Happy Sad Confused - Francis Ford Coppola

Episode Date: September 30, 2024

By the time he was 35, Francis Ford Coppola was the most celebrated filmmaker of his generation with THE GODFATHER films and THE CONVERSATION and every possible award and accolade to his credit. But in the 50 years since he's never stopped experimenting and risking it all for artistic excellence. Here talks to Josh about all of it, from the test screening that changed THE GODFATHER PART II to clashing with Gary Oldman on BRAM STOKER'S DRACULA to his decades in the making MEGALOPOLIS. #happysadconfused #joshhorowitz #francisfordcoppola #megalopolis Subscribe here⁠ to the new Happy Sad Confused clips channel so you don't miss any of the best bits of Josh's conversations! SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! BetterHelp -- Go to BetterHelp.com/HSC for 10%off UPCOMING LIVE EVENTS! Andrew Garfield 10/4 -- tickets here! 10th Anniversary event with David Harbour, Sam Heughan, Jack Quaid, and more! 10/12 -- tickets here! Anna Kendrick 10/22 -- tickets here! Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! To watch episodes of Happy Sad Confused, subscribe to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Josh's youtube channel here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Okay, it's official. We are very much in the final sprint to election day. And face it, between debates, polling releases, even court appearances. It can feel exhausting, even impossible to keep up with. I'm Brad Nilke. I'm the host of Start Here, the Daily Podcast from ABC News. And every morning, my team and I get you caught up on the day's news in a quick, straightforward way that's easy to understand, with just enough context so you can listen, get it, and go on with your day. So, kickstart your morning. Start Smart with Start Here and ABC News because staying informed shouldn't feel overwhelming. Passion project, I hate that phrase. You don't like Passion Project? No, because all directing is a passion project.

It better be a passion project. It is. It is. You may be doing it for money, but when you're down to actually working it, you're doing that of love and passion for the cinema. All directing is a passion project. I think.

Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, Sad, Confused begins now. I'm Josh Horowitz, and today on Happy, Sad, Confused, if you've been watching or listening to this podcast for the last decade, and I have to introduce this man and give the resume of Francis Ford Coppola, I don't know what to say to you. He is a true Maverick, he's a true legend. It is a true honor today to talk about Megalopolis in your career, sir. Thank you so much for the time.

Well, thank you for seeing the film. And in fact, seeing the film twice, you've just told me, which, of course, I feel I find that last night, seeing it really for the first time straight through in IMAX was like a new experience for me. I wasn't planning to stay after that little conversation with the Nero and Spike. I was planning to leave, but I got hooked and I watched the whole movie. These are the great films that demand conversation and thoughts, and this is one of them. That would be good. So you had something about premiere last night.

You've been to many premieres over your career. Is there a most memorable premiere in your career, one where you felt the world weighing down on you or excitement or fear? It was the first time Godfather II was shown in San Francisco, and the audience hated it. But they hated everything about it. They went on and on. They didn't like the acting. They didn't like the music. They didn't like the film.

What movie were they seen? Well, I'll tell you the reason. And I was so depressed and scared that I remember I hid under my bed, you know, because, you know, when you're going through that and you have a picture that isn't being received, well, everyone seems to have the need to talk to you either to console you or to say, oh, they're wrong or they're right, or so I hid. But under the bed, I realized that what was wrong, as you know, Godfather... two was sort of two time periods. It was like a prequel and a sequel of the same. And I realized under the bed that what I had done wrong

is that 10 minutes, which is what the plan always was, to go from one to the other, was too short. And that the movie would risk, the audience would be, was yanked out of the story they were in too soon. And if I could figure out, and the movie was going to open in six, weeks in New York, and there was another preview in San Diego scheduled in four days.

If I could figure out how to make these 10-minute intervals, 20 minutes, and without going into the detail of film mechanics, and at that stage, the sound and everything was mixed, and it was on, it was on two, there's film and full cope, but there were no numbers. So to make, it turned out to do what I wanted to do was 120 change, picture changes. And the editors would have to stay up all night for two nights, three nights, and they did. And they literally ran it through synchronized machines, and there were bed sheets on the floor because it was the actual film that's going to get dirty for the people. And they made these 120 picture changes. And when we showed the same film with this one essential.

adjustment that everything that had been 10 minutes was now 20 minutes, the movie had entirely different reaction. Well, it brings up, that's amazing. It brings up actually a question I was going to ask you later, which is, do you think about an audience? Are you the only audience that matters? No, no, I'm a theater person. The audience is everything.

Yeah. And that's why I love to see a movie with an audience because it's by having the experience with the audience that you have the most wonderful memory of the fact. film. But yeah, I know that was scared. But what was interesting is that after I made that change and the film worked, then they didn't say the acting was bad. So a lot of judgment made in the set. Basically, movies are an illusion. And if you're in on the illusion, if the illusion is working, then things that are even mistakes, big mistakes, don't get noticed. Like I can take you and show you real to reel through Citizen Kane.

And so you, the most outrageous mismatches are showing you where you see the camera and the tripod in the shot. All this stuff that would be attacked. No one attacks because they're in the illusion that it makes. This fugue state that you enter watching a movie. You don't see the flaws. Yeah. So I'm fascinated as many are by the arc of your career.

It is a wholly unique one. If we look at the last four films that you've made in the last 50 and 20 years, Tetro, Youth Without Youth, Twix, and now Megalopolis. Well, you know that those movies, Tetro and stuff, I wasn't working anymore. I had that. It was after John Grisham's The Rainmaker, I decided I was going to quit for 10 years, not be paid, and therefore not be able to work with the collaborators I had, and just sort of try to understand who I was and make little very inexpensive experimental films, which is what Tetral and Youth Without Youth and those were.

Those were more for me to learn about. That was my period. I sometimes describe it as, you know, like Ozu made a lot of films when he was young that were college comedies, but he discovered who he was when he was old and made these beautiful masterpieces, you know, Tokyo Story being one, but in which he had learned his style. And I was curious if I would learn, if I had a style, and that was what I did during the stuff you just mentioned. Those movies you made were all not, they were not really sort of professional movies. I wasn't, no one was paid very much. It was all done in places like Argentina or

Romania where I couldn't even bring some of my colleagues. So I just would work with students this wonderful photographer who eventually did Megalopolis was a film student when I hired him on use without use. I mean, as you well know, this is not the norm. And I guess it's a byproduct of several things, which is you had such an unusual start to the career. By the time you're 35, you are touted as arguably the greatest living filmmaker. You've won every award. Even with all that success when I went, at the high point of my career,

to want to make Apocalypse Now, everyone said no. In other words, the reason I own Apocalypse now is because nobody wanted it. Right. And that was the first time I just borrowed money

to finish the movie. Interest was at 20% in those days. So imagine if, as you say, if you were the hottest director in Hollywood at the time, and they still said no, imagine what they say when you're 85 and you're far from the hottest director around, they also say no. It's fascinating because often I have this conversation with filmmakers and even more so actors about what we call imposter syndrome and self-doubt, no matter what you accomplish throughout a

career. And anybody that's watched your work and has watched some of the significant documentaries about the making of your work starting with George's document. obviously hearts of darkness. I know there's a new one that's been made for the making of this film. You are filled. It seems like you are wrecked throughout your career, no matter how much success you've had with self-doubt. You know, I always felt that my own view of myself that I failed upwards. I mean, I don't know how you do that. Again, I've said recently that I've started to realize that my life is actually something written by Charlie Kaufman. Because the only way I can

make sense of it, is going through his amazing brain. So let's talk a little bit about this amazing film. So I can't think of a better, perhaps a metaphor for a filmmaker than the opening shots of this film of seeing Caesar, a man literally dangling off a building, trying to control and stop time. Which all artists do. Right. Yeah, we, I mean, from the first little painting in a cave, they were making an animal

stop or artists and filmmakers really control time. They go back forward and it's part of the one of the, I mean, I don't know, people are amazed that I wanted to have a character who could stop time. I said, gee, you have characters who fly and who hang on spider webs and you think that's odd. And here's something that all artists do. Right. And you think it's unusual. Well, it's also a motif if you look at your work throughout, whether we're talking about Bram Stokers, Dracula, Mortality, Immortality, Youth Without Youth, Jack. I mean, you are,

you've constantly been wrestling. Rumblefish. Yes, exactly. Rumblefish is, you know, is set against time. Are you conscious of those themes, like when you're writing something and... Yeah, I kind of, you know, I'm aware that I'm trying to, you know, understand life.

