Happy Sad Confused - George Miller

Episode Date: May 15, 2015

On a bonus episode of Happy Sad Confused, amazing director George Miller joins Josh for an in-depth discussion of all things Mad Max. You’re going to want to see Mad Max: Fury Road before listening for maximum enjoyment! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Hey guys, welcome to a bonus episode of Happy, Sad, Confused. I'm Josh Harrowitz. The reason I say bonus is this is a weekly podcast. That's just the way it usually goes. Yeah, we take some weeks off here and there when life intervenes. But this week, a second episode for you guys. because we just couldn't stop the amazing bookings from happening organically. Booking is kind of a strange beast.

You know, often I'm simultaneously trying to get, you know, half a dozen different people at once. And it sort of usually just sort of works out where the schedule somehow organically works out, where it makes sense to plot people. The way this worked out, Jack Black ran in the previous episode. By now, you've enjoyed that. You've loved that. You've fallen in love with Jack Black all over again. If not, you can go back and listen after this.

I won't hold it against you. And next week we have our usual Monday guest is a time-sensitive one. I won't say who it is because we like to keep things exciting, interesting, unpredictable. But it's another good one. But then this guy landed in my lap. and I, he's so high on my list in terms of people I've always wanted to talk to for an extended period of time. The guest today is the amazing director, George Miller, who if you are a movie fan, if you consume pop culture on the regular, you hear the deafening cries of exaltation about Mad Max Fury Road, which is now out in theaters. Um, this is an amazing movie.

I, I, I'm not alone in this. I think this is a movie that will, uh, go down as one of the best of this year. And frankly, one of the best, uh, in, in many recent years, um, certainly within the genre of action, it is pushing the envelope. It is, um, keeping things fresh in a genre where it's really feels oftentimes tired and hackneyed. George Miller is the director of all of the Mad Max films. He actually co-directed Man Max Beyond Thunderdome. There's a fun fact for you. But he is certainly the mastermind behind all of these films.

And it's been, it's been 30 years since there's been a Mad Max film. I want to talk briefly about sort of my own relationship with this franchise because this is, like, if you're listening to this and if you're going to listen to the next 45, 50 minutes, you're probably vaguely aware, interested in George Miller's work and Mad Max's work and the world. of Mad Max. So hopefully this won't feel like too much of a tangent. But I feel like it's worth noting. You know, we, the place that this franchise has had in my own life has been an important one. For instance, I don't, I don't think I mentioned this to George, probably because this doesn't reflect favorably on, on my, the taste of my family members. But one of my earliest film going memories was as a six-year-old going to see the Road Warrior. with my brother and my grandfather

and being basically pulled out of the theater after about 15 minutes of that film when my grandfather realized this was not for him and maybe not for me. I mean, admittedly, the Road Warriors probably not appropriate for any six-year-old, let alone seven-year-old, eight-year-old. I don't know what the appropriate age is,

but Road Warriors' intense stuff. So that was my first interaction. And then, of course, Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome, released in 85, really hit me in a sweet spot then, it just in terms of creating a bizarre world that really laid a deep imprint on young Josh Horowitz's psyche. It's a very unusual franchise in that extremely creator-driven. This is not a studio constructed franchise. This is not from, you know, there's no sense in any of these four films now of a committee of,

of people touching this. This is one man's singular vision, George Miller, and working with, especially in Fury Road, with the top artisans in his field. The film features amazing performances. It features insane stunt work.

There's going to be talk about stunt, this stunt work all year long. There's already been a little bit of talk about adding a category for stunts. This is something that Tom Hardy himself said to me, just a few weeks back when I spoke to him that there should be that acknowledgement. It's a really special film, and I would suggest, though we don't really get into like heavy spoiler territory, the best way to probably enjoy this conversation, check out Mad Max Fury Road this weekend or whenever, then come back and listen to this conversation. That would be, that would be my recommendation, just because if you're like me, after seeing the movie, I wanted to talk more about it with people that had seen it. I wanted to read up about it.

I went back and watched the first three films again. I just wanted to kind of live in that world for a little bit more and sort of soak up the mad genius of George Miller, who is a fascinating director. We talk a little bit about his other work in this too. But if you don't know, this is a guy. He's, first of all, he's 70 years old, which is crazy. I mean, between him and Scorsese, these are guys that are not showing any signs of playing it safe, of retreating. to, you know, I mean, they're doing their most

vital work, arguably ever at this age, which is astonishing and inspiring. But George's filmography is a testament to the kind of interesting, unusual filmmaker that he is. The Babe films, the Happy Feet films,

which is of Eastwick, which is a great fun film. Lorenz Oil, which probably most of you haven't seen, but is definitely worth checking out for the great performances of Nolte and Susan Sarandon. This, if you can't tell from the beginning of the conversation, I was kind of in awe of George Miller.

I talked to him once before in San Diego at Comic-Con a few months back. But, you know, I tried to keep the gushing to a minimum. But in this case, it felt warranted because if you can't tell by now, I'm in love with this movie. So I guess without any further ado, here is my conversation with the genius that is George Miller. He stopped by my office and this was a real treat and I hope you guys enjoy it as much as I did. Here you go. It was it was such a treat to meet you for the first time in San Diego at Comic Con that

you, you know, there are some filmmakers that you, you grow up admiring and you get to a position like the one I have and then you get a chance to really kind of just, I don't know, exchange ideas and pester them with all the questions you've always had. and you're definitely high on the list, so it's a thrill. Thank you so much. Congratulations on the film. This is like, I have to say, I'm going to, there's going to be some gushing here because I've been, I spent the weekend watching the original trilogy after having

seen this film twice in a week. Oh, wow. And it's, it's really stuck with me like few films have in a while. And just as rewarding, I should say, the second time around. Oh, thank you. That's, you know, one of the ways I measure a film is just, how long it follows you out of the cinema. Yeah, I want to just, I want to, like, soak in this world.

So the next, like, 45 minutes are just another opportunity for me to just, like, bask in Mad Max's world for a little while. So is this something that, like, I know you've talked a bit about this coming back around a while ago, about 15 years ago. Did it come out of nowhere? Does Max kind of come into your life at various points, or was it dormant for a while in terms of not thinking about it? Very, very dormant.

I mean, I, I, I, they do. they're like imaginary friends every story you work on I mean they do invade your sleep and your daydreams and so on and that's the nature of what we all do that happens to everybody but I never intended to make

a second Mad Max let alone a fourth and then this idea pops in your mind and you're saying well that's Mad Max and then you immediately push it away and then you it comes back and then becomes more insistent and it grows and then start to get excited by what the potentials of it.

And so, and one day you find yourself saying to your colleagues, I think we'll be making another Mad Max movie. I just didn't realize it would take so long to make it. Well, I'm curious because one of the joys of this film among many is that it feels in some ways, it feels certainly modern and feels like it works in 2015, but it also feels anachronistic in some ways in that, you know, you know as well as I do, most films nowadays over-explain everything and the backstory of everyone. And so much is implied here, so much is to be intuitive from the audience, not much dialogue,

and yet great characterizations, and you do feel more connected with these characters than a film that has a hundred times the dialogue. I'm just curious, like, your relationship with the studio, frankly, where it takes balls for Warner Brothers, I would think, to, like, put their trust in you and to say, like, contrary to what's out there yeah I'll let you kind of make this very counter to what the culture is demanding film was there any kind of

give and take with the studio in terms of what how much to explain and that sort of a thing there wasn't much because they got when they got the screenplay it was an atypical screenplay it was an illustrated screenplay because its first iteration was a storyboard 3,500 panels

we'd written out the basic plotting But we, that's the first version. And then what they got was a kind of illustrated screenplay with the dialogue written in and more typical sort of description. But also pictures, you know, cliche, but they tell a thousand words. It's much, much easier for the cast and crew to be able to see where they were in space through a drawing rather than trying to describe it.

So from the get-go, they understood what they were getting. Yeah. And very early on, there were people within the studio who said, oh, this is, this is, there's something different, unique, uniquely familiar, let's say, about the movie. And that sort of stayed through it. The only things we got, I like test screenings, providing you have final cut. Right. And you did a final cut on us?

Yeah. I was lucky enough with my first movie, the first Mad Max, to be successful. I've always had final card. Is that right? Wow. Yeah. And anyway, the point being that the only time that anything like that came up was about clarity. Okay. And really, because of so much noise in shooting the movie, there was always vehicles and stuff.

The dialogue wasn't very clear. It was impossible for Ben Osmo, the sound record us to actually get good dialogue. So later, when we were able to read it. replace that with looping, things became clearer, and so we were able to keep it pretty well a minimum. Plus, you know, in a way, I think of this, the action movies, and this one in particular, as a silent movie with sound and music. And, you know, my favorite, my favorite dictum from Albert Hock, who knew more about film language than everyone else was, I try to make movies where they don't have to read the subtitles in Japan. Right. It's visual music.

Yeah. It's visual music. And audiences have seen so many of these things. I mean, they've watched them in the westerns. They've seen them in the video games. They've seen these sorts of allegorical story about, you know, it's like a Western on wheel. So they've seen this so often that they can bring so much to the story and have the experience. So I hope that explains you.

It does. It does. I'm curious. I mean, so I think you answer. this question that I'm not going to ask, but again, the stereotypical evil studio bosses in my head would seem to demand, for instance, like, there's no romance. There's no kiss between, for instance, Furiosa and Max. Was that ever something that were like? Never. Never. Because it was clear from the story, they had no time. I mean, things are moving so fast. They're in extremists.

They don't have time to breathe. It happens over three days. And they, have that one night where they can actually talk. Right. And these are two characters, Max and Furiosa, you know, Tom and Charlese, who are trying to kill each other when they first meet. Yeah. Because their survival depends on one killing the other virtually. And I should know, we are going to get into some spoiler territory here.

But like, for instance, one of the sequences talking about that relationship, almost like an emotional high point for me in the film. And it's even the music kind of shift. shifts, Junkie XL's score shifts in a big way is sort of this, what I would call like a team-up scene where they finally kind of like are helping each other. Was that something that, I mean, is that something that you give directive on the music side? Like, okay, this is a moment where the emotion should shift, where we, where the nature of the relationship is shifting and we need to reflect that, or is that sort of intuitive from what you've shot?

Both. I mean, we talk a lot. I think the great Great composers are also people who have a strong instinct for drama. But we dig down deep into the drama in terms of what's happening, the dynamics between the characters. And then we're looking for a musical color, a way to express that. And that was clearly simple strings, not big orchestra, just simple cellos and violins. Excuse me. And that just came out of working.

I mean, Tom Holkenberg, Junkie Exel, wrote the big, big action scores first, and we left to the very last, the more intimate scenes. But that just comes from a really, you know, intimate relationship between a director who is totally unmusical and doesn't really understand how to make beautiful music, even though I have the instinct for it. And someone who's able to explain almost in a mathematical way about why certain sounds and harmonies and tempos give us certain feelings, and we're able to come and meet, you know, meet there.

The, it's interesting because the story passed of this project was something that, again, we alluded to a little bit, but I do want to get into. Obviously, you've talked about this before, way back when, this was, this was Mel was still going to be the guy. Yeah. There was talk also, and I'm curious about this, Heath Ledger, was Heath Ledger? Was Heath up for replacing Mel as Max, or was he Nux? Or what was his...

No, no, he was for replacing Mel. After it fell apart in 2001, and then I took close to four years to do happy feet, the first happy feat. You know, a good half a decade had passed. And Mel hit the turbulence in his life. And it's not an older warrior. It's meant to be the same character repeated over time, much like those James Bond characters. because they're 50 years old. It's not a continuous story.

And then, but Heath, every time he'd come through Sydney, he'd call in and we'd have really these long talks. And, and, you know, we talked about Max and, and, but, but, but it wasn't, you know, I wasn't even sure if it was going to get up again. Yeah. And then, and then, you know, that, that awful tragedy. that he was lost to the world happened. But he had that same quality that Mel had

when he walked in the door 30 years before kind of that male, nervous energy, very lovable on the one hand, but also a mystery. And then the only other time I felt it was with Tom Hardy. He walked in the door. They were all three of them as very skilled actors and very interested.

in exploring what we do in terms of storytelling on film. And Tom had that feeling. So, yeah. What struck me when I was watching the original three films and I was reading up, it's just how young Mel was also, despite playing, like, he, even in Thunderdome, which I think he must have been 28, 29, and yet he is, I mean, you say from the get-go, especially, I think, between Mad Max and Road Warrior, by Road Warrior, you feel a lived-in life, even though he's only 25, 26 shooting that.

I think he's even less. He was 21 on the first Mad Max, and he still had that sort of a little puppy teenage equality. That was gone by Road Warrior. But Road Warrior, he was a man. He was only 24. I mean, it was quite remarkable in that way. Tom Hardy was six weeks old when we shot the first Mad Max,

and Tom's in his 30s now. But, yeah, but Melton was very, very manly, uh, uh, always. And, um, I had the, at the premiere in Los Angeles, I had the extraordinary experience of sitting next to Mel. Right. On that side and Tom just behind me. Amazing. And, uh, what did he say to you afterwards or? Well, during the movie, you know, he'd just give me a little nutshell thing and I could tell, uh, you know, he's just laughing and, you know, laughing during the movie and you're really caught up. and he was like a one-man audience to me

and he was really good and, you know, he's a, you know, for all his troubles, he's also a wonderful, generous person who's very, very generous and a great filmmaker. Absolutely. I mean, I remember,

I remember it was Mad Max 2 that he would never go to the trailer. He would just sit around on set. He wouldn't, he'd just sit around. and watch. Yeah. And then I said to him one day, I said, you're going to direct one day.

And he said, it'll be interesting. And I'll remember. And then, of course, you see the work that he's done. Yeah, he's a thrill. And it's been tough for all of us that, like, you know, I mean, I grew up with his films. And I still, and I can't, and I do separate what the stuff he's been through. And I hope he comes out on it and has come out on it on the other side and continues to make great work because he's just such a vital performer.

filmmaker, as you say, and we shouldn't have to lose someone like that. Talk to me a little bit about, so did you go back to the first, did you watch the first three films, either when you were putting this together at any points? Did you find, is it just so ingrained you don't need to? No, no, I didn't. It's amazing. You know, once I finish a film, uh, after seeing it with an audience about three or four times, I never go back. And what was the, one of, one of the extraordinary, most extraordinary experience I've had in recent life was to go to South by South West and watch a newly minted print of Road Warrior with an audience fully through for the first time in 32 years.

And it was a kind of time travel. It was very affecting because I was surprised just how much of the movie held up after that time. I've looked at little bits of the film, of all the films. but you know once you're done you're done and and and and so much in my head I didn't want to go to refer it's not a remake

it's not anything like that it's a kind of revisiting or amplification or re-exploring it's like reinventing your hometown you know you have it in your imagination and you kind of reinvented in your mind in terms of structure though it's probably this one is close

to Road Warrior in terms of the relentless pace of it. Yes. I was curious about that, too. Like, in terms of pacing, and I remember you first mentioned this to me when I talked to you in San Diego about this being one, essentially one long chase, which blew my head off when I heard that. And it pretty much is indeed that. And what I notice in watching it a couple times is, is you, it is a relentless chase yet almost like every 30 minutes or something. It feels like there's a moment. There's a, you give some breaths.

And is that something that you were conscious of and are conscious of? Because the way audiences just received films today is different than 30 years ago, just in terms of what they're used to. How aware were you of that? And talk to me sort of like how that might have affected the structural and pacing of this one. Well, you've got to remember cinema language is an acquired language that's not too much more than a century old. And we can read cinema, film language, before we can read the written word, even as a child. And it's evolving. It's evolving through just moving image endlessly.

We're picking up more inferences. We're speed reading movies now. Road Warrior had 1,200 shots in it. This one has 2,700. The average so-called blockbuster movie, action movie has between 2,000 and 3,000 shots in it. Someone told me the other day, the first Jurassic Park had something like 950 shots in it and 65 digital shots in it. So we're definitely getting faster and speed reading. And you're getting a Michael Bay film today.

I can only imagine it's probably thousands and thousands. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. So, and so we're definitely able to sort of get them. read them much more quickly and and the language is is short-handed and so that was an interesting thing to sort of deal with excuse me and and then of course you need it's like the other thing is it's kind of visual music yeah it's endlessly you're using the analogy to music it's like little pieces of time like notes of music there's got to be a causal relationship between one shot and

other, just there is a causal relationship between the harmonies and the structure of music with tempos and so on. So part of the tempo is a quickening pace, reaching a crescendo, and then quietening down. You have to do that. Otherwise, it just becomes head-banging white noise after a while. So the same visually. And repetition, you know, Margaret Seekyll, who cut the movie, who also happens to be my wife, She's got a low boredom threshold and also really dislikes repetition but also has a kind of, you know, a demands that there's be some sort of strong causal connection spatially or thermatically or in some way between one shot and the next.

So you bring all that to bear and you hope that the end result, you know, does it for, you know, it holds up as a piece of. of visual music. Bernard Hermann used a great term. He said, cinema is a mosaic art. It's made up of all the little pieces somehow making a hole. And you really don't know

until you get all the elements together how the thing's going to play. One element that I want to mention again, so many things I love in this film, but the return of an actor, another actor that you use and the original Mad Max is your villain here and just visually in terms of presence,

a remarkable creation. Can you talk about sort of where that figure came from? More than Joe, right? Morton Joe. Yeah. What was where'd the look come from? Which is just like, it's just Well, first of all, Hughie's burnt,

I owe a lot to, on the first Mad Max because I knew nothing about acting. He was from the Royal Shakespeare Company. He'd done a very celebrated production of mid-Sumelight's dream which toured the world with which Peter Brook put together

and he ended up in Australia with a commune of actors and they formed the biker gang and he he sort of so played that out it wasn't quite method it was very playful

but they drove around the city as a biker gang for the entire duration of the shirt and he really gave a glue to that film for the other actors to work with so we killed him off

in the first film and never had the opportunity to work with him again. So to do that again with the warboys and so on and create this sort of this patriarchal figure who sits above the dominance hierarchy and controls all the resources of the wasteland and he's now kind of trying to create a sort of a cultish semi-religious sense about himself so he can manipulate everybody. It was very, very, and needed someone as powerful as he. and he he'd walk on the set

and he'd insist that everybody call him immortal and call him daddy and do the sign of the V8 and this not only included the actors the warboy actors but the stunt crew and many of the crew joined in and he just has that as very playful particularly when you're out there in that desert

to have that and it just brings that blue and the character is, again, another timeless character in all of history. We see him, you know, the patriarch basically up there. He, I mean, he's, the, the, the costuming of it is, on the one hand, he has that mask, which is, in a sense, giving him, he needs it to breathe. Sure. Healthy air. But it also, So it can't look therapeutic. It has to look formidable. Mission accomplished.

Yeah. It has to be scary. So it's like that guitar. It's a guitar. It's clearly the equivalent of the bugler or the drummer or the bagpipes. But it has to be a logic to it. And it has to look great. It has to be functional.

But also has to be a weapon. Sure. Because it's a flamethrower. So as manic as the movie looks in its design, everybody had to sort of have very, very similar ground rules to design it. And one of which is, just because it's the wasteland, it doesn't mean that people can't make beautiful things. I mean, no matter how impoverished we are as humankind,

we always have an aesthetic. Even the Paleolithic's had wonderful drawings and cave drawings and so on, and they were extraordinary. So that was one of the big things. It can't look like a junkyard because anything that survived was like found objects repurposed, almost like found art. So a steering wheel was much more than the steering wheel and so on. Going back, did Tina Turner go similarly method for her role in Thunderdown? What are your recollections of working with Tina?

Well, Tina is one of the most remarkable people I've ever met. I mean, she has, because of her life and who she is. had just a stature. She's just somebody who exuded that power, and it was earned. I'm sure it's intrinsic to her. So when we, you know, I kept on saying as we were writing with Terry Hayes

all the time ago, we'd just say, oh, instead of making it a man, let's make it a woman, but might be more interesting, and it'd be someone like Tina Turner. We kept on saying, someone like Tina Turner.

And then we finally decided to cast, we said, well, let's ask Tina. And she turned out to be wonderful. I'm actually surprised she didn't pursue acting more. And again, and watching it again, I mean, it's one of a very few performances she's ever given. But she holds her own. She has a presence, as you say. Oh, she has it, yeah.

Yeah. Whose idea was, and how immediately did you know it was brilliant was Master Blaster? Because Master Blaster is one of those, again, add to the pantheon of characters in this universe that just, when I first, that was like one of the first thing. That was like one of the first ones I encountered as a child, and it was immediately like, that's ingrained forever. It comes out of story. If you're in an apocalyptic world, the essential question you have to ask about everyone,

how did they survive? Where the rules, basically there's no rule of law, and it's usually the most powerful and most mobile who survived. So how would someone survive? And if you had a man who is not very clever, but he's got, you know, he's a powerful physically. And you had a man who is not powerful physically but has a great brain. Well, those two would work synergistically or symbiotically together.

So that's how those characters. And then you, I think, again, it was Terry Hayes who came up with the name Master Blaster. It sticks with you. You've said that, and Tom, I recently talked. talk to him too, mention that you have two, at least two other stories. Yes. Are these in similar formats to what you delivered to Warner Brothers in terms of like full-on storyboard scripts?

One is. One is. And the other, when, so initially did the first draft, this kind of storyboarded draft of the, of Fury Road with Brandon McCarthy. and then when it came back again, Nicola Lathuris is someone I'd worked with a lot who's a dramaturgan writer and was a great actor in the day,

back in the day. And we started to really dig down deep into the world and write the back stories for everything, even vehicles. And then we talked about, and came up with these other stories and then because I had to go off and work on other stuff I said well

don't write as a screenplay write as a novella so he wrote a novella on Max and it's very strong so it's something we you know we you know if

if this film does well enough and I get the appetite to go back into that wasteland we could we could do it and that's separate from also Charlize mentioned that there's a full on furious story that's separate yeah yeah

This is a lot. Yeah. Well, it never intended to do it. It's really strange. You never intended, you know, put, you know, my favorite saying of all time is John Lennon, life is what happens when you're making other plans. I know it's way too early to talk specifically about what those storylines are, but I'm just curious, like, can you tease in terms of inform? Are they similar to, into this one, in terms of, i.e. being one long chase. Can you talk in terms of, like, what you're experimenting with in terms of.

And they're different in form. They're not continuous. This one happens over three days. One happens over about a year and the other happens over several years. Wow. Leaning in one direction or another right now in terms of what could be the... I don't know. You know, I've just finished this movie.

Yeah, I know it's cruel. I keep on saying it's like asking a woman who's just given birth, do you want to, when are you going to make another baby? Fair enough. I'm just greedy, I just want more and hopefully it won't take 15 more years of development but the reception seems to indicate

there is an appetite which is exciting I mean in looking at your career and I'm a fan of all of your directing efforts you must take a certain pride in terms of the disparate kinds of films that are on that resume it speaks to

your many talents, your many interests but do you categorize max almost as like its own separate thing? Is that like the one thing, it has to be like, you know, the thing you're remembered for? Is it the Max films? Or do you take, you know what I mean?

Nothing, nothing at all conscious. I mean, I'm driven, I'm definitely driven by an intense curiosity for cinema and how, how almost the cultural anthropology of it, how what it means, what storytelling is. So

I come out from two angles. What does the technology allow allow us to do. So when I first saw motion capture, I thought, oh, we can make the penguin's dance. But the penguin story was the one I really wanted to tell. And I think also, it just occurred to me not long ago that I made the Mad Max movies when I didn't have kids. And then when the kids come along, you spent a lot of time in the cinema watching family movies. And so you're prime, your mind is alert to those stories. So, Well, if you read the book about the sheep pig, which became babe, you're there and you see

that, hey, it's a classic hero myth and that it should be done at CG, and you wait for that and so on and so on. And now it goes through the happy feats, and then the kids are growing up, and you're not watching family movies anymore, and so you go back to a Mad Maxwell, you know. One project that it's in the list of, like, great unrealized projects, I know for many Cineophiles is the Justice League movie that you were going to do, which came insanely close. Like, you were all

there, like the entire cast was there, right? We were all there. We were up against a deadline with the Writers Guild, and it was the first film that was to get a rebate, a significant rebate in Australia. And there was a board

which voted four to three to deny it. because it wasn't seen, one person basically. One person, a little bit like the Supreme Court in Florida. And really, they hadn't sorted out, they've still bewildered by the definition of the legislation, and it wasn't seen as an Australian content enough. Since then it's become strong Australian creative, all the Australian creativity had to be the top.

So a few years later, they're able to make Great Gatsby, which is quintessentially American. But when the Star Wars film, some of them were shot there, et cetera. This was after the Star Wars. This is after Star Wars. And now, now, if it was today, they would allow on the rebate. But then we couldn't, you know, it dragged right up until the deadline. The right is right. Yeah.

So what, can you talk about just in terms of look or tone, what that film would have been, what your take on? Because it seems much different than what's, what's developed on the D.C. universe side of things and the... Well, we were working with great people. Ken Ralston was doing the visual effects. And when a workshop was doing everything else, and Richard Taylor or Sir Richard Taylor,

were doing the costumes and the designs of characters, so they're very, very beautiful. And so... Yeah, but that's, again, John Leonard. It's just one of those You can be philosophical about that Was there time If I talked to you 10 or 20 years ago

About products that came close Or fell apart Where you might not have been as philosophical And it Oh you learned very early To be philosophical Because And this applies to every filmmaker

You know We all have Four or five things All cooking along And see which one breaks When the planets align You know I had the great privilege

Of getting to know Robert Rodriguez and was there two days ago in Austin and he was saying the same he's got several things that he's working on and suddenly

something happens and all the critical masses sort of come together and suddenly you find yourself making it real so it's not like you sit there

and sort of you know you just move on to the next thing and and same here now there's a lot more movies that I've worked on in my head or have written that I'll ever have time to do right I mean it strikes me that like the max franchise for instance is unlike many franchises of the size it's really creator driven it's your baby obviously with some obviously some huge help from some some collaborators but like would you ever consider letting someone else play in that sandbox for instance yeah there's a lot of filmmakers i admire and and if there was

someone who could take it in a sense make it their own and yeah they're definitely something i would consider yeah i have done quite a bit of producing in the past sure and and particularly in television and I enjoy it, it's, it's, um, if the project is, um, it depends on the project, it depends on the person, but yeah. And what about playing in other people's sandboxes in terms of, have you, do you, have you met with like the Marvel and D.C. and Star Wars folks? Like, have you ever, have you explored any of those? No, the D.C. films, obviously, with Justice League and Warner's, and my home studios,

as it were, is, is Warner Brothers, who've been there for, Yeah, well, since the first Mad Max, effectively, so it's 35 years. Yeah. What's your appetite for, well, let's talk specifically action filmmaking today. We talked a little bit about the accelerated amount of cuts that are in action films. Do you feel like, I mean, are you kind of dulled, have your senses dulled by watching what's produced today? Are you excited by what you're seeing? If it's kind of lazy and formulaic, of course, we all get glazed over when we're watching.

them. But if it's got some new take, it's pushing the language in some way, or just exactly the analogy of music, you know, someone comes along and does something that really is in command of what they're trying to do and, you know, and you hear something new. It's like the term uniquely familiar. It's still based on what's come before, but somehow has a new slant on it, and it's powerful and compelling and so obviously yeah the same with filmmakers but the filmmakers i tend towards are the very very strong montage guys or girls who are really strong on syntax what's the last couple that have struck your fancy in terms of well i'm you know having come out of animations i'm a big fan of the pixars and the dream works which which you know the great thing you know

Polanski said there's only one perfect place for the camera at any given moment in the movie and when you're working digitally in animations particularly where you can experiment you can really modify that camera at very little cost same performance same everything but you can actually adjust the performance or you can adjust the experience through the camera that's that's a really great exercise and so when when people do that at the at their best that that's to me sort of the top filmmaking so i just i just saw the new pixar inside out which is pete doctors yeah did to up and so on that montage i mean that's like that sequence early on in that film of like the the couple kind of growing up together is just like

transcendent oh yeah remarkable yeah and and and all all those guys i mean they just they just pushed cinema further through through that new digital dispensation and uh And, yeah, that's great to see. I mean, as I said earlier, it's an evolving language. So what format or technique or technology are you dying to use that you have not yet had a chance? I mean, I remember there was a time where you talked about an anime version, for instance, of Max. Yeah, that's something that. But I wouldn't have the skill to do anime.

I would sort of, you know, certainly have input, but I wouldn't have, you know, the Japanese. They're Japanese, the masters of that. Yeah. Any other technologies or any other aspects of filmmaking today that weren't available 10 or 20 years ago that you are, just as a filmmaker. Well, I'm just fascinated by how cameras are getting smaller and higher resolution.

You've got GoPro now, I understand it's 4K, which is more than we're seeing in the movies today. And I think, you know, as the cameras get smaller, you're going to be able to do stuff that you would, And in a sense, cheaper than you would have been able to do in the past. So that's really interesting to me. And then on the other side, I guess, is like, have they been able to shrink the IMAX cameras yet? I mean, I heard they're doing, like, the next Avengers film purely in IMAX.

In IMAX? Like, the entire film. I'm not aware that they've shrunk it. I mean, that's massive to be able to, they're massive cameras. We were going to shoot this native 3D, and we really made small cameras, and we were going to delay the convergence where the eye looks in or out of the screen in post when it's the most sensible place to do it

and the cameras were fairly cumbersome we were able to get them inside the cabin of the war rig where we spent quite a bit of time but even they weren't they were still too big and we decided against it particularly if we

only had six of them We had to, they were purpose built, and, you know, it was a good decision because had we lost two of them, it would have cramped, you know, you can't build one quickly. Whereas we ended up shooting with cameras, which, if you smashed a crash camera, you put them in jeopardy, and you smash a camera, you could go to the airport in Namibia and buy another one for $1,500, well, $1,500. Oh, wow. So, yeah.

Not the big, expensive cameras, but so on. So it's cumbersome. And sometimes I think the technology, you've got to be, whenever there's new technology, you've got to be really careful. It doesn't really, it's not the tail that wags the dog. Sure. You know, I know the first six months, if you go back and read what happened in Hollywood, for the first six months with the advent of sound, the sound recordist ruled the roost.

He told the camera where to go. He told the actors where to stand. and he told them how to speak. And then the directors said, wait a moment, this is, this is technology getting out of hand. So they,

you know, they basically step back into it. Right. So you're just going to be careful of the technology. It's why I frankly, as a film geek, like I respect, you know,

among the people that I admire most, are including you, and I think of someone like James Cameron, Zemeckas, and people that are just constantly throughout their career are curious and don't, and, you know, could certainly make a, you know, two people sitting in a room dynamic and

interesting, but you want to keep it interesting for yourself too. Yeah, definitely. Right? Yeah. Last thing, and I know you've been very generous with your time. But on the, on working with actor side of things, I mean, looking at the kind of actors you've worked with over your career, like you've worked with some really fascinating and frankly, sometimes difficult is probably too strong a word, but like strong personalities.

You think of someone like Nicholson, I think of Nolte on Lorenzo's Oil. You know, Tom is certainly idiosyncratic Mel, of course. Do you find, like, did you find that you learn the language of working with actors over the years? Did that's something that always came naturally? And were you tested by those kind of strong personalities throughout and have to learn sort of how to handle them in the right way? Well, obviously you learn. You better learn if you do it. But I've got to tell you, Jack Nicholson and Nick Nolte were tremendous privileges.

I had tremendous privilege working with them. They both had learnt a lot from their lives and were very considered. I mean, Jack is a sage. He taught me, going through that movie, he taught me so much about life that I still apply to life today. And in his case, he is a filmmaker From the get-go He said, you're not just getting an actor You're getting someone who's going to get this movie made

He was so true to his word He would turn up on his off days Just to do off-camera lines For the three witches Susan, Michelle and Cher He was, when we hit some Flack with the studio When we hit Flack with the studio

He was there basically running interference for me, coaching me. It was one of the most privileged experience I ever had in my life. And ditto someone like Nick. I mean, he was just determined to do a great, great job. And talk about fearless performances, I think, of those two, in particular for Witches of Eastwick and Lorenzo, what Nick was doing with the accent and then, you know, what Jack is doing. Like, you have to have, you know, confidence in your own, in your director. but also in your own abilities to be able to go for.

Yeah, when an actor has no fear, then you're in that lucky position where you're kind of a coach watching a great athlete. You're just trying to guide them into experience and you let them run. And so when, and these are actors who have no fear. So it's just, that is definitely one of the joys. So I've, so I've, for the most part,

I've really, you know, they would never, these guys, you know, they don't have long careers unless they're really serious about what they do. And so you just know that. It's all about the work. And so, yeah, I've been very lucky. And you can add Tom and Charlize, who we haven't mentioned, but we should very quickly just to say. Tom, I mean, Tom is very daring. And, you know, God, he told me the other days, after doing it.

all the stuff you do you're going to take on Elton John. Is that right? I mean, how can he take on Elton John? I mean, play Elton John. Yeah, he just played twins in a film. He just played twins in the movie and stuff. And Charlize, you know, is just fearless.

I mean, she's fearless. She'll, she has the, you know, she was an accomplished ballet dancer and she has the skill of, you know, that discipline and so on. And, you know, she's the one saying, I want to shave off my hair. Right. You know, she's a warrior.

She wouldn't mess with hair in the desert and the heat. Right. Well, as I said before, I mean, purely from a filmmaking standpoint and as pure cinema, as you refer to it, I mean, this film works. And it's a new standard in action for 2015, I feel. But also, like, it wouldn't work without these kind of relationships and the story that you've created here and the performances that they've delivered. It's truly, truly an awesome feat. And it's, it's, it's such a privilege to talk to you about all of this. Thank you so much for stopping by.

This is great. That's, that's very kind. Thank you. Thank you. And don't, don't take 15 more years of thinking about the next one. Just get to it. I'm selfish that way. I don't have that much time.

Oh, thank you. That's, what a great interview. So much fun. Thank you so much, sir. That's the show, guys. I'm Josh Horowitz. This has been happy, say I confused. Hope you've enjoyed the show.

Hit me up on Twitter. Joshua Horowitz, go over to wolfpop.com, check out all the amazing shows over there. And most importantly, check back in next week for another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Executive produced by Adam Sacks, Matt Gourley, and Paul Shear. Goodbye, summer movies, hello fall. I'm Anthony Devaney. And I'm his twin brother, James. We host Raiders of the Lost Podcast, the Ultimate Movie Podcast,

and we are ecstatic to break down late summer and early fall releases. We have Leonardo DiCaprio leading a revolution in one battle after another, Timothy Salome playing power ping pong in Marty Supreme. Let's not forget Emma Stone and Jorgos Lanthamos' Bugonia. Dwayne Johnson, he's coming for that Oscar in The Smashing Machine, Spike Lee and Denzel teaming up again, plus Daniel DeLuis's return from retirement. There will be plenty of blockbusters to chat about two. Tron Aries looks exceptional, plus Mortal Kombat 2, and Edgar Wright's The Running Man starring Glenn Powell. Search for Raiders of the Lost podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube.