Happy Sad Confused - Francis Lawrence

Episode Date: February 6, 2018

Whether you know it or not, you've probably seen most of Francis Lawrence's films and likely many of his iconic music videos (he's helmed classics for the likes of Britney Spears, Janet Jackson, and Beyonce). Lawrence isn't a bombastic personality but don't let his amiable manner fool you, he's at the top of his craft, working with huge budgets, beloved franchises, and ginormous movie stars. Look no further than "Red Sparrow", the spy thriller coming out March 2nd that stars Jennifer Lawrence (this marks Francis' 4th consecutive collaboration with the Oscar winner). In this visit to "Happy Sad Confused", Lawrence talks about his unique creative partnership with Jennifer, how she put herself through the ringer for their latest film, and what it was like to helm the last three installments of "The Hunger Games" saga. Plus, Lawrence reflects on his regrets surrounding "Constantine" and "I Am Legend", whether there's another comic book film in him, and why he's excited about potentially directing a "Battlestar Galactica" film.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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or go to explorevolvo.com. You may not realize it, but every minute of every day, you're enjoying your First Amendment freedoms. You can wear what you want, give out your opinion for free, even if it's unpopular. Listen to your playlist. You can put a sign out on your front lawn that says, vote for Bigfoot, someone you can believe in. Pray to the God of your choice, or don't. You have the right to hang with a posse that thinks like you do. Tell the government what you think about its policies.

They're the freedoms that let you be you, and they're all brought. Brought to you by the First Amendment. Moving like a river in my soul. Learn more at freedomforum.org. Today on Happy, Sad, Confused, Francis Lawrence on the Hunger Games, comic with movies, and reuniting with Jennifer Warrens for Red Sparrow. Hey, guys, I'm Josh Horowitz. Welcome to the podcast.

What are you smiling at, Sammy? I can see you already have a criticism. Because right in the middle of that passionate intro, you got an email and a little ding went off on your computer and I'm going to wear, I'm going to leave it in because I was going to say leave it in and I want to know if they heard it. I'm not perfect guys. I left my computer open and yeah, I'm popular. I get emails occasionally. So I was waiting to see if you were going to restart it, but you were, you didn't even, you were so in the zone. You know how I get in the P zone, the podcast zone. Can you do me a favor one time? Press record before you're ready. so everyone can hear you practicing that first line. I don't, please stop reading the illusion. It comes spontaneously.

It's like saying it a couple times in a row, making sure there's a good alliteration in there. I want everyone to hear that. You're upsetting me because here's the thing. You're really gripping that microphone right now. Because that's, what that's telling the audience is that what you just heard is the best version of me doing an introduction, which is really not a good introduction. I hate doing that, okay? Let's just be open. Do you have to?

What should I just do? like, Hi, Sammy. Yeah. Hey, friends out there, let us know what you think of Josh's opening lines. And if you think it's helpful to you, if it's like a little table of contents for you. Okay. Or if it's something that, you know, is something that he puts an incredible amount of work into that. That's not true. Nobody's. I don't like people. I don't like opening this discussion because it's going to be a lot of negativity. Send it to me. Send them to me. Sammy Heller.

Sammy Heller. Yeah. Speaking of which, we got a, we got a nice tweet. tweet you wanted to acknowledge, right? I want to give a shout out to Nicky Deleo. Oh, my God. Are you having a stroke? Well, I'm Jewish. This isn't a Jewish last name, so I'm having trouble with it. Don't assume things. At Nicky

DeLeo, N-I-K-K-I-D-A-L-E-O. Okay. Who said to us, Josh, that HappySad Confused is the only thing that makes her daily commute to the Taconic State Parkway bearable. Oh, Nikki. Nikki, thank you. You made our day. That's very sweet. It begs a number of questions, though. We only do usually one podcast a week. So are you listening to the same podcast episode like every, every day, Nikki?

No, she said she's going back from to the beginning and listening to all of them. Oh. 200 hours of sheer bliss awaiting you on the Taconic. That's right. 200 hours, give or take. Some are longer, some are shorter. This podcast dedication is going out to Nikki on the Taconic. Nicky and as always, Dave Franco and Alice in Brie, we know you're out there. Just want to give you guys a shout out. We didn't forget about you. Still waiting for your review. Yeah, anytime now.

Speaking of reviews, I'm not going to, I share with you something that's not going to be on this podcast. I'm going to try to incentivize you guys for writing some nice reviews. Just let me put it this way. If you wrote a recent review, you might get a nice, fun little treat on an upcoming episode. episode courtesy of a celebrity. Yeah, someone much more exciting than you or I, reading the reviews. Yeah.

Okay, now you ruin the whole thing. You ruined the whole thing. You just said what it was. I didn't say what they were reading reviews of. Evening Yelp reviews. Right, exactly. Anyway, this week's episode, today's episode, is with a filmmaker by the name of Francis Lawrence.

Francis Lawrence is a, he's one of these guys that, you know, he is at the top of the totem pole in terms of like big budget blockbuster movies. I mean, you look at his resume. He made his feature debut on Constantine, like a $100 million movie starring Kianu Reeves. Then he did I Am Legend. He did Waterford Elephants with our guy Robert Pattinson.

Oh my God, all my favorite people. There you go. And then of course directed three, the last three, installments of the Hunger Game series, Catching Fire and Mockingjay Part 1 and 2. So he's one of these filmmakers that I've been able to talk to on virtually every project over the years.

And he is the sweetest man. He is like, someone that, like, has to, you know, deal with $150 million dollars budgets and, like, ginormous movie stars should not be this chill

and, well, adjust as a human being. There's something wrong with him. There's a darkness in there somewhere. I'm afraid I did not find it in this podcast episode. He still is super sweet and very thoughtful. His new movie opening on March 2nd, this is a nice little preview episode. Got a couple weeks before the movie comes out.

Don't worry. no real spoilers in the episode, except to talk about kind of the premise of the movie. The movie is Red Sparrow. As I said, it reunites Francis with Jennifer Lawrence. No relation. No relation, thank you. And she stars, it's kind of like a spy thriller, basically. She stars as like a prima valerina who suffers an accident that happens very early on and then becomes a part of this sparrow program where she's basically using like sex to kind of like get what, get information out of people.

it's a really it's a hard-ar movie this is like a this is this is this is like they're adult themes there's violence there's sex there's nudity there's unpleasant sex and she's like I'm going to do mother and then Red Sparrow this is what I just said to Francis like what is going on I we need to talk to Jen we got it to get her back in here hopefully that will happen soon but yeah so that is Francis's new movie remember to check out Red Sparrow in a couple weeks we talk at length about that but about a great number of other things, including, of course, the Hunger Games movies. And, yeah, also, Francis, do you know this?

He directed some of the most iconic music videos that you probably love. What? Like, all the big, like, Britney Spears videos back in the day. Did, like, Destiny's Child videos, Jan Jackson videos. That's what I'm talking about. Yeah, so he really... Did your eyes, like, glaze over when he started talking about music videos? No, no, no.

But that's where he really made, like, his name in the industry and then moved on into the big, ginormous movies. So we talk about that, but we also talk about his thoughts on the comic book movies, Star Wars movies, perhaps his interest in directing a Battlestar Galactica movie, which I find very intriguing as a big old nerd. Ew, that's cool. I kept that voice on the inside for the conversation. Yeah, Battlestar Galactica movie.

You can't wait. All right. Come on. I'm serious. That was my real voice. I'm sure a lot of audience members out there are Battlestar Galactica fans. By the way, I probably would be obsessed with it. Yeah.

I'm the... Look, I contain multitudes. I can like the Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, and I can like Battlestar Galactica. Well, aren't you just... I'm more evolved, basically. Yeah. You're so cultured. Vote on Twitter, and who's more evolved?

Press one for Josh, two for Sammy. I've watched 12 TV shows in the last week, so it's going to be me. Wait, 12 different TV shows or 12 episodes of a TV show? No, that was an exaggeration. I've watched three full TV shows in the last. Let's do it very quickly, because we've got to get to the main event. But go ahead. Schitt's Creek Catastrophe, two seasons of six feet under.

Six feet under? What precipitated that? He's got a new show, by the way. Alan Ball has a new show on HBO coming. It was that. I went into an Allen Ball K-hole, and I was like, you know what? I never really did. Sounds dirty.

It was great. I never really did six feet under. Pretty good show. Yeah. Okay. I'm like, yeah. Richard Jenkins. You can revisit the Richard Jenkins podcast.

And he's such a different character. You know, I'm used to the stepbrothers, Richard Jenkins. That's my Richard Jenkins, so. He's very upset to hear that, by the way. It's been really great. All to say, I'm feeling very sophisticated these days. Yeah, anybody that watches Schitts Creek. That's right.

That's right. I haven't watched it. No dig on Schitts Creek. I'm sure it's delightful. It's laugh out loud, funny. Okay. I'll put it on my list. My list is super long, though.

I'm in the middle of Mindhunter right now. I did that months ago. Okay. Well, all right. Here is today's episode, Francis Lawrence. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe. And perhaps your review will be read by a super famous, cool celebrity. That's not Sammy or me.

Yeah, that's, yeah. Please enjoy this conversation with Francis Lawrence. Nikki, drive safe. On the taconic. Mr. Francis Lawrence, welcome to my office. It's good to see you, man. It's good to see your little man cave here. Yeah, what do you think?

Does this reflect the Josh Arroywood's? You've talked to a dozen times over the years? I'd say it does a little bit, yeah? Oh, yeah, I was going to say there's no alcohol, but I see alcohol now. Of course there's alcohol. I'm totally inebriated right now. No, not at all. I have to say, though, I was a little jealous that I didn't get offered a shot at the last Mockingjee premiere, but everybody else did.

That's, oh, no. I hold a little bit of a grudge, just so you know. We'll do shots at the end of this podcast, okay? Congrats on the new film. We're going to cover a lot, but the new film we should mention is Red Sparrow. stars our buddy, Ms. Jennifer Lawrence, Joel Edgerton. You've got quite a cast actually in this. Yeah, it's a great cast.

A good ensemble. So, well, first, let's just catch up sort of like where we're at in our lives and times right now. Have you caught up on your screeners or have you come out of like the Red Sparrow Cave to kind of enjoy 2017-best? Yeah, we finished the movie a couple of weeks ago, so I have had a chance to watch some of the screeners, which has been good. Yeah, there's been some good movies this year. I still have a few more to catch up on. But, yeah, it's been nice. Anything strike your fancy?

Anything that blew you away? This year, for me, the top two are Phantom Thread in Dunkirk. I think those were definitely my sort of standout films of the year. Yeah, I could go on at length about both. I mean, Phantom Thread, I feel like it really hit me the second time I saw it, actually. Like, I think it's, yeah, I don't even know what to say about it. It's like, what has my shorthand been? I feel like it's like Punch Drunk Club meets like a Kirby Enthusiasm episode.

It's kind of plays... Wow, curfier enthusiasm, interesting. Do you think it plays a little bit as a black comedy? Oh, for sure, it plays. There is a little bit of dark comedy in there. Absolutely. And kind of tragic romance. But I just thought it was so beautifully made.

I'm such a huge fan of Paul's movies. That Johnny Greenwood score is amazing. Yeah, the score is just amazing. The photography is beautiful. I think the attention to detail in terms of costumes and the people working in the building. and just the era, all of it I loved. And it doesn't surprise me. I've talked to many filmmakers on this podcast.

I've had Christopher Nolan here actually for Dunkirk. And, yeah, I mean, that film is just a staggering achievement in what he's, you know, the eventizing of movies in a positive way, which is something we can talk to about the kind of stuff that you've made, stuff that demands to be seen on a big screen. And he's using that canvas just as well as any filmmaker out there. Yeah, I think he's kind of doing it better than any. everybody else um you know it was i think one of the things that i really enjoyed most about dunkirk was that it was just it's such a visual movie and i don't mean visual for style's sake but it's like

really telling a story visually yeah and i mean it's almost a silent film and it's just staggering it's it's emotional and it's epic and scope and um it's it's sort of a moment in history i didn't know that much about so to be able to learn something at the same time uh but just beautifully, beautifully done. And also another great score. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Hans Zimmer, of course, his regular guy. Yeah, I mean, I feel like, yeah, I always can go back and forth. Like, one of my favorites of actually this past year, which sadly didn't get a lot of Oscar level was Molly's game, which, like, I mean, I love that Sork and dialogue, etc. But then I think to things like Dunkirk and I think, you know, a film that's been referenced many times on

this podcast is Matt Max Fury Road. Yeah. Which is another one I would put in that category where, like, what did that? I don't think he even had a script, right? Like, and infamously he had like hundreds of pages of basically at storyboards, yeah, yeah. Fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's also one that was meant to be seen on the big screen. I think we saw that a fair amount of us from the Hunger Games saw that in Atlanta and one of those sort of premier digital 3D theaters

