Happy Sad Confused - Emmy Rossum

Episode Date: May 24, 2022

We knew Emmy Rossum could sing and act but nothing will prepare you for her performance in ANGELYNE, her new limited series for Peacock. Emmy joins Josh for the first time to chat about why getting cast in PHANTOM OF THE OPERA was a surprise to her, the superhero role that got away, and more! Don't forget to check out the Happy Sad Confused patreon here! We've got exclusive episodes of GAME NIGHT, video versions of the podcast, and more! For all of your media headlines remember to subscribe to The Wakeup newsletter here! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Conditions apply, visit your local Volvo retailer or go to explorevolvo.com. Okay, it's official. We are very much in the final sprint to election day. And face it, between debates, polling releases, even court appearances, it can feel exhausting, even impossible to keep up with. I'm Brad Milkey. I'm the host of Start Here, the Daily Podcast from ABC News. And every morning, my team and I get you caught up on the day's news in a quick, straightforward way that's easy to understand, with just enough context so you can listen, get it, and go on with your day.

So, kickstart your morning. Start Smart with Start Here and ABC News because staying informed shouldn't feel overwhelming. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now. Today on Happy, Say, Confused, Emmy Rossum from Phantom and Shameless to her biggest stretch yet with Angelene. I'm Josh Horowitz, and welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused.

Yes, the main event today, Ms. Emmy Rossum, with, as I said, maybe the biggest challenge yet of her career, killing it in the new Peacock series, limited series, I should say, Angelene. But we'll get to that in a second. First up, let me catch you up on the comings and goings in my life. Let's see. I don't think we've talked about stranger things yet. Have we talked about stranger things?

I guess I can't expect an answer from you. I'm talking to myself in my bedroom. I don't think we have, though. I hosted an old colleague of mine by the name of Terry Schwartz the exciting world premiere of Stranger Things. It was in Brooklyn, and it was a real treat. So it was this gigantic setup where they had a major fan event, like 500 fans were brought in.

We had the stage set up in the Netflix studios in Brooklyn, and we live streamed on TikTok. I didn't even know you could do that. I'm not a TikToker, guys. Okay, technically I do exist on TikTok. You could follow me if you wanted, but I think I've posted one thing, and I don't know if I'm ever going to dive into TikTok. Should I? Let me know on social media. I need like a TikTok tutorial.

Let's try and say that three times fast. I'm intimidated by it. But anyway, whether I wanted to or not, I was big on TikTok for a number. night guys because I hosted, co-hosted this live stream on TikTok, which featured every star of Stranger Things imaginable. And it was just a blast. I love this gang. I've gotten to chat with all of them many times over the years. Of course, you know I love my David Harbor and my Winona Ryder, but the kids are great too and the kids are all grown up, or at least they're growing up really fast in front of our eyes. BuzzFeed did like a crazy like look back at.

the images of the young cast when they started, I guess, at five or six years ago. And now, and unsurprisingly, there have been some growth spurts. There have been some changes. But it was great to catch up with everyone from Millie Bobby Brown and Noah Schnapp and Finn Wolfhard. Yeah, Gaden Matarzzo. The list goes on and on. So, yeah, a great group, a really fun event. I got to meet the Duffer Brothers for the first time,

and I was really tickled that they seemed to know. and appreciate my work, because I certainly feel the same way about them. And there's a podcast that has been taped regarding Stranger Things that is coming very soon. That's all the teas I'll give you on that. And I've watched, actually, I'm literally watching Stranger Things. I'm taking a break from watching the first seven episodes of Stranger Things to record this intro. I'm on episode seven right now, which I don't think it's supposed to say is super long. All the episodes are super long.

They're all like an hour and 10 at the very least. Episode 7 is an hour and 40 minutes. And all seven episodes of the first part of the season debut May 27th this Friday. And then the final two episodes premiered on July 1st. And the final episode, and I can't remember if it was Ross or Michael, is it Michael Duffer? Matt Duffer, God. Like I said, it's my first time meeting them. Ross or Matt, if you're listening to this, I apologize.

I spoke to one of them. They're identical, or they're nearly identical. It's hard to tell them apart, guys. One of them told me at the party that the last episode is two and a half hours. So settle in. There's a lot of Stranger Things coming, and I've really dug the first six episodes, and I'm sure you guys will. Not that Stranger Things needs a plug from me, but just so you know, that's coming May 27th. It's like a crazy week in pop culture. Obi-Wan is starting very soon, I think, on the same day. Or no, maybe a couple days earlier. No, May 27th. I'm thinking out last. May 27. Same day. First episode of Obi-1 arrives on Disney Plus and top guns in theaters. So, guys, we are in a crazy moment in pop culture with a lot of cool stuff coming.

