Happy Sad Confused - Guillermo del Toro

Episode Date: October 5, 2015

One of our best living filmmakers, Guillermo del Toro joins Josh to talk about his new romantic gothic horror film Crimson Peak, encountering the supernatural in the haunted Waitomo Caves Hotel in New Zealand, being heavily influenced by Alfred Hitchcock and George Miller, and the possibility of a third Hellboy film in the future. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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I'm Josh Horowitz, and welcome to my weekly podcast where I talk to extremely talented, charming, and thrilling people. Like this week's guest, Guillermo del Toro. Really excited about this one. He is one of our greatest living filmmakers. I would say he's one of our best dead filmmakers, too, if you were, like, just looking at all filmmakers living and dead. What do you guys think, Joel, Sammy? I don't think he's dead. No, I know he's not dead.

I guess my point is I don't want to qualify it. Literally can't believe you think he's dead. No, come closer to the mic. Joel's sick, and we're sharing a mic, so I'm like, I don't know. Yeah, you're not in a good situation. Welcome back to the intro to the podcast, Sammy and Joel. You were such a hit last week that by popular demand, i.e. the Heller family. You are back this week.

That out to Neil Heller? Oh, God. Yeah, we had a good time last week talking about Mr. Ben Schwartz starring in the Walk. People are loving the Walk. And now we're here to talk about Guillermo and a lot of exciting things going on. First, Guillermo, we should mention, is promoting a fantastic new film. I'm in love with this movie called Crimson Peak, stars all of our favorite people, right? Your boyfriend.

Don't perpetuate this. Your favorite person in the world. You're playing into the fan base out there that likes to imagine. that Tom and I have some kind of strange love affair? That's not the term. I'm an appreciator of his work. He's an appreciator of mine.

That's simply all it is. Tom Hiddleston, Jessica Chastain, Mia Vashikowska, Charlie Hunnam. It is a truly great film. I can't wait to see the film again. What are you mouthing, Sam? I love Charlie Hunnam. Oh, God.

And Mia Wachikowska. Yeah. I'd say Vashikowska. Vaschowski. That you mispronounced it there. No, that's how her true fan. That's what our fans are called. Oh, the Vashikowska.

The Vachakowsk, that our team name is. The movie comes out, October 16th. I'm definitely going to see it again and again because it's a really great piece of work. I think it's one of my favorite of Guillermo. He says it's one of his, you'll hear in the podcast, he says it's one of his top three of his own work, just being self-analytical. He says, I think Pan's Labyrinth and Devil's Backbone on this one. So that should tell you all you need to know, as if that film needs to be sold to you. And if it does, I don't trust your opinion anyway.

Joel. I agree with that, those numbers. Zero numbers worth that. No, one, two, and three. What else is worth talking about this week? Well, let's see. But I know, I know you have a relationship with Guillermo. Yes.

Did he invite you back to the man, care? Oh, that's an excellent question. So here's the thing. Okay, so this is a running thing, and I hope, Guillermo, I hope you're listening to this. I know you're not, but I hope you're listening to this. I have interviewed Guillermo de Toro ever since I came to MTV, which is near nine years ago now. And he is one of the nicest human beings on the planet. He, like, gives you these giant hugs, and he's just, like, just a huge, great spirit.

And he, I've been probably interviewed him, like, 30 times. And I would say 27 of those times includes an invitation to his so-called man cave, as he puts it. So he has, I think he has a home. I know he has a home. He lives somewhere. But he also has, like... In our hearts, yeah. But he also has something he calls the man cave, which, from all accounts, is amazing, filled with memorabilia.

stuff from his own films, stuff from stuff that he admires. And I truly think it's a psychological torture that he's doing to me because every time I see him, he says, when are you coming to the man cave, Josh? And I always say, any time, to which a normal human being would say, okay, here's my number, come by or something. Maybe you should say, how do I get there? No, it's, that's part of it. Josh has to figure out how to get there.

And it's like, well, I haven't. It's take nine years. I still haven't. Like if you go back and watch all 30 of the interviews, there's a clue in each one as to how to get to the man cave. And it's like all there. And you're just too dumb to be. It could very well be because at this point now it's like it's just like a drinking game to see how soon into the conversation he invites me to the man cave. Joel and I've been there.

No, don't show. That's not funny. He shows the devil's backbone. He watched Pan's Labyrinth. He actually has the guy with the no eyes in his man cave. It was, don't, I feel like that was the hardest we ever laughed was the night we hung out with GDT in the man cave. Like, oh, my God, do you remember what he said about Josh? Okay, okay.

But I do have a follow-up question. Yeah. Who's a better hugger, GDT or Shailene Woodley? Oh, those are two master huggers. That's a really good question. Well, G.T's a bigger dude, so he's there's more. Makes you feel small. Yeah, so it's like if you want to be the little spoon.

Yeah, if you want to feel safe and a little spoon, like that's your, that's your hug. If you want, you know, more of a feminine sort of kind of sweet hug, go Shailene. They're both great. Okay. You have to pay. I didn't mean to ask such a controversial question. I apologize. Also worth mentioning, we're very proud of the latest after hours we put up just as we

tape this just the other day. It's called Camp Mocking Jay with Jennifer Lawrence and Josh Hutcherson, Liam Hemsworth. If you haven't checked it out, please do. It's on the MTV News YouTube page. Got on a lot of pickup. We're very thrilled with it. You get to see Jennifer Lawrence stuffed head. marshmallows in her mouth and that's something worth everyone's time i would say yeah that's speak for

yourself i mean quick follow-up yeah please when i was in um college i was dared to do an entire bag of jumbo marshmallows and i fit what does that mean do an entire bag that's like fit put it fit it in my mouth and and i fit 16 you were the saddest sorority ever yeah it was like it was like on a friday night we're like let's go crazy god and i just want to say that like she did 10 and And that's great. I don't, that's great. But I feel like everyone's acting like that's amazing. And it's not that.

But you guys should watch it anyway. To be fair, being in such close proximity to seeing what was happening, it wasn't like there was, it didn't seem like there was more room. Like, she was truly gagging at the end. Yeah, but she had like a, there's a form to do it. Like you can like make the marshmallows smaller and then kind of stuff them into like the crevice. Dipping the hot dog in the water, you're saying. Yeah, I'm like the Kobe Ashley's. I believe you. You could probably do it. I would say 16 to 18.

Absolutely. Joel actually has 16 in his mouth right now during this introduction. That's my stasis, yeah. You never know when you're hungry. You pull it out. It's a snack. I like feel Joel's illness, like wafting towards me. Is it a cold? Do you sound a little congested? I'm okay. It started in his throat.

I don't move to congestion. It's now in his feet. in my mouth, yeah. He's a weird chain of green. It's disgusting. What else is worth mentioning? Oh, we just watched before we started taping this cut of a new after hours that's going up in a couple days as you hear this.

It's something with Hugh Jackman, and it's really funny, and I think everyone's going to enjoy it. It's tied into his new film Pan, which comes out this Friday, and look out for that. It's a good one, too. Also, there's some other good stuff. Tom Hiddleston did a fun bit with us. That's going to be up soon. Tom Hiddleston again.

Oh, stop it. Curious. The roof is in the pudding. What else to tell you guys? That's about it. I don't know. What else? What are you guys excited about? What's the next big movie you're excited about?

We're in fall movie season. Got nothing? I don't know. I feel like there's a new Hunger Games movie coming out. Do you have you heard of it? Mocking Jay Part 2. That's the subtitle. Have you seen Mocking J?

Part 2? No, no, I'm not that cool yet. They haven't screened it yet. They haven't screened it yet. Soon, hopefully. I feel like he's lying. No, no, I would tell you. I just want to be able to tell you anything about it. I'm excited. I'm about to see Steve Jobs this weekend as we tape this. That's... Yeah, I saw a preview for that last night. I went to the movies.

What did you see? Sikario. Oh, good, right? It was like very good. Super tense. Yeah, I mean, to be honest, I wanted to see the intern. Very similar. It's a good double feature. Pouting about it the whole time having to go see Sikario. Right. And then I was like, felt very cultured after. it's a it's a it's a good good movie i always love seeing benicio del torro in those like rom-com sweet you know to get to see him be like the sweet sweetheart yeah he's silly guy he is always like 10 degrees of scary like he's even for benicio this is a scary role i feel like

he's intense like says four words the whole time the four words are horrifying yeah they make you pee in your pants uh so go see cicari a lot there's a lot of good stuff out there this is a good time to be a big movie fan so um as i say Crimson Peak coming at you October 16th. Check it out. And in the meanwhile, enjoy this conversation with Guillermo de Toro in which I am not invited to the man cave. He didn't do it this time. So I guess it's over between us. You couldn't figure it out. You're really missing out. It's awesome. It's literally the fucking best. All right. Enjoy the conversation. Profanity was not needed. Sammy. I just got very excited. You're not welcomed back. I got to go. Mr. del Toro Guillermo, buddy.

Signor. It's always good to see you, man. Same here, man. Truly, I was telling you before, I'm a borderline obsessed with this one. I love it. I truly do. I am obsessed with it, and I love it too. It's one of my three favorites I've done.

Yeah, so that's, which are the third? Devils Backbone? Depends on, depends on the week, they can switch, and then Crimson Peak right out. See, I was going to say, like, when you finish a film, and this one, you had a while to kind of like tinker and get it right, say the least. A tinker, I did.

Did you really? Horrible. And to the point of, I honestly, my post-supervisor was to keep him away. It's like, let it go, Guillermo. We did 12, 12 musical sessions on the score, 12 musical sessions. We redesigned the sound three times. I mixed it three times. I color corrected it about three times more than any other movie.

Like, Pants was next to this Pants was the next one. And I color corrected the cinematography in this movie three times more. I recut it, caught it, moved it, tried it, went crazy on the previews, tried things that were much longer until I got it to where I like it, you know? Do you understand the instinct of, you know, the Ridley Scott and the George Lucas is that tinker even beyond release? Are you, at this point, are you ready to let it go, or do you still, when you see it, do you still see any things?

I saw it the other day, and there's one thing I would cut out, so. There you go. So, I mean, it's, I'm happy to hear that you're pleased with it as you should be, because I'm curious, like, when a filmmaker completes the work that they've labored on for a while, do they see the flaws? Do they see? Are they psyched about it? You seem actually psyched about it and not sick of it, which is a good sign. I think. You know, there was a moment where I really was afraid for my sanity. Why? What was happening? Because I kept coming back and saying, I'm going to need to open. We were printing the final, the final reels, you know, and I would say to the post-supervisor,

Have you printed real five? No, okay, we're going to open it again and I'm going to take this line of dialogue out. Really? I go, yeah, and to the point of obsession, you know? It's funny. I mean, you begin the film, I believe literally the first line of dialogue is what ghosts are real, right? And I feel like it's kind of, you know,

without ruining stuff for the audience, it's disingenuous, to me, I don't think of it as a ghost story. I feel like it's a story that has some ghosts involved. It's exactly what she says to the publisher. It's not a ghost story. It's a story with a ghost in it. And look, Gothic romance in general is very important to understand. Gothic romance is not a horror film.

It's atmospherically like a dark fairy tale with supernatural atmosphere and elements and scares, but it doesn't function as a horror film. And at the same time, Gothic Romance is not pure romance. Gothic romance was born out of the will to marry love and death. Yeah. And a nostalgic sense of loss. So it's a hugely romantic movie, but with a lot of darkness. Well, that's what I was going to say is, like, you've described yourself, and I think it's apt.

Like, you're not a cynical filmmaker. You're very much a romantic that happens to just also love darkness, and there's some horrific imagery in all your films. But it comes from a romantic place, which is an interesting juxtaposition. I get high on my own supply. I truly, truly use my product. And I feel that even in something, when you approach an idea as insane as specific rim, yeah and robots, Ryan Monsters, I do it straight. I believe in Giant Robots, I believe in, I'm not being ironic or postmodern.

Same with Gothic romance. I think the movie has this heightened tone of melodrama, and I went for broke for it, you know? Plus, you threw in Tom Hiddleston's rear end. Yeah, well, he was very, very eager to throw the rear end. He suggested one day, how about, I just dropped out today? Can I be naked for the breakfast scene? No, Tom. We've got to wait for the love scene.

Can I be naked in the walls? No, Tom. Wait for the love scene. The subplot, the subtext that I'm a nudist throughout the entire film. That doesn't work. I think he was toning those buds. He is a great romantic hero for this kind of it. He fits this to a tea.

He does. And look, I can tell you two or three ways to make Crimson Peak eminently more of a commercial ride that I don't take. You know, like you give the ghosts a moral or religious weight. They are evil, they're demonic, they're whatever. I refuse to that. Ghosts are used in a really interesting way that relates to Devil's Bagone, actually, if people watch them.

And the other thing is, instead of making the villains so hateful at the end that you want them to die, you create an empathy. And you know, little by little, and the same was in Devil's Back one. You give them their most humane moments as the movie advances, and it makes for a more moral gray area, but I'm really happy with that. Are you a believer yourself in supernatural and ghosts? I have, I mean, I have experienced that, and I believe. Because, and everybody in my family, most people have experienced that, you know.

I don't know if it's in the water, but in Mexico, it's more useful to encounter the strange and the supernatural. What's the one that sticks out? Is there one incident that you think of? Well, the one that sticks out was when we were scouting the Hobbit in New Zealand. I always got, when I stay in hotels, I look for the hunted room and in Whitomo, and you can do it yourself if you go to Wellington. New Zealand. In Waitomo, there is a hotel, the Waitomo Hotel, and there is a room, I think, is 12 C, where it's famously a haunted room. And it was closed. The hotel was closed for the season. It was eight of us. And the manager opened the hotel, really angry that they were

making her open the hotel, gave us the keys and said, go. And I said, can I get the hunted room? And she said, there you go. I'm watching the wire. I'm watching Omar and Stringer bell like doing a parlay you know sure nothing haunting about it and my Mac and all of a sudden and it's in the movie in Crimson Peak I hear a horrible murder in the bathroom horrible a like screams just like a woman screaming like you have never heard those screams is a huge pain and then I get up I look I trace it to a vent in the wall I listen and it's a vent that goes to the cellar of the building I get really jittery, but I sit down and ready to admit Stringer Bell into my life again.

And I hear a guy sobbing loudly with regret. And then I put the earphones and I watched the whole season. The only time the wire is like a respite is like, it's like, it's the nice place to go. Whoever got killed, I didn't care. It's a romantic comedy now. Because the room had a huge window on balcony. And I swore, I was saying, I didn't want to. go out into the corridors. I said, I don't know where the other seven people are. And I'm not

going to be running like Danny in the tricycle looking for who is there. And I swore that if I lifted my eyes from the computer to the balcony, there was going to be somebody knocking slowly in the window. No, I'm not going to do that. And the next day you left the Hobbit Project. This was in Hormon. I didn't sleep, and the next day we continued scouting up north. You mentioned sounds. I mean, like, the sound design in this film is impeccable. too. I kept thinking of like the, all those strange noises in a house that creep you out and everybody has this growing up or to this day. What are the banal ordinary sounds that get under your skin? Are there any, are there like sounds that kind of creep you out just for a...

There's, believe it or not, one of the ghosts, what we did is we grabbed the cooing of a baby and which is very creepy to put it on top of a skeleton figure. Right. For example, the buzzing of a fly freaks me out for some reason. It's in the movie. And then there is a, uh, and then there is a low frequency that affects us as mammals. I think it's a frequency that we used to sense as earthquakes or volcanoes. So it's ingrained in our DNA to react with fear to that low frequency. So that freaks me out too. So since we have some time, I want to go back a little bit and jump around to the career. We've talked many times over the years, but this is kind of like this is your life, Guillermo Totoro. I want to go back to the beginning. So like, who is the

biggest influence on your life, like growing up in terms of like pop culture? Who did you worn your take, who did you inherit some tastes from or some proclivities? Well, look, I studied very carefully Hitchcock. You cannot see it in my work, but I studied Hitchcock a lot. I liked that he was Catholic and repressed and fat, but also I love that he really could verbalize what he was doing, and it didn't get in the way of the work of art. I love that. I liked that he seemed to be a reflexive artist that could articulate what he was doing.

huge influence George Miller, for example, strangely enough. I mean, I still emotionally, my favorite movie of all times is either Frankenstein or the World Warrior. And if the world was burning, I would probably grab the Road Warrior.

As a how-to manual to survive the apocalypse? I remember the same weekend, I saw the Road Warrior and Blade Runner, and I came out of both instances transformed. And I was in Vegas. And in the roller,

I came out and I laid next to the payment, to see the grain of the pavement. I mean, I think that movie transformed a lot of people of my generation. Same with Blade Runner, man. When, I think I saw you last, we actually I think we mentioned Fury Road. I think we were both obsessed with what George was able to do on that one.

At that age. That's what I was going to say. In recent years, you've seen people like Scorsese and you've seen George Miller. Wolf on Wall Street. You know, they're directing like their 25-year-olds that have never directed before. Is that, I mean, is that something that you worry about? Like, how do you, like,

steer yourself towards that as opposed to running out of ideas. I have the great advantage that I was directing like I was 70 when I was 20. So you're going to reverse? You're Benjamin Buttoning. I think that is beautiful because there are... When you have people that are in love with the craft and you sense that these are people, George Miller is a fully undomesticated animal. It's a tiger that has not known a cage.

Right. Matt Max was the stories about schedule and units and it just went for it. It felt like like Warner Brothers just gave him like $150 million, sent him to Nobibia and he just brought back this amazing piece of art. Amazing piece of art. I mean, it's almost Max de Soleil, you know, like balletic and acrobatic and, you know? Totally. So when you're growing up, my math also, like you mentioned Blade Run and Road Warrior, Star Wars came out probably when you were like 12 over 13 or something.

Does that naturally blow the brain off? of the Amidatoro? Well, what happened is I went to the first showing, I think it was 10 a.m. And I went around the blog, and I went to the second showing, and I went around the blog, and I went to every showing that day,

consecutive. And because it was, when nobody still, it was not, people were not saying, you gotta see it. Right. The world was much slower before the summer movies. Right. And I watched it all day long.

And I was dying to get a toy. It was like, Surgically implanted in me to want toys. Yeah. And it's because George, George did, for the first time in an efficient way, a future that felt used. Like, even Kubrick with 2001, which is impeccable and perfect. Yeah. It's a beautiful movie, but everything is new.

Yeah. Oil drips are not there. And I think George broke that mold, followed almost immediately by alien, Ridley Scott. Yeah. Who made it truckers in space, you know, with oil drips. and bad repair jobs and steam coming out. I mean, I think that made science fiction real, wearing it down. Before that, it was people in two-toos, you know,

speaking in strange tongues with shiny apparatus and rides. This is the moment... It was lived in. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, we talked how, like, you've been offered virtually every kind of comic book franchise at various points over the career. Is Star Wars a universe that, like, is too sacred in a way

that you would want to play with? Have you talked to them at all? No, I really, I feel strangely more and more inclined lately to go and do more strange stuff. Like, do stuff that is a little more cagey, a little more quirky. I don't know. When I spoke to them, I spoke with John Knoll about it, and I said, if I ever do one, I would love to do Java the Hodge's Scarface. His ascension in the crime family.

Totally. But it's not, it's not a plan. It's not, I'm not announcing the police. Don't pick it off. But it does feel like, yeah. Like, I wouldn't pick you necessarily to do, like, episode nine. But, yeah, I feel like you could rather give you... I love monsters.

Yeah, you should give your flavor to some side, bizarre story. I just love monsters. Yeah. And Java is, A, basically my same shirt size. And second, I love it, man. Jumping around a bit. I refreshed. I watched Kronos last week for the first time in a long while.

It still holds up. It's an amazing piece of work. When that came, and you got a lot of accolades off of that, I believe you were celebrated in Cann for it. Yes. We won the Critics Week, yeah. Was that a relief because it was like you've been building towards this? And what happens if it comes out and no one cares? I tell you, I went to Kronos.

I went to Kronos. I was 27, 28. And our promotional budget for Ken was 10 posters and a roll of scotch tape. And I said to my wife, you think 10 posters would be enough? She says, I think more than enough. We come out of the plane. We were to come out of the plane, and Arnold Schwarzenegger, in the last section of here, is floating over the bay with a thought of shotgun, giant billboards, and I go, I go restaurant

to restaurants, and can I glue my poster in your window? Yes or no? And I glue the posters, and then I say, how many movies are in Critics Week? And they were like a hundred, and all of them were nominated for the prize. And I said, all right, let's enjoy the song. then we win. I mean, it's a, it changed my life. You know, two times I felt that moved. The other time was when we finished Kronos with a, we asked for a loan, personally, of a quarter of a million dollars on a 20-something year old. And my house was a guarantee, blah, blah, blah. And when we won a contest where the first price was like a hundred and something,

I stood there with the giant check like Miss Universe crying and saying thank you thank you and those are the beginnings and the beginnings are very delicate I think it never stops being delicate

but the first and second movie are the hardest if the first one's good then everybody says let's see what he does on the second one merciful for me I did mimic you went through it between those you had both ends of the spectrum that's just like there you go guys

but you know it's the second And it's difficult. Clearly, and it was for you. I mean, there was a lot going on. I mean, your personal life, too. That was around the time when your dad was taken for 72 days. An insane story. So when did you know that project was going to hell? Can I make? Yeah. Oh, you know, I got the sense of it one day when I got into a conference call. I know we were in a conference table and Michael Phillips, one of the producers, for the longest time, they were Bark Beatles. that fed on the trees of Central Park, and they propagated a disease through the air, blah, blah. And then Michael Phillips says, why did we make them cockroaches? And I just felt, this is the end.

That's it, and then everybody said, that's a great idea in New York. And I said, listen, I said this, I really did. I said, from now on, no matter what we do, we're gonna be the giant roach movie. Oh, no, no, no, are you wrong, this is where? And what did we? Where were we? The Giant Roach movie.

Would you ever work with the White's themes again, or is that too much? You know, we have a friendship. I mean, we get along. We see each other. You know, I never say never, right? I mean, part of me loves Bob, and I love Harvey. Yeah. I really get along with Harvey. Since then, it seems to me looking at what you've produced since then, you really haven't made any compromises. Like, do you ever feel like you have had to make a compromise artistically on any of your projects?

Never again, never again, every movie, if you like it or hate it, is my fault. You know, I think that from then on I've been free. Hey, guys, time to take a break from Happy Say and Fuse to tell you about our sponsor today, Lute Crate. Would you classify yourself as a geek, gamer, or pop culture nerd? I know I would. All three, check, check, and check. Well, then, Lute Crate is the subscription box for you. Lute Crate is a subscription box service with over $40.

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cutoff happens, and that's it. It's over. So go to lukecrate.com slash happy and enter the code happy to save $3 on your new subscription today. exploit what was a personal, you know, hardship for your entire family, but the incident with your dad, is that something that colors though your work you think in any way? Does it, I mean, you've never, you've decided never to kind of, like,

do a story about it in any way? But do you feel like it informs any of your work in any way? I don't know how, I mean, it probably does. I mean, look, the fact is I can explain my movies to a certain degree, but that's my reading. The movies have or must have another reading that somebody else need to do if they're interested. I'm not, you know, I, when people say, oh, you know, you classify them this way and maybe it's a simplistic way or not, but that's how I articulate them.

Yeah. There must have a second reading. I mean, there is an extreme preoccupation with death, of course. But I'm not sure it permeated. It made me a better person, that's for sure. How so? What, just an appreciating? It's weird because until my dad was kidnapped, I have his shadow over me in a big way.

Like, I was his son. He was a very famous man. He was a big man. And then when he came out, I was a man and he was a man. Just another guy. And I loved him, but he was not this childhood giant. It was a guy that I loved, you know. So it was very different.

What about having kids? Does that change? I mean, certainly it certainly doesn't feel like your films have softened in any way. No, but I actually became incredibly sensitive to the... to female protagonists, to actresses, to what they do in my films. If I didn't have my kids, I wouldn't have been able to do Pan's Labyrinth.

I wouldn't have been able to do Crimson Peak, which is incredibly female-centric, you know. And I'm very aware of the power of my wife, my daughters, just their power is so strong. And I always wonder how can any artist is represent women in any other way but strong because everybody around me, my mother, everybody, all the women I know are strong and powerful

and full of a core that we lack. Yeah, you've got two great performances in this one, Mia and Jessica, I know it's a great acting stretch for her because in real life she's always smiling and in this film I don't think she smiles once. Yeah, and look, I made it very clear to both of them and you're going to represent two sides of love and two sides of love, not towards a man,

just two sides of an understanding love, and they need to be fully convinced that each of them is right. Sure. Like each of them needed to be the protagonist in her own mind, you know? We talk about not making compromises because I think of Hellboy, where you really stood fast with your soulmate, Mr. Ron. Another eight years.

And he was someone that was not necessarily the studio's pick, to say the least. When I used to say, I used to say, Ron Perlman, they say the owner of Reblen, not the actor, the guy. Well, that would bark it in the thing, too. It would be perfect. But they weren't like Vin Diesel, right? Did they ever, did you ever consider it? Nicholas Cage, Vin Diesel, the Rock, you know. Did they make a compelling argument for any of those?

Were you tempted at all? No, no. I mean, I really, I just said, look, I would tell Ron, I would tell Ron, I'm going to take the meeting, but don't worry. And then I would take the meeting and so I'd rather go with Ron. And then every time they would come back, I had a meeting with a super powerful production, producer and he said, your movie is greenlit, but it's not going to be Ron Parliament. That's all I'm asking, same script.

And I said, this is not my movie. I mean, and I always had the certainty after MIMIC. See, Mimic did that for me. Mimic taught me the most powerful word in the English language. No. And the thing is, at the end of the day, your name is on the movie, you're responsible. You can tell stories or I can tell you, oh, that needs you. If you didn't bail, if you stayed and your name is on it, don't tell me,

you own the crap. The last couple of years at Comic-Con, you've pulled the audience on Hellboy, Ron's been actively trying to get this going lately. Has the studio expressed any interest? Is it all from you guys? Like, is there any... The last serious conversation I had a Hellway 3

was with Ron Perlman at a coffee bin in Ventura. It doesn't get any more official than that. That's how movies are green-huff. That's practically grim. So, you know, it was Ron with his vanilla Frappuccino about, what, four weeks ago.

Right. I mean, I adore that guy, man. I mean, he really is my brother. And I would love to do it. I would love to do Hellboy 3. And I frankly, honestly, part of me is maybe not savvy enough, but I understand why they do it, because the two Hellboys made a lot of money on DVD and Blu-ray.

They made enough money theatrically, but the DVD and Blu-ray markets are gone. But I honestly think, I may be alluded, that there is, the character has grown into an audience that really wants it. And also the international markets have exploded, and I feel like that's a character that transcends, can transcend. I mean, I would do it in a second, but no one's, no one's notging. And Ron is on this almost religious... That's a good crusade, yeah. Don't get in his way.

I don't. I tell you, I'll do anything for that guy, man. In the course of my being at MTV, it kind of coincided with what was probably a frustrating period of time for you. I mean, we were talking a lot during the development of the Hobbit, etc. Two years, yeah. Yeah, and there's that like... Mantos of Madder right after. And so there will always, for good or for bad, there will always be that, what, five or six-year gap in your directing resume.

How were you able to reconcile that? Because that must have been the grayish source of frustration for you. It feels at times like you've been cursed as a filmmaker in more than others. The reality is that my projects had reported and announced more than others. I can tell you the three movies that Alfonso tried and didn't do in his six years between children of man and gravity. And he was going to do one called a man in his shoe, a boy on his shoe, and another one that was about a bunch of teenagers and blah, blah, blah. And they don't get reported. For some reason, I get reported, I get announced, and then I have to own the fact that they happen or not happen. But it happens to everyone.

I mean, the gap exists there, but I kind of felt good about the gap because I co-wrote three novels, produced three films, produced two animated films. I was not exactly sitting on my lawyer. core wrote the trilogy, you know, and I designed my two Hobbit movies completely, you know, as much as I could, and I left all that, all that there. But I actually, the thing that hurts for me is Bountains of Madness. Yeah. That one hurts because that's a horror movie. Like Crimson Peak is not a horror movie.

Now, Mantis of Madness is a horror movie. It was going to be a scary movie and a beautiful movie. And infamously, you were like a week or two. away with like Tom Cruise attached and all of this. I was with Jim Cameron producing. Yeah. I mean, I,

that in the 80s with Carolco. Exactly. So any movement lately on Mountains of Madness? Is that one of those things? Again, like the coffee mean, I had dinner with Jim and he said, what are we going to do about it? You know, Don Murphy and Susan Montfort,

always great allies, always keep it alive. And, you know, what I say is let's do it when it's absolutely short. Because I honestly, I don't want to be dramatic, but it hurt a lot. And I don't know if I could be disappointed on that project again. What about the feelings for The Hobbit at this point? Have you ever sat down and watched the three?

No, no, I haven't. And Peter and I are in a great relationship. We have a very clean relationship and communication. We're very friendly. And I think it's a sign of respect for me. It's almost like, you know, watching footage of your ex-wife on the beach. You know, exactly why do you want to watch?

If it's good, it's bad. If it's worse, it's worse. And there's no upside to it. And I respect and love his work as a filmmaker. And, you know, I'd rather be happy that I was part of it. Sure. So Pacific Room, which was the largest in terms of scale of a film that you've done. Was it at all difficult to could retain kind of like your creativity, your control over that as the scale exponentially grew?

Nope. that movie is fully in my control. No, it feels totally, it doesn't feel compromised in any way. I hate to not have great anecdotes, but that movie, if you hate it or love it, I did it. And it was great. It was really hard to gauge the marketing of that movie because I always felt that the robots were pushed to the front

and the monsters were not, they were almost kept like a secret. Sure. And I think the whole concept what attracted me was, Monsters and robots. That's what made my 11-year-old mental light bulb go up. Right. And, you know, I'll never, I'll never, I'll never know exactly if it could have been different. It was, you know, a lot was made about the tracking, and tracking doesn't mean popularity. It means people knowing about it. We tested incredibly high. We got a great cinema score, meaning audiences were connecting, but no one knew. I mean, when the movie was open,

we were below grown-ups too in terms of awareness right now it's awareness and that's that's that's a thing that worried me because I would have loved for people to know more about it well it's a crazy world when like what a film gross is like around 400 globally and it's a gray area whether you get the green light or not for a sequel yeah 411 it's pretty good for it's still my highest-grossing movie and an original property I mean that's at a And, you know, legendary always, you know, the reason why they started Pacific Rim 2 is they showed me, look, we've made more money than this, this, and this huge franchise's first movie. Sure.

The fact is what we need to do on the second one is you need to use everything we learned and make it for as tight a budget as you can and go for it, you know. So as we said here today, I know in the last couple of days it's been talked about whether this is a Go project or not or it's on the shelf. It's certainly not my next movie. It's definitely not. No, because with the push, you push the release date, so I feel compelled to go and do something small and weird. And then, because I need like a breather and a little more madness. But in three weeks, we are delivering a budget on a schedule.

Yeah. And the new draft of the scrimpling. And then the studio knows how much it costs. what is it about, and then they'll decide if they go ahead or not. Is the small, weird one, something specific? Because you had mentioned doing like a black and white thing that was... You know, I've learned, and you know, I've learned it through the years. You want to make God laugh, tell me what your next movie is.

So, I'm curious, just talking filmmakers. You talked about Hitchcock, talked about George Miller. You've mentioned before in every great filmmaker would mention him, Stanley Kubrick as an influence. Kubrick, Camero, and Bonuel, Spielberg, Polanski. Buster Keaton, Chaplin, Chaplin. I mean, who's the filmmaker that's no longer with us that you wish you could bend the ear of a little bit? Who would you want to talk to?

I would love to have met Hitchcock, or Bono. Yeah. I mean, they are really, really, people I find very interesting as people, you know. What's your favorite Hitchcock film? Depends on which side of Hitchcock. The great action Hitchcock is either 39 steps or northern northwest. The great melodrama, Hitchcock, I would say, is notorious. say is notorious. The great sort of Americana, Hitchcock, that defines Hitchcock, is shadow of a doubt,

without a doubt, or strangers in a train. Sure. His gothic romance in a strange way is not Rebecca, but suspicion. And one of my favorite late year films is frenzy. And my favorite film growing up of Hitchcock was The Birds, or I Confessed. So, I mean, I really... There's something for every mood. It is, and Hitchcock is, Hitchcock is not a filmmaker. Hitchcock is cinema. Yeah. It's the whole of cinema in one single author.

Do you, I mean, do you feel, it's kind of fascinating to think, like, cinema is a very young art form still and evolving exponentially. And we've talked over the years about video games and you, and you were a proponent. You know, you've said before this is an area where creativity is really exploding. There will be, yeah. I mean, what do you, do you worry about the cinematic experience, about will it look the same in 50 years, will it, will people be going to theaters together and? Well, it's like owning a horse table and being worried about automobiles. I mean, progress is progress, isn't it?

I mean, language evolves, art evolves, and it evolves with technology. So we are facing a change, no doubt about it. Now, I say, if everybody keeps making it. making great movies like Miller and Scorsese and Alfonso and Alejandro, everybody. You know, I happen to think, another one is Ridley Scott for me. Ridley Scott, I'm maybe in the minority, but I'm a huge fan of the counselor, and I've seen it probably 30 times. Oh, that's a crazy, amazing movie.

I know it, I know it perfectly and so forth. So, you know, just, I think everybody should keep making the best movies they can. And the art form will change. Now, one day, one day we will be all people that did operetta, for sure, because that's in the cards. Well, it's interesting. I mean, you mentioned Ridley, I just saw The Martian, which is like talking about a filmmaker pushing himself.

I mean, from a visual standpoint, of course, it's amazing. It's got more humor than virtually any of his films ever to sort of see somebody pushing themselves in an area that maybe people don't think of themselves, them for. Like, is there a genre that you appreciate as a fan that you don't necessarily? really feel like you have the tools to excel in? Oh, yes, many. I mean, of course.

I mean, I would, musical, I'd like it. I mean, but can I make a parenthesis there? Because another movie of him that I admire enormously is Prometheus. And in the same way that I battle very much to say, Crimson Peak is not horror, it's gothic romance, blah, blah, Prometheus is one of the greatest adventure movies of the last two decades. Why do you think there's so much hate?

Because I actually agree with you. I really enjoy Pramagius. It happens to me. In terms of alien and they just, it was that. It's like Robert Louis Stevenson, Four Feathers, Joseph Conrad, Scope Adventure. It's an amazing. It happens to be in space. It happens to be in the universe of alien.

But it's an adventure film of people breaking molds and going places that they shouldn't be. It's really fascinating. And I just think the guy is amazing. And I think he's getting better and better, and his filmography includes at least, what, 10 titles that you would kill for, 16 titles that you would kill for? For you, what stimulates your creativity? Like, what's, what's, what helps you kind of get the engine going when it's not? A Kwan Brothers movie? Yeah, I mean, is it going to see a movie?

Is it going to see a movie? Is that get you going? Yeah, I think that when you go see a movie that is staggering, I just saw Revenant. Oh, to you? And it's a staggering. Yeah. And when you see a movie, it's sort of, that moves you to tears about the craft and about the medium and about the humanity. Yeah.

It's so great. And I think that you, it's not that you hold yourself to those standards, but you can certainly aspire to them. Sure. Wherever you fall, whether you are a chapter in cinema or a funny footnote, you always need to dream and be in love with the medium in that way. And I think when you see a movie that beautiful, that powerful, you come out and transform. Do you have in terms of franchise filmmaking, a favorite franchise, one that does elevate on a systematic basis, like do bond films do it for you, do any of like the comic book ones, do it for you that are working on that level of art? I like the bonds. I do like the bonds. I happen to enjoy the Mission Impossible's a lot.

I think that it's, they are becoming more and more the personality of Tom Cruise. You know, like they, he has, now he is that brand in a beautiful, beautiful way, you know. They're kind of like bond of the 60s. They are, they are, and they are physically, and they're very muscular. They're very whimsical. Yeah. You know, I think that the whole. who knew too much, concerto, imagine the last one, you know, the assassination in the theater was... Oh, the opera has sequence is amazing. Beautiful and I'm not saying old-fashioned as something to the cry. It's like a Stanley Donnan or Hitchcock choreography really beautiful, you know. Is, um, did you hear that recent

comments by that Spielberg made about the superhero genre saying it's like cyclical like the Western he thinks it'll it'll go away and it'll come back and it's just the nature of things? I think that things, Rather than go away, things ebb and flow. Yeah. Like, the Western's never gone. Horror, I mean, for us, like I'm in horror, I'm 50, and in my lifetime, horror has been dead four or five times.

And horror has been the hottest thing, six or seven times. Right. So it's ebb and flow. I think everything is ebbing and flowing. And no matter what genre, if a movie has purity and sincerity and power, is going to sort of, you know, flow to the top. You came close to doing another comic book thing in terms of Justice League Dark.

And I know we've talked about Thor was something that you almost did or Ford did with for a time. Is there any impulse? Because, I mean, Thor Ragnarok is something. You've worked with Tom. That's out there that they're looking for a director. Is that something that you could imagine being interested in? I'm actually gravitating to the weird stuff, man.

Still, still, yeah. I feel really, I'm in a stage when And, you know, if I was going to do pyrotechnics, they would need to be very intimately related to who I am or what I like. Or your own universe in Pac-Rim, I guess. It's possible. Yeah, Pac-Rim attracted me because we were going to do crazy stuff and attracts me if we, if it gets green-lid. But I feel like getting weird. Okay, good, good.

I encourage it. Is there an actor you're dying to work with and one in particular that jumps out at you? Do you have... You know, having just seen Revenant and having seen Wolf of Wall Street, I happen to just admire Leon. You'll go for it. And he has, he's a big connoisseur

of the weird and the kinky cinema, you know? Right. We have an affinity for Todd Browning and Freaks. All right. Huge affinity. Is that true? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's a freaks fan.

He's a freaks freak. Okay, good to know. Very big. And, you know, I've known his dad longer than I've known him. Yeah. But his dad used to be an underground publisher. I'm very involved in underground. And all that history of comics, I can talk with Leo or his dad very easily with George.

About Crumb, Richard Corbyn, you know, Jack Jackson. Right. Yeah. I know for a while he was developing like a Twilight Zone movie. I was intrigued by that to see what Leo would do with that. It could be interesting. Yeah. Is there, you know, working with actors over the years, do you feel like that was something

that took a while to, did you perfect a technique? Did Cronus versus Crimson Peak, do you think you're working with on set differently? Yes. Hopefully. I do, I do think you learn, I mean, I learned that brevity and intelligence in the direction, not complexity. Yeah. You don't want to, you don't want to come out to an actor in the middle of it.

middle of a shooting day with an intellectual concern right you don't want to come and say remember this is the moment where the character was is remembering when he was a child I mean you come in with an activity it's more practical yes you are thinking of this you're doing that and a verb you know a verb and and communicated in 10 words or less 20 words if you must but don't don't go into into a conference with the actor yeah give him tools give him trust or trust and be with them. And the other thing that I find important is be next to the camera. Don't hide in video village. Don't be on video village. I mean, I really, unless it's a complex

shot that doesn't allow me to be next to the, I'm, I try not to be in video village. I'm with a little handheld monitor next to the camera. What happens when an actor is delivering a performance in just a different key, like a totally different kind of key than you need? Like, do you sort of accept it and sort of like, okay, we're going to explore this path? Or like at this point, do you feel like you can shift them towards your, what you have in your mind? Or do you just sort of have to go with it? The trickiest thing is tone, you know, like, if you're going to deliver a certain genre of dialogue and the actor is making it earnest, it just sounds worse.

Yeah. So sometimes you need to make it lighter or to assume, you know, when you're delivering a blade two line, and the virus is spreading exponentially. They will soon overrun the city. Whatever it is, you want it to be almost patter, and when they are delivering something, for example, in Crimson Peak, is sort of a couple of notches overwrought into melodrama.

You want to stay in that. And the way you correct that, if I may suggest something, is it's like shooting in a shooting range. If you're not reaching the target, that you don't take one step or one step back. You take five step four to say, try this other way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then five steps back.

You say, you go, let's try this. And you kind of break it. You say, try this much different or this much louder or something, not little steps, bigger steps. Do you ever give a wine reading or is that something? No, I'm never done. I mean, I've never done it also with my accent. It would need to be a treasure of Sierra Madre, you know.

Have you ever had a fire an actor? Have you ever had the fire an act? No, I don't think so. Maybe I conveniently forget. Except for Ron Perlman on this one. Ron Perlman was going to be Tom Hiddles. Who's the most underrated person on a set? Who doesn't get the credit they deserve that you are leaning on that like it makes or breaks?

That's easy. The worst job in a set is a focus puller. Yeah? Of course. He's just because... If he does his job... If his job is right 99.9% of the time, nobody cares. If his job is wrong one time, he's a complete moron and you want to kill him.

You know, I think it's the toughest job on the same. It's also, people think his metrics and his technique, it's pure instinct. Yeah. It's pure instinct. These are beautiful, beautiful craft. And I think it's the director's job to know what all the... these what is it taking all these little jobs because and that's what I'm very thankful that I did about a dozen movies and about 20 episodes of TV before

directing working in different capacities because if you want to and any day being charged of a movie set work on it yeah because then you know what the people working for you are feeling you know when you're on the set of this one or or or on pack rim and these sets are ginormous and that's and insane. Are you giddy just seeing what you've been able to kind of create and kind of like, this is all here because of me. Not in an ego way, but like that it's like, it's a kid in a candy store, I would imagine. That happened the first time I, Ron walked in as Hellboy. Yeah. And full costume and makeup. I was like, you know, we've done half the job already. I was super

happy. I remember on Pacific Rim when we built the compots in a real gimbal to shake them. And I got the first footage with the cranes going at them and it was a very difficult technically very difficult movie and I thought this is fantastic you know and and it happens on Crimson Peak when we walk into the house absolutely I mean I really wanted the house to be along with the world road to be an instrument of storytelling to tell you who they are and sort of evidence their state of mind by showing the house sure you know and the moment we entered the house I felt this is

is fantastic. Going into a slight spoiler territory, but there's a murder in this one that involves kind of like a bloody tear that is just a great image. Is that something that's, like where did that come from? Do you recall? Well, I thought it was important to have a final moment for that character that would be emotional. I tried different things. I had lines that didn't work. I had a moment between them that didn't work. And I finally said, you know what, let's put the tear let's do the tear because we were congesting the eye with blood yeah and I said what if we have a little overflow you know what's is there a scene in particular in Crimson Peak that is the is the one that that brings a huge

grin to your face yeah I mean there's many I mean I honestly this is my third favorite film I'm done and but I can tell you if I had to choose from the beauty I would choose the waltz the waltz scene in Crimson Peak is I think beautiful gorgeous and it kind of encapsulates a whole courtship in one single scene, and Tom is holding a candle, and it really never went out. It really just stayed up.

That's how good a dancer he is. I'm just glad you convinced him to wear the pants for it, because his initial instinct, it wouldn't have worked for the final product. The G-stream was wrong. But the other thing that I remember with, I mean, I love the murders. But I think that the most sickening scene for me

is when she's feeding Mia. Yeah. When Lucille is feeding Mia's on porridge, it was a really intense scene and a very violent scene without anything happening, you know? It's a truly great piece of work. I'm dying to see it again,

and I will very soon. Thanks so much, as always, for stopping by, man. You're one of the best out there, and it's a pleasure to talk to you. See you later, guys. Thanks, buddy. Hello, hi. Have you found yourself watching the film Aliens and wondering,

what is Arcturian Puntang? Did you know that line was improvised by the actor Rico Ross? Or that the bus from speed jumped over a real freeway gap with real terrified actors inside. Or maybe it didn't. I don't know, but I do know this. I'm Matt Gourley. And if you listen to my podcast, I was there too. You wouldn't ask these questions because you would already know the answers.

On each episode of I was there, too, I talked to a different actor who had a small role in some of film and television's most iconic scenes. They share stories about improvising with Robin Williams, dancing with Michael Jackson, getting screamed at by Samuel L. Jackson, and all Jackson-related stories. In clips like these. I got to rewrite at Midnight, one of those Deadwood monologues that's like a paragraph and a half long in Backward Shakespeare and the 8.5. He decalled me up and said, David wants to shoot this first thing in the morning. So we're talking, you know, 5.30 a.m. And right now it's midnight. Like, okay, do I not sleep and hope that I'm able to perform this in the morning?

Or are we going to get there in the morning and we're going to do it? And David is going to say, you know, let me rewrite it again. And I should just blow it off and sleep. What I ended up doing was I began crying. For more like that, listen to I was there too today on wolfpop.com or the Howl app or the podcast app of your choice. It's America. I'll see you all there.

In my mind's eye. Pop. Pop. Pop. Pop. Pop. Pop. This has been a Wolfpop production.

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