and downtown Atlanta somewhere and it was a fantastic experience. You know, I don't think it translates quite as well to the small screen. No. A little bit like Gravity. Gravity is another one of those movies that was unbelievable on the big screen and not quite as great when I went to go show my family on the small screen especially on that one i would say i have actually have revisited mad max i think you can still suck you in but gravity you know for it was the term that was used i remember at the time and i and i agree it was kind of it kind of was a ride it kind of felt like it's it's like you know to use the cliche terms it was a journey it was a ride but it was

that by the end you were you felt like this emotional catharsis and like you physically felt exhausted yeah but but brilliant filmmaking um so where are you at right now you seem relaxed and happy because has your film been like put to bed for a while have you been kind of sitting on this for a bit no i mean uh just for a couple of weeks i mean we finished it uh a couple of weeks ago but you know it was a it was a fun movie to make yeah so so to talk to me because the last time we spoke was probably uh mock and jay part two yeah right um it's been a few years but probably three year gap right which is appropriate for a filmmaker generally two or three i think just over two because it was november of oh so we're barely over two or we're in the 18th

16 maybe. Okay. So you didn't take much time off, it sounds like. I mean, you know, no. I mean, this was, I was, I started developing this. I think we were promoting, uh, mocking J one. I remember having the conversation with the president of the studio after I had read the book and sort of pitched her my take very quickly over the phone. I was standing in the lobby of the hard rock in San Diego at Comic-Con. Amazing. For mocking jay. Well, actually, that was mocking J two, maybe. Okay. I think it was for Milwaukee J2. We did that. So July of that year, I pitched her my take, and we started developing it. And it came, and I started talking to Jen about it immediately, and it came together really quickly. So it's, um, there's a lot to talk about in this film. It's kind of a, I wouldn't say surprising in some ways, but it's, um, probably your, is it your first R rated film since, uh, was Constantine? Constantine was R, but it was not intended to be an R. Right. That was, yeah, that could have gone either way. This one, that was a PG-13 movie that got an R rating.

right this is that this is a deservedly R rated movie yeah this is an adult spy thriller for lack of I mean I don't know is that the genre is that the classification we put it yes yes yes so what's um is that kind of like a genre that you have always gravitated towards something that you not necessarily I mean I'm I'm a fan of the genre it was I didn't sort of decide one day oh next I want to do a spy a spy film the next day next but it was definitely I mean there's been some great spy movies made. I think that's actually one of the tricks with getting involved in a very specific genre. I mean, most of my movies have been kind of mashups, which makes it a little easier

in a sense. And you can avoid cliches, I think, in a much easier way. When you get into specific genre, as this is, I think you kind of have to fight those things as you progress. And it's interesting because I'm watching it. I just watched it yesterday. I think I still would call it a mashup in some ways i mean like the first like half hour i felt like i was watching like a little black swan a brian de palma movie um and then it kind of uh it swerves into you sort of get a handle on what the narrative's going to be but it kind of plunges you into it's i mean it's got a great kind of like opening without ruining anything kind of like setting up her as this prima ballerina right um but i mean are you the kind of filmmaker like what are your your references that you bring up with

your collaborators when you're approaching a film. Are you referencing other films? Are you referencing arts or what? On this, no, I will definitely say I think that there is, I mean, with the ballet in it, I mean, I think people will sort of parallel a little bit of Black Swan, although it has nothing to do with Black Swan. Sure. I think there definitely is, I'm influenced by DiPama, so I think that there definitely would be some DePalma in there. I think for this one, sometimes I reference films. I mean, when we did Catching Fire, we looked at a lot of Vietnam, you know, war stories and things like that, sort of various things. And that definitely influenced a lot of the arena and that in this, a lot of it was photography. So getting together with my production designer

as we started to figure out what the world was going to look like and making sure that we presented in a way that's not as expected. Because I think when you think of these kind of socialist Russian stories, you think just sort of gray. Right. And the movie's actually quite, colorful and I was sort of really happy once we dove into the research to find that there's quite a lot of color available in that part of the world and yeah and we utilize that but a lot of the references for us was was photography and even sort of you know Russian propaganda yeah paintings and posters sort of you know post World War II it's also interesting like it honestly kind of took me a little while to figure out like what time period it was set yeah is that intentional in terms of like it in some ways it has a very kind of timeless uh quality but it's it's um well you tell me what was the approach in terms of like there's no title card saying what year it is um how much thought process was put into that well that was part of the sort of the world creation i mean i definitely want it to feel as timeless as possible um you know one of my biggest pet peeves is when there's a movie you love and you revisit it and you see just how dated it is um you know

it's like i love the terminator you look at the terminator now there's just so much kind of dated material and look and fashion and every time you watch wall street and you see like Michael, Douglas, with that giant phone on the beach. You're like, okay. Exactly. So, you know, I definitely wanted a timeless quality to it. But I think that the, you know, the sort of locations that we ended up gravitating toward in the story leaned us into what could be considered a period story. You know, there's just a lot of different kinds of architecture in both Moscow and Budapest where the movie's set.

And, you know, I was interested in showing like sort of multiple. facets of it. So this kind of, you know, mid-range kind of government housing and a lot of socialist architecture, but some of the really beautiful ornate classical stuff. A few elements of the newer things. But we leaned a little more heavily into the sort of 60s socialist architecture. Yeah. And I think that leans into a bit of a period look, although it is present day. It's funny. Also, in some ways, like the biggest giveaway nowadays, like the time period it's set and it's like, wait, that's not a flash drive. That's the, what, the old five and a quarter, or the three and a half inch discs.

I'm like, okay, so now I have a ballpark. I know where I'm at. Yes. Yeah, but you know, it's interesting. The discs, and this is tricky, and we actually debated about how much exposition do we put in with the discs, but we discovered that the CIA uses disks like that. Yeah, they don't want information being passed around on thumb drives

because it's too easy to conceal. So they tend to use bigger, bulkier things that aren't as easy to sort of get in and out. Fascinating. So, okay, so this is going to be like the, I'm sure the junkie question you're going to get a lot. like what is the germ of like there is you've already kind of alluded to some of the the pros and the exciting elements of this but what was sort of the thing that got you so excited about i think first off i read the book and i was i was really struck by the story of uh jens character dominica um i think very rarely in spy movies and i'm not going to say never but very rarely do you find a personal story they tend to be political stories or they tend to be mission stories or they tend to to be sort of gadget stories and tech stories and and things like that, right? And what I really liked about this, and I tend to like stories about lonely, isolated characters

on very lonely kind of journeys, and characters that are sort of put into dilemmas that we as an audience can imagine being in their shoes. Like, what would I do if I was in that person's shoes? I think it's part why Katness works in The Hunger Games and partly why I think this story works. And so the idea of a young woman who's a prima ballerina and has this horrible injury and has an invalid mother and has this kind of creepy uncle

that works for the modern version of the KGB that sort of says, listen, you help me, I help you. And gets her sucked into the world of espionage and doing horrible things that she doesn't want to be doing. That was intriguing to me. Yeah. I can see a lot of pros, not necessarily cons, but challenging material for Jen to, to, I mean, my God, between this and mother, she's just has a, I don't know, she's putting herself through the ringer this past year. I mean, this, this one is, you know, physically challenging. I mean, you know, there's, you know, it's exposing in every way in terms of nudity and all that.

But beyond that, we're talking about some really intense psychological and physical stuff she has to go through in this torture, rape, et cetera. Like, as dark as it gets. But, I mean, I'm curious, like, what you've found. I mean, the Jen you met at first was probably, what, she was probably 21 or 22. she's probably he's 20 20 even okay yeah so she's now like 26 27 something like that is she in a different place that you feel is she sort of like has she matured in some ways or that yeah or she's ready for something yeah absolutely i mean you know i thought of jenn immediately when i read this i thought she could do it i thought it would be fun to do it with her i like working with her

but also i think she's a great actress uh i thought she could look russian but i have to say that as i started to develop it there was something that was sort of stuck in the back of my head. And I remember because I've been working with her since she was about 20 years old, she used to say she would never do a movie with nudity or explicit sexuality. And so I kept kind of, you know, I would sort of dull little pieces of information to her over time when we're on press junkets and when I'd see her. And so I was trying to sort of ease her into it. But I was really kind of panicked that she just wouldn't want to do it. But she was just in a completely different place at 26 years old than she was at 21 when she said these things to me. I mean,

you know, her life had completely changed. Her relationships were completely different. You know, that sort of very invasive hack of hers was, you know, that really changed her and changed her perception on things. And so she was, you know, and not without a lot of thought and conversation with me about it, but she was definitely game to sort of push things in this movie. I mean, what do you recall of some of the kind of shooting, again, we don't have to get specifics about the scenes, but there are a number of very intense scenes. Actually, most scenes in the film are pretty intense, but you know what I'm talking about. Like, what do you recall, like, of atmosphere, of working with her? Like, what does she get like?

I mean, because, you know, I'm used to experience, you know, goofy Jen. She's usually in a very good mood and pretty silly around me and press generally. Is it a different Jennifer on the day of those kinds of scenes? or she's offsetting it with? No, well, you know, I mean, we put a lot of work in leading up to those kinds of scenes because we knew what the deal was. So when she said yes to the movie, I came over to her house and I said, listen, we have to have a very frank conversation about what these scenes are going to be. And we have to start the communication now about the tone of the scenes, what the approach and the objective is to the scenes. But I also want to be very clear, because you haven't done it, what it's going to be like to shoot these scenes.

Yeah. Right? and so it's going to seem worse on the day than it will ever appear on film because it's one thing to see sort of glimpses and or even a little more but momentarily for seconds on screen and on the day you're going to basically have to be

undressed for the entire day. And so I started the conversation from the moment she accepted the movie and we talked a lot about it about the thematics and the approach but also what the days would be like so that by the time she got to set it was very easy to talk about yeah she was very prepared we had a pretty much the same

basic crew from hunger games was with us in budapest and so the camera operator who i think has done maybe seven of her movies because he does the david o movies too yeah uh my ad who's done two three movies with her now my d i mean that's you sort of whittle it down to who's going to be on set it was very familial yeah to her uh which really helped. The other thing that ended up, and this was unintentional that really helped, was that our very first day of shooting, there's a scene early on in the movie, which you know, where she goes into a steam room and kicks the... There's some violence. Can I say shit in your podcast? A kid kicks the shit out of this couple. And the couple's naked and they're having sex in the

steam room. And it's nudity, sex, violence, day one. But what was good for her was to see how we as a crew approach the scene, how respectful we all were, the privacy we gave them, how contained we kept the video village so that not everybody was sort of looking and gawking and all of that. And also to see how comfortable those actors were, that it was like,

you know, it was work. I mean, the nature of your relationship with her, this is four films in now, I would think she's comfortable saying, no, fuck that, I don't want to do that to you. Right? Probably, in those words almost verbatim, I could see her say.

what happens when an actor says that to you? You have something like, you know, you really believe in a shot or an angle, and it could be nudity or not. It doesn't necessarily have to be that. It could be a line. And Jen says, I just don't agree. What's your role there?

You know, I mean, I really try, and Jen is really good with this kind of stuff, and the rest of the cast is too. I really try and put as much out on the table as I can ahead of time. Because the thing that I hate the most is when people throw you a curveball on the day. I don't mind the questioning of anything ahead of time. And I actually like that

because sometimes people catch things and, you know, it's good for the movie. But once you're on the ticking clock, when you're on the ticking clock and you've got stuff to do and they've had plenty of opportunity to pay attention and chime in and they decide to do it in the last minute, drives me bonkers, and I don't do well with it. Jen doesn't do that. I mean, occasionally, like suddenly a line will pop out for her and she'll want to tweak it or take it out and it's usually fine. But I've never, I can't remember asking Jen to do something on the day that's surprised her, caught her off guard and she's refused to do it or really sort of come at me. Yeah. She's also, what she's also good at is if she has an issue with something. She'll propose an

alt as opposed to the people that just say, no, no, I won't do that. Come up with something better. Like, well, okay. Yeah, she's like, hey, what if we, yeah, she's a creative collaborator and not just somebody that's going to say no. Probably another reason I was just thinking, like, of the two major collaborators in her life, it's you and David O'Russell, who's a notorious, like, you know, loves collaboration to, like, or, I mean, I mean, I can't think of a, though, a more different personality than you. I mean, I haven't seen you work on set, but I feel like I know you enough to know that you're not a David or Russell. For good for bad. No. No. But I feel like that speaks volumes of her. I mean, I don't know what the common denominator is. Maybe it is you're both just collaborators in different ways. I think we're like, I just think that we are, I mean, I don't know him well at all.

I mean, I've met him before, but I think we're just polar opposites. And I think Jen has the sort of bandwidth to like and appreciate both things. I think she likes the way that I communicate and I think she likes the efficiency and I think the kind of organized calm manner of the way that I work and the specificity of it. but I also think she likes the organized chaos the chaos I think she does I think there's something for her kind of attention that it's it keeps her on her toes and as as volatile as it may get sometimes I think it's it's good and by the way you sort of can't deny it you look at those movies and there's just an energy to to David O movies I love him and and you see what he gets and you're like his personality comes through yeah there's energy literally in that camera you can feel it yes um So, well, talk to me just a little bit more generally about, like, where you were at. I mean, it sounds like you didn't really want to waste time after that Hunger Games experience, which was probably a good five years of your life, I would say.

It was, yeah, five years. Five years. That's a chunk. And just remind me, when you, when you signed on for catching fire, it wasn't until you were, like, what, midstream into production that they came to you. You started discussing and decided this was indeed going to be a longer-term discussion. Well, it was weird. It actually happened in prep, which was really surprising.

So I signed on for Catching Fire and jumped right in. I mean, I got hired on a Thursday. I was in the offices on Monday and going. And I remember sort of thinking like, oh, this is going to be weird. I mean, I guess it will be like, you know, some of those early Harry Potter's where, you know, at some point in my production, there's going to be some new director coming in and, you know, meeting the cast. And that'll be weird. Right. But, I mean, but I don't blame them because they had dated the Mocking Jane movie.

And I'm like, there's no way they'll have seen. catching fire before they need to start mocking jay right and it was in prep and nina one of the producers came to me and just said hey listen we think you know that the collaboration is going really well and you know she and john my other producer in the studio would want me to stay on if i would consider it so which was really surprising and really flattering and was there any hesitation on your part i mean a momentary hesitation of there had to be a real powwow because there was a moment where catching fire was finishing and mock the two mocking jays we did back to back were starting so there's a moment where we were literally doing all three movies at the same time we were shooting

the mocking jay movies while finishing catching fire wow and it that was a crazy crazy time so we needed to have a powwow about whether or not that was possible and i needed to have a talk with the family to make sure they were prepared with me to lose press for a couple months at least and then maybe a couple years. Yeah, exactly. But really, that was it. I liked everybody involved. So when you look back at those, or if and when you do look back, I mean, there are three distinct films, but they're also back to back to back and just like that was your focus for five years. So I don't know. I mean, are you able to kind of differentiate the experiences or does it kind of like all morph into one kind of your post-doctorate degree in Suzanne Collins?

Oddly, it's a little bit of both. Partly because they're all sort of different emotional experiences. There was definitely that sort of feeling you'd have if you were on a long-running television show where you're like the same families kind of together for an extended period of time. And you know, even though there's downtime between, you know, at least between catching fire and the mocking jays, you sort of feel like you're picking up where you left off. You know, the first one was just so scary because it was my first one. Right.

And I didn't know if it was going to do well. I mean, I didn't know if it was going to, you know, bomb if people were only interested in the first one or if it would be reviewed well. And then, my God, what happens if I have to go back to work with all these actors? And they didn't like the first one I did, you know, and now I've got 155 days and two movies ahead of me. Right. So that was a very different sort of beast. And then you get to the Mocking Jane movies. And it's just interesting because each one gets their own, you know, sort of takes on their own.

life even though we shot them together and so you know it's weird you know and then you have the death of philipsymore hoffman in the middle of it and that sort of marks it in kind of an emotional way that's very different than catching fire and does i mean i don't know about you i mean you you had a obviously a personal relationship with him i only met him once or twice i mean he's one of those people that like it will i'll just remember that he's gone yeah yeah it's like i have that with him and like robin williams honestly those are like two that like that i just like remember like oh my gosh they're not a part of this world anymore and it's just such an unjust like it's a it's heartbreak it really yeah i saved he um he sent me a really i mean left me a really nice voice message after seeing

catching fire and he really really liked the movie and i saved it and at first i saved it because he was somebody that i really looked up to in terms of acting and i saved it into the mocking j movies and then when he died i couldn't erase that voice message and i i literally just erased it in december my dad died and i don't know why somehow emotionally i was ready to to erase it but i had it for what would that be four years yeah i mean did did you have a sense that that he was going through stuff on those films or was he separating at all you think at the time yeah i mean we knew but he he seemed great i mean that was that was the sort of surprise to us all. He really, he really seemed great. I mean, we, we had heard, you know, we worked with him for

three weeks on catching fire. We didn't really know him. And he was a bit of a sort of an outsider. He didn't kind of join in the family fun, I will say. And then it came out that he had gone to rehab or something while we were in post. And now it was out in the open. And he liked the movie. It was a completely different experience with him. And so it was actually far better on the mocking jean movies and it had been on catching fire. And, you know, we knew that he was dealing with stuff and then he was trying really hard, but he was good and he was invested and he was, you know, working on it and he was fun to be around. So it was just, you know, really shocking.

No, yeah. I mean, I've talked to many who have worked with them obviously and I think even in that time period, maybe it was a little, I mean, it was obviously a little bit before, but like talking to Andrew Garfield who had like a very seminal experience with him on Broadway when he was doing death of a salesman. and that, a guy that just took his work. So, I mean, he didn't do anything half-ass to say the least. No.

I mean, it was, he was an actor. Yeah, still a loss to this day. It's horrible. Coming out of those three films and succeeding in terms of, you know, delivering what you, I would imagine you view them as successes, both in terms of what the actual product was and also, you know, it made the requisite money it needed to make, et cetera. Everybody was happy. Did you feel, like, as a film.

How do you think those films generally challenged you and sort of like prepared you for different adventures, different challenges going forward? Well, it's interesting. I mean, I think that it was like there was a lot to learn. I mean, I learned a ton, A, from, you know, the actors that we worked with. I mean, working with Phil and Julianne and, you know, Woody. I mean, that was an amazing Donald and insane cast. I learned a ton from them. I learned a lot from Suzanne Collins.

You know, I think she's a fantastic storyteller and she worked really closely with us. But it was also, you know, in terms of sort of long-term storytelling, you know, I was so used to sort of dealing with the two-hour format to really start to think six hours of movie was really different and to see where they all go and to really think about the dramatic, the separate dramatic questions for each. It was also the first time for me that I truly felt like I was telling a thematically important set of stories. And that's actually the thing that I'm most proud of with those movies. You know, looking back, you sort of see after my first one, the box office started to dwindle a little bit. And, you know, I also look at it and I go, well, it started to dwindle as the story got more grand. And more thematic. Right.

As the sort of fun, kookiness of some elements of the first and even my first started to go away, the audience dwindled a little bit, right? But even by those standards. It's actually, I was thinking about this when I knew I was going to talk to you, to think about how ginormous those movies were, considering the complexity and the darkness of the material. I mean, the only thing I can analogous in the last year or two is like Handmaid's Tales, like, success. Like, I mean, like, and I don't, in sheer numbers, it probably doesn't have the success. Clearly that Hunger Games did, but at least it's getting, like, the residue, you know, the, the, the, the acclaim it deserves. But, like, you made Star Wars, like, size, like, blockbusters. about PTSD and war crimes and just like heavy shit yeah no and that's look that's what I'm that's what

I'm really proud of but the thing is and this is an unfortunate thing and I'm you know I'll probably always be dealing with this and this is what I'm getting prepared to deal with now yeah is with the release of a movie the last taste in your mouth is that sort of public perception of things right and so when you know when Machin J1 comes out and only opens to 126 million or or something instead of 155. What ends up happening is it's not, hey, it's a success. It's like, oh, it underperformed. And so you get this thing, right?

And so sort of the last taste in my mouth is underperformance and cash grab because they split the last book. And it's just a, you know, it's a bummer. That's like you had a great time making it. You tried to do something. It's actually kind of important in terms of ideas. And that's like those are the headlines. Well, you could be Divergent.

Divergent didn't even make it through. I mean. I know. That's the scary thing. I mean, honestly, that's why, you know, I've been working with the writer on a possible sequel to Red Sparrow, too. Sure. The writer of Justin, who did the first one with me. But, you know, we haven't dated it.

It's nothing. This is all in the like, luckily, hopefully we get to make another one. We'd love to, but it's funny. Yeah, it's bizarre to think of, but to learn humility from mocking J. Part 2 is a scary, like, reminder that no matter how high you, you rise in this industry, there's still these bizarre expectations that you can't, that nobody can live up to. And we all, like, I don't know, it's hard to get perspective. Yeah.

I mean, honestly, what I've really tried to get better at is to really try to enjoy the process, right? Tell a story you're really passionate about, work with people that you trust and care about and can have fun with. Yeah. Because the truth is the release and that feeling is, you know, about 30 days of your life. Right. And the making is two years. So I would hope you also take, take some time occasionally, and I'll help you take a step back to, like, look at, like, the films you've been able to make and the canvas that you've been able to kind of, like, play in.

And, you know, you're on a short list of people that people trust with this kind of scale of filmmaking. And you've, you've delivered film after film. Sure, I get that. But I also think that, you know, you, with anybody, I think, creative, I mean, unless you're a complete egotist, right? I think you look back at your stuff and go, I mean, look, I, in I Am Legend, I would maybe keep the first 60 minutes. Really? Yeah, I would throw the rest out and redo it. Wow.

I mean, I would. I mean, but it's, you know, it's hindsight. Yeah. So you look at it and you go, you see sort of what people think and you, you know, you look at what worked and why did people go? Did you, did you know that at the time on I Am Legend or did it take, because there was obviously debate about the ending and you've talked about that and how closely to Hugh to the source material. And, you know, there were, again, varying degrees of satisfaction from the audience. Did it take kind of like reading people's interpretations or hearing what people have this say? Because again, if you look at the numbers, that was a huge success. It was very, yeah, no, it was very successful. And I'm very grateful for that. But I think that, you know, the truth is, is that Will and Akiva, who's the writer-producer and I were really attracted to the weird little sort of character art film in it,

which is this guy who's the last man on earth and it's dealing with social deprivation and Survivor's guilt and, you know, that was what I loved. I could give a shit about the infected people swarming his house. And I think the truth is, is that we were afraid

because they were spending $150 plus million making the movie. You can't just make an art film. Like it has to have some, So you start kind of adding the stuff to it because, you know, you feel like you're sort of tricking the studio and letting you make this movie by doing that. And then what you end up doing is, you know, you sort of spoil it. And I think people went for the last man on earth. And they didn't go for the hordes of those zombies.

And, you know, in truth, we had a bit of a fuck up with them anyway digitally. And they didn't look that great on top of it. And so, you know, it spoils the end. Right. And there's still a lot of people to like the movie. Yeah. Was there ever, and I've asked you many times and many have, it sounds like it's probably not going to happen, at least with you at this point, or correct me if I'm wrong, but an extension, whether it's a prequel or sequel or sequel. Was there ever a script or story that you were intrigued with for a time in terms of continuing that story? No, you know, Warner's was really, really, really into coming up with something. And I just didn't know how to do it because I, I mean, what I was just saying, I saw very quickly after the movie came out and I went, people went to go see the last man on Earth. We've done the last man in Earth. We've done the last man. on earth he died at the end of the movie we can't do it again but people weren't in love with him as a character you know yeah um it's not indiana jones like this kind of iconic character that um you just

want to see again and again and again and it just felt forced to do a prequel um and that was basically we would have been doing contagion right um and to do something that's a follow-up either doesn't have him in it or you have to do something really dumb which is you know scientists have taken his DNA and, you know, reanimated him somehow, and that would have been really dumb. And so I just, I kind of bowed out very quickly. Godspeed, guys. Good luck with that. Yes.

Yeah, yeah. Have you followed, you know, Constantine was your film debut. We haven't yet seen that character return to the big screen, but there have been some major efforts by Warner Brothers to include him in like a, I don't know what they're calling it at this point, Justice League Dark, yeah. Have they ever talked to you about that? Would you ever consider, I mean, it would be obviously a. different iteration of the character. Is that something that you're curious about?

You mean Justice League Dark or? I don't know. I have to say that I have not been that drawn to the comic book stories as of late. I mean, my first movie was one. But I just haven't been, I haven't been drawn to them. I don't know why. If I gave you the library of Marvel and DC characters opened the book and said you could reboot do anything with any of them. None of them would intrigue you? There's not one that you grew up with or you used that? Definitely not one that comes to the top of my head right now. I mean, I can't say that if I read through all of them that I might find somebody, that I might find somebody that would be interesting, but yeah, off the top of my head now. How many, but you, I have to imagine, again, given the resume,

how many have you said no to? How many meetings have you had for like those kinds of Marvel and DC properties? I've definitely had a few, I've never had a Marvel meeting. Really? No. I've never had a Marvel meeting with with Marvel people I have been offered Marvel material at other studios got it um lots are Sony we can like I do some math yes and uh haven't been interested and I've had a DC meeting got it but was that I feel like I remember there was there like Superman talk very briefly for you now that was something different yeah okay fair enough um so and when you when you say so do you keep up with this stuff I mean have you see did you see Wonder Woman and John I saw Wonder Woman. Yeah, I haven't seen Justice League yet. I'll probably see it at some point. Yeah. Yeah, I saw Wonder Woman. I liked Wonder Woman a lot. Yeah. I thought it was really, it was much warmer and much more charming than I imagined. I had not, at least not that I can remember seeing Gal Godot and anything. And so I thought she was fantastic. And really, I mean, just really surprised me. I had no idea that she was going to be that magnetic and, and just lovable.

Yeah. I mean, you look at her and you just like her. I know. Yeah, that there's... I mean, she's beautiful, too, but you... There's truth to the charisma arguments, apparently. Yeah, yeah, unbelievable. So generally, do the Marvel films do it for you,

or is there something about those that, is there sameness to them that kind of like, I mean, you know, like, to hear people talk about it as up and down as the Warner Brothers films have had, they talk a big game about, like, kind of giving filmmakers, you know, more purview and maybe Marvel, I don't know. I don't know either. And Marvel, you know, the knock against them sometimes is that they're kind of like always very good, but there's a bit of a sameness sometimes to them. That's where I lie. I lie, lay.

That's where I am. I think that they all tend to be really, really solid. And some of them much better than solid. But there is a sameness to them. I have to say the ones stand out for me so far of the ones that I've seen was the first Guardians of the Galaxy. That one knocked my socks off. I think it felt like an outlier in that world. I think in terms of personality, in terms of originality,

emotion, just kind of all of it came together in a really, truly amazing way. Yeah. The early word is very good on Black Panther. I'm optimistic about that one too. It's going to be a success. Oh, my gosh. I'm very curious to see that one. Yeah, I was very impressed.

I mean, look, his trajectory from Fruitvale Station, what he did it on Creed, it's kind of exciting. It's really exciting to see what he's been doing. Yeah, I just have to say, I wish them a ton of success, but I hope two weeks later they have a big drop-off so we can be number one for, because there's something that tells me, they're still going to be number one. There's room for everybody. Yeah, let's hope.

What about just because we're getting out about the biggest properties out there, Star Wars, were you a Star Wars kid? I mean, you, for sure. You fit the age. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think I saw the first one when I was seven years old. It was at the Avco in L.A. I think it was actually the same, I think the same spot that JJ saw it when he was

kid yeah um yeah so i was i mean i grew up on on star wars and loving star wars but you know i was a fan of the i want to say the first three but that confuses people four five and six big attack of the clones fan francis warrants yeah no but what killed me i really did not like those movies um but my kids love those movies it's fascinating is it knocks me out yeah i know my yeah my nieces and nephews they they love like general grievous as much and dart mall as much as they You love Juan Luke. It's kind of bizarre. But I have to say when I saw JJ's, I, I teared up, honestly, I teared up out of nostalgia numerous times through the movie.

Yeah. Have you seen Last Jedi yet? Yeah. Yeah. Good stuff. I thought the last act was phenomenal. Oh, my God. Yeah.

I felt, yeah, talking about the emotion. I was like, I don't know if I ever actually cried, but I felt like on the brink of tears like six times through that film. It's impressive. Is that something that is a bucket list? Could you see yourself directing a Star Wars movie? I don't know. I mean, there's sort of the geeky side. You know, I have to say it was a, we were doing a score for one of the Hunger Games movies, maybe mocking J.1.

I forget what year it was. But we were in London doing it, and it was when JJ was shooting. And I had met him once or twice before, but my producer Nina's friends with him. I think they might have gone to high school together or something. Everything with JJ goes back to like. when he was 10. Yeah, and so she just called him up and said, hey, we're in London. Can we come by?

And he said, sure. And so we went by. And I have to say, that is the most I've ever geeked out on set. I mean, it's long out now, so I'm sure I can talk about it. I was, you know, probably going to be executed at I said anything. You weren't a storm super, were you? No, I was not in it. I wish.

My God, that would have been great. But, you know, when you see R2D2 rolling around and Chewbacca was there and we stood under the Millennium Falcon and there was, you know, it was just incredible. I mean, we were there for maybe an hour and a half or something, but... No, that's amazing. So that side of it, I would say, yeah, it would be fun to do because to actually be in that world and work in that world. But I don't know.

I have the sort of the problem, because, you know, Catching Fire was the only time I've ever done a sequel to someone else's first movie. So to go into a world that's so built out already is just not honestly that appealing to Sure, that's why Ryan's new opportunity is the envy of everybody. He gets to turn out a new trilogy and kind of wherever, whatever he wants. Yeah. Yeah. That's the dream. Yeah. Talk to me a little bit about, you alluded to this.

So I think you grew up in L.A., although you were born in, what, Austria? Yeah. So were you like the, like, 10 or 12-year-old that was running around with like a Super 8 camera or? I was. I went through a phase. I was that kid right after Star Wars. I sort of would run around with a Super 8 camera and I would put together little short movies and we had to put together plays as well

so I did that and then I kind of fell out of it out of the movie thing I mean I still liked movies but I fell out of thinking I wanted to make movies until I was in high school and then I sort of caught the bug again my parents split up and my time spent with my dad was going to the movies so we'd get together twice a week

and we'd see everything And so suddenly I was seeing, you know, like Scorsese's after hours and raising Arizona and these, and basically those movies sent me to film school. Totally. And, you know, many, you know, of your filmography was predated by some of the most influential music videos at the time. I mean, was that, and that was a significant probably period of your life where you were doing commercials and music videos. Yeah. Was the goal aspiration always during that time get me to the movies? This is fun while at last, but I want to...

Yeah, you know, I never intended on doing music videos. I always thought of myself as a movie guy, and I went to film school. You graduate, thinking, like, all right, I'm going to direct a movie, and suddenly you go, wait, who the fuck's going to hire me? And, you know, you suddenly find yourself working on a crew when I was an AC, and then I lucked into music videos because I had a friend who had a small record label. And he asked me to help make a video, and that led to another and another and another. And then the next thing I knew, I had this kind of great, really fun career doing videos. And I spent 10, 12 years doing it, which I'm actually really grateful for. It gave me a sort of a real, you know, it was like going to school for filmmaking,

dealing with personalities and equipment and effects and trying different things and shooting in different countries. And you just sort of get all of that out of your system. Yeah. So by the time I made my first movie, I had already had 350 plus shoot. days under my belt. Well, and yeah, you alluded to this, but like, yeah, sure, your first movie you're working with Keanu Reeves, but you'd already worked with, like, you know, Beyonce and Janet Jackson. Like, these are the biggest personalities and, you know, big egos. That's not a negative I'm saying, but, like, these are, you know, notoriously performers have very

specific ideas of the way they want to be presented. So you got a good schooling and sort of had to deal with every kind of personality, I would imagine. Yeah, and how also, I mean, you know, for the most part, I have to say the people I worked with were pretty great. There were a couple of people that were relatively horrendous. Most were great, including the people you just said, I have to say. They were actually pretty nice, pretty nice people. But often they're not quite as professional as actors, right? So they're often very late and you're having to sort of figure out how to kind of bob and weave and still get what you need to get to make a great video around these, you know, slightly irresponsible people, I would say. Was there a close call? There must have been a few, I would imagine, before Constantine. Any that almost came to pass as your debut feature that you were really psyched about or not? No, I mean, I had a few meetings. There's some things that I wanted, you know, I'll tell you a bullet that I dodged, actually.

It was one of the things that I went out for that I didn't get was Catwoman. Not that it would have turned out the same as that Catwoman, but yeah, I went out for Catwoman and they turned me down and they gave it to this French director, Pettoff. Yes. And then I remember they had. hired me on Constantine and not Ptoff. Petof, Ptoff was going for Constantine. You've lived parallel lives, you and Ptoff. Yeah, exactly.

I don't know what's happening at Ptoff. I was going to say, I haven't heard of Ptoff lately. Yeah. I wish him well. Yeah. Amazing. So have you, so you're already, you know, hedging your bets. Obviously, you're not going to count your, what, chickens until they've come

him to roost or whatever. I don't know what the analogy is, but interested in exploring more stories in this, about this character in particular. I imagine that's the germ of it, right? And you have, Jen, have talked about other projects, too. I mean, I remember the dive was something. Was that something you were doing that anymore? I sort of, I feel like I couldn't crack that one.

Yeah, we did talk about that for a while. She and I didn't collaborate it on her very much, but it was an idea that interested her. So I was working on it with some people and trying to figure out if I could do it. But it's a very interesting world and there's some interesting characters, but I just couldn't find the story that was sort of compelling enough for me to say, yeah, that's where I want to spend my. next two years. I remember that's been around forever. I remember talking to like James Cameron, like a decade ago about that. It's still at his company.

Is it? Yeah, it was his company. Is there, is there some way you'd like want to collaborate with Jennifer that in a way that we haven't seen her, a kind of a role, whether it's a specific project or just sort of like knowing her as well as you do and knowing her versatility and her skill set? I don't know, something that they think could challenge her in a different way and also excited you. Well, that was part of what was exciting about this, about Red Sparrow was to go, okay, we just spent five years, you know, collaborating on the same character over and over and over and over and over again and you know uh again she has not the longest attention span and so she i think you know honestly she was a little bored with it yeah um which is understandable after you know five years and so part of what was exciting was to say

let's do something completely different you know speak differently look differently move differently yeah train for some you know special ability the dancing and the ballet do that push yourself into different kind of tunnel and emotional territory. That was really fun. I'm sure we could find something else to do that's like that. I mean, we've talked about doing something that's, let's say, an uglier role of some kind. There's nothing, I mean, I've got something in the back of my head, but I won't say what it is yet. But yeah, I mean, that would be fun, something that's...

Is there anything to, again, just looking at other things that have come up across your way? The Odyssey was discussed at one point, I think as recently as last year, Battlestar Galactic. which I was a kid was, I mean, and even the recent iteration. I know, that's the first set I was ever on was Battlestar Galactica. What? I was a huge fan when I was a kid. Wait, the original? Like the original.

The original. Yeah, no, I was a huge fan of that show when I was a kid. And I grew up in the Valley and they were shooting one of the episodes at Cal State Northridge because they have this kind of 60s modern library that were using, you know, a building on another planet or something. Amazing. And my mom took me down there. And I remember getting to try on a Cylon helmet. I mean, so that the production design on that original show, and I think it started as actually a film.

The pilot was also in theaters, as I recall. I think still, I mean, like, does it hold up? But it's, it's like, there's an, there's an iconic nature to some of that stuff that I really appreciate. Is that something that's still developing, you'd be intrigued by? Yeah, that we're still working on. We're still trying to crack that. But no relation to the Ron Moore show. Got it.

No, it's not connected to that. It's a sort of standalone. It's its own piece. Got it. Can you say anything about the germ? I mean, I understand what the germ of the idea probably is that intrigues you, but what you'd want to retain about that original story or show that you'd be excited to be. No, I don't want to sort of delve too much into the development of it.

But it's just, you know, there's a lot of, I think, relevant themes to today that we can explore in the world of Galactica. There you go. Okay. Well, here's hoping to that one. Again, as a fan of yours and a fan of that story, that definitely intrigues me. Well, I wish you the best of luck on this one. I was very much entertained by this. It's, yeah, there's a lot to chew on in this.

And I'm excited for audiences to see this and kind of like, I don't know what they're expecting, but to sort of see. That's the trick right now. What I'm finding is that I think people, right, in the world today, are expecting action. And it's not. It's not, well, it's all action. I mean, there's tension. Yes. There's sustained tension and excitement.

You're not to be bored, I guarantee. But, yeah. Yeah, and I also think people aren't expecting it to be as rough as it is. Yeah. Yeah. This isn't, I mean, all of your stuff is adult in some nature, but this is a different level. Yeah. Which is a good thing.

I give it a thumbs up. And I encourage people to check it out on March 2nd. March 2nd, yeah. Excellent. Red Sparrow. It's always good to catch up with you, man. Thanks for visiting my silly office. Absolutely.

And on to the next one. And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh. The Old West is an iconic period of American history. full of legendary figures whose names still resonate today. Like Jesse James, Billy the Kid, and Butch and Sundance,

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