Happy Sad Confused - Emerald Fennell, Vol. II

Episode Date: February 12, 2026

Emerald Fennell is back with another film that has everyone talking. She's followed up SALTBURN with an adaptation of her favorite novel, WUTHERING HEIGHTS, and she's here to talk about it all, Jacob Elordi and Margot Robbie, the romance and sex, the world building, and more. SUPPORT THE SHOW BY SUPPORTING OUR SPONSORS! QUINCE -- Go to ⁠⁠Quince.com/HAPPYSAD⁠⁠ for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As an actor, what's the worst note of director ever gave you? Can you take your knickers off and let me film up your skirt? That's not a cool note. No, it was one, it was not a cool note. Wow, that, okay. Yeah, there you go. How'd that go over? Not great.

Wait. More. No. But, you know, that's, it wasn't how long ago, when did I start? You know, it's not long ago, is it? Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused. begins now.

Hey guys, I'm Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy Say I Confused. Today on the show, a returning champion, the wonderful writer-director that is Emerald Fennell. Her new film is Wuthering Heights. This is a great chat with one of our most talented filmmakers working today. More on that in the second. Before we get to Emerald, I want to remind you guys, if you enjoy what I do, check out the

Patreon. Come on, patreon.com slash happy Sayac Confused early access discount codes. the heads up on our live events. We've got some cool ones cooking. If you like what I do, check that out. Support us over there. It helps us make more stuff over here. Okay. Not much preamble here except to say Emerald Fennell, you know her, you love her promising young woman. She won the Oscar for writing that one. Saltburn, I don't need to tell you about that one. She is re-teaming with Jacob Laudy and now Margot Robbie in this very bold, big take on Wuthering Heights. This is not your mom and dad's Wuthering Heights. This is a

take on Wuthering Heights as only Emerald Finnell could deliver. It's gorgeous. It's romantic. It's sexy. It's all the things you want in an Emerald Finnell movie in a Wuthering Heights film. And if you've never heard her chat about her work, her writing, she's a cinephile. She's smart. She's funny. She's everything we like on this podcast. And this is a delight, as always. So I want to thank you guys for watching and listening. Remember hit that subscribe button. however you're enjoying this. I appreciate you guys. I want to thank not only Emerald, but the folks at Hoff Studios who gave us their facilities here to record this in person. And without any further ado, here's my chat with the one and only Emerald Fennell. Why look, it's Emerald Fennell. I didn't see you there. Yes, sorry, I just appeared. You just like swooped down, repelled. Yeah, absolutely. Like the fly, I just like zapped in. The fly is on my list of movies to bring up today.

We were just talking Cronenberg. The fly is a perfect movie. Correct me if I'm wrong. No, I won't. I'll correct you for being right. Very jet-lacked. It is a perfect movie. Also, Jeff Goldblum, as a fly, still would.

As half-man, half-fly? Great. In fact, more. The bruntle fly is preferable just to the... The more-the-meria. Oh, my God. We're off to a perfect start. Emerald, it's good to have you back on the podcast.

Thank you. Congratulations on this. ambitious, big, bold, wild, beautiful movie. Wuthering Heights is the film we're talking about. Thank you. It will drive us mad as the poster promises. I think probably, yeah. It's driven me, mad.

In the best possible way. It's also a good reminder for men like myself of normal height that there are people like Jacob that make me feel inferior. Like, not even like a man. He's a tall drink of water, to say the least. I think also the thing about both and Margot, too, you know, spending whatever it's been now a year of my life looking at the, and just Anjizat and Hong and Alison,

basically staring at these faces for the last year, it's really, it's kind of changed me profoundly. I'm now like, they're so beautiful and they're so amazing. If Jacob were a foot shorter, is he your Heathcliff? Yes. Really? Yes. That speaks to his.

Totally. Well, because I think that he's, it's to do with, look, it's to do with his eyes and it's to do with who he is. Like, I think the thing about Jacob that I find really fascinating and wonderful is that he's, he sort of emanates this kind of tenderness and goodness. And I don't know, there's something very unusual about him that's hard to kind of explain. And that's the thing that I loved for this was that, you know, if you have. have to play kind of the biggest anti-hero of all time. If you have to play somebody who's extremely hard to love, you have to be a person that's not just a deeply talented actor, but somebody who's sort of got this, I don't know,

innate kind of sympathy that they bring with them. And that's what he's got. I mean, if anything, being so tall is complicated for shooting. I would think. Yeah, just the practicalities of it. Yeah, the practicalities. But it does feel like you utilize that, not to harp on the height thing, like just but it is striking.

Like, I feel like you're utilizing it. You're leaning into it in the film. That differential is important. I mean, sometimes it's like he almost can't fit into the physical spaces you put him in. Yeah. Well, we built, I mean, Susie Davis, who's the production designer on this and who worked on Saltburn, too, and it's just like the best, the best ever. One of the early conversations about building the set was to build Wuthering Heights

to be too small for him. Right. To have that idea that he's never quite fitting into any. place that he's in and even later when he kind of comes back and he's wearing these kind of beautiful clothes again you know working with Jacqueline the costume side about nothing quite it's he's never comfortable right he's always sort of straining against the kind of physical reality of the place he's in so at what point in the process were you you're making salt burn was Wuthering Heights I mean obviously I know this is this is the book for

you this is a book for you um how far along were you in thinking about this seriously as your next project? And when did Jacob emerge as your Heathcliff? So I, I've talked about this a bit in the past, and I always think I sound like increasingly mad. But I live, I just live in kind of imaginary universe. The way that I write is I've always lived in a few parallel universes at once. And so one was saltburn and one was promising a woman.

And, you know, one was my book monsters. And one has always been a Wuthering Heights since I was 14 and I read it. and I never know what the next thing's going to be because I only do one thing at a time and what kind of happens is I go to these little places of my imagination and one of them sometimes just like pulls into focus a bit more sharply than others and it's never necessarily the one that I expect it to be

and so part of that process with this was obviously it wasn't just Jacob you know when Jacob came out in his 2005 sideburns and I was like oh he's, He's the Heathcliff on the cover of my book. You know, that's the kind of, that was my 14-year-old girl self. And that was the kind of thing that sort of like, you know, that image and that book kind of destroyed my life. And I was like, oh, wow.

And so that was sort of folded into it. But also, but also for Saltburn, you know, the grave scene in Saltburn is kind of taken from Wuthering Heights. And everything that I think about in a funny way is taken from Wuthering Heights because it was like the first thing that made me think, that you can make something, I don't know, difficult and transgressive and you can make something that speaks across century, you know, it just kind of like changed my life so much. And so I'm always thinking about it. But yeah, it was, it felt, Wuthering Heights felt so much a part of saltburn.

And perhaps that's kind of what it was. But yeah, and then, and then, of course, it was just, I just thought he'd be amazing. It's interesting. So you mentioned like, you know, the 14-year-old self. Like I was doing some of the math of like where you were as a kid in terms of films that you've referenced or maybe haven't referenced, then these two you have. But you're 11 and 12, I think, respectively when Basil Ormond's Romeo and Juliet comes out and Titanic come out the following year.

Is it safe to say those two have informed everything including this? So I realized I was just nodding so emphatically. and this is an oral medium. So I should say, yes, like any young woman, I would say, particularly, those movies were just completely transformative, not just because of my lifelong, truly psychotic love of Leonardo DiCaprio in those movies, but because they were kind of disruptive, actually.

You know, Baz Luhrman's Romeo and Juliet, was so kind of audacious and beautiful. And it felt so young, it felt like it was something that I could connect to. And he was using Shakespeare's actual words, you know. And then Titanic, which could have been, you know, in many ways could have been an action movie and is an action movie.

What it was was the most moving film about being in love. And it just so happened to have like an enormous iceberg. And so those two, yeah, those two films just kind of, I think changed all of us and also they changed the way I kind of maybe that I like to make movies that people would want to go

and see multiple times, that would become kind of like part of you because I think I realized early on that I wasn't going to make stuff for everyone, that not everyone would love anything I could make, but that hopefully

for the people that do love it, they'd love it like I loved Romeo and Juliet. Well, it's what, yeah, so I I remember, I'm a couple years older than you, I think, actually more than a couple, sadly. But I was watching Titanic and going back and back and back. And it was like, you know, it wasn't, it was designed for everybody. Yes, it was ostensibly for teenage girls, but it was like I was probably 18 when it came out. And wanting that experience, wanting to feel and just go through that experience over and over again.

And those movies are very rare. And I feel like people aren't even like even attempting the big swings like that anymore. No, and also I think feeling right now, feeling emotionally or physically is kind of embarrassing. Right. We're in a real world of kind of we live in a state of constant embarrassment and shame, I think, all of us. And so to make anything that you say, I feel things, maybe you might feel things too, is sort of gauche. Right. And so I feel like I can be cheesy.

This is your way being unironic and earnest and... I think so. And I think that is dangerous to be a feeling person now. Because it is sort of an act of transgression. And I think that I am... But also, like, I think the movies are also sort of... You know, they can be sharp and they can be, you know, all the things that they are a little bit, like, ironic and things.

But mostly what I want is for people to feel something. And that's like scary because it's much easier, or I think it would be easier to be restrained and subtle and to kind of not be so extra all the time. But I think, I don't know. I don't really know how to do it any other way. I love the maximalists. I love like the Bazes, the George Miller's.

Like I want it all. I want that. I mean, I can subtlety is great too. Yeah, of course. of good. There's room for all of it. Absolutely. There's totally room for all of it. And I think it's just, we've been, it's now, and I feel actually now more and more, things are feeling a bit like we're getting into a much more, like, expressive world of movie and TV making again.

