Happy Sad Confused - Ebon Moss-Bachrach

Episode Date: May 11, 2026

Whether you know Ebon Moss-Bachrach from THE BEAR, GIRLS, ANDOR, FANTASTIC FOUR, his extensive theater work, or his dozens of films, you know he's reliably excellent and as a human, perhaps one of the most unpretentious actors ever to appear on this podcast. He joins Josh to chat about it all including his new episode of THE BEAR he co-wrote and stars in with his longtime friend and DOG DAY AFTERNOON co-star Jon Bernthal. SUPPORT THE SHOW BY SUPPORTING OUR SPONSORS! Rula -- Rula patients typically pay $15 per session when using insurance. Connect with quality therapists and mental health experts who specialize in you at ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.rula.com/happy⁠⁠⁠⁠ #rulapod Quince -- Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Quince.com/HAPPYSAD ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠for free shipping and 365-day returns. Limited Time Offer–Get Huel today with my exclusive offer of 15% OFF online with my code happy15 at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://huel.com/happy15.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ New Customers Only. Thank you to Huel for partnering and supporting our show! UPCOMING EVENTS! 5/13 -- Matt & Ross Duffer in LA -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Tickets here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 5/17 -- Billy Eichner in NY -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Tickets here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 5/18 -- Power Ballad w/Paul Rudd & Nick Jonas -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠Tickets here⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Reese knows a thing or two about great combinations. Chocolate and peanut butter, obviously. But there's more than one way to Reese's. From indulgent Reese's big cups with caramel to crunchy Reese's pieces and Reese's miniatures, there's a delicious Rees for every mood. It's the same combo you love, just with more ways to enjoy it. So whether you're snacking, sharing, or just treating yourself, nothing else is Rees's. My first movie that I did was with Gene Wilder, and I remember him to.

telling me, and we were talking about different ways of acting and people staying in character. And he said, you know, it's incredible for someone to go and stay in character for the whole day and be and live that out and really be that person and transform into that person and live as that person through the center of everything. He said, what's more incredible is to do that and then to go home to your family and be like a dad and a husband or a friend. And that really stayed with me. Prepare your ears, humans.

Happy, sad, confused begins now. Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Today on the show, first-time guest, it's Eben Moss Backrack, Talking Dog Day Afternoon, The Bear, Fantastic Four, and more. Thanks, guys, as always, for checking out the podcast. Thank you for subscribing, or if you haven't subscribed already.

I don't know what you're doing. Do it right now. On YouTube, on Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. As I said, Ebben Moss Backrack is, main event today. He's got a lot going on. He is currently on Broadway in the adaptation of the seminal film, of course, Dog Day Afternoon, inspired by true events, him and John Bernthal. Speaking of him and John Bernthal, of course, friends and co-stars from The Bear, their episode, Gary has just dropped out of nowhere. They star in it. It's a backstory episode that they co-wrote,

a real labor of love. We talk about that, the final season of the Bear, his work in Marvel. A lot going on with this guy. A really great story. conversation. Before we get to Eben, as always, a reminder. If you like what I do, check out our Patreon. Patreon.com slash happy, sad confused. We've always got a lot of events coming. And here are just a few in just, I think, about 48 hours. If you're watching or listening to this right, when this drops, I'll be in Los Angeles with the Duffer Brothers. Tickets are still available. We are diving into the end of Stranger Things. These guys always have a lot to say. They always inspire a little controversy. Come on out. See them live.

a special video message for the one and only David Harbor and more surprises. Tickets are still available. The link is in the show notes. Also talking to Billy Eichner on May 17th in New York City. That's going to be fun one. He has a new audio memoir. And on May 18th in New York, get a little of this. We are talking to the stars and director of Power Bow, this great new movie directed by John Carney and starring Paul Rudd and Nick Jonas. They are all joining me, May 18th, New York City, and we are screening the film. So a lot of opportunities to see me do my thing in person and as always all that information and discount codes is on our patreon patreon.com slash happy sad confused okay like i said main event ebon moss back rack i'm not going to talk

anymore because you want to hear from the man himself uh what a chill great guy we also talk about girls of course um and yeah just so happy he finally did the podcast he's been one that i've been circling for a while so it was worth the wait i know you guys can enjoy this one here he is me and Evan Moss backwreck. Evan. Josh. Are you ready for this? No.

Don't know what you signed up for today. But here we are. Thank you for doing this man. Whether you know it or not, you've been on the list. They're bad lists and good lists. This is a good list. Okay.

You've been on the list for happy. So intrigued about the bad list. Can we get right into that? Who's on that one? Well, that's the naughty list. That's obviously no Christmas presents. That's Santa's list. I have no bad list.

Oh, you don't have a bad list, though. Maybe I should start one today, though. I don't know. I hear that yeah I know some podcasters get like if some last minute cancellation well yeah off mic we can talk about some people see here we know we can go there let's see how familiar we get yeah uh you are the first i've been on this podcast okay naturally um first back rack not the moss we can count Elizabeth Moss i guess in the middle there sure um did your was your name ever a name that felt like a hindrance did anybody ever say like you got to change the name

professionally speaking my name feels like a hindrance every second of every day for me it is a it is a fucking mouthful man um but i'm bucks what do they what do they think what i think you're saying oh yeah i don't mess with starbucks really too much but it but it is like you know i'll just drop the back rack when i'm trying to like get a reservation or something and then do things you know things like things like things like that it just seems like too much um i once um was on a list of like uh people on like a host committee for some sort of benefit thing and there was I don't know maybe 50 actors or something and the only person longer than me was Cedric the entertainer which was his given

birth name I believe yeah he came out of the womb said no see he show see he I've you know he shows it he he he chose it but this was something given to me no one ever said maybe change it I thought about it for a while and then I don't know I was too lazy or proud or you know I'm from Massachusetts and you know I didn't want that whole you know change it up and then people say, well, you know, who do you think you are? Right, you know. Right. Did you ever entertain?

Did you have a list going? Did you have an alternate name in mind? Oh, no, I never really made it that far. Now obviously people know the name, know who you are. Like I feel like you have a sweet spot of a really good level of celebrity. Like is that fair to say? I feel like you can walk the streets. You're fine.

Also New York helps the vibe in New York. Yeah. Yeah. Do you feel that that's accurate, even given obviously the bumps along the way of like the bumpups, like with, with girls, with the bear, Fantastic Four. It's still manageable. I don't find my life is not like hindered or interrupt. You know, I can live my life just fine. You know, no one's, no one's really chasing me around too much.

I'm good. I think also part of it's what you project out into the world, right? It's like some people, if you want that kind of attention, you can live that kind of life. Like if you're living a life, like I know I've seen you on the subway. Sorry, I saw you from afar. I didn't say anything. But like you're out and about. You're just like living like a normal human being.

And I think that engenders a certain level of like I'm a normal human being. If you act like a normal human being. Well, yeah. I mean, you know, I have two immediate thoughts. And one thing is that, you know, people get the PR machine going and they really whip it up and put their picture everywhere. And, you know, and then they complain about having no anonymity. And that seems a little bit. but disingenuous to me.

But the second thing for me is like, yeah, I mean, I got no interest in not being able to have a kind of not take the subway. And I don't know, not being, it doesn't seem like very good for acting to sort of sequester yourself in some kind of tower and insulate yourself. It seems like that's, I don't know, not, not great for the job. Yeah, because I mean, I'm often heard actors talk about value

of just, you know, people watching, of observing others. I mean, that has never. If you're the one being observed, that's going to take away a superpower that you can draw upon, I would think. Yeah, and people are just treating you in a certain way. I mean, I'm just a, you know, a dude in New York, really. So you're in the middle of a lot of things. I saw a dog day afternoon.

Oh, you did? Okay, cool. Thanks. Fantastic. Thanks. An amazing ensemble led by you and your buddy, John Bernthal. Yeah. I don't know if you and Bernthal are now spending more time.

And like it feels like your wife and Bernthal probably equal measure. There's a, like they're equally. Oh my God. It's my, I've spent much more time with John in the past six weeks or so. I mean, my wife, my wife was gone. She was, she saw that we were rehearsing a plane trying to get it on his feet. And she was like, oh, I'll take this opportunity to go and like, you know, do a big photo trip in Europe.

So she, she took off for a while, which was really smart of her. So he's the work wife. Yeah. And obviously we're going to talk about Gary as well. But I want to start with like just dog date because I don't know, what do you like, during a production. You've obviously done a lot of theater. This is your first Broadway production. I don't know if you feel a discernible difference or not. But are you in a kind of different headspace? Are you a different kind of, I don't know, person during production of a

theatrical production or a TV show or a film? Or are you able to kind of compartmentalize and live your normal life? Okay. That's a like that's a lot of variables. First of all, I do notice a big difference between Broadway and off Broadway. Okay. Just in the same. scale, the budget, the level of production, the expectation of the audience, the size of the audience, um, the, the demographic of the audience, the diversity of the audience on Broadway is a lot better than when I've done plays in the past and off Broadway houses, which are oftentimes subscriber based and there's a sort of, it's a very sort of kind of thousand people keep going to everything. New Yorker and PR. I mean, this is obviously I'm generalizing, you know, but there's

So there's a lot of that. But our audiences are incredible in Dog Day Afternoon. People are from all over the city and all the country and all over the world and very young. So that's very exciting. In terms of what my life is like, yeah, when I'm doing a play, everything sort of works backwards from the time of curtain. You know, that is sort of the holiest moment in the day.

And I just sort of, you know, when I eat, when I sleep, what I'm thinking about it is all. For better or for worse about, you know, about the place. So normally I think I probably have a more chaotic or drifty transient sort of days, you know, carefree. Maybe that's a nice way to say. Very good. Or transient sounds fun. Yeah, transient sounds fun.

You're talking about between jobs, though. Obviously, when you're doing like the bear or something, that's a structure to it. That's a structure too, but again, that structure is not as root. Like, you know, some days I go in at 5 a.m. Sometimes I'm going at 5 p.m. And but this is like very routinized. And I like kind of that, you know, I wake up. I exercise.

I have a couple of things I do, you know, do some things around the house, for the time with my wife. Yeah. I mean, you know, like I do like some meal prep, like every day is very similar. And there's something really nice and comforting about that. When I do something like The Bear, when I'm working on location, I just go to work when they tell me to go to work, and then I'm back in my hotel room, and I'm just sort of just waiting to go to work.

It's like a very more monastic kind of life. Even though the routine of the theater feels in some ways monastic, I'm home. So I'm getting to do all my projects. I'm cooking a lot and doing all my weird little, you know. to mention you're feeling like that, hopefully that level of satisfaction, like going on the journey of the character every, almost every single night. Like, there must be no greater high for an actor when you've kind of gone to the end of the journey and hopefully feel, feel like you accomplish something. And yeah, I mean, with this, I don't know, with place for me, it always feels like the horizon's just receding. I don't feel like I nailed it or that was a real home run. There's parts that I like every night, different parts, things that I felt went well. things that I felt did not go well. And it's, you know, it's elusive and ephemeral kind of hard to put your finger on what the thing is.

So you're sort of chasing this kind of misty amorphous thing. And so that's exciting and frustrating. Right. Yeah. This obviously, I mean, everybody knows the name. Hopefully everybody listening or watching this and knows what Dog Day Afternoon is. If you don't know the film, I mean, what are you doing with your life? It's one of the time.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure early on. early on, like myself, like any cineophile, you went through the Lumet, Pacino, Cazal phase and just kind of like dove in. Like, was this a seminal film for you? Yes, I don't have that most, that crystalline moment

where I remember watching it and leaving the theater a different person. I can't remember when I saw it the first time. I mean, definitely that whole period of 70 cinema is like, still, I think to me is the greatest decade of movies that we have. um and that movie and you know and godfather and conversation conversation um they are very much like in like fabric DNA whatever you want to call it of everything after i mean hopefully it's impossible

you know that's just that they changed everything and they and they um the immediacy of those movies and the political nature of them and the anxiety that that is in them and the level of commitment from the actors just raise the bar and and Kazal for those that don't know I mean his his story is unbelievable just because it's sadly the short life he led and the the few films he made I think he've made like five movies and they were like all that's picture nominees that's insane what he did yeah I would think at a certain point hopefully early on you have to kind of like you and Bernthal and and everybody on the team's like they're going to be the comparisons

that's going to happen, but we have to just forge ahead and block that part of my brain out. Like how do you deal with that? That's comparisons are inevitable. I mean, I've said this in other interviews, but it's like, you know, this story, the movie is based on an actual, you know, the actual robbery that happened on August 22nd.

And I think the story of that robbery is so big and iconic and mythic in a way that it can hold many different versions You know, like there could be an opera. There could be, you know, a comic book of the thing. Unfortunately for us, there's one of the best movies ever made and then our play. So it would have been a lot easier. To be the 12th iteration. A couple of other things in between, it would have been a little, you know,

would have taken a lot of the pressure off of our back. And also it would have been a little bit easier, I think, for audiences. I'm kind of finding that a lot of the people that come and see the play have not seen the movie. And then they go off and see the movie. And a lot of people that are going in expecting to see the movie on a play, I just, I'm left kind of scratching my head because like, why would we try to do that? Well, also, I'm going in honestly, I was kind of like, how would they even do that? And I think one of the joys of seeing the play is kind of how you guys stretch it and move it around. It just reinterpret it in your own way, because it does feel alive in a different way than the film does.

It's a whole way. And Stephen Adelae Gier is the playwright. Like, he's got such an all his own. rhythms and distinctive voice and he has such an amazing ear for this cultural specificities of time and place in New York and you know Sheepshead Bay and it's just it's it's richer in a way and then theater is just so different than movie I mean John Cazell was like shot in close-ups and he he didn't say much in that movie and that you know theater is a a medium of words yeah I don't think

anyone seeing maybe that in 1975 they were chanting Attica in the theater but I doubt it they probably weren't screaming at the screen. They probably were screaming at the screen but who knows what they were screaming. Right. Hey y'all, it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder what if? Like, what if it doesn't hold up? That sofa was four days old.

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See what everybody's talking about and join us in the dark. Is there any downside? There are a lot of upsides to knowing you're a co-star for over 20 years. Is there any downside? Like, do you know his tells? He must know your tells within a moment, within a scene, like whether you're going up on a line or something like that? I mean, there's things that I can tell, John.

You know, everyone has things that they fall back on whether they know it or not little things. And I see things in John and I can sort of preempt him sometimes. And if he starts to do this thing where he puts his head to the side, I'll put my head to like first and sort of beat him to it and sort of keep them honest a little bit. But there's no, for the most part, so far, you know, there's been no downside. It's been all upside and be very, very difficult to do this without like a brother like that. Especially because John is so uniquely honest and courageous and strong and physical. Like I don't know how many other actors could pull this off.

Did you guys back in the day ever go up for the same roles? Like were you in those same audition? rooms? I don't think so. I don't think we're ever in the same audition rooms. He didn't live in New York very long. I mean, he was here for a little while, but then he went out to L.A. and I think he got pretty successful fairly quickly out there. Yeah, I don't think we were ever really up for the same part. I mean, he's said many times, and we talked about this a bunch, but like he understudied me many, many years ago. So we were in that room together, the, you know, the signature theater out on West 42nd Street there, but

aside from that, no, I don't think we're really up for the same thing. So had you ever written before together? Have you ever written, period? Because this, as we tape this, just a couple days ago, this gift from the bare heavens came to us. Thanks for calling it that, yeah. This great episode called Gary, which obviously

details the backstory of your two characters a bit. How did this one come around? Like, was this like something you pitched Christor? Does Christor say like, hey, you want to take a crack at this? What's the origin here? You know, John's got very little to do in the show, but he's, but that shadowed that his character, the specter of, you know, the recently departed, Michael Berzado is massive. And certainly massive for Carmi and for my character, Richie, you know, when we find in the beginning of season one, everyone's like grieving pretty hard, especially my guy. He's really like, doesn't know what to do with himself.

And I'd always been interested in finding a moment to show what he's grieving, like what he's lost. You know, what is that friendship? What is that brotherhood? What is the sort of joy that these men had together and their relationship? And so when we were coming up, now I can say that, you know, the last season we were approaching season five. John and I were talking about maybe we wanted a pitch to Chris just some couple scenes to have throughout the season of flashbacks where maybe we could see what these, what life was like in like the golden era sort of, you know, so to speak, of the beef.

And so we scheduled a call with John, Chris, and myself. and before John and I could even say anything, Chris was said, hey, listen, let me pitch you guys something. What do you guys think about writing an episode? Just a standalone for Richie and Mikey, and it would be a kind of a Western where you guys got to like go from one place to another. And Chris and I had both been watching a lot of Westerns.

And he said it kind of like a 310 to Yuma sort of thing where you go from one place to another and then there's this almost existential sort of waiting period that happens. And then there's probably like a girl at the bar, you know, as there always is, you know. And so we're like, we were like, we couldn't believe what a gift it was that Chris offered up for us. So we got, we got off the phone and we quickly called each other. And I was like, man, I can't believe in this. John's like, yeah, oh, my God.

I got like tears in my eyes. What a beautiful person, Chris is to give us this opportunity. And we, um, so we immediately had a bunch of things. of ideas and I think not long after that we were doing a workshop of dog day afternoon in Times Square just just with the writer and the director and of some other actors and things and every day we did for two or three days and every day after rehearsal we would walk back to John's Hotel and then we get to his hotel and we would just write over you know for for a couple of hours and really quick

ideas and overall and then sort of sharper and sharper and sharper until We got a fairly general script. And then over the next few months, that script got really fleshed out. And it's pretty specific. I mean, there's a little bit of improv in the show, but it's all pretty scripted. Like when they go into the, when they're buying the,

what's the, the, the, um, the cony, uh, is that, is the, the cony? Yeah, she's behind the counter. Yeah. Like a, like a actor. She works there. Yeah, yeah. That felt.

She works. You know, the bear likes to do that thing where, you know, there's always like, there's a lot of chefs. actual chefs that are in it. And they always end up being like these really like fancy chefs. Yeah. You know, fine dining kind of like stars. And I thought it was great that we actually were talking to like somebody was just like

at a hot dog, you know, like at a hot dog stand, which is essentially what these guys really do. You know, like she was like a, you know, a sister just like down the road. That's amazing. It's all, I mean, to hear, I mean, it's the golden era, but it's also like the stuff that you guys say to each other in this episode. I mean, it's like. you're obviously like you're playing roles and you're playing characters but you're still

you're looking into the eyes of your friend saying some despicable things to you i mean what's that like to hear like john go at you in the form of that character towards the end of this episode um it's it's heartbreaking to watch yeah i mean he was very scary in that scene and very sad and volatile and it's you're just sort of watching a man receipt you know who was in such a beautiful place a few minutes ago i mean you know um but But, you know, I'm sure everyone's seen that thing where you see someone's eyes change and you don't know where they're going, but it's not somewhere where you really want to follow them to.

So, yeah, those are those, that scene in particular were scary. I said the golden age, but that's what we were really initially thinking because I think so much of the time, I'm so interested in the character's like joy and what their best scenario is and what their dreams are. And we don't get to see that all that much. And with Rich, we didn't really get to see it that much. And I wanted, I wanted to see the golden era, or so to speak. But this was not really that.

But they do have moments in that. Yeah. But this is very much. I mean, I think timeline was that episode ends up being, it's after the Fish's episode and before he takes his life. So it's, and it's maybe, if not the last time, the two of them spoke, it's sort of the last time they really spent some time together. It's also going to, I mean, obviously, I haven't had time to rewatch episodes since,

but, like, I think it's going to enrich going back now. I mean, like, to think about the things that he says to Richie about, like, you know, you're going to be a horrible father. And Richie's not. Richie's, like, such a great dad to see how he's, he didn't live up to what his friend said in his worst moment is kind of a beautiful thing. Yeah. And I think, yeah, I mean, I think in that moment, you know, he, and you wonder how much of his dedication to his daughter.

I mean, I think that's who he is as someone who really didn't have many parental figures. I mean, I don't want to get into, like, these are things that I know that I think about the guy myself, but that I don't really like to share him. But how, you know, when you want to, opposition is a good motivator, you know, is it, okay, you said, I'm not. not gonna do it watch this like fuck you dude I'm I'm I'm I'm here I ain't going anywhere for this kid yeah and I'm gonna give her what you know no one ever gave me I do think he's a wonderful dad I'm so happy that that's how the character is portrayed it's also said I mean you you allude to this like the gift when like Chris comes to you guys and says like you know what I'd like you guys to take a crack at this and it's like right this like that's as you well know

not the norm. This is like, is it fair to set like the bear from the start has been one of the more collaborative environments you've ever been a part of? Without a doubt. And it's not just with the actors, but I think with the whole crew, the bear was always a set where everyone was part of the discussion of the story and what we were trying to, you know, the look or the lighting, you know, depending on what people. department was it was always deeply deeply collaborative and I've found a few different

kinds of directors that I've worked with you know and some are like can can operate on a macro on a micro level and want to you know control everything and adjust different pant length and just just just really have their fingers in every decision aesthetic story character everything and that's really impressive to be able to hold that amount of like real estate and sort of artistic vision and then I've also worked with directors that were just like hire the people that they want to hire yeah and then let everyone do their job and chris is definitely more i think in in that camp which is a which is a beautiful way to operate i think it's so trusting and inspiring um yeah it's interesting because i would

imagine both can be very very rewarding like if you're in the hands of i know it was a bit part but like west anderson or someone like that's like yeah i'm going to trust and i want to be kind of like a tool in the toolbox and i will trust them to move me around yeah but on the flip side like to feel ownership over your character and to feel like you're not even an owner, just a collaborator, like a true collaborator on a set. That's kind of what it's all about as an artist, hopefully. I think so. I mean, I like the different experiences.

I like all the different ones. You know, I made a movie with Ira Sax earlier this year, and Ira's like very, his vision is very, very specific. And I would say, come to him with some ideas about lines or outfit or things, and he'd be like, Okay, I disagree with you. You know, but he would hear me and listen to me and then just say I was wrong. Or, and a couple times I would, you know, he was okay with it.

But I don't know, I love all that stuff. And if it's, if it's a, if it's a director whose movies I love, and I'm willing to say, okay, me, I'll, you know, I'll buy the, buy the ticket and take your ride. How are you on a line reading? Um, I'm kind of okay with a line reading. I think when I was younger and angrier, I'd like the principal. love it would would frustrate me. Now sometimes it's just like let's just I bet so much yeah like can you just tell me what the you know, just want it louder that's fine.

You know people there's a story I heard about like Gene Hackman I guess who would just say you would just have I don't know whether it'd be like Friedkin or whatever he just wanted them to go like this or this not like thumbs up good job. Yeah. But just like a little like bring it out. Yeah. Bring it down or just keep staying where you are and that's kind of general not specific. And I like that.

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Patrick Pickle Bottom Everyday Mysteries is perfect for kids and is just as entertaining for grownups who love a good mystery. The whole family can listen now wherever you get your podcasts. So diving back because we have the luxury of time a little bit, growing up, are you a jock, are you a nerd, are you somewhere in between, are you a little bit of everything? What's young heaven like? I am like deeply into reading fantasy books.

Little Dungeons and Dragons playing in the woods. I grew up outside of Amherst, Massachusetts, lots of woods, spending time out there. Pretty social, a lot of music. Yeah. I played piano for a very long time, starting when I was young. Music was a big part of my house. Yeah.

My dad ran a music school, my grandmother was a piano instructor at Juilliard. And so this was just sort of a non-negotiable part of my upbringing. That I quickly really loved and became part of my identity. I loved classical music. And then at a certain point in high school, I started playing jazz, and then it became more of a social thing. And that was a really inspiring moment. And I think that was maybe the beginning of my love of collaborative,

collaboration. And also improvisation and spontaneity. and spontaneity and this idea of present and the moment, which is so essential to acting and certainly in the theater. There's improv involved in D&D. You got a, you gotta kind of just. You gotta roll with it, yeah. Literally and figuratively.

Yeah, exactly. There it is. Well done. Were you like a Tolkien guy? He's talk about fantasy. Like what were you reading? I was reading like Robert Jordan. Pierce, Anthony, the Zanth series, like Terry,

what's his name? Like Douglas Adams, Frank Herbert, you know, like I was never hard fantasy, hard science fiction. Okay. Terry Pratchett. Terry Pratchett. Yeah, yes, yes, yes. I love.

Dude is pretty hard sci-fi. No, is that not considered? Yeah, to be honest, I didn't really get into Dune. I tried when I was a kid and I couldn't get into it. It's a tough one. It's a, and then I tried many times with Dune. And then maybe the fifth time I started reading it, I was like, wow. And I read like the six of them, like back to back. Oh, wow.

Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot there. Oh, my God. Do you like the movies? I do like the movies. I do they're great. I mean, Denise, obviously.

Oh, my God. What a world builder. Yeah. Those kinds of movies, you know, I would kind of rather watch than be a part of. because, you know, you can't, you can't unsee, you know, all the, you know, and I mean. And I'm really good about going in and I love escapist films and I love to just have the world sort of melt away. And so. But you've, you've been in Star Wars.

You've been in Marvel. Like, are those movies ruined for you now? I mean, you know how, you know the thing is not an actual guy in a suit. Yeah, yeah. I guess. Um, um, that's what you say. Um, When I did, when I worked on Andor, I will say, so my first scene was, you know,

and I got to London, I had to quarantine for two weeks. I didn't leave my hotel. It was like deep covered in. The first scene we shot was about this death scene where Diego Luna just, I sort of bring up this idea, like, you know, we can. There's, I know about a moon. Like a couple thousand parsecs from here. And he looks like something and just shoots me with a blast.

and I die. So like what a horrible first day. I never met Diego. He was he was lovely. Nice to meet you. We started shooting where somebody in some cornfield outside of London. Yeah. And the director came up and said, okay, so there's a moon there. And then there's another moon over there. And I'm like looking at my lines. I was like, oh, and then I got to say parsecs. And I was like, whoa, that was like, that was a lot because Star Wars was really important. You know, I was born in 77, you know, so and I had the little Star Wars action figures like, like that was that was my I mean I love that stuff so that was overwhelming and my my my my pulse got going and I had to like you know I had to like dry my palms a little bit and then and then

get into and try to act because it was it did feel like so um you're entering your childhood yeah fantasies yeah it was it was it was a lot it was a bit um hallucinatory um and on the marvel front um was that is that I mean there was so much talk about the casting a lot of names were being bandied about for all four of you Like, were they like screen testing you guys? Or was that just an offer at the end of the day? Like, I got an offer. I think I got an offer before anybody else.

I didn't have any screen testing. I've had to jump through a lot of hoops in my life. And this was one that I did not have to, which for, I mean. That's a pretty great gift. Yeah, it was a great. I was really shocked when it was just like, I was just walking down Fifth Avenue one day and there, my agents called and they're like, yeah, they asked you to do it.

I was like, what? Huh? Um, was there any. Is there any hesitancy? I mean, there are obviously a lot of pros and pretty, but they're always cons. And like, obviously joining a multi-film arc and that's going to take you away from other opportunities, et cetera. There could be the fame aspect.

Like, was there any kind of hesitancy for you to jump into it? Um, well, I always want, you know, you want to think about the whole, you want to be very sober about, about, you know, sure. And you know, and I'm not the kind of person who's just been dying to be. a superhero or anything like that. So I really waited. And for me, a huge attraction to it was that I was going to be playing a character

that was motion capture or performance capture. And that was going to be very much me. But I mean, to so many fans, they got, you know, they don't, unless they're like real Marvel heads, they don't connect me with the orange guy. So I found a lot of freedom in that. Yeah. Freedom to play.

And, um, And like, yeah, it could be, I felt like it could be experimental almost in a way. Yeah. Sort of a, I don't know, really push, like my physicality as an actor. I don't know. It's just, it just, to me it seemed like, speaking for me, the, personally, the best way for me to be a part of this universe.

Well, we literally just had Andy Circus in here. I saw that. Yeah. So, I mean, like, and those that like buy into it and really enjoy it, like they embrace it. I mean, often it is theater actors, people that have a lot of experience. that love it, I feel like, because it is, it's almost back to like black box theater.

It's like really using your imagination and using your physicality and I mean, how freeing as an actor. You know, you want to think as an actor you can be anything. With performance capture, you can literally be anything. Yep, I think that for all the people, like for Pedro, Joe Vanessa, my, like, I think we're making these movies

is all like a return to childhood and playing make believe. I think you gotta really just jump in, you know, head first into this beautiful, beautiful land of make believe. Yeah, and I don't know how else to do it. And then it is like, you know, you gotta pretend that there's Galactus.

And he's really big, you know. And so you just kind of have this collective pact of let's play. Andy Circus was early on after I decided to do the part, I got in touch with him and he was so generous, Both he and Mark Ruffalo, they were really, I mean, it was like I was entering to this like small club of capture performers. And they both were very strong about saying, you know, this is not really different than the other stuff. And you're really just trying as much to be there with your people as possible. And I was there every day.

And I was, there's versions of making a movie like that where you can, you just go into the little black box and do all your capture stuff. And I know sometimes people do it like that. And I was so grateful to be there and have that experience. And also it was like really cool because I'm in my like my suit. But for Reed and Sue and Johnny, you know, when they look at the thing, they see Ben Grimm. And so I think it was. They knew the guy. Yeah.

And so when they're looking at me, they're seeing, they're seeing Eben. And I think that that was helpful for everybody. I felt badly for you guys, the press tours for those things are, are insane. Yeah, they're weird. They're insane. I actually spoke to you, one of the first times I spoke to you was at Comic-Con, when they dragged you guys out, you had just started filming, like, or like we're in rehearsal. In San Diego?

Yeah. Oh, we hadn't even shot yet. We haven't even filmed a thing. We were announcing it was, it was a very strange experience. I say this with love. You guys looked like the Walking Dead on that press line. You were like, where am I? Yeah.

How are we doing? No, no, no. We literally flew in. landed that morning did the thing and then flew back to London and it was a deeply confusing. I mean, the way that we were all trying to massage it and make it feel better was like, oh, this is a bonding. You know, like we're going up into the sky together and man, oh man was that. That was hard. And that's also just feels so, um, like you're really tempting fate.

To go to like a crowd of 100,000 people and like high five people. And it's like, we haven't even done the thing. Yeah, it's like. There is also, I don't know how plugged into like social media, but there's like this like now infamous video of you, I think all four of you. And it's like you especially in Joe during the junket where like Joe is like, I think just like checked it. Like he's just like, I think half asleep because you guys probably done 300 interviews that. During the, after we made the movie. Yeah.

Oh yeah. Do you know that into that video that's gone around? There's a few. I think there's a few really, there's one where Joe makes me laugh like crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

where they said I was in Australia and they were like, okay, there's a room of influencers. And I like walked in. It was like the, I felt like I walked into the wizard of Oz me and people were like dancing around. I was like, wow. It's just, it's very, it's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot.

How is Doomsday? Was it a much different kind of experience for you? Doomstay was different in that it's a bigger movie with more moving parts and I think it was more compartmentalized. Yeah. Whereas like fantastic four first steps like we were there like every every day every day having a sense of the thing And these these movies are so interstellar and so Galactic and conceptual so it's very hard sometimes to understand

What's going on in the story and in doomsday was a little bit Harder for me to hold all the the parts and I mean I knew where I was. I knew which your planets or which universe I was in but how it was connected to other universes, I would have to go back to, like, Joe, can you just, I know you've talked me through, can you just tell me one more time? Like, it's not, I mean, I talked to all your co-stars and all these films, and it's not unusual,

you just kind of have to trust, I mean, those guys somehow know how to cobble it all together. Like, you probably, I would guess, never even read the full, did you read like a full script at any point or? Yeah. Oh, you did. Yeah, I did read a full script, but those scripts changed quite a bit.

Right, right, right, yeah. Yeah. No, you know, I probably not, it probably didn't have a full, like third act right I don't think it had an end like I don't think anyone gets to see that stuff and I don't I'm not trying to get spoilers or anything but I was curious did you get to see downy do his do his thing because yeah oh yeah yeah pretty cool yeah great yeah and what a just what like a wonderful man like what a great set leader he was like he just it was like you know he's

been doing this for a long time he was so generous and really like checking in making sure everyone It was good, like, it's just like, yeah, really, really good, good kind of coach energy there. They're variable roaming. These movies are very, any of you look around, I would look around the room and it'd be like, there's Ian McAllen, and there's like, then there's like, Channing Tatum, and then this is, it's just, it's just, it's a lot. Yeah. So we now know officially segueing back to Gary and the Bear, the Bear, the Bear, we kind of knew this, but it's the final season coming very soon. How are you at saying goodbye to long-term jobs? This is obviously one that has meant a very significant amount to you in terms of career and

personal life and who you are as an actor in person. Was it tough to say goodbye? Do you feel like you've said goodbye yet? Well, I ended my last day on the bear, they were kind enough to shoot me out early so that I could do this play. So I missed the first two weeks of rehearsal for Dog Day Afternoon because I was I was working on the bear. And so I was filled with anxiety about my new job.

But then I was starting to learn lines. And the first point I said, you know what? I can't do this. I just got to be here for the bear. And the last scene I saw it on the bear was very cathartic in a way. I feel like endings are really hard. I've gotten better at them because I've had to do it a lot and fallen in love with the cast and made little families.

This family is unique. I mean, I really, really, these people are very important to me. And we all went on this wild journey together. Well, transformed all of your lives. Yeah. Yeah. And we all care so deeply about the story and the people that were playing. And this.

But yeah, you know, I got wrapped out and clapped out. And I got to hug everybody and cry my tears and thank everyone. And so I felt like what's the worst is like you. you go and you think you're coming back and you don't get back, you know, and you're just sort of filled with regret. And then I, and then I had, and then the very next day I was in rehearsal. So, right. Um, which is nice to not sort of go home and get the blues. But I think that I've done what I've wanted to do in the bear more, you know, more than I would have could have ever imagined. And I'm really excited about the fifth season. I think it's a very, um,

it takes from all the other seasons in the best way. And again, endings are really hard. And I think I'm very optimistic about how this show ends. I think it ends in a good way, in a real way. I know people always want to bring up certain episodes. And Forks always comes up, which ironically you always talk about, because you do love the collaborative nature of the show. And that wasn't necessarily an episode where you got to like mix up with the gang.

Were you, I mean, obviously that script bust of the book. read as a great opportunity and a great script. Like, were you shocked by like the things that resonated? Like, who knew that the power of like a 40-something guy singing Taylor Swift alone in a car was so potent? I guess Christopher, Chris Storer, who I guess in Joanna Callan, who, um, I sure didn't. I mean, I've seen that episode once. It's way too much of me for me to really like, you know, I, and I saw it at, you know, at, um, I saw it in the editing. office kind of like watched it like this and you know the editor everyone was really excited about it

and i thought they're all crazy um but i know definitely i mean i've talked about that episode with yeah probably thousands of people and it's i don't know what i feel so i mean i said this many sounds like you know i'm just like the forward facing part i didn't write it i didn't direct you you know what you know what i mean i lived it no i mean i'm and i'm proud of my work in it and again it's like i said when earlier like talking about joy you know rarely do we get to see joy especially in like middle age men yeah too you know it's not something that I think culture puts a lot of like value in and also it's not great for storytelling so much because you know it's like you know it's kind of anti-dramatic in a way you know but I think it's really important to see people have

victories and to celebrate and to change and to experience things and to have light and to have their heart swelling to experience optimism and feel the sun on their face and I think it's inspiring and I can tell you without a doubt like it is inspired like thousands of people around the world that I've gotten to and I didn't think that that was possible so it definitely like changed me yeah I was too sin I was way too cynical to anticipate anything like that but um I mean I'm so yeah Yeah, humbled and grateful that I got to be a part of that thing. It's a really eye-opening. Oh, it's an all-timer.

It's amazing. I mean, I'm not dying to watch it again or anything. We're gonna watch it right now. Okay. Right, we can, we can, we can sell off. Lock the doors to this room. I had Jeremy on the podcast. Oh, okay, cool.

He's amazing, obviously, of course. And it's funny, he talked about something that, like, when I was researching you, that you've kind of spoken about too, like how early in his career, he thought like he had to kind of suffer for his art a bit. And he's kind of come around to realize like it's kind of, it's not a unique thing. I think many young actors feel like you kind of have to like, you feel it and just like be miserable. Is it safe to say like that you kind of went through that similar kind of phase and you're in a different place now where it's okay to be chill and not, not injure yourself.

Yeah. I mean, acting is a weird job and you're sort of like, uh, like, like, I think sometimes people can feel conflicted about it being a real job and maybe you feel like you have to suffer to make it worthy in a way. You got to punch your, you know, card and really like hanging in there. I definitely, you know, I was trying to hold myself up to like Marlon Brando and James Dean. You know, you know, there's all there's so much romanticism around these kinds of experiences. And my first movie that I did was with Gene Wilder. and I remember him telling me, and we were talking about different ways of acting

and people staying in character. And he said, you know, it's incredible for someone to go and stay in character for the whole day and be and live that out and really be that person and transform into that person and live as that person through the center of everything. He said, what's more incredible is to do that and then to go home to your family

and be like a dad and a husband or a friend. And that really stayed with me. although I was not I mean I was too I wasn't a dad or husband at that point but I mean I I think that's the I think that's I think that's I think that's I think that I you know and doing this play now I mean I've done I don't know how many I think I've done 60 or so of them I got another hundred or performances to do life is what feeds the performance and if you're just living in the thing you know it's it's really not getting much back you don't have much to draw from if you're just sort of in this character. I mean, or staying in the play.

For me, I'm like, I want to be out. I want to experience things. I want to read the news. I want to see what people are, I want to be involved in the world and outs in my community and, yeah, and what's happening. And I think that's the only way for an artist to be. I also think it's really funny this quote, I don't know who said I think it was maybe Robert Pattinson, but he said, how come whenever anyone's always like staying in character

for like months at a time, why is that character always a fucking asshole? Like, can't be a nice guy? Yeah, can it be like Willie Wonka? Like, you know what? Well, you'd be committed. I mean, if you walked into a coffee shop and said, chocolate for everybody.

But I thought that was a very illustrative kind of, you know, he was, it's, he put a good point on it. Of suffering and, you know, and I mean, I got a lot of thoughts about it. I also think that like, to perform whether or be, in a musical arena or in a sports or, you know, I'm not the only, relaxation is very, very important. Yes.

And if you're trying to like squeeze some kind of thing, some experience that you're trying to like really, like you're not open and it's, and it's, it's, I've tried to do it many times. That is a hard hill to climb. So it's funny, you mentioned one of your earliest co-stars, probably the first star you worked with Great Gene Wilder. Yeah.

When you look at Jeremy Allen White, Do you see what the internet sees? I mean, I see a lot. I mean, there's a lot of kindness in both those men. Those guys have some beautiful hearts. And Jeremy does have a serious set of eyes on him, for sure. Lost in those. Yeah.

That's the real trick. Yeah, yeah. He's such a, if I can just take one second, just extol like, he is such an amazing scene partner. And I've told him this before, but it was, it is like, you go into work with him. And it's just, there's no pretension. It's just, he's right in there. And then it's just, you just lifts you up and you just kind of get sucked into the airstream of, of his performance.

He's just like, really takes care of you as an actor. And I don't know if he's doing it on purpose, but it's sure, but it's sure appreciated, you know. No, he's all, he's awesome. He, his hot pizza take he gave me was, um, he's not, he's not into the Chicago deep dish, which, uh, is controversial given where you guys are, you know what, Man, there's a lot of Chicagoans that don't like the deep dish. Where are you at? No, that ain't for me.

I like, in Chicago, I like a tavern style where it's like really thin and they do it so you get little squares. Right. Like they chop it up like it's a kids party and I like that. It's a little day and it's a little daintier. Okay. But no, I'm not much of a deep dish guy. Same too much. The bread ratio is all off for me.

You want the. Yeah. I mean, you know, I had, I mean, I would, my birthday's in March and so I would often have my birthday in Chicago when we were shooting. And there was one particularly sad, rainy, snowy Chicago Day where I found myself in the basement of a deep dish place, drinking beer by myself and eating deep dish for one. The glamorous life of a movie star, TV star. Before I let you go, I realize we haven't even mentioned girls. I just want to mention it because, I mean, the staying past. of that one obviously is remarkable as well.

Lena just had her memoir out. Really? Have you read it? I haven't read it. I mean, I've seen her do some amazing interviews about it, but it seems, she's obviously such a talent. I mean, you, one of the talents, like one of the challenges for an actor is jumping into something midstream.

You jumped into that show third season, as I recall, right? I think so. I think so, yeah. Was it, is that a particular challenge? I mean, you had been doing it for a while by then, like is there security in knowing, oh, they know what they're doing here? Or is there a challenge in like, how am I going to fit into this thing that's already working? Well, I was just involved in like, I had met Lena and Jenny and we were pals. And we would have a lot of fun together and laugh together and cook together.

And they kind of wrote this part for me. But it was never written as like, okay, you're going to be here for the rest of you're now a new member of the cast. It was a, it was, he was supposed to be in like a couple of episodes. And then we just started having so much fun that they just, it just, just kept extending and extending and extending. Got it. And that was a collaborative, for me anyways, that was very much a collaborative set the same way

that the bear was. I felt very much like the three of us created that character together. And they gave me a lot of trust and we wrote together to some extent and it was, yeah, that was just a lot of fun. Did that character affect how people received you in the world, particularly women? Like, did they, I mean, people can separate a hope character from human being, but. I don't know.

I find like when I'm in something that's on TV right now, right? Then like, then it's like, oh, then there's like, Desi, you know, or, you know, but then it's like something else is on TV and it's like, you know. Short term memory. All right. We're going to end with this. Okay, okay. Profoundly random questions. we end, they have every happy, sad, confused.

Oh, yes. Like this. Are you a dog or cat person? I'm a cat dad, yeah. I heard your cat. You're softening me up for the hard hitters, I can tell. No, no, that's, I mean, that one almost got Jesse Buckley canceled when she went off against cats. Oh, really?

So that is deceptively a challenging one. I also don't subscribe to these kind of binaries. Like, I like dogs. I love dogs and cats, you know, but, but right now. Factually. I, I love cats here. What do you collect? Um, bicycles, guitars.

Okay. Old, like, Christian Dior, buttoned down shirts from the 80s and 90s. Okay. Yeah. All right. Do you have a favorite video game of all time? What's it called? Load Runner.

Oh, my God. I haven't thought of. This is like going back to like Atari, Apple, 2E. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I liked California games. Yeah.

You know, but I didn't really have, I, uh, my parents relented and I got like the original Game Boy and I liked Castlevania. Yep. Yeah. We're about the same age. So we got the same reference points. Yeah. Yeah.

Unfortunately we went. My parents got me the Sega master system, which sent me down the wrong path. Okay. I was never a Nintendo person. So what was, so what were you? So it was like, Metroid. It was like, Tommy was sort of baseball was like my game. Okay.

It was Sonic, you know, but it was a lonely path. It was a lonely path. Yeah. Here I am now. Yeah. The Dakota Johnson Memorial question, she asked me this. I ask everybody. Oh, okay.

Would you rather have a mouthful of bees or one be in your butt? Oh. Um, I'll take the bee in the fazool. I don't know. Sounds like it could be, you know. Might get something out of it. Change your mind. Yeah.

Change your life. Yeah. That is generally the sentiment. Is that the sentiment? 90% so. Who goes for the beef mouthful of bees? I can't recall. No one I would want to mention out loud because they're psychopaths.

Who wants that? That's like one that is. That's a good question. It's like two kinds of people kind of question. Yeah. Yeah, short term, whatever versus, I mean, that's gonna fuck you. That gives me Candyman flashbacks. Yeah, yeah, totally.

Yeah. What's the wallpaper on your phone? My kids, I would hope so. Just checking, just making sure. It's my kids on the lock screen. And then as soon as I open it up, it's Yelena, my wife, my partner. You're a good person. Last actor you were mistaken for?

Somebody, I was picking my daughter up from soccer, practice and she was with her friends this guy came out he's like oh i'm such a big fan man he's like i love your show uh i watch it all the time i love the one where you were at uh i don't know he used to name some pizza place and i was like i don't think you think and he thought i was this guy who's like a pizza influencer oh who i don't know you know i don't know i can't remember the guy's name dave portnoy yeah yeah dave portnoy you don't want to be confused it's important. Well, I'm being honest, man. I'm giving you the straight dope. I don't, I don't, you know. Yeah, I mean, I guess I see it, but yeah, no. Okay. All right.

Moving on. That's the worst note of director has ever given you. If I get a sense that a director's coming in with some bad stuff and it's a director that I don't really respect. I just pretend that I pretend to just take the hearing aids out and I just say, uh-huh. Oh, yeah, totally, totally. And then I just keep doing what I want to do. Yeah, and I've heard that one too. Yeah, totally. And finally, in the spirit of happy, say I confused, who's an actor who always makes you happy. You see them on screen, better mood. Patricia Arquette.

Great. Yeah. All the way back, what, true romance to, you know, the whole thing. I mean, I wasn't a big medium fan, but, but man, oh man, she can do no wrong. My Lord, she's the best we have. Movie that makes you sad. Stand by me.

Yeah. Yeah. And a food that makes you confused. You don't get it. I struggle with fine dining. You can say that now that the bear's over. Now you're safe. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. We'll see. Everything was good. It did okay and then he just... What a way to get canceled for not liking fine dine at. No, I just can't sit at a restaurant that long.

Really? It's just the pay, like you just want to... Yeah, just like to... You know. Got places to be. No, no, no, I'm not in a rush. I just like to have fun. Right. Okay, fair enough.

No fine dining for Evan. Thank you, man, for making the time for this. I appreciate you. Congratulations, everybody should check out. So it sounds like 100 plus performances still to go on dog day? Something like that. All right, good luck. I've been told that I shouldn't think about the amount of shows.

I should just think about the amount of weeks. Okay, yeah, that's like eight weeks. We got like 10 weeks or something like that's a sense. She got this. I can do it on one foot. Try that out, see what happens. Yeah, good luck with that. Yeah.

Everybody should check that out if they can. Gary, of course, is out now and the final season of the bear, and we got Avengers movies. You're a busy man. Oh, I know what food is confusing to me. The tuna melt. Oh, I'm not into that. No.

People love it, man. And I respect, you know, everyone, it's a matter of taste, but it's a real head scratcher for me. Is it, what about just like the tuna fish on its own, like, or? I'm not going to get into the weeds with you, but it just seems like a strange thing to do to put some tuna on. And then just melt a bunch of cheese on it. Yeah.

Yeah. Thank you for saving the best for last. Yeah. Oh, God. By the hair of my chinny chin, chint chun. We're going to go watch Forks and eat tuna melts together now. Is that okay? Yeah.

Right now. We lock the doors. Thanks, man. I appreciate you. Yeah, thanks. Thanks so much. And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely will. to do this by Josh. Goodbye, Kyle. Did the sound of those words called you like Pavlov's dog? Then you might enjoy our podcast Turtle Time. Every week you can join me,

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