Happy Sad Confused - Don Cheadle

Episode Date: April 4, 2016

The amazingly talented Don Cheadle of Hotel Rwanda, the Oscar winning Crash, and War Machine in the Marvel films joins Josh this week to talk about directing his first feature film, Miles Ahead. It's a real labor of love for Don as he goes into all the steps it took to get the film about the legendary Miles Davis ultimately made. Plus, Don shares a revealing fact about his House of Lies co-star Ben Schwartz. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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or go to explorevolvo.com. Don't miss Swiped, a new movie inspired by the provocative real-life story of the visionary founder of online dating platform Bumble. Played by Lily James, Swiped introduces recent college grad Whitney Wolfe as she uses grit and ingenuity to break into the male-dominated tech industry to become the youngest female self-made billionaire. An official selection of the Toronto International Film Festival, the Hulu original film Swiped, is now streaming only on Disney Plus. Hey, guys, and welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. I'm Josh Horowitz. I'm the host of this little podcast where I talk to super cool entertainers, actors, directors, comedians. And in this case, this week's episode features an actor and a director.

My guest this week is the amazingly talented Don Sheedl. As if I have to tell you about Don Sheetle, I'm going to do. anyway, Oscar nominee for Hotel Rwanda, of course, part of the Marvel saga playing War Machine in the Marvel film soon to be seen in Captain America, Winter Soldier. He's the producer and star of the Oscar-winning film Crash, and he is now a feature film director. He's directed for the small screen on House of Lies, of course, his Showtime showed that he also stars in, but this is his first feature miles ahead is about to open, and it's a real labor of love.

This is a great conversation with Don to talk about a project that's, super personal to him. It is about, of course, the legendary Miles Davis, a character, a real person that Don plays in the film, and something he's been trying to get off the ground for years, as I reference in the conversation. This is one of those projects that you always heard about, and you knew he was developing, and I would always, whenever I would see him at a film festival or something, I'd always ask, how's the Miles Davis movie? And you could, you know, you could sense that he was just itching to get it to the finish line. And this is a very frank conversation, I think for for creative types that that are trying to get past a hurdle to get something to

come to fruition because I think it's really heartening to hear someone even at the top of the field like Don Cheadle be honest about the struggles the struggles of getting enough money of knowing how to direct yourself and something like this of of being dissatisfied with an edit all the way up to being dissatisfied with the film but being unable to watch the film It's a real, I think, unique peek into kind of the insecurities we all have, especially artists have, in assessing their own work. So, Don is a super smart guy, a super funny guy. We had a lot of laughs to admit the profound artistic conversation. And stay tuned towards the end for a fun little shout out to our friend Ben Schwartz, previous guest on Happy Side Confused.

A very revealing fact about Ben Schwartz, the House of Lies co-star. of Don Cheadle that is revealed by Mr. Cheadle himself. I'm not going to say much more except to say, check out Miles Ahead. Enjoy his performance and Ewan McGregor and a great cast in a very worthy biopic. That's really not a biopic at all. You'll understand when you hear the conversation. But for now, let's just give it up for Mr. Don Cheadle. Enjoy this conversation.

Let's do it. This is very exciting. Well, look, Don Fields in my fake office. Boom, look at that. We did it. Yes, this is not, usually you'd be subjected to my silly movie posters and paraphernalia, but I'm squatting here in the interest of grabbing you on a very busy day. Beautiful.

It's good to see you, man. Thank you. And congratulations on this one. I know this is a labor of love. I feel like I've talked to you at festivals and stuff of the last few years and, like, it was like, when's the Miles Davis movie? Once's the Miles Davis movie? I don't know.

It happened. It exists. It actually is on celluloid, and it's on digital media, and yeah, we're here. We need to get the good word out, because it's a fine piece of work, and I know it's, you know, something like this is not, they're not throwing money at you to make something like this. You're chasing after it. How are you feeling just in terms of, like, where your head's at now? Is it kind of relief? Is it excitement?

Is it, what's the emotion at this point? Yeah, there's a little of all of that, you know, there was, as you said, we've been hustling, you know, for a long time to try to put this together. and, you know, needing to find those irrational investors who would see this as something that, you know, they believed was a good bet. So we've been getting a lot of really good responses. We've been, all the festivals, we went to Berlin and just got back from South by, and we're in Sundance and Pan-African Film Festival. And everybody, you know, seems to be getting it and understanding what it is that we were attempting to do with this. a little different than, you know, some other quote-unquote biopics out there. Right, which, I mean, and I, you know, I've definitely debated this with fellow, you know,

film geeks over the years about, like, whether biopics generally work. And I would argue that, like, that cradle to grave thing is pretty, pretty damn tough and generally doesn't work. Yeah, I mean, it's, it mostly doesn't work because you're just sitting there feeling like you're watching the cliff notes. Right. I'm ready for my book report, but was it a good movie? Yeah, exactly.