So that's really fun. We'll be right back with more, Happy, Said, Confused. Oh, please, not that music. That music gives me nightmares from my childhood. Could we get something a little bit lighter, some lighter music here? Are you a fan? of true crime TV shows. And what about Unsolved Mysteries? The show that jumped started

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every Thursday night at 8 p.m. Eastern on YouTube.com slash the Glass Cannon with the podcast version dropping the next day. See what everybody's talking about and join us in the dark. Okay, so talk to me a little bit, your approach to this. You can go a thousand different ways in adapting anything.

Did you know, when you started to adapt this, did you know what you wanted to use, what your way in was, or did you go through different iterations of what your Wuthering Heights would be? I think, well, I think what I knew was, because I'm such a big fan of it, and I'm so obsessed by it, I knew really early on that I wasn't going to be able to do, that I don't think anyone could do a very literal adaptation of the book, because the book is not a very literal book. It's very emotional.

It's very strange. But what I really wanted to do was try and make something that felt like a 14-year-old girl's imagining of the book. So then I wrote down, having read it then, of course, for the first time and then many, many times since, I probably hadn't read it for a couple of years when I was really thinking about it. And I wrote down everything I remembered from the book.

And some of it was right. And some of it was nearly right. And some of it was just absolute outright fantasy and wish fulfillment. And so then it was a kind of, and then it was that thing of deciding which of those things to preserve, which of that hopeful to keep or the kind of you know I don't know the sort of your own relationship to

something and and of course part of that was then like just doing because I'm you know I'm a nerd just an huge amount of research and not just of all the other movies and you know because you really want to make sure that you've so much of things can be absorbed you know so there are I think 11 or 12 movies of this of this book all of them are different in some ways and the same in some ways. They all kind of share a DNA, but a profoundly different. And so I needed to, obviously, having watched all of them, make sure I hadn't accidentally absorbed something.

So there was that, and then there was all of the thousands of sort of illustrations, and then, like, figurines, posters, decorative plates, all the, and Kate Bush's song and all the other songs. Like, there's so much of when something is this old, it sort of has its own, you know, you go up to the old personage, where the Brontes lived and it's still, it's an industry. Right. And so it's sort of trying to find a way somehow of responding to all of that.

Yeah. So you put the title in quotes as kind of an announcement of like this is, this is Wuthering Heights, but this is a version of Wuthering Heights. This is my Wuthering Heights. You could have called this Emerald Fennell's Wuthering Heights. That could have been the title. Can you imagine how pompous that would have been? I mean, others have done it.

I would have, no, no. I think, and others have done. And others have done it deservedly, but I think with your third film, also I think my reputation is such that I don't think it's a great, you know, you want to, you want to, yeah, kind of keep away from that a bit. I mean, I was funny, like, I was saying before we started, like Dracula always comes up in our conversations like that. It was called Bram Stoker's Dracula when, ironically, that was also a very similar kind

of like, that was a take. That was a, that was such a great take. A great thing. Can we just talk about that take? But I do think, but it's important because, I mean, Bazelom's Romeo and Julia is William Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet because it is literally word for word the text. And actually, for me, I really did keep as much of Emily Bronte's.

Like, I would say it would be up there in terms of adaptations with the kind of word for word. I hope it's quite high in terms of her word. So I think, but yeah, I mean, of course I had to put it in inverted commas because there's no way of even attempting something like this that is going to even touch how good it is or how rich and complicated and difficult. And I think that I knew being a kind of fanatic about the book myself,

I knew that whatever I did could never encompass everyone's love of the book. So I wanted to kind of be clear that I know that it's an attempt and only that. but also like yeah when it comes to like something like coppel as Dracula I mean that's a perfect example that is just I mean it's it's the feeling it's like the distillation of the Gothic to a degree the sexiness the camp you know because I feel very strongly and definitely was sort of thinking with when making Wuthering Heights like you cannot acknowledge that the Gothic which is so emotionally over were wrought and so often in a lot of ways far-fetched you have to exist with some amount of

humour and some amount of of of camp I think I think that's like a wonderful thing that's why I love that movie because it's just it's just marvelous and also I should a shout out to um to Dracula dead and loving it the lesnie nilsen banger because that's is also, I would say, as additive to the canon of Dracula as anything else. And if I had to sit down and write, if I had to write about, if I had to do what I did for Wuthering Heights, for Dracula, so much of Dracula dead and loving it would be there. Because I don't know anymore what ends. Well, and Mel always, Mel Brooks did that with Frankenstein, young Frankenstein.

Part of why that works, and it's my favorite comedy of all time, is it's take away the comedy. it's a gorgeously shot faithful Frankenstein movie. Yes, it's a masterpiece. They shot on the same sets as the original James Whale. I didn't know that. That's amazing. Well, I mean, Robin Hood Men in Tights. Where does the Robin Hood myth?