So that's that. What else can I tell you about? Well, okay, here's something like real personal stuff that I do want to share because it's important for everybody to know. Not for everybody to know my business, but just to say it out loud, I think it's important to share. I finally got COVID recently. Thank goodness it was not. Too debilitating. I am, of course, vaccinated. I say, of course, some people aren't, and I don't know what you guys are thinking, but I am vaccinated, I am boosted, and I've lived very, pretty carefully the last two and a half years, I will say, and it caught up with me recently, and thankfully it wasn't so bad. It was a couple days, I was pretty out of it, cold cough symptoms, but nothing too alarming. And I'm out on the other side.

of it now, which is kind of a relief. I'm sure you guys can relate. A lot of you, probably most of you have had COVID at some point. But in some weird ways, it's like a relief to get it and then to be on the other side of it. Not that we have immunity that long. If you read up on it now, it's like you can contract it who knows how soon. So I'm not exactly going crazy right now. But, you know, it's just important to say that certainly here in New York, COVID is kind of rampant right now it's kind of everywhere um but the good news is look get vaccinated get your booster shot get your two booster shots get whatever you know is recommended at this point because um that's that that is clearly science yes science is telling us that is the big difference so i know you wanted

to hear me on my soapbox but i just wanted to share that on a personal note that uh luckily it came and went pretty quick and um i was able to uh not miss anything too significant in my personal and professional life. But anyway, that's that aspect. And yeah, I guess those are the main things. Let's talk about Emmy Rossum for a second. Okay. So Emmy Rossum, you know her. You know her work. She, of course, I guess our big break would have to be Phantom of the Opera, the big screen adaptation that was directed by the late Joel Schumacher, which was kind of the perfect vehicle for him. And she was fantastic in it. It has just an amazing voice and a great presence on screen clearly. And then followed that up with like a bunch of like Hollywood, kind of like

Hollywood blockbustery kind of things, the day after tomorrow. Actually, that came right before, but there was that. Then came Poseidon after that. And then she spent a bunch of years doing indies and doing shameless on showtime. So since she's left shameless, she has started a family with the great writer and television creator Sam Esmail and is now starring in an executive to producing a limited series called Angelene. Who is Angeline? Well, if you're a Los Angeles resident or if you've been in L.A.

the last 30 years at all, you probably know who Angeline is. For those of you that don't know, it's all good. You can come to this series with no information. Suffice it to say, she's kind of this weird pop culture institution where for years since the 80s,

there have been these billboards plastered all over L.A. advertising a human being, basically. Like there's no, she's not advertising being an actor or a singer or anything, really, except herself, her own celebrity. And she is definitely kind of a proto-celebrity of our time. So a lot of creditor blame, I think, could go to Angeline for kind of setting the template for celebrity for celebrity's sake. So as befits that personality, this limited series is really kind of interesting in that they've decided to treat her story in almost like a Roshaman

style world, like, there are different interpretations of her story from different perspectives. And at the center of it all is this great performance from Emmy, Emmy Rossum. Certainly a big stretch for her. You'll see the look, the sound, the attitude, it is totally unlike anything you've ever seen her do. She's fantastic in it. As you'll hear from this conversation, we really had a great chat. She's a fellow New Yorker.

and, yeah, just, you know, easy to talk to and fun to kind of reminisce about her career. She chose a great comfort movie. We had some laughs about her near superhero casting, not so way back one, but a few years back. That may, maybe it was for the best that she didn't get this one. I'll leave it at that. So, yeah, we cover a lot with this. The new series is Angelene. It has started airing on Peacock.

Check it out. And I think that's all I'll say. I'll let me and Emmy take it away. Remember to review, rate and subscribe to Happy Sick and Fused, spread the good word. We have a new event coming in conjunction with the 92I very soon. I kind of prematurely announced it. If you're on Patreon, you know what I'm talking about. But we should be able to iron out.

There were some logistical issues. So some updated info on that really soon, but it's a really cool person that if you're in New York City. I hope you'll join us. We'll probably have an online component, too. Some more events coming up. We're working on lots of exciting stuff, guys. Okay, enough of my jibber jabber. Here's me and Emmy Rossum jibber jibbering. Uh, enjoy. Emmy Rossum, an official welcome to the happy, sad, confused podcast. It's great to see you. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks, happy to be here. So I'm always happy to have another born and bred New Yorker that's that's turned out semi-sane.

I'm semi. I'm 42% myself. I had it clocked. I don't know where you were at right now. 48. Great. 48. I got 50% on. Yeah. You've got a lot going on. So I honestly appreciate the time.

You've got this great new limited series, Angeline. I believe you're shooting this very cool series that I do want to hit on a little bit, the crowded room. And you got a baby. So congratulations on all. all counts, I feel somewhat guilty stealing you away from all your responsibilities. Are you managing all right for the time being? Yeah. Surprisingly, yeah. I mean, it's, you know, there's, I'm looking at the other room where there's invariably yogurt and peanut butter smeared

on a wall, but it's not over here. Don't pay attention over there. My sense from you, just reading up on you over the years, et cetera, is that you might have some neurotic tendencies. And I'm saying, I say that as a fellow neurotic. Okay. I guess my question is, are you better with too much or too little on your plate? Like, I function better when I'm like at 120% going on. Do you, are you better? Are you, tell me where you're at.

What's your, what's your ideal kind of amount on your plate at one time? I don't know. I think the grass is always greener. Right. But I never wish to have nothing going on. And even if I'm not working, I feel that my brain is all. always busy. Right.

I just have a busy, busy brain. Yeah. Can't quiet the inner demons for good or bad. Talk to me. So let's start an Angeline, because this is, I watched three episodes last night, and it's a fascinating project for many respects. I think I'm also curious, like, how people receive it. Like, there's a certain portion of the population that is very familiar with this kind

of icon. There's actually probably a very large portion that has no idea who this entity is. What does it say about you that this is kind of a passion project? That of all things, the story of Angeline is what Emmy needed to bring to the screen. Well, I think I was very interested in the idea of somebody who was so well known, you know, albeit like in a niche way in Los Angeles. and also, like, she's so famous but also so mysterious. And I think that she, like, rose to power at a time when that was really still possible

and when that kind of mystery was really still valued. And I think she's worked so hard to kind of preserve that mystery intentionally to kind of, Allah the Wizard of Oz, kind of like preserve some, preserve our fairy tale and our fantasy so that she is a little bit like opaque, a little bit like a mirror so that we can see whatever we want to in her. And for me, I really saw a trailblazer, somebody who really recognized the power of her own image and self-promotion way before social media. And was kind of a precursor to her time. She's kind of, you know, has this hyper-feminine, very sexual presentation and in a way it's almost as like a power move,

not really to seduce, but almost so that you underestimate. And that's kind of the power of her, of her. And she's incredibly smart and was a very savvy businesswoman and knew that she had an idea and had this immense belief in herself. And I think that that is kind of some of that must have kind of, have rubbed off on me for me to take four years of my life to try to put this into existence. A bunch of things you just said key off other things I want to mention about like potential

places where you relate or don't relate. I mean, do you feel like you've been underestimated in your life and career when you walk into a room and we all make prejudgments based on physicality, et cetera, gender, et cetera, all this baggage that we all bring for good or for bad? in your career, do you feel like something has preceded you when you walk into a room or the way you present yourself or what? I try not to think too much about, maybe that's a bad thing. I don't think too much about how I'll be received. I don't know. I don't try to control. I know that you can never control what anybody else thinks. Right. So I just trying to know. And for me, I'm certainly not controlling of my image in any way because my whole job is to shape shift.

and to, you know, show aging or not or, you know, age in both directions, which is, I guess, my new favorite thing. So, yeah, I don't know. I think I work better from, I would never want to be overestimated. I would think that would be far, far worse. I mean, my worst fear would be to disappoint, which is often why I am very, very nervous if I'm offered a job and I show up at the table read. I'm one of those actors who shows up at the table read kind of giving the performance. Right, right. I also don't want to get to set and have them be like, whoa, we have to fire you. That's not at all. I would rather audition and have them know. I would rather prove myself. Yep. I'm very, very comfortable with that. And I think that's probably I don't look too

closely at my career. And I'm not, I'm much more instinctual than I am kind of intellectually and like decisive about things um does does any of that fear you mentioned i'm kind of like that oh god they're going to fire me or they're going to see through of me whatever they're going to decide i'm the wrong person does that go away when you're self-generating the project what about on this something like this stuff or like you literally this wouldn't exist without you they can't fire you you are you made this show no no i i i cried with fear every single night of the first 40 nights of the 80. Yeah. It's, it's, this is Everest. This is terrifying. It's terrifying. So what is it? You'd be doing something so, so different than you ever done before to have

created different voices, different physicalities, to be in different bodies, to hope that what you're doing is working, to hope that it will resonate with people, to hope that anyone would care. Well, it's a big swing. It's a big, like, you don't, you don't, you, can't do this at half measure. You can't like, oh, I'm going to do a little, a slight tweak in my voice. I'm going to do, the boobs are going to be totally crazy. You got to, like, it's like the whole thing or nothing, right? Yeah. And I think, yeah, there was, I definitely did not know up from down a lot of the time. I found it hard, I found it hard to even find my own voice. I apologize on behalf of my, of my dog, by the way. This is New York. Probably going to set off mine in the

Oh, no, no. Okay, we'll have an orchestra. Okay, great. So, yeah, go ahead. Sorry, you were saying. I think I was, it was one of those things where it was such a dream and a lot of actors that I know have this, that a thing that they kind of have quietly in their mind that they would love to do. Yeah. And then you get up the courage to raise your hand and say, hey, I have an idea.

And then somebody gives you money to do it. And then you have to do it. and then you have to find the people who and convince right the right artists to come do it with you and tell people why you think it's cool and why it matters and convince everybody else that you that you could do it yeah and then you actually have to go do it so it's almost like I spent so many years in anticipation of that by the time I actually doing it I thought oh wow I have to go do it and that made me really scared I would I would have to imagine also you're jumping and you talk about the company of people bringing this kind of group

together to support this the dream yeah like you're sitting on a table like suddenly Martin Freeman's opposite you and that's got to that's got to be is that well then you're writing the email to explain to Martin Freeman who's not from L.A. who this person is and how it's cool and like what you love about their work and why maybe they should like this is the cool seed in this relationship and how cool it would be to play together and like you know you're just slowly putting the pieces together and then you want to get, you know, Danny Glicker because he does incredible costumes and you want to get Kate Biscoe and Vincent Van Dyke because you've seen what they did on Vice with the prosthetics and you're like, it has to be them. Like, it just has

to be them. Like, how do I get them to think this is cool? Right. It was just like slowly like making friends and and then it was, you know, by the time we had assembled everyone, it was like, oh shit, there's a, there's a real performance now that like I have to put my producer hat away. Totally. Like, now I have to do some acting and not just some acting. And not just some acting, but like more acting than I have ever done, harder acting, more acting. I was going to say because like one of the challenges, and I'm sure it's rewarding in its own way, is like you alluded to this from the outset. She is so many things to different people. And I think one of the genius aspects of the show is the way you've approached it reflects

that kind of Rorschach test, right? So you're not playing one version in a way. You're playing, I don't know, I haven't seen the whole series yet, but you're playing a lot of different perspectives on the same character. So, like, is there one true Angeline you're playing, or in a way are you kind of playing different notes on the instrument that is Angeline, if you follow my drift? Well, in kind of a microcosm, macrocosm, we are always slightly different in different modalities of our life and with different people at different times. And if two people tell you how something went down, they'll give you different anecdotes, different specifics, different timings and they'll remember things hitting them a certain way. So part of the exciting thing about

this, not being a biopic per se, but being kind of like an examination of fame itself and how the more famous you become, the less control you have because you no longer really belong to yourself in a way, especially if you are an icon of this kind of style, if you're a famous for being yourself, but you're also this kind of mysterious figure. Yeah. Her narrative over 50 years has been, has various men and some women have tried to co-opt ownership of that narrative. And the pushpole between like playing the Angelina in their various different versions

and then her kind of self-mythologized version, which at time also belies moments of vulnerability and truth that are sometimes. cloaked an opaque story, but really feel quite true. It was really interesting and challenging to kind of like put together a character over the course of 50 years. That's not just one person, but really a kaleidoscope of different hues on a person. I think it's also, well, there's a different way to do this that a lot of people would, I think, fall into the trap of where it's making fun of her is kind of diminishing what she is and has been because yeah on the surface it's like what is her talent right at first first blush you could say like what is the talent is tell you there

is none that's her talent so that's fascinating in and of itself and very reflective and yes like why this is so timely because this is like our culture you look at the culture of influencers and whatever and they're you know I have this push pull myself I see like influence and and I roll my eyes, like, what are they, like, okay, what are these people? What are they really bringing to the table? Have you, has this experience kind of given you a new perspective on, on influencers and the new kind of fame and what fame is in 2022? Well, what I find most interesting is that there is right now with celebrity. Mostly I find that there's like a compulsion to show everything, to tell everything.

We're inside people's OBGYN appointments, inside their pantries. We're at home with them. We're literally like shaving their legs. Sometimes we're in, like, we're in the shower with them. My fascination with Angeline is the opacity that she creates so that she can, so that we can have those fantasies, almost like an old Hollywood movie star. But in the way that the studio system would give these women new names and new looks and plastic surgery and, you know, a whole narrative and really sculpt their identity and then

fuel them, she was all that. She did that all for herself. She came up with her look. She came up with her sound. She came up with her poses, her movements, the way her voice kind of modulates in this kind of bizarre kind of Betty Boop Marilyn Monroe, like blondie. But also, like, she can equally be like childish, playful and magical. then like a hustler and a business woman.

So she exists in these like modalities that I find super unique and therefore kind of different. Right now it feels like with influencer culture, there's this desire to like link it to shop it, hashtag this, hashtag that. And we're able to attain it so easily in a way, but I don't know. It's she's not, she's just not like that. Yeah. If anything, she, it's a weird, it's a weird contradiction, isn't it?

because she is kind of like, in some ways, that old school Hollywood celebrity, where it was like, you know, Brando couldn't put up with any publicity. Like, all these old school stars are like, no, I'm not going to do anything but the work. And her work, though, is the pursuit of fame. Yeah. Well, what I think is so interesting, too, is fame in America feels like it's the most addictive currency and the most powerful currency. Like I would posit that a famous person could get a table at a restaurant faster than somebody who's wealthy.

And so I think you're seeing that not like Angeline wants a table anywhere other than Denny's, which I absolutely love about her. She's like so down to earth in so many ways. And I just think she's just so cool, just so quirky and unique. But yeah, I think that that kind of fame is really addictive. And I think that when you're getting fame for a hyperc curated image, it has the potential to erode I don't know about her but I assume for other people your lovability of yourself your real self for people that have not made their life into performance art this is a woman who there's no other there isn't an angeline there's no jeans

and she doesn't like drive a Prius to the grocery store she dresses in this yeah kind of presentation to go to gelson's and buy grapes because I've seen it um so it's it's really it's quite fascinating um so what was your own relationship to fame when you started to get a degree of it oh i hated it at first there wasn't a there wasn't like the honeymoon period where it was like this is oh my god i started to get recognized i feel validated from it it rubbed against you the wrong way recall from you what i'm i'm you know we're both from new york and there's something about new york where nobody cares who you are in new york like You are in the crush of people in the subway, and I grew up here.

What I do to relax and to unwind is literally just walk the streets. That's what I do. I love to walk the streets. I don't wear glasses. I don't wear a hat. I walk my dog. I walk my kid. I just walk.

I find it to connect me to the city. And the first time that I was photographed when I wasn't expecting it, I was in Europe, like, outside at a hotel, a press junket, and I was very young. I think it was for promoting the day after tomorrow, and I should have known, but I didn't really, and it certainly wasn't at all, like, the media wasn't the way it is now. Right. This was like, you know, almost 20 years ago. So it was very, very different.

But I remember I exited the hotel in the morning to go for a coffee. There was a paparazzi there, and I didn't know it was going to happen. I wasn't, like, ready for it. And I started crying, and I ran back into the hotel. tell and I read my manager, who's still my manager, Christian, and I said, that can never happen to me ever again. And he was like, where we have to talk. Right? Because understanding that, part of the gift of getting to do this at a certain level is it comes with a tradeoff and people are interested. And so I've had to make peace with that and understand that I am incredibly grateful

to get the opportunities that I do, to work with the people that I do, to tell the stories that I do, that get to touch people, like, I'm not going to complain about the downsides. And you alluded to this earlier, but like, do you, is it empty energy and mental capacity to spend on, like,

cultivating an image on, like, telling people what, trying to convey who you are. And, like, again, the media, an amalgamation of whatever is going to create the Emmy that they want like what what can there it's out of your hands at a certain point or at times have has there been an impulse to kind of be like kind of take the reins back and say like no this is this is actually who I am as opposed to what you're reading on the internet or whatever I feel like I'm always evolving yeah maybe I don't always get it right maybe they don't always get it right

I don't know I try not to I just try not to worry about it too much yeah because in the grand scheme of things it's just not that important right right so let's talk let's talk uh new york city childhoods how you were raised yeah um so raised by a single mom correct um how jewy was the household on a scale of not okay same i'm like the least jewish horowitz you'll ever meet BLTs but only outside the house Christmas Christmas or Passover both or what or definitely Passover were definitely Hanukkah. We had Christmas, but weren't allowed to have a Christmas tree. So there was, I want to say there was a Christmas tent. It was like a, what was like a Peter Pan tent or like an RIE tent? There was some, I remember some kind of tent. And there was,

there was a holiday wreath, but it wasn't, but I've always loved Santa. I loved just the kind of idea of it and I definitely idolized the more kind of waspy traditional elements um we didn't go to a synagogue and I was not um bat mitzvahed but the idea of being Jewish as part of my identity was very strong right culturally yeah yeah right yeah my love of foods my love of kind of humor, kind of the more like melancholy absurdist humor has always really struck a chord with me. And being involved in my community in terms of soup kitchens, giving back, doing Habitat for Humanity, those kinds of like things that are part of Fridays where you do, you know, we would say like, what are, who are we if we lit candles, which

we sometimes did. Like, who are we thinking about tonight? Who needs our prayers? Got it. And I don't think, you know, I believed in any kind of like personified idea of a God. But I, but I believe that, you know, God is within all of us and that it's our responsibility to try to be kind and do good. You obviously came to the arts very early on. Was it just part of the household? Was it part of your mom's life in a significant way? My mom was certainly not a singer, but she was a photographer. So she was artistic. And it was my second grade music teacher that sent me to the opera to audition,

where I did at the Met. And I joined the children's chorus there in second grade. And I just loved it. I loved the costume department. I loved playing pretend. I remember, you know, Franco Zephyrelli would come in and do these productions and Tim Albury would come and do things. And, you know, it was, it was, I was definitely aware

of the kind of competitive nature of the classical arts world. Right. And the need for perfection within the artistry, which I think really stressed me out at a young age. I found it, the idea of, you know, singing Wagner, exactly the way he wanted it sung, you know, was like in my brain at eight years old. And so I think now it's probably with that same level of wanting to at least strive for perfection, but really allowing, I really, I think how I approach work now is with the same amount of kind of intellectual

at first, and then I understand that in order to kind of get past that and really let work, live and breathe, you kind of have to explore the mess. But it's not until I fully really understand something that I can just go. Right. And to appreciate it. And understand there is no such thing as perfection that there's literally, it's impossible. Yeah, of course. And to understand also that you're not a piano and you're not a violin, you are a living, breathing organism and every day is going to be different. Right. That's not to say that. a scene should have a certain shape in theory. But to give yourself the power to, you know,

know that whatever comes out today could be a surprise and a gift. It must have also been thrilling, I would imagine, like any time a kid is like in the adult world and feels like it must feel important and special to be like to please adults and to like be like, oh, I'm doing something that's most kids don't do. there must have been some inherent underlying sense of that, I would imagine. Yeah, but I feel like in New York, I mean, growing up there were... Every other kids doing something cool and amazing, right?

Yeah, it's like... Yeah, I mean, there are kids who are like winning the chess tournament or going to like, you know, tennis nationals. Like, there, of course, there were some kids who were like just doing bake sales, but like, I think there were a lot of really impressive kids. And, you know, I think I knew from a very early age that, like, I, I, I, I, I just, I probably wasn't going to be the first pick for Harvard for like a variety of reasons. And like, that just wasn't where my gut was telling me I wanted to be. Right.

What was, okay, flash forward to like Emmy late teens, what's the goal? What's the, where are you at in your head in terms of like pursuing acting? What kind of acting? What kind of career you're envisioning for yourself? By the time I was late teens, I was already like doing Mystic River. the day after tomorrow. And I was kind of, I just remember like the, just the grind of auditions. Like they were just constant. I remember I would think, okay, so for about every 15 or 20, I do, I'll either get close or get it. And I remember those are, those are, you know, because you're

picky about what kind of speaks to you too. So you're not auditioning every week. You're certainly not auditioning every day. But I remember just wanting to tell a story that was moving to me, whatever that meant, and to work with people that were really exciting. And I liked being on different sets

and I really liked watching. I really liked learning from other actors that I worked with. I remember, you know, when I was doing Mystic, I would just like sit there and watch Sean Penn and try to figure it. figure out how he was doing what he was doing. And then they would remind me like,

you're dead in the scene, so like, close your eyes. You can listen, yeah. Yeah. I mean, that experience, I mean, all the stories of how Clint runs a set are legendary, obviously. And it's just like, is seemingly the most chill man behind a camera, doesn't yell action, has sane hours, like, it's just, did, was that not lost on you even then?

That like, this was, the way the set is being conducted is like, there's something different about this in every respect. Yeah, and I think every director is very different. And I think there are certain people that you work with that are just really special, that just have a different energy. He's like that. There's a director that I'm working with now. Cornell Mundrusco is a little bit like that where people are just on the different

wavelength and whatever, and the way that they and the vibe on set, is really trickles down from them. Clint is just so self-assured and he's worked with the same crew for so many years that it's such a well-oiled machine. And by the time the actors show up on set, they know they're not really going to rehearse and get that many takes. So everyone gets together secretly at night and on weekends and does their own rehearsals. So you can get like the first six takes out of your system.

That's amazing. That's smart. They're kind of, I remember like some like covert rehearsing happening. Let's meet over here. What is about? What are you? planning to do, oh, okay, if you go there, I could go, okay, okay, no, we'll figure it out on the day, but like, this never happened. It feels like a sports team like getting together, like, okay,

we got three shots at this. We got to get ready. We got, like, he's not going to give us more than that. Totally. That's amazing. But I think just the opportunity to be, and I feel similarly now, like, I still always just want to be surrounded by people that love it as much as I do and that really want to focus and have fun. Yeah. I mean, jumping to Phantom, which of course was a huge one for you. And, you know, talking about filmmakers, it feels like the perfect marriage of filmmaker and material, Joel Schumacher, Phantom the Opera. It's like, yep, that's going to work. And indeed, it did. It's also very a unique thing. Like, I don't know, like, were they specifically looking for a quote-unquote unknown?

Again, you had a, you had, they weren't. No. So you didn't think necessarily, I got a shot at this because they're looking for an unknown. You were thinking, oh, they're going to get Anne Hathaway for this and I'm screwed, basically. No, Anne Hathaway literally got the job. Okay. She literally got the job. And then put it to it, and I was the backup choice. Look, second place is not so bad.

No, not at all. But that's so funny. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah, that's so funny. And yeah, you know, it was so fascinating to me because at the screen test, there were like six or seven girls, and they were all more famous than me. They were all older and more famous than me.

So I assumed that I was like the sixth backup. And then when it came time for the last screen test, it was just her and me. And I heard that she was the choice and I was devastated. And then 48 hours later, the phone rang again. And they were like, just kidding. It didn't work out. You got the job. And it was this like, and then we ended up both in London at the same time because she was doing Princess Diaries and I was doing Phantom.

And it, you know, obviously she is a. brilliant actress and went on to, you know, win the Oscar for the musical that she did and just a phenomenal singer. And I just think it doesn't matter who doesn't matter who gets the job first. It doesn't matter if you're, I mean, for me, I was honestly just thrilled. Did you ever get a chance to talk to her about it and years later? I'd be like, oh yeah. Oh, yeah. We saw each other at the hotel in London and we were like, hey. Yeah. It's worked out for both of us. We're okay. Yeah, everybody's, yeah, I think, you know, we both. know that the world is wide enough.

Yeah. And I think that that, that it's only when there is a false sense of scarcity that, that bad choices are made and, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We tend to feel competitive, but I don't. I feel that I, I feel that I really, I, you know, I have my own life in my own lane and we'll see. In the years after that, it's interesting, because you didn't do like seven movies. like in the three years after that.