You know, it's hard to understand life because if you look at it from the young to the old, you don't understand anything. Sure. But as you go, if you could look at it from the old to the young, which is opposite to the way you're living it, you understand a lot. I think that Danish philosopher said that. Was that Kirkagard?

Sounds right. Yeah, he said you have to try to look at life. You know, and when I do that, which is a juggling act, I mean, I imagine living my life backwards, in other words, where I'm seeing who I was when I was five, seeing my family, seeing my brother, seeing all this stuff, and seeing it in terms of knowing what is to come, it's a different sensation than being a five-year-old that no kid likes and they're bullying and mean to you and you don't know what's going to happen to you.

I made sure to stick through the credits the second time of this because I'm most curious just the things you can find in the credits. And I noticed in the acknowledgments and the special thanks, among the others, you mentioned a few very significant filmmakers, Guillermo Latoro, Steven Soderberg, George Lucas. Are those folks you show the film to? Are those folks... They were people that I either showed the film to or gave me advice or I should have had Barry Levinson in there because he was tremendously up there. Is he in there? I don't think so. Maybe I missed it, but I think, I hope he is. Both he and his son. Oh, yes, Sam. His son is wonderful. Yeah, I

I very admire Barry Levinson. That's another thing is, you know, in America, there's one beautiful thing is that the film directors, you know, usually take a protege or help a new person get started and certainly have nothing but respect for each other for the most part. And somehow it's become this dirty word in recent years, this nepo baby thing, when in fact in any profession, it's kind of like the most wonderful thing to pass on your love or whatever you do to the next generation. When you take your children with you, as I did,

I took them out of school, took them with them. That's all that was to do, but to play with the, you know, Sophia would go and they would make doll clothes for her. And, you know, Chinese jugglers, they use their children to throw them around and be acrobat. So, you know, it's part of the tradition. And we have great, you know, I mean, Dumas son was a writer. And there are many examples, Bach, of course. And you must take as much pride in obviously the body of work,

but like I saw you briefly actually at a party for the last showgirl in Toronto. I was so happy for her because she had, you know, she, I made her first from Palo Alto. Yeah, this is Gia Coppola, of course. Yeah, and she, I thought she did so well. They shot that in 18 days. No, I was very proud of her. No, but just to see, I mean, the Coppola family is very, responsible for so much art and contribution to film.

It's not big, you know, when I, when we came to Hollywood, we had no connections. When I came, I had no connections. I had no money. I didn't have a car. And the reason the family, I think, has this tradition is because in the summer, when all the kids came for the summer, we all did one act plays. Sure. In other words, we did what they call creativity camp.

They hated it. You know, we want to fish. We want to swim. We don't want to do all this creative stuff, but they did. And a lot happened, you know, doing one act plays or making little films or doing little workshops that was fun. Yeah. But it was like summer camp.

It was like going to drama camp. It sounds like, and I apologize, I feel like I'm jumping around all over the place, but everything you say just makes me think of different things. But you talk about creativity camp. I've always heard these amazing. stories about the workshops and the, I guess, the camp kind of atmosphere you create for your actors. Well, that's true because I originally, I come from theater.

And in the movie business, actors are paid the same where they rehearse or shoot. So they say, don't rehearse shoot. Right. And rehearse in between while you're waiting for the setup. But that's not the kind of rehearsal I do. I do a rehearsal while I get them in a space and they can do no wrong in that space. And we don't even talk about the script. We do improvisations, theater games, you know, violas, poland, and, and explore interesting things

that bring about things that would never have happened in a normal. So that's one of the things I did in that 14 years that I took off was I tried to learn more about rehearsing and did. Yeah, I think I heard Aubrey say your favorite is Soundball, is that the one? Soundball is the easy one. It's not my fair. It's a very good game. It's a concentration exercise. Okay. You know, the other thing is that all of those exercises, certainly the ones that Viola Spolin

or her son pushed Paul Sills, have purposes. In other words, soundball is a concentration exercise. So you say, what does that mean? Well, an actor has to be on stage. He has to be ready to be respond to what's, what the line thrown to him is. At the same time, you've got to be aware of it. So he needs a very good sense of concentration.

And this is a game that ultimately they get better and better at it. Then there are hierarchy games. Like in most human relationships, there's always someone high. There's the king and then there's the Duke. So there's a sense of who's the boss and who isn't. And there are a lot of games like that. Or the game you saw in the movie, you know. where Shia takes his hat and throws it down, says, pick up my hat.

I love that. And the other guys say, pick up my hat and pick up my hat. That's a theater game. Right. So, so, so the theater games have purposes. It's not just that you're, I mean, you're having fun, which is good because we're very, we human beings are very creative when we're playing. Yeah.

In fact, we're mainly creative when we're playing. When we're working, we're terrible. Which is we start getting mean. Right. But I believe all the great inventions of humanity happened when we were playing with our kids. Hit pause on whatever you're listening to and hit play on your next adventure. This fall get double points on every qualified stay. Life's the trip.

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so your business can stay unfazed. Learn more at SAP.com slash uncertainty. In that moment, I just remember when I was watching the film the second time, when Shia throws down his hat and says, pick up my hat, I had a flash, and I said, if Godfather were being made today, I think that's, your sunny Corleone, there's Shai Leboff. Oh, well, Shaya is very tough.

But Shia works the same way that Dennis Hopper works. He gets you so zany, crazy with his illogical behavior that you, that the dynamic that's produced produces truth for them, because they create such a situation that there's no way they can play within it without being totally truthful, which is what their objective. What is what Chey is objective? He hates anything that is false, that is done just because you're acting. Right.

This film, as anybody knows, has gone through different iterations over the years. You went through many different table, reads with, like, seemingly every great actor of the last 25 years. I'm very curious because, obviously, you ended up with this amazing, fantastic cast, and Adam Driver is as good as they come.

But from what I gather, Nick Cage, Ryan Gosling, Wiedinard DiCaprio, all read versions of, they all had their version of Caesar at some point. No, mainly that was years ago. So that's when Leo was sort of young. It was more of the Shia character. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. The people I wanted in the old days for the Caesar character was De Niro.

Sure. You know, I mean, anyway, it's always, you know, I mean, these, I've worked with some extraordinary actors, but, you know, when I, when I, when I wanted to make Apocalypse Now, no one wanted to go to the jungle with me, not one. Well, can you blame them? I guess. On paper, it doesn't sound like a great invitation. I guess. So, you said something to the effect about, you don't know the, yeah. I want to ask you a question. I read a review of this movie.

I shouldn't read any reviews, but someone showed me one. And it was all about how terrible all the performances in this movie. And basically, they didn't, like anybody, they didn't like any. And I just wondered what the standard of a good performance, if those performances were bad. I tend to agree. And I think, look, it's in a different key, this movie. This is in a difference.

That's a good thing where you just said, and I never thought that. It's in a different key. That's very important. Now, musically, you're speaking. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it is kind of, you know, you either buy into it or adapt, just as like you were saying about, you know, editing Godfather too and kind of finding that balance. See, this is how I learned from basically the greatest teacher is a student.

So I'm supposedly be telling you some smart stuff, but you're telling me. That's humbly. When I needed to know that if you're in the wrong key, yeah, the acting is, it's just an illusion. so it doesn't work. It's the same performances in Godfather, too, whether you have the 20 minutes or 10. Exactly.

But in one sequence, it works. Oh, that's helpful. Thank you. You're welcome, sir. Have you learned anything from reading your reviews over the years? You're still reading them. I can't believe you shouldn't need to do that. I just read one because I was looking for something else.

And then I was curious. I'm saying, well, if this guy obviously doesn't lie. Also, I very much disagree. I remember when the New York Times started, to have a star rating system for art, I was so mad because I said, art is not sports. Sports that you want the score. I mean, the Dodgers are playing the Yankees. What was the score?

You know, what were all the statistics? But art, you know, I don't get it. I mean, is the Taj Mahal three stars and Notre Dame four stars? Right, depending on the lighting of the day. Yeah. Yeah, but, or what's, and one of the pyramids, because, in other words, art, it doesn't, the scoring doesn't work for art. Well, it gets into the awards conversation, too, obviously, which is a complicated thing. To me, the greatest award I ever got, and one of it was recent, it's when this young man, what's his name, he made All Quiet on the Western Front?

Oh, Edward Berger. He came to see me, he said, I want to meet you. I said, well, and I was told his movie was wonderful. It's very good, concrete. So I said, well, it's my pleasure. He says, you know, I became a film director. I wasn't, but I saw Apocalypse now. That to me is the greatest award to know that I am part of, in a way, his story.

Yeah. And that's a thrill. It's curious, because I'm sure you get that a lot, obviously. Some, you know, but I mean, I take that. I remember I once read a book by Balzac. And in this book, someone said to Bolzak, you know, all the young writers are stealing your stuff. And Bolzac said, that's why I write it. I want them to take it because then I'm part of their work.

And that's how I feel like, you know, people that I met who were very young that saw my film, not only him but before, Alfonso Cuaron. I mean, he said, my God, what an artist. Well, it's all for the continuum. You're part of the lineage, and he will mess onto the next. But that's the greatest award you can get. Do you, because for 50 years, people have been coming up to you saying Godfather one and or two were both are the greatest films ever made. And I know you have a complex, I mean, you are very proud of those films, but I also know

that I'm reading about you, that it's not necessarily maybe the film that you would put as your favorite. Well, I can't think of myself up in that level because I know who came before. and, you know, people talk about what's your 10 favorite movies. You know, we all know you can say, what are your 1,000 greatest film? In the silent era, there were already 50 masterpieces. So when you're dealing with, you know, all of them, and there's so many names of them, the, what's the guy the last,

the guy who said the sound came to, sound had to come, but it was too soon. Oh, I don't know. You know, who made the last laugh and all those, Marnow. Oh, sir, okay. I mean, you have giants like Marnow and Kurosawa and millions of them. Of course, we are on the shoulders of super giants. Right. And it's hard to think of yourself as a big shot or anything when you know what came before and who inspired you.

It's also fascinating to look at kind of in the scheme of the history of film, you and your contemporaries. You think of Lucas and Spielberg, and Spielberg with Jaws, Lucas was Star Wars, you would Godfather, and... And Friedkin, you know, Friedkin was my age. Those guys are all five years younger, so I was the, you know, I was the big brother, but Billy Freakia was my contemporary. But it does feel like somehow the wrong lessons were learned from what you guys did back then, because these were all blockbuster films that touched culture and were great personal pieces of work. on this mythic giant scale, and it seems like, I don't know, cynically speaking, the wrong lessons were learned. We get the bombast and the spectacle without the heart and the personal now. Possibly, you know, I mean, but, but they made, it's like, it's sort of like Capra, going back an earlier generated, he made all these hit pictures.

And yet, if you ever, did you ever see the bitter tier General Yen? I haven't. That is breathtaking. Even compared to these big, it happened one night and all this stuff. But the bitter tea of General Yen, wow, Barbara Stanwick. Yeah. And I read, Capra was sort of a complicate. He wasn't like Billy Wilder was a joyous, friendly guy.

We all went to his 100th birthday. He was very generous. Capra was grouchy. But that movie is a masterpiece, the bitter tea of Cheryl Yen. And even all of them, George and Stephen, I mean, Stephen, I can name eight movies of his that are beyond beautiful, and not the least being the one he made with Christian Bell when he was a kid. It's one of my favorites.

I had me weeping, you know, and many films that Stephen did, and George had American graffiti was so clever what graffiti was. I mean, there's, and Marty, you know, has all these, they all are wonderful. You know, we really are lucky. It's not my cinema. It's the cinema. And we're all in love with it. Do you remember the first time you saw a cut of Star Wars?

Yes, I did. We all saw it together. I think Stephen was there. Well, it was there. It was terrible. Everyone was worried sick for George. Really? Did you have notes?

Did you have, how do you salvage it? Well, the problem was that it wasn't all, you know, was a, it was a first cut. It was, the effects were all old World War II movies with Japanese bomber planes and there was no music and, you know, a movie needs a certain degree of finish to let the illusions start to work. Right. And it didn't have them, but we were worried for him. But, you know, it worked out. It worked out. On the Godfather front, I'm fascinated in a good way that Paramount has never done a sequel, a prequel without you, a reboot.

It is such like an iconic property in this day and age when everything is recycled. It hasn't happened. Have they, like, if they were to come to you and say, we have the godfather, what should we do with this? Or do we leave it alone? Well, the thing is when you say they, there is no Paramount. There's the company that bought Paramount. That is the company that bought Paramount. They don't even know when it comes down to having some archival stuff on God.

They don't know anything about them because the people who owned it now, bought it from the people who owned it, who bought it from the, in other words, the original Paramount that was there when we made it is long gone. Yeah. And that's true of all the studios. Yeah. That's why, and the fact that they've been bought so many times, mean, there's a lot of debt. And so with the movie, you know, I know you heard me say it, but the people who run the big

Hollywood studios are basically their job is to make sure they meet the debt payments. Yes. And if they're not going to meet it, they get fired. Right. Towards the end of Mario Puzza's life, I know there was a brief conversation about doing something together to kind of help him out financially, right? We, we, I was very fond of Mario and I said if they wanted to do a so-called Godfather 4, which we, Mario and I wanted the third Godfather, not to be called Godfather 4, 3, we wanted to be called the death of Michael Corleone. Yeah. But, and they agreed to let me cut it in that version.

But the tragedy is so – the studio system that had been set up had its bad aspects, but it was wonderful, and the resources they had gathered were wonderful. The tragedy is that the people who bought it didn't know what they were buying entirely, so they jettisoned a lot of stuff that they didn't understand that they felt was just a waste of money. but a lot of great important stuff got dumped in the river. During the Volvo Fall Experience event, discover exceptional offers and thoughtful design that leaves plenty of room

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Second. Details and Tickets at Festival of Authors.C.A. Did it ever get, did you ever have a conversation because the wars that DiCaprio was being talked about to play Sunny in that story? You never talked to him. No, Decaptu was very, was young and, you know, not androgynous, but I mean, he was, he's now much more macho guy than he was when he was a kid. Right. So, I mean, he was extraordinary. I, I, I wasn't. He once came and lived with, he just, his father was interested in on the road. And so he was very nice, Leo. So wonderful.

Okay, it's official. We are very much in the final sprint to election day. And face it, between debates, polling releases, even court appearances. It can feel exhausting, even impossible, to keep up with. I'm Brad Milkey. I'm the host of Start Here, the Daily Podcast from ABC News, and every morning my team and I get you caught up on the day's news in a quick, straightforward way that's easy to understand

with just enough context so you can listen, get it, and go on with your day. So, kickstart your morning. Start Smart with Start Here and ABC News, because staying informed shouldn't feel overwhelming. If you'll indulge me on a couple of other films that have meant a lot to me that you've done. Absolutely. I've had the privilege of talking to Gary Oldman a bunch of times in recent years, and Ram's Dracula is just an amazing film for me and many people.

He's very open about he was obviously in a much different, not great place in his life. And I guess from, I mean, he delivers such an amazing performance in that despite all of it. Your recollections of working with him under those circumstances and how great all came out of that kind of friction? Well, what I remember happening is that, I mean, I knew he was exceptional. But what happened is that he shot a lot of stuff, and we did it early, and then there was a sort of period of where he didn't, and what he did is he went on his own to the makeup, Chris Cannon, his name was, and devised another three or four horrible inclinations of Dracula,

different kinds of monsters. So he had made more of these creatures. And of course, they're all rubber suits and they're very hard to be in. And so he sort of made his own life sort of miserable by inventing many of these additional wolfmen or creature. And then he got very upset with having to do them. And a lot of stuff, you know, the problem was we'd be rehearsing,

and just the frustration of rehearsing without all this stuff, he would lose his temper and stuff. But, you know, it's all right to lose your collaborators lose their temper once in a while. But I mean, I knew that he was doing something extraordinary and then the editing sort of, he was incredible art. Here's a random one that probably doesn't come up a lot is Peggy Sue got married, which was your one.

collaboration with Nicholas Cage early in his career. Yeah, actually, he was in the Cotton Club, too. Of course. That's right. Thank you. But he makes a big choice in that film. And I'm wondering for you, when he made that choice, were you like, oh, my God, like, I put all my confidence in you, a family member, and this could go south? Or what was your attitude about it? Well, I mean, what he, I didn't disagree with him.

He had this strange idea. The person he had a lot of conflict with was, was. Kathleen. Because, in other words, he was doing a style of acting that playing with him, in other words, if he did one of these weird lines, what was she supposed to do? Right. You know, in other words. But I sort of thought what he was doing was interesting.

Oh, it's mesmerizing to watch. And she tried to get him fired by going straight to Ray Stark or someone. Right. And I said, no, it's interesting what he's doing. Well, I guess that's what we're talking about, that, you know, acting in a certain key, if one actor is in one key and one's in a different one. You know, you've given me a good phrase because I know enough about music. No, I don't know. But, I mean, if I, if we're doing, if we're in B flat and there in G minor, there's a problem.

That's a very helpful observation. Thank you. Of course. I hear you talk a lot about, you know, the live theater theatrical experience and, you know, not to ruin anything, but there is a. component of that in this film of breaking the fourth wall. You know, where did that expression come from? I hear that all the time. Live theater or what? Breaking the fourth wall? Does that mean like when you have an entrance through the audience and you walk in or you

write an exit? Because we did that kind of stuff all the time, obviously. Is that breaking the fourth wall? I guess so? I don't know where that comes up. I had to look it up. I sort of like passion project. I hate that phrase. You don't like passion project? No, because all directing is a passion project. It is. It is. You know, you may be doing it for money, but when you're down to actually working at, you're doing that of love and passion for the cinema. Yeah. All directing is a passion project, I think. One would hope if you're doing it right. Would you want food cooked by someone who wasn't excited about cooking? Well, it must be the worst feeling in a world for an actor or filmmaker to be in

month two or six of a production and to lose and to not feel that and to have to go for the motions. and not care and he only is doing it because he think he's going to make some money to pay his ex-wife. I mean, cinema art is, well, you know my feeling, I told these folks, we're not work here. We should all be playing. That's right. Because playing is a much more creative mode than work. I guarantee this is not work for me to talk to you for 45 minutes. So I have fun, you know.

I told them I believe all the great inventions of humanity happened when they were playing with their kids. the wheel and movable type and everything. But no, we're mostly creative when we're playing, and that's what they call it a play. So what do you think the theatrical experience looks like decades from now? What would you hope? How does it innovate? I've ever seen my book about live cinema? I haven't. I woke it up. I should get that for you. I appreciate it. I wrote a book of live cinema and a technique which lays out my film I hope to make next, which is called Distant Vision, which is basically, by live cinema is, you ever see, I mean, sometimes on criteria it exists, you ever see a John Frankenheimer live Playhouse 9D called The Comedians, Sorry, Mickey Rooney.

I haven't seen that particular one, but I've seen it's a masterpiece. Really, okay. It is unbelievable because it's live. I mean, they literally go three, two, one, and do it. Yeah. And the acting is great. The imagery is cinema. It's not television. And it all is live. And it's a performance with like people like Janice Rule and Mel Tormay and wonder. It's breathtaking.

See it if you can. I will. And my book is called live cinema and his techniques. And it's been translated and everything. And it's about what I dream of ending my career with it, which is to do a work that looks and feels like a movie. so it's lit and it's frame to frame. It's not shot to shot, if you know what I mean. Looks like a storyboard cut together, but it's done live.

Well, that's something, generally speaking, I took away from watching Megalopolis, is this is not a cynical man. This is an optimist, a humanist, someone that sees the potential and hope for cinema, for mankind. Definitely. I mean, do you have children?

I don't. I see a wedding ring. I do. We've got a beautiful dog. But you know kids I do So play with them They're fun

And they're brilliant Yeah Dogs are nice too They are What do you think The most Overrated value or skill Is in a director

And what's the most underrated? I think the biggest misunderstanding of this thing I've heard about Well he got a great performance Out of them You don't get a great performance The actor does the performance

I mean Shouldn't have been Diminished What an achievement that is the director is like someone who just gives a good note once in a while or helps them. It's like a coach, you know, and I tell the French Connection story that Gene Hackman told me about how he was doing French Connection. He had a funny hat and was talking funny. He said, I had no idea what I was doing. And one morning I went to the coffee and I took a donut. I

adapted it in the coffee. I took a bite and threw it on the ground. And a voice said, that's him. And it was Billy Friedkin. And he said, that's all I needed. I knew who I was for the rest of the world. That's what a director does. You know, what an actor does is extraordinary because he is the instrument. It's not me playing the saxophone. I am the saxophone.

It's very difficult what they do. And they're also, among all the people who have become directors, it's from the ranks of actors that the best directors have by far. And more than writers and more than editors, editors. It's, it's, our greatest directors were formerly, I mean, you know, Lubitsch and Marnell, all those guys, all the silent guys were all actors. And, uh, you know, of course, we know so many English directors and have you ever given a line reading to an actor? Is that a faux pop? Never. I don't think I've

ever. Yeah. There's so many other ways to get them, I mean, there are other ways of getting them do what you want. I use props very well. That's how I, I never told, Marlin was interesting. He was an actor. He never wanted to have any acting talk, but he liked it when you said, more angry, less angry. But I would just bring props.

I would just put something in his hands. I knew he would do something with it. When you look back at the many films you've made, when were you happiest on set? What was your happiest experience making a film, you think? Like, what he put on the top? I sort of. Goff of the Two was a good experience because there was no nonsense of stupidity.

Right. But you get a lot of when the two, when production fell out, you know, when the legal and the financial and the Creanquiv. But I was sort of happy during Tucker. I have to say, I watched it again this past week. It was maybe one of the first ones of yours I saw. I'd hit me at the right age. I spoke to Jeff Bridges about a week ago. I adore that movie.

He was a wonderful person to work with. Yeah. It's funny. Like, there's a scene in that between Martin Wando and Jeff Bridges, where it turns into like kind of a comedic moment, but he talks about his mother always warning him not to catch other people's dreams. Yeah, that's the nice scene. Marty Lando was very good in that.

I mean, if you'll forgive me in a very earnest way, I feel like that's like us watching your films. We've, like, caught your passion and your obsession and your love. You know how I feel that. I feel we're all one family, you're my cousin, and you've been given extraordinary gifts, and I want your gifts to come out and change the world because there's nothing we can't solve. You said something to the effect of when you make a movie, you don't know, you're asking the question, you don't know the answer to until you make it.

I said that a long time ago, but it's still sort of true. What that means is that if there's something in you that's unresolved and you use that to make a more, movie, the successful achievement of that movie is that somehow that question is answered or is dealt with. Yeah. And I said that a very long time ago, I was sort of, I was right. So what was the question you were wrestling with here? There are a lot of questions that feels like at this week.

Well, the question I meant it is why is it that this genius species has a world in which children are being killed and people are being killed, why aren't we working together to save this beautiful earth. We have the gifts. I mean, you know, even the Russians in Ukraine, I mean, as you know, Russians are very advanced in the field of nuclear fusion. Tokomak, you know about that. You know about physics? Well, they are. And what is this absurdity of, well, we ought to be working together to make the world beautiful for the next generation. We're perpetuating this old, tired notion of basically

keeping the world unhappy because unhappy people are very good customers. And what is the answer you've cut? So that's the answer? That's that people probably buy, my misery people. The answer is that that basically trend is not destiny and that we

can solve any problem put in front of us. That's the that we are a species of genius. And, you know, it's time to talk about the future and come to answers that we're capable of doing. So I'm happy to hear this, there are more films to come. What is... I have a question for you.

Yeah. Are you going to make a film? I don't know. I so enjoy talking to people about it. I think they're better. Do you think you might like to do it? My brother's a filmmaker, so I feel like I'm covering the other side. But, you know, there's a lot of years on.

You know, there's a lot of years left. Who knows? How old are you, my ask? I'm 48. Well, you're young. Well, why not? If the passion strikes, if the right story strikes. It's fun.

I appreciate that, sir. This is, honestly, this is one of those conversations I've looked forward to for years. I've been pestering your folks for years. I'm so happy it came now about this film. And my gosh, this more than lived up to everything I hoped it would be. So thank you, thank you for Megalopolis and everything you've contributed to film. Thank you for your interest and for what I learned from you, which was not nothing. Thank you.

Good luck. Thanks. Thanks, everybody. Appreciate you. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh.

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