It's fuzzy. And that begin. You know, so I think all of that stuff, I think, you know, when you make a movie, especially a movie of a story that's so enduring and that people know very intimately or don't know and have heard of, you're kind of having to somehow, I think, engage with all of that stuff, too, the sort of echoes that it leaves. You have been making vampire movies, I think, secretly or not so secretly the last few times,

sadly. Heathcliff could have been a vampire reveal in the third act of the film. Well, so could Kathy. True. Yeah, they're feeding off of each other. Yeah. So have you ever considered an actual vampire tale? Yes. Of course. I mean, I think horror is the place that I start from. Like, horror is my natural space.

You're good at dread. You're good at... Thanks. Thanks. Well, you know that that's what haunts me. No, sorry, why would you know? You know. You know. When I got hypnotized. This is so crazy. When I got hypnotized, firstly, the first thing that happened was the hypnotist said that nobody had ever gone under as fast as me. He was like, hello, lovely to me. you and I was already under it. He was like, ma'am, we haven't started. We have not started, I haven't hypnotized you. I was so ready to go. Oh, my. But the thing that wouldn't, so they do a thing when they hypnotize you

for like various phobias, of course I'm riddled with them. They ask who's in the room with you. And they personify the things. And my first one was like, you know, whatever, basic bitch, anxiety. And they're like, please Lee, please ask anxiety to go, say thank you, you're trying to protect me and go. And I was like, thank you,

They all go one by one, all these little freaks that torment me. But then the last one is Dredd. And he said, okay, ask Dred to leave. And I just went sort of silent and he said, has Dred left? And I was like, no. And he said, ask, well, what happened? And I said, she won't leave. And she never left.

Still there. She never left. They got rid of all of the other stuff. We know it's a she. I think so. I'm haunted by, I'm quite. I'm quite haunted. But so Dread, I think, is my, and when I think of the artist that I love, I mean, they

call Patricia Highsmith the kind of grand priestess of Dread. And Dread is something that I think we're all very familiar with. And it's part of love and it's part of rage and it's part of shame. And all of those things are something that I think about a lot. Were you out in cults? It sounds like you would be very susceptible to a cult. Oh, my God, of course I would be. Look at me.

I'm desperate for somebody to just. Right. Take you away. Give you give you a Oh, just put Pop me in a cloak Just pop me in a cloak babe I just

You know it's it's Well it's why I think Fleabag 2 Was so moving And so connective To so many people Is that you know What she says

And I won't I won't be able To do a direct quote Because I couldn't Because you're so good But just want somebody To tell me what to do And I think that that's A very profound

And that's where Phoebe's genius You know It's just so connected I think to have so many of us feel now. We have so much autonomy, so much apparent autonomy in our lives. And yet we're so powerless. And so I think, and especially like, you know, of course. Would you be susceptible to a cult?

I don't think so. I'm obsessed with them. I mean, Jonestown, give me a Jonestown doc. And I'm like, why haven't they made? Do you know what? And then the studio thing. I was just going to say in the studio, the Kool-Aid movie, I was like, I know we're all laughing about this,

but I would die to see Scorsese's Kool-Aid, the movie. Of course. Someone needs to do like the real. They do actually need to make that movie. No, it's so chilling. It's so chilling. Well, it's, well, but also, I mean, if we may, if we touch on the terror of these times we live in. Yeah.

You, it is suddenly we see how. I don't know what you're referencing. No, I don't know what I'm referencing either. I don't know the kind of the pressing of hair or like hell against our windows. Let's talk more about dread. So because she's here. Don't worry. She's in this room.

Yeah, yeah. Can you feel her? She's here. There is that palpable. I mean, we were talking about Baz, and I think about world building. And I think this movie really, your first two films are fantastic,

but this movie you have leveled up in such a way as a true world builder. There is such a palpable sense of this world from costume, production design. It's all there. Talk to me about sort of like leaning in and how much of that is in the script, just how satisfying it is to like get to have the tools

at your disposal. to make something like this? It's so satisfying. It's so wonderful. As somebody who loves movies, and I went to Universal Studios when I was a kid and I was like, and somebody was painting a white picket fence on one of the sort of lots on one of the,

and I was like, oh, people do this. This is someone's job to make these things. You can, you know, as somebody just living in England who watched movies, I was like, oh, it's a physical reality. And that's such a huge thing for me is that, if you're building worlds, they better be real. Even if they're surreal, I want to, I want to feel them texturally. And so I've been so lucky, I've been so extremely lucky to get to work with the people that I work with and the crew that I work with as well as the actors who are

wanting to come and make something that could be terrible. Like that's where we approach everything from the beginning is like let's imagine we've never seen a period drama let's imagine that we're approaching this from a purely emotional place let's imagine we can do whatever we want without judgment and and that we can do something that has a kind of emotional physical connection to an audience and let's start from there and everyone I work with loves that and so it means that you know we could make and it's a sort of combination to go back to the kind of question of how does it start? There is, some is in the script

because it's a kind of a necessary sort of bit of plot or kind of character development or whatever, but a lot of it is just lots of conversations about how things make us feel. And you know, with Susie, a lot of the conversations were about, were about dread and about what kind of

how places give you a primal response. And so Wuthering Heights was, we kind of made. made it wet and it's sort of built out of this rock and nature's sort of invading it. And then at Thrushcross, it's this seemingly lovely place where nature's been sort of contained to a kind of really psychotic degree. And both places give you a sort of uncanny, slightly repellent feeling. And I think that's where I like to be is in that space of like you're leaning in,

but your face is going to get burnt. Right. Or you, yeah. Well, and I can imagine this is going to be, I've only seen this film once, but this is a film that will reward going back. And because you're using production design and set and costume as metaphor, and you're again, leaning into that. This is hopefully, I don't know if this is part of the mission statement, this is the poster on the wall of the teenage girl and the film that they're going to keep coming back to. I hope so. Yeah.

Because I guess it's sort of that's who I was. always am speaking to like I'm the first audience I guess like how consciously are you thinking about that in the screen running process or even on set of like I'm speaking to my 14 year old self here or is that just sort of intrinsic to I think it's just it is kind of intrinsic you know there's I'm not I'm not very some I'm not very uh I suppose I I it's quite an intuitive process and it's quite And it's a bit of a like, yeah, I'm not very thematic, even though I think that the films have strong themes. It's not, I'm not working from that place.

I'm usually working, you know, with Promising Young Woman, I was just working from a kind of personal place of this thing that people keep telling me isn't bad. If it isn't bad, then what if this, then if I did this, why would people be so scared, you know? And it's like, all with, saltburn you know it was about you know it was about these books that I've been obsessed with my whole life these like what happened in a country house one summer and why we're also kind

of obsessed with looking at people's lives and you know what we do you know it's just it's all it all comes from this kind of very personal place um and so yeah I I'm I'm never very mostly I'm just looking to feel myself and if a performance makes me feel something or or or or a prop makes me feel something that I'm hoping it will make somebody else feel something. More happy say confused coming up. From the darkest corners of our imagination comes a game show that's more ridiculous than terrifying. Welcome to Tickled to Death.

I'm your host, Roz Hernandez, and I'll be guiding guests through the creepy questions and chaotic games, all to win the ultimate tidal. of horror movie champion. Listen to Tickle to Death, wherever you get your podcasts, and hit follow, unless you want the show to follow you.

I'm Mandy, and I'm Melissa, and this is Moms and Mysteries. We're two Florida moms obsessed with true crime, from infamous cases like Ellen Greenberg to shocking Florida stories like the Dan Markell killing. With 55 million downloads, we bring you new deep dives every Tuesday and Thursday. Listen to Moms and Mysteries on Apple Podcasts,

Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. When you're directing actors on set and you know a scene has to achieve a level of romance, of sexiness, you can't say to an actor, be more sexy in a scene. So how do you get them there if you're not feeling it in that moment? It's honestly the same as every other scene. So I think that the thing that is the main thing that starts is, is, is, rehearsal, casting, the very beginning conversations. And we do so much rehearsal and with everyone in the cast and all of those sorts of things.

So by the time we get to filming, we kind of know where we want to be. And sex scenes are just romantic scenes. They're just connected scenes. Or there are scenes about power or their scenes about rage. You know, they're not, they're no different. It's a power dynamic that you're looking at. and it's so therefore it's never about the thing that it's about. Right.

And so I think for me it's always like how do we communicate what this very specific scene needs to do? And that's why they're just such great actors, is they understand that as much as anyone else. None of us, you know, we're not, a sex scene isn't in there for no reason. It's in there because it kind of tells you something about the character.

And I think I think in this movie and in Saltburn very much so. I think it might surprise some people when they finally see this movie that it's not an explicit movie. No. It's a very sexy movie. It's a very romantic movie. But there's almost no actual nudity in the film, if at all, right? Is that is that something that was considered at some point in the script stage?

Or is that a definitive early idea? Like, I don't, it doesn't, it's not what I need in a film. It's not what this film needs. How did you get there? Well, Saltburn wasn't explicit either. And everyone like, but the thing is, is that the only nude scenes in Saltburn are when alone. So they are one actor. And one is about grief and the other is about joy.

The sex scenes, you never see any nudity at all. And you never, I don't think you ever see below the weight. I mean, you rarely see below the shoulders. Right. you know, the most, the biggest erotic scene in that movie is between a man and a bathtub. So when we talk about explicitness, it's sort of interesting because it's explicit because of what we're thinking. But the movies that I grew up with and the way that they used bodies and the way that they in particular used female bodies, those were really explicit because often, you know, there was nudity and sex for absolutely no reason except for like,

whereas I think that the trick for me is always making people feel that they've seen more than they have and so in that way I think that you know Wuthering Heights is an extremely sexy book like it's so sexy lots of people argue about that lots of people feel that it is not a sexy book at all I believe it's a very sexy book I felt it was a very sexy book but you know nothing happens so that's that's the other side of things but I I you know, it's interesting the perception of something and the thing itself are so different. Well, I mean, you're good at playing with expectations too, even like the start of the film, the very opening of the film. We think we're in the middle of some hot, sexy,

scene and it's the pain, not the pleasure. And it's the pain, not the pleasure. But that's what, that is what the Gothic is, and that is what Wuthering Heights is, is it all, it's all pain. It's all pain, but there's so much pleasure in that pain, you know, and so that's kind of the, That was the center of trying to make the movie. What's the, in your opinion, the most romantic image in this film? And was it something that was preconceived or something you found on set? God. I mean, the thing is it's all so good.

I think the hand on the ankle for me is the most connected and devastating feeling for me. But, I mean, I could pick a dozen. depending on the day because it is yeah it is it is I hope a deeply romantic film

I bet you're a fan of age of innocence are you Oh yes of course Because when you're talking about that I think of just like him unbuttoning the glove Oh

Do you know what hands In general in these movies are crucial Yeah But no of course the age of innocence It's just a masterpiece Also DDL Come on

Can we just Oh Can we just What a romantic hero in that He's just, but the thing is, is because I feel similar, I really do feel similarly about Jacob because I think as Jacob, because he is so beautiful, it's easy to forget that he's just like,

he's profoundly talented also. And I think it was maybe similar with Daniel Day Lewis is that, of course, he is a very, very handsome actor and man. And, but it's not the thing that you necessarily first think of when you think of Daniel DeLewis. Right. Because he's just made such. great choices. But no, of course, I mean, he was such a good. And also, my beautiful laundret.

Yeah. You know, like so many amazingly, but again, I think romance or sort of films about love have fallen slightly out of fashion, right? But, but I, they're all the movies I go back to. According to, I wasn't at Sundown, sex is back and film apparently. Oh, I love, I love it. They say it every two years. Guys, sex is back. Westerns and sex. It's back. It's always back, is it? Not back? I think, no, it's. It's. No, it's. It's It's funny, because people have talked a lot during this process about this, like, Gen Z, you know, the whatever it is that they did a poll about and people don't. And I was like, what is that poll?

Find me the poll. Find me how many people actually responded to it. Who made the poll? Like it's so funny the way we absorb things. I just, in my experience, everyone has been kind of the same as time has gone on, which is that everyone's horny, everyone's sad, that's never changed. So like, you know. I'm going to change the name of the podcast, the horny said.

In your honor. You actually could. That's the time, right? Yeah, horny side confused. That is kind of where we live. That is why, well, it's why people are so interesting and so sad. What do you think of Jacob as the next James Bond? Oh, absolutely no comment.

Do you know what? I'm not. The thing is also, I'm not. You're not a Bond lady? I'm not saying anything. I can't say, I'm too, because I'm not asking you, do you know anything? I'm just asking out of opinion. No, no, it's just more that I, I dent.

I don't even like exist in a world where bond discourse exists. Do you know what I mean? I'm just like, I'm too scared. I'm too scared. It's like that in Star Wars, you can't. Okay. You know, you can't. You can't.

I'm too frightened. I'm too frightened. I found your, this is the dread. This is the source of my dread. Yeah. Is the source of my dread? No, it's more that like it's none of my business. Do you know what I mean?

I suppose. A couple random things for you. We touched on Killing-Eve last time. But I've done a lot with Jody over the years. I'm obsessed with her, as we all should be. That was your sweet spot, too. I mean, you love murder. Yes, thanks.

Did you have a favorite murder you got to write on the screen in Killing-Ave? I love Jody and Sandra. Those guys, that show, and Phoebe, that show. What an amazing. thing. My favorite murder actually on that show, I loved, well, look, I loved being axed to death. I loved Sandra having to axe someone to death. I did love, you know what, because I think about how I'd kill people a lot. Sure. All the time. Specific people or just like general? No, just general. Okay, got it. Generally, I think, yeah, so I think about, well, well, I mean, again,

like there's, so did Patricia Highsmith. She has this amazing, list that they found a one of her diaries called Little Crimes for Little Tots. Okay. And it's what children could do about the house to kill or maim their parents. And it's just such a great list. A kindred stirred across time and space with you. But no, but one of the ones was tie in a lift. So in I think episode two or three, Villanelle just, there's just a man in a lift and just before the lift doors closed, she just takes the, she just takes the tie and it just

garots him. And it's just such a simple one, you know. And I like those because it's just like, oh, you could just... It doesn't take... You don't need much. Nothing takes much with the will. That's what's scary and wonderful. There's dread in this podcast studio that you've just taught.

Well, no, but I just mean if we choose to... If we choose to be cruel. We could all do terrible things. And that's why life is sort of so fascinating is that we all actually don't. Like most of the time, people are just really kind and really generous and really generous and really good.

And that's just amazing when you think that we could not be. Well, and yet, to bring it back to this film, this film is about the cruelty we inflict on those we are obsessed and love the most and the irony of that. Yeah, totally.

And also just like, I think we all relate to that thing of pushing to see if someone will still love us. Like that's... How much do you really? Yeah. If I do this.

And we all kind of do that to some degree in our own lives and that is, you know, and also that's not just within the characters, but that's also in the book and in the film. And in all the films, you know, how much will we endure? So we joked about this possibly being Emerald Fennell's Wuthering Heights. It could have been, but you didn't want to invite that kind of conversation. But you are at a place three films in where your name does mean something to an audience.

Like that's rarefied, exciting air for you. So if Christopher Nolan's name means X, What does Emerald Ponell's name you think mean on future projects? What do you hope it means to an audience going in based on your name? Well, I think what I hope and what is the case are probably two different things. I think what has been, it's so funny because I feel that I feel so much, I'm quite a scared person in my life. I'm quite a worried.

We know this by now. we've got it. Yeah, I'm quite a like, you know, whatever, boring person actually. And then, and so it's, so it's been, I suppose it's been a real learning, because I've, these movies have come out in six years. Yeah. You know, and so that's a huge like, yeah, it's just a huge sort of thing to have happened. And so it's always, it's, it's, it's, I'm still kind of learning what that means and and and but I hope what I hope for some people it will mean is that I'm going to try something and I'm going to try something that hopefully people will you know respond to and I and I'm and that you're going to that that you're going to experience something that's and it's going to be you know

I don't know that it's going to be surprising I I don't I don't really I don't really know you know, I can't really speak for myself because I find that person, I suppose that you're talking about so far away from who I am. But it's interesting because even on our last conversation for Saltburn, you said to me, you said two things. You said you like messy movies and I agree. I like messy big swing movies. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.

That's the best stuff. But you also said like, oh, I like a reasonable budget. And this is a reason, I don't think this is like a $200 million movie, But this is a bigger scale movie. So have your ambitions changed? Again, you get to play with the department heads that are the best that can possibly be in something like this. So I would think that going forward, like, yes, I like to work on that level. That's true.

I mean, I think certainly there was something about this that I feel like as a woman. I think sometimes to do something like this on this scale, especially when you're making a romance. let's, you know, arguably that's what this is. I think, you know, it meant so much to me to see Greta make Barbie on that scale. Right. And she's so inspiring to me. And it means a lot to me to see near DeCosta making, like, not just one, but two movies in a year, both of wildly different genre and scale. You know, and it means a lot to me to see the bride.

Like that is not something I grew up with. And without kind of sounding twee, it's. means a lot to me and so actually I probably I think the next thing I do maybe I'm completely wrong I don't know what it will be yet but I would probably want to make something a little more contained again just because just as because I like to do things that's like different but it also meant a lot to me to be like you know we can do this it is possible and it's possible to make things at a big scale and you know with huge movie stars and all that kind of stuff and so and I think that it I know it would have meant a lot to me

going back to that 14-year-old girl to see that. Sure. Because it didn't, you know, we maybe had... A good count on one hand. Catherine Bigelow. Absolutely. I was just going to say Catherine Bigelow. But even, you know, Mary Heron and American Psycho,

that was a really transformative because it's such a masculine film. Yeah. You know, and such a brilliant, brilliant movie. And so I do feel like that for me is, I think, partly why I wanted to do this. Here's another random one for you. Last time you told me, this is way back in the past, but yours atana script you said was super demented. the one that you...

Oh my God, yes, Sajana. Can you give you an example of how demented it was? Well, I think it was demented because I was probably going through it at the time. And I think the thing is, is I can't help, but I'm not... I think what I've learned now, and then I just finished promising a woman, and there was this huge thing in this world that I'd never operated in. And, you know, again, it was kind of superhero movie. and I was like, okay, how do I make the version of a superhero movie that I would connect to emotionally, which is sort of the woman in the middle of a nervous breakdown?

So it's a script reflective of a woman in the middle of a nervous breakdown, I would say. And in terms of what that means, well, I suppose it just meant that it's, it was probably too far away from, maybe a little too far away from the genre. Okay. You know, and it was too. You made it personal and maybe too personal for the studio. Yeah, maybe. There was quite a lot of, it was really dark. And I'm not sure that, you know, I haven't read it for a really long time because I found it really difficult.

Because also the thing is I love JJ so much. And he took a chance sort of offering me to do it. And I really wanted to deliver something amazing for them. And I always felt like I hadn't quite, you know, maybe delivered the thing that, they wanted. And so I feel about that, like I haven't read it since. And I wonder if I read it now, I'd be more generous towards myself. But I felt like I wish I'd been able to like deliver the thing that they wanted. And I think, you know, they were really lovely about it. It's just, even just remembering like, you're making me remember scenes. I'm like, oh, nobody would have

made that. Nobody would have made it. So James Gunn calls you tomorrow and says, Emerald, Wonder Woman is yours. Well, that would be, that would be wonderful. I think It's, do you know, I know, what I do know is I can only make the one thing that I'm preoccupied with at a time. I can't really work, I can't really do other people's things. Right. You know, or maybe that's not, maybe it will happen. But I like to just, you know, if I can't go to my imaginary worlds, then I feel very marooned. So those are really kind of the only places I can work from, I think, because I'm not confident enough as a

director to work on somebody else's thing. We're going to let you get back to your private imaginary world in a second. Oh, thanks. But we end the podcast with our profoundly random questions. Oh, yeah. Okay. Are you a dog or a cat person? Snake.

We were talking before about lizards. Yeah. I wanted a pet snake. Yeah. Okay. What do you collect, if anything? Oh, sort of haunted artifacts. Anything owned by mostly female, so anything kind of owned by witches or...

Are they just around the house? Is there one room devoted to? I'm not allowed to keep them in my house because my husband says they're too scary. So they're in my office. They are really scary. What's the scariest object? What's the one that freaks you out?

Oh, they don't freak me out because actually I feel very kindly disposed towards witches and I feel very loving and like protective of them. There is a sort of, there's a witch from the Victorian times. There's a woman. She's a fortune teller and her finger is pointed. She's a small little model.

Her finger is pointed and you spin her barrel. and it tells you, you know, if you're going to have a good year or you're going to die, or your children will be afflicted by some terrible pestilence. You know, it's just that kind of vibe. The original magic eight ball. It's the pre-cursuit. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But she's got real hair, you know. Yeah, well, that's, you demand that. Yeah, yeah. Do you have a favorite video game of all time? Oh, my God, Tomb Raider. Nice, okay. Would you rather have a mouth? This is a Dakota Johnson Memorial question.

Would I rather have a mouth just, I can't. Would you have a mouth or, no, it's, it's, let you imagine. Would you rather have a mouth full of bees or one bean? your butt. That's the Dakota Jean-S. Oh, B in my butt? Yeah, right. Yeah. Obviously. I mean, I didn't even think I'd necessarily feel a B. Would you feel a B in the B in the B? It depends on the B, I guess, and the stinger, but... I guess so. Yeah. Anywho, what's the wallpaper on your phone? My children. Ew. Do you know what I mean? Boo. Boo. Lame! Last actor you were mistaken for? Do you ever get... Nobody ever. Like, I wish, I wish. I don't,

I don't think, I can't think of who. Oh, there was, do you know what? Somebody once said that they reminded me of who was death, not death, but not death, but I'm sorry, who was murder she wrote. Angela Ramsbury. Lansbury. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was, that was one, somebody thought that I, and actually, I love that because she was, she was absolutely gorgeous.

Yeah, picture of Doreen Gray? Remember that? She's, she don't think I've seen her version of Drian Gray. She's, yeah, amazing in it. What's the, as an actor, what's the worst note of director ever gave you? Can you take your name? knickers off and let me film up your skirt. That's not a cool note.

No, it was one, it was, it was not a cool note. Wow, that, okay. Yeah, there you go. How'd that go over? Not great. Wait. More. No.

But, you know, that's, it wasn't how long ago, when did I start? You know, it's not long ago, is it? Wow. There you go. Okay. In spirit of, yeah, what do you do with that? Sorry. No.

But you know, but these are the real world we live in. It is. In the spirit of happy, second, fused, an actor who always makes you happy. It is, hang on, because my brain's gone. Steve Bouchemy, forever and always. My first crush, my forever actor. I love him so much. You said it in Armageddon, the Sea of Beautiful Men in Armageddon.

I love him so much. I think he's the best actor in the world. And he always will be, and I'll watch anything. Have you ever tried to get him in one of your films? I can't go near him. I don't want to see him in real life because I'll cry. It's not for me. But I love him.

A movie that makes you sad. So many. What do you? Movie that makes me sad. Oh, I'm trying to think of a new one because I always talk about the same one. A movie that makes me sad, random harvest. Okay.

And a food that makes you confused. You don't get it. Anything savory with raisins in. Oh, okay. Like a lovely salad and there are raisins in. Right. No. Thank you.

Okay. But raisins in general, disconcerting. Just the... The fact of them. They're not right. They're not right. They're not right. They're not right.

They're not right. You feel their degeneration, right? You feel that they're wizened. Yes. That they're apologetic. Like nobody's like, you know, my favorite thing of all time is the raisin. A good raisin. It's a raisin.

You know, a raisin is an apology. We've really covered everything. I think so. We've covered the movie, which is fantastic, Wuthering Heights. We've covered raisins, Steve Busemi's second. sexiness worth as an actor. As an actor, I don't want to keep, you know, I don't want to objectify him. He's used to it.

It's okay. Okay, that's true. That is true, yeah, yeah. It's always good to catch up. Congrats, best of luck on the film. And back into your hole with your weird dreams and dread. Yeah, I'll go back to my witchhole. Yeah, my lovely witchel.

Thank you. Thanks for reading on horny, sad, confused. Oh, thank you so much. Yeah. And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person.

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