Happy Sad Confused - Guillermo Del Toro (2015)

Episode Date: October 30, 2023

It's Halloween week so Happy Sad Confused is bringing back a chat with one of the true masters of horror, the great Guillermo Del Toro. In this 2015 chat, Del Toro an Josh chat about everything from CRONOS to Star Wars. It's a true career spanning chat with an iconic filmmaker. SPONSORS MOSH -- Head to ⁠moshlife.com/HAPPYSAD⁠ to save 20% off plus FREE shipping on your first 6-count plant based Trial Pack. DraftKings -- Download the DraftKings Casino app NOW, sign up with promo code HAPPYSAD, and new customers get a deposit match up to ONE HUNDRED DOLLARS in casino credits when you deposit $5 or more!   Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes of GAME NIGHT, video versions of the podcast, and more! To watch episodes of Happy Sad Confused, subscribe to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Josh's youtube channel here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

During the Volvo Fall Experience event, discover exceptional offers and thoughtful design that leaves plenty of room for autumn adventures. And see for yourself how Volvo's legendary safety brings peace of mind to every crisp morning commute. This September, leased a 2026 XC90 plug-in hybrid from $599 bi-weekly at 3.99% during the Volvo Fall Experience event.

Conditions apply, visit your local Volvo retailer or go to explorevolvo.com. It got Willa. They got my daughter. I need to find her. Willa! From acclaimed director, Paul Thomas Anderson. You can save that girl.

On September 26th, experience what is being called the best movie of the year. This is the end of the line. Not for you. Leonardo DiCaprio, Sean Pan, Benicio Del Toro, Tiana Taylor, Chase Infinity. Let's go! Here I come. One battle after another. Only in theater, September 26th.

Experience it in IMAX. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now. I'm Josh Horowitz, and today on Happy Sad Confused, it's Halloween week, so we're celebrating with a master of horror. He loves monsters and Gothic horror and anything creepy. It's the one and only Guillermo del Toro in a flashback conversation from 2015. Hey, guys, welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused.

That's right, this is a bonus episode for you guys. week, and this is a very old episode, but a really special one. This was the first time Guillermo Datoro ever did Happy Say I Confused way back when in 2015, and I listened to this one back, and I thought there's no better guest to talk scary movies in the season that is Halloween. This was on the occasion of his release of Crimson Peak, which was kind of ignored, frankly, at the box office, but was a personal favorite of mine and remains such to this day. And I think you guys are going to really dig this career conversation with Guillermo way back when in 2015. Before we get to that, let me remind you folks, if you haven't subscribed yet,

what are you doing with your lives? Every week we give you one, if not two, amazing conversations with the best filmmakers and actors on the planet. Remember, hit that subscribe button. If you're on YouTube, if you're listening, subscribe wherever you get your podcast to Happy Say I Confused for nearly 10 years. been giving you the best and the brightest in film and TV. All we ask from you is that little subscription button. Anyway, before we get to the Guillermo Conversation, I want to tease one very exciting thing coming up. In about two weeks, I believe, we are going to be debuting a new mini-series spin-off, if you will, of Happy Seg Confused that I've been working on for a long

while, I'm not going to say what it is just yet, but it is a project that is very close to my heart. And I think if you enjoy what I do and enjoy deep film conversations with great filmmakers, this is going to be a really special series for you. So stay tuned. Like I said, now is the time to hit that subscribe button because we have a really cool series coming up for you. It's going to be in the happy, say, confused feed on YouTube and in your podcast feed, so you won't be able to miss it if you hit subscribe. Just wanted to tease that. It's coming very soon.

We've been shooting a bunch of really cool things, and soon enough, all will be revealed. That's your tease this week. Okay, so some context. This conversation with Guillermo Datoro took place in my little office when we were doing these things in person and doing them off camera. So if you're watching on YouTube, you're not going to be able to see us. gesticulating wildly, but you know what Germo and I look like. We'll have a still image so you can look at that while you listen to this great conversation. But he has since done the podcast, I think at least twice since this 2015 conversation. But on this occasion, as I said,

we were talking Crimson Peak. But when I listen back, I realize this is a really good one to share because it does capture the arc of his career. His early influences, his love of Hitchcock, It goes all the way back to Kronos, going to Cannes, and him hitting it big there. His struggles on mimic, a little bit on those Hobbit years when he was going to direct that and kind of the lost years of Guillermo Deltoro, Pacific Rim, his comeback, and even a little bit on Star Wars back then, which, of course, recently we made some news on Happy Sank and fused in our conversation with David Goyer, and you'll hear in this 2015 conversation indeed, Guillermo was thinking about that job of the hut movie way back when.

So there's a lot in this chat to enjoy. I know if you love movies as much as I do, you're going to really dig it. So here it is. For your ears and for your eyes to an extent, please enjoy my 2015 conversation with the legend that is. He's a legend. You can't just throw that word around, but you can when it's Guillermo de Toro. Please enjoy this conversation with the master that is Guillermo del Toro. Mr. Del Toro, Guillermo, buddy, signior.

It's always good to see him, man. Same here, man. Truly, I was telling you before, I'm a borderline obsessed with this one. I love it. I truly do. I am obsessed with it, and I love it, too. It's one of my three favorites I've done. Yeah, so that's, which are the three?

Devils Backbone? Devils Backbone, Penn's Navrant. Depending on the week, they can switch, and then Crimson Peak right out. See, I was going to say, like, when you finish a film, and this one, you had a while to kind of like tinker and get it right, say the least. A tinker, I did. Did you really? Horribly. And to the point of, I honestly, my post-supervvvvvvary.

was to keep him away. It's like, let it go, Guillermo. We did 12 musical sessions on the score, 12 musical sessions. We redesigned the sound three times. I mixed it three times. I color corrected it about three times more than any other movie. Like Pants was, next to this Pants was the next one. Yeah.

And I color corrected the cinematography in this movie three times more. I recut it, cut it, moved it, tried it, went crazy on the previews, tried things that were much longer until I got it to where I like it, you know? Do you understand the instinct of, you know, the Ridley Scott and the George Lucas is that tinker even beyond release? Are you, at this point, are you ready to let it go? Or do you still, when you see it, do you still see any things? I saw it the other day, and there's one thing I would cut out. No.

There you go. So, I mean, it's cool. I'm happy to hear that you're pleased with it as you should be, because I'm curious, like, when a filmmaker completes a work that they've labored on for a while, do they see the flaws? Do they see? Are they psyched about it? You seem actually psyched about it and not sick of it, which is a good sign. Yeah, I'm saying, you know, there was a moment

where I really was afraid for my sanity. Well, what was happening? Because I kept coming back and saying, I'm going to need to open. We were printing the final reels, you know, and I would say to the post-supervisor, have you printed real five? No, okay, we're going to open it again

and I'm going to take this line of dialogue out. Right. Really? I go, yeah, and to the point of obsession, you know. It's funny. I mean, you begin the film, I believe, literally the first line of dialogue is what ghosts are real, right? And I feel like it's kind of, you know,

without ruining stuff for the audience, it's disingenuous, to me, I don't think of it as a ghost story. I feel like it's a story that has some ghosts involved. It's exactly what she says to the publisher. It's not a ghost story. It's a story with a ghost in it. Yeah. And look, Gothic romance in general is very important to understand.

Gothic romance is not a horror film. It's atmospherically like a dark fairy tale with supernatural atmosphere and elements and scares, but it doesn't function as a horror film. And the same time, Gothic romance is not pure romance. Gothic romance was born out of the will to marry love and death and a nostalgic sense of loss. So it's a hugely romantic movie, but with a lot of darkness.

Well, that's what I was going to say is, like, you've described yourself, and I think it's apt. Like, you're not a cynical filmmaker. You're very much a romantic that happens to just, also of darkness and there's some horrific imagery in all your films but it comes from a romantic place which is an interesting juxtaposition I get high on my own supply I truly truly use my product and I and I feel that even even in something when you approach an idea as insane as Pacific Graham yeah and

robots I do it straight I believe in giant robots I believe in I'm not being ironicals more postmodern yeah and with gothic romance I think The movie has this heightened tone of melodrama, and I went for broke for it, you know? Plus, you threw in Tom Hiddleston's rear end. Yeah, well, he was very, very eager to throw the rear end. He suggested one day, how about, I just dropped out today? Can I be naked for the breakfast scene? No, Tom.

We've got to wait for the love scene. Can I be naked in the walls? No, Tom. Wait for the love scene. What if we had the subplot, the subtext that I'm a nudist throughout the entire film? I think he was toning those buds. Right. He is a great romantic hero for this kind of a thing.

He fits this to a tea. He does. And look, I can tell you two or three ways to make Crimson Peak eminently more of a commercial ride that I don't take. You know, like you give the ghosts a moral or religious weight. They are evil, they're demonic, they're whatever. I refuse to do that. The ghosts are used in a really interesting way that relates to the devil's backbone, actually. If people watch them.

And the other thing is, instead of making the villains so hateful at the end that you want them to die, you create an empathy. And you know, little by little, and the same was in Devils Back when you give them their most humane moments as the movie advances. And it makes for a more moral gray area. But I'm really happy with that. Are you a believer yourself in supernatural and ghosts? I have. I mean, I have experienced that, and I believe. because and everybody in my family

most people have experienced that I don't know if it's in the water but in Mexico it's more useful to encounter the strange and the supernatural what's the one that sticks out is there one incident that you think of well the one the one that sticks out was when we were scouting the Hobbit in New Zealand I always

got when I stay in hotels I look for the hunted room and in Waitomo and you can do it yourself if you go to Wellington and New Zealand in White Tomo there is a hotel, the Waitomo Hotel, and there is a room, I think, is 12C, where it's famously a haunted room. And it was closed. The hotel was closed for the season.

It was eight of us. And the manager opened the hotel, really angry that we were making her open the hotel, gave us the keys and said, go. And I said, can I get the hunted room? And she said, there you go. I'm watching the wire. I'm watching Omar and Stringer Bell, like doing a parlay, you know. No, nothing haunting about it in my Mac, and all of a sudden, and it's in the movie in Crimson Peak, I hear a horrible murder in the bathroom. Horrible. A woman's screams? Just like a woman screaming, like you have never heard those screams. It's a huge pain.

And then I get up, I look, I trace it to a vent in the wall. I listen, and it's a vent that goes to the cellar of the building. I get really jittery, but I sit down and ready to admit Stringer Bell into my life again. You hear a guy sobbing loudly with regret, and then I put the earphones and I watched the whole season. The only time the wire is like a respite is like, it's like the nice place to go. Whoever got killed, I didn't care. It's a romantic comedy now. Because the room had a huge window on balcony, and I swore, I was saying, I didn't. didn't want to go out into the corridors.

I said, I don't know where the other seven people are. And I'm not going to be running like Danny in the tricycle looking for who is there. And I swore that if I lifted my eyes from the computer to the balcony, there was going to be somebody knocking slowly in the window. No, I'm not going to do that. And the next day, you left the Hobbit Project.

This wasn't home. I didn't sleep. And the next day, we continued scouting up north. You mentioned sounds. I mean, the sound design in this film impeccable too. I kept thinking of like the all those strange noises in a house that creep you out and everybody has this growing up or to this day. What are the banal ordinary sounds that get under your skin? Are there any, are there like sounds that kind

of creep you out just for a... There's... Believe it or not, one of the ghosts, what we did is we grabbed the cooing of a baby and which is very creepy to put it on top of a skeletal figure. Right. For example, the buzzing of a fly freaks me out for some reason is in the movie. And then there is a low frequency that affects us as mammals. I think it's a frequency that we used to sense as earthquakes or volcanoes. So it's ingrained in our DNA to react with fear to that low frequency. So that freaks me out too. So since we have some time, I want to go back a little bit and jump around to the career. We've talked many times over the years, but this is kind of like, this is your life, Guillermo Totoro. I want to go back to the

beginning. Okay. So like who is the biggest influence on your life? like growing up in terms of like pop culture. Who did you learn your, who did you inherit some tastes from or some proclivities towards? I studied very carefully Hitchcock. You cannot see it in my work, but I studied Hitchcock a lot. I liked that he was Catholic and repressed and fat, but also I love that he really could verbalize what he was doing

and it didn't get in the way of the work of heart. I love that. I like that he seemed to be a reflexive, artist that could articulate what he was doing. Huge influence, George Miller, for example, strangely enough. I mean, I still emotionally, my favorite movie of all times is either Frankenstein or the World Warrior.

And if the world was burning, I would probably grab the World Warrier. As a how-to manual to survive the apocalypse? I remember the same weekend, I saw the Road Warrior and Blade Runner, and I came out of both instances transformed. And I was in Vegas.

And in the roller, I came out and I laid next to the pavement to see the grain of the pavement. I mean, I think that movie transformed a lot of people of my generation. Same with Blade Runner, man. When I think I saw you last, we actually, I think we mentioned Fury Road. I think we were both obsessed with what George was able to do on that one. At that age. That's what I was going to say. It's like, you know, in recent years, you've seen people like Scorsese and you've seen George Miller.

Wolf on Wall Street. Who are, you know, they're directing like their 25-year-olds that have never directed before. Is that, I mean, is that something that you worry about? Like, how do you, like, steer yourself towards that as opposed to running out of ideas? I have the great advantage that I was directing, like, I was 70 when I was 20. So you're going to reverse? You're Benjamin Buttoning.

I'm going to beckoning, yeah, yes. I think that is beautiful because there are, when you have people that are in love with the craft, and you sense that these are people, George Miller is a fully undomesticated animal. It's a tiger that has not. known a cage. Right. You know, and I love Matt Max was the stories about schedule and units and he just went for it. It felt like like Warner Brothers just gave him like

$150 million, sent him to Nobibia and he just brought back this amazing piece of art. Amazing piece of art. And it's almost Max de Soleil, you know, like balletic and acrobatic and you know. Totally. Yeah. So when you're growing up by my math also, like you mentioned Blade Run and Road Warrior, Star Wars came out probably when you were like Shwell over 13 or something. Does that naturally blow the brain off of Giamma Datoro? Well, what happened is I came out of, I went to the first showing, I think it was 10 a.m. And I went around the blog and I went to the second showing. And I went around the blog and I went to every showing that day, consecutive.

And because it was when nobody still, it was not, people were not saying you got to see it. Right. The world was much slower before the summer movies. Right. And I watch it all day long. and I was dying to get a toy. It was like, surgically implanted in me to want toys. Yeah.

And it's because George, George did, for the first time in an efficient way, a future that felt used. Like, even Kubrick with 2001, which is impeccable and perfect. Yeah. It's a beautiful movie, but everything is new. Yeah. Oil drips are not there. And I think George broke that mold, followed almost immediately by Alien. Ridley Scott, who made it truckers in space, you know, with oil drips and bad repair jobs and steam coming out.

I mean, I think that made science fiction real, wearing it down. Before that, it was people in two-toos, you know, speaking in strange tongues with shiny apparatus and rides. This is the moment. It was lived in. It was lived in. I mean, you know, we talked how, like, you've been offered virtually every kind of comic book franchise at various points over the career. Is Star Wars a universe that, like, is too sacred in a way that you would want to play with? Have you talked to them at all?

No, I really, I feel strangely more and more inclined lately to go and do more strange stuff. Like, do stuff that is a little more cagey, a little more quirky. I don't know. When I spoke to them, I spoke with John Knoll about it, and I said, if I ever do one, I would love to do Java the Hodge's Scarface. His ascension in the crime family. Totally. But it's not, it's not a plan.

It's not, I'm not announcing the police. Don't pick it off. But it does feel like, yeah, like I wouldn't pick you necessarily to do like episode nine, but yeah, I feel like you could rather give you. Yeah, you should give your flavor to some side, bizarre story. I just love monsters. Yeah. And Java is, A, basically my same shirt size.

And second, I love it, man. Jumping around a bit. I refreshed. I watched Kronos last week for the first time in a long while. It still holds up. It's an amazing piece of work. When that came and you got a lot of accolades off of that, I believe you were celebrated in Cannes for it.

Yes. We won the Critics Week, yeah. Was that a relief because it was like you've been building towards this? And what happens if it comes out and no one cares? I tell you, I went to Kronos. I went to Kronos. I was 27, 28, and our promotional budget for Ken was 10 posters and a roll of scotch tape. And I said to my wife,

You think them posters would be an option? I think more than enough. We come out of the plane. We were to come out of the plane. And Arnold Schwarzenegger, in the last section of here, is floating over the bay with a thought of shotgun. Giant Billboards. And I go restaurant to restaurants and can I glue my poster in your window?

Yes or no. And I glue the posters. And then I say, how many movies are in Critics Week? And they were like a hundred. And all of them. were nominated for the prize. And I said, all right, let's enjoy the song. And then we win.

I mean, it changed my life. You know, two times I felt that moved. The other time was when we finished Kronos with a, we asked for a loan personally of a quarter of a million dollars on a 20-something-year-old. And my house was a guarantee, blah, blah, blah. And when we won a contest where the first price was like 100-something, I stood there with the giant check, like Miss Universe, crying and saying,

thank you, thank you. And those are, I mean, these are the beginnings, and the beginnings are very delicate. I think it never stops being delicate, but the first and second movie are the hardest. If the first one is good, then everybody says, let's see what he does on the second one. Merciful for me, I did mimic. You went through it. I went like, I went like, there you go, guys. But, you know, the second one is difficult.

Clearly, and it was for you. I mean, there was a lot going on. I mean, your personal life, too, that was around the time when your dad was... My dad was taken for 72 days. An insane story. So, when did you know that project was going to hell? Can I make? Yeah.

Oh. You know, I got the sense of it one day when I got into a conference call. No, we were in a conference table, and Michael Phillips, one of the producers, for the longest time, The longest time, they were barked beetles that fed on the trees of Central Park, and they propagated a disease through the air, blah, blah, blah. And now, some, Michael Phillips says, why did we make them cockroaches? And I just felt, this is the end. That's it.

And then everybody said, that's a great idea in New York. And I said, listen, I said this. I really did. I said, from now on, no matter what we do, we're going to be the giant roach movie. Oh, no, no, no, are you wrong? And what did we, where were we? The Giant Roach movie. Would you ever work with the White's themes again, or is that too much?

You know, we have a friendship. I mean, we get along, we see each other. You know, never say never, right? I mean, part of me loves Bob, and I love Harvey. I really get along with Harvey. Since then, it seems to me looking at what you've produced since then, you really haven't made any compromises. Like, do you ever feel like you have had to make a compromise artistically?

Never again. Never again. Every movie, if you like it or hate it is my fault. Yeah. You know, I think that from then on I've been free. Hey, Michael. Hey, Tom. Well, big news to share it, right? Yes, huge, monumental, earth-shaking. Heartbeat sound effect, big. Rink is back. That's right. After a brief snack nap.

We're coming back. We're picking snacks? We're eating snacks. Rating snacks. Like the snackologist we were born to be. Mates is back. Mike and Tom, eat snacks. Wherever you get your podcast. Unless you get them from a snack machine, in which case, call us.

We call us. Goodbye, summer movies, hello fall. I'm Anthony Devaney. And I'm his twin brother, James. We host Raiders of the Lost Podcast, the Ultimate Movie Podcast, and we are ecstatic to break down late. summer and early fall releases. We have Leonardo DiCaprio leading a revolution in one battle after another,

Timothy Salome playing power ping pong in Marty Supreme. Let's not forget Emma Stone and Jorgos Lanthamos' Bougonia. Dwayne Johnson, he's coming for that Oscar in The Smashing Machine, Spike Lee and Denzel teaming up again, plus Daniel DeLuis's return from retirement. There will be plenty of blockbusters to chat about, too. Tron Aries looks exceptional, plus Mortal Kombat 2, and Edgar writes, The Running Man starring Glenn Powell. Search for Raiders of the Lost Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube.

You reference, and I don't want to go into, certainly exploit what was a personal, you know, hardship for your entire family, but the incident with your dad. Is that something that colors, though, your work you think in any way? I mean, you've never, you've decided never to kind of, like, do a story about it in any way. But do you feel like it informs any of your work in any way? I don't know how. I mean, it probably does. I mean, look, the fact is I can explain my movies to a certain degree, but that's my reading.

The movies have or must have another reading that somebody else need to do if they're interested. I'm not, you know, when people say, oh, you know, you classify them this way and maybe it's a simplistic way or not, but that's how I articulate them. Yeah. They must have a second reading. I mean, there is an extreme preoccupation with death, of course. But I'm not sure it permeated. It made me a better person, that's for sure.

How so? Just an appreciating... It's weird because until my dad was kidnapped, I had his shadow over me in a big way. Like, I was his son. He was a very famous man. He was a big man. And then when he came out,

I was a man and he was a man. Just another guy. And I loved him, but he was not this childhood giant. Sure. It was a guy that I loved, you know, so it was very different. What about having kids? Does that change? I mean, certainly it doesn't feel like your films have softened in any way.

No, but I actually became incredibly sensitive to the female protagonists, to actors, to actresses, to what they do in my films. If I didn't have my kids, I wouldn't have been able to do Panslaverns. I wouldn't have been able to do Crimson Peak, which is incredibly. female centric sure and I'm very aware of the of the power of my wife my daughters is just their power is so strong and I I always I always wonder how can any artist represent women in any other way but strong because everybody around me my mother everybody all the women I know are are strong and powerful and full of a core that we lack yeah yeah you've

You've got two great performances in this one. Mia and Jessica, I know it's a great acting stretch for her because in real life she's always smiling. And in this film, I don't think she smiles once. Yeah, and look, I made it very clear to both of them, and you're going to represent two sides of love. And two sides of love, not towards a man, just two sides of an understanding love.

And they need to be fully convinced that each of them is right. Sure. Like, each of them needed to be the protagonist and they're in her own mind, you know? We talk about not making compromises because I think of Hellboy, where you really stood fast with your soulmate, Mr. Ron.

For another eight years. And he was someone that was not necessarily the studio's pick, to say the least. When I used to say, I used to say, Ron Perlman, they say, the owner of Reblum, the actor, the guy,

they would bark it in the thing too. It'll be perfect. But they weren't like Vin Diesel, right? Did they ever, did you ever consider it? Nicholas Cray, Vin Diesel, the rock you know did they make a compelling argument for any of those did you were you tempted at all no no I mean I really I just said look a I would tell Ron I would tell Ron I'm gonna take the meeting but don't worry and then I would take the

meeting and so I'd rather go with Ron and then every time they would come back I had a meeting with a super powerful production product producer and he said your movie's green lit but it's not gonna be Ron Perlman that's all I'm asking same script and I said, this is not my movie. I mean, and I always had the certainty after Mimic. See, Mimic did that for me. Mimic taught me the most powerful word in English

language. No. And the thing is at the end of the day, your name is on the movie, you're responsible. You can tell stories or you can, I can tell you, oh, it needs you. If you didn't bail, if you stayed and your name

is on it, don't tell me who you are the, you are, own the crap. The last couple of years at Comic-Con, you've pulled the audience on Hellboy, Ron's been actively trying to get this going lately. Has the studio expressed any interest? Is it all from you guys? Like, is there any... The last serious conversation on the Hillbord Street was with Ron Perlman at a coffee bin in Ventura. It doesn't get any more official than that. That's how movies are greenishol. That's practically grim. So, you know, it was Ron with his vanilla for Pacino about, what, four weeks ago. Right.

I mean, I adore that guy, man. I mean, he really is my brother, and I would love to do it. I would love to do Hellboy 3. And I frankly, honestly, part of me is maybe not savvy enough, but I understand why they do it, because the two Hellboys made a lot of money on DVD and Blu-ray. Right. They made enough money theatrically, but the DVD and Blu-ray markets are gone. Yeah.

But I honestly think I may be deluded. that there is, the character has grown into an audience that really wants it. Well, and also the international markets have exploded, and I feel like that's a character that transcends, can transcend. I mean, I would do it in a second, but no one's, no one's notging. And Ron is on this almost religious... That's a good crusade, yeah. Don't get in his way.

I don't. I tell you, I'll do anything for that guy, man. In the course of my being at MTV, it kind of coincided with what, was probably a frustrating period of time for you. I mean, we were talking a lot during the development of the Hobbit, et cetera. Two years, yeah. Yeah, and there's that like... Mantas of Mother right after. And so there will always, for good or for bad,

there will always be that, what, five or six year gap in your directing resume. How were you able to reconcile that? Because that must have been the grayish source of frustration for you. It feels at times like you've been cursed as a filmmaker in more than others. The reality is that my projects had reported and announced more than others. I can tell you the three movies that Alfonso tried and didn't do in his six years between children of man and gravity. And he was going to do one called A Man on His Shoe, A Boy on His Shoe, and another one that was about a bunch of teenagers and blah, blah, blah. And they don't get reported.

For some reason, I get reported. I get announced. And then I have to own the fact that they happen or not happen. But it happens to everyone. I mean, the gap exists there. But I kind of felt good about the gap because I co-wrote three novels, produced three films. Sure. Produced two animated films.

I was not exactly sitting on my lawyers and core wrote the trilogy, you know. And I designed my two Hobbit movies completely, you know, as much as I could. And I left all that all that there. But I actually, the thing that hurts for me is Bounteous of Madness. Yeah. That one hurts because that's a, that. That's a horror movie. Like, Crimson Peak is not a horror movie.

Now, Madison Madness is a horror movie. It was going to be a scary movie and a beautiful movie. And infamously, you were, like, a week or two away with, like, Tom Cruise attached and all of this. I was with Jim Cameron producing. Yeah. I mean, I, that in the 80s with Carolco. Exactly. So any movement lately on Mountain Madness?

Is that one of those things? Again, like the coffee mean, I had dinner with Jim and he said, what are we going to do about it? You know, Don Murphy and Susan Montfort, always great allies, always keep it alive. And, you know, what I say is, let's do it when it's absolutely sure. Because I honestly, I don't want to be dramatic, but it hurt a lot. And I don't know if I could be disappointed on that project again. What about feelings for The Hobbit at this point? Have you ever sat down and watched the three?

No, no, I haven't. And Peter and I are in a great relationship. We have a very clean relationship and communication. We're very friendly. And I think it's a sign of respect for me. It's almost like, you know, watching footage of your ex-wife on the beach. You know, exactly why do you want to watch? If it's good, it's bad.

If it's worse, it's worse. And there's no upside to it. And I respect and love his work as a filmmaker. And, you know, I'd rather be happy that I was part of it. Sure. So Pacific Room, which was the largest in terms of scale of a film that you've done, Was it at all difficult to could retain kind of like your creativity, your control over that as the scale exponentially grew? Nope.

That movie is fully in my control. No, it feels totally. It doesn't feel compromised in any way. I hate to not have great anecdotes, but that movie, if you hate it or love it, I did it. And it was great. It was really hard to gauge the marketing of that movie because I always felt that the robots were pushed to the first. front and the monsters were not they were almost kept like a secret sure you know and I think the whole concept what attracted me was monsters and robots that's what made my 11 year

old mental light bulb right and and you know I'll never I'll never I'll never know exactly if it could have been different it was you know a lot was made about the tracking and tracking doesn't mean popularity means people knowing about it yep we tested incredibly high. We got a great cinema score, meaning audiences were connecting, but no one knew. I mean, when the movie was opening, we were below grown-ups too in terms of awareness. Now, it's awareness, and that's a thing that worries me, because I would have loved for people to know more about it. Well, it's a crazy world when, like, what a film grosses, like, around 400 globally, and it's a gray area, whether you get the greenlight or not

for a sequel. Yeah, 411, it's pretty good for... It's still my highest-grossing movie. And original property, I mean, that's an achievement. And, you know, legendary always, you know, the reason why they started Pacific Rim 2 is they showed me, look, we've made more money than this, this, and this huge franchise's first movie. Sure.

The fact is what we need to do on the second one is you need to use everything we learned and make it for as tight about it as you can and go for it, you know? So as we said here today, I know in the last couple of days it's been talked about whether this is a Go project or not or it's on the shelf. It's certainly not my next movie. It's definitely not. No, because with the push, you push the release date, so I feel compelled to go and do something small and weird, you know, and then, because I need, I need like a breather and a little more

madness in my mind. But in three weeks, we are delivering a budget on a schedule and a new draft of the scrimpling. And then the studio knows how much it costs. What is it about? And then they'll decide if they go ahead or not. Is the small, weird one, something specific? Because you had mentioned doing like a black and white thing that was... You know, I've learned, and you know, I've learned it through the years.

You want to make God laugh, tell me what your next movie is. Sure. I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the LA Times. And I'm Paul Shear, an actor, writer, and director. You might know me from The League, Veep, or my non-eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters. We come together to host Unspool, a podcast where we talk about good movies, critical hits. Fan favorites, must-season, and case you miss them. We're talking Parasite the Home Alone.

From Greece to the Dark Night. So if you love movies like we do, come along on our cinematic adventure. Listen to Unspooled wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to hit the follow button. It's ticklish business any way you look at it. Come on, we'll stick together. Love movies? Love classic movies?

So do we. Ticklish Business is the podcast where classic film is discussed in modern times. Hosted by me, film hearing is Kristen Lopez, and my co-host, author Emily Edwards. We dive into the golden age of cinema with fun, heart, and serious expertise. As published film historians and lifelong classic movie books, we bring insider insights, deep research, and lively debates with a variety of special guests, ranging from celebrities like Holly Madison to TCM luminaries Dave Carger and Eddie Muller, and even family members of Old Hollywood Legends.

Subscribe now to ticklish business on your favorite podcast app, and let's talk about Old Hollywood today. Okay, it's official. We are very much in the final sprint to Election Day, and face it, between debates, polling releases, Even court appearances, it can feel exhausting, even impossible to keep up with. I'm Brad Nilke. I'm the host of Start Here, the Daily Podcast from ABC News. And every morning my team and I get you caught up on the day's news in a quick, straightforward way that's easy to understand with just enough context so you can listen, get it, and go on with your day.

So, kickstart your morning. Start Smart with Start Here and ABC News, because staying informed shouldn't feel overwhelming. Talking to filmmakers, when you talked about Hitchcock, about George Miller, you've mentioned before and every great filmmaker would mention him, Stanley Kubrick as an influence. Kubrick, Cameroon, Bonuel, Spielberg, Polansky, Buster Keaton, Chaplin, I mean, who's the filmmaker that's no longer with us that you wish you could bend the ear of a little bit?

Who would you want to talk to? I would love to have met Hitchcock, or Bonneux. I mean, they are really, really people I find very interesting as people, you know. What's your favorite Hitchcock film? Depends on which side of Hitchcock. The great action Hitchcock is either 39 steps or not only northwest. The great melodrama Hitchcock, I would say, is notorious. The great sort of Americana Hitchcock that defines Hitchcock is shadow of a doubt.

Without a doubt. Or Strangers in a train. Sure. His gothic romance in a strange way is not Rebecca, but suspicion. And one of my favorite late year films is frenzy. And my favorite film growing up of Hitchcock was The Birds, or I Confess. So, I mean, I really... There's something where I've removed.

It is, and Hitchcock is not a filmmaker. Hitchcock is cinema. Yeah. It's the whole of cinema in one single author. Do you, I mean, do you feel, it's kind of fascinating to think, like, cinema is a very young art form still and evolving exponentially. And we've talked over the years about video games and you, and you were a proponent. You know, you've said before that this is an area where creativity is really exploding. There will be, yeah.

What do you, do you worry about the cinematic experience, about will it look the same in 50 years? Will people be going to theaters together? Well, it's like owning a horse table and being worried about automobiles. I mean, progress is progress, isn't it? I mean, language evolves, art evolves, and it evolves with technology. So we are facing a change, no doubt about it. Now, I say, if everybody keeps making great movies like Miller and Scorsese and Alfonso and Alejandro, everybody, you know, I happen to think another one is Ridley Scott for me. Ridley Scott, I'm maybe in the minority, but I'm a huge fan of the counselor, and I've seen it probably 30 times.

Oh, but that's a crazy, amazing movie. I know it. I know it, perfect, and so forth. So, you know, just, I think everybody should keep making the best movies they can, and the art form will change. Now, one day, one day we will be all people that did operetta, for sure, because that's in the cards. Well, it's interesting. I mean, you mentioned Ridley, I just saw The Martian, which. which is like talking about a filmmaker pushing himself. I mean, from a visual standpoint, of course, it's amazing.

It's got more humor than virtually any of his films ever to sort of see somebody pushing themselves in an area that maybe people don't think of themselves, them for. Like, is there a genre that you appreciate as a fan that you don't necessarily feel like you have the tools to excel in? Oh, yes, many. I mean, of course. I mean, I would, musical, I'm musical.

I did. I mean, but can I make a parenthesis there, because another movie of him that I admire enormously is Prometheus. And in the same way that I battle very much to say, Crimson Big is not horror, it's gothic romance, blah, blah, blah. Prometheus is one of the greatest adventure movies of the last two decades. Why do you think there's so much hate? Because I actually agree with you.

It's an adventure movie. People are in terms of alien and they just, it was that. It's like Robert Louis Stevens and Four Feathers or Joseph Conrad scope adventure. It's an amazing. It happens to be in space. It happens to be in the universe of alien. But it's an adventure film

of people breaking molds and going places that they shouldn't be. It's really fascinating. And I just think the guy is amazing. And I think he's getting better and better. And his filmography includes at least, what, 10 titles that you would kill for? 16 titles that you would kill for.

For you, what stimulates your creativity? Like, what's, what helps you kind of get the engine going when it's not? A Kwan Brothers movie? Yeah, I mean, is it going to see a movie? Is it going to see a movie? Is that get you going? Yeah, I think that when you go see a movie that is staggering, I just saw Revenant. Oh, did you?

And it's a staggering. Yeah. And when you see a movie, it's sort of, that moves you to TV. about the craft and about the medium and about the humanity. Yeah. It's so great. And I think that you, it's not that you hold yourself to those standards, but you can certainly aspire to them.

Sure. Wherever you fall, whether you are a chapter in cinema or a funny footnote, you always need to dream and be in love with the medium in that way. And I think when you see a movie that beautiful, that powerful, you come out transform. Do you have a, in terms of franchise film, making a favorite franchise, one that does elevate on a systematic basis, like, do bond films, do it for you, do any of, like, the comic book ones do it for you that, that are working

on that level of art? I like the bonds. I do like the bonds. I happen to enjoy the Mission Impossibles a lot, you know? I think that it's, they are becoming more and more the personality of Tom Cruise, you know, like they, he has, now he is that brand in a beautiful, beautiful way, you know? They're kind of like bond of the 60s. They are, and they are physically, and they're very muscular.

They're very whimsical. You know, I think that the whole man who knew too much concerto, imagine the last one, you know, the assassination in the theater was... Oh, the opera has sequenced. Beautiful. And I'm not saying old-fashioned as something to the cry. It's like a Stanley Donnan or Hitchcock choreography, really beautiful, you know. Did you hear the recent comments that Spielberg made about the superhero genre saying it's like cyclical like the Western, he thinks it'll go away and it'll come back and it's just the nature of things?

Well, I think that things, rather than go away, things ebb and flow. Yeah. Like the Western's never gone. Yeah. Horror, I mean, for us, like I'm in horror, I'm 50, and in my lifetime, horror has been dead four or five times. Right. And horror has been the hottest thing, six or seven times. Right. So it's ebb and flow.

I think everything is ebbing and flowing. And no matter what genre, if a movie has purity and sincerity and power, is going to flow to the top. You came close to doing another comic book thing in terms of Justice League Dark. And I know we've talked about Thor was something that you almost did or Ford did with for a time. Is there any impulse because, I mean, Thor Ragnarok is something. You've worked with Tom.

That's out there that they're looking for a director. Is that something that you could imagine? being interested in? I'm actually gravitating to the weirder stuff, man. Still, still, yeah. I feel really, I'm in a stage when, you know, if I was going to do pyrotechnics, they would need to be very intimately related

to who I am or what I like. Or your own universe in Packram, I guess, right? Yeah, Pac-Rim attracted me because we were going to do crazy stuff and attracts me if it gets green-lid. but I feel like... Getting weird. Good. Good. I encourage it.

Is there an actor you're dying to work with and one in particular that jumps out at you? Do you have... You know, having just seen Revenant and having seen Wolf of Wall Street, I happen to just admire Leon. He'll go for it. And he is a big connoisseur of the weird

and the kinky cinema, you know? Right. We have an affinity. for Todd Browning and Freaks. All right. Huge infinity. Is that true? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's a freaks fan. He's a freaks freak. Okay, good to know. Very big. And, you know, I've known his dad longer than I've known him. Yeah. But his dad used to be an underground publisher. I'm very involved in underground.

And all that history of comics, I can talk with Leo or his dad very easily with George, about Crumb, Richard Coeur. You know, Jack Jackson. Right. Yeah. I know he, for a while, he was developing, like, a Twilight Zone movie. I was intrigued by that to see what Leo would do with that. It would be interesting.

Yeah. Is there, you know, working with actors over the years, do you feel like that was something that took a while to, did you perfect a technique? Cronus versus Crimson Peak, do you think you're working with on set differently? Yes. Hopefully. I do, I do think, I do think you learn. I mean, I learned that brevity and intelligence in the direction, not complexity.

You don't want to come out to an actor in the middle of a shooting day with an intellectual concern. Right. You don't want to come and say, remember, this is the moment where the character is remembering when he was a child. I mean, you come in with an activity. It's more practical. Yes, you are thinking of this. You're doing that. And a verb, you know, a verb.

and communicate it in 10 words or less, 20 words if you must, but don't go into a conference with the actor. Give him tools, give him trust or give her trust and be with them. And the other thing that I find important is be next to the camera. Don't hide in video village. Don't be on video village. Unless it's a complex shot that doesn't allow me to be next to the... I try not to be in video village.

I'm with a little handheld monitor next to the camera. What happens when an actor is delivering a performance in just a different key, like a totally different kind of key than you need? Like, do you sort of accept it and sort of like, okay, we're going to explore this path? Like at this point, do you feel like you can shift them towards what you have in your mind or do you just sort of have to go with it? The trickiest thing is tone, you know, like if you're going to deliver a certain genre of dialogue

and the actor is making it earnest, it just sounds worse. So sometimes you need to make it lighter or to assume, you know, when you're delivering a blade two line, the virus is spreading exponentially, they will soon overrun the city. Whatever it is, you want it to be almost battered, and when they are delivering something,

for example, in Crimson Peak, is sort of a couple of notches overrun, into melodrama you want to stay in that and the way you correct that if I may suggest something is you don't it's like shooting in a shooting range if you're not reaching the target you don't take one step or one step back you take five step four to say try this other way yeah yeah yeah and then five flight adjustment you say no you go let's try this and you kind of break it you say try this much different or this much louder or something not not little steps because

Do you ever give a wine reading or is that something? No, I'm never done. I mean, I've never done it also with my accent. It would need to be treasure of Sierra Madre, you know. Have you ever had a fire an actor? Have you ever had the fire an actor? No, I don't think so. Okay.

Maybe I conveniently forget. Except for Ron Perlman on this one. Ron Perlman was going to be Tom Hiddleston. Who's the most underrated person on a set? on a set. Who doesn't get the credit they deserve that you are leaning on that makes or breaks?

That's easy. The worst job in a set is a focus puller. Yeah? Of course. It's just because if he does his job... If his job is right

99.9% of the time, nobody cares. If his job is wrong one time, he's a complete moron and do you want to kill him? You know, I think it's the toughest job in a set. It's also, people think it's metrics and it's technique.

Yeah. It's pure instinct. Yeah. It's pure instinct. This is a beautiful, beautiful craft. And I think it's the director's job to know what all these, what is at stake in all these little jobs? Because, and that's what I'm very thankful that I did about a dozen movies and about 20 episodes of TV before directing, working in different capacities. Because if you want to, any day be in charge of a movie set,

work on it because then you know what the people working for you are feeling you know when you're on the set of this one or or or on pack rim and these sets are ginormous and it's insane are you are you giddy just seeing what you've been able to kind of create and kind of like this is all here because of me not in an ego way but like that it's like it's a kid in a candy store that happened the first time i wrong walked in as hellway yeah and full costume and makeup I was like you know we've done half the job already I was super happy I remember on Pacific Rim when we built the compounds in a real gimbal to shake them and I got the first footage with the cranes going at them and it was a very

difficult technically very difficult movie and and I thought this is fantastic you know and it happens on Crimson Peak when we walk into the house absolutely I mean that I really wanted the house to be along with the wardrobe, to be an instrument of storytelling, to tell you who they are, and sort of evidence their state of mind by showing the house. Sure. And the moment we entered the house, I felt this is fantastic. Going into a slight spoiler territory, but there's a murder in this one that involves kind of like a bloody tear that is just a great image.

Is that something that's, like where did that come from? Do you recall? Well, I thought it was important to have a final. moment for that character that would be emotional. I tried different things. I had lines that didn't work. I had a moment between them that didn't work. And I finally said, you know what, let's put the tear. Let's do the tear because we were congesting the eye with blood. And I said, what if we have a little overflow, you know? Is there a scene in particular in Crimson Peak that is the one that brings a huge grin to your face? Yeah, I mean, there's many. I mean, I honestly, this is my third favorite film I'm done.

But I can tell you if I had to choose from the beauty, I would choose the waltz. The waltz scene in Crimson Peak is, I think, beautiful, gorgeous. And it kind of encapsulates a whole courtship in one single scene. And Tom is holding a candle, and it really never went out. It really just stayed up. That's how good a dancer he is. I'm just glad you convinced him to wear the pants for it

because his initial instinct, it wouldn't have worked. for the final product. The G-stream was wrong. But the other thing that I remember with, I mean, I love the murders. Yeah. But I think that the most sickening scene for me is when she's feeding Mia.

Yeah. When Lucille is feeding Mia some porridge, it was a really intense scene and a very violent scene without anything happening, you know? It's a truly great piece of work. I'm dying to see it again. and I will very soon. Thanks so much, as always, for stopping by, man.

You're one of the best out there, and it's a good pleasure to talk to you. See you later. Thanks, buddy. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh.

The Old West is an iconic. period of American history and full of legendary figures whose names still resonate today. Like Jesse James, Billy the Kid, and Butch and Sundance, Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, and Geronimo, Wyatt Earp, Batmasterson, and Bass Reeves, Buffalo Bill Cody, Wild Bill Hickok, the Texas Rangers, and many more. Hear all their stories on the Legends of the Old West podcast. We'll take you to Tombstone, Deadwood, and Dodge City, to the plains, mountains, and deserts for battles between the U.S. Army and Native American warriors to dark corners for the disaster of the Donner Party and shining summits for achievements like the Transcontinental Railroad.

We'll go back to the earliest days of explorers and mountain men and head up through notorious Pinkerton agents and gunmen like Tom Horn. Every episode features narrative writing and cinematic music, and there are hundreds of episodes available to binge. I'm Chris Wimmer. Find Legends of the Old West wherever you're listening now.