Happy Sad Confused - Christopher Nolan

Episode Date: July 19, 2017

It’s difficult to avoid superlatives when discussing this week’s guest on “Happy Sad Confused”. Let’s just say Christopher Nolan is certainly one of, if not the most revered and successful directors working today. In this rare conversation (this may in fact be Nolan’s first podcast), the “Inception” and “Memento” helmer talks about his early influences, from George Lucas to Ridley Scott, and what he’d have wanted to talk to Stanley Kubrick about had the two ever met. Of course, Nolan’s new film, “Dunkirk” is discussed at length, plus talk of how the Dark Knight trilogy evolved, Nolan’s dreams of a James Bond flick, and whether he’ll ever dust off that Howard Hughes script. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Conditions apply, visit your local Volvo retailer or go to explorevolvo.com. Get to Toronto's main venues like Budweiser Stage and the new Roger Stadium with Go Transit. Thanks to Go Transit's special online e-ticket fairs, a $10 one-day weekend pass offers unlimited travel on any weekend day or holiday anywhere along the Go Network. And the weekday group passes offer the same weekday travel flexibility across the network, starting at $30 for two people and up to $60 for a group of five. Buy your online go pass ahead of the show at go-transit.com slash tickets. This week on Happy Sack and Fused, Christopher Nolan, on Dunkirk, Saving Film, and a Bond movie in his future? I'm Josh Horowitz.

I just saw Sammy's face, so I had to react. She's excited. Are you guys excited? It's like there's so much to talk to Christopher Nolan about. Is this a six-hour-long podcast? I wish. Hi, guys. My name's Josh.

That's Sammy. This is our little podcast. Yes, Christopher Nolan has just vacated the premises, but in your time sphere, it's only appropriate that the time is a little out of whack when we're talking about Christopher Nolan films. You're going to hear a conversation we just did with him, and he was amazing.

So his new film is Dunkirk. It is out this week. It is inspired by the true events of Dunkirk, of course, and it is a big ensemble with your favorite Killian Murphy. I love. I love him. Okay, calm down. Tom Hardy, yes, Harry Stiles, and...

Why do you point to me when you say Harry Stiles? Oh, when I think of Harry, you're the Harry Whisperer. No? Ooh, ooh, I won't deny it. And it is a really amazing piece of work. It's, see it if you can, in glorious IMAX. It was shot almost all in IMAX, and Christopher Nolan is one of these filmmakers that is, you know, just making films. He's just at the top, top level.

Like, they are immaculately created, and the sound, the visuals, everything just comes together in such an amazing way. And it's truly kind of a ride of a movie in a way that, like, Mad Max, Furry Road was or Gravity was. So is Dunkirk. It's like basically 105 minutes of tension. And it's getting... People are saying it's amazing. Getting amazing reviews. Yeah.

So check it out. You don't need me to tell you why Christopher Nolan is a great filmmaker. The proof is in his amazing resume. for Memento through the Dark Night trilogy, The Prestige Inception, and Sir Steller, and now Dunkirk. So we cover a lot of it in this conversation. It's not nearly as long as you always want with a filmmaker with this kind of resume. But we did get to cover a lot.

We talked a lot about the Batman films. You could do an hour for each movie. I know, in his beginnings, and he's a huge James Bond fan. This talks a little bit about wanting to make a James Bond film at some point, which I think would be amazing. That would be cool. So there's a lot in here. Yeah, I'm really excited that we got him.

He's one of these filmmakers that's been on my list for a while. So I don't know. We're running out of people that I need to get on the podcast, filmmaker-wise. Well, more people have to start making stuff. That's the lesson of this. That's the lesson. That we need more good people. That's true.

So that Josh can have more podcast guests. Yeah, that's the reason to do it, right, guys? Other things to mention, Sammy and I are off to Comic-Con. Tomorrow. But for you guys last week. No. Oh, no. They're there. We're there. Oh, my God. You're all out of whack. I don't know what day it is. Christopher Nolan was just here.

Don't worry about it. Yes. As you hear this probably, we are now in San Diego and we are about to talk to a thousand people at Comic Con and a lot of cool people. Who are you most excited about? Are you allowed to say? I think I can say. I think we can say a few people. Okay. Okay. Who are you most excited about? Well, who are you most excited? I know the answer. I have, well, obviously, a couple, but the number one, people I've never met or even seen in person. Okay. Carrot top.

No. What was it? I have a carrot top aside. We'll get into it after. We don't have time for that. We don't have time for it. Sam and Katrina. Outlander.

Claire and Jamie. Yes. I don't think I can be in the room. I don't think you can either. This is also on the Christopher Nolan. This is like. I am very sophisticated. I think there's a lot of overlap between Outlander and Christopher Nolan fans.

Who are you most excited about? I don't know. You can't pick a favorite. No, I can't pick a favorite. I don't even, I don't know. I mean, I can't even think. Oh, that's coming to mind is how silly, like, talking to, like, Craig Robinson and Adam Scott is going to be. That'll be fun.

That'll be, like, the Will Arnette interview of last year. I was like the silly ones. So, yeah, we're talking to, like, a bunch of huge casts from The Walking Dead and Outlander. Outlander and Outlander and Outlander and Outlander. Trust me. So all our content is going to be, I believe, on what MTV's Facebook page is probably the place to look. Facebook, YouTube, Twitter. We're taking over.

Okay. Follow me on Twitter, Joshua Harwitz. I'll post all the stuff. I'll point you in the right direction. Follow Sammy. Sammy Heller. Sammy with a Y. Sammy with a Y.

So yes, follow our adventures in Comic Con. It's going to be exhausted in a good way talking to all the cool folks. So, yes, I guess without any further ado, let's get to the main event, which is Christopher Nolan. Ridiculous? Ridiculous. He's an amazing filmmaker, and go check out Dunkirk. It's out this week. It is truly an event film worth seeing on the big screen.

And enjoy this conversation. He's one of the best out there. Did you ask him about DiCaprio? No. Oh, I'm listening. Okay, next time. We do talk about Killian for a second. Okay, I'll listen.

There's no official introduction, Mr. Christopher Nolan, but thank you so much for being here today. This is a big one for me. I'm such a fan of yours, and this film blew me away as it blew most critics. Well, thank you. This has got to be a good day because we're approaching release very fast, and I would think there's always anxiety, no matter how far you get into the business on the days before release. And then when the reviews come out, you can exhale a little bit. Yes? How are you feeling right now?

to be honest you know it never gets any easier I make films for an audience and I see myself as part of that audience and when you do that there's no real denying that the film isn't finished until it goes out to the world and the public kind of tells you what it is you've done so I feel very invested in the release of the film

I'd like to play a call and sort of think oh you know well I've made the film I've made but it doesn't work that way for me I want the film to be an event. I want people to come to it and get something out of it. Whatever form that takes, that's when the film is finished from me. It's when people tell me what it is. What is your definition of success at this point in your career?

I mean, there's the box office part. There is the critical part. And as you say, you're making films for an audience. I'm just curious, like, at what point do you say, like, this was a success for me? Can you equate that in a way? You really can't, actually. and it's different on every film and it's an odd thing to say

but you don't know what it is you're looking for but you sort of know it when you see it if you know what I mean and for some films particularly when there's something about the film that is a little bit different or a little bit radical maybe

or I've been through a process on various of my films I won't name names but where as you're putting the film out as you're finishing the film you're showing it to the people who financed it other producers, all the rest, you know, where you're getting a certain amount of, okay, how is this going to work for an audience?

Sure. I like it. Will they like it? You know? And with those experiences, what you're really looking for, honestly, is that first person who had nothing to do with the film, who you go and do an interview with it like this or whatever, who gets the film exactly the way you intended. I remember that very clearly on Memento.

I remember sitting down, I went over to England. to do some British press. We really hadn't shown the film to anyone, and the first guy I did an interview with just got the film exactly as I intended. And it was, for me, there's a culmination of about a year since we finished the film

when nobody seemed to get it or like it or want it. And just that one person is sort of enough that you know you're not crazy. It's like, okay, I did something that will speak to some people. And you talk about, you know, going back to something like Memento all the way up to Dunkirk.

These are films that are a little bit out of the box, out of even something like Dunkirk, which is obviously a large-scale entertainment meant to entertain the masses, but it's an unconventional, non-linear kind of narrative. You're taking some risks in that, will the audience go along with me? Will they be able to keep up with this journey? And they certainly did on something like Inception, which was also, I would imagine, there were a lot of long conversations, like, are they going to buy this? There were a few sleepless nights on that one.

Right. So I'm curious because, like, you know, growing up, and we're relatively the same age, I mean, I remember filmmakers. There were a handful of filmmakers that, like, were, for lack of a better term, a brand. They meant something. They meant they were the reason to go to the movie, whether it was a Steven Spielberg or a, in a different way, a Woody Allen, et cetera. And your name, frankly, today is in that handful. It's that, you know, that James Cameron, that Christopher Nolan, that Quentin Tarantino, like, I will go with them on a journey, whatever journey they feel like they want to take me on.

do you feel in some ways like a responsibility to take risks to say you know what I'm going to not go with the tried and true and I'm going to challenge myself and challenge the audience each and every time out I don't know I think you just compared me with myself so I'm trying to get my head around for a second it's a little inception style I was going to say uh yeah no I it's it's interesting to talk to people about um the idea of outside the box of the idea of trying to sort of challenge audience expectations in some way or all the rest. Because even as you describe that, I think that's the movie I want to see. Whoever's made it. That's the one I want to see. I don't want to see the film that I know what it's going to be. And it's the balance between familiarity and novelty.

Not to use a reductive term, but novelty. You know, newness, freshness. Sure. It's that balance that I think as movie goes, we always look to. It's like, yeah, we want to know, we want some sense of what we're getting ourselves into, that there'll be some adherence to the conventions of blockbuster filmmaking or whatever, you know, that we're going to be entertained, essentially. And I think maybe what I've tried to do is strip down or really analyze that set of expectations

in terms of, well, what's really important to me in a blockbuster? What are the boxes that have to be ticked? And I think that there are a lot of boxes that get ticked that no one really cares about, truth and if you make a film that does something different that's more exciting for people certainly as a film go I want to see something I haven't seen before I want to be moved in a way that I want the tricks to be reinvented I suppose so so if you'll indulge me I'm sure you've talked about this a bunch but growing up what were the filmmakers the formative experiences the first time in a theater that you know your head spun around can be a sense of where you were

as a kid well I've answered this question a lot of times and I have to always answer the same way to be, you know, sincere about it. It's, you know, George Lucas's first Star Wars. For anybody my age, and I'm about to be 47, it's a life-changing experience. It showed the possibility of cinema overall. And then about a year after that was released, they re-released Kubrick's 2001.

My dad took me to see it on a huge screen in London and Lesser Square. And that has always stuck with me as just this being taken to a completely, different headspace, you know, being shown a completely different reality than the one I'd walked in off the street with. And I think the sheer size of that just stuck with me. And then interestingly, for me, the next really seminal film was Ridley Scott's Blade Runner, all of this science fiction. Somewhere in there, you've got the Bond films. There's just a huge, you know, signify to me of the potential of the blockbuster and the globe traveling, you know, glamorous sort of

filmmaking. But Ridley Scott's Blade Runner, I first watched on VHS. I didn't go to this. I was too young to go see it in the cinema. You know, it was an R-rated film and all the rest. And even on that smaller screen, something about the immersion of that world and the creation of that world really spoke to me. And I watched that film hundreds of times, literally hundreds of times.

Is it sacrilege to say that I kind of like the Harrison Ford nourish? No, it's not. It's honestly, you. you know, it is the best version of the film. It's imperfect, and I'm, you know, it seems presumptuous and I'm a huge fan of Ridley Scott, so I don't want to go up against his view in a sense. Right.

But the reality is that tension between the marketplace, between the studios, between the fights, the creative stuff that happens when a film goes out, unless they literally pull the film out of a direct's hands and recut it, you know, and, you know, bastardize it in some way, I think really the authoritative version of the film tends to be the one that goes out there in theaters. I really believe that.

And I had the experience of the great Curtis Hanson. He ran this screening series at UCLA called the film that influenced me. And I showed Blade Runner and I managed to get Warners to give us an original release print. This was right before we made Batman McGins. And so my designer came to see it, you know, projected it. And even with the voice of all the real estate,

They're always defining things to it that actually really I realized I'd missed over the years and can come to the other versions. And I think there's something about that put up or shut up. Okay, that's the thing you put in theaters. I think as filmmakers, well, I think for the public, that has to be protected as some kind of authoritative, definitive statement of what the film is. If they're then going to do director's cuts and stuff, that's fine. I think they need to exist in parallel there.

Did you ever forked with a, you know, we're just going to get a played runner or sequel, which looks amazing to me. fantastic filmmakers. Do you ever for it with the idea of getting involved in that project? I didn't. I think when I was 16, that probably would have been my dream. You were trying to get that meeting at 16. It didn't happen. When I was 16, they weren't as interested in the sequel. I don't think anyone was interested into a sequel played around by anybody at that point. This is a film that really took its time to get into the zeitgeist and into the Pantheon. And so, you know, as a loyal fan from when it first

appeared, you feel a little bit protective of it. Denise is a fantastic filmmaker, and I very much admire a rival, and he's also a lovely guy if you've met him. So, you know, I'm really rooting for him, but he knows what he's telling. Oh, yeah. Every time you talk to him, it's like he can see the sweat just coming down, but he's, if there's somebody for up for the job, it's definitely him. I assume you never had the opportunity to meet Kubrick, did you?

I mean, you've met these other ones that you grew up with. What would you want to talk to Stanley Kubrick about? if given the opportunity. Oh, my goodness. I think I, well, it's paradoxical because what I'd like to know is how he would have finished eyes wide shut. Because when I started looking at

the reality of how the film was finished and at what point he died, he died before the scoring sessions were completed. And so even though I think the studio appropriately put out the film as his version of the film, knowing where that happens in my own process, I realized it was a little bit early.

And indeed, I, at the urging of Scott Founders, actually, used to write for a variety, I took another look at that film because it hadn't really worked for me the first time I saw it. I was a little disappointed. And watching again, I realized that it is an extraordinary achievement, but it is a little bit hampered by very, very small and superficial, almost technical flaws that I'm pretty sure he would have absolutely ironed out. I mean, it's literally things like, you know, the sound that runs over a second unit shot of an intersection of New York. And then there's a sort of hard cut in the sound when they cut to the back lot set.

So a lot of people sort of felt it looked artificial and all the rest. And you look at it again, you're like, there are only a couple of small technical things that betray that. That I have a feeling would have been ironed out. Well, no, it gets meticulousness, I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and his meticulousness and the way he would cut his films. I mean, he literally recut 2001 on the boat from.

London over to New York to premiere the film and then cut it again after the premiere and when I say cut it again I mean there are some really significant things some of the intertitles were added after the premiere you know I think you cut about 20 minutes of the film and really significant things Ruhl's like Terrence Malik I think did that

on the red line I think they have those right so I want to talk a little bit about the I mean I saw the film yesterday and it's remarkable and it's basically 105 hundred seven minutes of tension and release at the end it's a cathartic wonderful kind emotional ending, actually, I would say.

But, you know, it recalls for me a few things. Like, I think of the prologs in particular for, you know, Dark Night and Dark Night Rises and those kind of like sustained, whatever they were, 10, 15 minutes of tension that were just immaculate filmmaking. And it feels like this is almost a version of that testing the audience and seeing, like, what you can get away with. Can you take them on that ride? Can you put them through that for 105 or whatever minutes?

Well, in technical terms, that's part. Partly it because of the IMAX format. Sure. It really is about, okay, how much can we use that? This is the most we've ever used it. It's basically the whole film is done that way. And where we're not using IMAX, we're using 65 mil 5 perf. So our kind of go-to-po-man's form was what Lawrence of Arabia was shot on.

So it's an extremely meticulously well-made, you know, crafted sort of cinematographic experience from Hoytivan, Hoytimore there. But in terms of content, it's actually more related to the third acts of my other. films because what I found myself really enjoying in the finishing of those films from the Dark Night Road through the interstellar really is this using parallel action cross-cutting between the storylines I started to notice that in the third act there's a point where the film starts to snowball there's a point where in all those films two and two plus two starts equaling five and then six and then seven you know you're getting more than the sum of its parts. And what I wanted to do with Dunkirk, I'm taking on a real-life story that's

freighted with emotion, not just for British people who know this story, but the story itself is inherently very, very emotional. So it doesn't need theatricality. It doesn't need sentimentalizing. It doesn't need me sort of, I don't know, writing something, you know, giving characters words sort of explain why we should care about. Yeah, the nature of the situation within the first two minutes, you're like... And where it goes. Yeah. And so you have to trust that. So what I wanted to do was, I hate to use the word experiment because this is a huge studio movie and I really, you know, trying to avoid words like that in this context. But for me, I suppose the gamble.

Gamble's a slightly sexier word. Yeah. The sexy gamble of Christopher Nolan. The gamble here was, can you jump right into that third act? Right. And dispense with all of the preamble, all of the backstory, and just be on this ride. and start that snowballing from the first frame of the movie. And that's what everything is designed to do in the film.

It's designed to be this sort of very, very intense experience that develops a cumulative sense of emotion by the end and emotions of catharsis by the end without being forced, without being set up in the traditional way. While I was writing the script, I got a lot of confidence, I got a real confidence boost from sitting in the movie theater watching George Miller's Mad Max Fury Road

because first of the first couple of minutes of the film it was just like, okay, there are no rules to this anymore. I've never seen a film that there's anything remotely like that. You're like, okay, you know, all bets are off the table. You can do whatever you want as a filmmaker, let's be honest. And that's fun. But it's a sustained tension. It's basically a car chase.

You know, it is very much what I've tried to do with this film in that it's the third act of a bigger movie. You just don't get shown the first two acts. It's like, okay, you're playing catch up. to jump in and experience something. And as you said, there's almost like, it's weird to say it's unexpected because given the material you would think there is going to be kind of an emotional release. But it does kind of like, it caught me off guard by the end, kind of like the way, I mean, you know they're heading towards each other, these three different storylines. But the way they do intersect and the way there are certain moments in the end and, you know, the score changes, et cetera.

And it feels like you need that release at the end, I suppose. Very much. And I wanted to sneak up on it. You know, that was the theory is, let's tell a very, very cold and objective set of physical circumstances where hopefully you care about the characters, you're empathizing with the characters in really the Hitchcock mode, which is the language of suspense, it's this very visual language. It's all really about physical process. It's about caring about somebody because you wouldn't want to be in their position or if you were in their position, you want them to succeed. You want them to carry that stretch across that whole. without falling in because you wouldn't want to fall in.

It's the most visceral, I Am There kind of version of it. And Hitchcock found these incredible ways to use it in his filmmaking that really sort of opened your eyes to the potential of it. The example I was point to is in Psycho. You have, generally, the putative heroin of the pieces is horribly murdered in one of the big scenes in the film. And then Tony Perkins, who's at least complicit in the murder, what I mean, cleans up very meticulously the murder,

puts the body in the trunk of a car, drives the car out of the swamp, sinks it in the swamp, it goes down halfway and it stops. And he looks around nervously. And you're afraid. Right. Oh, is he going to get caught?

And that incredible reversal of empathy, that, you know, antagonist, protagonist is just, how does that work? And you look at it and you go, okay, it works because of physical process. It works because you watched him clean up and you got invested in the difficulty of that and the dangers of that.

And that's not about people talking. It's not about people telling you that you should be rooting for them rather than the other guy. It's not about backstory. It's about physical. It's like being with them, yeah. Yeah.

Do you take a subversive pleasure in two of the three times you've put Tom Hardy on screen? He's behind a mask most of the time? Well, I always get that question about Tom. Nobody seems to point out what Killian has pointed out very bitterly to me, which is I've done a couple of three films

where he's had a sack on his head. Fair enough. Points to Killian, sure. Points to Killian, definitely. And I said, you know, when I called him about this one, he's just, the first thing he said, is, do I have to wear a sack? Fine, I'll rewrite the script. Exactly. But Tom, I mean, Gillian actually wants to wear a sack on his head underwater.

Okay, that's the dedication for me, and that was an inception. And, but, no, Tom, I love what he did in Dark Night Rises. For me, it was just a dream come true working with somebody that. daring and just radical and just able to project you know we had so many conversations about the mask and okay what are you going to see a bit of eyebrow these two eyes this bit of forehead I can do something with this something like that very very particular physical conversations and then I just think it's a it's a masterful performance and so in taking on the character

of a Spitfire pilot wanting authenticity wanted to put the audience really in the cockpit with this guy I didn't want to do what they did in all the old World War 2 films which is They put their mask on. And then every time they want to talk, they pull it off, which is absurd because the microphone is actually in the mask. They would never, never take it off. And the button to talk is actually in the throttle.

You just push a button in it. So there's no, you know, they would wear this mask continuously. And so I knew that was what I wanted to do. I was a little bit embarrassed to call up Tom and say, look, can you come and put another mask on? But I knew, I mean, he's just such an extraordinary actor. And this time round, I mean, I think for me, his most moving scene in the film, you see one of his eyes, literally, one of his eyes.

And what he's able to do in that moment is so much more than most actors could do with their entire bodies. And for the record, I remain completely obsessed with his his Bain character from Dark Night Rise. I mean, we still, to this day, on that upstation of the voices, behind you. You know, just, once you have that voice in you, you can't ever get it out. I mean, I just, I love the character, I love the performance.

And I think, you know, this idea that he was, able to get across about demagoguery and the dangers of it and everything. It's just never more prescient. Absolutely. Yeah, one of the scarier experiences in my life was doing the bane voice to Tom's face. I was worried how we go. He was a good sport about it. It transcends that film into pop culture forever. Have you two ever loosely joked about Bond together? Obviously, you're a lover of Bond. You've talked about one day wanting to do a Bond film. His name is always in the hopper. Yeah. Would he be a good fit for Christopher Nolan Bond film? Oh, he'd be amazing. I mean, no, he really would. And, you know, I've always loved the character. And over

the years, I've met with Bob and Michael, who are just the most incredible people and most incredible producers. But that's part of the problem. They're such incredible producers. They do great on their own. I'd love to work with them at some point, but it would have to make sense. I put it this way, somebody asked me this question recently. I said, I'd have to be needed, you know, I mean, there's no point in turning up to just say action and can't. And I think I think they've got a really good thing going, and I love going to watch those movies. I mean, do you have it in your mind if and when that opportunity came about, like, what you would want to do with a character that hasn't been done? Oh, absolutely.

You know, I put myself to sleep at night for the last 40 years trying to figure that out. But as you do, as a filmmaker, you always think about other people's movies, how much better you would make them. But I'm curious, I mean, without revealing too much, like, what is the unmind territory of Bond at this point, you think? I would never tell you that. Those are the only cards I hold There's any chance I have of scoring the gig Just to imply that I have some extraordinary thing That nobody else has thought of

So I'm never gonna tell you Quentin I know wanted to do it A period piece He wanted to do like Casino Royale set like in the 60s Which would have been interesting You know you've talked before about how like the allure Partially of doing the Batman films Was working like with like that iconic character

That gave you license to kind of go big kind of go big emotionally, and that would, I assume, if you ever do bond, you would have that similar kind of opportunity. I'm not saying anything. Okay, but talking about Batman, because it is such an important three films on your resume and stands as one of the best trilogies of all time. I mean, what's fascinating to me is that it wasn't set out to be a trilogy, and it kind of organically grew.

Well, this was back in the quaint old days when it was considered, well, it was considered a little bit presumptuous to say, I'm going to, make this film and we're going to do nine of them in a row and you're going to love them as an audience. Back in the day, and I sound very old now, you know, you put everything into a film. You just said, okay, we're going to make. By the way, I think that's what people, I actually think that's what the studios should be doing more of now. It's just concentrating on one from not saving things for later films. Because if you look at what we did in the Dark Night trilogy, we always had a thought that, okay, if people love the first one, then maybe we'll get to do another.

But we weren't going to save anything. and the reason the Joker isn't in the first film is because it was just such a great ending to sort of tease it in that way and it's amazing to think of now but when we showed the film of the studio they actually did ask they go isn't that a bit sequel bait

are you sure you want to do that can imagine a studio saying it today and I was going no it's not about sequel bait it's because it's just you want to imagine these characters living on it's just exciting to walk out of the theatre thinking about possibilities and it would have been too much to try and get the Joker in

but coming to the dark night, we knew, okay, great. We get to do that now. We get to see that character in this world, and that's exciting. But there was never any talk of not doing Two-Face or saving him for a third movie or whatever. It was all like you put all your chips on the table with those films. And so we wound up making three. We'd sort of loosely, very loosely talked about possibly doing three right at the beginning,

just myself and David Goya and Jonah just throwing ideas around. But then we immediately took it off the table and said, okay, let's just make a great movie. And we did that, you know, all three times. The one thing about, you know, Dark Night Rise is we didn't know at that point we weren't going to do any more. But beyond that, no, it was about just trying to make the best movie possible. We were talking about the wonderful ending for Dunkirk. I'm just curious before the ending for Dark Night Rises, which, again, was such so satisfying to me in the way that, again, you kind of like tease a world will probably never see again, but like you open the mind up to possibilities in terms of handing that.

epitone to your kind of Robin-ish character and even the last image of the rising platform, which echoes, of course, the title. Can you talk a little bit of sort of when and how that last image or the ending of that film arrived for you? Was that something that you came upon early on? I'm just having to think my way back into Dark Night Rise's Press. No, the ending was really the first thing that I brought to the table that I had in my mind. And for me, that is very important. It was the same with The Dark Night.

Like, I had to know what the ending was to feel that we could do a sequel. And I think that is the difference in today's world. There's so much pressure for sequels. There's so much pressure for IEP and the continued exploitation of it. I don't think anyone is really allowed to stop and ask, okay, but can we, where does it really go? Does it really add something, you know? And I think that's unfortunate because for me, when I look at those films, and I'm very proud of those films.

It's not for me to make any great claims for them, but I am proud of them, and I'm proud of the way that each of them comments on each other. And I think, I feel like more filmmakers should have the opportunity to grow with the audience. And that's what we've got to do. We took 10 years to make this film.

You know, so we weren't having to try and decide what an audience wanted out of a third film while we were doing the first film. We got to, you know, we got to change and grow. and, you know, learn from the audience in a way, not in a reactive sense, not in a direct sense, but just in that you get older and you change and you get to put that into the film.

So the film's going to grow with you and they grow with the audience, and I think that was fun. Interesting, that's something that the last guest on the podcast was Matt Reeves, actually, who had a similar kind of experience, I think, in apes in terms of kind of evolving with that franchise. And those last two films are remarkable, I would say. Do you have any relationship with Matt,

or are you curious about sort of what he's going to bring to that character? I don't. I've never had the pleasure of meeting him. I very much like what he's done in the Apes movies. I haven't been able to see the most recent one because I've been working, but I like the second one a lot. I like the first one. And I think actually I've been sitting here pontificating about it. But I think that franchise, they have been able to do that a little bit of time, kind of think about, okay, if we're going to come back to it, what do we bring to it? And I think that makes all the difference. Do you have any other, I mean, I've followed you throughout your career. I know some of the projects that kind of came and went. I know Howard Hughes was something that you were very much in. to. I know if Prisoner was a property you were interested in, are either of those properties you would ever consider returning to? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think Universal got a bit fed up with waiting for me from the prisoner because I kept making other films. It's a very tough nut to crack, as anybody knows the property knows, but it's a fascinating, fascinating property. The Howard Hughes, it's the favorite of the scripts I've written. So it sort of sits there in a drawer and I get it out between films and read it and think about, okay.

And then somebody else always comes along and makes another thing about how it used. Turk Warren Daisy does it. Well, it goes back in the droids. Give another five years. I mean, to be fair, Warren had been looking to do that move for a lot longer than I had. But I would like to do it one day, but, you know, the time would have to be right. And that's, you know, films are all about the planet's aligning. I mean, you asked about Bond earlier.

It's the same thing. It's about being in the right place and the right time. There's a lot of luck involved with that. Do you feel most confident on a film set? Is that sort of like when you walk on there, do you always sort of know this is what I was born to do, this is what my task is today, or are there any moments of feeling?

It was interesting. Particularly when I was starting out in my first studio film, which was insomnia, which I did with Al Pacino and Robin Williams and Hillary Swank, and it was a fantastic experience, but I was very frightened, very insecure,

going to work every day. And at one point, because I used to go into his trailer in the morning we'd have these long chats before with everybody outside looking at their watches kind of one of these guys actually going to shoot another thing but we hadn't had any rehearsal time on the film and that was very part of it

but at one point he just said to me oh you're home meaning the film said meaning this is where you were born to be and he'd just seen that in me and sort of recognized that in me before I recognize it myself because I did feel nervous I did feel insecure but what he realized

before I did is that despite all all that, it's absolutely the place that I'm happiest to be and feel the most useful, I suppose. Well, I will say that I'm seeing it in IMAX yesterday and knowing your, you know, fervent to love and support of film, it means a lot to someone like myself who grew up, you know, just a film geek and remains such to this day. So you take a certain pride or responsibility and sort of being a guardian along with a few other select filmmakers of that aspect of filmmaking that, you know, in this time when we talk about the golden, age of TV, and sure, there's great TV.

But when I see something like Dunkirk, I say, like, I want to slide that across the table and say, like, this is why we need film still. Well, it depends on if you're talking about celluloid or talking about theatrical film. I guess I'm talking about putting both because time is short. Putting both because time short. God, I don't have a short answer. Gosh, I don't like being a particular guardian of cellular film because it scares the hell out of me how close it came to going away.

I'd like to historically sort of take pride in the role I took in galvanizing filmmakers to try and get behind it. But we try to really spread that support as wide as possible because there are so many filmmakers who value it and love it who just aren't even given the opportunity to use it anymore by studios or line producers or people tell them it's too expensive or whatever. All this nonsense that goes on. And younger filmmakers, you know, I talk to them,

they want the real thing. They want to go to that. There are a lot of filmmakers who start digitally, like Demi Jazeal and then they go to film. you know, it's important to keep it going. And, you know, and as far as to sort of pivot to the theatrical experience, I mean, golden age of TV, notwithstanding, I mean, TV, the way people talk about TV is sort of strange.

It's like every generation, it's like the old saying about every generation thinking they invented sex. I think every generation thinks they invented TV, and there was no great TV before. And it's very self-congratulatory. It's always, right now, it's at the expensive movies. I don't know why. It used to be, we used to have to answer questions,

about video games 10 years ago. It was all like, well, you guys are dinosaurs. It's all about video games now. And then eventually people realize they're just different things. It's just different experiences. And they always have been, and they always will be.

You know, virtual reality isn't going to put films out of business. It'll be its own thing, and that's fine. Movies, what defines a movie? It's a story that plays in a movie theater with a group of people watching it. I prefer for that to be in celluloid and then project the celluloid,

but it isn't the technical aspect that defines the experience. It's the unique combination of your subjective response to the imagery that's up there and your magical empathy with the other audience members. You're feeling that your awareness of them reacting to the story in their own way, you reacting the story in your own way, and you're sharing this experience. And that's why it's like with restaurants. It's like you don't want it to be too crowded, but you don't really want to eat in the empty restaurant.

Where is everybody? Do I not know something? Exactly. You want a decent size audience in that. for that really unique experience. The technical side is a little bit separate for that. And that's why it's not going anywhere. It's important to us.

And it has a visceral quality. There's a very particular rhythm and form that films take that you can challenge. And with Dunkirk, we've tried to challenge it and stretch it in different ways or change it a little bit if we can or bring something new to it. But at the end of the day, it's a really robust and important form of entertainment for people

and will always be so. Going out to the movies is one of the great entertainments in American culture. The last great film you saw on the big screen, new one. Oh, it's a while since I saw anything because I got deep into working. But I, you know, I talked about Chazil earlier. I saw La La La Land three times in the movie. Beautiful. Be Soar, right?

Amazing. Yeah. And finally, is Michael Kane upset that you gave Harry Stiles his role in this one? I heard they were both up for the same one. Michael was very, very generous in understanding that we make a film about 18-year-olds. but I will say, I don't know whether you notice, but there's a tiny little bit of Michael Kane in the film. I thought there might be.

Okay, thank you for confirming that. Yeah, we needed just a hint of keenness in the film to complete it. There's a little bit there. We need something in there. It's always good to see you, and congratulations on the film. Honestly, it's an amazing piece of work. If people have not heard the reviews, I mean, check them out, because everybody's in love with this one,

and Dunkirk is truly an event. And it's a really emotional, powerful film as well. I always look forward to what you have coming up next and look forward to talking to you again soon, Christopher. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thanks for your time. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes

or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressure to do this by Josh. This episode of Happy, Sad, Confused was produced by Sherry Barclay, Michael Katano, Kasha Mahalovich, and Mukta Mohan for the MTV Podcast Network. You can subscribe to this and all of our other shows on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Google Play, Spotify, or wherever else you find your podcasts. Goodbye. Summer movies, Hello Fall. I'm Anthony Devaney. And I'm his twin brother, James. We host Raiders of the Lost Podcast, the Ultimate Movie Podcast, and we are ecstatic to break down late summer and early fall releases. We have Leonardo DiCaprio leading a revolution in one battle after another, Timothy Salome, playing power ping pong in Marty Supreme.

Let's not forget Emma Stone and Jorgos' Borgonia. Dwayne Johnson, he's coming for that Oscar in The Smashing Machine, Spike Lee and Denzel teaming up again, plus Daniel DeLuis's return from retirement. There will be plenty of blockbusters to chat about, too. Tron Aries looks exceptional, plus Mortal Kombat 2, and Edgar writes, The Running Man starring Glenn Powell. Search for Raiders of the Lost Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube.