Happy Sad Confused - David Harbour

Episode Date: August 16, 2017

David Harbour stops by "Happy Sad Confused" this week to reflect on how his career changed completely after the ago of 40 thanks to a rare leading man role in the hit series, "Stranger Things." David loves talking the craft of acting and he and Josh thoroughly geek out on everyone from Branagh and Pacino to Winona Ryder.  Plus, David discusses how he's prepping for the highest profile film role yet of his career, Hellboy and why he doesn't care so much about winning an Emmy as much as being able to give a speech.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Because when you're doing big things, your tools should to. Visit square.ca to get started. This week on Happy Say I Confused, David Harper on Stranger Things, Hellboy, and being an overnight sensation after the age of 40. Hey guys, I'm Josh Horowitz. I'm also an overnight sensation after the age of 40, aren't I? Are you? No, no. The sensation part hasn't happened yet.

I am over 40. I'm just going to say, did something hit? No. Still the same old. Lockeed past 7 million views. Hey, don't you be knocking my loki? I'll never knock loki. That's our bread and butter here.

That's right. Thor Ragnarok around the corner, guys. Hey guys, I'm Josh Harowitz. Welcome to my podcast. That's Sammy, of course. This is the introduction to a very cool episode, an interview with Mr. David Harbour. You, of course, know David Harbour from his amazing role on Stranger Things,

his Emmy nominated a role. Yeah, that's right. We're rooting for David there. So he's up for the Emmy in a couple weeks. Is he going to give his to Winona if he wins? So I asked him like what he had planned for the speech because he gave that amazing speech at the sad. Yeah.

Where Winona then became an amazing meme. Iconic. So yes, he does have big plans for his speech, he told me. Whoa, you've got to win. I know. We're now more incentives to root for him. And he did say that if he doesn't win, he'll come back and he'll do the speech here. Oh, my God.

So there you go. So I kind of hope he doesn't. That we said, excuse me, David Harbour's Emmy speech. But I really love talking to him. You know, we talked, I think for the first time at Comic-Con, you were there. You guys really just fell in love. I did kind of fall for him.

You guys were like halfway to do the interview. Both were like making Googly eyes and like the same references. He's a New Yorker. He's like my age. He's very talented and I'm not. So we have a lot in common. Yeah. I watched it happen.

There were sparks flying. There were sparks. There were more sparks in this conversation, too. He's like, he's a, he's a true actor, capital A actor. Like, he's done so much, he's done so much great theater. He's been that guy that you recognize from a thousand things. If you look at his IMDB, you'll be like, oh, yeah, I've seen him in 12 different things. And now in the last, you know, year plus, thanks to Stranger Things, he's kind of elevated his status.

and getting more opportunities. I mean, he had a good career going anyway, but now he's just kind of a little bit more visible. So very happy for him. We talk a lot about Stranger Things. Of course, our mutual love, everybody's love, Winona Ryder. We talk about her. Very special.

And we talk about a lot about Hellboy, too, and just everything that's going on with him. So it was a really cool conversation. I think you as a theater... Oh, I'm very excited. Snob, guru, whatever you want to call yourself. He's acceptable. Yeah, he's an acceptable theater.

I think you'll appreciate this conversation, and I think all of you will as well. So... Did you talk about Hellboy, the musical? Is there a Hellboy musical? No. I wouldn't put it past. Maybe, yeah. I never know.

I don't know if he can sing, actually. He's on a lot of plays, but I don't think he's not a musical. He could do, like, the spoken words, sort of... Right, okay. Rex Harrison. Let's start with the movie first. Oh, yeah, I guess we'll see how that does. Okay, we'll see how that goes.

He's off the Bulgaria soon to do that. He may or may not have shown me what he's going to look like his hellboy. Sorry, guys, but it looks cool. It's just like those glasses with the attached mustache. Yeah, that's it. It's a very low rank. You're so stupid that you literally thought it was his Hellboy costume. I'm like, what?

That's it really? So anyway, a lot of fun stuff in this conversation. What else to say, Sammy? What was the sketch we just put up that? Aubrey and Lizzie. Oh, that's right, Aubrey and Lizzie. I knew we had done something silly recently. For those that haven't checked it out,

our latest after-hour sketch is up on the World Wide Web. go to MTV's Facebook page or MTV's YouTube page and it's a fun thing I did with Aubrey Plaza and Lizzie Olson Elizabeth Olson people know her as Everybody knows to call her Lizzie It's not just close personal friends

I do just want to say that I heard her mention Ashley at one point which I assume is Ashley Olson So for everyone else of my generation It was amazing Exclusive Lizzie acknowledges her sister She has, one of her sisters.

Yeah, just one. Doesn't talk about Mary Kate. Yet, maybe if we had more time. But she's great. She's done a sketch with me before, and I knew she was gaming. I've talked to Aubrey a bunch, but she'd never done a sketch, and as you can imagine. I loved them. She was really good.

They were both great. They were both great. And this was an idea that we had for a while. So check it out. It's bizarre and weird. I love seeing the comments being like, what the hell did I just watch? I don't know what this is, but I love it. That's a classic after-hour's response.

That's how you know you did it. What the fuck was that? just confusing young people around the world one sketch at a time so check that out um more to come one really special one that sammy's excited about i think it's going to happen stop stop not going to confirm it don't jinx it i'm not going to jinx it but i think it's going to happen oh my gosh oh my god oh my god i'm going to go i got to go so uh yeah that's it anything else do you want to get off your your chest no i'm i'm happy we're back i'm happy we're here we're here we're here guys Despite North Korea and rides in the streets, the podcast continues.

Happy, sad, confused, is living on it. Even the post-apocalypse, we're going to still be broadcasting with whoever the survivors are. Yeah. You can count on that. That's a promise. For me to the survivors. Whatever celebrity makes it to be them every week. That's dark.

Speaking of dark, he's played a bunch of dark characters. Let's listen to Mr. David Harbour. Enjoy this conversation, hopefully the first of many, or not first, but first long-form conversation of many, and next time we'll get him for a silly sketch. Oh, maybe in the Hellboy low-rent costume. Now we're talking. David Harbor has just entered my office through the raindrops of New York City. Thanks for coming, man.