It seems like looking at it, I was actually surprised. It seemed like a very deliberate, cautious approach to like what your choices were going to be. Was it tough to kind of like for the first time have a little more choice and to suddenly be in some bigger rooms and to kind of figure out like what makes sense for me and what makes sense, you know, you have to be a little...

I mean, there's that calculated part where you want to be in the right kind of movie scene by the right people, I guess. Like, talk to me through like where your head was at then in terms of navigating where to go. Again, I don't think it was at all intentional. And while it was tempting to just go do a slew of movies, I think for me it was always like, when I'm reading this story, does this feel like something I want to go do for six months? Right.

Does this feel like something that's challenging, something that's different? I mean, I did a bunch of indies after that, too, that kind of just spoke to me more. and I did some larger action movies because I really love action movies. I mean, if you're going to do a crazy action movie, you might as well do like something. Like they don't make Poseidon anymore. Like that kind of a thing.

Right. I just think like I want to see that and I want to be underwater with Kurt Russell and I think that that sounds so fun and it's Wolfgang Peterson and he knows how to do that. And I want to be part of that machine to watch what that looks like because they're literally doing it.

It's not CJ. It looks like the most unpleasant shoot I've ever seen. To be honest, it was not a walk in the park. Like you're wet, there's fire, it's like. Yeah, there was pneumonia and broken bones, neither on my side. But it was really a challenge. You know, we had all had to learn how to scuba dive and we were shooting underwater. We were holding our breath for 90 seconds to two minutes sometimes while shooting being directed by underwater megaphones.

It's like, I like things that are on, I like things where I know it's going to be a challenge where I know it's, you know, I have an active brain. So I need to be challenging. So speaking of challenging, that would seem to be the reason to get involved in shameless because that's 180 from anything you've done. Was it mostly about that or was it also like this is like this could be a period of my life? I could settle into a rhythm or was that part of it scary to kind of come up. I honestly didn't see the show. I don't think any of us thought it would get picked up.

Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like Angeline where you start to dip your toe in and you go, okay, well, on the off chance that's something this special could find root and possibility and actually happen, that would be amazing. But why don't I just pretend as if, and it probably won't happen? And then it happened. And in fact, there was a network turnover. Bob Greenblatt, who was running Showtime at the time, was the person who Greenlit the pilot, and then left before they decided if they were picking it up or not. And David Nevins came in. And we were all looking at each other being like, I guess, I mean, who's to say at this point? Because he didn't,

he was responsible for making the pilot. And then he picked it up. And we were, we were so thrilled. And it became clear that the direction that the show started to be written to was more in the direction of the children than in terms of the adult relationships. And it was just really interesting how that kind of started to kind of move in that direction. And, I loved our director, Mark Myelod, who had originated the British show and now does a lot of succession to succession. And I, I just, I thought that story was so important. There really wasn't a lot on TV that was showing real life, that was showing poverty, that was showing, you know, showing poverty without depression. Right. That was showing a real kind of like underdog, funny, absurdist, painful.

It was such an interesting tone. And even though her life looked so much different than mine and, you know, I had a single mom and was an only child, I think every character that I play, I feel some connective tissue with their heart space, even if life doesn't look like mine. Speaking of real life, I can't do a conversation in 2022 without bringing up superhero movies, the most relatable aspect of our lives. According to the always trustee, IMDB, you auditioned for at least one, Fantastic Four. Yes, I did not get it. Spoiler. She didn't get it. Oh, no. Devastated. I remember where I was when I didn't get it. I was with my now husband on a beach somewhere, and I got the call that I didn't get it. And I was pretty sure I didn't get it because I did not feel that the screen test went well.

I just didn't hook into that character at all. Like, I didn't understand the dialogue. Like, I couldn't sell it. I was just like, I don't know what to do with these lines. I can't find the, like, I can't find my in here. I just feel like this is, but I was still absolute. Because, you know, you go through the process of, like, they make a test deal. And, like, you imagine yourself that being your life.

And, like, you know when it's starting, right? And you sign a contract. I know. Before you even do the audition, right? go in and then you go in and then I guess there's like null and void rip it up as soon as she walks out the room like it's like devastating because you've kind of like gotten a little pregnant with the idea of doing this even if you don't think you would be particularly great in it yeah it's a mind fuck it's like okay and you're three i guess i'll get the house and then i'll start to do comic cons and stuff and it'll be

it's almost like surfing zillow and like saving something to your like column that you know you really can't afford right and you're never going to get it but like you're like you're you imagine yourself living there and then you find out that like no you really can't live in that house. The difference is you didn't even want the house to begin with you they screwed you over so much they're like they convinced you that you wanted it. I know but I think I did I mean there's part of me that thinks that that kind of transformation when it works is really fun sure like you know when it is Ironman when it is those things that feel like they feel really unique I think it can really work. Well I know a lot of the cast of that

one. And I think they all have a lot to say about that experience. You might have dodged the, I might have dodged the ball in retrospect. Maybe. Yeah. I asked you for a comfort movie because the last few years we've needed comfort more than ever. You chose a great one, one of my favorites of all time. What did you choose? And give us a little bit of my best friend's wedding. My best friend's wedding. 1997. J. Hogan, Julia Roberts, Dermit Mulroney, Cameron Diaz. So why is this such a source of comfort free? Of course. Hoover, Everett. Well, it's kind of like a musical in a way because there are so many musical moments and musical numbers. And I think it's such an unexpected story, but it feels so grounded

and fresh, they just don't make movies like that anymore. And there's that moment at the midpoint where Rupert Everett has shown up and they've pretended that they're getting married and there's like, is he gay or isn't he gay conversation, which is absolutely absurd and ridiculous. And he is so wonderful in it. And she asks him at the airport, you know, as she's trying to break up this marriage, like, what's going to happen? And he says, he's going to choose her.

You're going to tell him you love him and he's going to choose her and you're going to be okay and you're going to stand by his side at the wedding. And he tells you what's going to happen in the rest of the movie. And then it does, but it's no less fresh. and exciting. And there are just so many wonderful moments when they're chasing each other across the lawn, right? And then she steals the bread van and, you know, he's chasing, chasing Cameron Diaz and she's chasing Dermit Mulroney and she's on the phone with Rupert Everett. And he's like, and who's chasing you? Nobody is chasing you. That's your answer. Is she a bad person? Is that

character a bad human being? Let's get, I mean, Julie Roberts gets box. with a lot because she's the most charming human being on the planet. But when you get right down to it, that character is kind of despicable some of the stuff that she does. But she's aware of that. She says it constantly. She's like, this is so irredeemable. I am a terrible person.

I think that she is confused and I think she feels like she's missed out. And in the end, the movie's really about the love story between her and Rupert. It's really a love story between two friends. Yeah. And in fact, I found out a couple months ago. that that ending where they end up dancing at the end together was a reshoot and they ended up adding that, right? Because I think she's wearing a wig in that scene. Right. And it's this, he's like, I'm coming towards you like I'm a jaguar. It's just so charming. I mean, I cry

watching that movie and I laugh and it's a high wire act too. You mentioned as it's kind of like a musical it's like how does like that like I say a little prayer scene even work it like it shouldn't work like it's so kind of like beyond reality and yet the whole audience gets sucked in you're like come on but then he's singing to her um the way you look tonight on the boat and it's and there's that moment when you're in the dark and he's like you have to say I love you in a moment or the moment passes and then they come out into the light and the light shining and the moment's over and she missed her opportunity. That's the moment. I love that. They're also on cell phones that are literally this large. The Wall Street cell phone on the beach, Michael Douglas, the classic. It's just so

fun. And she's just so, she's just so great. I don't know. I love the whole thing. I'm going to let you go in a minute. But I do want to mention that you're shooting right now a really cool project that I've been fascinated by for years. It's been like they've been trying to make this thing for like 20 years. Joel Schumacher tried to make it. I knew that. That's crazy. Every cool actor's been attached to this.

And now Spider-Man himself, Tom Holland's doing the crowded room. And now, look, I don't, the weird part is, I did the math. You should not be Tom Holland's mom. What's going on here? Was there any trepidation about that of like, eh? Well, the story takes place over many years and playing both 30 and 40. Got it. Okay.

So you're right there. So you can go either way. I'm stretching in both directions. I got you. There's some tape and some stringing in both directions. Do you prefer going younger or older at this point in your career? Well, older has a lot less pressure. But no, I like the elasticity of being able to, I think what's so interesting is to be able to show kind of how trauma manifests in the body over time.

right um you know there's that great book the body keeps the score and i really think about that a lot in terms of the way time can erode and i think it's it's it's really it's fascinating but i absolutely love tom and i'm playing the younger one's mom and his mom much later on so it's fun love it apple tv do i have that right is that one it's great okay well for that maybe later this year or next year but in the mean time. Everybody should check out. Angeline, a limited series. I'm working on my radio man Quibi show. That's going to be a companion piece for next year. Let me know. Send me your notes. No, honestly, it's a special piece of work and very unique as Angeline herself is. And

let's Emmy really do some really astonishing work, some stuff that you've never seen her do before. So congratulations in all respects and your personal life as well. And thanks for taking the time. Thanks. I appreciate it. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh. Goodbye, Summer Movies, Hello, Fall.

I'm Anthony Devaney. And I'm his twin brother, James. We host Raiders of the Lost. podcast, the ultimate movie podcast, and we are ecstatic to break down late summer and early fall releases. We have Leonardo DiCaprio leading a revolution in one battle after another, Timothy Salome playing power ping pong in Marty Supreme. Let's not forget Emma Stone and Yorgos Lanthemos' Bougonia. Dwayne Johnson's coming for that Oscar in The Smashing Machine, Spike Lee and Denzel teaming up again, plus Daniel DeLuis's return from retirement. There will be

plenty of blockbusters to chat about two. Tron Aries looks exceptional, plus Mortal Kombat 2, and Edgar writes, The Running Man starring Glenn Powell. Search for Raiders of the Lost podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube.