Happy Sad Confused - Elisabeth Moss

Episode Date: April 20, 2022

It's not every day we welcome an actor of Elisabeth Moss' caliber to the podcast let alone one who's a fan of the show themselves! It's true mutual admiration between Elisabeth and Josh on this episode as star of "The Handmaid's Tale" talks about her new series, "Shining Girls", what she learned on "The West Wing" and "Mad Men" and insight on not one but two comfort movies! You can purchase tickets to a LIVE Happy Sad Confused event now! 4/21 at 8pm -- THE NORTHMAN screening followed by a conversation with Alexander Skarsgard. Purchase tickets here. Don't forget to check out the Happy Sad Confused patreon here! We've got exclusive episodes of GAME NIGHT, video versions of the podcast, and more! For all of your media headlines remember to subscribe to The Wakeup newsletter here! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

D.C. high volume, Batman. The Dark Nights definitive DC comic stories adapted directly for audio for the very first time. Fear, I have to make them afraid. He's got a motorcycle. Get after him or have you shot. What do you mean blow up the building? From this moment on,

none of you are safe. New episodes every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, it's official. We are very much in the final sprint to election day. And face it, between debates, polling releases, even court appearances, it can feel exhausting, even impossible to keep up with. I'm Brad Milkey. I'm the host of Start Here, the Daily Podcast from ABC News.

And every morning, my team and I get you caught up on the day's news in a quick, straightforward way that's easy to understand, with just enough context so you can listen, get it, and go on with your day. So, kickstart your morning. Start Smart with Start Here and ABC News because staying informed shouldn't feel overwhelming. Today on Happy, Sad Confused, Elizabeth Moss, from the West Wing and Mad Men to Handmaid's Tale and Shining Girls. Hey, guys, I'm Josh Harrow.

It's welcome to another edition of Happy Sad. confused. We've got another new guest to the pod this week, someone we've wanted to have on for so long. You know her. You love her. It's Elizabeth Moss. One of the best actors working today. I'm a little on my back foot here in the introduction, guys, and I'm going to tell you why. Because chances are Elizabeth Moss is listening to me do this introduction. Now, that's not always the case. I don't know. Maybe some guests listen to the podcast before they're on the show. they play it cool. Sometimes they tell me about it. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes maybe they'll listen afterwards. Often they probably won't. They do a lot of podcasts. Well, I heard through the grapevine

a while back that Elizabeth Moss was a fan of happy, said, confused. It blew my mind, as you would expect it to. I mean, I take nothing for granted. I know we've got a core devoted audience out there, but Elizabeth Moss is a busy young woman with a lot on her plate. And the fact that I'd heard that she was a fan of the show meant a lot to me. And short enough, when we finally connected recently a couple weeks back for this conversation, and you'll hear it, it was very much a mutual admiration society. Now, I'd interviewed her a couple times at some film festivals and silly award shows, but obviously nothing like this. So it was a long time coming, and I hope it lived up to her expectations because, Because, you know, when you know someone is excited to do something, you know, I assume, generally

speaking, that most people coming on the show are contractually obligated. I'm being semi-facious. But, you know, it's work. It's work. So the fact that Lizzie Moss, as she goes by, was excited to be on the show and was not shy about professing her excitement was cool and a little bit intimidating in a way. But I think we all came out of this okay. I think we're all friends, everyone here, and it was a great conversation with someone who clearly has good taste beyond podcasts.

She knows and loves movies and TV, as evidenced by her phenomenal body of work, and we cover a lot of it in this conversation. I mean, Elizabeth Moss has been acting since a very young age, and perhaps early on you first saw her in stuff like the West Wing, and then, of course, Mad Men changed her whole career, and really, brought new attention and new opportunities to her. And then in the last, you know, five, ten years, like just to see her really to make the most of it and work in a lot of cool independent films to help steer the ship now of Handmaid's Tale, not only be the lead actor, but also an executive producer and direct on that show. And now also directing and executive producing on a new, very cool show for Apple TV Plus called Shining Girls. This is a series based on a book that is, you know, it's an intense piece of work.

And it's a cool, it's kind of a genre-bending piece of work. Sci-fi elements to it that kind of sneak up on you. Lizzie plays a woman who has suffered some trauma and is certainly dealing with that. And meanwhile, we have what, you know, I don't think it's, I don't think it ruins anything to say it because I think she even mentions it. There is a time travel element to this involving the antagonist in the story. So it's a bit of a mystery, it's a bit, but it's more than genre. It's really a great character study, as a lot of her work is, and it is well worth your time. It debuts on Apple TV Plus on, if I have this right, yeah, April 29th.

So coming soon at you, Shining Girls, check it out. But this conversation is great. Beyond the career stuff, we also get into comfort movie. movies, which I laugh at because she wanted to talk about one comfort movie that had already been taken by a previous guest. Whether you guys know it or not, I always ask the new guest not to pick a previous comfort movie pick, just to mix it up a bit and make it fresh. At some point, I'll probably relax that a bit, but she took it seriously and showed something else. So you'll hear all of that. Other stuff to mention. Well, if you're hearing this on, like,

Tuesday or Wednesday this week, or even Thursday, and you're in New York City. There is still time to get tickets for April 21st, Thursday evening, 8 p.m. in New York City. I'm doing a live edition of Happy Say I Confused at the 92nd Street Y with Alexander Scars Guard for his new film, The Northman. You've heard me talk about it in past weeks. I've since now seen it a second time. This is a great movie. This is just a great, great movie from Robert Eggers, director of the witch and The Lighthouse and is a big Viking revenge story features a great central performance from Alexander, but also Nicole Kidman's in it, Ethan Hawke, William Defoe, and you tell her joy. And just like from a filmmaking perspective, Eggers, who has a production design background,

really knows what he's doing. And I'm so impressed with, I mean, this movie is a big leap in terms of budget for him. And it's all on the screen. and, yeah, well worth your time. So all of which is to say, if you're in New York City, come on out. It's going to be a fun time. Live, an hour-long conversation between me and Alexander, which is following a screening of the Northman.

As always, I'll put all the information in the show notes. Pick up your tickets now, and I hope to see some of you guys out there. I think that's all the housekeeping for this week. Let's get right to the conversation. This is for you guys, but really, Lizzie, Moss, if you're listening to this, this is for you. This is about making your dreams come true. I hope this was satisfying for you. Listeners out there, here is the momentous podcast, finally at hand. Josh Harowitz and Elizabeth Moss.

Guys, I'm very nervous. Lizzie Moss, can I call you Lizzie? Everybody calls you Lizzie. I don't know you that well, but you are Elizabeth Moss. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so, so much. Yes, you can definitely call me lizzie and i'm beyond excited to be here and you have to know that this is my absolute favorite podcast that i to the point of like a weird a weird have uh have been listening obsessively for quite a while and she's getting choked up guys she's getting emotional about yes i'm getting emotional um and i i i i just i truly i love this show and i'm so excited to do it and i i really feel like what you're doing is so fantastic and it's such an incredible and hard to achieve combination of something fun and

entertaining but also intelligent and educational and you're speaking to these incredible filmmakers and actors and it just i truly have like i've been obsessively listening so i'll stop there no no no no no no it's good Look, if you've listened to me as much as you say, you will know that you'll probably guess that I am not good at receiving compliments, but that is truly makes me somewhat emotional. It makes me realize I have a human heart. And I don't even know what to say except right back at you. I don't know.

That will come out in the course of the next 45 minutes of how much of a fan I am of yours. But look, as you can tell, I love this shit. I love talking about movies and TV. with great artists. So this is, uh, this is the fun stuff, you know, um, you can really, you can really tell. You know, you can really tell. You know what you're talking about, but you also keep it fun. And it's, uh, it's just, it's a joy to listen to you. So, oh my God. I know we've been trying to do this for a while. I'm excited that we've finally got to. Well, your, your, your latest, uh, comedic extravaganza, Shining Girls has given us a good

excuse, uh, great news. It's a great news series on Apple TV Plus. We're going to get to that, but we have a lot to cover um first of all i want you to know i went the extra mile on research today i didn't go to just the wikipedia page and just to the i mdb page i went to a source i went to a close source and i said what makes lizzie moss tick what do i need to know oh how intriguing here's what i've learned this is not that insightful i mean but blame the source not me downton abbey fair to say it's an obsession fair to say it's a preoccupation i'm currently on a rewatch and i'm on season five so yes okay and uh the only other nugget i got is that you may have seen the last dance more than once which i've been talking to i'm so intrigued because this

is such up-to-date information it might someone might be in your vicinity as you shoot a show right now, someone who you've lovingly photographed their, their delicious eyebrows and other body parts. I knew it. I knew it. As soon as you said the last dance, I was like, ah, it's Max. It's Max Miguel ratted you out. But these are good things. Downton Abbey. I mean, you must be psyched for the new film. We're weeks away. Very, very excited. I find it a, I know we have a comfort film to talk about, but I definitely find it a comfort television show. And, Then the last dance, I mean, I'll keep it brief because, you know, although I've requested three hours with you, I think we're only doing a first of many.

Let's not overstay either of ours welcome yet so far. This is a three-parter, I assume. But the last dance, I'm on my third rewatch of that. And here's the thing. I'm not even a basketball fan. I'm a sports fan, but I'm more baseball. And I don't know a lot about basketball, but Michael, this documentary and Michael Jordan has become a hero for me as super late in life. You know, obviously everyone's been on this tip for

a while. I came to it a little later. But I just heard about this Michael Gordon guy. He's kind of good. He's kind of a really great sportsman. I just find that obviously the documentary is so well made and so just genius the way that they crafted each episode to kind of build upon the last but and going back and forth between the two timelines. But MJ is just obviously incredibly, incredibly inspiring. And although what he does is very different than what I do, there are definitely times when I need a little bit of inspiration. I need a little bit of you can do it.

You can get up. You can get out of bed. You can keep going. And I find a documentary very inspiring. You both stick your tongues out when you're in the middle of a great scene or great moments. That's just an affectation. It's so true.

That's really the only thing Michael Jordan. and I have in common yet. And my biceps are very, obviously, that's, if one knows that. What is, and why is your production company, Love and Squalor? Is this a literary reference that is smarter than me? Is this like Jane Austen that I don't know? What is it? No, probably not.

I am a Salinger fan. And Nine Stories is my favorite book. Two is made with Love and Squalers are my favorite stories. You know, Lindsay, my producing partner and I, we went back and forth, and we tried for very long time to come up with a name. And it was really hard. And we were like, both of our initials are the same L.M. Lindsay McManus, Lizzie Moss. And we were like, there's got to be something in there. We're both Leo's. We were like, come on. There's something we can do with like astrology or something. And we just couldn't come up with anything. And then finally one day we were talking.

And I was like, what about something? What about something? And she was like, I love that. That's great. And I was like, okay. And I think for us, it kind of represent, we do have a very big, literary hold on our company. We do like to purchase and develop books and stuff. So it kind of came from that. It felt appropriate. But also it just felt like it described sort of the two sides of the company that we don't do just one kind of project. We don't just do comedy or drama. We really do have a very, very kind of diverse slate. And so it felt like it kind of, it also just sounded cool. I don't know. And I don't know if it's you or your partner running the account, but you can tell you guys have a good taste because it's got a fair amount of like David Lynch and

Albert Brooks and Oscar Isaac and these are like it's like Mount Rushmore of of cool dudes basically totally totally that's that's Emma who works in her company she runs our account she's she's younger so she understands the social media if you call it if you add the the to it and not just social media that means that you and I are of an age. You don't get it. I don't get it. So okay so let's because there is a lot to cover and as you know Often we do a little autobiographical talk here. Let's go back. Okay, your parents, as I understand it,

artistically inclined, fair to say, musicians. Oh my God, is that an alien that's a tentacle at you? There's a xenomorph next. Or I have a tail. This is Ethel who joins all my zooms. I love it. I love it. Ethel is welcome.

Lucy, my dog might join us as well. You know, my other cat's name is Lucy. Aw. Okay. So what kind of, were movies, pop culture, a big part of your childhood? What were you raised on? I wasn't raised really or on the pop culture of the time. It took me a long time to come around to my late teens, early 20s to really, I didn't

know who Nirvana was, even though I was obviously of age at a time when that was a very big deal. Radiohead was kind of the first time in my mid-teens that I was like, oh, this is a band that's currently playing that I can go see. These people are alive. For me, growing up, it was, I could, it was all Ella Fitzgerald, Louis Armstrong, Billie Holiday. It was all jazz and blues and classical. Classical because of ballet and jazz and blues because of my parents. So I could recite by, you know, verbatim, any Gershwin tune at 11 years old, if you asked me to, but I would not know who the current pop person was. I'm still not very good at pop culture. Like, I still, you know, I was looking at like the Grammys last night and I was, yeah, I know, who are these people? MTV still pays a lot

of my bills and I was watching the Grammys and I was like, oh my God, I can't tweet anything because I'll just sound like a 90 year old man. Like, who are these people? I know. I was like, I was literally looking online. I was like, who won Ben's jazz vocal album? I know, I know. So I'm still not very up on pop culture, which any of my friends will tell you. But yeah, that was my, that was my trajectory when I was when I was younger. And what about how did film and TV enter the fray?

Who were the first actors or films that you became preoccupied with? So that's a very good question. So, which I'm not surprised. So for me, musicals when I was younger would definitely the thing. Ginger Rogers and Fred Astaire, Gene Kelly, anything, anything that was, you know, West Side Story, you know, My Fair Lady, there was all of those sort of big MGM musicals. And then it kind of transitioned into Betty Davis, Barbara Stanwick, went down that road. And then when I got into an age where I could drive, because I grew up in L.A., I discovered Revival House. And I started to go by myself all the time, almost every single day I went through this period when I got a car and could drive when I was like 16 that I would go to revival houses almost every single day. The New Beverly, Lachma, you know, the silent movie theater. Like I, and so I, then I, that's when I saw Felini and Truffo and that's when I was like, ooh, this is real cinema. And got that kind of education.

television-wise, for me, the Wonder Years, yeah, the Wonder Years was the first show I really remember watching, feeling such a deep connection to. And in my opinion, I mean, there are a lot of great shows that have started this Golden Age of Television, but I think the Wonder Years was the one that really kind of was doing something way before anybody else was doing it, right? Yeah, it felt like it was aspiring to something more, at least. It was like, there was that base level of kind of just like going through the motions of most sitcoms. And this was obviously single camera and the narration and the music. It was all a step above. Yeah. And it was funny, but it was also heartbreaking. And it's, you know, I think

it really, it set me up for, oh my God, this is what television can be. And then the other one was my so-called life. Which, right? Which changed the game for me. I was a little younger than than Claire Danes when she did that. But I was close enough that I could imagine what she was going through. And for me as an actor, that was the first time that I had ever seen someone do that on television. That fractured, vulnerable, complicated performance that she did. And it truly was probably what set me off. I was like, oh, you can do that on TV.

Cool. So talk to me about the stuff, though, that you're doing early on, because obviously you're acting pretty early on and like you look at the IMDB it goes all the way back pretty much and some of the stuff though I mean look obviously as you progress it gets more sophisticated and more interesting as is the case for children and two adults I mean like suburban commando with all due respect is not uh oh no she's affected she this is it so I guess my sense is like in those meeting in those early gigs where you just kind of like happy to be at the party? Did you have judgment about what you were doing or what?

No, I was completely happy to be at the party. It had no control over what I was doing. Was so happy just to get a job, was so, you know, going on auditions and so happy to be doing anything. There was no choice, you know, in the matter necessarily. It really, for a long time, honestly. I think it wasn't until after really, I guess, kind of starting with the West Wing and then really after Mad Men that I was like got more choosy. But I was just taking what I could get. But I would imagine there are like again, if you look at the resume, there are some instances even early on around West Wing or prior where you get a chance to work with some like really esteemed, especially actresses, frankly. I remember I haven't seen it for decades,

but a thousand acres had like this amazing cast of actresses. I think you were Michelle Pfeiffer's daughter in that, if I'm remembering correctly. Yeah, me and Michelle Williams. We were, remember, we were, we were both, she was 14 and I was 12. Isn't that crazy? That is crazy. That is crazy. And then just a couple years later, girl interrupted, which obviously has this great

ensemble. I mean, did those stand out? Am I citing some that stand out as slightly special experiences given the actor, given the company of actors or no? For sure, for sure. I mean, I definitely did. I didn't have a lot of choice. in what I did as far as I wanted to be working and I wanted to get jobs.

But I will say that I wasn't cut out for things that of a certain ilk. I was more likely to get something like Girl Interrupted. I was more likely to get something like West Wing or, you know, because I just wasn't I wasn't a cookie cutter actor, I wasn't somebody who I wasn't bubbly. I wasn't a goth girl. You know, I didn't fit into any sort of like box that you kind of tend to try to fit into as a teenager and the teenage actor. I just was kind of weird and did these like kind of weird performances. And so I did sort of slot into your right, like certain films or certain projects that ended up being more interesting perhaps. Was West Wing clearly

just a prestige kind of show from the start. I mean, you step onto that set and you're working opposite, obviously, Martin Sheen and just the way it's shot, and I would imagine you feel the difference. Absolutely. And to the point of where, and obviously, I'm very, very close with Brad Whitford now

and am his boss, which I reminded him on all the time. And we've talked about it a lot now 20 years later, but he corroborates my story, that the feeling was that it was, way too highbrow and too intelligent at the time. You know, now we look back and go, well, of course, it would have been successful. But at the time, it was, yes, shot in a really interesting way, directed an interesting way. Obviously, Aaron Sorkin's writing, it was incredibly fast.

It was very, very smart. It had all of these actors that were these accomplished theater actors and some movie stars, like Martin and Rob Lowe and stuff, but, you know, but really were actor actors, you know. And there was definitely a feeling that it wasn't going to maybe maybe wasn't going to make it. And it wasn't very, it didn't hit right away. Sure. So, yeah. And so where were you at?

I know we're jumping around quickly because we don't have the three hours that you promised me. But where were you at like headspace wise, career wise when Mad Men came around? Again, you were talking about earlier on about like not fitting into any box, so to speak. Did you feel a comfort in where you were headed? Did you know what you wanted? Yeah, take me back to that time. Yeah, so I was living in New York. I did the opposite of what you're supposed to do. And I grew up in L.A. and you're supposed to stay in L.A. and do pilot season and auditions and stuff. And when I was 18, I moved to New York and started doing theater and independent films. And so I was existing in a space. I was 23. I was on and off the West Wing, but I hadn't really done a lot of the West Wing. at that, like we said, but that was like the last season of the West Wing. Sure. And I'd only done one episode that final season, I think. So it wasn't like a regular gig for me anymore.

And I was living in New York and I definitely wasn't, you know, super financially stable. And there were these, there was this pilot, Madman. And everybody in New York, all the actors were sort of buzzing about it because it was so good. But it was also on this network that nobody had ever heard. of and everybody kept calling it A&E and the only thing it had been was advertising in the 60s like how boring could that be and then at the time everybody thought that and then the only thing had it interesting for it was Matt Weiner and it was like oh well he did the soprano so that's cool um so it was it was one of those things where it was one of the best scripts anyone had ever

read that pilot um I'd never done a pilot before it was my first pilot oh wow and yeah and so we should shot it for two weeks in New York. And it was really fun and it felt special. But then that was it. And you just didn't know. We shot it in April and we didn't get picked up till August. And it was two weeks in April. And then I went back to my my summer in New York, you know, and turned 24. So I was a sort of semi-struggling actor living in New York. So when you look back now at what the eight nine years of that show do you see like if you if you happen upon various episodes are you seeing more of peggy's progression or more of lizzie's progression as an actor like what strikes you when you see season one versus season eight of that show um i definitely see both

you know because they're so intrinsically linked um you know when you have a season or when you have a show that goes nine years i went from 23 to 32 so that's a lot of you're a lot of of life that you live. It's a lot of growing up that you do. And I can't separate the two, honestly. I see episodes and I know where I was in my life and I can't separate the two of them. I think the thing that I see, if I really go back to like season one, is there's like a, I definitely think I've become hopefully, I don't know if I want to use the word better, but a deeper actor since then. I've heard of more complicated actor. since then, and I can definitely tell that, okay, that's me at 23.

Like, that's a performance that is, I think, certainly good, but I should hope in the last, you know, whatever amount of years, I've deepened my, my skills. So I look back at that first season and just see a kind of, I don't know, a simplicity that is, but the simplicity that worked for that character at that time, it wouldn't, you know, it couldn't have been any other way. So me now couldn't play that character. I'm curious. So we talk about like stuff like the West Wing and Mad Men,

which were clearly the longest running gigs at that point in your career. And then we flash forward to the recent stuff you've been doing where you're producing and you're directing your own projects, your own TV projects, which isn't necessarily the norm, especially the directing part. Talk to me about like how those experiences, whether it's just those two shows specifically or others, have informed how you want a set run.

now that you get a chance to decide how a set is run. Yeah, yeah. There's sort of two things that informed that as an actor or as number one on the call sheet and then, of course, as an executive producer as well, West Wing taught me how a set should be. I wasn't a producer on that. I was in and out, so I wasn't involved so much

in the behind-the-scenes machinations. There was a lot going on that I didn't know about, but I just knew what it was like on set, and it was this group of incredibly professional, talented people who knew their lines, who came to work on time, who had fun while they were doing it, were hilarious. There was an incredibly fun atmosphere. Everyone was very nice to everybody, you know, no matter who you were on the crew, everyone was really respectful and nice and that's what taught that was my first experience on a show like that and i and i thought oh this is what it's like so this that was it and then moving moving

forward from from we and we kept that up on madman and obviously on him means and the directing part um for me was very much uh top of the lake i was i was very influenced by working with jane and jane campion of course yes yes the great Jane Kempian. Oscar winning director as of late. Exactly. Exactly. Bravo.

She creates an atmosphere on set that is something that I strive for every time I'm acting or directing, but especially directing. She, it's so safe for the actors. That is exactly why she gets such good performances out of every single actor she works with. She creates an environment where the performance comes first. Nothing else matters. if you're behind, even if something is gone disastrously wrong, you wouldn't know it. Like she just, you won't rush that rehearsal. You won't rush that blocking. You won't, you'll do as many takes as you need to do. And it's just this lovely, lovely safe, calm environment.

And I, I absorbed that by osmosis, because it was way before I ever thought I would direct. And now I try to, I try to do it. I try to do it every day. just because you buttered me up doesn't mean I'm not going to deliver the hard-hitting questions because one and I don't know if this is I mean you say obviously beautiful things about Jane you were supposed to be in power of the dog is that and is that is that tough for you to I know scheduling stuff I think it was handmaids related probably with the pandemic as well of course was it tough of course I mean it's I've had a I've had a I've had a I'm not a few of those, to be honest. And it's always scheduling. And, you know, when you have a day job like handmaids, it takes up a lot of time and it's really hard to sometimes do other things. That was a really tough one, though, because of my relationship with Jane.

And I had actually been involved or speaking to her about the project for quite a while, a couple years before I wasn't able to do it. But we tried and we tried and we tried. I know that we all tried, and I mean on the handmade side and on their side, I know that we all tried so hard. It just became impossible for me to be able to do both and be in two places at the same time. But yeah, but at the same time, you know, I think when I think that I have so much respect for Kristen Dunst, she's one of my favorite actors. So I think if somebody had done it that I didn't love, it didn't. respect. I would have been really pissed. But I was like, okay, good. At least like somebody is taking

care of that role. Somebody is going to do an incredible job. Obviously, she did. And so that's the best case scenario in this. And I, you know, I hope that I'll get to work with Jane again. It's funny because, you know, you talk about like that stuff happens all the time, whether people hear about it in the press or not. And it's almost impossible to wind up all the ships in the right way, especially when you have like a very busy day job. I mean, frankly, what struck me when I was looking at like the madmen years is how much great work you were actually able to do while you were doing madmen because I've talked to so many actors where it's like that great opportunity sucks them out of the universe for like 10 years and like you look at

what the stuff you got to do it's very varied you do a bunch of theater uh speed the plow you do children's hour in the west end you get into the greek you get this Alex Ross perry relationship going through three different films uh Walter salis on the road so like did you feel like again like we talked early on, like at first as an actor, you're just taking what's available. Then you're starting to get a little bit of the luxury of choice. Like, did you feel during the Mad Men years you were able to steer your own ship and pursue the kind of filmmakers and the kind of projects you wanted? Or was that the list of things I just said, like, amazing luck?

Kind of probably a bit of both. I definitely am more, I'm in more of a position now where I'm able to have these opportunities and you know whether or not I end up getting to do them or not um there's you know I get to talk to filmmakers that I'm obviously huge huge fan of then it was a little bit of both it was like it was like oh there's this play that's what I want to do that sounds great I'm going to go do that but then also there's something like get him to the Greek which which just came to me and I was like cool like that sounds like a very fun experience to be a part of um the thing that really uh changed for me the sort of the way things were going was top of the lake within madmen um because i shot that

first season i don't remember if it was after season four or five of madmen's maybe four and it was so different from peggy and it was so different from from madmen and and i i think i wasn't quite sure if people if if if people were going to let me do something else because peggy had become quite popular. And I wasn't sure if I could really do something else. And Jane, not to make this like a, you know, this is like a podcast, but she is a huge part of my life and career. And she believed in me and she thought I could do it. And she saw something. And it was that that really kind of changed the trajectory because I think it allowed me to see and it allowed other people to see that there was, these were the kind of projects that I wanted to do. And these were the kind of people I wanted to work

with. And I wasn't just going to be doing Mad Men and that was the end of that or move on to another show and that was all I was going to do. I wanted to diversify my career and sounds so businesslike. No, but I mean, it's also rewarding. I mean, you're you're engaging different parts of your, you know, your artistic pursuits. And that leads me to handmaids, which is like, I'm curious, obviously that show as it's progressed, your involvement in other facets of it have progressed to becoming an executive producer and directing more and more. Was that something that kind of organically happened or on day one of handmaids where you like, if this goes right, I'd love to have more of a say in all aspects of it.

It was extremely organic, which I think was the best way. The first season I was a producer and even that, which you know in TV, it's just for the people listening, like a producer in TV is lower than an executive producer. And then nonsensically in film, it's the other way around. Um, nobody knows why. Um, but I was a producer on the first season. I remember having a conversation with them about that and saying they offered it to me. And I said, okay. I said, but just so you know, like if that's going to happen, I really want to be a producer. I don't want to just, I don't want to just be a title. And they were like, okay. And then I really, really was that

first season, you know, helping to hire Reed Marano, helping to cast. I really was involved. And Bruce Miller and Warren really involved me. And then I got this. when I was driving in L.A. from Warren Littlefield, and he said, this was before season two. And he said, just so you know, I just got a phone with MGM and we're promoting you to executive producer because we feel that that's the job that you're actually doing. I was like, oh, my God, Warren Littlefield. What a show of incredible support. I love that, man, so much. He's like the most notable alum from my, like, forgettable college. It was like when I went to Hobart college in upstate New York. It was always like Warren Littlefield and Christopher McDonald from

Happy Gilmore. Those are our two big alarms. That is so funny. Oh, wow. I derailed you. Yeah, anyway, but he's a good guy. Yes. Great footsteps to follow in. He is very much a wonderful human. Anyway, so then I started being an EP. The director thing came about kind of because the thing that we do on the show that I think is unique, that I like, to do on other things now, though, is the relationship between me as the lead actor, the cinematographer, and the director is very, very, very close. So we started to sit down and do page turns of every single episode with the director and the DP, and we would just talk about shots and we would talk about blocking and we'd talk about story and the DP being there,

I suppose, was one of the things that was a little bit more unusual. But we just felt like it was essential to have the person who was photographing it to be aware of what the story was and what the scene was about. So because of that, and I did that with, you know, Mike Barker and Dana Reed and these directors, Derblow Walsh, these directors that I came, were coming around. I admire so much. I started to kind of think more like a director and, and be thinking about it from that point of view. So the transition into directing was very, very organic because I just felt like I knew this story really well and I was very, very close to it and I was very close to all the elements of the show. And it just seemed like something that, well, I want to try to tell

this story now. So it was a very, very organic process. And that leads us to Shining Girls, which, okay, so this is the new series for Apple TV Plus. It features you as an executive producer and a director. How many episodes did you direct of this one then? Two. Okay. So talk to me about sort of how this one was in development for a while. I know. Um, it's an interesting, look, I've seen the first four episodes. Excellent work from all. I mean, never trust Jamie Bell as sweet as he seems off camera. Never trust the guy that pulls like the wings off of B. This is a lesson for the audience out there. But look, it's a show. I mean, argue, but you tell me what the show thematically is about. I don't want to tell you what I

think it is. You're the, you're the EP. What is this show about for you? No, I, I want to hear what you think it's about. For me, what it attracted me to it in the first place was I felt like first of all, I love kind of high concept stuff. I love sci-fi. I love horror action. We can talk about that ad nauseum. That'll be part two. But I was very attracted to this sort of idea of this time-traveling serial killer. And then she had Silco the writer and obviously based on the book, had sort of Trojan horsed this metaphor for trauma into it. And I love that as well. I mean, that's why I love sci-fi

and that's why I love horror because that's all it is, right? Is you're taking a deeper issue and you're putting it in this genre. So I loved the concept of that and I thought it was done so well. And I also thought it was just tonally very different from handmaids. And I read it during season three of Handmaids and I was looking for something different.

I certainly wasn't looking to do necessarily another show, but I wanted something that was entertaining, that was cliffhangery, that had a kind of fun side to it, if you can call it fun. So yeah, I just felt like it was really different. I think the show is incredibly challenging. I think it is in quite intentionally not going to be the clearest thing you've ever watched. You know, it takes a second to develop what it is that's happening. Well, even the genre stuff you're talking about. It's like, wait, is this a genre?

And it's like, it took my wife and I a second, be like, oh, this is, this is sci-fi. Okay. Totally. And it's this, it is, it is, when we were figuring out of market the show, it was really, interesting the conversations because we were like, this doesn't fit in any genre. Like this, we can't market this as a serial killer show. We can't market it as a science fiction or horror or thriller because it doesn't actually fit into any genre. And then we realized, oh, that's its virtue. That's what we actually embrace. That's what we love about it. That's its

great. It's asset. It isn't like anything else you've ever seen. So we decided to sort of lean into that. Is there any connections to be made that anything useful out of the experience of invisible man, which in some ways dealt with trauma, abuse of different sorts? Is there something from there that you can carry on to this one? Or is it apples and oranges for you? I feel like, I mean, we could we could sort of try to analyze and unpack the career that I seem to have developed, which is very, very focused on women going through traumatic experiences. And it is of no design of mine. But my joke is just don't ever give me a child and a story because I will probably lose her.

Like, they'll get taken away or I'll lose her in the woods. For some, like, I just can't seem to hang on to my children in these projects. I think it's, for me, apples and oranges in the sense of, I don't know, I feel like invisible, man, the tone is so, the tone. is so different of that film you must take a certain pride that that was i think the last um quote unquote original theatrical film ever to succeed at the box office before the end of the world like i mean like i'm being somewhat facetious but i feel like that was the last one that we'll see for a while that's not attached to marvel or dc or star wars or some kind of genre property obviously it's a genre it's invisible man but it's not it's a seven million dollar movie i mean

Exactly. Exactly. No, it's a very strange distinction. I remember talking to Lee a little while after the shutdown and we just had this whole conversation about like, can you believe this is the, this is this is the distinction of the film is that it was the last movie people saw in in the theaters. And the last normal movie going experience that wasn't judged or based on post-pandemic, you know, feelings. Very, very, it's very, very strange. I live on the Upper West side of New York, and the visible man poster was up for like six months. Oh, I know. That was that stuff. That was the freakyest stuff. That was like the I am legend stuff where like, yeah, I live close by you, apparently. Because like, yeah, going by Times Square occasionally and seeing like stuff from like nine months ago. It's like, oh, God, it's the end of days. I know, for the greatest marketing campaign by Universal ever done. I'm like, wow, they really got their money's worth with that poster. Is there any talk lately of another story from Lee and you? Yeah, I mean, I definitely want to work with Lee again for sure. I had such an incredible experience working with him, and he's such a great writer, too. So I definitely want to find something else with him. And, you know, we're trying to, you know, I guess it's not between us if I say it on this podcast,

but I was about to say between us. You know, we're trying to kind of crack the nut of a sequel and figure that out. I think there's more story to be told there. But of course, the first one was, in my opinion, pretty great. And, you know, with any sequel, you really want to make sure you know exactly what you're doing and you're doing it right. Well, it's a good sign that you guys, I mean, frankly, Universal must have been like, again, based on, it's probably the most profitable movie they've made since, you know, Jordan's films, frankly. So, like, it speaks volumes that you've waited a second to, like, crack it in the right way as opposed to, like, green lighted and just jump right back in.

no completely because there's you don't want to mess that up right i mean it's and it's people actually really um not the thing about that film that's so great that i love is that it is totally a genre film it's completely entertaining it's scary all of that stuff but what what me and our and our cinematographer as well did with it is it's a great movie it's actually just a good movie and it looks great and everything especially as you said for seven million dollars And so for me, I don't need to do a sequel, but I would want to, if I did, I would, I would, we need to capture that magic again, you know. All right. So let's talk.

This is a controversial subject. As I gather, you had a comfort movie in mind, you have a bone to pick. So what I've been doing is not, people might not know this. I ask folks to try to pick something new only for the sake of variety. I'm sure at some point we'll repeat. Lizzie had one in mind that she's, okay, so what was the one you wanted? Okay. So here's, here's, let me lay it out for your audience. As a long-time listener of this program, I did not realize that you were supposed to pick a new comfort film that had not been discussed. Now, I will say it is down to my own naivete that I listened to so many episodes and just happened to think that, oh, no one picks the same movie. It hasn't come up all.

It's happened once or twice where people have been like, oh, can I pick that other one? But very rarely, there are a lot of fish out in the sea. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, here's the thing. I listened to the Claire Foy episode,

and she picked when Harry met Sally, and I didn't think anything of it. I was like, oh, cool, great. Well, I'm going to do that one, too. And we'll talk about it again. And we can talk about how Claire Foy loves it, too. Anyways, it is, it's my favorite movie of all time. So I've always known that I would speak about that film with you,

on this podcast. You were robbed of it. And I was lied to and I have been robbed of it. So it's happening right now. Speak your peace. Speak your love. No, no. No, no.

I am going to stick to the rules and I'm going to respect them and I have picked another film. And here's the thing is I actually think it was, I actually think it turned out for the best because when Harry Met Sally is obviously, it's my favorite movie of all time. But I actually, as far as the film that I did pick, as far as what is a comfort movie, I, I'd like to talk about, like, why I think it's a comfort movie. It's obvious why when Harry Met Sally is a comfort movie. Like, of course, any nor Ephron film can be a comfort film.

But I'm actually interested in think it would be more interesting to speak about why I think this film is a comfort film to me. This film was my favorite film of 2013. It is the genius that is Alfonso Corone collaborating with his son on the script. It is starring the one and only Sandra Bullock and a very small company backers around her. It is, of course, gravity. Lizzie Moss, why do you take comfort in this gorgeous piece of filmmaking? Well, I just rewatched it this morning in anticipation of our conversation.

And for me, it's a perfect film. I mean, so there are two reasons why I find it comforting. One, it's inspiring and comforting to see a filmmaker make a perfect movie, in my opinion, and to see that that can be done. On a more, I guess, personal connection level, I think it's comforting to me the story of a woman who is in an absolutely impossible situation. You know, the film starts out with, I think it says something like, what is it, surviving in space is impossible or that's not exactly right but the first thing it said um you can't

survive in space basically so she has this absolutely insurmountable challenge and she perseveres and it would not be a comfort foam if she did not spoil or alert make it home at the end and i find the connection between her and george cluny's character so moving the fact that she doesn't give up in those final moments after the grief that she has felt through losing her child and then she pulls it together and she gets home. I mean, it is not only cinematically and visually, the sound, the editing, the VFX, everything makes it such a incredible film, but I think essentially at its heart, the story itself is what I find very moving and comforting. I wasn't as good as you and rewatched the whole thing,

I did watch the last 10 minutes again last night, which I think is like the best, like, ending of a film. It's so like you're like, I'm like in tears. It's a marriage of every aspect of cinema together. And like Sandra Bullock, who's maybe not gotten the credits she deserved. Maybe in recent years she has, but like back in the day was sort of like diminished as like, oh, she's that rom-com actor, kills it with the camera just trained on her face. Like, and you know better than anyone how difficult what she's doing is.

I get chills, just hearing what you just said. I mean, I don't know if you've watched any of the behind-the-scenes stuff on how they did it, but it's absolutely mind-blowing. And, you know, the amount of time that he spent with his team prepping the film and the amount of work that went into that. And, you know, it's going back to Sandra Bullock, though, when you watch the behind-the-scenes footage, you know, you realize, oh, my God, she's sitting in a studio.

with all these things on her face and she's got no one to act with and she's got no one to talk to and she's imagining all of this insane stuff happening around her which just for me makes the performance a hundred times more incredible um and i i i mean the opening is one of the best openings of a film ever made i think it's 17 minutes although if you look online some people say 12 some people say 13 it guess depends on where you're cutting it off but it's that 17 minute one looks like one shot, but I think it's like 120 cuts in it or something. Like it's, it's, it's, mind blowing. It's a, it's a good reminder. You're right. It's, it's a perfect movie. It's like 91 minutes. There's no fat on it. It is just like you're on the, and, and frankly, I mean, it worked watching on a

stupid, like, YouTube player for me the last 10 minutes, but like was also like that, as I recall, the great, like, you hear me talk about Fury Road every other week, like one of those great cinematic experiences. Like, it's top five great cinematic experiences to see that in a thing. theater. Oh, my God, completely. And the thing, I love sci-fi, as I mentioned, and for me, it, you know, that another film that I almost picked was a rival. So it's, it's very, very similar and what I'm about to say, but like the, the, the, the, the using of that genre, sci-fi to Trojan horse this deeper, this deeper message or concept or whatever you want to say, you know, of her dealing with her grief. There's all this,

incredible VFX. There's this incredible work done on the film to make it look the way that it looks. But the most important thing is that you really don't give a shit. That it's fully locked in on her story and her performance and what is going to happen next. And that is for me the true accomplishment that he pulled off. So as we wrap this up, you've done a lot of, I mean, us stands out as a great genre film. It's not sci-five. But like, so have you, I don't know, Have you put the feelers out? Are you thinking, like, is that on the list? You've talked in the past, I know about, like,

wanting to do a rom-com after all this, like, dark material, which, of course, you must do. But it sounds like sci-fi is also very high up on the list. Very much, probably more than rom-com. You know, rom-com is obviously, as you know, very, very difficult because it needs a very, very good script. And unfortunately, but that's not made anymore. No longer with us.

Yeah. Yeah, so, oh, well, that was fun. Yeah, exactly. That's over. Um, but sci-fi for me, more than I would, that would be the dream. I mean, Christopher Nolan is my, you know, just, I can't. I bow down. I just can't with that man. Um, you know, so doing, doing a sci-fi would definitely be an ultimate goal for me. I'd love to, at some point later, when I am a more experienced director, I would love to direct a sci-fi film, um, but it's not easy. So I'll wait a second on that. Um, but yeah, a sci-fi film would be the, dream for me. I don't know what to say. You had me, you know, on my back foot from the start, Lizzie, with your compliments. So hopefully I was semi-coherent, but you're the best. And I love talking about you. This was so easy to talk to you about film because obviously you come at it

in the same way I do, just like loving all different sorts of genres, all different kinds of actors, filmmakers. So hopefully this is the first of many. You're welcome back anytime. I have to come back because I feel like I just want to talk about movies with you. I feel like we have so much to talk about. We need, you know, like, I think you have, I know we have a lot of the same tastes from listening to your podcast, so I definitely, I have a lot to talk to you about. Good, good, good, good. Well, handmade's hopefully before too long, and that'll give you an excuse to come back,

but you're welcome anytime. And everybody should check out Shining Girls Apple TV Plus. As always, she delivers. And now she's delivering behind the camera more and more, too, which is really exciting and impressive. So thanks for the time today. Thank you, Josh. Appreciate it.

This is such a dream come true. And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't to do this by Josh. The Old West is an iconic period of American history and full of legendary figures whose names still.

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