Happy Sad Confused - Darren Aronofsky, Vol. II

Episode Date: August 25, 2025

Darren Aronofsky's films (REQUIEM FOR A DREAM, BLACK SWAN) have been a lot of things but fun probably isn't the first word that comes to mind. Now with CAUGHT STEALING he's using his powers for a different cause. He joins Josh to chat about his journey from provocateur to his latest film. Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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none of you are safe. New episodes every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts. There's something so important about storytelling because every single person in the world can remember seeing a movie where it blew them away and they remember the exact theater, the exact time, the exact place where they were when they walked out and that feeling. And there's no one that's had a two-hour session on TikTok that knows where the fuck they were. So for maybe their couch or their bed. But that was memorable in an emotional way. And that's the power of stories.

Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now. Hey guys, I'm Josh, and this is another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused, with the one and only Darren Aronofsky, one of my favorite filmmakers on the podcast after a long, long break talking caught stealing, his entire career, his flirtation with comic book movies, and so much more. Thanks, guys, as always, for watching, for listening, however you're enjoying this episode of Happy, Sad, Confused.

You guys know I love a great filmmaker, and Darren Aronofsky certainly fits the bill. A very formative filmmaker for me growing up, so thrilled that he is back on the podcast. Before we get to Darren, a quick reminder, as always, hit up our Patreon. Check out what we've got going over there. That's where you get. Announcements like, who's coming up on the podcast, bonus materials, merch, autographed posters, announcements of live events. We've been doing a lot of live events lately, and there are many, many more to come.

I will be at New York Comic-Con doing a lot of things. I will be doing stuff at 90 seconds Street Y, other places, things, announcements to come. And as always, patreon.com slash happy, say I confuse is the place for all of that news. Check it out. Okay, let's talk about Darren for a second. Darren is one of those guys who, look, I'm a guy of a certain age. And for guys of a certain age, he was and is and always will be. A very important filmmaker.

I mean, I've seen all of his films. I think this is his ninth film, perhaps, and have been a fan of all of them to different degrees. Certainly, the early work made a huge impression on me, pie and Requiem for a Dream and The Fountain. And then, you know, as my career progressed, I started to get to know Darren and talk to him over the years about films like Black Swan and The Wrestler

and mother um so he's a fascinating guy he's a new yorker like myself and um i just love his big swings as a filmmaker uh he was one of actually the first guests on the podcast over 11 years ago if you can believe it talking noa at the time and uh somehow it took 11 years to get him back on the podcast but i'm thrilled it's happening for this uh caught stealing as the film it opens this Friday. It is in some respects a real change of pace for Darren. It is a fun movie. That's right. The F word. Fun. Which is not necessarily something you could say about Darren's films in the past. As much as I've gotten tremendous amounts of enjoyment out of them, this movie's goal is different. It is to entertain and be an escape and be a ride. And we have a great vessel in Austin Butler.

You guys know. I know in love. He is our leading man in this, and he goes on quite the journey through New York City in 1998 in this. Definitely a story cut from the same cloth of Martin Scorsese's after hours and the works of Scorsese and Spike Lee, et cetera. So really cool to see Darren channel his amazing filmmaking prowess in this way. He, as you'll hear in this conversation, is at a different point in his life where, you know, given where he's at, where the world's at, he is more open to these kinds of films. So it's an interesting time to talk to Darren about his priorities. This is a great chat.

Always could have used more time, but hey, I'll take what I can get with someone like Darren. There'll be more chats to come, and it won't be another 11 years, I promise. But yeah, we talk a little bit about this film's connections to the past to Pi, said in the same time period ironically and also his portation over the years with these kind of you know comic book movies big screen entertainments that he's he's come very close to doing whether it was Batman or Superman or Watchman or Wolverine so there's some stuff in there for folks that enjoy that kind of stuff and there's also stuff in here talking about his work on things like Requiem and Pie and Black Swan so something very

everybody in this conversation. He's just one of the cool guys to talk to, so really enjoyed this. If you want to see more of my conversations around caught stealing, coming soon, probably any day now on MTV's socials and YouTube page, had a really fun catch up with Austin Butler and Zoe Kravitz. Actually, it was on Austin's birthday. Surprised Austin with a cake. It's very sweet. I've already posted the photo on social. So that was a really cool moment. And yeah, lots more of excitement to come, guys. Later this week on the podcast, we've got Benedict Cumberbatch and Olivia Coleman together. Yep, you heard that right, talking to roses and many other things.

And then soon, very soon, I will be off to some film festivals, seeing all the cool stuff this fall, Telluride, Toronto, recording some stuff out there, getting into the really fun time of year for us film nerds. So that's where we're at. Here we go, guys. Enjoy this conversation. Check out Caught Stealing this Friday in theaters. Support Darren, support Austin Butler, support Zoe Kravitz, support Matt Smith, playing a punk rocker. Amazing.

And, yeah, without any further ado, enjoy this conversation. Here's me and Darren Aronovsky. Darrenovsky. It's good to see you, man. Good to see you. We're doing this. It's been, I was telling you before. 11 years.

11 years. You were one of my first guest. on the pod, so it means a lot that you're back. I'm glad that I'm not your first or last. Yeah, no, we're not done quite yet, nor are you. Congratulations on the film. Very much enjoyed it. Thank you.

I think the highest compliment I can pay you, and this is not a backhanded compliment, is that I feel like this is like a young filmmaker's movie. This is like a guy just starting out. Thank you. You've been doing this a minute. Yeah, well, maybe it's because just new leaf, new turn, wanted to try something different.

I just sort of, I don't know, I don't know, like, I just noticed my own habits of going to see movies right now, and I just really wanted two hours of escapism, something really fun, and not much else. So, kind of when I look at movies, I'm always like, well, work, no. I don't know. Just lately, I've felt the need for this. It does look, I mean, I love, first of all, like Griffin Dunn right from the start. It's like, yeah, after hours, I get it. We're in the right vein here. By the way, since you're a film freak, in the movie, after hours, his character's name is Paul.

Right. And this is Paul's Bar. But pure coincidence. Pure coincidence. Pure coincidence. Does this show continuity is this in the Darren Aronovsky universe? Are the pie characters running around at the same time? It's the same timeline.

Yeah, there's actually a bunch of hidden pies throughout the production design. Amazing. And I'm, I've just decided right now to do a... Easter egg hunt and whoever gets the right amount gets a free copy of a signed script. Look, there is like a punk aspect to this. You literally have a punk in the film. But like, talk to me a little bit about what it's like for you to still be kind of a punk filmmaker, you know, in your 50s as opposed to when you were starting out as a punk filmmaker in your 20s. Well, I like punk music. I still listen to punk music. It's funny because I had my

Music, Supervisor, Jim Malone, make me playlist for each actor in pre-production. We're actually going to release them now on Spotify as part of the promotion. And the only one I really listened to was Russ's over and over again. I just loved it. I just love the old punk music. I don't know, I think it's just the music I came up with at one of those founding moments. There's no, it's not weird that the Beastie Boys were originally. originally a punk band.

That's all, I think those aesthetics were floating in the water in the 80s in Brooklyn, so that's part of it. It's interesting because I know a lot of people are talking about this as kind of an outlier for you, and I get that in some ways, but also, it's funny to me that, like, you didn't write the script for this, but like, you're all over this movie. I mean, this is about, this is a film that's about addiction and redemption and paranoia and the setting. It's like you could have written the script yourself.

This does feel very much out of you. So I guess my question is like chicken or the egg, does this come to you and you see all the themes that resonate with you? Or do you kind of put your own into it? Yeah, I mean, there's a reason I read the book 18 years ago and responded and was excited by it. But then when it came back to us three years ago and I started working with Charlie, I was definitely pushing in certain directions.

A big part was like the characters, which I mean, it was partly co-written. by the casting process. You know, first, I think Ross, the next door neighbor, was just sort of a guy that looked like Hank. And I was like, that's not so interesting. And then I kind of, you know, one of the great things about living in New York in a fifth floor walkup for many years my life

is you just slowly find out that behind every door is another crazy New Yorker. Yeah. And I just imagine there could be an over-the-hill punk living in one of those, one of those doors. one of those doors. And so, you know, it started to go that way. Originally, it was a guy with an American accent,

and then I started doing the casting process, and one really good actor came in, who was English, who did it perfect American accent, but I was like, you know what? Try it in English, and it was like, oh, wow, that's interesting. So then I was like, told Mayor Van Nu, the casting director, I was like, let's look at British actors too, and then Matt shows up.

And then the president of the Matt Smith, Ben. So, yeah, I mean. Yeah, I don't know how that. But so that that helped. And also New York City itself helped write it. Yeah. And that was me looking at locations to solve certain problems. And that led to certain things.

So like the big kind of hostage handoff that turns into the chasing all happened in the baseball fields on the East River Park by the FDR. But that was being ripped up and redone and also just trying to do a chase scene on the FDR would be extremely difficult. Yeah. So just out of need, we just started looking, where else could we do it? And the idea of doing it in a park where there's no streets you have to shut down became very controllable.

And then that linked us to Shea Stadium, right? Because it's right there. And I had one of those aha moments. I'm like, oh, the Metsa there and this whole giant's wildcard backstory. So that's not in the book. It just sort of happened because we were really making it in New York City. I appreciate that you honored the actual, as a New Yorker, the geography. I always think back to, like, I love Die Hard with a Vengeance.

It's a great New York film in many ways. Geography is all fucked up. Yeah, I can't do that. You know, the biggest geography jump for us is, like, when he gets on the seven train, like, don't want to do any spoilers and gets off before he goes to Coney. Like, that where he gets off the train isn't quite appropriate. Well, that's okay. You know what?

That's the seven train. No one really knows those stations anyway. Exactly. I didn't know. Are you stealing any shots in this? Is Darren Aronovsky at this point in his career? I mean, I assume Pye was all stolen shots. Well, we definitely, we stole that drone shot through the Unisphere.

That was not a permit acceptable. So that was a stolen shot. No, we had permission on the subway this time. This time we actually had control of the train, which I was like, oh, you could do that. Yeah. We had like a conductor and the whole thing and safety so that it was very fun. Is there some nostalgia, though, like, you know, you are recapturing literally the same time frame, some overlapping locations to a degree with some of your early stuff?

Well, the funny thing is how Coney Island functions in this film is actually structurally and emotionally character exactly the same as it does in Pye. In Pye, Max wakes up in Coney Island, the last stop. Right. And then goes down to the beach, stares at the water, and kind of has a turning point. And it's kind of very similar, which is only, there was a fan site that posted that. And I was like, oh, they're right. discovering stuff about your own movie from the fans. That's how it works.

I mean, look, this is, you've talked before about, like, the influence of folks like Scorsese and Spike. Sure. And, like, I feel like this is the kind of film that, like, they'll get a kick out of two. I hope so. Have you, yeah, I mean, I assume

they are acquaintances by now in your life, so are they... Yeah, no, I didn't get to show it to Spike. I mean, Spike's movie comes out this weekend. And Maddie's a DP on that, right? Yeah, yeah. The two great New York films. I can't wait to see it. And I just, I wish, freak.

I hope I can see it when I get to. to Europe. I'm dying to see it. So. game, meticulously breaking down and explaining exactly why a film does or does not work? Well, good luck with the search, because we're having fun here on Adam does movies. Each and every week, I hit the big blockbusters, I cover the streamers, and I even toss in some movie news for fun. Check out the show on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts, on YouTube, and hopefully we can do movies together. Hot. So, elaborate a little bit more and that's kind of where you were.

Because you were kind of like when you made, when you wanted to make this. Because, you know, knowing your career as I do in our past conversations, like you've had some opportunities. You've come close to doing kind of like the quote, popcorn movie many times in your career. And I don't know, first like go back for me for a second. So at a pie in Requiem, I feel like that's like a, that's a point where you could have probably, I assume the offer. That's what Batman showed up.

Right. That's what Batman. Right. I was really focused on the fountain. I really never took that seriously. So I wanted to make the fountain. That's where I was at. Can you clarify, though, because like, how, like, did you have meetings with Frank Miller?

Like, how far did you get? We co-wrote a script, but my whole strategy on that one was I wanted to make this totally wild, crazy film about love and the search for the fountain of youth. And I felt like if I was on Batman, they might like. let me make it, which is kind of what happened, sort of. That's a longer story, yeah. But it was also, you know, I think the Batman that me and Frank Pitch was like really, or wrote, was a really kind of down and dirty duct tape type of movie that was never really going

to, you know, it wasn't going to be selling Batmobiles, no. I don't think I was the right guy at the right time. It was rated R. Right. It was definitely, I think a whole world of superhero films had a first come out to Yeah. Scrape the bottom of that barrel before they would go to rated R films like, right, like some of the later ones. Did you, did you have an actor in mind?

I've read somewhere that Joaquin was on. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. I mean, but, you know, famously, I pitched Joaquin and they were into Freddie Prince Jr. Oh, I didn't know. Yeah, it was like a different, it was a very different world back then of like, like, like, aesthetically what was going on, I think. It didn't quite.

So you were focused on The Fountain, which was a bit of a journey. Were there other, were you getting like a lot of offers at the time for, I don't know, like genre films for studio films? I mean, what was coming to you at that time? Wow, you're going way back. I'm not sure I was that any of it really stuck

and none of it was real. I mean, I did. I remember I chased Confessions of a Dangerous Mind. Right. That script was such a hot commodity at the time. It was amazing. It was amazing. And I got nowhere near it, but it was funny because I had the book.

That's why I knew about it. And I lent my copy to my producer, Eric, and he lost it. I was pissed off. And I went to the bookshop on St. Marks. There's that East Village Bookshop down the flight of stairs. And there was a copy. There was a copy of it. And I was like, oh, great.

And I looked and the price was a dollar. And there was an inscription and it said, to Red, I hope you like it. If not, don't sue me, Chuck. And the book is dedicated to Red, who I think is the Julia Roberts character in it. So I have the autographs on copy for a dollar in my house. So I was like, this, I'm supposed to direct this. And I told the story to Alan Horn and it just didn't happen. Amazing.

So then throughout the years, and we don't have to detail all the near misses or whatever, but like you did kind of like dance with a lot of things. There was Man of Steel, there's Wolverine, there's Watchmen. Yeah, Watchmen. But most of them were like a week. I think I was at Watchman. I brought it into Sherry Lansing and she was excited. And then I think a week later it was when she retired.

Okay. And so then it kind of disappeared and I never really, I forget what film I was working on at the time. I was interested in that one. You said you were a fan of Zach. a fan of Zach's. I remember we talked about that. You liked what Zach did with that film, actually. I thought it was a really committed, it was really committed to the source, faithful to the source material, and it was great. And then I watched the animated one that just recently came out, which is fantastic. Yeah, that's great. It's great. And then Man of Steel was pretty quick, too.

That's like a... I never got Man of Steel. I think they gave it to Zach. Okay. I wasn't ever on that. I think I did just a meeting on it, but, you know, it was not. You know, it was not. It was never mine or anything. I didn't, Superman's really hard. As we know, yeah. I thought James did a really great job with it. I thought, I mean, it's a crazy, difficult box to work in because of like the lore and the legend is so huge,

but it was incredibly creative. So where do you find yourself now coming off of something like this? Because now you have kind of made your popcorn movie and it's getting a really nice reception. Are you in the head space to kind of like go back all the way in the other directions? mother, et cetera, or play in the sandbox more? I haven't really decided.

I kind of want, I really think where I'm at right now is one of the great things that Hollywood does is it takes strangers with all different types of persuasions into a dark room and it puts a hero in front of them. and takes you on an empathy journey where hopefully if it's a well-made film, you leave your shoes and you're with someone else for two hours, and that connects you to a larger world and tells you an emotional story. And those heroes are the ones that kind of connect us as a culture. And that's kind of, we need that glue right now.

And, you know, we do it really well with superheroes and characters that are larger than life. But I think it's great when it's, like, human heroes. And Hank and caught stealing is a really, it's a pretty good guy. Yeah. He's not hurting anyone. He's probably hurting himself quite a bit. He's rough on himself. But he's not hurting anyone.

He's minding his own business. And we don't see heroes like that. Guys that keep getting whacked down, but keep getting up, trying to figure out what the hell's going on. And so that's what I hope. I hope, like, people from everywhere come into this movie and, you know, can forget about their phones for two hours and just connect. So I kind of like, I keep going back to, like, if Hollywood can do anything right now, it's shut up and dance and do what we do best, which is like just remember it's like, let's

entertain people, like, let's bring back the big musicals, not in real life, although that would be fine, but like just bring people in to have a good time. What you say really resonates when I think of, like, Austin's performance in this. It's really cool to see him do something like this because it does feel like it's like a back in the day. It's like what I love about the people like Harrison Ford and Tom Cruise way back one is like they, they knew the power of like getting hit in the face a lot and not connected you. But some force is perfect, I'm frantic. He did this. He did the hero completely.

And he always did it. Sometimes he played the president. Sure. But even though he was the president, he was still a normal guy. Yeah. Same thing with the fugitive. Yeah. You don't see them that many of these stories.

And Hitchcock did it a ton, after hours does it. Yep. I just like, you know, all those films from the 70s, they're just great and they're so grounded in the beauty of New York. So talk to me a little bit about, this might be the first film of yours that has no protests associated with it. There's going to be, there's no controversy for caught stealing. Is that a nice... I don't know. Some people might come out against Bad Bunny.

I don't think so. I think you're okay. I mean, that's an odd thing. thing. I mean, look, you have been a bit of a provocateur over your career. It's not on purpose. It's not on purpose. No, I don't think so. I don't actually, I couldn't believe that there was anything provocative about the whale. I mean, it was such an exercise and empathy. Right. And trying to connect with a character

that most of us don't have exposure to, you know. Yeah. So, at least I don't. So what about on something like mother, which I feel like some people... Mother was a total provocation. Of course. I was like running in, howling with my two middle fingers up into the fire because I was just like totally pissed off on what was going on right then. A lot of people just didn't even read it correctly though at first or didn't, like, missed the whole thing. It's fine. It's fine. It happens all the time. It could have been probably sold better. Right. Or more gradually. But it was, I'm really happy with the film. I love the performances. And it's the film I wanted to make. It's probably the most precise film I've done. Sebastian Stan said he had a panic attack during his...

Oh, love it. His audition for... No, his audition for Mother. He auditioned for Donald's character, apparently. Do you have any memory of that? Oh, I didn't know that. I definitely saw it, but I didn't... I actually don't remember that.

When did he tell you that? Oh, really? Interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Are there... Love it. Are there auditions over the years that you've put actors through that really resonated with you, whether they got the role or not, that, like, they jumped off... Well, at first time, past my head is Jennifer Connell.

Jennifer Connolly's read on Requiem was just like, I'll never forget that. She came in and we, I didn't know what I was expecting. And, but not like, not much, I guess, because I didn't take it that seriously. And she just came in and shredded the room. And it was like, oh, wow, okay, I guess she got the part, you know. So that happens.

You know, there's also, like, now I've been lucky over the years, like, certain actors have come into the room and I'm like, they're not right for the role, But they're a movie star. Yeah. You know, I remember Felicity Jones came in. I was like, oh, you're a movie star. Just not, it won't work on this one.

Right. There's been many of them like that over the years. Do you feel like, was there a big learning curve for you in terms of working with actors? Obviously, Pah, you're working with a lot of peers, young people, and then you're working with Ellen Burstyn. You're working with like this whole other level of actor. How did you kind of navigate that? With terror.

You know, I mean, in kitchen mitts, I was terrified. I was terrified of Ellen. I was just talking about this because we did the 25th anniversary of the film this year. Right. And we went to, I was talking, remembering this, the first time I hung out with her, I took out to the boardwalk in Cornell,

and I had a camera, a point and shoot in my pocket. And I was too afraid to take any pictures of her because it was like, I didn't know what to do. So I didn't get any pictures of that moment of our first meeting. It's funny, though, I saw the quotes also, it's also an anniversary for Black Swan and hear Natalie and Meet

And Mila talking about kind of like how you playfully kind of like pitted them against each other a little bit. First of all, you're you're leading, reading the clickbait of all those things. I fell for it. It was, it was totally, I'm so angry about that. I just saw those headlines. We had the most incredible conversation getting Natalie and Mila together. All they talk about is like this, because it was like the guy asked the question about the feud and I said, oh yeah, that was a silly thing that got blown out of water where I tried to pick a fight. and then they immediately saw through it,

and I was a total fool. And then the headline just becomes that re-does it that I was trying to kick a fight. I stand correct, and I apologize. The whole thing was like a tongue in cheek, like, hey, you know, Mila's doing really great. But like, Natalie was like, okay, text. Mela.

And the whole time we were laughing about it. And then, of course, it became a big story then, and now they pick it up. And then it's just, that's the thing that's driving me crazy about this, is that how quickly things get picked up to be, it's just really, it's just, it's just not, it's just untrue. Well, and what, the proofs in the pudding

of like the performances you've elicited from your character, from your actors, like the Oscar wins, the nominations. Yeah, yeah, they clearly enjoy the experience. Oh, yeah, oh, this is about them not, yeah, yeah, I don't have a problem with that. Actors, we have a great time, you know, that's one thing I'm confident in is like, if an average,

Actors ready to work, I'm ready to receive. Yeah. Is there an actor that's gotten in a way that you've wanted to work with for years that keeps coming up in your mind? Of course. Who comes to mind? You know, there's still a lot of great actors. I haven't worked with Meryl Streep. I haven't worked with Leo.

I haven't worked with Timothy. You and Leo probably have talked about something at some point. Oh, we've been talking nonstop. I've known the guy being Leo friends for, I mean, not the beginning of his career, but definitely the beginning of my career. Yeah. generous to me. I mean, there's so many. I'd like, I mean, even the comedians, Sandler and Ben Stiller, there's so many great people I'd like to work with still. I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the LA Times. And I'm Paul Shear, an actor, writer, and

director. You might know me from the league, Veep, or my non-eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters. We come together to host Unspool, a podcast where we talk about good movies, Hit. Fan favorites, must season, and in case you missed them. We're talking Parasite the Home Alone. From Greece to the Dark Night. So if you love movies like we do, come along on our cinematic adventure. Listen to Unspooled wherever you get your podcast.

And don't forget to hit the follow button. Goodbye, summer movies, hello fall. I'm Anthony Devaney. And I'm his twin brother, James. We host Raiders of the Lost Podcast, the Ultimate Movie Podcast, and we are ecstatic to break down late summer and early fall releases. We have Leonardo DiCaprio leading a revolution in one battle after another, Timothy Salome playing power ping pong in Marty Supreme.

Let's not forget Emma Stone and Jorgos Lanthamos' Bougonia. Dwayne Johnson, he's coming for that Oscar in The Smashing Machine, Spike Lee and Denzel teaming up again, plus Daniel DeLuis's return from retirement. There will be plenty of blockbusters to chat about two. Tron Ares looks exceptional, plus Mortal Kombat 2, and Edgar Wright's The Running Man starring Glenn Powell. Search for Raiders of the Lost Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. I often ask actors what's the worst note they've ever gotten from a director.

Yeah. What's the last thing you want to hear from an actor? What's a, I don't know, what's like a vibe or something that you can't joe with? What don't you want to hear from an actor? I mean, I had a really great actor. say, when I was like, oh, let's try it again, be like, uh, what else is there to do? Right. And that to me was like, well, hold on, I've been wait, you get to work all the time.

It takes me two years to get the set, and then it takes me like whatever hours and hours to get set up for the shot to figure it out. And then I get like, I don't know, 15, 20 minutes for the setup. And if I want another five, 10 minutes of like, let's explore it, like, it's not that I should want to, like, that's the party. Right. Let's see what the hell is going to happen. So I guess I think it was probably an actor who was angry.

And if I corrected them, would be, oh, yeah, of course. But it did shut me down at the time because it was a major actor. And I was like, oh, okay, well, I don't know what else they tell them to do. So, you know, mean directors are human too, is all I can say. Yeah. Well, time is so limited. As you know, time is the most valuable commodity on a film set. I mean, Fincher always gets flack for these endless takes,

but it's like, I get the method to the madness. It's like, this is forever. This is for all time. Let's get it right. Yeah. Yeah. It's also, it's not about getting it just right, because there's no such thing as perfection.

It's discovery. Yeah. It's discovery. Like things happen that are exciting that, and that's just the fun. Between action and cut is like when we get to create. Is there something you can apply to that, to this experience on Pott Stealing that you've found in the moment with Austin and Zoe.

I mean, they're great. I mean, Austin's just, like, so willing. Usually you have to kind of convince Austin that you have it. Yeah. Because he's always willing to get more. Zoe's also, like Zoe now as a director, which is a nightmare probably for some directors, but I love it because she's like, she's like thinking so deeply and so three-dimensionally that it's just great to have a collaboration.

Yeah, yeah. And a very good filmmaker. Yeah. Matt Smith is just a wild roller coaster of an actor where, like, each take is different in the original, I mean, Regina King, you know, like, like, solid, like steel, you know, just so solid. So this is just great actors on this. And then, you know, you're three-fourths of the way through the movie, you're tired,

and then suddenly Vincent Donofriy only have Shriver show up. to like bring the film home and you're like, oh, you got this energy. I love the structure of this film because the back half of the film is kind of a second movie. Totally. And the tone shifts, everything shifts.

And so it was great to have them to bring me home. I've been a life-punk fan of Vincent's, and he finally did the podcast a couple months ago and just a talk acting with this guy. And just like he lives and breathes the shit. He's just, it's like all- He's great. He's great. He's still like a young film student or something.

really gets the energy. You, I mean, you must be thankful you kind of came up when you did, because you came up with this amazing crop of filmmakers in this great time, and we're in a really weird time when now it feels like for film. And it's like, you know, the pies and the requiems, I don't know. They come, but they come very rarely. Yeah, we used to get them every year, right? Yeah.

What do you make, I mean, are you optimistic about the landscape? You haven't, you've never made a streaming film. I don't know if that's like a line in the sand for you or not. No, I mean, it's all about storytelling for me, and I would tell stories in many different forms, but, you know, I think it, I think there's a battle for storytelling. I think there's, uh, attentions are being pulled away by people swiping up and, um, you know, we're competing against 10 second clips, viral clips and memes. And, um, that's a battle we probably, um, I'm, I'm, We're losing that battle because attention is going elsewhere. But I think there's something so important about storytelling because every single person in the world can remember seeing a movie where it blew them away and they remember the exact theater,

the exact time, the exact place where they were when they walked out and that feeling. And there's no one that's had a two-hour session on TV. TikTok that knows where the fuck they were except for maybe their couch or their bed. But that was memorable in an emotional way. And that's the power of stories. And so there will always be a place for stories. But the question is, you know, how do we keep and hold on to people's attention?

How do we get their eyeballs and how do we get them to turn down the second and third screen and just like tune in so that they can... Because when you have a second screen going, you are not surrendering to a character. So I mean, I really wanted... I mean, that's why I was excited about getting Austin Butler because he is a great tour guide. And like, he's going through a crazy world in caught stealing, but you connect with him because he opens up his heart for you and you want to like hang out and he's like a Paul Newman, where you just like can't take your eyes off of him and it's like, okay, this is going to be who

I'm going with. Let's go. I know what you're talking about in terms of like, I mean, I want to still be in the world where like I was looking back at your filmography and looking at the box office grosses. And it's like Black Swan made like 300 million or something. I mean, that's like, I don't know if that world exists right now. Like it's, I, you know. We see.

We'll see. We'll see what happens. Do you see, you know, humble brag is allowed here. Do you see your influence on filmmakers? I mean, I see the Safdi's and I see you. I see you in their DNA. Yeah. I love their films.

I'm excited to see them. They definitely do other stuff as well, but great, you know. I mean, they're fellow New York filmmakers. I don't know them very well. I met them once. I think actually I met one of them once. I haven't met both of them. You know, I get to travel the world,

and I meet a lot of clearly Requiem has had its influence in Pye. So it's nice to get that feeling where people fell in love with movies because of those movies. Because I remember that as a kid seeing us, you know, there are films I saw as a kid. that was just like, oh, wow, that's interesting. What is that?

You must have had that experience when you were starting out with Pye and Requiem where, like, that generation ahead of you kind of connected with you and said, we respect what you've done. Was there a filmmaker that reached out or that you connected with in those early years that? I mean, I'll never, one of the first meetings I had is Ridley Scott called me in

to look at RKO 184, whatever. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think we have what's in that, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember walking in his office, a huge one sheet of alien when you walk in. And then I'm sitting there with Ridley and I was like, I was pretty great.

It's a great moment for me as a young kid. But yeah, I know, you know, I've gotten to meet a lot of the masters. Michael Mann's been really nice and Marty's been really nice and, you know, my, definitely my youngest hero, Spike has been really sweet to me and supportive over. over the years, and we share the same crew, so it feels almost like we're family. Yeah, so yeah. So we talked about the superhero thing before.

Is there a sandbox that would be tempting for you to play in at this point? I'm always interested, and I've always, like, kind of stuck my head in and seen what I would do. You know, once again, I do think there's an attraction to, like, real heroes. You want the human, yeah, yeah. Not just human, it's just like,

I think there's something big. bigger about connecting people to people that don't have the superpowers. Because like normally in this movie and what kind of the studio was asking me for when they started to read the script a bit was like, oh, you know, that's when the character fights back. And I'm like, yeah, but that, you know, this guy doesn't know kung fu. Right. This guy doesn't know how to load a gun in three seconds.

And that's interesting. Yes. This is a real person who doesn't know what to do. And that is actually, if you, that's actually true. True. So I think that's a limit to my ability, because the only way I know how to direct actors is truthfully and honestly, meaning I don't know how to like make them suddenly cool and put on a pair of sunglasses.

But I do know how to like make a real person go, oh shit, what the fuck am I going to do here? How do I do with this crazy situation? Yeah. Do you take a source of pride in, you mentioned record William, which just meant lots of filmmakers. It's also meant, I would imagine, like, you know, I don't know how you feel about kind of like films changing people's lives in a substantive way, but like, I would imagine some people have seen Requiem and not done any drug because of that movie. We just had a, yeah, I was just doing a screening in Austin and a woman stood up and said, oh, thank you for Requiem, made me sober. That's real. That's insane.

Yeah, definitely, absolutely. I've had, I've heard, definitely. I mean, Hubert Selby Jr. was a big sponsor of N.A. and A.A. for generations and saved lots of lots of lives. And so I guess his work continues. Do you also feel a source of pride? I always say, I think it's funny games and Requiem are the two films that are like, shook me to Michael. The remake or the original?

Both, both of them. I think the remake's good too, actually. Really? You don't like it? It's so, the original is so disturbing and so upsetting. I mean, the remake's not a walk in the park. Yeah, you know, it's hard for me. I think, and I think any remake is, even if

At least he did himself, right? He did. Hanukki did the remake, as I remember. Yeah, I know, he did. Yeah, but still there was. I don't know, it might be also something that the, something with the foreign language that adds to, like, a certain type of even more, yeah. But to my question, a source of pride that, like, Requiem is always the one that I bring up, people bring up as, like, that's the most disturbing thing I've ever seen. Oh, gosh. I mean, it was that part of the goal when you were making it?

At the 25th anniversary that they just at the Tribeca Film Festival, Ellen came out at 92 years old, and she was like, I'm going to watch. And I was like, I wasn't going to watch. but I was like, okay, I guess this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to sit there with Ellen after. Because Ellen hasn't seen it since the Cannes premiere in 2000, so it's been 25 years. So I was like, okay, I'm going to watch with her. And like, throughout the movie, she's like slapping me going,

shame on you! Shame on you! I was like, you did it too! You did it too! What was it like when the lights came up at the Cannes premiere of Requiem for a dream? Yeah, I don't really talk about that moment because it was a very special moment.

I mean, I can't even imagine. There is a videotape, and my producer who took it has lost it, and he promised that he would get it to me, and anyway, it's lost right now. Okay, we're running low in time. But let me just ask, I mean, you've had some passion projects over the years that took a long time to get to fruition, whether it's NOAA, et cetera. Are there any that are still around? Yeah, we're working on it. I've been working on this project called Human Nature for 25. It's not the human nature I came out for.

I mean, I think I read the script during Requiem. There's going to be a graphic novel a bit. coming out, starting to come out this year, it's like a 500-page comic, so it's a real opus. What's the nature of the story? Can you say something? It's a sci-fi kind of spoof. Oh. It's fun. You're in your fun years. You're entering your fun years down. There's a darkness. There's always darkness. You know, look, man, I think it's like, you know, the dystopian rust that Hollywood has gotten lost in. Yeah, we want to one Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, it was great, but it's time for this protopian search. Yeah. Like, we need to dream a better future and lead that way and dream towards positivity and bring good characters towards that. And that's definitely what I'm sort of leaning into now. The guy that made Requiem and Black Swan and these haunting- Yeah, but there's a, there's a positivity in those films. Sure.

There is. Yeah. By showing, and this all comes from Selby in Requiem for a Dream. It was all about you reveal the light by showing the darkness. Yeah. Last thing, do you think of kind of like the box set of your career? You've got a lot of years. No.

You're not the Tarantino where you think of like what the 10 or 20 films are going to look like. No, God bless them. I think it's, you know, I don't, who buys box sets anymore? That's fair. I mean, the rights are all over the freaking place. And I kind of, you know, definitely when I was younger, you know, Those were my heroes, the people that did that. But I think it's just now, just consistently bringing my best game with my best collaborators game to the projects that we want to make that are in front of us, that are exciting, that challenge us.

I mean, that's for me, like, how to keep my brain sharp. It's definitely by doing something different. Yeah. Well, this one, as I said, a little bit of a different gear, but it's still pure. Darren. Well, thank you. I appreciate it. I love it. I appreciate your time always, buddy. Let's not make it another 11 years before the podcast return. Okay, absolutely. No doubt. I'll see you next time around. And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley,

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