Happy Sad Confused - Colin Hanks

Episode Date: October 19, 2022

Has HAPPY SAD CONFUSED become the unofficial Hanks family podcast? Josh welcomes his second Hanks this year with the charming and talented Colin Hanks joining the fray this time to chat about his extensive career in film and especially TV, from ROSWELL to his latest, A FRIEND OF THE FAMILY. Make sure you subscribe to Josh's youtube channel to watch all his conversations! Click here! Come see Josh tape LIVE Happy Sad Confused conversations in New York City! October 25th with Ralph Macchio! Tickets are available here! October 26th with Henry Cavill! Tickets are available here! November 11th with Sylvester Stallone! Tickets available here! For all of your media headlines remember to subscribe to The Wakeup newsletter here! Don't forget to check out the Happy Sad Confused patreon here! We've got exclusive episodes of GAME NIGHT, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

D.C. high volume, Batman. The Dark Nights definitive DC comic stories adapted directly for audio for the very first time. Fear, I have to make them afraid. He's got a motorcycle. Get after him or have you shot. What do you mean blow up the building? From this moment on,

none of you are safe. New episodes every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, Sad, Confused begins now. Today on Happy, Sad, Confused, Colin Hanks from Orange County and Roswell to his new series of Friend of the Family. Hey, guys, I'm Josh Horowitz.

Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. You know, we always love it around here when we have not one but two generations joining the podcast, and yes, Mr. Colin Hank. Hanks joins the ranks just, what, three or four weeks ago? We had his father, of course, the great Tom Hanks on the show, and now Colin joins the fray, and he was a delight. It's in the DNA. These Hanks men, they're good, they're good eggs. He's a good one, Colin, and I really enjoyed our chat about his new series for Peacock, a friend of the family, and a great many other things, including his documentary work, and just his entire career. Other things to mention

before we get to the main event. As always, check out the show notes for upcoming events here in New York City and also available virtually. Those include Sly Stelone, November 11th, Henry Cavill, October 26th, Ralph Machio, October 25th, and more to come. We always love to see you guys out there in person. If you can't make it in person and you want to be a part of it live virtually, there is that option. click the links in the show notes and we hope to see you guys out there. Hit up Patreon

for all your exclusive content for the discount codes for the early access for the exclusive videos. Sam Hewan fans, a bunch of cool stuff awaits you there. Patreon.com slash happy sack and fused and finally hit up our YouTube channel, YouTube.com

slash Josh Horowitz. That is our home for all the video. Whether it goes up there first, sometimes that goes up on Patreon, but it will land, generally speaking, on the YouTube channel. Make sure to hit subscribe, and you'll be able to watch this conversation with Colin and a great many other things. Okay, so some context for the conversation with Colin Hanks. We shot this in a new location for Happy Seg Confused. I was so privileged to be invited to the Paley Center for Media's

Paley Weekend Festivities, a couple weeks back in New York City. For those that don't know, Paley Center is this fantastic, long-standing institution that, of course, celebrates the long-storied history of television, and they have great facilities there. I've been going there, even in its earlier incarnation in the Museum of Television and Radio, since I was a kid, and now to see what they've done with the place, it's all spruced up and gorgeous. They've, I've moderated events there, and they now have opened a podcast studio, which we were the first podcast to tape in. So me and Colin, you'll hear us kind of joke about that. We have inaugurated this new podcast studio at Paley Center.

I just want to thank the Paley folks for inviting us. You'll hear in the context of this conversation. I think Colin didn't really know. I know Colin didn't really know what he was walking into, but he was so game. It was during kind of like a fancy, schmancy event for Paley members, some of which were watching through the glass partition. So it all made for a unique environment, but Colin's a pro.

I'm kind of a pro, and we rolled with it, had a great chat. And like I said, just happy to support a great institution like Paley Center. If you're in New York City, make sure to check it out, become a member, do the things. You know what to do. Okay. Last plug, I'm just going to mention. We talk about it at length in this conversation. But Colin Hanks has a new series.

It's on Peacock. It's a limited series. and it is it's dark stuff guys but it is fascinating it is about this Idaho family the Brobergs who made some really horrible choices way back when in trusting a friend of the family there's that title and had some really traumatic consequences for the entire family

you'll get a sense of it there was a documentary a few years back called abducted in plain sight which I've also seen which is worth checking out but this one you know, fleshes it out over eight episodes, dramatically, has great performances from Colin, Jake Lacey, Anna Pacquin, the list goes on. So check that out. It is currently unfurling on Peacock each week with new episodes. And yeah, that's the whole preamble. Enjoy this conversation with the charming, the game, the slightly shocked to be in a podcast

studio in the middle of Manhattan, the great Colin Hanks. Enjoy it. Well, welcome Happy, Sad, Confused Listeners, Viewers. Welcome to folks here at the Paley Center for Media. I'm Josh Horowitz, and this is a very special edition of my little old podcast, Happy Sad Confused. And I've got The Man of the Hour in it with me. We're on this ride together, Mr. Colin Hanks. I'm more confused if we're going to go a sad, happy, confused. I'm just confused.

I thought this was going to be a Zoom. This is not a Zoom. Yeah. This is a, we've got an audience. They gave me the five, four, three, two, one. Like, it's television. So, look, wherever we want to go, just take me there, Goose. I'm following you.

Like, Goose didn't make it. That's a really bad analogy to start with. Can I be Maverick? Keeping you on your hind foot, I guess. To call back something from all fair. We're going to cover a lot. Colin has a great new limited series of premiering on Peacock soon,

a friend of the family, some intense stuff, some dark stuff, but we're going to have some laughs too because you've had some amazing different kind of credits in your career. It feels very appropriate. We're here at Paley Center because you've really made much of your life in television. First of all, I want to say it's a historic moment for Happy Say I Confused. You join the annals of the Ron Howard and Bryce Dallas Howard duo. You joined the Brendan Gleason, Dono Gleason. Yes. We recently had Dad on. Yes? He did all right.

I gave him a sound B. For a Zoom, it was good. Exactly. I mean, he was wearing clothes. I think that's a bonus all the way around. No, he was naked. Yeah, I didn't, yeah, I didn't mention that. Yeah.

It's a little known fact. The hanks are all nudists. I heard, yeah. I heard. But no, earnestly, it's really good to have you, man. And as you said, we have this kind of like, I feel like we're in the zoo a little bit. We're being watched behind the... It's a fish tank vibe.

It's a fish tank vibe. But you've experienced that all your life. I mean, in a semi-serious question here is that, like, Like, out of the womb, since you've been in public settings, have you felt that? Well, not out of the womb. I mean, I was old enough to have to explain to people that my dad was on television dressing like a woman for comedy. Right. That's a bosom buddies reference for anyone paying attention outside of our fishbowl or listening back home or watching back home.

There's a standing o right behind you. You can't see it. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely something I'm familiar with. Sure sure. Right. Is there any coping mechanism at this point? It's just so it must be so ingrained. Oh, it's all coping mechanisms. I mean, that's all it is. Of course. Yeah, yeah. You find your way to navigate it and you sort of get through it. So I mentioned to you right before we got started, again, to keep you on your back foot. I hit up a mutual friend of ours because I wanted some intel on the mysterious enigma that is Colin Hanks. Just the fact that you consider me a mysterious enigma, I think, is a huge win. Your co-star

In Life and Peace is Zoe Lister Jones He almost did a spit take I should have known Of course it's Zoe Lister Jones The delightful Zoe Lister Jones Amazing, talented Joey Lister Jones

You'll be happy to know she said Kind Things in return Okay good She called you quote Generally the best human Oh gross That's She is an actress

For a living She also said you're a great Onset DJ And that you really know How to set the mood A set. Oh, that's nice. Is that fair to say? Take pride in that skill set? Yeah, actually, I do. I find that that can actually be a great sort of galvanizing, like, team-building exercise. So explain to me how this works. You literally...

Well, it varies on the job. It really sort of varies on the job and whether I feel like I have the ability to be able to force people to listen to music that I want to listen to and have them not be able to say anything. like maybe don't. But on Life and Pieces, you know, the show was sort of a unique show. There was four different short stories per episode. Right. And generally speaking, on Wednesdays, we would have what were called family days,

which is when every, all of the actors were working on the same day, pretty much all in the same sequence. And so on those days, I just took it upon myself to just play The Beatles, that just, I said, we're a Beatles family. I'm just saying it right now because James Brolin

really didn't care. And so I would just sort of play Beatles music and it was a great sort of background for all of us to just sort of be in a good mood and talk and sort of get to know each other. How was Monday? Pretty good.

Worried about Thursday. Just sort of getting to know each other. And that was the first time that I actually really sort of did it. But ironically, and I really don't mean this as a segue, but it is absolutely true. I ended up

doing a very similar thing on a friend of the family. To help break the mood a little bit. Because the show is so incredibly dark. So me and Austin Stoll, who's one of the other actors on the show, we took it upon ourselves

to decorate our sort of actors' holding area. Right. And we, We created what we called the Broberg Bungalow. And I want you to imagine the cheapest teaky bar type environment. We had a disco ball, Christmas lights, all sorts of tiki stuff all over, license plates. I said, let's go with a dive bar kind of vibe here. We're playing Mormons.

That only seems right. And so we created the Broberg Bungalow, and I came up with an 11-hour playlist of nothing but Hawaiian Polynesian music. So kind of an inverse relationship to the material, as much as away from it as you could go. I mean, we would literally go on set and we'd be doing these incredibly dark scenes, you know, with subject matter that is just really

sort of hard to be in, you know, 12 hours a day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I really wanted to try and just, as soon as we walked off that set, you know, and we're still on the same stage, but I wanted to, as soon as we walked off that set, I wanted it to have a different vibe and be a fun place to work and have everyone be in sort of a goodish mood, you know. Right.

And so I just started decorating and had an 11-hour playlist, and Bob was your uncle. I would imagine this would work and help all your fellow actors, except if you, like, eventually work with, like, Daniel Day Lewis, who's, like, in Lincoln vibe. And he's like, no, we didn't have that kind of music. I mean, if he's on, if he's on, if he's number one on that call sheet, I'm letting him call the offense. You've got to let him do DJ the, yeah, he can DJ that set list. But, you know, I was like, hey, look, I'm number three. I'm just going to, I'm just going to claim this now. And it ended up being a really great, just a way for all of us to sort of galvanize and get to know each other and just know that it was a safe space.

And so we would enjoy that. And then they say, all right, it's time to go to work. And it's like, okay, off we go. And then, you know, we would all, you know, do what we were hired to do. So let's talk about what you were hired to do. This is, it's intense subject matter. This is based on true events for those that might be familiar with the documentary and blanking on it right now. abducted in plain sight. Thank you. Abducted in plain sight, which is great in its own right. But this obviously, I mean, I guess one of my questions about this

is what you think a narrative form like this can accomplish that a doc can't. But let's first set up what this story is. We're in Idaho. It's the 70s. It's a Mormon family. And it's a heartbreaking situation. It's an incomprehensible situation is what it is. That's a very good way of putting it.

What are the general facts that people should know you think? It's challenging because there are so many facts. But the truth of the matter is, is that the Broberg family befriended another family that was new to Pocatello, Idaho. And it just so happened that the patriarch of the other family, a guy by the name of Robert Birchtold, was a master manipulator, predator, and pedophile. And he kidnapped the Broberg's daughter, Jan, not. not once, but twice, while also manipulating Jan's mother and father and blackmailing them. Having sexual relationships with both, but blackmailing both. And it's an incredibly complicated web of deceit and deception.

And it's really very, very heavy stuff. So if I had to break it down, I'd say, oh, it's about. this family whose daughter was kidnapped twice and that's not the craziest thing that happened. No, totally. It's one of those shows or the film is this way too where it's like there are like seven moments where you're literally like what the

like at the TV. Yeah. How can this be? And that was that was my I mean that was my experience watching the documentary. I was not familiar with the film. Right. I was not familiar with the Broberg story. I got offered

you know the job and they said, you know, first three scripts and that was sort of my my entrance into the story and then someone had mentioned oh and there's this documentary you know you should check it out to sort of see where the story goes and as i was watching the documentary i mean i pretty much spent a lot of time on my feet just screaming why yeah why why did you make those decisions why did any of this happen and that ended up being really it ended up sort of being the galvanizing one of the the galvanizing forces behind me deciding like I kind of had to be involved right because there is having made documentaries before I know the balance between running time and wanting to tell all the facets of a story and it's hard to sacrifice reality for the sake of running time and, you know, continuity of narrative and things like that. But there were so many things that the Broberg family had to endure

that the documentary kind of just covered all of those things. On to the next. And then this happened, and then this happened, and then this happened. And lost in the shuffle, I felt, was the reasons why these people made the mistake. that they did. Well, I think it also, that time, that luxury of time, lets you sit with this family, sit in it. We have nine hours. The documentary had 90 minutes, you know, maybe 100 tops. So I understand that, you know, that's a limitation of a, you know, a documentary film in that way. But it is a step towards this incomprehensible empathy that, like, that may seem incomprehensible rather at the time.

but like the more you humanize and feel, see all the facets that this patriarch was a not just somebody that was taken in, but it was like a multifaceted, like loving, funny human being. Yeah. You can connect with the situation. I mean, you know, when I, when I finally got on a Zoom, and it was a Zoom, we made the appointment to have a Zoom with the lies of the director and they didn't throw you into a fishbow. I mean to a fishbowl and like have it be part of some festival. Our meeting was an actual Zoom, unlike some people I know. But when I met with Nick, you know, or shown her, I said, like, look, I'm only interested in showing why these parents made these decisions.

Right. And I'm not trying to sugarcoat. I'm not trying to forgive. If I just want them to be able to have the, I just want to be able to understand why they made the decisions that they did. Because to their credit, the Brobergs have admitted always that they made every single wrong decision that was possible. But I think what is often overlooked is the reasons why they made those decisions. And that reason is Robert Birchthold. He was a master manipulator.

He was a predator, and he not only groomed young Jan Broberg, but the entire family. And so at every point, they were making the wrong decision, yes, but they felt like that was the only decision that they could be made. And there's a very specific reason for that. You also have family members very much involved in this production, which, I mean, to different degrees in other productions happens, but the circumstances of this and how involved seems Jan was, and I take it on set and then available. I did a scene with Jan Broberg. Crazy.

Yeah, I mean, she plays a therapist at the end, at the end, you know, the last episode of the season. Amazing. Yeah, yeah. So I guess, I just, is that a helpful resource, or is it like, because you have so many different things you can turn to, you have your director on set, you have your scripts, You have the doc and you have the real-life participants. And that can be almost like too much information at a certain point or no? Well, yeah, I think there's a balance there sometimes.

I mean, it's definitely a fine line. I mean, none of us would have gotten involved at all, period, full stop, if she had not been involved. And that goes for Nick as well. Like, he would not have even attempted, you know, writing any of this had Jan not been involved and given blessing. and input. And so that in and of itself was a good enough reason to sort of start. But to Jam Broberg's credit, I got a note from her, a handwritten note when I landed in Atlanta saying,

I'm here if you need me, you're the only person I want playing my father. Go. Like, don't feel like you have to get in contact with me. don't feel like you have to consult me, like I'm very aware that you are playing a character who is based on, yeah, that is based on a real person. And that freedom that she afforded us, all of us, to which was basically just, hey, I'm here if you need me, and use me as a resource if you want, but don't feel like you have to. And that was such a blessing.

So, you know, for those first a few weeks before we had started filming where I'm just grasping at any straws to try and find out how I'm going to wrap my head around this, I was texting her and asking her all sorts of questions. I'm just going to ask you every single dumb question there is and just give me as honest an answer as you can and just know that there is no wrong answer. And if there is no, you know, if you say, I don't know, that's fine too. And that was really sort of it. And she had relationships with each one of us, you know, and each one was different. She was incredibly respectful of everyone's process. And she understands that because acting is one of her passions. So she sort of understood that, you know, we needed to have an ownership over our character.

characters are a story, even though it is literally her story. Right. Well, it's very generous. Yeah, incredibly generous. Where does this look stand in the pantheon of Colin Hanks looks over the years? Well, hopefully nothing like Colin Hanks? That's, I mean, to refer to myself in the third person? That's what you do.

You walked in and said Colin Hanks is walking. Yeah, you know, there was so much about this whole thing that just made me very uncomfortable. And by design, I agreed to do it because it made me feel uncomfortable. I mean, look, we're all coming out at two years of a pandemic in which we're all sitting around wanting to be able to live our normal lives and go about our daily lives and our jobs and do everything. And we couldn't do that. And during that pandemic, I just sort of said, I want to try and push my,

more and do things that make me feel a little uncomfortable and whatever that is like if I'm given the opportunity to do that I have to I have to jump at it and then and then true to form you know the sort of worst nightmare is so we've got this Mormon character who's super sweet and you're the only guy so please do it and it's just like oh there's nothing about this is really, like, I didn't really want to do that. I've never really wanted to try and play the incredibly nice, well-meaning, you know, no matter how dark it is, it's always a bright and shiny day kind of character. But that's who Bob Broberg was, and yet he also was going through, arguably, the darkest thing

that a husband can go through, the darkest thing that a father can go through. so I just sort of jumped at the opportunity and just said okay let's let's go yeah like let's just the let's go all out and the farther and farther I dug I just said you know what if you know how do you feel about shaving your head great let's do it like whatever I can do to not look like myself and whatever I can do to just sort of put myself aside at the beginning of each day and just say I'm literally you know my joke is always you know well I wear makeup and I pretend to be other people. Well, let's wear the most makeup

possible and let's really pretend to be somebody else. And so that's what I did. As long as he can bring the tiki bar, he's down for whatever you got for. Exactly. Exactly. I want to get a sense, just go back since we have the luxury of time. Let's first talk about television in general because

we're contemporaries and I assume we have some touchstones that are similar. TV you grew up on, TV that you were obsessed with. If I asked you, favorite sitcom, favorite game show, favorite drama. Do you have any nominations that come up? You know, yeah, sure.

None of them great. Well, that's okay. That makes them more interesting. That's fun. I mean, for whatever reason, I mean, it's almost embarrassing to say it because, you know, I'll say it and they'll go, oh, of course. But for whatever reason, I was obsessed with Hollywood Squares when I was younger. Shadow Stevens for the win.

Shadow Stevens for the win. And Jim J. Bullock for the block. These are the rules I was big on that I loved night court when I was a kid I just thought that was just the funniest show

I understood about 25% of the jokes but I They're bringing that back Do you know John Larricketts I heard yes I heard

Dan Fielding is somehow still alive I know his liver can't be well Which is incredible Well the irony is I remember sitting next to him on a plane

when I was younger randomly and I was so incredibly excited to be sitting next to John Larotette. This is Dan Fielding. And someone was talking with him and he's, and they said,

how's that show? And he goes, oh, good. Although part of me just kind of wishes that Dan Fielding would just get AIDS and die. And I just went, oh, wow. Interesting, interesting tidbit I'm learning about show business here. All right, I'm going to file that away.

But I just, I absolutely loved. I just loved that show that everybody on that show i thought was great um and yeah you know tv was um you know i was of the era we we are of the era where not only were you know was net network television still incredibly popular but cable became a thing and so i just watched i mean just a heroic dose of MTV growing up and just inhaled music television like No Tomorrow, and that was incredibly influential in my life. And yeah, you know, I just kind of watched everything.

Yeah. At that age, I remember the TV was just always on and it almost didn't matter what was on as almost the light was flickering. Yeah, totally, completely. Did you have, when you started to get into acting, because your dad was actually the rare exception back in the day. Back in the day, not many actors were able to make the transition from TV to film. Yeah. And he obviously did. Did you have like an attitude about sort of like or our goal in terms of what kind of actor you wanted to be and what kind of medium? Did you care? Were you

agnostic about where you were going to do stuff? It wasn't necessarily what the medium was. It was more about what the project was. And you know, when you start out very young, you have very lofty ideals as to what it is that you want to to do. which is not to say that at any point I looked down at the work that I was doing. I always was very appreciative of the fact that I was a working actor at a very, very young age. And it was what I wanted to do. It wasn't something that was forced upon me. It was something that I thoroughly enjoyed and I still do to this day.

I'm still incredibly fortunate enough to still be allowed to do it by the show Business Gods. May they shine down upon us all. You repeat that mantra every day. Every day. Every day. But I do remember, you know, I had been cast on a, you know, I was very lucky in that I sort of came up within this sort of teen movie, teen show like bubble. Yeah. And I was on a network that was called WB.

There was a frog involved. The double, double WB. Look that up. Very problematic. But I remember being on a show and I had been lucky enough to be cast in movies on hiatus and all that sort of stuff. And I remember being cast in Orange County. And that was happening, that was filming at the same time as the second season of Roswell. Right.

And there was this whole question of, well, can he do both? No, he's not going to be allowed. Powers at B and all that sort of stuff. And Jason Cademps, who was the showrunner of Roswell, was very thoughtful. And he said, you want to know this is an amazing opportunity for you. So we're going to write you off of the show so you can go do this movie. And I only bring all of this up because I remember that was of the era where once you, quote, unquote, graduated. Yeah.

You never had to go back. And I was told, literally, hey, congratulations, you'll never have to do television again. I remember being told those words. And, you know, that changed probably within about five years. Well, and, I mean, the good side of that, because that sounds like a dark, oh, no, they had to pull me back to this dog house. No, oh, not at all. But it coincided with this amazing advent of the best. Correct. I mean, dramatic material. Literally within two years, the Sopranos was on TV and it changed everything. And so I was very fortunate to, look, I mean, I've been witness to a lot in the last, say, 40 years of show business. So, you know, I've been witness to quite a bit, but I've actually been involved in more than half of that. And I've seen.

a pivot and I've seen a change. And it's continually to change. I mean, you know, every few years, it seems to be changing. We're doing a podcast here for crying out loud. What was a podcast in 1998? So I've seen everything kind of grow and evolve and I have found a way to still be invited to the dance. And for me, that dance involved television still. And that was where I was still able to work. And not only was I able to work, but I was able to stretch my wings and do different things and do comedy and do drama and be able to, you know, be able to play in a wider part of this, to be able to play in different areas of the sandbox.

Well, it's the kind of way that actors often used to talk to me about theater. It's like they could, they wouldn't be able to get the leading role in film, but theater, the pay wasn't as great, but the rewards were fantastic. Correct. Yeah, absolutely. And with television, you know, the amount of time that people take to tell stories and the kind of stories that they want to tell, that was just where a lot of the, you know, the opportunity lied. And it also seemed to line up more and more with my tastes and being able to sort of say, okay, well, what do I actually want to do? You know, how do I want to try and, you know, evolve and grow, you know, as my own sort of artist, so. What were the first auditions like? Because you talk about having this passion to go into acting. And in some ways, it seems like it's the hardest possible path for most people, let alone you with your last name. And I can only imagine that that preceded you the first few years.

Oh, it still precedes me. Well, I mean, it will precede me until my dying day. Well, it's receded a lot, thanks to the body of work you've established. But walking into that audition room, and I can only imagine a number of casting directors thinking, I'm getting a version. Maybe I'm getting a little bit of the Tom Hanks something when he walks in. Did you feel that? I mean, did I feel it not necessarily? I was definitely naive.

I was sort of coming into it knowing full well that it was definitely what I wanted to do. It was definitely what I was passionate about. There was nothing else. There was no plan B. There was no other escape plan. And this is invariably what you always hear, like, the advice for actors is like, you'd better be the only thing you can do. Absolutely.

Like, are there a lot of things that I would have liked to have done? Sure. Would have loved to have been a hockey player. I got flat feet and bad knees and can't ice skate. So that's not going to happen. But for the most part, there was no other plan B. And so I went into it naive in thinking, well, you know, sure, there's the name component and all of that sort of stuff. But, you know, eventually that's not going to be an issue.

And that was an incredibly naive sort of way to look about it because that was really kind of the only thing for a long time. And look, you know, there have been moments where I go, am I crazy? Because I keep expecting the outcome to be different and it's not. Right, the definition of insanity. The very definition of insanity. But it all, it actually weirdly all comes down to something that my dad actually did say. I get to ask this question all the time. You know, what advice did he give you?

And he said very, very bluntly, he said, look, if you want to do. do this, I believe that you can. He said, I believe that you are talented enough that you could have a career. Not the most amazing career, but you can provide

for yourself and maybe if you're lucky enough, a family. But you have to want it more than anything because the amount of stuff that you're going to come up against, that every actor comes up against, as well as all

of the other baggage is going to be a lot and it is going to push you and it is going to make you feel less than yourself and it is it is going to be a challenge that are going to be very very very very dark days but if it is what you want to do go for it and that was that was really kind of the thing i always kept going back to you know a little rumor control for you looked up some of the early roles and there was one i don't know if it was an audition or something rumored that you were up for, just because I'm a geek, I'm fascinated. Oh, I think I know what this is. You're going to know. Go for it. Star Wars.

Yes. Okay. Anakin Skywalker, supposedly you were thought of as a frontrunner or something. There's nothing there. So I did meet with the casting director like every other actor my age at that time. Got it.

Everyone went and had a general meeting in which you sat in a room and you were videotaped having a conversation talking about everything else under the sun except Star Wars

and I saw another actor who I knew was coming in after me and he's like hey and he mentioned it somewhere and then it became like a whole thing but there was there was that was it

you didn't get the white saber you didn't get nothing no I just got berated for 20 years from people like me no and I Like, not even anything for any of the new shows either. What? Yeah, nothing. Are you a big Star Wars guy? Huge Star Wars guy.

Huge. They only make, like, eight shows now a year. Your time is coming. I mean, I'm just from your lips to the show business God's ears, please. Have you watched Andor yet? Yes, pretty great. Oh, those first three episodes, stunning. Oh, can't wait.

Might be my favorite so far of the shows. It's up there, without a doubt. And Rogue One is also, I mean, just a fantastic film as well. So that is the, that is like, that's so much catnip for me because it's not only the universe and Star Wars and everything that I love, but it's also the kind of storytelling that I appreciate the most as an adult and as someone who actually consumes what is now called content before they were films and movies and TV shows. We've taken the art out of it and just made it into a module. It's just all content. But, yeah, that's like, that's up the alley completely. What else hasn't come your way, genre-wise, or whatever?

Like, what do we need to secret into the universe? Are there the kinds of things that feels like? Because you've had, I mean, as you've said, thanks to television, especially, a very, varied kind of career. But what aren't they thinking of you for that you wish that folks would? Jeez, that's a good question. Anything that involves a guy that is not nice? Okay, so you're over the... He's a jerk.

As you can tell from this podcast, he's a jerk. Well, you know, I think more than anything else, it's... And this is no one's fault. I think this is just the nature of commerce and storytelling at times. But for me, I'm just wanting to play as a three-dimensional character as possible. And a lot of times, show business, really is all about two dimensions. Right.

Do you know what I mean? Regardless of what they're trying to sell you at the movie theater with glasses. They really just kind of want something very simple and straightforward and something that you've done previously. And I have been very lucky, and it's what you've sort of picked up on, is that I've been able to find those nooks and crannies within television in which I've been able to subvert that and do things that feel that way. but are actually really something else entirely. And, you know, Dexter was an example of that. Even the Mad Men was an example of that. Fargo is an example of that.

I was gonna break up Fargo. Because you were in the first season of Fargo, which was such a wonderful surprise because I'm sure like me and anyone else with some degree of taste in film, you revere the cones. And you'd say, why? Why would you do that? It's not even that, it's just, what is that even going to be? Correct, yeah.

And you must have asked yourself the same question, And I guess the answer is through the filter of Noah Hawley, a genius writer. Did it feel like you were doing a riff on the cones? Did you know what he was going for? Did it feel like it was going to turn into what it was, or give me a sense? Well, I had no idea that it was going to be received the way that it was. I think that's the important distinction. Look, I had the same reaction that I think everyone else did,

which was basically doing your best Gene Wilder, Willie Wonka, Impression, saying, stop, no, don't come back. Do you know what I mean? Like, don't try, didn't they always, they already did a Fargo thing, you know, why are you going back to this? And the thing I was told is read the script, it's really good. And so I read that pilot script and there was so much about it that was incredibly unconventional. I mean, not just Cohen Brothers unconventional, but it just,

was very unique. And I read it and I said, okay, well, I'd love to, you know, at some point, No and I were sort of introduced

and put on the phone together. And he said, look, in a normal pilot episode of a television program, you would have your 10 characters that must be introduced within the first 10 pages

and then your story begins. And that's how television works. And he said, I'm not doing that. He said, I've sent you a script in which you are a season regular and yet you are introduced on page 50. We are going to be doing this very, very differently. But I promise you that when the full season is looked at, there will be a very specific point A to point B storyline for Gus that will be a full experience.

And just based on that alone, I sort of said, okay. All right. Well, I'll just sort of, you know, every creative, you know, endeavor involves some kind of metaphorical jumping off of a cliff. Right. And that was a scenario in which I said, well, I don't know if I understand it. I don't know if I will understand it, but this guy very clearly knows what he's doing. Right. So I'm just going to, going to jump off the cliff. I mean, I always say, I don't need, we were talking baseball before we started, I don't need a single or a double. I want people to go for the home run. take a big swing in film or TV and the arts. We've seen solid things over there. Just go for it.

Well, but that, what that, what I appreciated about that was is he was the one that was doing that. Right. And what everyone else was required to do was to hit singles. And I really enjoyed that component of it. Right. That idea of we're all signing up to be a part of this thing that on the surface looks like, okay we're creating a Coen Brothers cinematic universe like what are we like is this fan fiction like what is it that we're doing and that and I understand everybody's cynical point of view when they hear

about that mine was the same but as soon as you started reading the scripts and and talking with Noah you sort of understood like oh this guy's this guy's thinking much much bigger than we all are so I'm just going to cope I'm going to show up and do my work and hopefully it'll all make sense at the end, and it did. The other aspect of your career that we haven't touched upon, I'm not talking about the Kerchiefs, but that's a whole other aspect, but that's another podcast, but it's the directing and the documentaries, which is fascinating, and you're very well accomplished,

and I mean, folks should check out Eagles of Death Medal, all things must pass, about the Tower Records, RIP, I grew up with it myself. Of course. Talk to me about your goals, ambitions in that space, right now. Is that a parallel path to the acting? Like, what are you trying? What do you, how do you view the documentary side of your life? It's very funny because it's really, they sort of started off in two definitely, like, separate entities of the sandbox. And really, it came about because, you know, I was wanting to get work as an actor and it wasn't happening.

I was living in New York at the time. As a matter of fact, we were talking about that earlier. And I just wasn't working as much as I needed. And, you know, all of my friends were writers and they were writing stuff for themselves and all of that. And I just said, well, I don't have that discipline. But I was very interested in documentary films. And I love stories. And so I looked at it as a possible creative outlet for when I'm not wearing makeup and pretending to be other people. And that was how the Tower Records documentary started.

And once I was sort of immersed, in that world and getting to know other people within the sort of the dock space and getting more familiar with with with with with with with with docs and how you craft story and narrative and all that sort of stuff it ended up just becoming more and more a part of my bandwidth and so you know I've been very fortunate in that I've started a production company with my good friend Sean Stewart and who's also very you know enmeshed in the dock space and he produces a ton of docs and we've been able to create a company in which I'm able to direct docs, produce docs, long form, short form, a little bit of

everything. And it's really kind of been a conduit to hopefully at some point bringing, you know, the Venn diagram together so that there's a little bit of both, you know, whatever that may be in some sort of narrative feature, you know, down the road, who knows. But it's a way for me to be able to be creative in storytelling and yet flexing a completely different muscle. And it's been one that's, it's been incredibly rewarding and has informed, you know, the makeup gig immensely in terms of understanding where I fit in and how can I help? How can I be of service? What can I do to help push our story forward? It's cool to see also like your different passions. Also, again, that Venn diagram coming together, especially in the dock space, because, you know, music is such a

big part of your life, I know, and sports and baseball on this next one that you've produced, which I'm very excited about, say, hey, Willie Mays, which is coming to HBO and HBO Max November 8th. I mean, icon legend that is Mr. Willie Mays, and I take it he's participated in this. Yeah, yeah. He's never allowed a documentary to be made about his life. And we were fortunate enough to get a chance to meet with him and sort of pitch him on the idea. And he was absolutely game for it and and he uh sat down with us uh nelson george who's uh the director on the project is incredibly talented filmmaker uh really sort of just took the ball and and ran with it pardon the pun but i love puns and uh yeah i mean just incredibly fortunate in that i'm

you know able to be a small part in in you know in the wheel of trying to help enlighten uh you know fans, but just people in general about not only one of the most amazing athletes of a generation, but also an incredible individual and human being. So I'm really very fortunate to be able to be a part of that. And I know you've spent much of the last year basically living in the 70s, thanks to a friend of the family and the offer. Any gigs in a different decade coming up with the makeup job? Yeah, actually, I just came back from London. I did a brief little romantic comedy over there and a nice little palette cleanser if you will

what was the DJ mix on that one there was no DJ mix unfortunately you would have thought I would have gone you know just pure like dark death metal like kind of well yeah it could have been Black Sabbath it could have been maybe something more like our radio head or

oasis or blur any of those things but that was such a small go get it indie that there was no time for trying to come up with a place list for that one. It's been really great to get to know you more today, man. Congratulations. Folks to check out a friend of the family. It launches on Peacock October 6th. It's an impressive piece of work and a story that is, yes, seemingly incomprehensible and yes, you will be talking to your television perhaps, and maybe that's part of the goal. Yeah. But it's certainly a conversation

starter and it's a great piece of work from you, as always. We've just inaugurated this podcast studio at the Paley Center for Media. We've decided we should, we get to name it now, right? Yeah. What was the name that you came up with it. I think it's the Hankzwitz Studio. Hanksoitz Studio? Yeah. Live from Hanksoitz Studio. I think it's great. Let's get if I, if we're not back here and there's not like a really fake

looking, you know, a fake metal plaque. Right. We've done something horribly wrong. I aspire for more. I want like a centaur kind of beast like half you, half of me, like melded together, like a statuette. Well, you must have that podcast money because I can't help. I can't make that happen. I can't make that happen.

Congratulations, man. Thank you all for watching. here at the Paley Center for Media. It's been a real pleasure to be part of the weekend festivities. And thanks, Colin. Thank you. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressure to do this by Josh. Hey, Tom. You want to tell him? Or you want me to tell him? No, no, no. I got this. People out there.

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After a brief hiatus, my good friend, Michael Liam Black, and I are coming back. My good friend, Tom Kavanaugh and I are coming back to do what we do best. What we were put on this earth to do. To pick a snack. To eat a snack. And to read a snack. Great, a snack.

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