Thanks, thanks for having me. It's good to see you. We're just reminiscing about the insanity that is San Diego Comic-Con. We saw each other there. Now we can just chill out and talk like human beings. Nice, not like screaming people and running around. That comes 10 minutes into the podcast. Oh, does it?

The streaming audience rushes in. People running up with little pictures and stuff and you assign them and stuff. Yeah, that's how it works. I'm excited. You're just welcoming more of that. I mean, when you return back to San Diego in a year or two, you're going to have like every little child and hellboy makeup coming up to you. I know.

I know. I seem to be going deeper and deeper into it. But, I mean, I got to say, like, you know, it's clearly a very complicated thing because it's so hectic and crazy for us. being there but you know it's nice to have a place where you can just totally geek out you know because I've been into that stuff sort of my whole life and I never really knew about it when I was a kid I don't know if it was as big when I was a kid yeah I mean well I know so you this stuff tells a bunch of the stuff that I wasn't want to talk to you about because we're about the same age

um and you you were born in New York City as far as I know or no no no it's born in White Plains Oh you're okay born White Plains so you grew up in White Plans Correct yeah Westchester got it did he spend a lot of time in the city growing up or was it? I did. Yeah, when I was about 13, 14, I think maybe freshman year of high school, I started coming down pretty religiously. Yeah. On the train, my friends and I would come down and we'd go to the Museum of, the Met Museum of Art, because we loved it, and then we would go try to get drunk at various places that would serve us back then when we were 14 years old. We'd like sneakily order Irish coffees and hope that

the waitress wouldn't notice. You know, Shirley Temple with a shot of art there now. Exactly. That's about our speed. We'd have an Irish coffee, so it would be all hepped up and caffeinated and, like, slightly drunk. Like a couple of baileys and keep it coming. Exactly, exactly. And then I actually came down when I was, like, 15 years old. I can't believe my parents let me do this, because I was so into Shakespeare and into acting and into New York.

Because the first thing I did, I came down, and I saw Shakespeare in the park. I must have been in ninth grade, and I waited online all day. It was Christopher Walken and Raul Julia in Othello in the park. and we waited all day in line, me and my girlfriend at the time. And I remember going and seeing Shakespeare in the Park for the first time and, like, that experience sort of changing my life and changing the direction of my life and being like, that is the goal. Like, I just want to be on that stage.

And you've done Shakespeare in the Park, haven't you? I've done it, yeah, like three times now, yeah, yeah. Is it still a little surreal? Yes, yes. You know, there was a moment in the play when Chris Walken, who played Diego. And in the play, everyone calls him Honest, Honest, Diago. And it was like psychotic, psychotic. I mean, it's completely psychotic, but he was terrific.

It's all in leather. And at one point, a squirrel, like, jumped up on stage. And he was in the middle of one of his monologues. And he just turned to it and went, bah. And, like, it ran away. And it was like, I was like, God, this is, like, incredible. Like, in the moment. I mean, it just, it blew me away.

It blew me away. So when I was about 15, I didn't, you know, Shakespeare in the Park wasn't really looking at me. But there was a little company in Brooklyn that did a play in Staten Island that did, like, half of Midsummer Night's Dream in Staten Island. I would go to, I would go down at Sunset Park, and this was like in the 80s. Like I'd go down to Sunset Park, Brooklyn, like, alone as like a 14-year-old little white boy and like go rehearse until like midnight, come back home, and then do the play. And like, you know, I don't know how my parents sort of let me do that.

I was going to say, what did your parents make of this kind of early obsession? The early acting thing? I mean, I don't know, they had mixed feelings about it, you know what I mean? Like my mom, my mom sort of loved it and my dad was kind of embarrassed, to be honest. Like he, he didn't like, he's sort of a depression-era kid and he didn't like attention being on him or attention being on his kid sort of. And so I think part of my reaction to doing it was this, you know, primal kid and his dad thing. It's like, I want to be different than my dad. I want to be like whatever that thing is that we're doing when we're like 14 years old.

So they had very mixed feelings about it. but I remember it also being something that was not at all, like, a real life choice. Like, never did it cross my mind or my parents' mind that it was something you could actually do and pay your rent at and, like, actually survive at. Because I grew up in Westchester, so nobody, there were no examples of actors or artists, visual artists, or singers, or it was all like real estate brokers, lawyers, doctors. So the idea was that I would take my theater skills into the courtroom. be a really good cross-examiner or something.

Right. Right. Out of law and order or something. But, yeah, I didn't ever think it could translate. So they always sort of saw it as like a, you know, funny thing. But there wasn't me something early on when I was about 16 where it was like sort of an in, unalterable truth of like having to do this on some real form. And what were you into as a kid in terms of pop culture, whether it sounds like you were definitely a theater kid and fell in love with that aspect. but I would think TV film,

like, what was your jam back then? Yeah, I mean, you know, growing up as a kid, it's funny because I'm on a show that is about this, but it's true that, like, my favorite movie was Raiders Lost Dark. I saw it, I guess, when did it come out? I'm like, 81, I want to say, 80 or 81, yeah. Yeah, perfect, yeah, because I was six or seven. And I saw it in the theater 13 times

because my grandmother liked air conditioning. And so she would take me for the air conditioning, because the movie theater everybody wins great air conditioning so she would sit there and sleep and I would watch Rays the Lost Ark

so you know that was really like my first understanding of like cinema was these big Spielberg action kind of epics you know which I love

and then as things went on like that sort of translated into for me theater wise it translated into me like Shakespeare even the Greeks even like Jacobians and stuff which I feel like has

that same sort of epicness to it. Sure what I mean. And I remember seeing in film, I remember seeing Kenneth Bronas, Henry V, when I was in eighth grade, too. That came out to Paris Theater, and a friend of mine took me down very early on in the run at the Paris Theater in New York right next to Plaza. And I saw Henry V with Kenneth Brunner, and that was another one where I was like,

it was like Indiana Jones, but it just had all this language meet. Instead of saying, like, throw me the whip, it was like, you know, once more into the breach, dear friends. I mean, it had all this, like, lush language. And anyway, I remember that too. I mean, I think I missed it in the theater but I saw it on VHS, but like it was like that soaring like Patrick Doyle's score, right?

Because I, it's funny, I was just talking to somebody about this. Like, I remember, I think I was, I skipped school to see Hamlet, his Hamlet, which also played at the Paris Theater. And it had like the intermission and it was 70mmeter. And it was just, like, it made it like sexy and cool for a film theater nerd like myself. You know what I mean?

Yeah, exactly. He had that blonde die job, but I remember the Danish sprints. And every, like, actor known to man from, like, Charlton Heston and Robin Williams was in that. It was so cool. I know, it's true. Like, Jack Lemon played, like, Marcellus. He had, like, three lines. Literally, every part.

Jack Lemon, wow. Yeah, yeah. Sorry, so we got sidetracked. So, you were saying, in terms of the film and TV, so what about actors? Was, like, Kenneth Branagh, like, an early inspiration, or what were the ones that kind of, like, you got obsessed with? Yeah, I mean, yeah, Kenneth Brano, what? was sort of an early inspiration. I'm trying to think of, like,

actors when I was, like, real young. Like, did you differentiate between, because nowadays you can kind of, and, like, I respect and love, like, Harrison Ford, but he's kind of, like, movie star actor. Exactly. As opposed to... We did.

Like, exactly. Exactly. We did make those distinctions. I remember, you know, I remember, yeah, I remember very much thinking that distinction in my head. It's funny that the more I go along in my career, the more I, the less I sort of see that distinction because I see the work. But I remember being younger, especially in college.

I think that was when it really takes off is like your opinions. The height of white night conversations arguing that Appetina is a real actor and Harrison Ford's just showing up. Exactly. And like the opinions and just the confidence behind the opinions. And like, you know, also we were so like I had kind of a group in college and we were all really into theater, really passionate about it and stuff. you know we were super jealous of all these people too and we would rage about like you know people that I know

now from New York I remember like us being obsessed with Billy Crudup and he had just come out with I think Jesus son when I was in college and us going to see it and like critiquing the shit out of his performance just being like well this moment and now I think back and I'm like man that guy's

first of all that guy's really great and then second of all like the consciousness that you have it that age and the opinions that you have at that age are so strong. But I do remember loving guys like Billy Crudev and loving guys like Ed Norton. Like that was when I really started to see kind of my peer group. I mean, those guys are sort of the same age than me, maybe a little bit older, but, and sort of really seeing what they were doing with acting.

And I specifically remember seeing Ed Norton in that primal fear and thinking that, and in American History acts in these movies and thinking that he was sort of doing a new thing. I actually sort of branded it as like a new thing. It was sort of a... He had all this visceralness, but he also had an intellect to him that I don't see in someone like... I mean, like Pacino, who I think is one of the greats,

like he's very visceral, he's very intuitive, he's got all this stuff, but in terms of that sharp intellect, I feel like he... You know, you don't really cast him as a super intellectual in that way. And I thought that like Ed brought like both of these levels. I was like really impressed by that.

I remember too that in that run he had like he was in like three or four movies like the first year. And then like he did like the Woody Allen musical in that. And he was great in that too. And it was like, oh my God, the range of this guy. Yeah. And I remember I was a, I dated a girl who had been a child star. And this is funny in terms of those career moments. And she actually auditioned for that movie.

And she was in the audition room with Ed Norton. And Primal Fear hadn't come out. and she had somehow known about it through a casting director that he was like amazing and I think this is true or maybe it had just come out or something and people

and I remember her saying to him like you're gonna be like a really big you're gonna be a really big actor and he was like no no it's like Richard Gears movie and like I don't really even really and so it's just funny to think of those moments

that we all have and where we're just doing our work and then you know the culture experiences it as this zeitgeist and you're just like no I don't know you're just neurotic as well yeah exactly Just like the rest of us. Exactly.

So where were you, as a teenager, like, were you, did you have your shit together? Did you feel like you were like, like, I know my path and like I got this figured out? Or were you kind of like a little rough around the edges? No, I was very rough around the edges. I mean, I still struggle with that. But I, no, I was very, you know, I think the teenage years are hard for everyone. But they were equally as hard for me. I mean, I, you know, I had a lot of.

angst and a lot of confusion and I think I poured that into I poured that into certain things that were good for me and certain things that were bad for me like so I wound up drinking a lot um and acting out a lot around that drinking it was I was never that into drugs but it was really I went pretty hard from high school on in terms of drinking and stuff and that was like you know it got me in a real dark place and then but then also in terms of my neurosis and my and my and my and my confusion about humanity I was able to like act and so in that way it was like very liberating like you could I was always very confused by human beings because I think that we I see a lot of people interact and they claim that one thing is

going on in their interaction like they're being nice to each other and then I don't see it that way or like or they're mad at each other but you can see that they're actually excited by or like I I sort of I don't believe people's conscious mind a lot or I don't believe their conscious intention when they tell you like I didn't mean to do that I didn't mean to do that and you think like so acting was a bridge for me

into starting to understand human beings and to not treat them in a like to be sort of forgiving of them and to play a character who constantly goes around saying like I didn't mean to do that and believing that but knowing that they're constantly acting out in a certain way or behaving in a certain way to

do something so so that was a very refreshing way to like sort of exercise some of those demons of like you know being a sensitive kid who was kind of a misfit i was never you know i was never a popular kid i was never a sports kid i was always like kind of buried in books or like video games or um you know kind of nerding out and and i kind of dressed in all black and like you know i was like one of those kids i wasn't quite you're dressed in black again as i say i continue to struggle with it yes thank you um but But, you know, yeah, I was sort of on the fringes because I always felt a little bit like Nick in Gatsby, like outside the window looking in.

And so I always sort of viewed humanity and popular people, especially like as like, what is it that they're doing and trying to understand? And like there's some kind of aloofness that I didn't add. I always had an intensity that I felt like was threatening and all these certain elements of my personality. So it was very interested in human being psychology and what they responded to, what they didn't respond to, what they were actually doing. what they said they were doing, all things like that. And so it really was able to be, like, liberating as an actor to go, like, play, like, to reveal that and, like, speak it, like, was, like, you know, it liberated me.

And did getting a handle on, like, vices coincide with kind of getting a handle on a career? Did that go hand-in-hand? Yes, actually one-to-one. And it's one of the reasons why I've stayed sober for so long is because I know a lot of people, friends of mine, too, who kind of have careers and then they realize that they're drinking too much,

and so they stop, and then they kind of worry about, like, whether or not they were better when they were drinking, sort of, you know what I mean? And for me, it was so clearly one-to-one, I can't even tell you. Like, I was drinking, and I was doing plays,

I had a theater company in New York, we were doing plays, you were writing plays with a nonprofit, but I was practically homeless, like, couldn't pay my rent. And I was angry all the time, and I was, you know, your face, I was bloated.

You know that alcohol bloat, right? That thing. And I stopped drinking. And I remember this was so funny. I had auditioned for a day player role and as the world turns the day before I stopped drinking. And I stopped drinking the next day. And then two weeks later, they called me

and they wanted me to come do. I remember I did have this moment with my guy that I knew at the time. And I was like, do I have to drink again? Like, do they want me because I had to come? and he was like relax special thing in my eyes he was like relax just go do it and then I did that and ever since I stopped drinking I've been able to I've been able to pay my rent

with acting yeah like after that two weeks and so I've kind of never looked back in that way and it's been so clear to me like oh yeah you're just a better actor when you're sober and that's a rare thing I think for people to find because some people really associate acting with that chaos I associate it with a certain brand of chaos, but not... You find chaos in other aspects.

Exactly. There's so many... There's plenty of chaos in this body anyway. I don't need a little alcohol in there, too. It's a garden of chaos. Really, pick whatever basil you want. So, I mean, we're going to jump around a bit, but I'm curious like, you know, I mean, certainly, arguably this last year, professionally speaking, has probably been your most successful, most significant in your career. Absolutely.

Okay. We didn't put that as a basic line. But as you say, you've been a working, jobbing, successful actor, especially in theater, but even film and TV. You're like, you're like one of those like, oh, he's that guy. Yeah. I'm sure you've experienced that for a while. Oh, so much.

Well, first on that. Okay, so like, you must still get that day to day. Like, literally, how do I know you? How do I get it less now because of Stranger Things. Yeah, that helps a bit. They don't always know my name, though. They'll be like, you're the guy from Stranger Things. Or the other one is my first name is Stranger.

Because they're just like, stranger things. And you're like, David Harbour. But I do get, I used to get a lot. I used to get this is like people coming up to me all the time and going like, hey. And you're like, hey, what's up? And they're like, we went to high school together. And you're like, I went to high school in White Plains. Like, no, no, Ohio, we went to high school together.

But it's just that they have some sort of emotional connection to you because they've seen your face. Maybe they've experienced an emotion. They've been like, oh, I hate that guy or I love that or whatever. And then they just associate that because they don't know, you're not Denzel Washington. So they associate it as like, yeah, it's someone in my life that I feel something for. So therefore I must know them. That seems like just like such constant awkwardness that I would hate. Like if you have like once or twice a day or even more or less like I'm not crazy about. That's a lot of long conversations and like you don't want to start to list your IMDB and like that's always the worst is the one where they they go like what have you been in and you're like do you watch a lot of porn what kind of porn yeah that's a weird one the other one that I had the other day which was great was I had something delivered to my house like from a messenger or something and the guy came to the door and he had the clip board he opened the door and he was like you are you and I was like yeah there's no reaction there's no proper reaction

I know. Al Pacino told me one. We just dropped that name here on the desk. He and I've done a couple plays together, but he said people come up to him. And he had one guy come up to him and go, do you know who you are? It's a great existential question. Like it's really, give me a second. Yeah. Food for thought. I don't know. So I guess my initial thought, when I was bringing up this amazing professional year you've, had like are you, is this what you imagined it would be? Because I'm sure there have been a lot of nights spent thinking of like when the quote unquote break happens. And you've had friends that have had the big break, the big TV series, the big film, whatever. And a career changes doesn't necessarily correlate with a happier life. Yes. I mean, I just, I'm just curious like when it comes and it comes after 40. Yes. I can I can categorically say I did not think this

moment will come from me. Really? Oh, yeah. And I was totally fine with that. Like, it's funny that people associate this idea of making it with being on the cover of people magazine or something. Like, I've been working as an actor and making, like, you know, over $100,000 a year for a long time. And that's like, it's like a great life. Like you, you know, you pay your rent.

You like hang out. You do plays. Do what you love. You work with a great life. greatest actors on the planet with the Al Pacino twice Broadway many times Exactly

So it was a dream life already And so I just had sort of Resigned myself Not resigned but just been like I'll just be this guy I'll be a character actor And it's a great life And also I've always had a thing

Where I thought that movie stars And even my friends who are them Like even a guy like Billy Crutup Or like you know Ed Norton or whatever Or Oscar Isaac or what Like I just feel like they're so damn good looking Like, I really, no, I really do.

So I have this, it's some kind of face neuroses where I just watch them on screen. I'm just, God damn, you're so impossibly good looking. You're so impossibly good looking. There's no way you'd put this face as the front man. Like, there's just no way. And so, you know, I was kind of okay with that. So when we, when I had a shot with this, like, I did, you know, I didn't know. it was funny even when they picked me I was like wow you guys must want a niche sort of a show

I really didn't know that it would be as big for for I didn't I didn't know it would be a big a show and I didn't know it would be as big for me um you thought the kids would be the story and yeah and also uh and also I don't know I thought we'd get lost or overwhelmed the acting wouldn't be seen as much as it is and appreciated which I which I I feel, you know, I'm so rarely proud of stuff. And so I will be unabashedly proud. Like, I think the work that me and others are all of us are doing in the show is really good

because I think that there's, I don't really see the acting a lot. And a lot of times, even when I watch good acting, like I remember having this problem a little bit. Again, extraordinary actor, it's probably my own jealousy. But like Robert Duval, I remember watching Robert Duval and stuff. And a lot of times,

like understanding that it was great or seeing the greatness of it but not really feeling anything and there are other Duval performances where I do like great Santini I feel like I just feel it but like even the godfather and like certain things with Duval

I feel like he's showing you a little much presentation a little bit like look at how good I am and you're like oh you are but I'm missing the character I'm just watching you and I feel like there's something about this show that's so earnest

and the performances are so earnest and they're so unflashy and unvane that I'm so proud of. So I'm, but I'm psyched that people in this culture, because I do feel like acting has changed in this culture with the result of television and stuff. Like, I feel like a lot of acting now

has become like standing there and saying lines and I feel like people's template for acting may be changing to a certain degree too. But the fact that what we're doing in that show is very much appreciative is very affirming to like what I believe about acting and what I believe about like good acting. And so I was like really psyched about that.

Can we talk a little bit about Winona? Yeah, hell yeah. So I know from reading about your relationship and just your opinion of her, like, again, we're about the same age. I grew up in love with Winona, like literally in love with Winona. And I've gotten to know her actually, too, in recent years she's been on the podcast. Oh, she has? Oh, cool. Oh, wow.

I didn't know if she's been on the podcast. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. It ends with, it's my favorite ending of any podcast ever, because as you know, she's kind of like on her own wavelength and her own world. And I mean that in a compliment. She's adorable. But like literally at the end of the podcast, I'm like, you know, you know, thanks again. Always good to see you.

And thanks for being on my podcast. And she just goes as sweetly as possible. Was this a podcast? Like, well, there are no cameras in here. Yeah. And it's from microphones. Oh, that's amazing. But give her my best.

She's wonderful. I will. But just give me a sense. I mean, because you've talked about sort of the inherent friction of those characters and how that sometimes translated on set was that is that something that I guess just how did that manifest or without you know as much as you're comfortable talking about yeah I mean look I think that to a certain degree if you want something is so complicated but I do feel like if you want something to resonate you got to bleed a little bit like and I I you know I've heard stories of like you know nonsense that

actors do uh in in the method or whatever where they're you know i've heard those jared letto mail i was gonna say did you get the rat on suicide squad i didn't have a big enough part uh but uh i wasn't will smith i can only afford six dead pigs harvard's just not gonna get one not gonna make the cut um no but that tevin nonsense or i've even heard some stuff around like uh you know dandy de louis which i have complicated feelings about but I will say that I do think acting when at best is very personal and so if you're not personally affected the character won't resonate the character will resonate as you acting but

if if David Harbour gets personally offended it will resonate through the character of Jim Hopper much more deeply than if I just play getting affected right so I do find that when I get into situations where I'm acting now because I care about the audience's response more than my own, whether or not people like me, I tend to be a little subconsciously deviant in terms of setting up situations

that I feel like will resonate payoffs. And Winona is very game for that. Whether she, like, consciously knows it or not, she's very game to play those things. So is this stuff before that you call action? This is stuff in terms of, like, you both get

on set and you know there's there's tension in that scene and you're consciously in your mind being like, I'm going to be a little rude or aloof or weird or around her and you see what happens? Yeah, yeah. It's more just like as the day goes on, allowing your instrument to resonate.

So there's a lot of times where something will come up in a scene or you'll get frustrated, right? And I'll say to myself as a human being, I'll go like, okay, you're frustrated, relax. Don't, you know, go back to your chair, have a coffee. And what I do is I allow myself the freedom to act out. I allow myself the freedom to say what I wouldn't normally say, to actually engage in a way that may be... The silence, the demon that we all put at bay, 23 hours a day.

We let it out, right? And I did find that Winona is so, she's such a pro in like what I consider what I consider like beyond pro. And I think it's because she grew up in it. And she does have a conscious process, but she's also just so intuitive that like she's so personal. and she's willing to like she's just willing to like she does it too i don't know if she'd admit to doing it but i see her do it like she does it too she's always thinking about um the scene above herself above us above and i am too and i so we would throw down you know and in those moments when you see you know but also in that way you can actually fall in love with someone because you can't really fall in love with someone if you don't fight with them if you don't show

them your underbelly of your own weakness and your own stupidity because then they see you and then they're able to love you and you're able to love back because you're like holy shit you saw me and you still are hanging out with me like that's beautiful or like there's so much more engagement in that way and I felt like she was such a she's such an intuitive pro in that way like she really is just an acting animal and so often you meet people who have who have all kinds of agendas of acting like they want to like be popular or they want to go to the party or they want to look good or they want to just be a good actor and be known as a good actor or they want they have so many agendas like a myriad of agendas and with Winona I feel like it's almost like

child likely agenda list and it's just like play the character and she just really is in it in it and I was like all right I'm going to do it too and like we're going to fight on set and we're going to like and also we're going to fall in love on set I mean as much as I say personal like there were those days where we just both couldn't stand each other and we're like okay roll camera just roll it we'll do it

and then there were those days where I would have late night conversations with her be at the chairs and I would be like I am in love with this woman like I'm falling in love my heart is like open so it is a head trip like to be an actor but she's I was so grateful

to work with her I was so grateful for what she brought because I couldn't have given my performance without her. And it was funny because we even talked, you know, at one point for all of us, there's another actor in the mix, right? That like this producer wants some other actors. And, you know, you know some of these people,

and you're like, wow, the particular alchemy of Mia Winona is so special that I don't, I don't, you know, again, the show might have been, but when I hear who they want for me or who they want for her, It's like, I don't know that they, I don't know that it would have been the same show. I think there's something about our messiness as people and as actors that is so rare and fun. And so I'm super grateful. So do you know the other actors that were, that they wanted? I mean, I have some inkling.

I occasionally will guess because it's just my own, like sort of thing is I'll guess. I know there was, you know, because that's the thing about all these things. Like, there'll be lists or there'll be, you know, things. things like that. So I know, I know some stuff. But I can't, I can't talk about any of that. I'm curious more generally.

But I know we were very near the top. I'll say that, okay. I'll say that. Okay, okay. Well, more generally, I'm curious. Like, were there, like, you know, I think of somebody like, you know, pointing to my Michael Shannon poster.

Like, I could imagine you guys were up for similar roles over the years, your same age. You have the same kind. There's some similarities I could see that casting directors would say. Yes. Is that fair to say? Yes, that's very fair to say.

Okay. That's very fair to say. There's a bunch of those guys, though, you know? It's like Peter Sarsgaard is another one. Sure. You know, there's a bunch of guys who have sort of a presence in film as that guy. They're not huge names in a sense of like a Jake Gillen host. They're not like sort of marquee idols, but they're guys who work a lot.

You know, I think like Sarsgaard and Shannon sort of kind of have bigger names. even like Corey Stoll or like through these guys who like you know they're known as like good solid well there's a presence and a delivery like a saw like you know you were going to get the fucking job done by any of the ones you mentioned or yourself and there's a presence and a power that each of them kind of can deliver yeah yeah I agree and it's funny like you do have these moments where you know there's a bunch of us guys who I call us like four to six Like, there's a call sheet in a film, right? And the call sheet always has number one,

and it's always like Liam Neeson, Denzel Washington, whatever. And then there's number two is always the leading lady. It's like, you know, Jennifer Lawrence. Sure. And then three is usually the villain, which might be us sometimes. But four to five are like the dudes who are like the dudes who show up and are the best friends or the like whatever or the guys who are. Give some colors of the palate.

Gives a little background. Yeah, and they're like the supporting, like, strong, And I do feel like I've had a presence in that way in film for a long time where it's like you get to a certain place and you're like, oh, I'll always sort of be able to, you know, and directors start to get to know you and they're like, oh, I just want to put you in here, blah, blah, and then so this is a transition point for me where I feel like, and especially with going to Hellboy now, like, I do feel like I kind of want to try being number one. Is that going to be your first time in a film being number one? Yes. I did an indie where I was number one, but very small indie. So what did you work, because you've, as you say, you've worked in many, particularly in thinking about the films

with, like, movie stars, Liam Neeson and Denzel. Was there one experience where you learned a bunch in terms of, like, how you would want to emulate them in terms of, like, that responsibility of being number one on a call sheet? Wow. I think there is a responsibility off camera, and then there's a responsibility on camera.

I think that the responsibility on camera is more important than the responsibility off camera in a weird way. I did learn so much from Denzel in Equalizer. I felt like I learned, I felt like I brought some of that into Hopper as well, but just about, all right, there's something about the hero's journey, which is a classic film trope, right?

The hero starts out in a place where, you know, he's kind of whatever, and he thinks he's okay and then he has to denies going on a journey then he ultimately has to go on the journey and then he winds up where he's at

where he didn't even realize that going on the journey was what he needed to do. Right, okay, got it. Or she. And so the classic like, I remember watching and I didn't watch the whole movie

but I remember watching the secret life of Walter Middy and I remember seeing Ben Stiller do something that I felt like was a trap that he sort of fell into as a performer he played Walter Middy at the beginning of the movie as and I didn't even know this until I watched

Zinzel unequalizing but he played him as kind of a nebishing nerdy guy who couldn't get the girl and like blah blah and you kind of saw it and felt it and then he denies the journey and then he goes on the journey and he winds up blah but you sort of felt what I felt watching that performance was I felt him knowing that the character

was kind of nerdy and off and had to go on a journey, right? And when I watched Equalizer, when I watched what Denzel was doing, at the beginning of the movie, he's obsessed with time and he's kind of got a life where he's kind of anal retentive

around like certain things. Is that the diner and he's reading? Yeah, he's like organizing stuff and he's also always timing stuff and everything. and but Denzel plays it like there's nothing wrong with his life and like but genuinely well it's back to what you were saying about sort of like getting lost in your own like narrative and not having kind of like that that outside viewpoint of sort of like yeah this is what I am

this is what I do I didn't hurt that person I didn't mean to hurt that person this is just I'm just behaving I'm just doing what I do yes and judging myself yes and but as a as a trajectory what's amazing about this, he doesn't think he's in a bad place. Right. And then ultimately he goes on this journey and then at the end, and it's just, you know, it's not a complicate. It's not Shakespeare, but he does become the equalizer. And he goes on Craigslist and he's helping people on Craigslist, right?

And in that beat, and maybe I'm reading too much, but I actually think he's a very sophisticated actor. But in that beat when you watch him on Craigslist, you're like, oh, my God. Like you as an audience are like, oh my God, that's what he needed. We didn't even know he needed that in the beginning. Like, we went on the journey with him because we didn't know that he wasn't okay. We thought he was okay.

And then when he got there at the end, we were like, oh, oh, that guy, had he not gone on that journey, like he wouldn't become an equal, he wouldn't have had meaning in his life. And that type of surprise and trust in your audience and trust in your storytelling, where you're not showing them a guy who has to go on a journey. You're just showing them a guy.

and then you're letting them retroactively realize that he had to go on the journey was something that we was something that we explored I think it happens in Stranger Things too with Hopper like I think even though you do kind of think he's a duch in the beginning but like he you don't really know that he's he seems like he's coffee and gone ablaze he's like having a good time and you don't really know until he saves Will that you're like oh that dude needed to do that right that dude needed to wake up

and so that's something that like from a leading male actor point of view and he does it very subtly is like to make sure that your character or at least whatever psychodynamics are going on underneath which i feel like are present in all of us right which is like we need approval or we need or we're missing something or we're seeking something or whatever those second dynamics going on make sure that the character themselves are not aware of those psychodynamics you as the actor can be aware but let but the character is not aware and the character in fact is actively unaware that there's anything wrong and that leads to a really satisfying journey and I I really saw that in Denzel and more than any other sort of leading man

like all the leading men I've worked with have specific things that they do well like like Al does a certain moment-to-moment thing that I've never seen anyone do but in terms of the conscious construction of that Denzel I think does that better than anybody and it's funny because I talked to him at the premiere of that and I was like I'm such a geek I'm like the I'm like the Chris Farley show

You remember the Chris Farley show? Sure of course Oh my God Yeah Do you remember that time When you did that thing Yeah So I went up to him at the premiere

And I was like You're so good in this movie man And it's like It's like an okay movie But you're so good in this movie He's like I am I am I was like Have you seen it?

He was like I saw a little bit of it That's the coolest man on the planet. I was like, wow, man. So I don't even know if it's just wildly intuitive or if he consciously knows what he's doing, but I learned so much about structuring a leading performance from that. What are you, what is the prep for something like Hellboy, which I imagine is like, there's physical stuff, obviously. Yeah. But what are you, like, what are you working on right now in a month or two before you start doing Hellboy? A lot of it is, a lot of it always,

when it's good is very personal work. And it comes down to like, because there is. I mean, I've been doing training. Not that I will have a thing. It's like a monster suit, basically. But I need to get strong and to be agile. So I've gotten a lot stronger,

a lot more agile for the stunts and things like that. That's part of the training. But to me, the hardest work is there's a play called Red about Mark Rothko. Yeah. And there's like, it's like him and an assistant of his. and there's the most beautiful moment in the play and I relate to this so much as an actor

and I even saw on Chappelle's special is Rothko sitting in front of a blind canvas staring at it and the assistant is like and there's a big long beat and the assistant goes when are you going to start painting and he goes I am painting right right right right so that's the work has begun yeah but it's and Chappelle

talked about in his recent special where he was like he called it the Dave Stair or something and like he's just out on a park bench just like staring. And you realize that this is the gestation of, for those guys, it's jokes, for Rothko, it's the painting. And for me, it's like the gestation of hopefully

the layers of character that you can reveal. And, you know, like physically this guy's different from me. So there's some physical work that I have to do. And but a lot of it is coming up with, I mean, and certainly structural elements in terms of how the script breaks down. So the character has to go from here to here. to hear and within these scenes this happens that's all work too but in general it's more about um

like a way of being that they are in private and a way of being that they are in public and uh and the the constructing of that psyche like he thinks differently than me right so everything that i process the world in has to change right and and the way to do that is to is very complicated specific way that I do it and it's hard like because it's like you just kind of want to show up and you know just do it like fun and you do need to that element has to be an element of it too because once you get on set like I heard Paul Servino talk about acting being like sculpture like you said my preparation is exhaustive and my execution is lightning fast right so when you're on set none of this work should be apparent none of it should even seem boa but right now it's a lot of like

sitting alone relaxing my body uh coming up with personal relationships, events, objects, sensations, ways of being that can make this character rich and unique, different than me, and really figuring out how to play him

so that he's affecting, heartwarming, scary. You know what I mean? Like, it's infinitely complicated. I could use another year and a half. And then I'll be ready. And having seen what Ron Herman did quite well into those two films

is there, like do you have to throw out every bag of trick that he used or can you, I mean you know, you want to make it your own. You want to be loyal to what Mike Maniola created. Yeah. And they're going to be inherent similarities. Right. So is that

a unique and odd challenge to kind of like... Yes. Fair enough. It's unique and odd. Because I do find that I you know, you sort of have a standard, right? And there are things that I'm going to do that are different than that. It maintains the same, like, Hellboy is the same character from the comics and from what Ron did.

Like, there are certain things that are the same thing. But I do think that, I don't know, there's a different approach because I sort of highlight different things I think than Ron does. Ron sort of embraces this machismo in himself and in Hellboy that kind of is this like thing and I really like it. I think it's super fun. I think it's a super fun performance. I don't, I think Hellboy has a certain psychodynamic where occasionally he has to prove that he's the liar and has to roar.

But I, and I think he struggles with his own masculinity. But I don't think he, I don't think he, I don't think he, I don't. I don't think he needs that as much as maybe those other movies did. I think he's got a, I have a bit of a different take on his capability or his slickness. I sort of think that for me he's a little less skill at constructing that persona. And just for clarification, is this, you know, this is obviously Neil Marshall's own thing, this is your own thing, it's not going to have contentious. Newity with those other two films

Per se. No. Like is it setting, like, does it like kind of, do you have to do the business of kind of like telling who Hellboy, I would imagine to a certain extent you do, who Hellboy is, how he came to be in that kind of a thing? Or are you just kind of like entering into the world? There is some, there is some thing of that,

but it's not really an origin story movie. Got it. Like we kind of pick up the movie like. During it. Yeah, like we're running and gunning. Like we're from the side. And we do have a little bit of stuff where we show stuff. But it really is a story.

and you just drop in with this guy. And so in a way, like, but in a way, I feel like that's kind of what Indiana Jones was, right? Like, you start with him stealing the idol, but also you do go back to the university and you understand he's an archaeologist and you understand these things. But, like, this is just a guy who goes and steals idols and fights Nazis and wants to steal the Ark of the Covenant. But you're never like, you know, you never go back and look at him as a kid. And you're like, how did he become Indiana?

It's like, no, it's just we accept. that this is Indiana Jones, and I think that's kind of what our story does, too, is we accept that there's this half-demon guy running around the world, like being a paranormal investigator and solving crimes, and also, you know,

dealing with his own issues at the same time. You get to fight another childhood crush of mine, Mila Yeovic. Yeah, right. It's fun. I know, I know. The fifth element herself. Exactly.

Yes, exactly. She was, hold on, can we talk about that for a second? Yeah. She was love. But love was a little element. fifth element correct yes it's been a bit it was like there was like sand and water Luke Perry in the desert and and then she it was love but she was love I believe that is true like Lilo was the representation of love that sounds right in that orange

wig and that have you seen the new of Lucan no it's pretty good is it yeah okay yeah it's worth checking out okay what how close did the cable thing come happening there was talk that you were going to do cable at one point. There was. There was. Um, I, uh, I did test for it. Um, and, you know, uh, one of those things. It's, yeah, it's one of those things. I don't know, you know, I don't know how much I could say about it. It was, um, it was definitely, you know, they were very, um, you know, I know Ryan and I, I know those guys a little bit. And so there was a lot of interest. I don't feel, I feel like it all sort of worked out in the end, though,

because I think that Josh will be great and great for that thing. And I feel like the Hellboy thing is almost writer for me because it's a little weirder and it's a little less, I don't know, it's a little more indie. It's a little, it's a little, I feel like we can do something special and I might have more of a more of a sort of creative hand in it and more of a sort of good and I kind of like that and even if you know I feel like Deadpool's the great thing about

Deadpool is like it's such a proven thing it's like you kind of know you're going to make a movie that people are going to see and they're going to make a billion dollars but and like hellboy who you know three people might come to see it we don't know but um but I do I do kind of like that I've always always in my career when things have come up that have been the shore thing and things have come up that have been like no I don't know about this like stranger things is very much like that too when we were like

you know they were like because I had friends who were doing you know I had friends who were doing the big shows that were going to hit which is like you know like shows that didn't

really work like final HBO or you know things that were like gold standard like we got Scorsesia we got like this is no brain and this was like two kids in North Carolina who kind of wrote No one had heard of the Duffer Brothers and also and even like producers that I had talked to

who had worked at Warner Brothers because they had had a movie that had been shelved there and producers were like, man, they're not so good. And I was like, oh, okay.

So I took a risk with these guys because I believed in them and it really paid off in the way that was, and that's the other William Goldman thing, right?

Which is like, nobody knows anything. Like, they really don't know anything. So it's like, look, you make a good movie and that's all

or you make a bad movie, but going in, you never really know. So my hope is just that we, is just that like we work really hard we make something really special with this because I want that.

So has anybody in this post like amazing new first year of the rest of your life given particularly great advice in terms of like you talk about nobody knowing anything and just sort of trusting your gut and going with the weird and stuff that feels right for you? I mean like what do you do with the power,

the collateral, the whatever you've kind of garnered in the last year? again, you know, I have this conversation with many actors that come in here. It's like, oh, is that, you know, the thing that's almost more complicated than not having any choice is having choice. That's very true. Suddenly, you actually have to, like, guide your own career before you can kind of like, yeah, I'll take whatever. Whatever comes to me, I mean, I'll make the best of that. And it's funny. I don't, I've tried to ask for some advice, and I've gotten,

I feel like, the wrong advice. So I, uh, you know, yeah. You know, there's a little bit of something, too, of an investment in terms of people in the industry, right? Like, and as you say, like, this is the funny thing about the transition that I'm making if I'm making it. Because, look, let's face it, like, Hellboy could be a disaster and I could just, like, burn out. I mean, we don't have any, but all I'm saying is it is sort of a transition for me to be number one on the call sheet, right? And so a lot of the people in the industry that I know and they're friends with are directors or writers or fellow actors or producers that are, me as number five on the call sheet right who's the guy who shows up in your movie and who's great in those three scenes and then like but doesn't isn't Liam Neeson we're not gonna you know he's he's

the guy who shows up and is great and so what I found in terms of the advice this is a I can't believe I'm telling you this but I have found that some of the professional advice that I've been given has come I think with a certain caveat attached which is like don't go from not being that guy in our movies anymore. Like, we want that guy in our movies. And so when you see someone at 40 make this transition to be like, no, I kind of want to try to be Liam Neeson here for a sec. And let's see how that works.

There's, I think, a bit of a threat in terms of, first of all, they're going to have to pay you more. They're going to have to not be able to just have you show up in their things as this thing. And so I think that it's any sort of movement in society in that way, I think is threatening to the machine. to the cog machine. So I have had very close friends who are super excited

and then I have had advice that is like, wait a minute, like don't do this, and then as I start rolling with it, they get, they start to get on board and excited. But the initial response to a lot of change like that is like...

Don't rock the boat. Yeah. And, yeah. Yeah, it's weird. Are you going to stay in New York? I am, yeah. Yeah, I am, yeah. I can't, I love New York.

so much now. I've tried to live in LA, but I can't. But the great thing about sort of having a good moment in your career is that you don't have to be. Like, I think the only reason why you have to be in LA is when you're not having a great way. Now more than ever, you can actually you can make it work. Yeah, you guys can send me scripts and we can talk about them as opposed to me having to go to Fox and, you know, yeah. You have to go out for every pilot season, etc. Yeah. Well, I'm thrilled that we've gone to know each other a little bit the last month or so between Sandio Comic-Con and this. We haven't even mentioned,

congratulations again on the Emmy nomination. Well-deserved for Stranger Things. I hope you get a chance to get up on stage and deliver another fun, exciting, crazy moment, like at the Sags. I have a crazy idea. Oh, yeah? Wait a second. Any hint?

It's much more personal, but I think that it's something that I'd like to say as an artist and I'd like to say to people. You know, it's funny people are so, people have such different feelings about getting up on stage. Some people want it to be very spontaneous. Some people want it to be like,

they feel shy or embarrassed or just thank you, and I'm such a ham, and I want to construct it, and I want it to be really what I want to say. So I definitely, yeah, I definitely, and I was so thrilled to be able to say that at the Saga Awards. I was a great moment. I was so thrilled that I, that it sort of is exciting to me.

and it's kind of the only reason why I'd like to win. Like, I'd actually be totally okay if John Lithgow accepted the award and said he'd like to cede his time to David Hartman. That would be totally fine. A win-win for everybody. Well, regardless, if you get up on stage or not, you're welcome to come back here and deliver the speech that would have been. Oh, thank you.

All right. That's good. Maybe I'll do that. If you give me like a fake, if I can hold up one of the superheroes here or something. I'll construct a homemade award. With a little ping pong ball in his hand or something? Yeah, that'd be great.

Oh, yeah, just as meaningful as the actual enemy. best of luck at the Emmys man and hopefully we'll talk soon congratulations and we'll see you on Stranger Things season two very soon. Yeah very soon thanks man cool thank you and so ends another edition of happy

sad confused remember to review rate and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts I'm a big podcast person I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh Goodbye summer movies

Hello Fall I'm Anthony Devaney And I'm his twin brother James We host Raiders of the Lost Podcast The Ultimate Movie Podcast And we are ecstatic to break down Late Summer and Early Fall Releases We have Leonardo DiCaprio

leading a revolution In one battle after another Timothy Salome playing power ping pong In Marty Supreme Let's not forget Emma Stone in Jorgos Lanthamos' Bougonia. Dwayne Johnson, he's coming for that Oscar. In The Smashing Machine, Spike Lee and Denzel teaming up again,

plus Daniel DeLuis's return from retirement. There will be plenty of blockbusters to chat about, too. Tron Aries looks exceptional, plus Mortal Kombat 2, and Edgar writes, The Running Man, starring Glenn Powell. Search for Raiders of the Lost podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube.