorities. And so, and, you know,

we were shooting nights a lot, so I'd be sleeping during the day, trying generally to let them remember who I was. We were all together in Buenos Aires, which was great, that we could be there. But it's not an ideal scenario for bringing up kids. I think the good thing, perhaps, is that, you know,

there are always a lot of pressures to do with making a movie and a lot of stress is put on what can actually be very small decisions. And you get some perspective. Yes. So what's the climate like right now for getting a film like this off the ground? Like in 2018 or whenever you actually got the money for this, was this a tough one or was it like once you get someone like Oscar who's obviously got cash in a number of different ways,

Is it relatively smooth selling or a lot? Relatively smooth, but I think that's an anomaly. I think that it's very hard to get movies of a middle size, which are not about things exploding or super-powered people punching each other in the face. Did you consider adding that in, like, just like a little, like, glorious bastards like changing, you know, Hitler dies at the uncomfortable thing? My 11-year-old son said that it would be great of Captain America were in it, and I would have sorted things out really quickly. To be fair, Captain Mergo was around, according to Kavanaugh, Yeah, he was around. He did punch Hitler in the face, which Hitler never lived down.

Probably made him lose the war. That shock to his self-esteem. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But MGM really believed in it from the beginning. The then head of MGM, Gary Barber, had a really strong connection to the subject. I think it's, this is the kind of movie that my brother and I tend to make, and it's very, we're making a sort of a dying kind of movie. which is to say a studio film made for grown-ups. And by the way, I love movies about people punching each other in the face. I really dug Infinity War. Thor Ragnarok was my favorite movie of the last year,

actually shot by my DP Javier de Sarrobe. That's a fun name to say. And I loved it, so I've got nothing against that. So talk to me a little bit about personal connections to this one. About this material resonates. I know your dad grew up in German. He was born in 23, in 1933. He was born in 23.

He was sent to England when Hitler came to power. And he eventually emigrated to the US, joined the army, and went into the counterintelligence corps and the OSS. And went back at the end of the war undercover. And so he had a great expertise in the Nazi period and ended up writing biographies. biographies of prominent Nazi party members. So, so interrupt us for a second.

I'm just curious. Like, growing up, did he talk about the stuff with you guys? Like, I mean, because he, we've talked about this in years past. Like, he, your dad is the most interesting man in the world. He was kind of the most interesting man in the world. He didn't, you sort of get little dribbles of it, but he and, and the other OSS members signed the equivalent of a NDA. But not in the Trumpy kind of way, but in A, be responsible towards the people you worked with that kind of way.

And so he didn't talk about it very much. But I will find occasionally a letter that he wrote to a friend of his or a short story, which is very clearly autobiographical. And there are accounts in some of the books about the OSS about what he did. And it's pretty, pretty ballsy stuff. Did you grow up watching films set in that time? Yeah, a lot of it. I was just, I was just writing about this that it was tough to watch that with my dad because he had an amazing eye for detail and he specialized in German Order of Battle.

So any time there was a scene with like German staff officers, it was impossible to watch because he'd point out everything that was wrong with the uniforms. Come on! Yeah, and I was like, I just wanted to see these Nazis talk about it. strategy for Operation Barbarossa. Now we've got to talk about uniforms. Do you remember when, I mean, Adolf Eichmann's one of those characters in history that I think everybody has a certain level of familiarity with.

Maybe it's just sort of like a touch point. Like he did bad things. Something as minimal as that to getting into the nitty gritty of it. Were you well aware of sort of the myth and the reality of Eichmann growing up? I was kind of aware of the myth. I think that if people know about him, They know that he was on trial, possibly they know that trial was in Israel and televised, and they might know about Hannah Arendt's book, Eichmann, in Jerusalem.

That gives a certain picture of Eichmann as a kind of functionary, the gray functionary who executed the evil work of the final solution. I think that the truth of the historical person is a bit different and more complicated inasmuch as he was quite ambitious. he was a careerist. He was a proficient liar who he lied about knowing Hebrew. He lied about having been born in then Palestine. He lied about what he did at the trial. And at times he was actually a very avid pursuer of the Nazi ideology. So the notion that he is a perfect example of the kind of guy in a cubicle. Right. The functionary. Just transposing numbers is probably incorrect. He's much more of a

chameleon. And this film definitely gets at that. Like, you're seeing a few different faces that he's able to kind of portray. And some are, like, authentic. I mean, clearly, like, he probably loved his wife. I think he did. He was a family man. And he loved his children. And I think that we have to acknowledge that the people who do horrible things also can love their children. This is a hard one to accept. But I think once you do that, you get a little closer to forming a useful idea of, you know, where would I go or where would the people who live around me go if the certain pressures were applied? Right. So you cast the great Sir Ben Kingsley, another great in this one. Yeah, he is a great. Who has, yes, Sir Ben has acted various characters and various

different sides of this story. You know, obviously in Schindler's list, he played a Jew. And he also played Simon Wiesenthal. I think he's going to be playing a Mossad agent soon. So he's kind of got all the territory covered. He could do his one-man show of the... Yeah, he actually, I don't believe he had played a Nazi before. Maybe I'm wrong.

But certainly not a figure on this order. and I think it was sort of emotionally challenging for him but he's the guy most suited for the task and he's amazing in the movie So, you know, and especially as like you kind of progress in the story

there's some kind of like kind of what you want, right? Like these kind of tete-a-tete these two-hander scenes between Ben Kings Lee and Oscar. Between Oscar and Sir Ben. Yeah. So your role as far as in your head

like are you setting the actors loose? I mean, is it on the page and you sort of like you guys know what you're doing, do your thing? Or is there a lot of conversation, whether in the weeks leading up or the day of? What's your kind of philosophy about that kind of thing? Well, I feel like in the weeks and months leading up to it, you know, I've had, I've been sort of working on the script with Matt. And so the notes are sort of in there. I have a lot of trust in Oscar's intelligence and Sir Ben's intelligence and judgment and their abilities. So on the day, I'm probably just getting out of their way,

unless it feels like something is going badly off kilter. It didn't. I think to a degree somewhat experimentally, I asked Sir Ben to hide something from me, to have something he wasn't telling me. I still actually don't know what that was, or in fact, whether he thought that was just a stupid idea. Yeah, I got this, Chris. But I thought it was, you know, essentially, Eichmann is a very difficult character to get your finger on, and I sort of wanted that to be part of the film as well. And, no, I just trusted them very much.

And it was really just kind of clearing the path for them. So, like, where is your head at in terms of we were talking about sort of, you had a relatively smooth sailing and getting this one going, but that is certainly not the norm nowadays. We're getting something in theaters of this budget level, of this genre, et cetera. I mean, I would think, like, every, virtually every filmmaker is wrestling with us right now. And it's like, well, I guess I'll just do everything for Netflix now or do a TV series, or I'll do a $150 million superhero movie.

It seems like there are three options. I think that's right, unfortunately. I think that for somebody who grew up like me, making stuff for the big screen and thought that that was where it was at, and we were very sort of, we looked down our noses at TV, and now to see that TV is making the most serious stories and doing them so well, it is a conundrum. It's like about a boy is a, that's like a Netflix movie today, probably.

Yeah, right? Like, it's not a studio movie, which is, like, horrible to say, but... No, I think that may be so. It's a challenge, because I still love the idea of a bunch of strangers going into a darkened room and having a communal experience. I think that that is the religion to which I subscribe. But that is simply not the way that people are viewing things these days. They are laying down in bed, I guess. with their laptops on their stomachs. And that's kind of not ideal, but on the other hand,

I think that Netflix and various streaming services have allowed for these extraordinarily novelistic stories to get told. Whereas in some ways, movies are a bit disappointing in as much as you have to get it all sorted out within two and a half hours, and that makes everything kind of rushed. Right.

At least that is if you're telling sort of an American narrative story. Obviously, art cinema, can work in entirely different time scales. But sometimes you feel making a studio film that you, first of all, that every third act is the same. It's just a bunch of people running around shouting, and then they win at the end.

So really it's like, let's make a good second act. And everything feels too much like a machine. Whereas I think TV or what we used to call TV is really interesting. Is there then some change? jealousy around, for instance, I guess they're recycling historic materials, right, as a TV series right now. And that's like a whole outlaw conversation we could have about that film, I know. Yeah, well, I've had, so, yes, they're doing his dark materials for TV. I think that's great.

I think it's a form that's long enough to be able to handle the detail and complexity of it. It was probably foolish of me to think that I could do that within the space of even a two-and-a-half-hour movie for one book. and I think that it is made by people who will not be cowed by the potentially difficult religious material in the book. So I'm actually really, really looking forward to it. As much as I wish that I could have gotten my stuff onto the screen, I'd be just as happy if somebody else did. Well, just as happy. No, that's not true. Let's be real.

Okay. Well, again, we'll circle around back. Let's go back to the beginning again. You were born here, I believe. I was born in New York. I was born in what was then Doctors Hospital, New York, which has been renamed, I think. Is that Mount Sinai now? Anyway, yeah.

Kim Vage here, most interesting man in the world, was your dad. A very interesting family, to say the least. If you dig into the White's lineage, there's a lot of artistic merit in the background, actors. Talk to me sort of just like culturally speaking, like what was discussed in the household. Was it a film-going household? Was there a lot of value placed on the arts? Definitely a lot of value placed on the arts. You know, my dad was essentially a German immigrant,

although he sounded much like me, which I sort of sound like some sort of fancy pants, half-English version of some bullshit American who went to England to school. That's all I was going to describe you. Thank you for repeating me to it. Please put that in the letter. And my mom's dad was Czech, and her mom was Mexican, so it was very kind of international.

household. Yeah, a lot of stress was put on the arts in a way. New York is not really necessarily like the rest of America, but certainly our apartment was like this kind of little pocket of Europe within New York. And movie going, I don't know. My dad only did really serious things like read books in the study and things like that. So he didn't really go out, certainly not to any kind of popcorn movies. But of course, I came of age in the late 70s and early 80s, this amazing time for a popular film. And also, my grandfather was an agent to a lot of European talent. So he was Ingmar Bergman's agent. Oh, wow. He was Billy Wilder's agent, Max Fonsito's agents, Leib Oman. So I sort of grew up, at least knowing that these people

were in the kind of life of my family and that these kinds of movies mattered as well. But probably not as much as Star Wars when you first saw that. Nothing really mattered as much as Star Wars. When I saw that, and I kind of was able to close the circle on a Star Wars obsession that began in 1977. I was seven years old. It was amazing to be able to write Rogue One. And I remember when I was called in for this meeting, a meeting that I'd hoped for kind of forever when they're making new Star Wars movies. I was going, please don't be Boba Fett.

Please don't be Fort because they wouldn't tell me what it was ahead of time. And I think Boba Fett is ridiculous. So meaning you were a number of fan or just the idea of exploring this mysterious character is just the wrong idea to do? He didn't find him mysterious. I just thought he was a schmo with a helmet who died by accident. Like, I was not impressed with it. The reason Boba Fed is so popular is that when you got the early bird edition of the Star Wars figurines, like you had to collect all the box tops to get Boba Fett.

So he became somehow desirable. Right. Any guy that makes his debut in the Star Wars holiday special can't. be oh man i watched that again recently i was going to say it's unwatchable it's an unwatchable piece of it's it's so painful it's unbelievable yeah like that they yeah i remember that my deep unhappiness when it came out i was so excited yeah i knew something was going wrong why am i feeling so sleepy watching my heroes yeah um so how did so how did the meeting come about you put your name out like you told team whites like if anything happens let them know like i mean yes

Of course, I told my agent, the lovely David Loveliner, that if there was ever a chance to do Star Wars, I would drop everything and do it. And I had done some work for Disney. I'd written Cinderella for them. So maybe I was kind of in that conversation to people that they might be comfortable with. And I just got the call.

And that was quite mysterious. You sort of show up. And they start talking about Star Wars. And it gradually emerges that they were talking about writing the movie of the opening crawl. And that is what I would have wanted to do. I felt so lucky to be in that position. And then I just tried not to freak out and blow the possibility. I have to say, that film seems like a miracle to me.

It's a great piece of work, what Rogue One turned into. Oh, thanks. I mean, by all accounts, all of you guys. And it was certainly a team effort. It would seem like by different. There were a lot. I mean, there was a murderer's row of screenwriters, myself excluded, who eventually worked on it. Did you work in tandem with the others, or was it kind of like your turn at that after Gary had...

Gary Wooda did the first draft, and then I came in and did a couple of drafts. And after me came, I think Tony Gilroy, Christopher McCory, Scott Burns. I believe David Arndt had some notes on it. And then Tony Gilroy came back on again. And it's astonishing to me, from my point of view, how well it turned out, given how many writers were working on at any one time. But I think all credit to Gareth Edwards,

because I think that what he laid down aesthetically and in terms of the feel of the movie is really borne out. Yeah. Even when you were on the project was the ending, what it was, generally speaking, like that none of them survived? I'm just curious because, like,

how that got to the end? I'm still shocked that that survived. That is one thing that I will take credit or blame for, which is I thought that they should all die. Amazing. Congratulations. The opportunity, and I think it had occurred to Gary and Gareth at one point, but I thought, ah, Disney will never let us do it. Yeah. But how did they react when you threw that out there? Like, I was in a meeting with Alan Horn and Gareth and Kathy Kennedy and me, and I think Curie Hart from the story department.

And Alan kind of said, well, I mean, I can see how, you know, how they probably ought to die because we don't. I don't see him in Star Wars, and inside I was just jumping for joy, which is, I suppose, a bit gruesome, but I thought like, oh, this is amazing. We get to do this thing. And I think it was important to sort of convey that the true seriousness of the Galactic Civil War. You know? I'm with you. People don't take it seriously, no, I think.

Did you, I was a fan of solo for what it's worth, and I know that that's it. I really liked it, too. Yeah, I really enjoyed it. Yeah, I thought it was great. I was a fan of Solo, and I was a fan of The Last Jedi, maybe you're not. No, I love The Last Jedi. I've had many long arguments about that one, too. Yeah, I avoid arguments about it, but I did think Ryan did an amazing job,

and the decisions that he made were all along the questions that were important to handle, and he did some great, great things. There's some great ideas in it. Are you still involved in any way in that universe? No, I mean, it's kind of like once your security clearance is gone, you don't hear anything about it. If you literally try to use the badge at Lucasfilm and it's like, wait, I swear, this worked last week, guys, let me in. It's kind of is like that. And I understand because it's very, the possibility of things leaking is extremely damaging, not just kind of financially, but I think emotionally people are working on it and trying to come up with cool stuff.

So what do you, okay, so now as a fan, let's just two fans talking, what do you want to see in the Star Wars universe going forward? There's all this talk else. like Ryan seems to be working on his own trilogy unrelated to anything we know. Right. That sounds great. That sounds, I'm in for that. The Obi-Wan thing that keeps popping up its head. Yeah, I think that would be excellent.

I mean, this is all like if you get the right person to play him, if they have the right sort of angle of approach on it. That would be fascinating to me. I'm looking forward to Lando, I mean, to Old Leland. Lando, as it were, in the next one. O.G. Lando. I would love to see Glover. What is his first name? Donald Glover, yeah, yeah.

God, how old am I? Donald Glover in a young Lando movie. I thought he was fantastic and solo. But I also want to say this. Yes. And I hope this won't seem like some kind of corporate treason. I'm okay with Star Wars now. Like, I don't, I feel like I've laid to rest my obsession.

Right. In a good way, right? Let somebody else freak out about it and get exercised about these fan issues. I had a very similar conversation where you were sitting with Simon Pegg. And he had very much a similar thing. Was that the one where he got in trouble for saying? Every time I talk to Simon, he gets into trouble. Yeah, he talked about JJ and the lineage and all that whole thing.

And just letting it go, like, don't remain upset. And I think he was right, actually. I think it is, you know, well, it's not for us anymore necessarily. Star Wars was for kids. Nor should it be. I mean, it's for everybody, but it's really, it is. It's for kids.

Yes, I mean, we are still the kids in some way that it was made for in the first place, but we got to let go. Yeah. Okay, so growing up in New York, you go off to boarding school, I believe. I went to St. Paul's School in London, England. And that's where you became the, What was, how did you term yourself again? Oh, some of fancy pants.

Well, you know, I started sounding English when I was there because I was the only American kid in this British boarding school, British public school. And it just got to be a pain in the ass to have people ask where I was from or like occasionally crack wise about it. Right. And so that's where my language started warping. Had Paul, your older brother Paul, who obviously you've collaborated with often over the years,

did he proceed you? Did he go over there too? He wanted no part of that stuff. He was truly interested in, let me see, psychedelics and knocking around New York. Going back to the book that you participated in many years ago for me, I think we talked about what you thought you each were going to turn into way back when, and I think you joked that Paul was going to be a drug dealer. Probably, yeah.

He's actually the most solid citizen I know now, which just goes to show you. But no, he ended up going to Wesleyan, which is a breeding ground for filming. As you know, you've got John Turtletown. Congrats on the Meg, John. Michael Bay. There's some other ones, too. On the top of my head, I don't know. Miguel Arteta.

Oh, okay. Mike White. So, yeah, so quite a surprise. So, okay, so jumping around a bit early in the career, somehow you guys end up being these monumentally successful screenwriters pretty early on. Oh, I hope it's monumentally successful. Well, I mean, I mean, you're doing a bit of script doctrine, but you're also getting credit on something like ants,

which I think was the first future credit, writing for no less than Woody Allen, pretty crazy. Did you ever share time in a room with Woody Allen? I did share time in a room with Woody Allen. You're probably not supposed to say that now, but I did read the same error as him. Yeah, when he came in to read his partner, of course, you know, the strange thing about making animated films is that it's a really very short run for the actor. I would read opposite some of the actors who are opposite Jennifer Lopez and Jean-Hen, Hackman, which is fantastic. Sharon Stone.

So, yeah, and of course, they're recording one by one as opposed to. I did meet Woody Allen. He didn't really seem to take notice of me as a sentient being. I think, probably he's just used to, at the time, he was too used to be, like, hey, Woody, hey, like in which movie

was it where someone just won't leave him alone? Abby Singer. Might be Annie Hall, right? Might be Annie Hall, yeah. It would be, hopefully, I'll be singer, that would be weird to call them that in a different movie. Yeah. Okay, so then in the midst of that, you guys, American Pie comes around. You essentially co-directed it, even, I believe, you know, right, okay. Which becomes an insane phenomenon.

Did you, was your dad proud of the way you directed Jason Biggs having sex with the pie? He was, he was, you know, I've talked about my dad as though he were very kind of hoity-to-oity, but he was very, very proud of American Pie. And it kind of had the humor that he had described as Berlin humor, which is, you know, the Germans often aren't terribly funny, but they do do a line in potty humor and gross sexual humor. And so actually, sort of per capita, the most popular region for American Pie was in Germany.

Really? Yeah, more than America. Wow. They got us. Yeah, he would defend us against all comers, even his old friends, his all kind of culturally elite friends, he would understand. And then what about, because similarly in that time frame that Chuck and Buck comes around, which is a strange anomaly in the career. You mentioned a couple of your friends that were involved in that, Miguel directed it. Miguel directed it, Mike White wrote, wrote, write it.

Professional writer. Yeah, Mike, Mike White, wrote. And starred in it. Well, it was just after we'd finished shooting American Pie, we had no idea what was going to happen with it and thought, well, we've made this kind of broad studio comedy. We've got to nail down our indie cred in some way. And so I can't get more indie than Chuck and Buck. It's pretty indie. Do you get recognized for Chuck and Buck ever?

Like, do people... Every once in a while, there'll be a certain look that comes into a, like, movie. concession person's eye, and I think, like, oh, this. I know that look. But it has gotten me really good indie cred occasionally with people, because I think, like, the group of people who've actually seen that movie are kind of like the few, the proud. Did you learn much about, did acting and that help you working with actors?

I think it did because I realized, first of all, how difficult it is. I found it very unsettling to be in front of the camera, even a tiny little, DV cam, let alone a gigantic machine like an RA or something that's staring at you. And sort of the, how unnatural it actually, I mean, most people think that acting is just pretending you go and you kind of fuck around for a while. And then you have an amazing life or whatever, you spiral into addiction. But it's really, really difficult to pretend to be another human being in a condensing way when hot lights are being pointed at you and 30 people or watching your every move.

So I think it gave me a bit of an understanding of that and also a notion that less is more in terms of acting. And it's because I think the camera sort of reads your mind to a degree. And for that, occasionally what can happen to theater actors who are used to trying to reach the back row is that they need to sort of modulate to a great degree. And also this happens with child actress as well, where what has been required of them throughout their,

career since they were three was to shout than to sort of bring things down. Is there, looking back at the films you've directed or co-directed, is there an actor that you feel you've stood most in awe of or weren't the most from about technique, about some of the things you were just talking about? Can you think of like, is there an epiphany? I think both should have been an Oscar amazing in different ways.

Oscar somehow organically doesn't put a foot wrong. I think that he cannot give a false beat, and that's pretty amazing because you don't feel the strain of his doing that with SBK, with Sir Ben Kingsley. Please say that's how people refer to him. People do. You see this immense talent and technique brought to bear in very specific moments. so that he, for instance, at the table read, had the script completely memorized. That is the first part of his preparation was to get that down dead.

And then the rest of it is, he described it to me once in an email as taking aim and pulling back his bow. He's really in this kind of strange preparatory period in which he's deliberating in his mind what he's going to do. And then you see it happen. and it's not method. It is technique, and that's incredibly refined and amazing to watch. So, okay, going back into the filmography,

if I got this down right, you work with Chris Rock and down to Earth. That's a tough thing to remake Heaven Can Wait. You guys tackle that one. Not sure anybody wanted us to. Could this were going for it. It was great. No, it was a fantastic experience.

The film did quite well. Did you ever have to meet with, like, Buck Henry or Warren Beatty or anything like that? No, although I have met Warren Beatty a couple of times. He said he had a crush on my mom. It might be the least surprising news I've ever. He was pretty great and every bit as charming as you would think. But I have to point out that heaven can wait, was itself a remake of here comes Mr. Jordan. So it wasn't our fault.

about a boy still stands up as just like a phenomenal piece of work thank you very much yeah i watched it again for the first time in about 15 years the other day was that a purposeful like i'm gonna sit down and watch us and like see if it holds up or was it like i've been no well i've what was it that we were doing i was with paul king who's directing pinocchio which i'm writing for him and for disney and we found ourselves watching it probably in order to procrastinate, but I think we were telling ourselves that it was about, you know, father and a sort of analogous father and son type roles. And I found it very... Is Pinocchio ending with killing me softly? Is that what you were saying? Thinking about it.

I found it very squirm-inducing to watch it, I got to say, because I hadn't seen it in so long, and you think, oh, I did that, that's odd. And then suddenly you remember the decisions that you made about where you placed the camera and how you're going to cut it and everything. But thank you for saying nice things about it. I sometimes feel like everyone just wished I had stopped making movies after that stuff. That's not true. That's definitely not true because we have other fine films to talk about.

But what is the, is there one overriding memory of that shoot? I mean, this is unrelated to the actual shooting of it, but it's like, I've gone to know Nicholas Holt in recent years. It's just amazing to see what he's physically and just... Yeah, he's

a total studburger. And you produced a single man, I noticed. Yes, too. Was that, like, unrelated? Was that just a random coincidence that he ended up in that? It wasn't. It was Tom Ford wanted Nick for the role, and so I was able to kind of make that connection. I'm sure it would have wanted to do it anyway.

I can't take any credit for that. But I was happy that it was doing it. But when you think back to that production, is it working with the indefinable Hugh Grant? Is it... Well, that was a fantastic experience, and I don't know that I'll ever have so much fun with an actor. as I did then with Hugh and Paul and I did

we really spend a lot of time together he had just broken up with Elizabeth Hurley I think he didn't have anyone to hang around with like all his friends were her friends too

so he's kind of serone digging the bottom of the barrel and like you'll have to do for that six months yeah he still answers my emails

to choose credit I think I think, well, I was remembering the other day, I don't think Nick would mind my saying that, like on the last shot that we did with him, we called Cut and, you know, check the gate, which you did at that time, and he started crying because he was 12,

and it was a big experience for him, and it was ending, you know. Thank you for giving me that information to hold over him now. I appreciate it. And I was very touched by it. Sweet. Yeah. So we touched a little bit about the experience of making Golden Compass, which I'm sure there's some, I mean, it sounds like you enjoyed the shoot of it. I did enjoy the shoot of it, even though it was 100 days, and that's kind of brutal. Crazy, ambitious project, very large budget, needless to say, a lot of eyeballs on it.

I mean, it's probably hard to encapsulate, like, what the lesson is of a production like that. But is there something that you took away from that that you're applying to opportunities in the years since? I think that one lesson is that the bigger the budget, the more stress there is, the more people are rightly going to feel that you should deliver something that they can then resell on a very grand scale. So that was tricky. I think also that the problems at the beginning are going to be the problems at the end, no matter how hard you try to avoid them. So I can remember talking about the religious themes in a meeting before pre-production. And I thought, it's okay, I'm going to kind of sublimate these things, and it's not going to be a problem. And, of course, it did become a huge problem. But, you know, having lost a lot of sleep over it and feeling sad about not having my cut,

I now sort of feel like I can understand where everybody behaved the way that they did. I don't have, you know. Was it essentially the studio getting a bit of cold feet? once they got into post and just sort of like, actually, we may have talked about this in pre-production and being cool with it, but now that we think about it, we need this to make $400 million or best. I think the studio got cold feet about the effect

of the portrayal of a sort of parallel universe Catholic Church in America. And they also probably thought that I was stinking it up. And the reason is that if you see a green screen, a cut of a green screen intensive movie early on, there's really no way to tell how it's going. There's only a lot of our opportunity to freak out. And as it happened, the movie ended up winning the Oscar for visual effects

well deserved by the people who did it. But I think that all of the beauty that was brought into it was lacking, you know, the first time you see a cut 12 weeks into post-production. So you lost a bit of goodwill from some like frantic executives that were like a little like the sea. I told you that he's not going to be able to. I think people started freaking out. And, you know, maybe it was a project that shouldn't have been done at that time by that studio in that country by that director. As a matter of fact, all of it. I think that the BBC's version will have a much better shot at being true. It's interesting because, like, you know, you think of, like, especially I've talked a lot of filmmakers and see the progression after, you know, a project.

like that that is so intensive and you think oh often they do kind of the pallet cleanser and I would have guessed like oh yeah then that's when he does a better life but no you in between that and you do New Moon which again had a lot of eyeballs. It did have a lot of eyeballs on it and had some

challenges given it was the whole I mean like there's no one that went through that whole Twilight thing outside of the actors maybe than me like I cover that with those movies like crazy but like the whole question of Jacob and the casting and all of that and you were all part of that Right. Was it, did it feel, did everything still feel like less pressure compared to what you went through on Golden Compass?

It did because the budget was much smaller. In terms of the special effect load and action load, it was much smaller. So everything was a step down in size for me at that point, which was handy. And it was also a case in which delivering to the fans what they wanted was exactly the thing that was going to do well for the movie as opposed to, what would theoretically do badly for the movie, in the case of the Golden Compass. Were you, I mean, I'm curious, like, when you were making that film, like, is that a film, like, as much, was it for yourself, too?

Like, is that a film that you would have been interested in? Because, like, you are serving a very specific fan base there that, like, loves those books. And your task really was to execute what they already kind of love and just sort of visualize it and create a narrative around it. But I'm just curious, like, did you have the same connection to the material that that? I probably didn't. I mean, that being said, I really love Stephanie Meyer, and we got along really well. I like to think that I was able to understand the material. I loved working with the kids. That was what appealed most to me, probably. I thought they were great.

And I do remember for what it's worth, I'll say it's because you can't, that they were, I mean, they loved all the directors, I know, but I think they had a special place in their heart for you. They always thought, no, they didn't that, truly. That's nice. I found myself missing them, actually. But it probably wasn't, you know, I wasn't the fan base by any means. I really wanted to succeed with a film that had all of these elements and to make a large studio picture at the time. I don't really care about that. I mean, obviously, this is a studio film and I wanted to do very well, but I'm talking about the combination of, you know, creature design and production design and massive builds and all these kinds of things. So that ambition is not in you right now.

It's just not, you don't want to, like, you've, no. I did my, I tried that, it was fine, but. Yeah, I think we bring to bear a lot of resources on Operation Finale, but it's, it's, it's a suspense thriller with strong psychological elements, as opposed to a sort of world building in any way. Got it. So checking off the box of like, you know, you checked off the Star Wars box growing up, there's no comic book, Marvel DC box to participate, even as a writer, like is that? Oh, I would love to write one of those.

I really would. I mean, I don't know how much more I could write a film to my taste than Thor Ragnarok was because I thought it really delivered on what a comic book movie should be and really kind of refine

the palette of that. But directing those things is a meat grinder. And I don't think I could do it with three kids in tow. Who are the characters that you gravitate towards nowadays in terms of in those Marvel and DC movies were growing up, who were guys?

You know, I always loved the vision. I think he's pretty great. Maybe because I'm like him, I'm kind of like don't always act like a human being. I can change the density of my body as well. I was for good. I love the vision. But I thought that Thor and Ragnarok was delightful as well.

It's kind of like bluff, hearty buffoonery. It was great. The genius Tycho is amazing, to say the least. I do want to mention the other, I think one other directing effort that we haven't mentioned, or I mentioned it quickly, A Better Life, which, for those that haven't seen it, is a great piece of work. Thank you. Again, one that I would imagine was a personal film in many ways to you, the immigrant experience relating back to your own family. And just great that you kind of like give this platform for Damien Bashir, who ended up getting an Oscar nomination and kind of expanded the opportunities in his career.

Yeah, that was very satisfying because people hadn't heard of him in America very much. I mean, he'd been in weeds, but to really strongly believe that he was going to carry this film and not only do so, but Excel. I actually think he should have gotten the Oscar that year, but that the artist just swept everything along with it. I'll say it, yeah, no, come on. But for me to see him get nominated was one of the sort of proudest moments in my career. So going forward, we're spreading the good word of Operation Finale. As you said, you're working with Paul King, who did great work on these last two, Paddington films. Mr. Cynchins, Mighty Bouch, Arthur Marengi.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so Pinocchio is this, I mean, I also thought, frankly, what Kenneth did and what you did with Cinderella. I thought that was an exceptional adaptation as well. Oh, thanks. I had a great time working on that. What is the task at hand? Pinocchio's been tried, like, in many. I know there have been a lot of different attempted adaptations of this.

in the last 10, 15 years. What do you, what's the task at hand? What's the take on it? I think the task at hand with the Disney ones is to, I mean, you're really living up to people's memories of a film rather than the film itself. So in that regard, it's not a remake or a reboot, but to capture that sense of innocence, but also of darkness in the film, which I think is probably what people remember most of all. to do what

kind of a version of what Disney did at the time, which was to use all of the tools at their disposal to make a beautiful film. It was their second feature film. And they kind of pulled out all the stops in terms of making what for them was then the version of CGI would make beautiful effects. Yeah.

And you get to let Paul do all the hard work. He does all the hard work. and then I talk about it on podcast. Okay, before you go, I almost forgot. Let's look at your questionnaire at the back of this silly book. So I did this book about 14 years ago. It was profiling a bunch of wonderful up-and-coming

and already established filmmakers, and you and Paul were part of it. And part of it was a rapid-fire question and answer. So let's see if your answers hold up. I'm just curious. Okay. This is like the dating game with oneself. And Paul obviously answered these as well.

So first film you ever saw, let's see if it's still the same film. I think it was Midway. Correct. Well done. At the Sag Harbor movie theater, which burned down as being rebuilt. Very nice. Favorite film of all time?

I probably said Lawrence of Arabia. You were very consistent. Good. Favorite line in a film? Nobody's perfect. Oh, my God. You know yourself so well. What movie do you consider your guilty pleasure?

That one I'm not sure. Okay. This is one I would definitely agree with you. I mean, I don't feel guilty about it, but you said point break. Point break, yes. Yes, that's about right. Pretty amazing. Favorite movie character of all time.

Favorite movie character of all time? Holy mackerel. I don't know. What was it? Max Fisher, Rushmore. Max Fisher. Oh, that was Paul, I think. That sounds like Paul.

I don't know. Was it me? It says you? Oh, really. A favorite movie snack food? Oh, it was probably Goobers. Yeah. That was your Doobers for?

You know precisely. The time was Goober's. That was the Goober's time. Yeah, yeah. What is it now? No, no, I still like Goober's, very much. Favorite director of all time? I might have said Kurosawa.

Yes. I think that's probably still right. Okay. Most impressive filmmaker working today back in 2004 could still be said today probably. Oh, geez. Would it be in the Cone Brothers, maybe? That's a good one, but you said Scorsese. Scorsese?

I'll accept that guy. Uh, like anybody cares what I had to say about who was the most impressive at the time, but, uh, yeah. Oh, this is interesting. This applies to what you were talking about before. He said, greatest weakness as a director, you said, people pleasing was probably, yeah. You actually said need for sleep, and you were talking about that at a bit already. Oh, that's true. Yeah.

Um, the perfect movie is, complete the sentence. The perfect movie is under two hours long. An hour and 20 minutes long. Hour and 20 minutes. Wow. That's too short. A nice, crisp 72 minute. Yeah, exactly.

A piece of advice you have for aspiring filmmakers. It's probably something like just go ahead and do it rather than thinking about it. We're more in a negative space, I think. You said, don't do it. Oh, don't do it. Oh, yeah, no, that was my answer for a while, which is like, don't do it because if you don't listen to that and go ahead and do it anyway, then you probably want it to. That makes perfect sense. And finally, the question was, what are you as passionate about as movie making?

Geez, I might have said food or something. Yeah, that's honest. I'm just eating it. I'm not a foodie. I just want to eat. I am, I mean, that's remarkable. That's relatively consistent. We don't need to do an update to the book.

It's sad how little I've grown. That was fascinating. Congratulations on the new film. Everybody check it out. An excellent thriller and an amazing piece of history. Operation Finale, check it out. And Chris, it's always good to catch up with you, man. Thank you, Josh.

And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressure to do this by Josh. I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the LA Times. And I'm Paul Shear, an actor, writer, and director. You might know me from The League, Veep, or my non-eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters.

We love movies, and we come at them from different perspectives. Yeah, like, Amy thinks that, you know, Joe Pesci was miscast in Goodfellas, and I don't. He's too old. Let's not forget that Paul thinks that Dude, too, is overrated. It is. Anyway, despite this, we come together to host Unspool, a podcast where we talk about good movies, critical hits. Fan favorites, musts season, and case you miss them. We're talking Parasite the Home Alone.

From Greece to the Dark Night. We've done deep dives on popcorn flicks. We've talked about why Independence Day deserves a second look. And we've talked about horror movies, some that you've never even heard of like Ganges and Hess. So if you love movies like we do, come along on our cinematic adventure. Listen to Unspooled wherever you get your podcast. And don't forget to hit the follow button. Thank you.