And you're ready for the down note when, oh, and now he falls to the scourge of women and drugs. And then there's some, you know, resurgence and he reaches the pinnacle again. You know, it's, you kind of know the way that song goes. So, you know, that was one of the earliest things that I had said to the family when they wanted me to do this is that I did not want to do that. Yeah. So I'm really glad that they got on board and were of the same creative mindset

that, you know, Miles was a, and they went, yeah, let's do it different. For something like this, are you more eager to get responses from people that, like, know Miles Davis backwards and forwards, or those that are just sort of casual, or those that, like, don't even know who the hell he is? I mean, I would imagine it's all kind of interesting in the way. Yeah, it is all. I mean, I think that had the movie been something that the family was against, had, you know, they felt like there had been some disservice done to his legacy,

that would have been a hard pill to swallow. And I asked them all during this process as we were putting it together because, you know, look, there is definitely probably from anyone who would want to have a story told about their uncle, their father, their grandfather, their sister, whatever, a desire to have there be a quote-unquote positive spin on their life. somehow be a love letter, you know. But I always checked in with them and I said, look, I want to do a movie that I feel like your father, your uncle, would have wanted to star in rather than a movie that is... Rise to his level of cool. Yeah, and to his level of creativity and to his chase of different. You know, his pursuit of the next thing, not the last thing.

Yeah. So if we're going to do that, then I think we have to do something that's impressionistic and wild and crazy and gangster and just feels like it's an experience of Miles Davis as opposed to all that boxes checked off. And one could imagine, again, I'm by no means, I mean, an expert, you are, but like even just from watching your film and getting a sense of the man, like, he probably would hate a cradle the grave kind of like standard issue biopic. He would like want to burn the celluloid. And he on record has said that about some of them that had come out, you know. Yeah. You know, like, if you ever do mine, don't do that. And I would just say that to them.

I'm like, look, these are his words. Right. You know, these were his sentiments. And I think that, you know, if you are telling me that you think that he would have wanted that, then that's another discussion. Right. But if you think he wants something more like what I'm trying to do, which is feels like a composition. Yeah. I feel as opposed to just a, like we said, the cliff notes, then.

tell me that and they would always go, nah, I think he wants that. I think he wants it while. I mean, it is always obviously tough when you have, I mean, you have family members and you obviously want to honor their memories and stuff. I mean, I know, like, you know, I'm even following like another kind of biopic that's been on and all for years, like the Freddie Mercury thing

they've been trying to do for years. It's like they want to kind of like do a PG version of Freddie Mercury. How do you do that? Exactly. Exactly. That's not Freddie Mercury. And we've seen those PG versions of those guys in biopics where like that, no. No. That's not what I liked about them. That's not what I wanted to really see. Yeah. And I don't, I feel like you're, I feel like that's a craven attempt to get

as many butts in the seats as possible as opposed to going, look, this is the dude. This is kind of what was up with him. And I, you have to trust or have faith that you have enough of a sense of what is, uh, entertaining for lack of a better word, or at least engaging that there are others like you out there who will have the same perspective and want to come see it. Maybe it's not universal and that's why you're not doing it at a major studio, you know, that's why you're doing it in a way that allows you to have creative control at the end of the day. But, you know, you have to try to just stay true to the thing that gave you the cool feeling about it and then hope that that translates. Do you feel like, I mean, having been in the business a bit now and

like seeing sort of like the evolving landscape of financing and studios and the kind of stuff they green light was part of you, like as you were trying to mount this, be like, oh man, if I'd come around like 10, 15 years earlier, studios were making more, they were taking risks on this kind of thing more. And in this environment now, this is a tough sell. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it may have been,

they would have at least argued that it was a tough cell then just to try to get you to get your number down. Yeah, exactly. Back into some number that they felt more comfortable with. But, you know, when we first got set up in 2008, we did have more of that kind of relationship. This was at HBO. I mean, 2006, rather.

This was HBO, and they had a theatrical release deal with Picture House, and then the world broke. Right. And all of that went away, and all the mini-majors folded up their tents, and Picture House went away. And so we were kind of back to Square One and rebooted it with another writer, Stephen Beggleman and myself. And we knew it was going to be this kind of a battle, you know, and we went from being somewhere around $20 million to, can you do it for $17? with someone who then was like, yeah, I'm not interested. Can you do it for 15? With someone who was like, that's cool.

No, I'm not into it. You know, and we understood that it was going to be a process of both getting it to a number that was economical. And then coming up with the different ways to do it and places to do it, you know, places with rebate like Cincinnati, certain casting imperatives. And ultimately, you know, I had to crowd fund for it as well. So all of these things you have to cobble together in this environment to get these movies made sometimes. I'm fascinated by how forthright you were on just like the toughness of making the movie and the ups and downs. I heard you talking about this elsewhere, but if you'll indulge me, you finish shooting the movie, you get in the edit room, and it's not a happy day, to say the least. Oh, no.

Because this is what we call it the assembly cut, the first assembly, right? Yeah, the first assembly. I mean, I kind of didn't want to get out of bed after I saw it. Because it's not dissimilar, I think, to the experience that a lot of directors have, as I've, you know, talked to a lot of them. They're like, oh, you could look at it after a week. I couldn't look at it for a month. It's like, oh, I never looked at. I just had my editor do it.

And I came in at the very end, you know, people have all these different, because you're so exposed. You know, there's really nowhere to hide for me in watching this film. Right. And no one to kind of put any responsibility on other than myself if it doesn't work. Yeah. So when I'm watching it, you know, all I can see are the things that we were not able to accomplish in my mind. Still to this day, the finish cut rang. I don't watch it.

I haven't watched it for a long time. I thought, you know, we just had a screening in Berlin, beautiful 1,700-seat theater, very acoustically appropriate for the movie, and everything was going to be great. And it was such a warm reception when I came in. and I was standing in the back of the theater so that I could make sure the level was right. And I kind of said, oh, I think I'm going to watch the movie. I haven't watched it for a long time.

I think I can do it. Hold my hands, guys. And some moment happened, and the audience didn't react in the way I thought they were going to or should have, and I got a knot in my stomach and turn around and walked out of the theater.

You know, it was like it was... Who's that guy muttering to himself in the back? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who just cursed and kicked the wall. You know, and it's, that's what it is, you know, It's like, it's, but it's not for me to enjoy or to whatever. It was for me to get out and then get out of the way and let it do what it's supposed to do. I mean, I'm sure you had a great deal of respect for the amazing directors you've worked with to varying degrees over the years,

but do you have a different appreciation, a different vantage point on the art of directing, on what they go through, having gone through this? Are you going to look at directors? Are you already looking at directors in a different way than before the experience? Well, you know, I hope to have an experience of just big. a director at some point. Right. Even on the show, I'm almost in every scene that I'm directing. I'm always in these things that I'm helming.

So I don't know what that pure just director relationship is. Maybe there's more sleep. Maybe there's less sleep. I don't know. But, yeah, having to make every decision about everything. Yeah. And really having to be the final art. arbiter on what is, you know, going to appear on screen.

It's a lot of responsibility. And, yeah, I understand why they go through what they go through. And it's very challenging, too, when you're in the thing. And this is something that George Clooney and I were talking about. You know, he was saying, don't short shrift yourself. Right. I've heard that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because you're going to want to. Your instinct is going to be just move on and. Yeah, let that person have a bunch of tapes. And you do it twice and then move on. He's like, no, you've got to. protect your performance as well and and push away that feeling of I'm being selfish. It's like, well, no, you have to be selfish to some certain degree to protect that. You're the lead in the movie.

We're experiencing it through you. It's kind of a major. Well, and you also need, I would think you need someone on that set that you can, because you've got a thousand things in your head that you can be like, is that working? You need everyone on that set to do that, you know? And I think the best directors that I've worked with and what I tried to do on my set is empower those people to do that, to speak up. It takes a second because I think people don't believe you

and they're waiting for you to bite their heads off. And sometimes maybe you do bite their heads off a little bit. But at the end of the day, I think what was clear is that it was best answer wins. And it was an environment where, again, not dissimilar to how Miles put his bands together, that you're in that seat for a reason. You know, I hired you because.

because you have a certain skill set and talents that I need you to bring to bear on this process. And I'm not going to hire a DP and then tell him where he needs to put his lights. Right. You know, I'm going to have a say. Of course. And I will be obviously the final say about how that works. But you've got, you know, 40 years in the game or whatever, Roberto Schaefer, you know what you're doing. And I want you to respond and react to the piece as you understand it.

The biggest thing is making sure that everyone knows. what they're trying to accomplish. And they're making the same film. We're all, exactly, making the same movie. And that's one of the biggest jobs, I think, of directing is casting, quote, unquote, the right people around you, as well as the people in front of the camera to help you achieve it. Without naming names or feel free to name names, like being on sets of films, like, do you ever have a sense of, like, oh, I'm in a different movie than my director wants to make? Yeah, that's happened. Yeah.

And what do you do? open. Well, do you make your movie? Do you, do you? Well, if you really feel like you, because I believe, and even in my film, you know, I wrote Dave Braden, but Ewan's playing him. And when Ewan goes, I don't know that this works for Dave Braden, I have to listen to Ewan. Yeah. Because that's his granular, singular focus. It's his character. And when I've been on sets where I'm playing a character a certain way or I've understood the role to be a certain way, I don't care who's writing it anymore. That was something that happened on this page. Now we're live human beings, you know, living this out. I am a sentient. I'm not a robot. I'm not the non-geal robot they are. Yeah, yeah. You know how you

imagined it. Now, it's real here. And this is what I feel like works. And the best directors not only allow that, but they're asking for it. They want you to be in there. They know that you fleshing that out is necessary. And they're not super precious with their words or what their idea was that they had in their living room when they were at their computer. But now they've got a person in front of them. So those are the lessons that I've tried to take from all of the best people that I've worked with. Have you worked with the type and do you respond to the type of like, I'm always fascinated. I know a lot of film fans are of like the of the Kubrick and the Fincher thing of like the guys that do like the 80 takes and they and they are, I mean,

they're geniuses. They obviously are. No one can quibble with that. But like they have a vision. And like you and actors kind of, I mean, are more, they're the pawns. They're the living prop, right? A little bit. You're there to execute this. You're there to execute this. painting this moving portrait that I have in my head. And I guess those are the exceptions to the rule, but I mean, I'm just thinking out loud here, but like when they, if someone is of that expertise, I guess in that situation, you're like, okay, I'm willing, I may be more willing to be that. Well, I think you have to know what movie you're in too.

Like we talked about, you know, people knowing what the movie that they're shooting, I think that's the explicit and implicit understanding when you're working with someone like that. I am there to flesh out their vision. Now, within those parameters, you're still trying to find a place that you can be live and creative and not be an automaton because that's who wants to see that they even don't want to see that yeah they just want you to be an automaton within or a live person within these very strict parameters right right right you know so um i know we're jumping around a lot but

since we haven't time let's go back a little bit so growing up a big movie fan what were you geeking out on what was your what was your jam what were you into oh man i loved all different kinds of movies, you know, all different kinds of movies, from Sounder to Gallipoli, to Breaker Morant. One of my favorite movies of all times, speaking of Kubrick, is, you know, Dr. Strange Love, and it's something that, you know, I see kind of once a year and watch it with my kids. It's their favorite movie. It's amazing. So I, my, my taste kind of go all over the place. Was that unique to you in your family, or was it something in your family that, that like everybody kind of appreciated that kind of thing.

Were you the anomaly? Were you the weirdo or were you kind of like... No, no. You know, I wouldn't say that my parents were film buffs, but they loved good movies, you know? But shit, who doesn't love a good movie? Everybody loves good movies. But, you know, for my dad,

he really loved movies like Jason and the Argonauts. Sure. And... Ray Harryhaus and stuff. Yeah, all that stuff. And, you know, was really like... Had us first in line when Star Wars came out and Raiders and the Lost, starting... jaws he loved those big you know blockbuster movies yeah and uh he kind of got me into all of that

the sci-fi stuff so so when did you have a sense of not only were you interested in the stuff but that you might be good at it because that's two different questions i guess that's what you that's the question that do you feel that yet i mean i think it's a very neurotic the most people that I bump into, you know, most actors or performers to have that strong self-doubt. We just talked about you barely being able to watch your own movie. Yeah, I mean, that's real. It's just... And it's not unique to you, you're right.

I mean, yeah. I think most people, and people go, really? You feel that way? And I go, here's a small example of it. You know when you can call in and check your messages, but you have to hear your voicemail first? Right. said, who listens to, everyone goes, uh, and quickly clicks that on. Nailed it. Did it again, Josh. Yeah. Nobody wants to hear their own voice, you know, back on their own voice message. So

multiply that times a movie times 40 feet long and 25 feet tall. You know, it's like, it's a lot. It's a lot of you to have to take back. Right. So, and we often feel like we're just, barely hanging on to these characters that we're trying to to to embody yeah you always are at some cross-purposes with am i getting it am i am i am i there wherever this nebulous because there's no perfection there's no ever like oh i i got it and the next the rest of the shoot will be perfect because i've keyed into it you know you might like feel like you're getting getting it but you haven't gotten it no it's fleeting it's a moving target and sometimes you feel like you're in it and sometimes you don't and you're always trying to

scramble back to get to that and get the noise out of your head and stop third eyeing yourself and it must fuck with your brain too in that like there's that then there's the level of like oh i i nailed it on the set and then when you get in the theater like oh my perception of what happened on set and what actually the celluloid drew in was totally different i very rarely feel like oh i've nailed it i mean i very rarely feel like that and i don't know a lot of people that do feel like that you know don't trust those guys yeah those guys, and we know who they're on, they're like, you're terrible. If you see an actor walking off a set saying, like, crushed it.

Yeah, exactly. Like, you're finished. No, you haven't crushed it. I mean, it's like one of my favorite stories is a story about Olivier, being in Richard the Third and just killing one of these performances and his friends going backstage to see him and he's destroying his room and throwing a huge tantrum and a fit. And his friend said,

that was one of the greatest performances I've ever seen. What is wrong with you? And he said, I don't know what I did. Wow. That's amazing. I'll never be able to replicate it, you know, and you don't get to be in it and third eye it. You can either be outside of the thing

and kind of be watching yourself and judging yourself, or you can kind of, be in it and be lost, and you don't know, you don't know what's happening. You come out and people are giving you a look, and you're like, what, what just happened? Something clue me in here. Yeah. I was in it, so I don't know. And again, it's fleeting. It's just moments. You don't, if you, if you were that person all the time, then you have a psychological disorder. If you ever forget who you are, then we're talking about something else.

Yes. Does it feel like, like, since Devil and Blue Dress was, I think, for most people, I mean, you had been doing TV, but in terms of film, that was a breakthrough, obviously. obviously, at least seemingly on paper. Does it feel like it's been a, a since then, a level of comfort, a straight, you know, arc up? Or does it feel like you've, you've, there's been struggle in the intermittent years? Always. Yeah. I mean, just where we started up talking about, you should have on a couch for this conversation. I feel badly. I mean, this, this is our therapy, right? This is what we get to do. We get to go out there as performers and embody different people and work every sort of emotion out that we can in front of people. And that's probably why

that's nervous making because if you're really truthfully tapping into that stuff, you're exposing stuff about yourself. Yes, maybe I have the protection of the character in some ways to be my shield, but I'm not tapping into anybody else's emotions. I'm not tapping into Josh to figure out how Don feels when he's exposed and embarrassed or ashamed or any of that. I'm using my own stuff. Yeah, of course. To do that with. And that, if you're being honest with it and truthful and really letting it show that stuff is you know it's it makes you very vulnerable and and and and it can make you kind of guarded and not want to expose yourself and yeah yeah and that's the struggle you're always trying to figure out how much and and and what do I owe it

and what do I owe me and I like put the pieces back together after I've thrown all that stuff out there's just you know it's a trippy thing if you take it seriously it's not just about you know let me be out there and try to sign autographs. Speaking of signing autographs, I'm curious because, you know, I just had like Sebastian Stan, actually was on the podcast last week, talking to, like, all the guys that have gone through the Marvel machine

and these ginormous movies, they don't get any bigger. I mean, for you, like, it's, I would think it was different, it means something different in your career, for instance, than what it meant to, like, Hemsworth and Evans. And like, I mean, this was, like, made their careers. It's turned them into what they, you know, stars.

You were, you know, you had a great career, and you still have a great career. I mean, do you feel like in substantive terms, this has the last few movies, the opportunity to be in these Marvel films has changed your career, or has it just been kind of a fun thing and a nice group to be with?

Well, it may have, and I don't know how we quantify it, you know, but it may have broadened it. It may have introduced me to another kind of an audience, definitely a younger audience that wasn't, you know, aware of me other than maybe Hotel for Dogs or, you know, something like that. So in that way it has. And I imagine there is a certain amount of prestige, potentially, from being in movies that are like this.

There's a global awareness that may have been, you know, broadened by those movies. But yeah, it's all work. Do you know what I mean? It's all different types of ways to express ourselves and do this thing that when we were seven or eight years old was just playing around. and making a gun with your fingers and jumping around and having fun and playing make-believe, you know. I love that the word acting is playing in almost every other language. Right. Because that's what it is.

It's really just, we're grown-ups, but we're still that seven- or eight-year-old kid going, you got me, you know, you're still doing that. Did you end, obviously, you know, took over the mantle and kind of a complicated story with, you know, Terence obviously got a chance to do it the first time around. Did you have to sort stuff out with Terrence? Is that awkward between you guys at this point if you run into him? No, no. I see Terrence that, you know, once a blue moon at these things in an event or an award show or whatever.

And we're 100, and we were from the beginning because, you know, I was one of the producers that cast him in Crash. Of course. He knew that this was not me moving him out of a job. Right. He was not going to be hired for the sequel. and it was a vacant job. And they came to me and I said, yes. In fact, I saw him the next day at Warner Brothers.

And he was there for meeting. I was there for meeting. And I literally pulled up behind his car and he got out of the car. And I kind of looked at him and he kind of looked at me. I'm like, what's up, man? What's up, man? I was like, yeah, this is a trip. He's like, definitely.

And I'm like, we're straight though, right? He's like, no, we're straight. It's not about you. It's just a bigger, weird thing. Things. About him and Marvel. It was not about me and him. It was absolutely, you know. Had you ever been up for a superhero kind of thing before then? Or was this kind of like a total different thing than? Well, I had been up for that prior to Terrence. Okay. I met on the thing very early too. Yeah. And some of the producers wanted me. Some of the producers wanted Terrence. And they went Terrence's way. So I, yeah, I was in that room very, very early as well. Did, so bouncing around a bit back into the career, I want to bring up some like, These might seem like seemingly random roles that maybe you've talked about less in interviews like this. But I'm just curious because there are films that I really dig and would just love to get your first things that come to mind.

For instance, a film that I haven't seen in years, but I really appreciated it at the time was Colors, which was directed by Dennis Hopper. What was your experience on that? How did that come to be? Oh, crazy, you know, because I was in with the gangbangers. I was like, for real with the gangbangers. So in my set, the guy that was, you know, one of the dudes that was in my gang was a real gangbanger. And the guy that they had actually, in kind of a messed up way, arrested him early and told him, get all your friends in this movie, or we're going to throw you in jail on this humble that we have some outstanding warrant. We're going to, we can either let the warrant go or you can be in a movie, bring your friends in a movie.

Or you can go to jail. And so... It's all the fucked up, yeah. It was way fucked up. So, like, he went and got the rest of the set to be in the movie. And so it was, you know, I was with all these crips. And I remember early in one of the scenes, you know, Rocket's first scene in that drive-by scene where we're getting ready to roll on this dude.

And I tell everybody in the back of the car, like, you know, hey, shut the fuck up before we go do this thing. It was like two in the morning. Everybody's punched, drunk, we're tired, whatever. So, actually, we're doing it. They're talking, I'm like, shut the fuck up. Then we cut, and the j-ball in the dude's name was like, man, you sound like a little punk, shut the fuck up. Sound like a bitch, nigga, shut the fuck up.

Yeah, and so then I got a little softening. I was like, no, for real, though, shut the fuck up. And he was like, what? I'll kill you right now. Oh, and he just went into like, I'll blow the back of your head off right now. I'll get fuck about this movie. I was like, oh, my God, I'm going to get killed on the set of a movie for saying a line that I have to say.

So then, you know, action. I don't say anything cut. No alternate, nothing. No, you all right, don't? Yeah, yeah, I'm fine. It's a character choice. I'm just maybe, maybe you wouldn't say that. Go back.

They said it up again. Jaybon was like, I dare you to say it. I dare you. Say it again. I dare you. I was like, oh my God. So anyway, that was kind of a trial by fire. And by the end of it, you know, he wanted to jump me into the crypt gang.

I was like, no, I'm good. So that was a, yeah, that was a very early movie. And that was a funny movie, too, because three or four of my friends are in that movie. Because we all came down, we all had gone to Cal Arts together, and we all kind of moved into L.A. together and lived with each other and every, you know, shared money and kind of all just at the hangs shack together. And my friend went in and got an audition first, and he came out and he said, hey, you got to see my friend.

And I came in. I was like, hold on wait, you got to see my other friend. And I came in front of it. So all four of Dennis Hopper ended up. hiring four of us to be in the movie and it was great because we all ate good that two weeks or whatever. Devil in a Blue Dress, do you have like, you must have some special affection for that looking back and what it did for your career.

I mean, I know, I mean, I've heard you again talk about this and it wasn't necessarily you or Carl, like, weren't meshing it. It wasn't like you were going to do this. I mean, you knew Carl, but it wasn't necessarily the thing you were going to do. No, I had known Carl because when he was at AFI, I did his thesis movie. But I think he had had some. minted in his head that I was that 19-year-old, you know, that's who I was. And so when this movie came up, and I didn't see myself actually in it either.

It was my agent at that time that was saying, no, this is you. You were a mouse, and you got to do this. And I was like, well, Carl knows me personally. If he wants me to do this part, I'm sure he knows how to get in touch with me. And we were all at an ear, nose and throat. I was at an ear-nose-and-throat doctor. Okay. And the lobby just got super crowded.

This guy got backed up. It was kind of comical. They were like 30 people in this office, and I'm kind of crammed behind the door. And the door comes flying open and hits me in the leg, and in walks Carl Franklin. And almost immediately, the receptionist comes out and goes, there's too many people in this room. This is too crowded. You two go in that room. And the two of us went in another room by ourselves and just sat in another room.

I don't know what you have to talk about. Maybe a future film project. I don't know. It was crazy. It was crazy. And, you know, we talked about everything else. Family, how are you? Have you been?

And he kind of mentioned offhand. You know, I'm directing this movie. You're devil in a blue dress. And I was like, yeah, I know. I've heard of it. He's like, oh, okay, okay. And the next day, my agent called and said, Carl, he wants to see you.

I don't know what happened. I was like, I can tell you what happened. It doesn't make sense. But then, yeah, I went in and got to read with Denzel. And Denzel was the one telling him, hey, man, put this dude in the movie. That's the guy. Yeah.

In a much different note, what's the first thing you think of when I say Volcano? other than lava and Oscar snub suck on at Dante's peak yeah suck on it Dante's peak I think that too no I that was that that year I did

five movies you're off pick up fences by this point you've left picket fences and you're striking while the iron saw there's just a lot of opportunity yeah these things just kept popping up and I think I did five moves. I think I did Rosewood that year. I think I did Boogie Nights that same year. So let's talk, okay. Boogie Nights, I mean, obviously

a brilliant piece of work. And I was who else I talked to about this recently? I was talking about the Walberg about Boogie Nights because I'm fascinated by a number of things. Like, the stories are that like Bert Reynolds and was not into the PTA thing, did not trust what Paul Thomas Anderson was doing. No. You had a sense of that on set? It was pretty obvious. I didn't see that riff a lot, but that rift rather a lot. But I know that I knew that it was there, you know, and I would, you know, I know that Paul was like, oh my God, this guy, man, what did I do to get this guy to just trust me? Yeah.

I didn't trust Paul. I was going to say, did you? Because, I mean, like, in retrospect, I love like heart eight, Sydney, whatever you want to call that. But like, I don't know if at the time I would have, like, had, having just seen that, like, oh, this guy's going straight to the top or not. I don't know. And Carl Franklin is the one who told me I needed to meet him. And I met him and he's, I don't know if you've ever met PTA, but he's like a lot of wire. And I was like, this dude? And he was like, we're going to do this movie, man.

It's porn. It's going to be cool. I was like, porn. I don't know, man. My parents are alive. I'm not sure that I can even be in this film. But then he, and then the script that I, that he wrote was 166 pages long or something. And it was very technical with, you know, speed ramps and whip pens and different, you know,

angles that he was going to use. It was a really technical script. And it was hard for me to understand what was even happening. And cutting between all those different stories. It just seemed like a mess on paper. And I didn't realize until I got to know him that there was a huge brain up there that, you know. They can sort all that craziness out. That knew exactly what he wanted.

And that was so specific and so, you know, clear thinking about what was happening. And I just, yeah, I just surrendered. Talk about like a next level. I mean, you look at that in Magnolia and there we've what. It's like that's just, that's six-dimensional chess. It's just like, what is he doing? Yeah. Yeah, that's one person.

Yeah. A couple of filmmakers I'm fascinated by. Warren Beatty, who doesn't direct enough. I guess he directed something that's in the can now that we're eventually going to see. Oh, he did? Yeah, he did. He shot like a Howard Hughes kind of movie that he's been developing for years. But you were in Bullworth.

Yeah. What was your experience with Warren like? That was a year, actually, of shooting Bullworth. This is what I'm saying. This guy... It was, you know, and Warren was famously not forthcoming. coming with the studio about what he was doing. I was friends with one of the executives there at that time

who used to call me up and say, can you tell me what's going on on the set, please? Because whenever they would show up, he would just stop working. You know, and they'd stand around and he'd stand around and chat him up. And they go, oh, so what are you working on? Oh, we're just doing this scene right now.

So are you guys going to do anything time? No, we're on a break right now. So he would just stand there and wait until they left. He's like, you don't get to stand here and watch me shoot. And that deal was sort of the poison pill that had been left with the last studio head, I think, to Peter. The Warren Beatty Clause, he's just there. All he had to send them was a three or four page treatment, and it had to be greenlit.

So they had to make it, and it took about a year to make. But Warren was one of the early champions for me directing, actually. He would always harp on that and say, Don, you have to direct, you have to direct. And I say, I'm not ready to direct. Because I wasn't ready to direct when I directed Reds. You're not ready. You never are ready. You do it.

and you stumbled your way through and put good people around you and they'll pick you up. But you're not ready. You're right. You're not ready. So go get your next. Go get one right now. Just do it. Yeah.

Another one who maybe isn't like the warmest and cuddliest guy, but one of my favorite filmmakers is Brian De Palma. He's a tough. He's a tough one. Don't they sanitize as much as you need to, but what was the... Yeah, it was rough. I mean, Brian said during the making of, and I don't know if he's, was joking at the time, and I'm still not sure today, but when we were doing Mish

to Maris, he said, yeah, I want to make a movie that's so expensive and so bad that it actually brings down a studio. I was like, this one, the one we're on? Can you try that right now? Can you not do that right now? You're a little crazy. Is that, what, is that a note that I'm, how much, is that like some Japanese koan that I'm supposed to interpret and somehow deepen my experience of being stranded on? Mars. I don't know why you would say that. He says that it just walks when we walks away. Exactly. No, we all laughed and he just looked at us like, oh, that's funny to you?

Oh, no. He was in a weird place. He was an interesting place. Yeah. Yeah. I do not know. I mean, you were a producer on Crash, obviously, another labor of love and something or best picture. And you know as well as I do. It has like, there's also the baggage around it too. I mean, do you take that, does that get under your skin? you're like, what else do you need from us?

You know, you win best picture, you get all these accolades, and then you still have to defend it years later to some. I don't think you ever have to defend it. Yeah. You know, I think that, you know, I read some great quote that Anthony Hopkins said about that I'll mingle right now. But basically the substance of it was, look, I do what I do. I am what I am.

I put that out there and that I don't have to defend it and I don't have to make excuses for it or justify it. It's just, it is what it is. And if you love it and or hate it, I am actually, both of those are good with me. Right, right. It's like, it's not my, that's not on me to, to, once you create something, then somehow try to micromanage people's reaction. You've done your job.

You're not, yeah. You know, I think people hating it is appropriate. I think people loving it is equally as appropriate. I mean, do you understand it and why it's remained kind of a, like it was a lightning rod then? It's a lightning rod now. It's like one of those things you can just start an argument about in any, in any, in any, Yeah, yeah. Well, I think a lot of things, I think a lot of people, first of all, took it literally,

something that I always, you know, looked at as a fable as much as, you know, something that should be taken literally. Sure. Of course, all of these interactions and intersections between these human beings is probably not going to happen is in a profound way as the movie's trying to set up. It's not trying to say that. in my opinion. It's saying it's trying to expose something and it's trying to bring something up and then

have that debate about it, go into a room and have people argue about it, which is how the thing came to be in the first place, you know, was Paul being a part of a group at a school, Paul Haggis, the director, writer-director, and there was some, a kid was expelled for doing something, a young black kid was expelled, and the white kid that was involved in the same thing was not expelled and the black parents were really upset and Paul being his Canadian subversive communist outsider self was like well we should all get in a room and talk about it you know and being a writer and wanted to talk about it and everybody said yeah we should and he said and they showed up he showed up the next day

for the meeting and he and one other person showed up like nobody really wanted to talk about right right you know so he's like well this is this kind of stuff I want to talk about and have and have it be incendiary and have people debate it You know, because there are no easy answers for it. And one 90-minute movie isn't going to, you know, address it all. I'm curious, as we careen towards the end here, you know, coming out of this labor of love miles ahead. Is there anything else that you've spent as much time over the years thinking about?

Is there something else that's like... Other than my family? It's basically family, Miles Davis. I don't even know. You're a sports fan. I don't know what else is in there. Then the Broncos winning. Those are the three things that have taken up all that time in my brain.

So what do you fill it up with now? Now that Miles is expunged. I'm still out here hustling. You got like a week, though, to go. Six weeks, cat, I'm on this train. Okay. Sorry. I had a nerve.

But no, I don't, you know, there are some things that are, that have come up. Look, this wasn't something that was on a bucket list that I had to check off. I wasn't trying to. And you were looking for someone else to direct at one point, right? I was looking for the whole thing to go away at some point. to be honest, you know. But I've been very fortunate, very lucky, blessed, all of those words, to have the projects that I'm interested in and things that I want to do come to fruition,

either by just perseverance and hard work or, you know, grace, luck, all of those things. So, you know, House of Lives was another one that wasn't anything I was out there lobbying for, That was an incoming call, and it's something that's been a big part of my life that I've loved and had a great time doing. So if I just kind of stay open and things are kind of coming, yes, I'm writing more now and I'm developing more now. And there's things out there that I'm trying to put together, just like I try to do with this one. But I hope they don't take 10 years. Yeah, I'm at 61 going, you finally got that one made. Let me tell you about watching the assembly cut of this one.

You'll be relieved to know that I did pick the brain of our mutual friend, Ben Schwartz, to try to get some dirt that could fuck with your brain. And he had nothing but disgustingly nice things to say. And just like, it was just all, I don't know what you have on him. Do you want something on him? Please. Okay. I don't know if a lot of people know this.

He's, I don't know. He smells what? He is an odor problem? No, he's got like a 19-inch penis. And he shows it a lot. I mean, I understand it. If I had a 19-inch penis, I'd show it a lot, too. Right.

I've watched his work. And it's telescopic, which is a rare feature. How does that even work? What does that mean? Well, he can adjust it, which is amazing. Oh, at will, just like, there doesn't need to be stimulated. He's just sort of... Eight.

What do you need? What do you need? Boom. Where do you want it? He's a porn star director's dream. He is, but it looks really weird. It's pointed, and that's a strange shape. Triangle is a strange shape.

for a penis. Let that image haunt listeners' minds until they go see miles ahead and then they can swap out the horrible image of Ben Schwartz's and teenage penis with the wonderful images that you put on screen here. Congratulations. Honestly, it's always a feat to get something like this on the screen and you did a great job and obviously the acting you and you and you are wonderful and hopefully you get some rest soon, man. Thank you, I appreciate it. Good to see you. All right. Hi, guys. Daniel Schneider here. Eileen, you've done it again. As you know, Casey Wilson and I are obsessed with all the Real Housewives.

Eileen would be the cheapest, best date, because you could give her Claire's and she would think it's Cartier. So that's why we started Bitch Sesh, a Real Housewives break. breakdown show and we've got some really exciting news starting this week we're going to cover the brand new season of real housewives of new york city yes is erika here tonight maybe she is bitches so look for new episodes every thursday morning bitch sesh is coming to the big apple only on on this podcast i'll admit you come off like a little nasty This has been an Earwolf production, executive produced by Scott Ackerman,

Adam Sacks, and Chris Bannon. For more information and content, visit Earwolf.com. I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the L.A. Times. And I'm Paul Shear, an actor, writer, and director. You might know me from the league, Veep, or my non-eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters. We love movies.

And we come at them from different perspectives. Yeah, like Amy thinks that, you know, Joe Pesci was miscast in Goodfellas, and I don't. He's too old. Let's not forget that Paul thinks that Dude, too, is overrated. It is. Anyway, despite this, we come together to host Unspooled, a podcast where you talk about good movies, critical hits. Fan favorites, must-season, and Casey Mistoms. We're talking Parasite the Home Alone.

From Greece to the Dark Night. We've done deep dives on popcorn flicks. We've talked about why Independence Day deserves a second. look. And we've talked about horror movies, some that you've never even heard of like Ganges and Hess. So if you love movies like we do, come along on our cinematic adventure. Listen to Unspooled wherever you get your podcast. And don't forget to hit the follow button.